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View Full Version : These words by KW will be twisted


caulfield12
02-18-2007, 07:08 AM
http://www.suntimes.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/262065,CST-SPT-sox18.article

into "now KW doesn't want to keep Buehrle, Dye OR Iguchi. They can't afford Iguchi. WHAT?"

Well, now they've added Tad into the soap opera, and they're trying to add Vazquez as well, even though the White Sox still have the rights to his services for 2008.

beck72
02-18-2007, 08:25 AM
Tad should be able to be re-signed to a reasonable contract. 2b is a pretty stocked market. Few teams will overpay for him like they would for JD or Mark.

The sox should start their offer something along the lines of a 2 yr deal worth $10 mill.

dickallen15
02-18-2007, 08:30 AM
You can call it whatever you want to call it, but the White Sox have gone from signing guys like Contreras and Garland BEFORE they become free agents to now telling players they "owe it to themselves and their families" to test the market. Considering the amounts of money teams are willing to spend on players, and the record the White Sox have in bidding wars, this advice is akin to saying "goodbye, thank you for your service." It the exact defeatest attitude Williams as said he wants to get rid of on the southside. This team now draws 3,000,000 fans or close to it, have raised ticket prices significantly, and other revenue factors have been raised significantly. Unless Williams has very definitive ideas on where he will spend the money losing these players will free up, this new "attitude" is very puzzling, and not exactly competitive.

UserNameBlank
02-18-2007, 08:50 AM
You can call it whatever you want to call it, but the White Sox have gone from signing guys like Contreras and Garland BEFORE they become free agents to now telling players they "owe it to themselves and their families" to test the market. Considering the amounts of money teams are willing to spend on players, and the record the White Sox have in bidding wars, this advice is akin to saying "goodbye, thank you for your service." It the exact defeatest attitude Williams as said he wants to get rid of on the southside. This team now draws 3,000,000 fans or close to it, have raised ticket prices significantly, and other revenue factors have been raised significantly. Unless Williams has very definitive ideas on where he will spend the money losing these players will free up, this new "attitude" is very puzzling, and not exactly competitive.

I agree. Instead of saying that the players owe it to themselves to get as much as they could get, he could have just said something along the lines of "we think the market is pretty crazy right now and we certainly can't stop our players from exploring it, but we will do our best to make competitive offers to keep the ones who want to stay here once that time comes."

In regard to contract discussions during the season, he could have just said "we don't want our players to be distracted."

KW has a problem picking the right words for delicate situations. So does Ozzie obviously, but at least Ozzie is forthright. He'll either say he likes a player and wants him back or he'll say he's a (insert Nationality here) piece of **** and tell him to worry about playing for the (insert new team here). Kenny isn't supposed to be as emotionally driven as Ozzie with him being the GM. He's supposed to think about what he says before he says it.

UserNameBlank
02-18-2007, 09:09 AM
BTW, am I the only one bothered by KW's constant comments about what the fans could/would/might think after a player bolts for FA?

How does KW know what the fans will think? Somehow he thinks that if a Sox player doesn't accept an extension it will be the player that the fans are upset at, not the team. What is he smoking? I don't know of any Sox fan personally that would hate on Mark for not accepting three years of Gil Meche money. If it's me, and the Sox let Mark go without offering at least 13mil/year at like 4 years, I will feel like the Sox dropped the ball and not Mark.

And why is KW bringing Tadahito into these discussions? Why is he dragging him into this? Tadahito is one of the best values out there as far as 2B are concerned, and even if he hits .300 with 20 HRs this year no one will give him more than 7mil tops. The Sox can afford him without having to break their backs.

At first I was in total agreement with KW as far as picking up some young starting pitchers as insurance for the future and building a new, younger bullpen. But now, he is really talking like he doesn't see extending any of these guys as a priority, and even occaisionally talks about them as if they are already out the door. Now I'm no major league GM, but I highly doubt recommending free agency to all-star level players is going to set a great example to fans and future potential free agents. If I was a player and I wanted to come back, but the club that I played for didn't look at my re-signing as important enough to warrant in-season negotiations, I'd say screw that team and leave.

Thanks, Kenny. I just hope the Kids Can Play in 2008.

EDIT: Something else to add...

Look at Zambrano with the Cubs, or Aramis Ramirez, again with the Cubs. Some players come right out and voice their frustrations. They say exactly what they think they are worth and make demands of their teams' front offices. How many times have we heard Buehrle or Dye or now Iguchi come out and make some demand about the Sox re-signing them? None, because these guys have class and IMO are more deserving of respect than some other players out there. Mark didn't even bring the money thing up, it was KW who started running him mouth in the papers again. I hate to sound so negative, but I can't see this situation ending in any other way than another Frank Thomas/Maggs situation, and I really don't want to have to listen to that every time a franchise level player is let go.

FarWestChicago
02-18-2007, 09:24 AM
BTW, am I the only one bothered by KW's constant comments about what the fans could/would/might think after a player bolts for FA?Yes.

Tragg
02-18-2007, 09:35 AM
We're going to have a lot of openings soon.

We have to replace JD's production (or re-sign him) - that won't be easy.
Maybe Crede (I have no idea when his contract expires - I've read after this year and other years).
We'll need a lead-off hitter.
And we'll lose a couple of pitchers over the next couple of years.
What about SS? 2B?

At least in pitching, it LOOKS like we have several close to ML ready. I don't see a JD replacement anywhere in the high minors.

This is the top of the market (or last off-season was) for pitchers; I can't blame KW for not throwing Zito money at MB. Perhaps FA or signing money is best spent elsewhere.

caulfield12
02-18-2007, 09:49 AM
It's frustrating that KW is more concerned with PR "spin" than signing Mark right now. I think he feels that the White Sox fanbase is more "blue collar" and will turn on MB for turning down a contract that pays more than $10 million per season.

Most White Sox fans (I would say 85%), knowing the market out there, are not going to blame MB for leaving or being greedy. The whole 3 year thing has been repeated so often...so when he signs a 4-6 year deal with another team, nobody will be surprised.

I hope we don't end up moving Cintron or Uribe over to 2B to replace Iguchi...but I can see that happening. Or Ozuna. Not Mackowiak, I hope.

Getz isn't close to ready yet.

Vernam
02-18-2007, 10:07 AM
Look at Zambrano with the Cubs, or Aramis Ramirez, again with the Cubs. Some players come right out and voice their frustrations. They say exactly what they think they are worth and make demands of their teams' front offices. How many times have we heard Buehrle or Dye or now Iguchi come out and make some demand about the Sox re-signing them? None, because these guys have class and IMO are more deserving of respect than some other players out there. It's true that our guys are more deserving of megabucks than that piece of **** Ramirez, who can't be troubled to run out his grounders and flies. It'll hurt if I see Buehrle, Jermaine, or any of the 2005 team (okay, not Willie Harris :redneck) in another uniform, because of how they've conducted themselves. But that is just NOT a sound reason to overpay to keep them, moving forward.

Buehrle rolled the dice by turning down the Sox offer, and it looks like he'll reap the rewards. But if he leaves after another mediocre-to-horrible season, I'll breathe a sigh of relief that we aren't on the hook for 3 or, fer cryin' out loud, 5 years at whatever obscene figure it would take to keep him here. The whole argument that KW has plenty of revenue to keep these guys is short-sighted. As a STH, I'm not wild about the prospect of watching aging talent locked into long-term deals, struggling to recapture the glory of 2005. IOW, I'm glad they're not trying to buy my affection. Let's take our shot this year, and if it doesn't work out, I'm ready for the necessary retooling.

Hell, even if they DO win it all again, I'm not sure KW shouldn't make major changes for 2008. That's the business, and if I have the choice between a GM with deep pockets and one with moxy, I'll take the latter every time. Thank god the Sox aren't throwing their money around to prove how much they love us.

For comparison, I wonder if Twins fans are bitching and moaning because the team probably won't re-sign Torii Hunter. If the Sox' strategy is going to work in the long haul, we need to start doing a much better job of developing our own talent, the way the Minnesota does. The lack of big-time prospects -- and even average prospects who play tough, fundamental baseball -- is what's putting real pressure on Kenny, more than the media and fans are.

Vernam

Frontman
02-18-2007, 10:11 AM
I got to be honest, I don't see 'the plan' of KW like I did in 2006. 2006 we said goodbye to Frank, Carl, and El Duque. We brought in Vazquez, who replaced El Duque. We traded Rowand for Thome, thinking Anderson was MLB ready (and in the field, he was. At the plate, not so much.)

But this season, I'm scratching my head. I have a feeling the Sox have soured on Mark for whatever reason (listening to White Sox weekly yesterday, I forget the assistant GM's name, but his comment "We've dealt with the Cardinals hat issue yearly" sounded almost bitter.) Maybe its just me, but I have a feeling Mark's days on the Southside are numbered.

Crede I'm not as worried about, as it seems every off season its talk of Crede leaving, then another year is offered, he takes it. Dye, man; that's a huge pickle of a sitch. I can understand him wanting a big payoff (hell, the chants of "MVP, MVP, MVP" from us fans support that) but a long term deal for him? That can be a major quandry, as he's getting older, and how long can he perform at a MVP level of play?

Funny, at the end of last year, starting pitching and the bullpen concerned me. I'm still concerned about the starters (especially without a defined 5th starter) but the 'pen seems to be the least of our worries.

Front

ozzie is god
02-18-2007, 10:16 AM
The Sox will never give a pitcher more than 3 years so really have no chance to sign Buehrle next year. I hate to say it but trade him the the Redbirds for Wainwright and rebuild this rotation now. When Lilly gets 10 mildo for 5 years Buehrle gets 13 easy if he has a decent year.

UserNameBlank
02-18-2007, 10:20 AM
It's true that our guys are more deserving of megabucks than that piece of **** Ramirez, who can't be troubled to run out his grounders and flies. It'll hurt if I see Buehrle, Jermaine, or any of the 2005 team (okay, not Willie Harris :redneck) in another uniform, because of how they've conducted themselves. But that is just NOT a sound reason to overpay to keep them, moving forward.

Buehrle rolled the dice by turning down the Sox offer, and it looks like he'll reap the rewards. But if he leaves after another mediocre-to-horrible season, I'll breathe a sigh of relief that we aren't on the hook for 3 or, fer cryin' out loud, 5 years at whatever obscene figure it would take to keep him here. The whole argument that KW has plenty of revenue to keep these guys is short-sighted. As a STH, I'm not wild about the prospect of watching aging talent locked into long-term deals, struggling to recapture the glory of 2005. IOW, I'm glad they're not trying to buy my affection. Let's take our shot this year, and if it doesn't work out, I'm ready for the necessary retooling.

Hell, even if they DO win it all again, I'm not sure KW shouldn't make major changes for 2008. That's the business, and if I have the choice between a GM with deep pockets and one with moxy, I'll take the latter every time. Thank god the Sox aren't throwing their money around to prove how much they love us.

For comparison, I wonder if Twins fans are bitching and moaning because the team probably won't re-sign Torii Hunter. If the Sox' strategy is going to work in the long haul, we need to start doing a much better job of developing our own talent, the way the Twins do. The lack of big-time prospects -- and even average prospects who play great, fundamental baseball -- is what's putting real pressure on Kenny, more than the media and fans.

Vernam

I agree with all of this, but in Buehrle's case especially it is very different. Isn't Mark 27 this year? If he bounces back this year there is no reason to think he won't as solid as any other pitcher out there, and he is just now enetering his prime. He doesn't throw extremely hard and he doesn't have some crazy delivery. He is about as safe of a bet as you can get, AND he's already talked about taking a hometown discount.

As far as overpaying, again, we're not talking about overpaying for a Lily or Meche or something. Unfortunately for the Sox, depending on Mark's 2007, he is now a 13-15mil pitcher. That is his market value, and anything below that is underpaying. If the Sox don't think he's worth that then it is a horrible time to be a Sox fan IMO, because if Mark isn't worth that than no one out there is. And that means we'll get some has been fifth starter again or have some kid out there who belongs in Triple A.

Dye is one thing, but IMO the Sox need another power bat. Thome is 37 IIRC and isn't going to get any healthier, and at his age you have to think that he is certainly going to find himself out or at least bothered by nagging injuries before his contract is over. If Thome goes down and we only have Konerko, we're screwed. If KW gets an Andruw Jones it will be one thing, but if he doesn't get another bat and lets Dye go it will pretty much be an concession of the AL Central before the season even starts.

Iguchi would be easier to replace in the FA/trade market, but again, his salary isn't going to be breaking anyone's back. If the Sox can afford to pay millions to Cintron, Mack, and Hall on the bench then at the very least they can afford Iguchi with a weaker bench.

Vernam
02-18-2007, 10:22 AM
But this season, I'm scratching my head. I have a feeling the Sox have soured on Mark for whatever reason (listening to White Sox weekly yesterday, I forget the assistant GM's name, but his comment "We've dealt with the Cardinals hat issue yearly" sounded almost bitter.) Maybe its just me, but I have a feeling Mark's days on the Southside are numbered. Front, I heard that interview with assistant GM Rick Hahn, but my interpretation was very different. He said the team is used to hearing the BS about Buehrle wanting to be a Cardinal, and the issue has always been blown out of proportion. He didn't express anything but respect for MB, from what I could tell.

The red hat is easy to focus on, but the real reasons they probably won't re-sign him are a.) five-year deals for pitchers are basically foolish, b.) even at his best, MB probably isn't worth $15M per year, five years or not, and c.) in 2006, he pitched like someone who could struggle to be a fifth starter in the AL Central.

Vernam

soxtalker
02-18-2007, 10:37 AM
It's an interesting approach. It looks like the market is changing so rapidly that KW is telling the players to test the waters to establish their market value. Also, while he doesn't have the same constraints in terms of years with position players as with pitchers, Iguchi and Dye may be old enough that KW doesn't feel comfortable offering the kinds of deals that they think they may be able to get on the open market.

I don't read the comments about keeping Buerhle's contract offer quiet so much as "spin". Rather, KW seems to be trying very hard to maintain friendly relations with the players. That's got to be difficult to do, as the uncertainty of the situation will weigh on both the players and the team. It sounds like he wants to leave the option of making offers next year open, and he surely wants them to play well this season.

itsnotrequired
02-18-2007, 10:39 AM
You can call it whatever you want to call it, but the White Sox have gone from signing guys like Contreras and Garland BEFORE they become free agents to now telling players they "owe it to themselves and their families" to test the market. Considering the amounts of money teams are willing to spend on players, and the record the White Sox have in bidding wars, this advice is akin to saying "goodbye, thank you for your service." It the exact defeatest attitude Williams as said he wants to get rid of on the southside. This team now draws 3,000,000 fans or close to it, have raised ticket prices significantly, and other revenue factors have been raised significantly. Unless Williams has very definitive ideas on where he will spend the money losing these players will free up, this new "attitude" is very puzzling, and not exactly competitive.

But is this really the situation? The Sox offered Contreras and Garland deals and they took them before the latest round of free agency lunacy. They certainly could have declined and walked. It has now been revealed that the Sox offered Buehrle an extension and he declined it. The offere appears to be on par with the Garland and Contreras deals. Do we know for a fact that Dye hasn't been offered something and he declined? How does this demonstrate that Williams has a "new attitude"? I'm not putting too much faith in media reports or even what Williams says in public.

peeonwrigley
02-18-2007, 10:49 AM
Stereotype or not, the South Side is considered a blue-collar fan base. When dealing with making $12 million a year compared to $13 million or $14 million, that might be hard for the average 9-to-5 fan to swallow.Eat me Cowley, you ****ing jackass.

russ99
02-18-2007, 10:49 AM
But is this really the situation? The Sox offered Contreras and Garland deals and they took them before the latest round of free agency lunacy. They certainly could have declined and walked. It has now been revealed that the Sox offered Buehrle an extension and he declined it. The offere appears to be on par with the Garland and Contreras deals. Do we know for a fact that Dye hasn't been offered something and he declined? How does this demonstrate that Williams has a "new attitude"? I'm not putting too much faith in media reports or even what Williams says in public.

I totally agree on that standpoint in regards to Buerhle, but I have huge problems with Kenny not even offering a contract extension to Dye and Iguchi.

That says to the fans, "We got these two guys for cheapest contracts in the majors 2 years ago, considering their talent and production. Now when they're due a payday to even it out and reward these guys for their exceptional play, It's way too expensive to even make an offer."

Dye and Iguchi have earned a boost in pay with their play, and I'd surely call "Jerry cheapo payroll shenanigans" on them if the Sox let either player go without even a reasonable offer.

Cowley was way off base with that "Blue-collar" remark. As if all you useless sportswriters are millionaires...

WizardsofOzzie
02-18-2007, 10:58 AM
The Sox will never give a pitcher more than 3 years so really have no chance to sign Buehrle next year. I hate to say it but trade him the the Redbirds for Wainwright and rebuild this rotation now. When Lilly gets 10 mildo for 5 years Buehrle gets 13 easy if he has a decent year.
Why would they trade for Buehrle when they are most likely the front runner to get him if the Sox decide not to pursue him. Of couse he's going to give his favorite team other than the Sox a closer look than the others if the Sox don't give him an offer that he likes

caulfield12
02-18-2007, 10:58 AM
The thing I'm curious about is why KW signed Contreras to the longest deal of all at his age? He also took on the Thome deal, which lasts two more seasons. I can see letting the players in their 30's go, possibly, but Buehrle is, as often quoted, only 27.

This goes against the "younger, faster, stronger" approach. Flies right in the face of it.

I wonder if it wouldn't have been better to keep Mark and Garland than Jose and Garland?

caulfield12
02-18-2007, 11:04 AM
Why would they trade for Buehrle when they are most likely the front runner to get him if the Sox decide not to pursue him. Of couse he's going to give his favorite team other than the Sox a closer look than the others if the Sox don't give him an offer that he likes

To hold off the Cubs and Astros (with Clemens), and maybe the Brewers.

If Wainright and Reyes and other starters aren't ready...and they struggle.

If they want to win this year, when they're still in position to get to another World Series...

Vernam
02-18-2007, 11:40 AM
That says to the fans, "We got these two guys for cheapest contracts in the majors 2 years ago, considering their talent and production. Now when they're due a payday to even it out and reward these guys for their exceptional play, It's way too expensive to even make an offer."Paying players to reward past performance is a recipe for mediocrity or worse. The only way paying the big bucks makes sense is to pay for future performance.

Vernam

drftnaway
02-18-2007, 12:09 PM
I totally agree on that standpoint in regards to Buerhle, but I have huge problems with Kenny not even offering a contract extension to Dye and Iguchi.

That says to the fans, "We got these two guys for cheapest contracts in the majors 2 years ago, considering their talent and production. Now when they're due a payday to even it out and reward these guys for their exceptional play, It's way too expensive to even make an offer."

Dye and Iguchi have earned a boost in pay with their play, and I'd surely call "Jerry cheapo payroll shenanigans" on them if the Sox let either player go without even a reasonable offer.

Cowley was way off base with that "Blue-collar" remark. As if all you useless sportswriters are millionaires...

Question ... When did it happen that players were to be 'rewarded' for a year they were already paid for? When a player is first signed he is paid for the upcoming year(s). Why should he be rewarded if he's good? Is a player punished if he doesn't deliver? Wait! I'll answer that. HELL NO!

I do understand the leverage a player has for an upcoming contract when he is successful so why begrudge a team leverage when the player ISN'T? Why is this all one way all the time? Why ISN'T Mark due a decrease in pay? He didn't earn his money last season.

The system is out of control and fans espousing constant increases aren't helping. THIS player deserves more money cause THAT one got more money. And HE got more money because THAT one got more money. ETC! You know where this ends. it ends in smaller markets NEVER competing or disappearing altogether and fans everywhere having to pay $100's to see ONE STINKING GAME!

Guess what I know? Pittsburgh fans have just as happy a life as New York fans. Maybe they're even happier.

Frontman
02-18-2007, 12:29 PM
Front, I heard that interview with assistant GM Rick Hahn, but my interpretation was very different. He said the team is used to hearing the BS about Buehrle wanting to be a Cardinal, and the issue has always been blown out of proportion. He didn't express anything but respect for MB, from what I could tell.

The red hat is easy to focus on, but the real reasons they probably won't re-sign him are a.) five-year deals for pitchers are basically foolish, b.) even at his best, MB probably isn't worth $15M per year, five years or not, and c.) in 2006, he pitched like someone who could struggle to be a fifth starter in the AL Central.

Vernam

Maybe the disgust could of been "How many times do we need to clarify this?" It just sounded like he was frustrated, which could of been more of having to cover old ground once again.

Good point.

Front

caulfield12
02-18-2007, 12:42 PM
It starts when Zito has three "average" years and is making $18 million over 7 seasons.

Meche, Marquis, Lilly, Batista, etc.

Rogers was actually talking about Zambrano getting $22 to $24 million, which is the amount Clemens would have received over a full year if it his contract wasn't pro-rated.

There are quite a few pitching options (Jayson Stark was on the local radio talking about this) that were espoused, and KW will be excoriated for not having done that (see 2003) when plenty were available for under $4 million per season.

Ohka
Armas Jr.
Bruce Chen
Shawn Estes
Yoslan Herrera
Kei Igawa
Wade Miller
Brian Moehler
Ramon Ortiz
Russ Ortiz
Chan Ho Park
Pineiro
Sidney Ponson
Mark Redman
Aaron Sele
John Thomson
Steve Trachsel
David Wells
Kip Wells
Jerome Williams
Paul Wilson
Jamey Wright
Victor Zambrano

Now will Floyd/Haeger/Phillips do better than all of those pitchers? That remains to be seen. But, considering this might be the biggest year ever for the Sox franchise, you would think we would have brought in an experienced veteran to provide insurance and take the last spot in the bullpen.

I'm sure KW wrestled with that dilemma...and pored over this list hundreds of times. At least I hope he did, that his ego isn't so big to consider that Floyd might not get the job done and what is Plan B, C and D.

Scottiehaswheels
02-18-2007, 01:15 PM
Out of your list caufield I would possibly be interested in only 2-3 of those guys to be honest. Zambrano(if healthy) and Estes(again, if healthy, but not as a starter.).

EMachine10
02-18-2007, 01:25 PM
First of all, I'd love to see JD return, so let's get that out of the way, but....

Haven't a lot of us been touting a "nice looking" 2008 outfield of Fields-Anderson-Sweeney. Yeah, they're young, but Sweeney is propably worthy of starting this year, and he may if Pods isn't healthy enough and he beats out Erstad and Fields. I actually never expected the Sox to bring back Dye after this year.

Tad, on the other hand, will be back.

PalehosePlanet
02-18-2007, 02:09 PM
As far as Iguchi goes the market for 2nd baseman doesnt seem to be thriving. Mark Loretta could barely find a job despite averaging .300 over the last few years, and no one seemed to want a good, young, ballplayer like Brian Giles. I think Tadahito will resign with us in the 2year 8-10 million range.As far as JD goes --- and I know Im probably in the minority here --- I would resign him for 3 years with an option for a 4th in the 45 55 million range. Why? Because not only do I feel that he has become and extremely smart and clutch hitter, but I also feel that he is back to being the player he was pre injury (broken leg w/As.) Does everyone realize that even though last year was his career high in RBIs w/120 that his 2nd best season was 119, his third best 118 and 4th best 107? That his.315 avg. last year was the 2nd best of his career? There is proven track record here, last year was not a fluke. Even if in the 2 final years of his deal he slips into a power only type hitter, bottom line is: we need that. Our team has to be tailored to our own home ballpark, thus we need the power (well take our chances on the road.) As much as I like Anderson and Sweeney, there are definite questions as to weather they will ever grow into power hitters.It seems that KW is caught in a situation where he is waiting for the market to correct itself this coming off-season, which is great in Credes case, but has him/us behind the eight-ball now with decisions having to made on Buehrle and JD.

goon
02-18-2007, 02:20 PM
As far as JD goes --- and I know Im probably in the minority here --- I would resign him for 3 years with an option for a 4th in the 45 55 million range. Why? Because not only do I feel that he has become and extremely smart and clutch hitter, but I also feel that he is back to being the player he was pre injury (broken leg w/As.)

i think they reason they will re-sign JD is because he will probably fill the DH role in 2 years or so and the sox have typically given long contract to power hitters. over the past year JD has become just that and he seems to have a lot left in the tank... the sox should lock him up for 4 years.

caulfield12
02-18-2007, 02:22 PM
Out of your list caufield I would possibly be interested in only 2-3 of those guys to be honest. Zambrano(if healthy) and Estes(again, if healthy, but not as a starter.).

The question is, which one of those guys would you take going into 2007 over anyone we have as the 5th, for THIS season?

And is the cost worth the difference?

When you have a large payroll, I would think adding $1-3,500,00 to the payroll would be worth it...IF, IF, IF you think one of those guys is a better option than Floyd just for THIS season.

102605
02-18-2007, 02:29 PM
The sox should start their offer something along the lines of a 2 yr deal worth $10 mill.

I don't think Iguchi's skills will start diminishing for another 3-4 years. He is 32 now and I would love to see him even finish out his career here.

He filled out a big hole at #2 and 2B in 2005 and beyond as a huge pleasent surprise.

Since he will come cheap because of the 2B market, I say sign him for 3-5 years.

balke
02-18-2007, 02:51 PM
The way I see it:


When this team was constructed, it was done so with the sight of ending this season. They splurged a bit for Sox standards and won one World Series after some great moves, they had a decent season last year (but in the end no playoffs) in a tough division, and now they can only hope to have one more W.S. before they restructure.

If they can't win now, there's no will for the Kenny and Co. to dump out a lot of money on Dye at season's end or Iguchi when they have a young pitching stud like Garland to rebuild this team around young. If Dye repeats his production he'll make Yankee money next season. I'm guessing they want to keep Crede, but Boras might prevent that from happening. They don't want to get in a bidding war with the Cards next season (but I think they will) over Buehrle so they aren't making any promises to the fans. I think a lot of MB coming back is going to depend on MB. Kenny wants him back, and doesn't want to overpay EXTREMELY. Especially if he's lost a few MPH off his fastball. He'll get a nice offer, but the Cards or someone else will probably make a ridiculous offer. I think Kenny will try his best, but he's not clouding his judgement yet or feeding the fans' hopes with promises that might not be kept.

There's a lot of contracts up and some big decisions to be made next year, but there's no excuse not to win this year, that's for sure. The real key to the Sox becoming an elite franchise is to win multiple W.S. championships and to dominate this Central division. If they can win it all again, I think they will spend a lot of money in the offseason and make some nice trades, but that all depends on winning now. If they can't even make the playoffs again, I think this team cleans house and brings up some minor leaguers. What good is a +100 million dollar team with this much talent if they can't make the playoffs? All the tools for success are here already. Win this season, or I'll be looking forward to a new look to this team.

balke
02-18-2007, 03:04 PM
b.) even at his best, MB probably isn't worth $15M per year, five years or not, and c.) in 2006, he pitched like someone who could struggle to be a fifth starter in the AL Central.

Vernam


I see the point and partially agree. I would only truly feel this way if Buehrle struggles the entire season like this again. Pitchers have down years. Great pitchers, above average, mediocre. It can be one down year, sometimes two but they can also bounce back to their average level of play quite easily. Mark's Average level of play is worth 15 million because he's an inning eater, and a winner. He's also not so old. He's one of the most well-liked players on the team and I personally think he's the greatest face on the team when it comes to the fans. He's got a great personality, doesn't say stupid things too often, and plays hard without making excuses. Whenever I'm going to a game, I'm checking to see if Buehrle is taking the mound, and that's with a team that has/had 5 great pitchers.

I'm excited to see how a player like this responds this season to being knocked out of the ace role, because I think he's the kind of player who's quiet now and will focus to get that role back. Buehrle at his best is the guy I want going against Santana or any other teams ace, because he really gets his head in the game when he's challenged. I'm excited to see him play this season, and I think if he gives us ace stuff KW has no choice but to make the best offer possible for a long term deal to keep him in the black and white. To me, he and Garland should be kept together as long as possible.

caulfield12
02-18-2007, 03:11 PM
Buehrle will be fifth in the starting rotation in terms of "stuff" and 1st in heart and desire.

He's a lot like McDowell, in that sense...or a much better version of Greg Hibbard, the Bulldog. Also, I think of Sirotka when I think of MB.

caulfield12
02-18-2007, 03:15 PM
The way I see it:


When this team was constructed, it was done so with the sight of ending this season. They splurged a bit for Sox standards and won one World Series after some great moves, they had a decent season last year (but in the end no playoffs) in a tough division, and now they can only hope to have one more W.S. before they restructure.

If they can't win now, there's no will for the Kenny and Co. to dump out a lot of money on Dye at season's end or Iguchi when they have a young pitching stud like Garland to rebuild this team around young. If Dye repeats his production he'll make Yankee money next season. I'm guessing they want to keep Crede, but Boras might prevent that from happening. They don't want to get in a bidding war with the Cards next season (but I think they will) over Buehrle so they aren't making any promises to the fans. I think a lot of MB coming back is going to depend on MB. Kenny wants him back, and doesn't want to overpay EXTREMELY. Especially if he's lost a few MPH off his fastball. He'll get a nice offer, but the Cards or someone else will probably make a ridiculous offer. I think Kenny will try his best, but he's not clouding his judgement yet or feeding the fans' hopes with promises that might not be kept.

There's a lot of contracts up and some big decisions to be made next year, but there's no excuse not to win this year, that's for sure. The real key to the Sox becoming an elite franchise is to win multiple W.S. championships and to dominate this Central division. If they can win it all again, I think they will spend a lot of money in the offseason and make some nice trades, but that all depends on winning now. If they can't even make the playoffs again, I think this team cleans house and brings up some minor leaguers. What good is a +100 million dollar team with this much talent if they can't make the playoffs? All the tools for success are here already. Win this season, or I'll be looking forward to a new look to this team.

It would be a lot different if we were in the NL Central. We could hold on for 2 more seasons with the current group, assuming we kept Buehrle and Vazquez through 08 at least.

With Liriano theoretically coming back, Minnesota's young pitching....Detroit's young pitching (besides Rogers and Jones)...Cleveland and KC are both young teams as well (Westbrook, Byrd and Elarton are the only veterans). KW is preparing for the future while hoping to do enough to win this year, but he's already hedging his bets so they're not totally screwed for 08/09/10.

Lip Man 1
02-18-2007, 03:34 PM
Whether we agree with this 'philosophy' or not (and personally I don't) at least Williams' comments make it very clear what is going on and eliminates a lot of speculation.

The players know where they stand, the agents know where they stand, the media know where they stand as well as members of the front office and most importantly, the fans.

Play the games, enjoy the season, hope for the best and then we'll see what happens. I'm sorry it has to be this way but again at least there is no confusion, no misunderstandings, no broken promises.

Lip

Frontman
02-18-2007, 03:48 PM
Whether we agree with this 'philosophy' or not (and personally I don't) at least Williams' comments make it very clear what is going on and eliminates a lot of speculation.

The players know where they stand, the agents know where they stand, the media know where they stand as well as members of the front office and most importantly, the fans.

Play the games, enjoy the season, hope for the best and then we'll see what happens. I'm sorry it has to be this way but again at least there is no confusion, no misunderstandings, no broken promises.

Lip


Well, that's true. Also, as much as we love these guys, what if (and I'm just saying if) Dye, Iguchi, and Mark are let downs this season? WS 2005 aside, would we as fans still be supportive of them getting money from the Sox if its just another non-playoff season? If they come up short again, maybe the best thing is for some of these guys to move on.

fusillirob1983
02-18-2007, 03:48 PM
It would be a lot different if we were in the NL Central. We could hold on for 2 more seasons with the current group, assuming we kept Buehrle and Vazquez through 08 at least.

With Liriano theoretically coming back, Minnesota's young pitching....Detroit's young pitching (besides Rogers and Jones)...Cleveland and KC are both young teams as well (Westbrook, Byrd and Elarton are the only veterans). KW is preparing for the future while hoping to do enough to win this year, but he's already hedging his bets so they're not totally screwed for 08/09/10.

You talking about Cliff Lee and not Elarton? Elarton was sent to the Royals last year.

balke
02-18-2007, 03:49 PM
Whether we agree with this 'philosophy' or not (and personally I don't) at least Williams' comments make it very clear what is going on and eliminates a lot of speculation.

The players know where they stand, the agents know where they stand, the media know where they stand as well as members of the front office and most importantly, the fans.

Play the games, enjoy the season, hope for the best and then we'll see what happens. I'm sorry it has to be this way but again at least there is no confusion, no misunderstandings, no broken promises.

Lip


This is a very sensitive area as a GM. Kenny has to be careful what he says. He has to be real to the fans and the players in order to maintain his character. He's gotta do what's best for the team, so he made an offer that wasn't probably the proper amount at the time.

This reminds me a lot of the Magglio situation. I think Kenny is going to be fair, but not stupid when it comes to making these offers. He could offer Buerhle 16 mil a year for 6 years possibly if he wanted, but what if Mark is always going to be Mark of last season? (Doubtful, just an example). Same can be said of Dye, a ex-gold glover with a .622 slugging pct. That was one season. You could give him a Giambi contract right now, and he could play like Giambi the rest of his career. (Hopefully not). I for now agree with Kenny. He's gotta let these players figure out what's more important to them next season between a couple million, or staying with this ballclub. I also think Kenny has to decide next season what this ballclub is going to look like. Next season is too far away, these guys all need to perform now to keep the Sox organization running at full speed.

Bill Naharodny
02-18-2007, 03:55 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by UserNameBlank http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=1488798#post1488798)
BTW, am I the only one bothered by KW's constant comments about what the fans could/would/might think after a player bolts for FA?

Yes.

Yes.

No.

balke
02-18-2007, 03:59 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by UserNameBlank http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=1488798#post1488798)
BTW, am I the only one bothered by KW's constant comments about what the fans could/would/might think after a player bolts for FA?

Yes.



No.


I think this was part of the article that was tampered with a bit in the writing. The writer puts a very suspicious tone to it, but I think Kenny was just answering a question as to why he didn't make this offer public, and he said to protect Mark from what the fans might think or the media might make it. That's an honest and proper response, cause now the media made it something, and this article tries as hard as possible to make it seem like Mark is only interested in money next season, which really isn't the case.

caulfield12
02-18-2007, 04:09 PM
This is a very sensitive area as a GM. Kenny has to be careful what he says. He has to be real to the fans and the players in order to maintain his character. He's gotta do what's best for the team, so he made an offer that wasn't probably the proper amount at the time.

This reminds me a lot of the Magglio situation. I think Kenny is going to be fair, but not stupid when it comes to making these offers. He could offer Buerhle 16 mil a year for 6 years possibly if he wanted, but what if Mark is always going to be Mark of last season? (Doubtful, just an example). Same can be said of Dye, a ex-gold glover with a .622 slugging pct. That was one season. You could give him a Giambi contract right now, and he could play like Giambi the rest of his career. (Hopefully not). I for now agree with Kenny. He's gotta let these players figure out what's more important to them next season between a couple million, or staying with this ballclub. I also think Kenny has to decide next season what this ballclub is going to look like. Next season is too far away, these guys all need to perform now to keep the Sox organization running at full speed.

Magglio didn't have as good a relationship with OG as Buehrle, for whatever reason.

I also think the nature of his contract (it escalated to $14.5 million in 2004) and the health concerns gave the White Sox a legit reason to pass on him, and, with Dye, it turned out to be the exact right move.

Thomas, Magglio, Ventura, McDowell, Fisk...almost every really good White Sox player has departed under less than ideal circumstances, for a number of reasons.

The main frustration is on the part of the fans...ticket prices keep going up and up, yet they're keeping the payroll the same, and there's a very real chance the payroll will go back down into the $90's, if not the $80s, after the 2007 season.

You take Buehrle's contract, Dye, and Crede (just to name three...leaving out Vazquez and Iguchi)....you're in that $88-92 million payroll mark. I know, we won the WS with a smaller payroll, but I don't think the fans really care about payroll numbers and cost/benefit analyses.

I haven't seen the numbers, but there's no way we should be spending less than the Detroit Tigers, especially after coming off this 05-06 run of "success."

caulfield12
02-18-2007, 04:13 PM
I think this was part of the article that was tampered with a bit in the writing. The writer puts a very suspicious tone to it, but I think Kenny was just answering a question as to why he didn't make this offer public, and he said to protect Mark from what the fans might think or the media might make it. That's an honest and proper response, cause now the media made it something, and this article tries as hard as possible to make it seem like Mark is only interested in money next season, which really isn't the case.

I think if the White Sox don't make the playoffs, MB will either go with the Cardinals or the best possible guaranteed offer (years and per/year average...deferred money, options, incentives, etc.)

OTOH, the White Sox make the playoffs, you almost feel that KW will still go with the Cardinals approach...cutting Suppan, Weaver and Marquis loose, keeping 1-2 veterans (Carpenter re-signing was key, and a bargain at that) and giving Wainright, Reyes and the youngsters a chance.

Best case scenario, we emulate the Cardinals, survive the AL Central and get hot again in the playoffs...then end up having to rebuild in 08 for another run in 09 and 2010.

ozzie is god
02-18-2007, 04:32 PM
To hold off the Cubs and Astros (with Clemens), and maybe the Brewers.

If Wainright and Reyes and other starters aren't ready...and they struggle.

If they want to win this year, when they're still in position to get to another World Series...


I like the Brewers in the NL central this year. Sheets, Capuano, Bush, Suppan and Vargas give them the best pitching in the division. I think the Cards would be dumb not to explore this option in a winable central. I hate to see Buehrle go but why not get something before he leaves?

caulfield12
02-18-2007, 04:40 PM
I like the Brewers in the NL central this year. Sheets, Capuano, Bush, Suppan and Vargas give them the best pitching in the division. I think the Cards would be dumb not to explore this option in a winable central. I hate to see Buehrle go but why not get something before he leaves?

Let's say you could get Wainright or Reyes back...the question is how much does that kill your chance to win in the final two months?

Most of us get a "win this year, screw next year" feeling in June and July, and KW will be slaughtered in the press if the Sox were to be in first or second and they dealt Buehrle (assuming he was going good). The recent Rogers article talks about "brass balls" for Hendry to deal Zambrano, well the press if KW deals MB will be 95% negative compared to a possible Zambrano deal. If Hendry did deal CZ, most of the writers would find a way to spin it positively, as Rogers is already doing. Either way, the Cubs are covered from a PR standpoint.

Tannerfan
02-18-2007, 04:55 PM
I'm suprised no one in this thread has mentioned the way Konerko's situation played out. He was willing to sign an extension going into '05, but KW said no, Let's wait untill the end of the season. Williams publicly said the same thing then as he is now; that Konerko owed it to himself to see what offers he could get from other teams. That strategy played out just fine.

goon
02-18-2007, 05:03 PM
If they can't win now, there's no will for the Kenny and Co. to dump out a lot of money on Dye at season's end or Iguchi when they have a young pitching stud like Garland to rebuild this team around young. If Dye repeats his production he'll make Yankee money next season. I'm guessing they want to keep Crede, but Boras might prevent that from happening. They don't want to get in a bidding war with the Cards next season (but I think they will) over Buehrle so they aren't making any promises to the fans. I think a lot of MB coming back is going to depend on MB. Kenny wants him back, and doesn't want to overpay EXTREMELY. Especially if he's lost a few MPH off his fastball. He'll get a nice offer, but the Cards or someone else will probably make a ridiculous offer. I think Kenny will try his best, but he's not clouding his judgement yet or feeding the fans' hopes with promises that might not be kept.


okay. if the sox don't spend any money on dye, iguchi or buehrle, then where exactly are they going to spend money? with all of the young pitchers the sox have acquired this offseason, they put themselves in a position to spend on players like dye, iguchi and buehrle. this isn't an organization that needs to limit themselves financially as much as people may think and if they don't re-sign dye, it will be difficult to find a power bat that can match his, which will be crucial after jim is gone.

with sweeney coming up and taking JD's spot in right in a year or so, i'd like to see JD move to the DH spot. it will add time and i think he has more than proven he is 100% healthy after his injury.

Lip Man 1
02-18-2007, 06:49 PM
Another story on this from whitesox.com:

http://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20070218&content_id=1806683&vkey=spt2007news&fext=.jsp&c_id=cws

Lip

UserNameBlank
02-18-2007, 07:47 PM
I'm suprised no one in this thread has mentioned the way Konerko's situation played out. He was willing to sign an extension going into '05, but KW said no, Let's wait untill the end of the season. Williams publicly said the same thing then as he is now; that Konerko owed it to himself to see what offers he could get from other teams. That strategy played out just fine.

Paulie has admitted he was almost an Angel. In that FA market, PK was the best available player and the Sox were coming off the WS with virtually their entire roster locked up for at least one more year, and the Sox still almost lost him.

Now, Dye and Buerhrle will be two of the best available players, probably 2 of the top 5. Iguchi should be the best 2B available. At least one of these guys will not be back, probably 2, maybe all 3.

Besides, if the GM tells players to explore the FA market instead of trying to negotiate with them during the season, those players are going to follow him advice and take an offer that the Sox can't match. And I think that's what KW wants to happen, which is pathetic if true.

dickallen15
02-18-2007, 07:58 PM
I'm suprised no one in this thread has mentioned the way Konerko's situation played out. He was willing to sign an extension going into '05, but KW said no, Let's wait untill the end of the season. Williams publicly said the same thing then as he is now; that Konerko owed it to himself to see what offers he could get from other teams. That strategy played out just fine.
The strategy played out fine because the White Sox won the WS and had extra money to play with. It cost them A LOT more money to sign Konerko after 2005 than it would have before then. So technically it leaves them less for other players now, which probably hurts the team.

gosox41
02-18-2007, 08:34 PM
Paulie has admitted he was almost an Angel. In that FA market, PK was the best available player and the Sox were coming off the WS with virtually their entire roster locked up for at least one more year, and the Sox still almost lost him.

Now, Dye and Buerhrle will be two of the best available players, probably 2 of the top 5. Iguchi should be the best 2B available. At least one of these guys will not be back, probably 2, maybe all 3.

Besides, if the GM tells players to explore the FA market instead of trying to negotiate with them during the season, those players are going to follow him advice and take an offer that the Sox can't match. And I think that's what KW wants to happen, which is pathetic if true.


It seems like KW is a little too excited to break up the team and start over.
Hopefully he's just posturing.



Bob

nodiggity59
02-18-2007, 08:45 PM
Dye won't earn the money we'll be giving him in 08, 09, 10, 11......so WHY would we resign him? He'll porabably be pretty avg at that age.

Iguchi would be nice to keep but if we don't.....meh he's not vital.

Buerhle would be REALLY nice.

Lip Man 1
02-18-2007, 11:00 PM
Tribune story on this issue:

http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/cs-070218sox,1,6803383.story?coll=cs-home-headlines

Lip

mshake10
02-18-2007, 11:32 PM
At least someone finally revealed Iguchi's contract status (resign or must be released).

Despite his good stats, can Iguchi really command a big contract?

UserNameBlank
02-19-2007, 06:30 AM
Dye won't earn the money we'll be giving him in 08, 09, 10, 11......so WHY would we resign him? He'll porabably be pretty avg at that age.

Iguchi would be nice to keep but if we don't.....meh he's not vital.

Buerhle would be REALLY nice.

I doubt the Sox would go beyond 3 years for Dye. If anything, a fourth would have an option with a team buyout I'm sure. As for him not earning his money in '08, '09, and '10, there is no way to guess. He's had two very solid seasons back-to-back where he's been healthy, and the numbers he is putting up now are the type of numbers everyone thought he would put up after leaving KC. So maybe he's a late, late bloomer? If nothing else, as long as he doesn't have a major injury even 2-3 years from now he will still be at least a capable LF.

Besides Dye, the only free agents next year that are capable of putting up Dye-like power numbers are Bobby Abreu, Jose Guillen, Andruw Jones, Barry Bonds, Mike Sweeney, Michael Young, Moises Alou, and Adam Dunn. Of that list several have fallen off, and only Young, Jones, and Sweeney would be good fits for this club IMO. Sweeney is a DH though and we have Thome. Young would be interesting but if the Sox are worried about how much money Tadahito will get I doubt they are in the market for a 15mil+ per season SS with less than stellar defense. So, IMO it is either Dye or Jones. If neither, KW is opening a huge hole on offense that will severely weaken the team, especially considering that we'd probably have at least 2 young starters in the rotation and a still young bullpen.

Tragg
02-19-2007, 08:25 AM
There are quite a few pitching options (Jayson Stark was on the local radio talking about this) that were espoused, and KW will be excoriated for not having done that (see 2003) when plenty were available for under $4 million per season.
All gambles on that list; , but again, that's what Politte and Hermanson were in 2005, really; and they were crucial in our WS championship.

Thome25
02-19-2007, 11:27 AM
I don't see the big deal with KW's comments.

NEWSFLASH: Buerhle isn't worth 7 years at 18mil per. If he wants Zito money he can go to the Redbirds for all I care.

Dye isn't worth a long term deal at 15-17mil per season at his age. He can gladly test the market if he so chooses.

If Gooch wants to play for a reasonable contract then he can gladly stay in my book.

I'd rather see KW spend the money elsewhere.

Also, why do so many people on here have a problem with the comments in the original article about White Sox fans being blue collar?

What's wrong with being blue collar? I'll answer that for ya....NOTHING....for the most part the Sox fanbase is a hardworking, blue collar bunch.

I'm blue collar AND PROUD OF IT. It's better than being a bunch of drunken, brie-eating, frat boys.......like.......you know who I'm talking about.

itsnotrequired
02-19-2007, 11:32 AM
Also, why do so many people on here have a problem with the comments in the original article about White Sox fans being blue collar?

What's wrong with being blue collar? I'll answer that for ya....NOTHING....for the most part the Sox fanbase is a hardworking, blue collar bunch.

I'm blue collar AND PROUD OF IT. It's better than being a bunch of drunken, brie-eating, frat boys.......like.......you know who I'm talking about.

There is nothing wrong with being blue-collar but is there any evidence which proves most Sox fans are blue collar? Its a stereotype and right or wrong, its a little weak.

Sort of like these "drunken, brie-eating frat boys" you mention...

Thome25
02-19-2007, 11:37 AM
There is nothing wrong with being blue-collar but is there any evidence which proves most Sox fans are blue collar? Its a stereotype and right or wrong, its a little weak.

Sort of like these "drunken, brie-eating frat boys" you mention...

Right or wrong....I don't mind it at all....and IMO neither should anyone else.

IMO for the most part as a fanbase we are still blue collar.

Also, it's the basis for the ongoing war we have with the other side of town.

Blue Collar VS White Collar.

There's nothing wrong with being blue collar in the City Of Broad Shoulders<<<a name in my opinion that was attached to us because of the hardworking, blue collar worker.

itsnotrequired
02-19-2007, 11:39 AM
Right or wrong....I don't mind it at all....and IMO neither should anyone else.

IMO for the most part as a fanbase we are still blue collar.

Also, it's the basis for the ongoing war we have with the other side of town.

Blue Collar VS White Collar.

I'm white collar so I guess I'll have to sit this "war" out. Or maybe I should be an officer.

:rolleyes:

Flight #24
02-19-2007, 11:45 AM
okay. if the sox don't spend any money on dye, iguchi or buehrle, then where exactly are they going to spend money? with all of the young pitchers the sox have acquired this offseason, they put themselves in a position to spend on players like dye, iguchi and buehrle. this isn't an organization that needs to limit themselves financially as much as people may think and if they don't re-sign dye, it will be difficult to find a power bat that can match his, which will be crucial after jim is gone.


This is what bugs me, and maybe that combined with the overlong offseason has me turning wacky, but bear with me as I work through the logic:

Assumptions:
1 - Kenny is not a "rebuild" kind of guy, he wants a team that can win either every year, or at least by taking not more than a year off.
2 - The payroll isn't getting cut.
3 - If things happen as they seem to be shaping out, Dye, Buehrle, Iguchi will all be gone, freeing up roughly 20-odd mil in payroll. Some of that could go to Crede, or if he's gone and Fields is in, it's something like $25M in payroll. Which brings you back to point #2, who gets the money?
4 - "Kenny always gets his man".

So the question is: who's out there that Kenny's been after, that will require a significant contract, and that can act as the franchise player?

ARod. He can opt out after '07, and there doesn't seem to be any improvement in the relationship between him and the Torre-Jeter-Giambi-NYY Fans crew. Kenny tried to get him via trade, and now maybe he thinks he can get him as an FA, allowing both sides to correct IMO a huge mistake made back when he was FA the first time.

You think ARod would come to a team with Konerko, Thome, Crede, AJ and a pitching staff including Contreras, Garland, Vazquez and a killer bullpen and a bunch of young stud arms?

Just a thought. Of course, maybe Kenny's just posturing and will resign some of the guys. But if not - he's not the kind of guy who's operating without a plan for the freed up $$$.

:smokin: :gulp:

Soxfest
02-19-2007, 12:15 PM
Attendance up.............Small market attitude remains

caulfield12
02-19-2007, 01:04 PM
This is what bugs me, and maybe that combined with the overlong offseason has me turning wacky, but bear with me as I work through the logic:

Assumptions:
1 - Kenny is not a "rebuild" kind of guy, he wants a team that can win either every year, or at least by taking not more than a year off.
2 - The payroll isn't getting cut.
3 - If things happen as they seem to be shaping out, Dye, Buehrle, Iguchi will all be gone, freeing up roughly 20-odd mil in payroll. Some of that could go to Crede, or if he's gone and Fields is in, it's something like $25M in payroll. Which brings you back to point #2, who gets the money?
4 - "Kenny always gets his man".

So the question is: who's out there that Kenny's been after, that will require a significant contract, and that can act as the franchise player?

ARod. He can opt out after '07, and there doesn't seem to be any improvement in the relationship between him and the Torre-Jeter-Giambi-NYY Fans crew. Kenny tried to get him via trade, and now maybe he thinks he can get him as an FA, allowing both sides to correct IMO a huge mistake made back when he was FA the first time.

You think ARod would come to a team with Konerko, Thome, Crede, AJ and a pitching staff including Contreras, Garland, Vazquez and a killer bullpen and a bunch of young stud arms?

Just a thought. Of course, maybe Kenny's just posturing and will resign some of the guys. But if not - he's not the kind of guy who's operating without a plan for the freed up $$$.

:smokin: :gulp:


There's also the Ichiro theory...not many stud FA pitchers on the market. They were discussing this the other week and the first name that came up (on an ESPN nationally-syndicated show, not local) was Buehrle.

I would think they MIGHT prefer to keep Tadahito around if they were going to make a serious play at Ichiro though.

caulfield12
02-19-2007, 01:11 PM
More credence to the A-Rod angle...although nothing that wasn't suspected the last 2-3 seasons by "insiders"

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/spring2007/news/story?id=2771141

soxfanatlanta
02-19-2007, 01:37 PM
You think ARod would come to a team with Konerko, Thome, Crede, AJ and a pitching staff including Contreras, Garland, Vazquez and a killer bullpen and a bunch of young stud arms?

I'm sure ARod would love to get the hell out of NY in general. Your theory is plausible, not doubt about it. But you forgot assumption #5:

KW is unpredictable.

Frontman
02-19-2007, 01:52 PM
Right or wrong....I don't mind it at all....and IMO neither should anyone else.

IMO for the most part as a fanbase we are still blue collar.

Also, it's the basis for the ongoing war we have with the other side of town.

Blue Collar VS White Collar.

There's nothing wrong with being blue collar in the City Of Broad Shoulders<<<a name in my opinion that was attached to us because of the hardworking, blue collar worker.

Let me throw just a bit of reason in here, although I'm blue collar as they come.

It isn't so much a war of blue versus white, but fans of a team versus fans of an event. So called Cubs fans who fill Wrigley care not for the game, but the event. White Sox fans who come to the Cell, by and large, care about the team and the game played. I've said it before, I'll say it again, Wrigley fans could sit in that dump with carboard cutouts on dolly track and wouldn't notice the difference. They'll pay 40 and 50 bucks a pop to sit on a bleacher seat and drink beer. Sox tickets, on the other hand, can be half of that price (give or take) and even guys who scrape enough to go to games will take those seats to enjoy the game and root for their team to win.

Granted, attendance is up at the Cell with the bandwagoneers, but KW's moves have to take into consideration that some of those fans *might* not be back this season, as the Sox are no longer defending champs.

WizardsofOzzie
02-19-2007, 02:20 PM
At least someone finally revealed Iguchi's contract status (resign or must be released).

Despite his good stats, can Iguchi really command a big contract?
I honestly don't think his demands will be out of reach. I believe they will be very reasonable

SBSoxFan
02-19-2007, 02:50 PM
I'm white collar so I guess I'll have to sit this "war" out. Or maybe I should be an officer.

:rolleyes:

Can we be white collar and hard working? :D:


........ despite the fact that I'm sitting at work reading WSI?

getonbckthr
02-19-2007, 02:57 PM
I have no problem with what Kenny is doing. He is doing what he feels is the best for the franchise not only this season, next season but for seasons ahead in the future. We see it every year teams giving guys lots of money only to be discouraged by them not performing and having 1 of 2 options dealing with it and not be financially flexible or dealing them to the Yankees or Bosox and have to eat a majority of the contract. Texas made that mistake with Arod and Chan Ho Park. They were able to move Arod but they had deal with Park. I have a feeling Anaheim with Matthews and SF with Zito will fall into a similar trap with this years signing. Lets face it when we signed Dye did we think we were signing a 40/100/.300 guy for 5 million a year? No. He has over produced based on what his market was worth. Based on his production he is looking at probably somewhere in the 12-15 million a year price range. Is Dye really gonna be worth it for the next 5-6 years? No he won't. As far as Iguchi he has been a nice player but he is definately replaceable. We can a find another 2nd baseman to do the same for the same price probably cheaper. On to Mark Buerhle. He is one of my favorite players ever. I like his attitude and how he comes to the ballpark each day. However is he worth the money Zito got? Hell is even Zito worth the money he is getting? No and No. One thing we all praised Kenny on was how he avoided giving Ordonez and CLee lucrative contracts and instead used their money to improve many areas. Perhaps, perhaps, he is doing the same thing here. Don't freak out, relax and have faith in Kenny. He knows what he is doing and clearly has a plan. What it is we have no clue, but that is why Kenny is running the team and me and you are simply watching on TV.

UserNameBlank
02-19-2007, 09:36 PM
This is what bugs me, and maybe that combined with the overlong offseason has me turning wacky, but bear with me as I work through the logic:

Assumptions:
1 - Kenny is not a "rebuild" kind of guy, he wants a team that can win either every year, or at least by taking not more than a year off.
2 - The payroll isn't getting cut.
3 - If things happen as they seem to be shaping out, Dye, Buehrle, Iguchi will all be gone, freeing up roughly 20-odd mil in payroll. Some of that could go to Crede, or if he's gone and Fields is in, it's something like $25M in payroll. Which brings you back to point #2, who gets the money?
4 - "Kenny always gets his man".

So the question is: who's out there that Kenny's been after, that will require a significant contract, and that can act as the franchise player?

ARod. He can opt out after '07, and there doesn't seem to be any improvement in the relationship between him and the Torre-Jeter-Giambi-NYY Fans crew. Kenny tried to get him via trade, and now maybe he thinks he can get him as an FA, allowing both sides to correct IMO a huge mistake made back when he was FA the first time.

You think ARod would come to a team with Konerko, Thome, Crede, AJ and a pitching staff including Contreras, Garland, Vazquez and a killer bullpen and a bunch of young stud arms?

Just a thought. Of course, maybe Kenny's just posturing and will resign some of the guys. But if not - he's not the kind of guy who's operating without a plan for the freed up $$$.

:smokin: :gulp:

I hope KW wouldn't be willing to gamble on the future of three very important players of this team just for a chance at one player, unless said player is Johan Santana. Besides, that pretty much goes against his philosophy of distributing resources across the team anyway.

Thome25
02-20-2007, 08:33 AM
I hope KW wouldn't be willing to gamble on the future of three very important players of this team just for a chance at one player, unless said player is Johan Santana. Besides, that pretty much goes against his philosophy of distributing resources across the team anyway.

Buehrle isn't worth the money he's going to be offered in the offseason. 18mil per for 7 seasons is just too rich for my blood. He simply isn't worth what Zito got.

The contract that Mark turned down was perfect in my mind. 3 years at around 12mil per.

Though it's highly unlikely, I'd like to see KW take the money he saves on the Dye, Buehrle, Iguchi and make a big splash on the FA market by signing Johan Santana.

If KW and JR are ever going to make and exception to their "no 5-year deals to pitchers rule" then Johan Santana is the pitcher you break that rule for.

Also, by signing Johan Santana KW and the Sox would really be sticking a knife in the hearts of the Twins and their fans......and twisting it.

soxfanatlanta
02-20-2007, 08:53 AM
As far as Iguchi he has been a nice player but he is definately replaceable. We can a find another 2nd baseman to do the same for the same price probably cheaper.

Who?

Domeshot17
02-20-2007, 09:06 AM
Buehrle isn't worth the money he's going to be offered in the offseason. 18mil per for 7 seasons is just too rich for my blood. He simply isn't worth what Zito got.

The contract that Mark turned down was perfect in my mind. 3 years at around 12mil per.

Though it's highly unlikely, I'd like to see KW take the money he saves on the Dye, Buehrle, Iguchi and make a big splash on the FA market by signing Johan Santana.

If KW and JR are ever going to make and exception to their "no 5-year deals to pitchers rule" then Johan Santana is the pitcher you break that rule for.

Also, by signing Johan Santana KW and the Sox would really be sticking a knife in the hearts of the Twins and their fans......and twisting it.

Here is my response, although I do agree with some of it.

Buehrle isn't worth Zito Money. Zito isn't worth Zito Money, No pitcher is, as good as they are, they play in roughly 20% of the games. Pitching is an odd position, its about as over rated and under rates as it comes. You need to have a good staff, but one pitcher doesn't make a staff, he can however, break one.

That being said, Buehrle is basically the ideal guy you break a the 3 year for. This is because you know he is (a) a horse (b) does not have an injury history and (c) Isn't a power pitcher, meaning he doesn't put the strain on his arm which could lead to injury. He is also young, and won't even be in his mid 30's when a 5 year deal would be up.

As much as I would love Santana, I don't know. I wouldn't trade Buehrle Dye Crede and Tadahito for him, and that is what you are doing when you say you will let them walk to make a run at him.

You are also putting ALL your eggs in one basket with this plan. You let Buehlre leave this year with Dye and Tadahito, and Crede in 2008, 3 of the 4 will be gone before Johan is even available to listen to an offer. Then you are saying the Yankees, with the room they may have save from Arod, won't come over the top and outbid us. So in the end, you could lose all 5.

I also don't like the message Kenny is sending. Kenny ask's his players to leave money on the table to play for the Sox. He did it with guys like Konerko, and the ones who didn't like Magglio walked. Now that didn't hurt us, but if Kenny wants guys to leave money on the table and be loyal to the team, then he needs to be loyal to his players. Im not saying he hasn't been, but its not really sending the best message to the younger kids, "Do Well here and then go somewhere else and get paid".

Hopefully in the end a few of these guys stay. I love Crede and Dye, but one of them can go. Tadahito earned his 6.5 a year for 3 years, and Buehrle earned his 13-15 a year for 5. Pay them. Trade Vazquez if you have to clear the room for Buehrle. I just wonder if Kenny didn't get a little punch drunk after the world series and a little too trigger happy. Maybe he didn't realize HOW MUCH Thome and Vazquez would be costing as their deals went on. Throw that in with the unexpected Cub Bubble in the market, and he had to adjust.

Kenny's a good GM, and loading up I don't really have a problem with. I just wonder where this money WILL be spent. Financially Responsible is a fine thing, being cheap and stubborn isnt. The market in the next 2 years will determine which Kenny and JR is.

Thome25
02-20-2007, 09:31 AM
Here is my response, although I do agree with some of it.

Buehrle isn't worth Zito Money. Zito isn't worth Zito Money, No pitcher is, as good as they are, they play in roughly 20% of the games. Pitching is an odd position, its about as over rated and under rates as it comes. You need to have a good staff, but one pitcher doesn't make a staff, he can however, break one.

That being said, Buehrle is basically the ideal guy you break a the 3 year for. This is because you know he is (a) a horse (b) does not have an injury history and (c) Isn't a power pitcher, meaning he doesn't put the strain on his arm which could lead to injury. He is also young, and won't even be in his mid 30's when a 5 year deal would be up.

As much as I would love Santana, I don't know. I wouldn't trade Buehrle Dye Crede and Tadahito for him, and that is what you are doing when you say you will let them walk to make a run at him.

You are also putting ALL your eggs in one basket with this plan. You let Buehlre leave this year with Dye and Tadahito, and Crede in 2008, 3 of the 4 will be gone before Johan is even available to listen to an offer. Then you are saying the Yankees, with the room they may have save from Arod, won't come over the top and outbid us. So in the end, you could lose all 5.

I also don't like the message Kenny is sending. Kenny ask's his players to leave money on the table to play for the Sox. He did it with guys like Konerko, and the ones who didn't like Magglio walked. Now that didn't hurt us, but if Kenny wants guys to leave money on the table and be loyal to the team, then he needs to be loyal to his players. Im not saying he hasn't been, but its not really sending the best message to the younger kids, "Do Well here and then go somewhere else and get paid".

Hopefully in the end a few of these guys stay. I love Crede and Dye, but one of them can go. Tadahito earned his 6.5 a year for 3 years, and Buehrle earned his 13-15 a year for 5. Pay them. Trade Vazquez if you have to clear the room for Buehrle. I just wonder if Kenny didn't get a little punch drunk after the world series and a little too trigger happy. Maybe he didn't realize HOW MUCH Thome and Vazquez would be costing as their deals went on. Throw that in with the unexpected Cub Bubble in the market, and he had to adjust.

Kenny's a good GM, and loading up I don't really have a problem with. I just wonder where this money WILL be spent. Financially Responsible is a fine thing, being cheap and stubborn isnt. The market in the next 2 years will determine which Kenny and JR is.

It's the same mentality JR had with the Bulls during their championship run......sign your players to contracts that are severly undervalue.

Look what happened with Scottie Pippen....he was under market value for most of his run in Chicago. Heck...Jordan didn't get his until his last few seasons when he was signing those one-year 30mil contracts.

Horace Grant wasn't given a good contract either and he eventually walked to the Orlando Magic.

All this was pre-salary cap in the NBA.

Now flash back to the 2007 Sox they're coming off a championship in the not too distant past and all the talk is about the market and a player's market value. The Sox are trying to get the most for their money they same way they did with the Bulls.

I don't have a problem with this strategy at all because the Sox did the same thing with Maggs and CLee. They didn't keep those two and earmarked their money to fill even more holes.

We were promised that the payroll would go up when attendance went up. It did. The Sox now have a payroll of over 100million.

They just won't go into the Yankees/Red Sox zone and have a 200million dollar payroll and I don't blame them. Why overpay and give a guy like Buehrle 18-20mil a year for 7 years when you could use that money to fill even more holes.

KW is trying to build for the future and possibly have an Atlanta Braves-style run of success.

At the same time I applaude him for not overpaying Buehrle and not putting the Sox in a situation where the have no choice but to overpay for mediocre players like Lily, Marquis, and Suppan.

Domeshot17
02-20-2007, 09:52 AM
It's the same mentality JR had with the Bulls during their championship run......sign your players to contracts that are severly undervalue.

Look what happened with Scottie Pippen....he was under market value for most of his run in Chicago. Heck...Jordan didn't get his until his last few seasons when he was signing those one-year 30mil contracts.

Horace Grant wasn't given a good contract either and he eventually walked to the Orlando Magic.

All this was pre-salary cap in the NBA.

Now flash back to the 2007 Sox they're coming off a championship in the not too distant past and all the talk is about the market and a player's market value. The Sox are trying to get the most for their money they same way they did with the Bulls.

I don't have a problem with this strategy at all because the Sox did the same thing with Maggs and CLee. They didn't keep those two and earmarked their money to fill even more holes.

We were promised that the payroll would go up when attendance went up. It did. The Sox now have a payroll of over 100million.

They just won't go into the Yankees/Red Sox zone and have a 200million dollar payroll and I don't blame them. Why overpay and give a guy like Buehrle 18-20mil a year for 7 years when you could use that money to fill even more holes.

KW is trying to build for the future and possibly have an Atlanta Braves-style run of success.

At the same time I applaude him for not overpaying Buehrle and not putting the Sox in a situation where the have no choice but to overpay for mediocre players like Lily, Marquis, and Suppan.

I completely agree. I don't think this is a full market right here. I think this was like when Arod and Mike Hampton hit. The best thing for GM's this year would be down years from Lilly Zito Marquis (if that is even possible) Soriano etc. I am not saying OVER PAY FOR EVERYONE. I hope I did not come off that way.

My problem is applying a system that has been used in the late 90's early 2000's in today's market. It is totally different. The Braves did a great job of replenishing their system over and over, but it never really equaled those CHAMPIONSHIPS. I guess I would rather really run hard for 3-4 years, and win 2 championships, then plug and fill the team every year and be good but never great. When you think of the Atlanta Braves (my favorite NL team) you think of Classy, Good teams. Some Super Stars, but the type that put the team first (minus Sheffield during his time). You respect them, but you never think of them as a Power House, which is sad with the division dominance they went on. Kind of like the Twins more recently, they have been the Central power for years, and no one cares, because they can't get it done in October, it took us 1 year to take away everything they did.

I just look at some of these guys, and I don't know how I feel. I love Sweeney, but he won't ever be Jermaine Dye. Fields will be awesome, but including his D and his clutch, He may never be Crede.

Truth be told I think the pitching is FINE for years to come. Contreras for a few more, Garland, Buehlre Vaz and Floyd this year. Then one of Danks/Gio/Sisco fills in for Buehlre. Broadway steps in for Vazquez, Im thinking Garland comes back (he already took the discount once, as long as we win, I think he stays). The pitchinig is like clockwork, Kenny has masterminded a brilliant plan. On top of all this, Masset may project to be a Front Line SP in the long run, which with the sick ability he has could be the best of any of the guys I named, present and future.


My fear is the offense. You have Konerko in his prime, Thome on the downside of his (and may be unable to stay healthy for a full year), Dye looking like what people always thought he would be, Crede showing signs of the player we have been waiting for, AJ being AJ, Iguchi setting the table in the 2 spot and Uribe and Anderson trying to find an indentiy as a hitter in the 8 9 with Pods setting all this up. Then, you talk about in 2 years having to replace our 1-2-3-7-8-9 hitters. You have versions of each who could be about 85% of the players they replace (Owens to Pods, Sweeney to Dye, Fields to Crede). We haven't been drafting hitters. Maybe we go get Arod if he opts out, maybe not. But the future of the offense needs to be addressed. I am more worried about losing Dye Iguchi and Crede then I am Buhrl's because we don't have the pieces to replace them.


Probably just used about 90000 words to say what 100 would do, sorry for the book.

lastly, the comment about Kenny and 2 years, he is putting his neck on the line. If the market turns around, he is brilliant. But in 2 more offseasons, we will know if this was a huge bubble in the market, or if this was just the new market emerging. If this was the new market, and we have to start shelling out, then we have to adjust to it. Now isn't the time to make that call, but it also isn't the time to totally overlook it.

caulfield12
02-20-2007, 09:54 AM
Here is my response, although I do agree with some of it.

Buehrle isn't worth Zito Money. Zito isn't worth Zito Money, No pitcher is, as good as they are, they play in roughly 20% of the games. Pitching is an odd position, its about as over rated and under rates as it comes. You need to have a good staff, but one pitcher doesn't make a staff, he can however, break one.

That being said, Buehrle is basically the ideal guy you break a the 3 year for. This is because you know he is (a) a horse (b) does not have an injury history and (c) Isn't a power pitcher, meaning he doesn't put the strain on his arm which could lead to injury. He is also young, and won't even be in his mid 30's when a 5 year deal would be up.

As much as I would love Santana, I don't know. I wouldn't trade Buehrle Dye Crede and Tadahito for him, and that is what you are doing when you say you will let them walk to make a run at him.

You are also putting ALL your eggs in one basket with this plan. You let Buehlre leave this year with Dye and Tadahito, and Crede in 2008, 3 of the 4 will be gone before Johan is even available to listen to an offer. Then you are saying the Yankees, with the room they may have save from Arod, won't come over the top and outbid us. So in the end, you could lose all 5.

I also don't like the message Kenny is sending. Kenny ask's his players to leave money on the table to play for the Sox. He did it with guys like Konerko, and the ones who didn't like Magglio walked. Now that didn't hurt us, but if Kenny wants guys to leave money on the table and be loyal to the team, then he needs to be loyal to his players. Im not saying he hasn't been, but its not really sending the best message to the younger kids, "Do Well here and then go somewhere else and get paid".

Hopefully in the end a few of these guys stay. I love Crede and Dye, but one of them can go. Tadahito earned his 6.5 a year for 3 years, and Buehrle earned his 13-15 a year for 5. Pay them. Trade Vazquez if you have to clear the room for Buehrle. I just wonder if Kenny didn't get a little punch drunk after the world series and a little too trigger happy. Maybe he didn't realize HOW MUCH Thome and Vazquez would be costing as their deals went on. Throw that in with the unexpected Cub Bubble in the market, and he had to adjust.

Kenny's a good GM, and loading up I don't really have a problem with. I just wonder where this money WILL be spent. Financially Responsible is a fine thing, being cheap and stubborn isnt. The market in the next 2 years will determine which Kenny and JR is.

If you look at the market for 2B, there are only a few players higher than $4 million per year....Utley, Castillo, Durham, Vidro (based on his being "healthy" and All-Star status).

Loretta was at $3,250,000 and the Red Sox preferred to go with an unproven rookie in Pedroia. Grudzielanek with the Royals is $4 million per season.

If KW's not shelling out money for Buehrle, Crede and Dye long-term, I doubt he pays an extra $2-3 million to retain Iguchi when he's in his mid 30's. Actually, I would prefer to get a front-line SS and move Uribe over there, as his offense would be less of a negative at that position.

Thome25
02-20-2007, 10:14 AM
I completely agree. I don't think this is a full market right here. I think this was like when Arod and Mike Hampton hit. The best thing for GM's this year would be down years from Lilly Zito Marquis (if that is even possible) Soriano etc. I am not saying OVER PAY FOR EVERYONE. I hope I did not come off that way.

My problem is applying a system that has been used in the late 90's early 2000's in today's market. It is totally different. The Braves did a great job of replenishing their system over and over, but it never really equaled those CHAMPIONSHIPS. I guess I would rather really run hard for 3-4 years, and win 2 championships, then plug and fill the team every year and be good but never great. When you think of the Atlanta Braves (my favorite NL team) you think of Classy, Good teams. Some Super Stars, but the type that put the team first (minus Sheffield during his time). You respect them, but you never think of them as a Power House, which is sad with the division dominance they went on. Kind of like the Twins more recently, they have been the Central power for years, and no one cares, because they can't get it done in October, it took us 1 year to take away everything they did.

I just look at some of these guys, and I don't know how I feel. I love Sweeney, but he won't ever be Jermaine Dye. Fields will be awesome, but including his D and his clutch, He may never be Crede.

Truth be told I think the pitching is FINE for years to come. Contreras for a few more, Garland, Buehlre Vaz and Floyd this year. Then one of Danks/Gio/Sisco fills in for Buehlre. Broadway steps in for Vazquez, Im thinking Garland comes back (he already took the discount once, as long as we win, I think he stays). The pitchinig is like clockwork, Kenny has masterminded a brilliant plan. On top of all this, Masset may project to be a Front Line SP in the long run, which with the sick ability he has could be the best of any of the guys I named, present and future.


My fear is the offense. You have Konerko in his prime, Thome on the downside of his (and may be unable to stay healthy for a full year), Dye looking like what people always thought he would be, Crede showing signs of the player we have been waiting for, AJ being AJ, Iguchi setting the table in the 2 spot and Uribe and Anderson trying to find an indentiy as a hitter in the 8 9 with Pods setting all this up. Then, you talk about in 2 years having to replace our 1-2-3-7-8-9 hitters. You have versions of each who could be about 85% of the players they replace (Owens to Pods, Sweeney to Dye, Fields to Crede). We haven't been drafting hitters. Maybe we go get Arod if he opts out, maybe not. But the future of the offense needs to be addressed. I am more worried about losing Dye Iguchi and Crede then I am Buhrl's because we don't have the pieces to replace them.


Probably just used about 90000 words to say what 100 would do, sorry for the book.

lastly, the comment about Kenny and 2 years, he is putting his neck on the line. If the market turns around, he is brilliant. But in 2 more offseasons, we will know if this was a huge bubble in the market, or if this was just the new market emerging. If this was the new market, and we have to start shelling out, then we have to adjust to it. Now isn't the time to make that call, but it also isn't the time to totally overlook it.

That's the thing. Alot of people are up in arms about the Sox not spending this offseason and possibly not spending the money to keep players like Buehrle and Dye.

But, I'm here to say: WHO CARES? I'd rather have us spend the money elsewhere rather than overpay Buehrle and give hi Zito money.

The naysayers are making the Sox out to be a bunch of tightwads. As far as the mediots are concerned, JR and KW are stealing the season ticket holders' money.

the payroll DID go up like the Sox promised. They just didn't go ape-**** with their wallet and overpay for mediocrity.

Look at teams that overpaid and got stuck with bad contracts.......Chan Ho Park, Darren Dreifort, Mike Hampton, Denny Neagle,......even Pat Burrell.

There's bound to be one of those bad apples in this year's bunch. I'm glad the Sox didn't bite.

Also, Who's to say the Sox are going to pocket all the money if Buehrle, Dye and Iguchi leave? They may spend it on someone better.....and fill even more holes.

caulfield12
02-20-2007, 10:41 AM
I completely agree. I don't think this is a full market right here. I think this was like when Arod and Mike Hampton hit. The best thing for GM's this year would be down years from Lilly Zito Marquis (if that is even possible) Soriano etc. I am not saying OVER PAY FOR EVERYONE. I hope I did not come off that way.

My problem is applying a system that has been used in the late 90's early 2000's in today's market. It is totally different. The Braves did a great job of replenishing their system over and over, but it never really equaled those CHAMPIONSHIPS. I guess I would rather really run hard for 3-4 years, and win 2 championships, then plug and fill the team every year and be good but never great. When you think of the Atlanta Braves (my favorite NL team) you think of Classy, Good teams. Some Super Stars, but the type that put the team first (minus Sheffield during his time). You respect them, but you never think of them as a Power House, which is sad with the division dominance they went on. Kind of like the Twins more recently, they have been the Central power for years, and no one cares, because they can't get it done in October, it took us 1 year to take away everything they did.

I just look at some of these guys, and I don't know how I feel. I love Sweeney, but he won't ever be Jermaine Dye. Fields will be awesome, but including his D and his clutch, He may never be Crede.

Truth be told I think the pitching is FINE for years to come. Contreras for a few more, Garland, Buehlre Vaz and Floyd this year. Then one of Danks/Gio/Sisco fills in for Buehlre. Broadway steps in for Vazquez, Im thinking Garland comes back (he already took the discount once, as long as we win, I think he stays). The pitchinig is like clockwork, Kenny has masterminded a brilliant plan. On top of all this, Masset may project to be a Front Line SP in the long run, which with the sick ability he has could be the best of any of the guys I named, present and future.


My fear is the offense. You have Konerko in his prime, Thome on the downside of his (and may be unable to stay healthy for a full year), Dye looking like what people always thought he would be, Crede showing signs of the player we have been waiting for, AJ being AJ, Iguchi setting the table in the 2 spot and Uribe and Anderson trying to find an indentiy as a hitter in the 8 9 with Pods setting all this up. Then, you talk about in 2 years having to replace our 1-2-3-7-8-9 hitters. You have versions of each who could be about 85% of the players they replace (Owens to Pods, Sweeney to Dye, Fields to Crede). We haven't been drafting hitters. Maybe we go get Arod if he opts out, maybe not. But the future of the offense needs to be addressed. I am more worried about losing Dye Iguchi and Crede then I am Buhrl's because we don't have the pieces to replace them.


Probably just used about 90000 words to say what 100 would do, sorry for the book.

lastly, the comment about Kenny and 2 years, he is putting his neck on the line. If the market turns around, he is brilliant. But in 2 more offseasons, we will know if this was a huge bubble in the market, or if this was just the new market emerging. If this was the new market, and we have to start shelling out, then we have to adjust to it. Now isn't the time to make that call, but it also isn't the time to totally overlook it.

2005 proved we could win with less offense, as long as we had timely hitting, fundamentals, great starting pitching and the bullpen to lock those close games down.

With our vaunted offense, we still couldn't do anything the final 2 months of the season...Thome wasn't himself, Crede was so-so...we just couldn't manufacture a run or two to save our lives, especially those games at Fenway Park that were so crucial to our falling out of the race.

Taking away Maggs, Lee, Valentin and Thomas (more or less) from the 2004 team and NOBODY thought we could win. Still, we admirably plugged those holes and the starting pitching carried us for most of the season.

If the next two or three Sox teams have ERA's below 4.00, we should be in great shape with the bullpen that we possess (on paper).

PennStater98r
02-20-2007, 11:01 AM
We're going to have a lot of openings soon.

We have to replace JD's production (or re-sign him) - that won't be easy.

Am I the only one that thinks JD played way above his head last year? I just don't see him putting those numbers up again. Which means even if we still resign JD, we're still going to be looking to replace his 2006 production.

rdivaldi
02-20-2007, 11:08 AM
Am I the only one that thinks JD played way above his head last year? I just don't see him putting those numbers up again. Which means even if we still resign JD, we're still going to be looking to replace his 2006 production.

I don't think that he played way over his head, but I wouldn't be surprised if last year ends up being the best of his career. Don't forget how well Dye was playing for the Royals before he had his fluke run of injuries. The guy has the ability to hit 35- 40 homers and a decent average.

skobabe8
02-20-2007, 11:59 AM
Who?

Out of the 3 in question, Iguchi leaving would hurt the most IMO.

caulfield12
02-20-2007, 12:30 PM
Out of the 3 in question, Iguchi leaving would hurt the most IMO.


But there are probably 10-12 second basemen with similar skills who could be signed for $2-3 million per season instead of $4-7 million per season. In fact, KW might already be thinking of moving Cintron over there and saving $4-5 million with that move, or possibly Ozuna.

I agree, I think if he leaves, we'll miss Iguchi more than we realize ONCE he's no longer on the team.

skobabe8
02-20-2007, 12:45 PM
But there are probably 10-12 second basemen with similar skills who could be signed for $2-3 million per season instead of $4-7 million per season. In fact, KW might already be thinking of moving Cintron over there and saving $4-5 million with that move, or possibly Ozuna.

I agree, I think if he leaves, we'll miss Iguchi more than we realize ONCE he's no longer on the team.

Iguchi just does so many things that dont show up in the boxscore. I know Hawk says that alot, but I've thought that since he's been here. Plus the fact that 2b has been a revolving door since Ray Durham, I really want to hang on to a good thing like Iguchi.

getonbckthr
02-20-2007, 12:51 PM
Looking at potential free agents at 2b next season there is Giles, Loretta, Castillo and Kent. Some older some more expensive but the fact is 2b is not a hard spot to fill. Hell a solid player like Ronnie Belliard couldn't find a team to sign with because of the depth of the position.

caulfield12
02-20-2007, 12:53 PM
Iguchi just does so many things that dont show up in the boxscore. I know Hawk says that alot, but I've thought that since he's been here. Plus the fact that 2b has been a revolving door since Ray Durham, I really want to hang on to a good thing like Iguchi.

Jimenez
Roberto Alomar
Willie Harris
Graffanino
Aaron Miles

caulfield12
02-20-2007, 12:55 PM
Looking at potential free agents at 2b next season there is Giles, Loretta, Castillo and Kent. Some older some more expensive but the fact is 2b is not a hard spot to fill. Hell a solid player like Ronnie Belliard couldn't find a team to sign with because of the depth of the position.

I think KW wants a player under 30 years old...he might go out and make a trade this season and bring another 2B in from outside the organization.

Younger, faster, stronger, cheaper!!!

jdm2662
02-20-2007, 01:23 PM
It's the same mentality JR had with the Bulls during their championship run......sign your players to contracts that are severly undervalue.

Look what happened with Scottie Pippen....he was under market value for most of his run in Chicago. Heck...Jordan didn't get his until his last few seasons when he was signing those one-year 30mil contracts.

Horace Grant wasn't given a good contract either and he eventually walked to the Orlando Magic.

All this was pre-salary cap in the NBA.



Not that this matters in the discussion but...

The NBA has had a salary cap since the early 1980s.

Horace Grant was offered more money with the Bulls than Orlando offered. Not much more, but he didn't jump because of money. Hell, the POS went on record saying he would LOVE to play in Orlando the day the Bull were playing them! After being eaten alive by Oakley in the playoffs that season, I didn't cry when he bolted.

As for the issue at hand, I really don't have a problem with letting the season play out. We don't know what's going to happen, and Williams is trying to keep the team competitive for years to come not just 2007. However, like the Bulls run, it is going to be rather annoying when all people want to know is he coming back, is he coming back, etc.

soxfanatlanta
02-20-2007, 01:36 PM
Out of the 3 in question, Iguchi leaving would hurt the most IMO.

I agree; Iguchi-san has done everything asked of him, without complaints. As other posters wrote, I like his stability at the position and his professional attitude. A great value, indeed.

maurice
02-20-2007, 02:37 PM
I'm suprised no one in this thread has mentioned the way Konerko's situation played out. He was willing to sign an extension going into '05, but KW said no, Let's wait untill the end of the season. Williams publicly said the same thing then as he is now; that Konerko owed it to himself to see what offers he could get from other teams. That strategy played out just fine.

I agree. It seems to me that KW is dealing with these guys the same way that he dealt with Konerko, and that worked out fine. We had to listen all year to "Konerko is a sure goner" storylines, just like we're now listening to "Buehrle, Dye, Iguchi (+ Garland, Vazquez, Contreras) are all gone" storylines. It was premature then, and it's premature now. Just the media looking for an unoriginal way of harping on the Sox while giving the other team a relative free pass on the Zambrano situation.

Keep in mind that KW had a very good reason to keep Konerko waiting in 2005. Hindsight is 20/20, but nobody knew in advance how he would perform in 2005 and 2006. The same is true of Buehrle and Dye this year. We all hope that Dye continues to perform well and that Buehrle bounces back, but it might not happen. Dye's healthy streak may come to an end, and Buehrle might continue to blow. Until the season is played, nobody knows where they will stand relative to the rest of the FA class or how much money / years the market will dictate. As recently as yesterday, I heard KW reiterate on TV that he thinks the FA market will crash, because teams already have all of their future money committed.

The media of course is free to disagree, but please stop pretending that these arguments do not exist or that similar considerations do not apply to Zambrano, the Chicago player most likely to sign a HUGE deal after the season ends. Lastly, please stop harping on what will happen after the season ends. There's plenty of more pertinent stuff (both positive and negative) to talk about during Spring Training and during the 162+ games that count before these deals expire. Heck, if Buehrle, Dye, and Iguchi all excel in 2007 and justify huge contracts, the Sox probably will end up in the post-season . . . just like Konerko in 2005. Wouldn't that be awful?

balke
02-20-2007, 02:54 PM
Until the season is played, nobody knows where they will stand relative to the rest of the FA class or how much money / years the market will dictate. As recently as yesterday, I heard KW reiterate on TV that he thinks the FA market will crash, because teams already have all of their future money committed.

The media of course is free to disagree, but please stop pretending that these arguments do not exist or that similar considerations do not apply to Zambrano, the Chicago player most likely to sign a HUGE deal after the season ends. Lastly, please stop harping on what will happen after the season ends. There's plenty of more pertinent stuff (both positive and negative) to talk about during Spring Training and during the 162+ games that count before these deals expire. Heck, if Buehrle, Dye, and Iguchi all excel in 2007 and justify huge contracts, the Sox probably will end up in the post-season . . . just like Konerko in 2005. Wouldn't that be awful?



I could see the market crashing a bit. I agree that this season is what's important. Get two titles in 3 years, and success will surely stick with this team. We gotta own this division, if everyone has the years they are capable of, we should own the division. I hope Buehrle leads us there.

Lprof
02-20-2007, 08:11 PM
I agree. Instead of saying that the players owe it to themselves to get as much as they could get, he could have just said something along the lines of "we think the market is pretty crazy right now and we certainly can't stop our players from exploring it, but we will do our best to make competitive offers to keep the ones who want to stay here once that time comes."

In regard to contract discussions during the season, he could have just said "we don't want our players to be distracted."

KW has a problem picking the right words for delicate situations. So does Ozzie obviously, but at least Ozzie is forthright. He'll either say he likes a player and wants him back or he'll say he's a (insert Nationality here) piece of **** and tell him to worry about playing for the (insert new team here). Kenny isn't supposed to be as emotionally driven as Ozzie with him being the GM. He's supposed to think about what he says before he says it.

Unfortuantely, I am afraid that this goes far deeper than simply a choice of words. There seems to have been something of a change in the DNA down at the cell, and I just don't get it. Don't they WANT 3 million fans to keep coming out? It sure isn't going to happen if we start going on the cheap. To us, the market looks "crazy," but you don't get to run a team by being consistently crazy. The Sox are starting to sound ominously like a small market team again. I am completely mystified. :(:

oeo
02-20-2007, 11:46 PM
Attendance up.............Small market attitude remains

:bs:

Name a small market team that has a $100 million payroll.

Nice try.

soxtalker
02-21-2007, 12:00 AM
:bs:

Name a small market team that has a $100 million payroll.

Nice try.

I must admit that I don't understand the concern that a number of WSI members have mentioned about the payroll dropping if KW doesn't re-sign some of our veterans. I suppose that there's a chance of that happening, but it isn't the most likely scenario. There will always be players out there who would be candidates for acquisition if there is extra money in the salary budget. The bigger problem is the reverse -- not having any flexibility because you are committed to paying players on long-term contracts who are no longer productive. That's probably what the Cubs are going to run into in a few short years.

Soxfest
02-21-2007, 11:56 PM
:bs:

Name a small market team that has a $100 million payroll.

Nice try.


As far as big name free agents since A.Belle there has been none!

Frontman
02-22-2007, 12:02 AM
As far as big name free agents since A.Belle there has been none!

And who was the big name FA who led the team to the championship in 05?

Free Agent nor huge payroll does a championship make.

Lprof
02-22-2007, 12:16 AM
:bs:

Name a small market team that has a $100 million payroll.

Nice try.
You're missing the point. A small market team trades a 17 game winner for a couple of unproven minor leaguers; a small market team makes few if any major moves to improve itself for the pennant race; a small market team says before the year that it won't sign three of its top tier free agents because they can't compete in the current marketplace; a small market team loses a top player because it won't deal with his tough agent. This off season has been a textbook illustration of a small market team. I really don't care what their payroll is.:(:

Lprof
02-22-2007, 12:22 AM
That's the thing. Alot of people are up in arms about the Sox not spending this offseason and possibly not spending the money to keep players like Buehrle and Dye.

But, I'm here to say: WHO CARES? I'd rather have us spend the money elsewhere rather than overpay Buehrle and give hi Zito money.

The naysayers are making the Sox out to be a bunch of tightwads. As far as the mediots are concerned, JR and KW are stealing the season ticket holders' money.

the payroll DID go up like the Sox promised. They just didn't go ape-**** with their wallet and overpay for mediocrity.

Look at teams that overpaid and got stuck with bad contracts.......Chan Ho Park, Darren Dreifort, Mike Hampton, Denny Neagle,......even Pat Burrell.

There's bound to be one of those bad apples in this year's bunch. I'm glad the Sox didn't bite.

Also, Who's to say the Sox are going to pocket all the money if Buehrle, Dye and Iguchi leave? They may spend it on someone better.....and fill even more holes.
My biggest problem is that for a team that was very close last year, what you want to do in the off season is hold on to what you have and add in key spots; the Sox did not do either.

caulfield12
02-22-2007, 03:39 AM
You're missing the point. A small market team trades a 17 game winner for a couple of unproven minor leaguers; a small market team makes few if any major moves to improve itself for the pennant race; a small market team says before the year that it won't sign three of its top tier free agents because they can't compete in the current marketplace; a small market team loses a top player because it won't deal with his tough agent. This off season has been a textbook illustration of a small market team. I really don't care what their payroll is.:(:

Lprof, we acted like a "big market" team in 2001 and 2002, trading for David Wells, Clayton, signing Lofton, adding Todd Ritchie and Koch, what did it get us?

In what way were we acting like a "big market team" coming into 2005?

We had Takatsu, an unconventional closer, to start the season.

We signed Dye, AJ, Iguchi, Hermanson and traded for El Duque. All of these were "bargain basement" free agents with severe question marks attached, none similar to the Soriano signing for the Cubs.

We had Carl Everett as our DH. Most clubs thought he was past his usefulness around the 2001/02 season.

We dumped the heart of our offense (besides Konerko) in letting Magglio go (Dye was CHEAPER), not paying Carlos Lee (Pods and Vizcaino CHEAPER) and letting Jose Valentin go (more expensive vet).

Frontman
02-22-2007, 09:05 AM
And up until opening day, there still might be moves made. We can only speculate on payroll, as that information also won't be clearly defined until opening day.

I'm all for being worked up, but getting worked up with half-information isn't going to get us anywhere.

Lprof
02-22-2007, 09:45 AM
Lprof, we acted like a "big market" team in 2001 and 2002, trading for David Wells, Clayton, signing Lofton, adding Todd Ritchie and Koch, what did it get us?

In what way were we acting like a "big market team" coming into 2005?

We had Takatsu, an unconventional closer, to start the season.

We signed Dye, AJ, Iguchi, Hermanson and traded for El Duque. All of these were "bargain basement" free agents with severe question marks attached, none similar to the Soriano signing for the Cubs.

We had Carl Everett as our DH. Most clubs thought he was past his usefulness around the 2001/02 season.


We dumped the heart of our offense (besides Konerko) in letting Magglio go (Dye was CHEAPER), not paying Carlos Lee (Pods and Vizcaino CHEAPER) and letting Jose Valentin go (more expensive vet).

Look, I know anything can happen in a long season. But I was far more optimistic coming into 2005 than I am now. We could still win the division. However, my main problem is a philosophical one: When you are close with a veteran team, you don't trade established pitching for kids who aren't expected to help this year. That is like trying to swim half way across a river. Hopefully, KW will make me look like an idiot.

caulfield12
02-22-2007, 10:01 AM
Look, I know anything can happen in a long season. But I was far more optimistic coming into 2005 than I am now. We could still win the division. However, my main problem is a philosophical one: When you are close with a veteran team, you don't trade established pitching for kids who aren't expected to help this year. That is like trying to swim half way across a river. Hopefully, KW will make me look like an idiot.

Lprof,

Were you more comfortable coming into the season with McCarthy as the fifth starter?

What veteran starter would you have acquired, for insurance, if you weren't?

What SS, LF or CF was available that would have been a clear upgrade (not too expensive, not having to give up our young pitching) for Uribe and Ozuna/Mack/Pods/Anderson/Erstad?

Who would you have acquired, instead of Erstad? Would you have accepted the Garland/Astros deal that would have brought us Taveras? Would Taveras be a clear upgrade over what we already have?

Would you have preferred to keep Garcia and trade McCarthy?

Would you have kept the team together "as is" and made the Hall move?

Lprof
02-22-2007, 01:41 PM
Lprof,

Were you more comfortable coming into the season with McCarthy as the fifth starter?

What veteran starter would you have acquired, for insurance, if you weren't?

What SS, LF or CF was available that would have been a clear upgrade (not too expensive, not having to give up our young pitching) for Uribe and Ozuna/Mack/Pods/Anderson/Erstad?

Who would you have acquired, instead of Erstad? Would you have accepted the Garland/Astros deal that would have brought us Taveras? Would Taveras be a clear upgrade over what we already have?

Would you have preferred to keep Garcia and trade McCarthy?

Would you have kept the team together "as is" and made the Hall move?
Very good questions. First off, I wouldn't have traded anybody unless I was getting something back that was likely to help me this year by filling needs revealed by the end of last season. If I was going to trade Freddy, then, it would only have been if we were going to get back a solid center or left fielder, a top or bottom of the order kind of guy. Otherwise, I simply would have kept him. The same for McCarthy: I wouldn't have traded him unless we were getting back something that was going to help this year. But I surely wouldn't have traded both of them and gotten back absolutely no one expected to help us this year (hopefully, of course, someone is going to surprise us by making a large contribution earlier than expected, but you don't go into a trade for a contending team on the assumption that will happen). Once I traded Freddy, I wouldn't have traded McCarthy (unless there was some negative about him fans weren't told about, of course). He showed at the end of 2005 that he had promise as a very solid starter. I certainly wouldn't have traded Garland for anybody--and the fact that KW even seriously considered it puzzles me greatly--who the heck was going to pitch, if we planned to contend this year? Erstad is fine, but hardly enough to make up the differences between us and the Tigers. They won last year and they added Sheffield; we had a terrible second half, and all we add is Erstad?

getonbckthr
02-22-2007, 01:48 PM
You're missing the point. A small market team trades a 17 game winner for a couple of unproven minor leaguers; a small market team makes few if any major moves to improve itself for the pennant race; a small market team says before the year that it won't sign three of its top tier free agents because they can't compete in the current marketplace; a small market team loses a top player because it won't deal with his tough agent. This off season has been a textbook illustration of a small market team. I really don't care what their payroll is.:(:
So you would rather waste 55 million on Gil Meche? Or wait until after the season and have Garcia and Buerhle both walk because they aren't worth 15 million a year and we get nothing for either of them? Kenny is both preparing his team to win this year, and in the future. He is also avoiding putting us in salary hell by signing players to rediculous contracts that are impossible to match with production. In Kenny we trust and so should you.

Lprof
02-22-2007, 02:14 PM
So you would rather waste 55 million on Gil Meche? Or wait until after the season and have Garcia and Buerhle both walk because they aren't worth 15 million a year and we get nothing for either of them? Kenny is both preparing his team to win this year, and in the future. He is also avoiding putting us in salary hell by signing players to rediculous contracts that are impossible to match with production. In Kenny we trust and so should you.
But that's the point: You CAN"T really prepare both for this year and the future, when you have a veteran team. First off, I'm not sure the Sox should let both of them walk, assuming they have good years. Other teams aren't idiots; if they are willing to pay the freight, why aren't the Sox? But even if you do let them walk, then you sign other free agents. If you can't compete in the marketplace, ala Bill Veeck, then get the heck out of the market. But IF I was going to trade them, it would have been for folks who are more likely to help this year than the guys they got (at least as far as I can assess the situation--again, hopefully I am wrong about this). Can you honestly say that the team about to start the season is as good or better than the team that ended the year (and even that wasn't enough to win)?

ewokpelts
02-22-2007, 02:34 PM
:bs:

Name a small market team that has a $100 million payroll.

Nice try.notice he said small market ATTITUDE......

SBSoxFan
02-22-2007, 03:13 PM
Erstad is fine, but hardly enough to make up the differences between us and the Tigers. They won last year and they added Sheffield; we had a terrible second half, and all we add is Erstad?

The Sox won in 2005 and added Thome AND Vazquez for 2006. I think Detroit is going to be the one who needs to make up a difference!

tomgordon1
02-22-2007, 05:46 PM
http://www.suntimes.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/262065,CST-SPT-sox18.article

into "now KW doesn't want to keep Buehrle, Dye OR Iguchi. They can't afford Iguchi. WHAT?"

Well, now they've added Tad into the soap opera, and they're trying to add Vazquez as well, even though the White Sox still have the rights to his services for 2008.


That's ridiculous. Now I have to say, Buehrle is starting to drive me crazy. Seriously, baseball shouldn't be about money. Heck, I wouldn't mind playing right field for 350,000. But if he turns down an offer previously, for 3 years, 34 million, that's not right. But we need to keep Dye. He's key to the team and we can't lose him. Also, Iguchi still needs more time in the MLB so I can't say we should or should not keep him. But if Mark is going to act childish with his contract, then so be it. He can go to the Cardinals like he always dreamed of. And once he leaves, he will regret it big time. Being with the Sox is something special.