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WS in 05
02-14-2007, 07:02 PM
http://www.suntimes.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/256194,CST-SPT-sox14.article

Not only will Buehrle's streak of five consecutive Opening Day starts end on April 2 when the Sox host Cleveland, but as it sits right now he has slipped to the No. 3 spot in the starting rotation.



And to think that the 3rd game of the year will be my 21st birthday. I will only be able to buy myself 4 beers before the 7th innining:(: ....

WhiteSox5187
02-14-2007, 07:08 PM
I guess that sounds about right, but pitching on Opening Day is really more of a ceremonial honor than anything else and Buerhle has earned that right...I don't think that Jose is our ace, I think that belongs to Garland and I think that by the end of the season Jose is going to be our number three starter.

chisoxmike
02-14-2007, 07:08 PM
Buehrle should be the #1.

Daver
02-14-2007, 07:10 PM
Buehrle should be the #1.

Based on what?

soxfanatlanta
02-14-2007, 07:13 PM
Based on what?

Great question. If he wants that coveted #1 spot, them let him earn it for October (no pink needed).

munchman33
02-14-2007, 07:15 PM
Buehrle should be the #1.

According to who? To me, your statement is pretty ridiculous.

chisoxmike
02-14-2007, 07:18 PM
Based on what?

Why not? Garland was the only starter last season that had a consistant season in 2006 - or the closest to one.

It wasn't Buehrle that was the only weak link on the staff last year, Contreras wasn't exactly stellar all season last year either.

But that's just me.

PKalltheway
02-14-2007, 07:18 PM
Sad to see Buehrle drop in the rotation, as he was our best pitcher. Hopefully this will motivate him and he'll have an awesome comeback year this year.

skobabe8
02-14-2007, 07:20 PM
Buehrle should be the #1.

I gotta agree. I dont think opening day starter has to be based on stats. Burls is one of the team leaders and I think starting him april 2 says alot about last year being an exception for him, not the norm. I have liked the 'routine' of him starting opening day the last few years and I think showing confidence in him after a rough '06 would go a long way. But thats just me.

oeo
02-14-2007, 07:22 PM
Based on what?

Respect.

chisoxmike
02-14-2007, 07:23 PM
Respect.

...and that too.

Daver
02-14-2007, 07:24 PM
Why not? Garland was the only starter last season that had a consistant season in 2006 - or the closest to one.

It wasn't Buehrle that was the only weak link on the staff last year, Contreras was exactly stellar all season last year either.

But that's just me.

Buehrle was awful after the All Star break, getting off to a slow start is one thing, completely tanking at midseason means there are other, more serious issues. You play to win the game, and you set your rotation based on who gives you the best chance to win against the opposition.

munchman33
02-14-2007, 07:32 PM
Respect.

I'd rather win on opening day.

oeo
02-14-2007, 07:32 PM
Buehrle was awful after the All Star break, getting off to a slow start is one thing, completely tanking at midseason means there are other, more serious issues. You play to win the game, and you set your rotation based on who gives you the best chance to win against the opposition.

Then why is this being set now? Before Spring Training when we do not even know what we will get from any of our pitchers. If you want to set it up for your best chance to win, then it should be done after we see who our best pitcher is going to be.

I'd rather win on opening day.

And again, how do you know that Contreras will be our best pitcher? None of them have even thrown a pitch in Spring Training yet. Let's hold off the, Buehrle doesn't give us a chance to win comments.

chisoxmike
02-14-2007, 07:33 PM
Buehrle was awful after the All Star break, getting off to a slow start is one thing, completely tanking at midseason means there are other, more serious issues. You play to win the game, and you set your rotation based on who gives you the best chance to win against the opposition.


I understand he was awful after the break, I didn't say he wasn't, but so was the whole team.

I just don't think any of the starters are deserving of #1 status for the '07 club and I don't see how Contreras will be a marginal improvement over Mark.

ilsox7
02-14-2007, 07:34 PM
Then why is this being set now? Before Spring Training when we do not even know what we will get from any of our pitchers. If you want to set it up for your best chance to win, then it should be done after we see who our best pitcher is going to be.



And again, how do you know that Contreras will be our best pitcher? None of them have even thrown a pitch in Spring Training yet. Let's hold off the, Buehrle doesn't give us a chance to win comments.

Cooper clearly says that he bases the entire spring program for each pitcher based on when they will start the season. He works backwards. I do not see how this is a big deal. MB was the worst pitcher in MLB for a few months last year.

oeo
02-14-2007, 07:38 PM
Cooper clearly says that he bases the entire spring program for each pitcher based on when they will start the season. He works backwards. I do not see how this is a big deal. MB was the worst pitcher in MLB for a few months last year.

It's not a huge deal to me. I just feel that we should give the ball to the guy that has been the heart and soul of the rotation for his entire career.

But I'm still going to ask the question, how do some of you know that Contreras will give us a better chance to win on opening day? That's a terrible excuse, because you don't. Contreras was not very hot after he went on the DL early in the season, and had to miss his last couple of starts due to injury. The Buehrle doesn't give us a chance to win is complete garbage...have you seen the future?

rdwj
02-14-2007, 07:40 PM
Sorry, I love Buehrle, but there is no way he should be pitching opening day. The respect thing is crap. We need to come out of the gate strong and Buehrle doesn't give us the best chance to win - that's enough for me.

dcb56
02-14-2007, 07:40 PM
Sad to see Buehrle drop in the rotation, as he was our best pitcher. Hopefully this will motivate him and he'll have an awesome comeback year this year.

I'm sure the prospect of an eight, possibly nine, figure contract next offseason will motivate Buehrle to bounce back much more than getting bumped from the #1 starting slot at the beginning of this season ever will...

TDog
02-14-2007, 07:40 PM
Attaching numbers to starting pitchers is irrelevant, and people make too much out of what order pitchers take in the rotation. Whoever is pitching the best at any given time will be considered the No. 1 starter. Matchups against the other teams' pitchers are irrelevant as well because even at the end of the first week of the season you are likely to see some team's fifth pitcher in the rotation going up against another team's opening day pitcher.

If Buehrle looks like he has it most together at the end of spring training, I expect he will start on opening day.

chisoxmike
02-14-2007, 07:41 PM
Sorry, I love Buehrle, but there is no way he should be pitching opening day. The respect thing is crap. We need to come out of the gate strong and Buehrle doesn't give us the best chance to win - that's enough for me.

So how much do we win by on April 2, 2007?

oeo
02-14-2007, 07:41 PM
Sorry, I love Buehrle, but there is no way he should be pitching opening day. The respect thing is crap. We need to come out of the gate strong and Buehrle doesn't give us the best chance to win - that's enough for me.

Another one...

How do you know this? Respect is crap, but predicting the future is not?

rdwj
02-14-2007, 07:42 PM
So how much do we win by on April 2, 2007?

By one is enough for me

skobabe8
02-14-2007, 07:48 PM
I like Mark starting against a team we've beaten the last 2 opening days that he has started.

MrRoboto83
02-14-2007, 07:52 PM
By one is enough for me


I expect nothing less of a 10-1 blow out.

rdwj
02-14-2007, 07:54 PM
Another one...

How do you know this? Respect is crap, but predicting the future is not?

Let's at least see how he starts in spring before anointing him. If he's anything like the end of last year, he's got more to worry about than staring on opening day.

I want Mark to take it one step at a time - first step - don't suck! After that, we can talk

Railsplitter
02-14-2007, 08:13 PM
Garland was our most consistant starter last year, he should get the nod.

JB98
02-14-2007, 08:16 PM
Buerhle sucks against the Indians. He throws much better against the Twins. IMO, Mark shouldn't be starting that first series at all. Let him open the second series of the year against Minnesota.

Vazquez actually pitched well in two or three games against the Tribe last season. I'm no friend of Javy, but I'd give him the nod in the third game.

jabrch
02-14-2007, 08:18 PM
Who's the #1, #2, #3 is one of the dumbest Spring Training discussions every year. It means almost nothing to anyone.

Dan the Man
02-14-2007, 08:20 PM
You play to win the game...

http://www.cantstopthebleeding.com/img/edwards1.jpg

Hello!?

rdwj
02-14-2007, 08:22 PM
Who's the #1, #2, #3 is one of the dumbest Spring Training discussions every year. It means almost nothing to anyone.

realistically - almost EVERYTHING we discuss here means almost nothing to no one.

skobabe8
02-14-2007, 08:24 PM
realistically - almost EVERYTHING we discuss here means almost nothing to no one.

LOL....What about green seats??? ^^^^^^^Couldnt agree more.

itsnotrequired
02-14-2007, 08:25 PM
realistically - almost EVERYTHING we discuss here means almost nothing to no one.

I understand there is an awed hush when people read my posts.

:redneck

HomeFish
02-14-2007, 08:29 PM
Good. If Buehrle wants to be the #1 starter, he should start playing well again.

cws05champ
02-14-2007, 08:36 PM
Sorry, I love Buehrle, but there is no way he should be pitching opening day. The respect thing is crap. We need to come out of the gate strong and Buehrle doesn't give us the best chance to win - that's enough for me.

If coming out of the gate strong is your criteria, let's look at last year: Buehrle's stats in April: 3-1 2.57 ERA, BAA .206 in 35 innings.

You know it wasn't long ago that Buehrle was our unquestioned #1 guy and reliable start after start. Let's give him a mulligan for the 2nd half of last year. He should be the opening day starter if he pitches well in spring.

rdwj
02-14-2007, 08:38 PM
He should be the opening day starter if he pitches well in spring.

If he does, and I HOPE he does, I might have a change of opinion.

Grzegorz
02-14-2007, 08:45 PM
Respect.

Respect doesn't get it done. Buehrle didn't pitch that well last year and this is the consequence.

Maybe this will provide some motivation for the young lad.

oeo
02-14-2007, 09:27 PM
Respect doesn't get it done. Buehrle didn't pitch that well last year and this is the consequence.

Maybe this will provide some motivation for the young lad.

It may give you a pretty good discount when you're trying to re-sign one of the better left-handed pitchers in the game. Whatever, though, who cares about respect?

DumpJerry
02-14-2007, 09:29 PM
This will lower his contract price.

gobears1987
02-14-2007, 09:30 PM
If I were to rank the starters on the White Sox, Buehrle would be #3. Even if he has a good consistent season, Garland and Contreras just have better stuff.

This is coming from a huge Buehrle fan who went out and spent $100+ on a Buehrle jersey.

98navigator
02-14-2007, 09:31 PM
Cooper clearly says that he bases the entire spring program for each pitcher based on when they will start the season. He works backwards. I do not see how this is a big deal. MB was the worst pitcher in MLB for a few months last year.

I read that and I don't buy Cooper's excuse. If he works backwards then why is he hedging on Garland and Buehrle's position as 2 & 3? Either he has a set way of setting the rotation "backwards" or not. I think Ozzie is just trying to punish Mark. It's funny how Mark opened last year...

Suntimes (http://www.suntimes.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/256194,CST-SPT-sox14.article)

''Ozzie gave this to me a while ago,'' pitching coach Don Cooper said of the rotation order Tuesday. ''I have everything mapped out, working backward from the regular season to spring training and as it stands right now it's Jose Contreras, Jon Garland, Buehrle, Javier Vazquez and then whoever steps up and grabs that No. 5 spot.'' Cooper was adamant that Buehrle and Garland could be flip-flopped if need be, but Guillen wanted to reward Contreras and Garland for what they've accomplished since the second half of the 2005 season.

HotelWhiteSox
02-14-2007, 09:35 PM
I wonder if it is set in stone or if they'll also take the spring into account.

At first I didn't care, I would've rather given it to Garland to be honest, but then I thought about it, 5 years in today's age of baseball and sports is pretty good. And I could see his point if Buehrle takes it as a slap in the face or being punished for the whole contract thing. It's all about respect,since it's irrelevant from a baseball standpoint and the top 3 is going to face the same team

gobears1987
02-14-2007, 09:35 PM
Vazquez actually pitched well in two or three games against the Tribe last season. I'm no friend of Javy, but I'd give him the nod in the third game.
That he did. While I saw Vaz go 0-2 in games I witnessed him pitch, he got no run support in the game I saw him pitch against the Indians. If anyone besides Iguchi decided to hit the day and the pen didn't explode, Vaz would've gotten a win. I'm no fan of Vaz and I'm saying this.

gobears1987
02-14-2007, 09:37 PM
I wonder if it is set in stone or if they'll also take the spring into account.


Last year before Spring Ozzie said he wanted to start Contreras. Buehrle ended up starting anyways. The year before, Ozzie wanted to start Loaiza. Buehrle ended up starting. I think I'm noticing a pattern here.

viagracat
02-14-2007, 09:39 PM
If Buehrle looks like he has it most together at the end of spring training, I expect he will start on opening day.

I agree. Way too early to lock in an Opening Day starter. Maybe the announcement that JC was the starter was nothing but a motivational ploy.

ilsox7
02-14-2007, 09:44 PM
I read that and I don't buy Cooper's excuse. If he works backwards then why is he hedging on Garland and Buehrle's position as 2 & 3? Either he has a set way of setting the rotation "backwards" or not. I think Ozzie is just trying to punish Mark. It's funny how Mark opened last year...

Suntimes (http://www.suntimes.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/256194,CST-SPT-sox14.article)

The bottom line is that it does not really matter. The Sox do not skip the 5th spot, so these guys are going to go out there every 5th day regardless of their spot in the rotation. This is just people wanting to bitch about something doing so.

98navigator
02-14-2007, 09:53 PM
The bottom line is that it does not really matter. The Sox do not skip the 5th spot, so these guys are going to go out there every 5th day regardless of their spot in the rotation. This is just people wanting to bitch about something doing so.

While I agree that it ultimately doesn't matter, it is obviously a symbolic change. It's as if the Sox are divorcing themselves from Buehrle as leader of the staff. More importantly, if it really doesn't matter, in which order they pitch, then why does a change need to be made?

ilsox7
02-14-2007, 09:54 PM
While I agree that it ultimately doesn't matter, it is obviously a symbolic change. It's as if the Sox are divorcing themselves from Buehrle as leader of the staff. More importantly, if it really doesn't matter, in which order they pitch, then why does a change need to be made?

MB pitched like a minor leaguer for 3 months last year. He has plenty to prove. If he proves what he needs to, he'll be back at the top of the rotation.

98navigator
02-14-2007, 09:57 PM
MB pitched like a minor leaguer for 3 months last year. He has plenty to prove. If he proves what he needs to, he'll be back at the top of the rotation.

I can't argue his struggles but Contreras had a poor second half as well. I just don't understand it; the only way a change could be justified, in my eyes, is if Garland was pitching on opening day.

ilsox7
02-14-2007, 10:16 PM
I can't argue his struggles but Contreras had a poor second half as well. I just don't understand it; the only way a change could be justified, in my eyes, is if Garland was pitching on opening day.

JC's poor performance was mainly attributed to injury. MB's was attributed to general sucktitude and apparently not being in the best shape.

FedEx227
02-14-2007, 10:16 PM
I want to be 1-0. Screw respect/history. Fans make a bigger deal out of this then players.

I can't argue his struggles but Contreras had a poor second half as well. I just don't understand it; the only way a change could be justified, in my eyes, is if Garland was pitching on opening day.

Contreras was absolutely un-hittable from September 05-May 06. That's why he earned it. Buehrle pitched like a JUCO all year. Contreras gives us the best chance at winning which apparently doesn't matter to anyone anymore as long as Buehrle's feelings aren't hurt. He's a major league baseball player if he can't take not being the opening day starter then he needs to move on.

98navigator
02-14-2007, 10:19 PM
I want to be 1-0. Screw respect/history. Fans make a bigger deal out of this then players.



Contreras was absolutely un-hittable from September 05-May 06. That's why he earned it. Buehrle pitched like a JUCO all year. Contreras gives us the best chance at winning which apparently doesn't matter to anyone anymore as long as Buehrle's feelings aren't hurt. He's a major league baseball player if he can't take not being the opening day starter then he needs to move on.

It's a new year. Contreras starting doesn't guarantee a victory. If anybody is going to decline it's Jose. I expect MB to bounce back with a strong season.

santo=dorf
02-14-2007, 10:21 PM
I can't argue his struggles but Contreras had a poor second half as well. I just don't understand it; the only way a change could be justified, in my eyes, is if Garland was pitching on opening day.
Buehrle was in a league of his own in the second half last year
Player_ERA_ WHIP (2nd half)
Buehrle__6.44_1.87 :o:
Contreras_5.40_1.38
Vazquez_4.58_1.23
Garland_3.61_1.30
Garcia_4.12_1.15 (!)

98navigator
02-14-2007, 10:25 PM
Buehrle was in a league of his own in the second half last year
Player_ERA_ WHIP (2nd half)
Buehrle__6.44_1.87 :o:
Contreras_5.40_1.38
Vazquez_4.58_1.23
Garland_3.61_1.30
Garcia_4.12_1.15 (!)

And Jose was the second worst... Like I said before, I'd be all for Garland getting the start. In other news, I sure hope we can make up Freddy's 17 wins!!:mad:

MincHiaPettito
02-14-2007, 10:27 PM
Man, all you guys look at are the stats, all quantitative, when theres a lot more to the game than that. The last thing I want is more headgames with a pitcher we need to win when we dont have a 5th starter. I dont know how the starters morale is. 2 good starters are gone, Garland was a second away from being next, and we all know whats gone on with Burls. Yeah, lets get in his head, after all, giving up runs in the 1st inning of every game cant be mental can it? He already came in pissed because people feel they have the right to tell him what to wear in the offseason.

And since you love your stats so much, youd remember that Buehrle went 6-3 through May with an ERA which was around 3, if that, and ended June 9-4. Contreras in June, 6 starts, ERA over 6. In August, 1-3, 7.50 ERA. If this was truly on rewarding someone else, then its obvious that Garland should be the #1.. A slap in the face to Mr. Mark.

thomas35forever
02-14-2007, 10:27 PM
Either Ozzie has increased his confidence in Garland or he's losing confidence in Buehrle. Could this be a situation similar to Iguchi batting lower in the lineup last year?

santo=dorf
02-14-2007, 10:36 PM
Career vs. Jndjans:
Buehrle: 7-10, 4.59 ERA, 1.34 WHIP
Contreras: 2-0, 2.98 ERA, 1.21 WHIP
Vazquez: 3-2, 4.13 ERA, 1.27 WHIP
Garland: 7-10, 5.78 ERA, 1.51 WHIP

98navigator
02-14-2007, 10:45 PM
Career vs. Jndjans:
Buehrle: 7-10, 4.59 ERA, 1.34 WHIP
Contreras: 2-0, 2.98 ERA, 1.21 WHIP
Vazquez: 3-2, 4.13 ERA, 1.27 WHIP
Garland: 7-10, 5.78 ERA, 1.51 WHIP

This doesn't prove anything because, most likely, Jose, Jon, and Mark will still pitch in that first series. The only thing in discussion is the order... I still say that Contreras has the greatest chance of decline because of his age and injury history so what we've come to expect over the last couple of seasons may not be available on day one.

FedEx227
02-14-2007, 11:08 PM
Then what basis do you have for Buehrle bouncing back?

Who's to say he won't be just as bad as he was last year? Players don't ALWAYS rebound from ****ty seasons to level out with their career average. Ask Aaron Sele how that's going.

98navigator
02-14-2007, 11:18 PM
Then what basis do you have for Buehrle bouncing back?

Who's to say he won't be just as bad as he was last year? Players don't ALWAYS rebound from ****ty seasons to level out with their career average. Ask Aaron Sele how that's going.

Because MB is younger and has a longer track record of being good (and he's injury free). I really don't know how anyone can argue against some kind of decline for Contreras. I'd be pleasantly surprised if it didn't happen. Garland on the otherhand is firmly in his prime, and under control for a couple more years; I was SURPRISED to see that we were shopping him.

FedEx227
02-14-2007, 11:25 PM
I really don't know how anyone can argue against some kind of decline for Contreras.

I wouldn't doubt a decline from him at all, although many pitchers in the league are as old/older and are still doing pretty good (Maddux, Moyer, Johnson, Glavine, Smoltz, etc.) But you're basing his decline on the fact that he's old? And a rebound from Buehrle on the fact that he's young? It's not a game of birth certificates, sorry.

Buehrle was atrocious last year and it's quite possible that people have finally realized that you're going to get tons of over-the-plate stuff from Buehrle, including an almost guaranteed first-pitch strike?

98navigator
02-14-2007, 11:28 PM
I wouldn't doubt a decline from him at all, although many pitchers in the league are as old/older and are still doing pretty good (Maddux, Moyer, Johnson, Glavine, Smoltz, etc.) But you're basing his decline on the fact that he's old? And a rebound from Buehrle on the fact that he's young? It's not a game of birth certificates, sorry.

Buehrle was atrocious last year and it's quite possible that people have finally realized that you're going to get tons of over-the-plate stuff from Buehrle, including an almost guaranteed first-pitch strike?

Point well taken but those guys are the exception and not the rule (and Randy Johnson is not nearly as dominant as he once was). Another important component for the guys you listed is health. Besides, I seriously think Jose might be older than all of them.

All I'm saying is that the percentages are on Mark's side. He's still in his prime.

WhiteSox5187
02-14-2007, 11:46 PM
Point well taken but those guys are the exception and not the rule (and Randy Johnson is not nearly as dominant as he once was). Another important component for the guys you listed is health. Besides, I seriously think Jose might be older than all of them.

All I'm saying is that the percentages are on Mark's side. He's still in his prime.
I agree with this 100%. Buerhle was himself until the second half of last year. People are saying "on what basis does Buerhle earn it?" Well, he was consistently our best pitcher for five years...I'm not going to dump him to the side of the road because of one bad half (and by the way, it's not as though Jose was exactly lights out in the second half of last year either). Contreras has some nasty stuff, don't get me wrong, but he's old (he's probably around 38-41 truth be told) and has been injured. Buerhle is ten years younger, has never been on the DL has been consistently good with the exception of the second half of '06. If I had to choose which one do I want to keep Buerhle or Jose, it's Buerhle.

Finally, if we're going to reward the opening day spot to who had the best year, then it's Jon Garland. He was the only pitcher worth a damn in the second half last year.

IndianWhiteSox
02-15-2007, 03:07 AM
I agree with this 100%. Buerhle was himself until the second half of last year. People are saying "on what basis does Buerhle earn it?" Well, he was consistently our best pitcher for five years...I'm not going to dump him to the side of the road because of one bad half (and by the way, it's not as though Jose was exactly lights out in the second half of last year either). Contreras has some nasty stuff, don't get me wrong, but he's old (he's probably around 38-41 truth be told) and has been injured. Buerhle is ten years younger, has never been on the DL has been consistently good with the exception of the second half of '06. If I had to choose which one do I want to keep Buerhle or Jose, it's Buerhle.

Finally, if we're going to reward the opening day spot to who had the best year, then it's Jon Garland. He was the only pitcher worth a damn in the second half last year.

I guess your right with the Garland part but what most people in baseball realize is that when Contreras is on, he's the best pitcher in baseball.

WhiteSoxFan84
02-15-2007, 03:17 AM
Ozzie Guillen and Kenny Williams clearly read my post (http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=83914) earlier this month.

Makes all the sense in the world. KDub and O.G. have made it clear, it's all about the "what have you done for me lately?" biz. And Buehrle, what has he done lately? Stink up the joint. He's battling Javier Vazquez for that # 3 spot in my eyes. He's a great guy, off the field, but on the field, the guy isn't the goods. He's a # 3 at best. I know I'll get a lot of heat, but let's see hows he's done against some of the better teams in the AL from 2004-2006...

vs. Boston: 5 GS, 1-3, 6.40
vs. Cleveland: 13 GS, 3-5, 4.32
vs. Minnesota: 14 GS, 8-6, 3.40
vs. LAA: 5 GS, 0-1, 4.38
vs. NYY: 3 GS, 1-2, 10.39
vs. Oakland: 6 GS, 1-3, 4.23
vs. Overall: 36 GS, 14-20, 4.48

He's been VERY GOOD against Minnesota.
He's been OK against Cleveland, Oakland, and Los Angeles.
He's been VERY POOR against New York and Boston.

6 games under .500 and an ERA close to 4.50 against the teams that really matter. Does that sound like a # 1 or # 2 to you? I sure hope not. By the way, I didn't put the Tigers in this scenario because up until last season they sucked.

Grzegorz
02-15-2007, 04:50 AM
It may give you a pretty good discount when you're trying to re-sign one of the better left-handed pitchers in the game. Whatever, though, who cares about respect?

I should clarify myself. This is a decision on paper; spring training might change things a bit through injuries, performance, etc...

When I say "respect" I mean his performance from last year dictates his position on paper in the starting rotation this year.

I do not mean that the Chicago White Sox as an organization should not respect him as an employee or human being.

As for a "home town discount" I could care less; as a fan I want world championships. If Buehrle cannot get it done than signing him at a "discount" does not benefit the Chicago White Sox or its fans one iota.

drftnaway
02-15-2007, 05:49 AM
If coming out of the gate strong is your criteria, let's look at last year: Buehrle's stats in April: 3-1 2.57 ERA, BAA .206 in 35 innings.

You know it wasn't long ago that Buehrle was our unquestioned #1 guy and reliable start after start. Let's give him a mulligan for the 2nd half of last year. He should be the opening day starter if he pitches well in spring.


And in '04 he was 1-1 with a 5.27 era after 7 starts.

Coming out of the gate fast last year has nothing to do with this year.

kobo
02-15-2007, 07:48 AM
Does it really matter who pitches where in the rotation? What is the big deal here? Oh no, Buehrle is going to be the #3 starter!! The season is over!!! Do any of you think Mark even gives a crap about this? As an athlete, a competitor, he should be concerned with winning, and that's the bottom line here. As long as each starter goes out and pitches well and gives the team a chance to win, it shouldn't matter which spot they pitch in the rotation.

And for those of you throwing out the respect card, what about showing some respect for Contreras and the way he pitched the second half of 05 and the first half of 06. If it's true he was hurt in the 2nd half last year, then if he's healthy when Spring Training starts then yes, he deserves to be the #1. When Contreras is healthy he has shown he is one of the best pitchers in baseball.

Jurr
02-15-2007, 08:00 AM
Does it really matter who pitches where in the rotation? What is the big deal here? Oh no, Buehrle is going to be the #3 starter!! The season is over!!! Do any of you think Mark even gives a crap about this? As an athlete, a competitor, he should be concerned with winning, and that's the bottom line here. As long as each starter goes out and pitches well and gives the team a chance to win, it shouldn't matter which spot they pitch in the rotation.

And for those of you throwing out the respect card, what about showing some respect for Contreras and the way he pitched the second half of 05 and the first half of 06. If it's true he was hurt in the 2nd half last year, then if he's healthy when Spring Training starts then yes, he deserves to be the #1. When Contreras is healthy he has shown he is one of the best pitchers in baseball.
After a month or so, it really doesn't matter where you start. I think the people that are championing MB for the opening day start are saying so because of the fact that he's been the anchor to the Sox staff for years.

Based on W/L, I feel that Contreras should go #1. Buehrle struggled a little last year, and maybe the fact that he'll be matching up against the other team's #3 will help him get his confidence back early.

When Garland started '05 as the #4 starter, he was blessed with lots of run support, as the Sox were teeing off on the other team's #4. He racked up the wins, pitched with leads, and found his groove. He really hasn't let up too much since.

If Buehrle indeed has his stuff back this year, he'll be enjoying a ton of wins out of that 3 spot. It's a good move. Meanwhile, Contreras has the stuff to match up well with the other team's ace.

WhiteSox5187
02-15-2007, 02:03 PM
After a month or so, it really doesn't matter where you start. I think the people that are championing MB for the opening day start are saying so because of the fact that he's been the anchor to the Sox staff for years.

Based on W/L, I feel that Contreras should go #1. Buehrle struggled a little last year, and maybe the fact that he'll be matching up against the other team's #3 will help him get his confidence back early.

When Garland started '05 as the #4 starter, he was blessed with lots of run support, as the Sox were teeing off on the other team's #4. He racked up the wins, pitched with leads, and found his groove. He really hasn't let up too much since.

If Buehrle indeed has his stuff back this year, he'll be enjoying a ton of wins out of that 3 spot. It's a good move. Meanwhile, Contreras has the stuff to match up well with the other team's ace.
I agree that Contreras has the stuff to be our ace and I have no problem with him starting the first game of a playoff series or the first game of a big series against the Twins, I just think that Buerhle should get the opening day start out of respect. It is only one game, and I'm not saying he should be left in the number one spot the whole year or for every game there after. I think he should get it just this one game and then have the rotation go back to how you want it. Whether we start out 0-1 or 1-0 isn't going to make or break our season. Buerhle has earned the right to be our opening day starter because he spent so many years being the anchor to our staff

RKMeibalane
02-15-2007, 03:01 PM
Respect.

Do you want Frank Thomas back, too?

ode to veeck
02-15-2007, 03:03 PM
LOL....What about green seats??? ^^^^^^^Couldnt agree more.

don't forget the CF shower

Mickster
02-15-2007, 03:52 PM
Do you want Frank Thomas back, too?

You're kidding, right? This from the man who just started THIS (http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=84264) thread? :rolling:

RKMeibalane
02-15-2007, 03:54 PM
You're kidding, right? This from the man who just started THIS (http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=84264) thread? :rolling:

You missed my point. It's not that I don't like Frank. It's that the Sox need to keep moving forward. If Buehrle wants to be a number-one starter, then he needs to earn it.

Mickster
02-15-2007, 03:56 PM
You missed my point. It's not that I don't like Frank. It's that the Sox need to keep moving forward.

You're kidding, right? This from the man who just started THIS (http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=84264) thread? :rolling:

The Dude
02-15-2007, 03:56 PM
Buehrle should be the #1.

:rolleyes:

It makes perfect sense to put him at #3 because he had a horrible year last season and wasn't exactly an all-star int he first half. Contreras had a below avg 2nd half but wasn't as bad as Buehrle. I think the rotation is set perfectly.

MaggPipes
02-15-2007, 04:04 PM
I have thought a lot about this, and I am going to agree with the Buehrle siders. The man has been the face of our pitching staff for years, something that one cannot say for Garland and Contreras no matter how good they pitched two years ago or some last year. Yes Mark had a down year, but he is our man. This is not about who should be #1 in the play-offs, this is about who should be our #1 opening day, when all eyes are pretty much on all games. Mark deserves it, it doesn't mean he will be matched up against the best starter from the other team, we all know that. But Mark had been our rock at pitching these last years, and someone who like it or not may be heading into his last season. After all of this I am not saying that is has to happen, I just think in a perfect world it would be nice. But hey, I mean, might as well keep Jon or Jose happy if they have no intention to sign Mark after this year. I mean, maybe they don't want people to be able to say that they let their "#1 starter" go in free agency next year if the plan is for Mark to walk. I have said my peace...

DickAllen72
02-15-2007, 10:07 PM
http://www.suntimes.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/256194,CST-SPT-sox14.article

Not only will Buehrle's streak of five consecutive Opening Day starts end on April 2 when the Sox host Cleveland, but as it sits right now he has slipped to the No. 3 spot in the starting rotation.


Contreras, Garland, Buehrle, Vazquez, Fifth Starter. Sounds right to me.

Gregory Pratt
02-16-2007, 10:45 PM
If I were to rank the starters on the White Sox, Buehrle would be #3. Even if he has a good consistent season, Garland and Contreras just have better stuff.

This is coming from a huge Buehrle fan who went out and spent $100+ on a Buehrle jersey.

Uh, sorry, but Contreras easily has the best stuff.
Garland doesn't have anything worth noting besides the sinker.
Buehrle has a plethora of pitches with very good movement and range of speed. He clearly has better stuff than Garland and I don't see how anybody could argue to the contrary.

nitetrain8601
02-16-2007, 11:24 PM
Uh, sorry, but Contreras easily has the best stuff.
Garland doesn't have anything worth noting besides the sinker.
Buehrle has a plethora of pitches with very good movement and range of speed. He clearly has better stuff than Garland and I don't see how anybody could argue to the contrary.

I strongly disagree. Garland has a sinker, a very nice 2 seamer and a changeup(decent) and when he's on, well just refer to most of 2005 regular season or the game against the Angels in the ALCS.

Buehrle is a guy who relies soooo much on location. He also isn't anything worth a damn against the top dogs in the AL like I've been saying for years. In terms of "stuff" I'd probably ranked Buehrle last depending on who won the 5th starter spot. I'd say it goes Contreras, Vazquez, Garland, Buehrle

I agree with the rotation as it's set. 2 righties, a lefty, and 2 more righties.

WhiteSox5187
02-17-2007, 01:45 AM
I strongly disagree. Garland has a sinker, a very nice 2 seamer and a changeup(decent) and when he's on, well just refer to most of 2005 regular season or the game against the Angels in the ALCS.

Buehrle is a guy who relies soooo much on location. He also isn't anything worth a damn against the top dogs in the AL like I've been saying for years. In terms of "stuff" I'd probably ranked Buehrle last depending on who won the 5th starter spot. I'd say it goes Contreras, Vazquez, Garland, Buehrle

I agree with the rotation as it's set. 2 righties, a lefty, and 2 more righties.
So what's wrong with that? As long as he hits those spots. Greg Maddux has been doing that his whole career and it hasn't hurt him a whole lot.

PaleHoseGeorge
02-17-2007, 09:29 AM
Pitching opening day is an honor. It's a shame Jose Contreras deserves it more in 2007 than Mark Buehrle because Mark Buehrle has only himself to blame for looking like **** in 2006.

Frankly if anyone should be pissed about being passed over it's Garland, but even he looked like **** for part of 2006 so he has no real beef either.

soxinem1
02-17-2007, 04:31 PM
I agree with this 100%. Buerhle was himself until the second half of last year. People are saying "on what basis does Buerhle earn it?" Well, he was consistently our best pitcher for five years...I'm not going to dump him to the side of the road because of one bad half (and by the way, it's not as though Jose was exactly lights out in the second half of last year either). Contreras has some nasty stuff, don't get me wrong, but he's old (he's probably around 38-41 truth be told) and has been injured. Buerhle is ten years younger, has never been on the DL has been consistently good with the exception of the second half of '06. If I had to choose which one do I want to keep Buerhle or Jose, it's Buerhle.

Finally, if we're going to reward the opening day spot to who had the best year, then it's Jon Garland. He was the only pitcher worth a damn in the second half last year.

Not only was Buerhle hammered in the second half, his HR's allowed shot up, hits allowed shot up, and K's per 9 IP dropped alarmingly. And for this he deserves to just be handed the Opening Day nod? True, Contreras is not much of an upgrade based on his career, but he's probably the better of the teams 'pitchers' (not throwers) going into the season right now.

Frontman
02-17-2007, 05:39 PM
I'd rather win on opening day.

Here Here!

Look, I'm a Burhele-mon fan, but he wasn't what you call "stellar" or "outstanding" last year. Hell, he stunk it up more than once.

But I would say if any of the returning 4 deserve the nod as Opening Day pitcher, I would have to give it to Garland. He was consistent.

sox1970
02-17-2007, 05:58 PM
The way the schedule is set up, Contreras, Garland, and Buehrle can all get 19 starts in the first half; Vazquez 18 starts; and the 5th starter would get 13 starts.

I like that Contreras is starting the season. The way the rotation sets up (in my view), Contreras will be the opening pitcher in 9 series in the first half alone. That worked out well in the past, so I think it may turn out well.

ewokpelts
02-21-2007, 10:12 AM
I have scout seats for game # 3...the last guy i want pitching in a day game in april when i'm in scout seats is buehrle...make him #1, i'm in the upper deck for that(and in the shade to boot!)

balke
02-21-2007, 11:31 AM
I would hate to face a team in the division that had Mark Buehrle pitching in the 3-spot. I hope the set down motivates him to win the ace spot back, and I really hope Contreras and Garland make that tough for him to do.

34 Inch Stick
02-21-2007, 02:17 PM
All starters were questionable enough last year that opening day starter should be determined by the quality of spring training performances this year.

WhiteSox5187
02-21-2007, 02:50 PM
I still think that the Opening Day starter should be awarded to someone based more on a career than just one half season. Either way, I think that Garland is more deserving than either Jose or Mark right now.

SoxandtheCityTee
02-23-2007, 08:46 AM
Heard this morning on the radio (not verbatim but this is close): He always said, when he was the OD starter, that other guys on the staff deserved it just as much as he did, and with the second half he had last year, Jon and Jose deserve it even more.

Of all the Sox I want to have a great season, this guy's top of my list.

mshake10
02-23-2007, 09:37 AM
Heard this morning on the radio (not verbatim but this is close): He always said, when he was the OD starter, that other guys on the staff deserved it just as much as he did, and with the second half he had last year, Jon and Jose deserve it even more.

Of all the Sox I want to have a great season, this guy's top of my list.
Well Garland didn't exactly have a great season in the first half, and Jose dropped off in the second half.

For leading the league in wins the last two seasons, it should be Garland.

Sad
02-23-2007, 09:44 AM
Contreras, Garland, Buehrle, Vazquez, Fifth Starter. Sounds right to me.


yep
alot of people blowing smoke for nothing... again... :rolleyes:

Lprof
02-27-2007, 09:10 PM
yep
alot of people blowing smoke for nothing... again... :rolleyes:
If you look at those guys from the perspective of the second half, and then add Gavin Floyd and the awful year he had as your fifth starter, our pitching doesn't look quite as formidable as perhaps most of us would like. Sadly, the only pitcher other than Garland who pitched at all well the second half was Freddy. The problem is, we didn't trade our fifth starter; we traded our third starter. That promotes Vasquez to the fourth starter, when he wasn't really all that effective even as a fifth starter. I sure hope the second half of last year was a fluke....