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California Sox
02-22-2007, 08:51 PM
Interesting article on Sox website tonight about Anderson.

http://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20070222&content_id=1812114&vkey=spt2007news&fext=.jsp&c_id=cws

Apparently Walker knew of BA's swing flaws in the spring but was hoping athleticism would overcome them. Also, Andersson has made some adjustments under the tutelage of Walker and Paulie. Konerko has certainly been helpful to Crede, so who knows?

I'm dubious but holding out hope. Still, does it make anyone else wonder why you'd trade Rowand and CYoung if you knew the replacement's swing was loaded with holes?

AJ Hellraiser
02-22-2007, 08:58 PM
When will some of you people finally get it? You trade Rowand because you get Thome in return... Rowand was not a good hitter, he was a fine defensive player but Anderson is better....

I'm sure KW figure Young and Anderson were basically a push at the time, so he was willing to part with whichever Arizona wanted for Vazquez...

oeo
02-22-2007, 08:58 PM
Interesting article on Sox website tonight about Anderson.

http://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20070222&content_id=1812114&vkey=spt2007news&fext=.jsp&c_id=cws

Apparently Walker knew of BA's swing flaws in the spring but was hoping athleticism would overcome them. Also, Andersson has made some adjustments under the tutelage of Walker and Paulie. Konerko has certainly been helpful to Crede, so who knows?

I'm dubious but holding out hope. Still, does it make anyone else wonder why you'd trade Rowand and CYoung if you knew the replacement's swing was loaded with holes?

When we got Jim Thome? No.

And what has Chris Young done at the big league level? Oh yeah, nada.

ondafarm
02-22-2007, 09:11 PM
Interesting article on Sox website tonight about Anderson.

http://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20070222&content_id=1812114&vkey=spt2007news&fext=.jsp&c_id=cws

Apparently Walker knew of BA's swing flaws in the spring but was hoping athleticism would overcome them. Also, Andersson has made some adjustments under the tutelage of Walker and Paulie. Konerko has certainly been helpful to Crede, so who knows?

I'm dubious but holding out hope. Still, does it make anyone else wonder why you'd trade Rowand and CYoung if you knew the replacement's swing was loaded with holes?

I think BA did make a lot of improvement during last season and he shouldn't be getting the rookie calls this year.

ST is the time to work on swing flaws and Walker should be working hard with him this ST. I assume he'll hit ~270 this year, especially if he learns to bunt for a hit.

rdivaldi
02-22-2007, 09:26 PM
When will some of you people finally get it? You trade Rowand because you get Thome in return... Rowand was not a good hitter, he was a fine defensive player but Anderson is better....

I'm sure KW figure Young and Anderson were basically a push at the time, so he was willing to part with whichever Arizona wanted for Vazquez...

Young and Anderson a "push"? In terms of what? Definitely not talent, everyone knew that at the time they were traded Young's upside was a lot higher than Anderson's. Yes maybe Chris will be a flop at the big league level, but I don't see BA ever becoming much more than a 4th outfielder. If Walker can correct the myriad of flaws in his swing and his approach at the plate, G-d bless him.

drewcifer
02-22-2007, 09:35 PM
When we got Jim Thome? No.

And what has Chris Young done at the big league level? Oh yeah, nada.

Thank you!

WhiteSox5187
02-22-2007, 09:45 PM
Well...hopefully the adjustment works. Hope he hits about .270

IndianWhiteSox
02-22-2007, 09:46 PM
Interesting article on Sox website tonight about Anderson.

http://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20070222&content_id=1812114&vkey=spt2007news&fext=.jsp&c_id=cws

Apparently Walker knew of BA's swing flaws in the spring but was hoping athleticism would overcome them. Also, Andersson has made some adjustments under the tutelage of Walker and Paulie. Konerko has certainly been helpful to Crede, so who knows?

I'm dubious but holding out hope. Still, does it make anyone else wonder why you'd trade Rowand and CYoung if you knew the replacement's swing was loaded with holes?


Walker knew of his swing flaw's but he didn't try to get them corrected?
:(::?:

CLR01
02-22-2007, 09:54 PM
Walker knew of his swing flaw's but he didn't try to get them corrected?
:(::?:


Anderson needed to make better corrections before Ozzie would let Walker make the corrections.

drewcifer
02-22-2007, 09:55 PM
Walker knew of his swing flaw's but he didn't try to get them corrected?
:(::?:

Don't get upset... I'd take that with a grain of salt.

Watching him last year, he just got flat out "worked" most of the time; I wouldn't call it swing flaw, but then again, I'm not a hitting coach.

He'll get it, and I think the comment was directed more so at his ability to recover from surprises in pitch selection and being able to adjust to keep himself at the plate.

Did you catch him at all last year? He basically hit whenever it didn't matter or it was super early in the count or favored him, failed otherwise.... He'll come around.

EMachine10
02-22-2007, 10:00 PM
rowand hijacks another thread....

and i still can't believe people write anderson off as an "at best 4th outfielder" after his rookie year.

give me a break.

schmitty9800
02-22-2007, 11:35 PM
BA improved and hit .257 in the second half. And he's a rookie. He should be fine, and if he struggles we've got the depth to make an adjustment.

balke
02-22-2007, 11:40 PM
Anderson was drafted to be our future starting CF, which he is. One season isn't what you judge him on. If anything he was thrown in early because the organization is so high on his upside. I think the thing with Brian is they know he's someone who's going to give his all, and at the very least is a solid defenseman out in CF. I think he can hit .300 at the major league level, but last season he didn't. I think things will be much different this season. At least .260, 20 Hr, 20 2b.

Friendly reminder, if we fired every rookie who hit like crap Joe Crede would be in Seattle.

I'm looking forward to what Brian does first, and what Floyd does second. It should all be fun to watch this season.

Hitmen77
02-22-2007, 11:44 PM
Young and Anderson a "push"? In terms of what? Definitely not talent, everyone knew that at the time they were traded Young's upside was a lot higher than Anderson's. Yes maybe Chris will be a flop at the big league level, but I don't see BA ever becoming much more than a 4th outfielder. If Walker can correct the myriad of flaws in his swing and his approach at the plate, G-d bless him.

Wow, listening to some people here, I would start to think that KW should just release BA right now.

rdivaldi
02-22-2007, 11:55 PM
Wow, listening to some people here, I would start to think that KW should just release BA right now.

I've never thought highly, always saw him as the answer to the trivia question, "Who did the White Sox draft ahead of All-Star OFs Ryan Sweeney and Chris Young in 2003?"

I've said it before and I'll say it again, you can't like every prospect/high draft choice. You gotta predict the busts with the gems.

rdivaldi
02-22-2007, 11:57 PM
and i still can't believe people write anderson off as an "at best 4th outfielder" after his rookie year.

give me a break.

Why not? Sometimes you look at a prospect/rookie and don't like what you see. I'm not writing him off, not even close. I'd much rather see him prove me and the other nay-sayers wrong.

chidonez
02-23-2007, 06:19 AM
When will some of you people finally get it? You trade Rowand because you get Thome in return... Rowand was not a good hitter, he was a fine defensive player but Anderson is better...

I'd even go a step further. BA is young, and very athletic. That much is not in dispute. I sincerely hope they have figured out his hitch. He has extraordinary potential, like Crede a few seasons ago. Pitching was our big flaw last season. Perhaps that's what we need to worry about.

soxfanatlanta
02-23-2007, 06:19 AM
I'd much rather see him prove me and the other nay-sayers wrong.

I would love to see that too, but he is so far in Ozzie's dog house it might not matter. We all know what happens to players Guillen does not like, right? Anderson is going to be on a very short leash this year with the Sweeny and Owens making progress. He will have to walk on water to stay in the bigs wearing a White Sox uniform.

Whitesox029
02-23-2007, 07:52 AM
Nothing bad can come of working with PK and Walk. Paulie has one of the sweetest swings I've ever seen on a right-handed hitter. Plus, he's a guy who's had similar troubles, and not even as a rookie. Remember 2003?

AuroraSoxFan
02-23-2007, 08:44 AM
This should be a very interesting year for him. I'm glad he took some huge initiative and I'm glad a lot of people are confident in him. Of course nobody is expecting him to hit 300 plus. Would just be nice if he could have a consistent plate approach and be more of an asset than a detriment. I just hope he gets a full green light. I hope Ozzie doesn't go too overboard with his righty/lefty vice versa obsession again. I can't see that doing anybody much good.

rdwj
02-23-2007, 08:55 AM
Walker knew of his swing flaw's but he didn't try to get them corrected?
:(::?:

You can't give him tons and tons of things to work on at the big league level. He's got to feel comfortable, then you give him little things to work on -one at a time. The offseason is the time for MAJOR corrections.

ode to veeck
02-23-2007, 08:57 AM
rowand hijacks another thread....

and i still can't believe people write anderson off as an "at best 4th outfielder" after his rookie year.

give me a break.

the crede bashers had to evolve into something

rdwj
02-23-2007, 09:07 AM
the crede bashers had to evolve into something

LOL - I guess that's true. Boy, those guys turned into an endangered species pretty quickly, huh?

ondafarm
02-23-2007, 09:08 AM
. . . I hope Ozzie doesn't go too overboard with his righty/lefty vice versa obsession again. I can't see that doing anybody much good.

One thing that makes that particularly hard on rookies is that they typically don't face a lot of lefties in the minors. Lefty minor league pitchers are the single most likely guys to get yanked to the majors. I worked with several at AA taught them a change and how to use it, rebuilt their confidence (not in that order) and lost them to the big-league team. It's the reason they keep asking me about coming back as a pitching coach.

ondafarm
02-23-2007, 09:08 AM
LOL - I guess that's true. Boy, those guys turned into an endangered species pretty quickly, huh?

And should be hunted to extinction.

California Sox
02-23-2007, 09:16 AM
I was never a Crede basher, but I am a bit worried about BA. It wasn't just his approach that was bad. He had a swing that was just plain ugly. I don't necessarily miss Rowand but I do think we'll regret trading CYoung. Hopefully, Anderson can raise his game to take the sting out of that trade. Working with Paulie can't hurt, because like people have said, he's got a really beautiful swing and is a real student of hitting. Plus, BA has been through this before. He had a horrible sophomore year at UofA, remade his swing in the fall, and had a huge junior year. Let's hope he can do it again.

WhiteSox5187
02-23-2007, 09:27 AM
First off, I would not recommend BA copy Paulie's swing. Paulie has a great swing for a power hitter, but it's very long. I'd like to see BA use Crede's short and quick approach. Secondly, what amazed me was that Walker said BA wasn't using his legs last year. This just amazes me, how could a major league hitter NOT use their legs? I played in high school (not well, I might add!) and even I knew that you had to use your legs. If BA was hitting .225 (and .257 after the All-Star break) using only his arms, look out! One he starts using those legs, we got an All-Star on our hands here!!! And I'm serious about this too.

rdivaldi
02-23-2007, 09:56 AM
First off, I would not recommend BA copy Paulie's swing. Paulie has a great swing for a power hitter, but it's very long.

You think PK's swing is long? I think he has a nice compact swing.

WhiteSox5187
02-23-2007, 09:58 AM
You think PK's swing is long? I think he has a nice compact swing.
I think it's a bit long, yea, but it obviously works for him and it is a GREAT power stroke.

mrwag
02-23-2007, 10:34 AM
I wouldn't say Paulie has a long swing.. That guy can turn on a fastball better than almost anyone you'll ever see.

Hitmen77
02-23-2007, 10:51 AM
I would love to see that too, but he is so far in Ozzie's dog house it might not matter. We all know what happens to players Guillen does not like, right?

How do you know? Did Ozzie tell you this? I don't remember seeing any articles that said that BA was so far in Ozzie's doghouse that he's pretty much a lost cause.

IMO, Ozzie hassles players for a good reason (most of the time) - to get them to improve. But, I think he's very forgiving of players who can build on past mistakes and improve.

102605
02-23-2007, 10:51 AM
And what has Chris Young done at the big league level? Oh yeah, nada.


How much of a chance has he had? Chris Young is going to be a very good MLB player.

soxfanatlanta
02-23-2007, 11:21 AM
How do you know? Did Ozzie tell you this? I don't remember seeing any articles that said that BA was so far in Ozzie's doghouse that he's pretty much a lost cause.

IMO, Ozzie hassles players for a good reason (most of the time) - to get them to improve. But, I think he's very forgiving of players who can build on past mistakes and improve.

You know what? I am wrong here; I just searched the net for a few minutes and found no truly negative comments from Guillen regarding Anderson's woes last year. My mistake.

I do maintain that BA is going to be on a very short leash this year; hopefully he will make the adjustments to not only survive, but produce solid numbers. For the record, I like him.

Whitesox029
02-23-2007, 11:32 AM
First off, I would not recommend BA copy Paulie's swing. Paulie has a great swing for a power hitter, but it's very long. I'd like to see BA use Crede's short and quick approach. Secondly, what amazed me was that Walker said BA wasn't using his legs last year. This just amazes me, how could a major league hitter NOT use their legs? I played in high school (not well, I might add!) and even I knew that you had to use your legs. If BA was hitting .225 (and .257 after the All-Star break) using only his arms, look out! One he starts using those legs, we got an All-Star on our hands here!!! And I'm serious about this too.
Crede's problem before he broke out was always a swing that was too long (and when he struggles it's because he's falling back into it). If Paulie helped Crede shorten up then he can help Brian.

caulfield12
02-23-2007, 11:40 AM
Crede's problem before he broke out was always a swing that was too long (and when he struggles it's because he's falling back into it). If Paulie helped Crede shorten up then he can help Brian.

Same issues with Rowand, Crede, Anderson and Dye....compact, good. Long and slow...bad.

True, in general, some players like Sheffield and a healthy Bonds make up for it with pure bat speed.

maurice
02-23-2007, 12:05 PM
If Anderson simply can manage to hit .260, he'll be a MLB starter for a long time. That's not much offense, but it's adequate when you're an elite defensive CF (or SS or 2B or C). Please resist the urge to compare his offensive numbers with corner OF or bad defensive CF.

Konerko has an amazingly short, quick swing for a righty HR hitter.

Jurr
02-23-2007, 12:30 PM
How much of a chance has he had? Chris Young is going to be a very good MLB player.
They said the same thing about Jeremy Reed. People were spewing vitriol at KW left and right when he gave up Reed for Garcia.

ondafarm
02-23-2007, 02:33 PM
If Anderson simply can manage to hit .260, he'll be a MLB starter for a long time. That's not much offense, but it's adequate when you're an elite defensive CF (or SS or 2B or C). Please resist the urge to compare his offensive numbers with corner OF or bad defensive CF.

Konerko has an amazingly short, quick swing for a righty HR hitter.

I would remove 2B from your list. Second-basemen must be productive offensive players. It is the lone position which really requires a balance of offense and defense.

balke
02-23-2007, 02:39 PM
I have a lot of faith in this player. I was hoping he'd be a future 3-4 hitter, but if he can't be that guy I think at least he can be a solid role player. The Sox have been so high on him, and he's been rated as such a high prospect and things were so easy for him up until last season.

A lot of players have rough first seasons just to progress naturally into studs 2 seasons later. I hope that's the case with BA.

IndianWhiteSox
02-23-2007, 03:12 PM
They said the same thing about Jeremy Reed. People were spewing vitriol at KW left and right when he gave up Reed for Garcia.

I don't think anyone said that Jeremy Reed would be the next Ken Griffey the way people are talking about Chris Young.

maurice
02-23-2007, 03:24 PM
I would remove 2B from your list. Second-basemen must be productive offensive players. It is the lone position which really requires a balance of offense and defense.

I don't disagree with you in principle, but plenty of poor offensive players start at 2B in MLB. Even in today's offensive age, .260 + very little else can land you regular starts. Heck, Aaron Miles got over 460 plate appearances for the World Champs while batting .263 + little power + little speed + questionable D. Half of the starting 2B in MLB last year had an OPS under .750. That's higher than SS, but about the same as C and actually a bit lower than CF.

maurice
02-23-2007, 03:27 PM
I don't think anyone said that Jeremy Reed would be the next Ken Griffey the way people are talking about Chris Young.

There used to be a lot of A's fans around here who thought that Reed would be the next great BB, high-OBP player.

rdivaldi
02-23-2007, 03:50 PM
I don't think anyone said that Jeremy Reed would be the next Ken Griffey the way people are talking about Chris Young.

I think that's because anyone that has seen Young play knows how superior in talent he is to Jeremy. That's not a guarantee that he's going to be great, but he's got the physical skills to be just that.

balke
02-23-2007, 03:52 PM
I don't think anyone said that Jeremy Reed would be the next Ken Griffey the way people are talking about Chris Young.


Does that mean he's going to be injured his entire career?


Chris Young right now looks like he can be a 20-20-20 player that hits .270 in the majors. Very good #'s. Sounds more like Mike Cameron than Ken Griffey Jr.

Kenny tried adding a stud pitcher in that deal and had to give up something for him. The organization had more faith in Anderson to at least play a strong defensive CF, and possibly grow power with his higher batting avg. in the minors. Considering we had Rowand and Anderson at the time, it wasn't a bad move. Vazquez and Anderson just have to perform and that trade will look great.

Why do I have a feeling this site is going to be CY v. BA all season? Both prospects have/had big upsides, and its a shame to have to lose either. Unfortunately good players don't come in exchange for bad players often.

gobears1987
02-23-2007, 03:52 PM
ST is the time to work on swing flaws and Walker should be working hard with him this ST. I assume he'll hit ~270 this year, especially if he learns to bunt for a hit.
I would be happy with .270. Combine that with his speed and glove and we have a pretty good CF.

Just see my sig.

Domeshot17
02-23-2007, 04:10 PM
If Anderson ends up hitting .260 hes a push with rowand and the Thome deal is a steal (it still is). People seem to forgot Konerko coming out and saying "If the Sox didn't get Jim Thome I would be playing in Anaheim right now".

Anderson has potential, although his potential isn't like Fields or Sweeney. Anderson has a chance to be a solid player, fine as our 9th hitter if he hits above .250. His problem will come when we have an OF of Him Sweeney and Fields. As of now, only one of them projects to be a 30 HR OF, and none really look like a lead off hitter. In a few years (unless we get a SS/2b who can lead off before then) It will come down to Anderson OR Sweeney (as I think Sweeney will end up being a Fine OF, either in Center or the corners). This may change, Sweeney may find that power stroke people always thought was coming, we shall see.

And whoever said Konerko has a long swing, Konerko has one of the most fundamentally sound swings in the Game. Needed a few extra bucks, so I helped a high school team during their winter work outs as a hitting instructor. We spent a few nights breaking down the swings of hitters. Konerko has the IDEAL, Short to the Ball, LONG through it approach. Long isn't bad as long as it is at the end. He keeps his hands inside the baseball, is quick to the ball and long through it, which is where he gets his power.

In my opinion, Konerko has the 2nd best swing on the Sox next to AJ. When AJ is on, he doesn't generate the power he should with his size, but he has a beautiful use the field and rip the gaps swing. But, being a lefty, would not be a great help to Anderson. If Anderson really is working with PK, he is in good hands.

TDog
02-23-2007, 06:46 PM
Walker knew of his swing flaw's but he didn't try to get them corrected?
:(::?:


As I understand it, it was more Anderson not working with Walker than Walker not working with Anderson.

WhiteSox5187
02-23-2007, 08:19 PM
As I understand it, it was more Anderson not working with Walker than Walker not working with Anderson.
Oh that's bad. If a rookie who wasn't hitting is weight isn't listening to the batting coach...oh if that was the case he belonged in Ozzie's doghouse.

Grzegorz
02-23-2007, 09:26 PM
Anderson has potential, although his potential isn't like Fields or Sweeney.

I just do not know how you can make a statement like this. Potential, when measured in human beings, is not quantifiable.

IndianWhiteSox
02-23-2007, 10:19 PM
I just do not know how you can make a statement like this. Potential, when measured in human beings, is not quantifiable.

People talk more highly of Fields and Sweeney than they do of BA. I mean, I can see why with the fact of Fields and being potential 30-30 ballplayers and Anderson not getting that same respect.

Daver
02-23-2007, 10:42 PM
People talk more highly of Fields and Sweeney than they do of BA. I mean, I can see why with the fact of Fields and being potential 30-30 ballplayers and Anderson not getting that same respect.

You cannot judge a baseball player by offense alone, unless he is a DH, Fields is not a sound defensive player at his position.

IndianWhiteSox
02-23-2007, 10:58 PM
You cannot judge a baseball player by offense alone, unless he is a DH, Fields is not a sound defensive player at his position.

I know that, and I also know that BA is the best defensive CF in all of baseball. But the thing is no one talks up BA the way they do Fields,who will also end up playing good D after another season or two in the minors and Sweeney who already plays good D, along with their offensive potential.

ondafarm
02-23-2007, 11:30 PM
As I understand it, it was more Anderson not working with Walker than Walker not working with Anderson.


I seriously doubt that. If you are in a slump, especially one for half the season, you will work with your hitting coach.

Daver
02-23-2007, 11:32 PM
I seriously doubt that. If you are in a slump, especially one for half the season, you will work with your hitting coach.

The question is, is the hitting coach capable of helping the player, in my opinion, Walker is not.

ondafarm
02-23-2007, 11:42 PM
The question is, is the hitting coach capable of helping the player, in my opinion, Walker is not.

That's open to debate, but when I was in a slump, which was hard to tell as a .242 hitter, even a bad hitting instructor may get you back on track.

Under the word desperate is a picture of a hitter on a three month slump.

Brian26
02-23-2007, 11:43 PM
I know that, and I also know that BA is the best defensive CF in all of baseball.

BA is a great defensive centerfielder, but it's ludicrous to deem him the best CF in baseball right now. I can understand why people are trying to defend him, but let's not get silly.

Brian26
02-23-2007, 11:49 PM
The question is, is the hitting coach capable of helping the player, in my opinion, Walker is not.

I'm not sure how to interpret this.

Is this an indictment of Walker as a bad hitting coach in general?

Or are you saying Walker can help other people, but just not Anderson?

IndianWhiteSox
02-24-2007, 05:12 AM
I know that, and I also know that BA is the best defensive CF in all of baseball.

BA is a great defensive centerfielder, but it's ludicrous to deem him the best CF in baseball right now. I can understand why people are trying to defend him, but let's not get silly.

The key words there Brian are best defensive CF, not best overall CF. There's a big difference in that statement. You know, if Uribe can get his act together and become the #2 hitter he was in '04, Anderson's hitting woes might not even be an issue at this point.
:angry:

caulfield12
02-24-2007, 07:24 AM
See Sosa/Hrniak...

caulfield12
02-24-2007, 07:25 AM
The key words there Brian are best defensive CF, not best overall CF. There's a big difference in that statement. You know, if Uribe can get his act together and become the #2 hitter he was in '04, Anderson's hitting woes might not even be an issue at this point.
:angry:

He's not quite to that level yet.

Top 5, sure.

Brian26
02-24-2007, 09:46 AM
The key words there Brian are best defensive CF, not best overall CF. There's a big difference in that statement.

I understood what you wrote the first time. It is insane to label Anderson as the best defensive CF in baseball.

IndianWhiteSox
02-24-2007, 09:49 AM
I understood what you wrote the first time. It is insane to label Anderson as the best defensive CF in baseball.

Brian, who would you rather have in CF strictly for defensive purposes?

ondafarm
02-24-2007, 09:57 AM
I understood what you wrote the first time. It is insane to label Anderson as the best defensive CF in baseball.

I certainly wouldn't call it insane.

Brian26
02-24-2007, 10:00 AM
Brian, who would you rather have in CF strictly for defensive purposes?

This topic has been discussed in-depth numerous times here before you joined a month ago. Do a search to find your answer. I'll throw Wells, Hunter, Edmonds and Jones out there to refresh your memory.

It's insane to call a guy who played about half a season last year in CF as the best defensive CF in all of MLB.

ondafarm
02-24-2007, 10:03 AM
This topic has been discussed in-depth numerous times here before you joined a month ago. Do a search to find your answer. I'll throw Wells, Hunter, Edmonds and Jones out there to refresh your memory.

It's insane to call a guy who played about half a season last year in CF as the best defensive CF in all of MLB.

BA is better than any of those guys in terms of defense.

Brian26
02-24-2007, 10:04 AM
I certainly wouldn't call it insane.

I would, especially with alll of the mental mistakes he made last year (whether it was throwing to the wrong base or running into Dye or Pods on routine flyballs that they were camped under).

Brian26
02-24-2007, 10:09 AM
BA is better than any of those guys in terms of defense.

This always turns into a subjective debate. People who defend BA are basing their comments on his potential or what they've heard other people say. Anybody who saw him consistently last year saw a guy who has tools and potential but is still unpolished, makes numerous mental mistakes, and doesn't have complete confidence in himself yet. There's no way a guy with these faults can be labeled the best CF in baseball.

Give me specific reasoning why he's better than Vernon Wells or Torri Hunter.

IndianWhiteSox
02-24-2007, 10:17 AM
This always turns into a subjective debate. People who defend BA are basing their comments on his potential or what they've heard other people say. Anybody who saw him consistently last year saw a guy who has tools and potential but is still unpolished, makes numerous mental mistakes, and doesn't have complete confidence in himself yet. There's no way a guy with these faults can be labeled the best CF in baseball.

Give me specific reasoning why he's better than Vernon Wells or Torri Hunter.

In overall polished talent, would I rather have Vernon Wells or Torii Hunter? Yes, I would take them in a heartbeat, but that's not the question at hand. The question who is the best defensive CF in the game today? As of right now, my answer is Brian Anderson, because every time I see him play, he makes CF look so easy and he covers more ground than any CF in baseball. Well, I guess we'll agree to disagree and by the way it's not like I'm the biggest Anderson supporter in the world and I actually have an objective opinion of him. But from what I've seen of his talent, he also can be something special in the three years and I would rather have him than anyone else covering CF.

Brian26
02-24-2007, 10:24 AM
But from what I've seen of his talent, he also can be something special in the three years and I would rather have him than anyone else covering CF.

Maybe he will be the best CF in three years, but you said he IS the best CF now, which he is not.

ondafarm
02-24-2007, 10:30 AM
This always turns into a subjective debate. People who defend BA are basing their comments on his potential or what they've heard other people say. Anybody who saw him consistently last year saw a guy who has tools and potential but is still unpolished, makes numerous mental mistakes, and doesn't have complete confidence in himself yet. There's no way a guy with these faults can be labeled the best CF in baseball.

Give me specific reasoning why he's better than Vernon Wells or Torri Hunter.

His range factor, which is number of outs recorded per nine innings played, was considerably above both of those guys.

I watched him all year, and as a former professional player, I have to say I saw him make only a smattering of mental mistakes.

As to running into Pods or Dye when they are camped under the ball, this clearly illustrates that you know nothing of outfield play. All balls which he can get to belong to the CF. If two outfielders can make a play, the corner guy ALWAYS gives way to the CF. That mental mistake is yours.

Brian26
02-24-2007, 10:34 AM
As to running into Pods or Dye when they are camped under the ball, this clearly illustrates that you know nothing of outfield play. All balls which he can get to belong to the CF. If two outfielders can make a play, the corner guy ALWAYS gives way to the CF. That mental mistake is yours.

This clearly indicates that you didn't see the games I'm talking about. When Dye is standing under a flyball, flat-footed, ready to catch it in straight away rightfield (slightly shaded to center) with nobody on base, there's no reason for Anderson to come barreling over and bump into him.

IndianWhiteSox
02-24-2007, 11:05 AM
Maybe he will be the best CF in three years, but you said he IS the best CF now, which he is not.

I said he is the best defensive CF today.

caulfield12
02-24-2007, 11:33 AM
His range factor, which is number of outs recorded per nine innings played, was considerably above both of those guys.

I watched him all year, and as a former professional player, I have to say I saw him make only a smattering of mental mistakes.

As to running into Pods or Dye when they are camped under the ball, this clearly illustrates that you know nothing of outfield play. All balls which he can get to belong to the CF. If two outfielders can make a play, the corner guy ALWAYS gives way to the CF. That mental mistake is yours.

There were definitely some communication issues out there last year that you don't see as much with veteran outfielders.

With a SS like Uribe....and 2B such as Harris and Durham that liked to go out into the OF, you need some that is unquestionably the captain of the team, that the infielders will trust will get to that ball. Part of the problem is the infielders needed to cover a lot of ground to make up for Mackowiak's horrid defense, so they would get caught "in-between" with Anderson sometimes.

And it appeared he wasn't vocal enough calling off the LF and RF a number of times, along with some throwing and mental mistakes. He has a strong arm for CF, but I would hardly call it a great arm either. He's certainly not someone you FEAR throwing you out, like a Guerrero or Larry Walker. (I know, most of the great arms are in RF, not CF).

He has very good range, because he has instincts and gets good reads and takes the correct route almost every time...but I would hardly call him "quick" or "explosive" either. The best comparison I can think of is Devon White, who would just look like he was effortlessly gliding out there, in fact, he was often criticized for looking so nonchalant he was accused of coasting when he was actually at or close to full speed with his long strides.

ondafarm
02-24-2007, 11:37 AM
This clearly indicates that you didn't see the games I'm talking about. When Dye is standing under a flyball, flat-footed, ready to catch it in straight away rightfield (slightly shaded to center) with nobody on base, there's no reason for Anderson to come barreling over and bump into him.

And you obviously can't read. THE CENTERFIELDER TAKES ALL BALLS HE CAN GET TO. In that situation that is Dye's mistake for not giving ground and not calling loudly and clearly enough for BA to know he had a clean play.

Daver
02-24-2007, 11:38 AM
I'm not sure how to interpret this.

Is this an indictment of Walker as a bad hitting coach in general?

Or are you saying Walker can help other people, but just not Anderson?

Well, show me one young hitter on the Sox that Walker has helped. He does a fine job of giving help to established hitters, but when it comes to guys learning to hit at the MLB level, he fails.

Look at the 2000 team, which had a lot of young talent, and the job they did with Von Joshua as the hitting coach, and compare with any young hitter Walker has worked with.

IndianWhiteSox
02-24-2007, 11:50 AM
Well, show me one young hitter on the Sox that Walker has helped. He does a fine job of giving help to established hitters, but when it comes to guys learning to hit at the MLB level, he fails.

Look at the 2000 team, which had a lot of young talent, and the job they did with Von Joshua as the hitting coach, and compare with any young hitter Walker has worked with.

But even on the 2000 team you had 6 or 7 guys who were established hitters such as, The Big Hurt, PK, Maggs, El Caballo, Ray Ray, Valenstache, and Johnson. So I'm not sure about Von Joshua being that great of a hitting coach. If anything, a really good option out there might be Franks old hitting instructor Walt Hriniak. Uribe seemed to improve at the end of 2005 when he started working with him.

caulfield12
02-24-2007, 11:55 AM
Well, show me one young hitter on the Sox that Walker has helped. He does a fine job of giving help to established hitters, but when it comes to guys learning to hit at the MLB level, he fails.

Look at the 2000 team, which had a lot of young talent, and the job they did with Von Joshua as the hitting coach, and compare with any young hitter Walker has worked with.

Rowand and Crede.

Konerko went through his hitting slump and came out of it with Greg in 2003. In fact, his batting average has gone up 3 years in a row. Dye became one of the best RF'ers in MLB as a hitter over the last 2 seasons. Thomas had a resurgence in 04 and 05 (when healthy).

Uribe was seen as a last shot, desperation/change of scenery move and he really clicked with Walker until last season.

There are many to blame for the Borchard fiasco, not just Walker. Valentin slumped in 03 and 04.

CLR01
02-24-2007, 12:08 PM
Uribe seemed to improve at the end of 2005 when he started working with him.

Wasn't it Walt Hriniak who was working with him at the request of Thomas?

Brian26
02-24-2007, 12:28 PM
And you obviously can't read. THE CENTERFIELDER TAKES ALL BALLS HE CAN GET TO. In that situation that is Dye's mistake for not giving ground and not calling loudly and clearly enough for BA to know he had a clean play.

I can read just fine, thank you. The centerfielder may be able to get to a ball in left or right, but that doesn't mean he should go barreling into the other outfielders like a runaway train without any presence of mind of his location. There were balls Dye and Pods were camped under that BA had no business going after. Neither you nor I know who was calling who off verbally (they were sometimes both waving each other off) as we're not on the field and can't hear the audio. All we can go by is basic positioning, and when a corner outfielder is camped under a ball waiting for it to come down, the CF has to back off. Now if you're talking about men on base and trying to get an angle on a throw, I'll agree with you. But that wasn't the case.

Brian26
02-24-2007, 12:31 PM
Well, show me one young hitter on the Sox that Walker has helped. He does a fine job of giving help to established hitters, but when it comes to guys learning to hit at the MLB level, he fails.

Look at the 2000 team, which had a lot of young talent, and the job they did with Von Joshua as the hitting coach, and compare with any young hitter Walker has worked with.

I'm not disagreeing with you. I was just curious if you were saying Walker isn't capable of helping Anderson, or if Anderson isn't capable of learning from Walker. Those are two completely different ways of looking at it.

I can't think of a young guy Walker has really helped. You could argue Crede, but he struggled for a long time after Walker was already here. I know Konerko credits all of his success '04-'06 to Walker.

Brian26
02-24-2007, 12:33 PM
But even on the 2000 team you had 6 or 7 guys who were established hitters such as, The Big Hurt, PK, Maggs, El Caballo, Ray Ray, Valenstache, and Johnson.

I would hardly label the 2000 versions of PK, Mags, Lee and Mark Johnson as established hitters.

IndianWhiteSox
02-24-2007, 12:36 PM
I would hardly label the 2000 versions of PK, Mags, Lee and Mark Johnson as established hitters.

Charles Johnson not Mark Johnson

Brian26
02-24-2007, 12:38 PM
Charles Johnson not Mark Johnson

Charles Johnson- The guy they traded for at the July 31 dealine and only played on the team for two of the sixth months of the season. How could I have made that mistake.

ondafarm
02-24-2007, 01:47 PM
Rowand and Crede.

Rowand was struggling got sent down and worked hard with the AAA hitting instructor, caught on fire and came back to Chicago still on a streak.

I was in North Carolina then and watching Charlotte pretty closely.

maurice
02-26-2007, 12:34 PM
Anderson is at least arguably the best defensive CF in MLB. Nobody is significantly better than him. I'm certainly not basing my opinion on what I "heard other people say." I praised his defense before 95% of WSI posters ever saw him play. He obbiously is less established than the veteran guys, but that's not the issue.

Most CF play much deeper than Anderson and let many more balls fall in front of them. Hunter is an obvious exmaple of this. If you watch Hunter as closely as you watch Anderson, you also will see more mistakes. (There was a rather glaring example in the playoffs last year, and it was much worse than anything Anderson did in the field all year.) Hunter is famous for making amazing leaping catches over the wall, but he takes much worse routes when the ball is hit in front of him or toward the gap. Anderson has great routes + quick jumps in all directions. His range coming in and in the gaps is much greater than Hunter, which brings us to the next issue.

Anderson didn't run into anybody that was "camped under a ball." The handful of collisions and near-collisions occurred when 2 players were going for a ball, Anderson tried to call them off, and the other player failed to yield to the CF, who has the right-of-way. Now that he's not a rookie, perhaps Dye, Pods, Uribe, etc. will get the heck out of the way when the CF calls them off . . . just like they're supposed to do. Rowand went through the same thing. The veterans 2nd-guessed Rowand and ignored him when he called them off (especially Ordonez), but it stopped after he became an established MLB player.

caulfield12
02-26-2007, 12:42 PM
Anderson is at least arguably the best defensive CF in MLB. Nobody is significantly better than him. I'm certainly not basing my opinion on what I "heard other people say." I praised his defense before 95% of WSI posters ever saw him play. He obbiously is less established than the veteran guys, but that's not the issue.

Most CF play much deeper than Anderson and let many more balls fall in front of them. Hunter is an obvious exmaple of this. If you watch Hunter as closely as you watch Anderson, you also will see more mistakes. (There was a rather glaring example in the playoffs last year, and it was much worse than anything Anderson did in the field all year.) Hunter is famous for making amazing leaping catches over the wall, but he takes much worse routes when the ball is hit in front of him or toward the gap. Anderson has great routes + quick jumps in all directions. His range coming in and in the gaps is much greater than Hunter, which brings us to the next issue.

Anderson didn't run into anybody that was "camped under a ball." The handful of collisions and near-collisions occurred when 2 players were going for a ball, Anderson tried to call them off, and the other player failed to yield to the CF, who has the right-of-way. Now that he's not a rookie, perhaps Dye, Pods, Uribe, etc. will get the heck out of the way when the CF calls them off . . . just like they're supposed to do. Rowand went through the same thing. The veterans 2nd-guessed Rowand and ignored him when he called them off (especially Ordonez), but it stopped after he became an established MLB player.

I'll agree with this, pretty much, except for the fact that Hunter was operating at 75% because of all his injuries. I must have seen about 15 balls that Hunter normally would have gotten to be he came up just short, including a couple of huge play in the post-season.

But Torii Hunter at age 26-28, I would take him over Anderson. He can change a game around (I remember him robbing Carlos Lee once or the All-Star game) more dramatically, for what it's worth. Anderson probably makes a few MORE plays, but I think the "big plays" Hunter makes have more of an impact.

Grzegorz
02-26-2007, 01:48 PM
I'll agree with this, pretty much, except for the fact that Hunter was operating at 75% because of all his injuries. I must have seen about 15 balls that Hunter normally would have gotten to be he came up just short, including a couple of huge play in the post-season.

But Torii Hunter at age 26-28, I would take him over Anderson. He can change a game around (I remember him robbing Carlos Lee once or the All-Star game) more dramatically, for what it's worth. Anderson probably makes a few MORE plays, but I think the "big plays" Hunter makes have more of an impact.

Give me a CF'er with the tools to play in to take away the Texas Leaguers. To me it is easier to go back on a ball then to come in.

Madscout
02-26-2007, 02:54 PM
Give me a CF'er with the tools to play in to take away the Texas Leaguers. To me it is easier to go back on a ball then to come in.

Uh, have you ever played CF? It is always easier to run forward than to run back. The ball is harder to read if it is behind you. Hard to turn your head to see the ball. Unlike video games, real people run slower when they have to turn thier head. You always want the ball in front of you, cause if it is behind you, you just gave up a double. Tori Hunter can attest to this.

ondafarm
02-26-2007, 02:54 PM
. . . Anderson probably makes a few MORE plays, but I think the "big plays" Hunter makes have more of an impact.

Hunter makes those spectacular over the fence plays but lets far more balls drop in front of him for basehits.

Here are the numbers as if these four guys each played 1000 innings last year (just over 111 full games):

Anderson would have 319 put outs
Sizemore would have had 301 put outs
Granderson would have had 296 put outs
Hunter would have had 284 put outs.

That is 35 more balls gotten to by Anderson than Hunter. That's 12% more. That is a huge number more put outs. Also keep in mind that Hunter plays on a turf surface where far more ground balls go thru as singles. If you depress the infielders, the outfielders defense looks better than it should.

Hunter doesn't hold a candle to BA in outfield defense.

caulfield12
02-26-2007, 03:47 PM
Hunter makes those spectacular over the fence plays but lets far more balls drop in front of him for basehits.

Here are the numbers as if these four guys each played 1000 innings last year (just over 111 full games):

Anderson would have 319 put outs
Sizemore would have had 301 put outs
Granderson would have had 296 put outs
Hunter would have had 284 put outs.

That is 35 more balls gotten to by Anderson than Hunter. That's 12% more. That is a huge number more put outs. Also keep in mind that Hunter plays on a turf surface where far more ground balls go thru as singles. If you depress the infielders, the outfielders defense looks better than it should.

Hunter doesn't hold a candle to BA in outfield defense.

I'm not debating last year, but the years when Hunter was healthy. Hunter wasn't even in the top half of MLB CFers after his injury.

Are you correcting for the differences in pitching staffs (more opportunities for the White Sox because the opposing team had more AB's)? The size of the outfield that each of these guys have to cover?

Would the numbers be the same if you ran them from 2000-2005 for Hunter (just the average season) and compared them to BA again?

caulfield12
02-26-2007, 04:01 PM
Hunter makes those spectacular over the fence plays but lets far more balls drop in front of him for basehits.

Here are the numbers as if these four guys each played 1000 innings last year (just over 111 full games):

Anderson would have 319 put outs
Sizemore would have had 301 put outs
Granderson would have had 296 put outs
Hunter would have had 284 put outs.

That is 35 more balls gotten to by Anderson than Hunter. That's 12% more. That is a huge number more put outs. Also keep in mind that Hunter plays on a turf surface where far more ground balls go thru as singles. If you depress the infielders, the outfielders defense looks better than it should.

Hunter doesn't hold a candle to BA in outfield defense.

Anderson's Zone Rating last year was .883. Hunter, when he was healthy, was at .904 in 2001 and .924 in 2003, when he was healthy.

Just for comparison...

B. Anderson (2006) PO/INN=310/966 or .321
Torii Hunter (01-05) PO/INN=1836/5742 or .320
Andruw Jones (02-06) PO/INN=1926/6716 or .287

Andruw Jones was unquestionably the best CFer in baseball from 1996-1999, when he was routinely at a Zone Rating of .900 or higher. Ever since 2000, he's been going downhill.

caulfield12
02-26-2007, 04:10 PM
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/stats/fielding?seasonType=2&sortOrder=true&split=84&groupId=9&season=2006&qualified=null&sortColumn=zoneRating

By all statistical measures, Corey Patterson was the best CFer in baseball last season.

Now you can argue Beltran was better and it's 50/50 with at least five outfielders between Anderson and Patterson on this list.

caulfield12
02-26-2007, 04:16 PM
Darin Erstad has ZR's of .920, .934 and .930 his last three seasons playing CF in Anaheim.

In 2002 and 2003, he had 656 PO's in 1787 INNINGS, .367. Statistically, he got to more balls than T. Hunter, Brian Anderson and Andruw Jones, and it wasn't even close.

Rob Mackowiak (2006) .807 ZR and 119 PO/436 IP=.273

That would be 94 balls that Erstad would have gotten to that Mackowiak wouldn't have, based on 2002 and 2003 stats.

Jim Edmonds has only had a Zone Rating above .900 twice in his career, in 1996 and 2003.

ondafarm
02-26-2007, 04:23 PM
I'm not debating last year, but the years when Hunter was healthy. Hunter wasn't even in the top half of MLB CFers after his injury.

Are you correcting for the differences in pitching staffs (more opportunities for the White Sox because the opposing team had more AB's)? The size of the outfield that each of these guys have to cover?

Would the numbers be the same if you ran them from 2000-2005 for Hunter (just the average season) and compared them to BA again?

Since you are taking pains to impugn my numbers, I've looked up a few more.

In 06, the Sox did give up 44 more hits in ten more innings, so that would slightly favor BA. On the other hand, in the previous three years, the Twins gave up more hits, 66 more in 11 fewer innings in 05, 18 more in 44 more innings in 04 and 162 more hits given up in 31 more innings in 2003. 2003 was the only year in the previous four that Hunter posted a better range factor than BA's 2006 number and that is clearly explained by far more hits given up by the Twins than the Sox.

In other words, the Twins pitching staff gives more opportunities to Hunter to field the ball, the Twins infield gives more opportunities to field the ball to Hunter and the bigger park area gives more opportunities to Hunter to field the ball. And yet BA's numbers are better.

Hunter has posted the following range factors: 2.56 in 06, 2.51 in 05, 2.59 in 04 and 2.98 in 03. It is laughable to say that Hunter is a better defensive center fielder than BA. Granted, Hunter looks spectacular robbing homers, but the Texas leaguers he doesn't get to that BA does cost a lot more than that.

ondafarm
02-26-2007, 04:35 PM
Anderson's Zone Rating last year was .883. Hunter, when he was healthy, was at .904 in 2001 and .924 in 2003, when he was healthy...

It wasn't just he was healthy, it was when the Twins gave up far more hits than the White Sox and when he was playing with a porous infield, which gave him even more advantages. His ZR in 04, when healthy was .890 and his ZR in 05, when healthy, .891.

BA's, in a very difficult rookie year for him was .883.

caulfield12
02-26-2007, 06:12 PM
Using those same statistics (RF, Zone Rating and PO/inning), you could argue the 2002 and 2003 version of Erstad was a far better outfielder than either Anderson or Hunter.

RockyMtnSoxFan
02-26-2007, 08:59 PM
In 06, the Sox did give up 44 more hits in ten more innings, so that would slightly favor BA. On the other hand, in the previous three years, the Twins gave up more hits, 66 more in 11 fewer innings in 05, 18 more in 44 more innings in 04 and 162 more hits given up in 31 more innings in 2003. 2003 was the only year in the previous four that Hunter posted a better range factor than BA's 2006 number and that is clearly explained by far more hits given up by the Twins than the Sox.

Why should the number of hits given up by the respective pitching staffs affect the zone ratings? ZR is a percentage, just like batting average, so the number of opportunities has no impact on the value. A player with 200 hits in 600 ABs has the same average as one with 100 hits in 300 ABs.

Because it is so difficult to measure fielding performance statistically, perhaps a better measurement is to compare each player's rank in various statistical categories. For example, if you add the rankings for RF, ZR, FPCT, and A, and compare Beltran, Patterson, and Anderson you get scores of 17, 20, and 26 respectively. Now, you can play around with the numbers however you want by weighting different categories differently, but the point is that you need to broaden the scope beyond one statistical category before declaring one person to be the best defender at a position.

Obviously, quantifying defense has always been a problem, and there are lots of articles out there about it. I think it is sufficient to say that Anderson is very good, probably among the top 10% at his position.

Grzegorz
02-26-2007, 09:23 PM
Uh, have you ever played CF? It is always easier to run forward than to run back. The ball is harder to read if it is behind you. Hard to turn your head to see the ball.

I've played center field in hard ball and 16" softball. To me it was much easier going back on the ball.

The problem I had coming in was that when my glove/hands dropped below chest level I found the play exponentially harder to make.

The key is to get a great jump, a solid read, and having closing speed.

Save McCuddy's
02-26-2007, 10:43 PM
Friendly reminder, if we fired every rookie who hit like crap Joe Crede would be in Seattle.

Which rookie year --2002 when he hit .285 with 12 HR in 200 AB's and a .515 SLG% or his first full year in 2003 with a .261 BA 19 HR and 75 RBI? How are Crede and BA even comparable?

Joe came up as the reigning Minor League Player of the year and unfortunately suffered from the extreme expectations that come from that pedigree. Not to crown my ass, but I was not among the chorus of malcontents with Crede. Nor would I be with BA if he averaged .248 with 20HR and 66 RBI over his first 3 seasons in the bigs. So please, don't compare the angst that some have with BA to the less credible impatience that some had with Joe.

California Sox
02-26-2007, 11:24 PM
Two solid pages of zone ratings. I cannot wait for the actual games to begin.

But onto BA's offensive adjustments. Two hits in the intersquad game, Cubune said he looked good doing it. Absolutely meaningless, I know, but I desperately want to believe he's going to hit .260 12 60. With his defense, that's a player who can contribute to a winning team.

ondafarm
02-27-2007, 01:03 AM
Two solid pages of zone ratings. I cannot wait for the actual games to begin.

Sorry about that. BA is a fine defensive center fielder but doesn't make the flashy plays, he just covers lots of ground and looks like he's not exerting himself doing it.

But onto BA's offensive adjustments. Two hits in the intersquad game, Cubune said he looked good doing it. Absolutely meaningless, I know, but I desperately want to believe he's going to hit .260 12 60. With his defense, that's a player who can contribute to a winning team.

For a guy who had a sub-par offensive past season but of whom much more is expected, I think starting off making solid contact in Arizona is important. Or at least, it's a better sign than if he was waving ineptly at the ball.

caulfield12
02-27-2007, 08:54 AM
http://www.suntimes.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/274090,CST-SPT-sox27.article

ode to veeck
02-27-2007, 09:15 AM
The key is to get a great jump, a solid read, and having closing speed.

In addition to the read, speed, and the close, you really have to get down to the ball at the point of the catch, either by reaching with your arm or hitting a hard slide just as you get to the dropping ball. It's a tough play and you have to also be a good judge able to make the last second decision whether you're gonna get there or not, because you can't afford any sizable fraction of balls to get through; you have to catch or stop almost every one you make the choice to go down for.

Madscout
02-27-2007, 11:04 AM
I've played center field in hard ball and 16" softball. To me it was much easier going back on the ball.

The problem I had coming in was that when my glove/hands dropped below chest level I found the play exponentially harder to make.

The key is to get a great jump, a solid read, and having closing speed.

That's softball, not baseball. A baseball reads different. It flies different. A softball curves a lot more on line drives, and the style usually played by most mens groups is that it is usually more of a pop fly. On a baseball, line drives fly a lot faster and strighter. IT is easier to get a read, especially if you are playing with those floresent green or pink softballs. Regardless, you see it a lot faster off the bat. Depending on how far back it is, you are usually taught to turn and run on the far back ones, which means you have to turn your head. You see the softball a lot quicker.

Iguana775
02-27-2007, 12:01 PM
Darin Erstad has ZR's of .920, .934 and .930 his last three seasons playing CF in Anaheim.

In 2002 and 2003, he had 656 PO's in 1787 INNINGS, .367. Statistically, he got to more balls than T. Hunter, Brian Anderson and Andruw Jones, and it wasn't even close.

Rob Mackowiak (2006) .807 ZR and 119 PO/436 IP=.273

That would be 94 balls that Erstad would have gotten to that Mackowiak wouldn't have, based on 2002 and 2003 stats.

Jim Edmonds has only had a Zone Rating above .900 twice in his career, in 1996 and 2003.



And some thought I was stupid for thinking that Mac single handedly lost the Sox at least 4 or 5 games. Mac was HORRIBLE in CF. there were many times when he let a ball drop that any AVERAGE CF would have gotten to that lead to big innings for the opponent.

That's my story and I'm sticking to it. :gulp: :bandance:

itsjustinf
02-27-2007, 12:35 PM
Good to hear that he's not only fixing things, but taking the competition for CF in stride. I'm still confident that BA can be a very solid big league ballplayer.

maurice
02-27-2007, 01:02 PM
Anderson rocketed through the Sox system. At this point, he has only 399 MLB ABs and 936 minor league ABs (plus about 500 & some college ABs). He struggled early in MLB and then got better, despite being jerked in and out of the lineup randomly during his rookie season. If Ozzie just sticks him in the lineup and leaves him alone, he probably will improve steadily.

The Sox brought Crede along very slowly. He kept repeating levels, resulting in 2,761 minor-league ABs. The Sox kept him in the MLB lineup, even as he declined over his 1st 3 years, before fixing his swing and turning things around.

It's not asking too much to expect the Sox to show a fraction of that patience with Anderson.

I think it is sufficient to say that Anderson is very good, probably among the top 10% at his position.

This actually is pretty close to the folks who rate him as arguably #1. Assuming that you're talking about starting CF in MLB, top 10% puts Anderson in the top 3.

caulfield12
02-27-2007, 02:27 PM
Shouldn't we expect a faster ascent out of a player who left college after his junior year than a high schooler like Crede?

Some would say we've "rushed" Sweeney even more, based on his relative lack of experience in Iowa due to the long winters, although he did play quite a bit of American Legion/AAU ball around the country.

ondafarm
02-27-2007, 03:21 PM
Shouldn't we expect a faster ascent out of a player who left college after his junior year than a high schooler like Crede?

Some would say we've "rushed" Sweeney even more, based on his relative lack of experience in Iowa due to the long winters, although he did play quite a bit of American Legion/AAU ball around the country.

When I played in Japan, even at AA we had a certain number of recent high-school grads. Most were a solid year out of high school, some two or three. Since I was in my late 20s, they thought I was God (at least in terms of questioning me on my on-field decisions.) Maybe, just maybe, Jesus Christ can't really hit a curve ball. ((Ignore that if you didn't see Major League.))

We did get a few recent college grads, typically, they started with us, they'd get their professional feet under them and they'd be assigned appropriately.

College ball, in the USA as much as in Japan, is still different than playing professional ball. College players have a lot of other things going on and the quality level, even on very good college teams is less consistent than in pro ranks. As a pro, you are worried about playing ball exclusively.

Although Brian was certainly more mature when signed than Joe, Joe Crede certainly faced far more quality pitchers in the three years that Brian was in college, even if that time was low minors for Joe.

If by ascent you mean reaching the majors, yes probably. If you mean reaching their full potential as a major leaguer, no definately not.

maurice
02-27-2007, 05:53 PM
Shouldn't we expect a faster ascent out of a player who left college after his junior year than a high schooler like Crede?

To a degree, but not THAT fast. Look at the numbers. Anderson's MLB + minor-league + college ABs <<< Crede's minor-league ABs alone. Also, Anderson started off as a pitcher in college, used an aluminum bat, and left school with a fairly serious wrist injury. It was reasonable to promote him to MLB but unreasonable to expect that he wouldn't struggle for a couple hundred ABs.

Crede didn't get his **** together until he was 27 years old and had well over 1,000 MLB ABs (plus all those minor-league ABs) under his belt. Anderson is just about to turn 25 and has only 399 MLB ABs so far . . . seemingly half of them against the likes of Johan Santana and Randy Johnson. If he hits .260 this year and then takes another step forward in 2008 at age 27, I'd call that reasonable, steady improvement. Unlike Crede, this is the 1st year that Anderson ever has repeated a professional level.

KW is right. Anderson has to take his lumps, just like Crede, et al., but he can't do that unless he's in the lineup.

caulfield12
02-27-2007, 06:00 PM
To a degree, but not THAT fast. Look at the numbers. Anderson's MLB + minor-league + college ABs <<< Crede's minor-league ABs alone. Also, Anderson started off as a pitcher in college, used an aluminum bat, and left school with a fairly serious wrist injury. It was reasonable to promote him to MLB but unreasonable to expect that he wouldn't struggle for a couple hundred ABs.

Crede didn't get his **** together until he was 27 years old and had well over 1,000 MLB ABs (plus all those minor-league ABs) under his belt. Anderson is just about to turn 25 and has only 399 MLB ABs so far . . . seemingly half of them against the likes of Johan Santana and Randy Johnson. If he hits .260 this year and then takes another step forward in 2008 at age 27, I'd call that reasonable, steady improvement. Unlike Crede, this is the 1st year that Anderson ever has repeated a professional level.

KW is right. Anderson has to take his lumps, just like Crede, et al., but he can't do that unless he's in the lineup.

The only question is...and I'm all for being patient, like we were eventually rewarded with Crede an to a lesser extent Rowand...is whether or not we can win and develop BA at the same time?

Otherwise, it might be best for him to play together with Sweeney, Owens, Fields, Rogowski, etc., and then come up together as a "group" for 2008.

If he can hit .260 and cut down his strikeouts a little, then by all means, play him except against the toughest righties.