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White Sox Randy
02-13-2007, 01:40 PM
http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/6466022

I have to agree with his analysis of this trade right now. Hopefully, we're both wrong and Floyd and Gio both step up in a big way.

In 2005 the White Sox won the World Series because of Kenny's brilliant moves.

In 2006 the Sox finished in 3rd place because of Kenny's poor trades - Vazquez deal hurt the Sox last year and will for years to come and Thome deal hurt because they could have re-signed Big Frank and kept Rowand and Gio. If these 2 trades were not made the Sox most likely make the playoffs.

In 2007 the Sox season will likely depend on the results of the Garcia and McCarthy trades.

itsnotrequired
02-13-2007, 01:42 PM
http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/6466022

I have to agree with his analysis of this trade right now. Hopefully, we're both wrong and Floyd and Gio both step up in a big way.

In 2005 the White Sox won the World Series because of Kenny's brilliant moves.

In 2006 the Sox finished in 3rd place because of Kenny's poor trades - Vazquez deal hurt the Sox last year and will for years to come and Thome deal hurt because they could have re-signed Big Frank and kept Rowand and Gio. If these 2 trades were not made the Sox most likely make the playoffs.

In 2007 the Sox season will likely depend on the results of the Garcia and McCarthy trades.

Kenny did not make poor trades in 2006. Rather, good players played like garbage.

WhiteSox5187
02-13-2007, 01:47 PM
Kenny did not make poor trades in 2006. Rather, good players played like garbage.
I agree with that....I think that Freddy needed to be traded and I didn't mind trading him so much, I just figured that we could have gotten a lot more for him...the McCarthy trade is still mind boggling.

Iwritecode
02-13-2007, 01:48 PM
http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/6466022

I have to agree with his analysis of this trade right now. Hopefully, we're both wrong and Floyd and Gio both step up in a big way.

In 2005 the White Sox won the World Series because of Kenny's brilliant moves.

In 2006 the Sox finished in 3rd place because of Kenny's poor trades - Vazquez deal hurt the Sox last year and will for years to come and Thome deal hurt because they could have re-signed Big Frank and kept Rowand and Gio. If these 2 trades were not made the Sox most likely make the playoffs.

In 2007 the Sox season will likely depend on the results of the Garcia and McCarthy trades.


Huh? In 2006 Vasquez was more or less equal to Hernandez.

Frank and Rowand wouldn't have made the pitching staff suck any less...

mjmcend
02-13-2007, 01:48 PM
http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/6466022

I have to agree with his analysis of this trade right now. Hopefully, we're both wrong and Floyd and Gio both step up in a big way.

In 2005 the White Sox won the World Series because of Kenny's brilliant moves.

In 2006 the Sox finished in 3rd place because of Kenny's poor trades - Vazquez deal hurt the Sox last year and will for years to come and Thome deal hurt because they could have re-signed Big Frank and kept Rowand and Gio. If these 2 trades were not made the Sox most likely make the playoffs.

In 2007 the Sox season will likely depend on the results of the Garcia and McCarthy trades.

2005- Agreed

2006 - Pitching still would have not been good enough to win in 2006. That is the reason we lost. Not Rowand, Thome, or an inablity to eat dirt. El Duque and Vizcianno would not have made the difference.

2007- In my opinoin, McCarthy trade will have little bearing on 2007.

FedEx227
02-13-2007, 01:49 PM
Kenny did not make poor trades in 2006. Rather, good players played like garbage.

Exactly, Bad trades did not make Mark Buehrle play like absolute ****. Let's get that straight.

Rowand would have given us more offense, true. But was offense our problem last year? Hardly.

Also he didn't say the trade was the worst of the offseason or even in the worst category. He said the deal was great for the Phillies, which it was. Not even deal has a zero-sum on one side, look at the Brewers/White Sox trade of 05. Carlos Lee helped them, Pods/Viz helped us. No one team truly got the "better" of the deal.

SOX ADDICT '73
02-13-2007, 01:55 PM
Exactly, Bad trades did not make Mark Buehrle play like absolute ****. Let's get that straight.
100% agreed. I have been saying since September that, despite the sub-par bullpen and lack of production from the top and bottom of the batting order, if Buehrle has himself even an average year, the Sox are the Wild Card, if not the division winner. Instead, from July on, he pitched every first inning like it was BP for the opposing team.

skottyj242
02-13-2007, 02:01 PM
We didn't make the playoffs is 2006 because Ross Gload didn't play as much as he should have. We won't win in 2007 becuase Man Soo Lee is gone.

INSox56
02-13-2007, 02:03 PM
We didn't make the playoffs is 2006 because Ross Gload didn't play as much as he should have. We won't win in 2007 becuase Man Soo Lee is gone.
:rolling:

soxfan13
02-13-2007, 02:07 PM
http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/6466022

I have to agree with his analysis of this trade right now. Hopefully, we're both wrong and Floyd and Gio both step up in a big way.

In 2005 the White Sox won the World Series because of Kenny's brilliant moves.

In 2006 the Sox finished in 3rd place because of Kenny's poor trades - Vazquez deal hurt the Sox last year and will for years to come and Thome deal hurt because they could have re-signed Big Frank and kept Rowand and Gio. If these 2 trades were not made the Sox most likely make the playoffs.

In 2007 the Sox season will likely depend on the results of the Garcia and McCarthy trades.

Sooooo wrong. Kenny at the time improved the offense with the Thome Trade, and improved the pitching staff with the Vazquez deal. Just because the starters (most of them) didnt pitch to their potential for the whole season and the middle relief completely imploded is not Kennys fault. Imagine, the Sox won 90 games with a pitching staff that pitched very poorly most of the season. Thomas and Rowand would have meant maybe 91 wins and thats if Thomas performed like he did in Oakland.

bryPt
02-13-2007, 02:23 PM
I wonder what these idiots said about other trades in the past:

"The Packers gave up a #1 for Favre? Altanta got the best of that deal. Ron Wolf lost his mind on that one."

"Giving up all your picks to score Ricky Williams was a genius move by Ditka. The Saints need a running back, and Williams will be the next Jim Brown."

"The Deal that the Cowboys made to get rid of Hershel Walker will cost them in the long run. There future is at stake."

The Garcia trade doesn't come close to the above 3, but damn, you cannot judge until GAMES ARE ACTUALLY PLAYED. You just look like a fool making statements like this.

Whatever, Garcia was gone anyway. Of the 5, he was the one I would pick to lose. 5mph slower fastball, only pitching in "big games" and DAMN was he slow on the mound.

spawn
02-13-2007, 02:27 PM
http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/6466022

I have to agree with his analysis of this trade right now. Hopefully, we're both wrong and Floyd and Gio both step up in a big way.

In 2005 the White Sox won the World Series because of Kenny's brilliant moves.

In 2006 the Sox finished in 3rd place because of Kenny's poor trades - Vazquez deal hurt the Sox last year and will for years to come and Thome deal hurt because they could have re-signed Big Frank and kept Rowand and Gio. If these 2 trades were not made the Sox most likely make the playoffs.

In 2007 the Sox season will likely depend on the results of the Garcia and McCarthy trades.
Brilliant analysis.

As was mentioned, KW didn't transform Mark Buehrle from a top of the rotation pitcher to crap, nor was KW responsible for the fall off of Neal Cotts and Cliff Politte. Pitching is what cost us in 2005, most notably our bullpen. Luiz Vizcaino most definitely would not have made up the difference. And El Duque>Vazquez? If I remember correctly, he had problems staying healthy last year. Please give me some of what you're smoking!:rolling:

MrRoboto83
02-13-2007, 02:33 PM
Vasquez will win the Cy Young Award this season. Kenny will once again look like a mastermind.

CashMan
02-13-2007, 02:36 PM
http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/6466022

I have to agree with his analysis of this trade right now. Hopefully, we're both wrong and Floyd and Gio both step up in a big way.

In 2005 the White Sox won the World Series because of Kenny's brilliant moves.

In 2006 the Sox finished in 3rd place because of Kenny's poor trades - Vazquez deal hurt the Sox last year and will for years to come and Thome deal hurt because they could have re-signed Big Frank and kept Rowand and Gio. If these 2 trades were not made the Sox most likely make the playoffs.

In 2007 the Sox season will likely depend on the results of the Garcia and McCarthy trades.


I might be wrong on this, didnt Kenny say we needed a LH power hitter in the middle of the lineup? When did Thomas start hitting LH?

Mickster
02-13-2007, 02:39 PM
In 2007 the Sox season will likely depend on the results of the Garcia and McCarthy trades.


Wrong. The seson will likely depend on the results of Buehrle, Contreras, Garland & Vazquez and much less on the 5th starter spot. If out starting 4 pitch like they are capable of pitching, we'll only need 7-10 wins (if that) from our 5th starter.

NardiWasHere
02-13-2007, 02:41 PM
In 2006 the Sox finished in 3rd place because of Kenny's poor trades - Vazquez deal hurt the Sox last year and will for years to come and Thome deal hurt because they could have re-signed Big Frank and kept Rowand and Gio. If these 2 trades were not made the Sox most likely make the playoffs.


This is probably the dumbest post I've seen here since the Angels fan kept coming up with bad Chone Figgins trade ideas.

The Dude
02-13-2007, 02:46 PM
http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/6466022

I have to agree with his analysis of this trade right now. Hopefully, we're both wrong and Floyd and Gio both step up in a big way.

In 2005 the White Sox won the World Series because of Kenny's brilliant moves.

In 2006 the Sox finished in 3rd place because of Kenny's poor trades - Vazquez deal hurt the Sox last year and will for years to come and Thome deal hurt because they could have re-signed Big Frank and kept Rowand and Gio. If these 2 trades were not made the Sox most likely make the playoffs.

In 2007 the Sox season will likely depend on the results of the Garcia and McCarthy trades.

And now I realize why I have you on ignore. I only read this to see the link.
Bull**** that 2007 will depend on those 2 trades!:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

It will depend on how many games Chips attends VS The Dude!:gulp:

Domeshot17
02-13-2007, 03:01 PM
And now I realize why I have you on ignore. I only read this to see the link.
Bull**** that 2007 will depend on those 2 trades!:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

It will depend on how many games Chips attends VS The Dude!:gulp:

Well I dont know if thats true either, but what Randy failed to realize, NO MATTER HOW MUCH WE TELL HIM. It was not Thome for Rowand Gio Thomas. IT was Thome AND Konerko for Rowand Gio and Thomas and the Sox ABSOLUTLELY Made the right move. Konerko said he wasn't coming back to hit behind Frank. And, as much as I love Frank, he had basically the same season Thome did. For what he carried in the stretch, he was hurting early on. And sorry, but I also really wouldn't have enjoyed Frank going 0 for the century in the 2006 playoffs. The only way Randy's arguement has 1% of validity is if he wants to argue Gio doesn't have a sucky 2006 for the Sox Farm, is Stellar, and comes up and saves the season. That wouldn't have happened, it didn't and its time to move on from Frank and Rowand.

CLR01
02-13-2007, 03:17 PM
Huh? In 2006 Vasquez was more or less equal to Hernandez.

Frank and Rowand wouldn't have made the pitching staff suck any less...


Rowand makes everyone better. He's a magician.

voodoochile
02-13-2007, 03:24 PM
Rowand makes everyone better. He's a magician.

He can pull a pie out of his hat with the best of them...

soxtalker
02-13-2007, 03:25 PM
http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/6466022

I have to agree with his analysis of this trade right now. Hopefully, we're both wrong and Floyd and Gio both step up in a big way.

In 2005 the White Sox won the World Series because of Kenny's brilliant moves.

In 2006 the Sox finished in 3rd place because of Kenny's poor trades - Vazquez deal hurt the Sox last year and will for years to come and Thome deal hurt because they could have re-signed Big Frank and kept Rowand and Gio. If these 2 trades were not made the Sox most likely make the playoffs.

In 2007 the Sox season will likely depend on the results of the Garcia and McCarthy trades.


Well, he's welcome to his opinion, and, while I disagree with him, it is certainly a rational argument. Hopefully, the Phillies do consider this to be a good deal for them. That will only make them more willing in the future to deal with Kenny.

Jurr
02-13-2007, 03:27 PM
This is probably the dumbest post I've seen here since the Angels fan kept coming up with bad Chone Figgins trade ideas.
I agree. It seems like most WSI members with the name White Sox (first name) live up to the simplicity of their user names with moronic posts.

Terrible efforts from Buehrle, Cotts, Politte, McCarthy, and Pods (in terms of on base percentage and defense) were among the main culprits of the Sox' terrible season. Oh, wait. They won 90 games.

skottyj242
02-13-2007, 03:27 PM
And now I realize why I have you on ignore. I only read this to see the link.
Bull**** that 2007 will depend on those 2 trades!:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

It will depend on how many games Chips attends VS The Dude!:gulp:


I thought it depended on a tag team drinking match between The Dude and Chips vs. Itsnotrequired and myself.

munchman33
02-13-2007, 03:34 PM
Vasquez will win the Cy Young Award this season. Kenny will once again look like a mastermind.

That's simply not possible. Not unless something terrible happens causing Gavin Floyd not to pitch this year. :cool:

MrRoboto83
02-13-2007, 03:39 PM
That's simply not possible. Not unless something terrible happens causing Gavin Floyd not to pitch this year. :cool:


I'm not ruling out any possibilities.:bandance:

jabrch
02-13-2007, 04:05 PM
And now I realize why I have you on ignore. I only read this to see the link.
Bull**** that 2007 will depend on those 2 trades!:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

It will depend on how many games Chips attends VS The Dude!:gulp:

You too?

I wonder who is on the most "ignore" lists. I'm sure Randy is on the short list.

itsnotrequired
02-13-2007, 04:14 PM
I thought it depended on a tag team drinking match between The Dude and Chips vs. Itsnotrequired and myself.

Why do I always end up getting dragged into your fantasies?

:tongue:

lumpyspun
02-13-2007, 04:20 PM
In 2005 the White Sox won the World Series because of Kenny's brilliant moves.



That's messed up if that's the case b/c they forgot to show all his moves in my Sox Pride DVD.

esbrechtel
02-13-2007, 04:54 PM
I agree. It seems like most WSI members with the name White Sox (first name) live up to the simplicity of their user names with moronic posts.

Terrible efforts from Buehrle, Cotts, Politte, McCarthy, and Pods (in terms of on base percentage and defense) were among the main culprits of the Sox' terrible season. Oh, wait. They won 90 games.
PREACH ON JURR!!! Trading away Rowand for Thome made out team worse...

jcw218
02-13-2007, 05:30 PM
http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/6466022

I have to agree with his analysis of this trade right now. Hopefully, we're both wrong and Floyd and Gio both step up in a big way.

Rosenthal did not say that this was a bad move on the part of the White Sox. He did say that this was a good move by the Phillies. We will not know how the Sox did on this particular deal until after the end of the 2007 at the least.

In 2005 the White Sox won the World Series because of Kenny's brilliant moves.

Partially correct. What also helped was that we had career years from Politte and Cotts in relief, had overall good defense, our starters were terriffic all year, and we made the most out of the opportunities that were given to us.

In 2006 the Sox finished in 3rd place because of Kenny's poor trades - Vazquez deal hurt the Sox last year and will for years to come and Thome deal hurt because they could have re-signed Big Frank and kept Rowand and Gio. If these 2 trades were not made the Sox most likely make the playoffs.

2006 was not a result of the afore mentioned deals. The White Sox won 90 games last year. No one could have predicted that Politte and Cotts would implode, that our starters would struggle for whatever reason, and that some of the moves Ozzie made in hindsight should not have been made as often as they were. (Mackowiak in center for example). When Vazquez was acquired, he made a strong rotation even stronger by replacing Hernandez.

In 2007 the Sox season will likely depend on the results of the Garcia and McCarthy trades.

As I stated earlier, we will not know the results of these two trades until after the 2007 season's games are played. 2007 will depend on how well our starting rotation returns to what we would call normal, Podsednik returning to the form he had in the first half of 2005, and how well or bullpen performs.

caulfield12
02-13-2007, 05:34 PM
Well, he's welcome to his opinion, and, while I disagree with him, it is certainly a rational argument. Hopefully, the Phillies do consider this to be a good deal for them. That will only make them more willing in the future to deal with Kenny.

According to Randy, KW already has ruined the 2008 season by not signing Jermaine Dye to a 4 year, $60 million dollar extension...as he should have been prescient enough to realize that JD was about to become the AL MVP last April.

Why even play the games this year and next?

russ99
02-13-2007, 05:45 PM
Keep in mind the offseason "Winners and Losers" only are determined after a season of actual baseball, not pundit conjecture a month before Opening Day.

the McCarthy trade is still mind boggling.

Yeah, mind boggling considering how much talent Kenny got for a homer-happy pitcher who failed at every chance the Sox game him last year...

santo=dorf
02-13-2007, 05:47 PM
Huh? In 2006 Vasquez was more or less equal to Hernandez.

Frank and Rowand wouldn't have made the pitching staff suck any less...
First off, it's Vazquez.

Second, Vazquez was better than El Duque last year.

Duque: 11-11, 162.3 IP, 4.66 ERA, 1.33 WHIP In the NL mostly in a pitcher's park.
Vazquez: 11-12, 202.7IP, 4.84, 1.29 WHIP in the AL mostly in a hitter friendly park.

The numbers do appear to be close, but El Duque's IP is too low, and the park and league factors make a huge difference IMO. In the hitter friendly Arizona ballpark, his ERA was 6.45. At Shea it was 3.00.
Randy, you misread the article. Just because it's a great trade for the Phils doesn't mean it's a horrible trade for the Sox. I thought I recall Rosenthal calling this a "win-win" trade. Personally I'm not happy with what he got as I believe we could've received more (other executives agree,) but I don't think Floyd and Gonzalez are completely worthless.
Vasquez will win the Cy Young Award this season. Kenny will once again look like a mastermind.
Carlos Vasquez has no chance of winning the Cy Young this year.

None.
Thome deal hurt because they could have re-signed Big Frank and kept Rowand and Gio.
If the Sox had Thomas instead of Thome back in April, they would have been considered dead a longtime before the last week in September. Instead of not gaining ground while being 3 games behind the Tigers, they would have been gaining ground on a 10 game Tiger lead. While the Sox would have been gaining ground on a larger lead, people would be saying "just imagine if the team played like this in April" during September instead of having people say "I wish the Sox played in September like they did in April" last year.
Rowand wasn't even that good last year, and Gio wouldn't have done anything for the 2006 team either.

FarWestChicago
02-13-2007, 08:05 PM
It's really nice to see the thread starter so soundly ass handed by the rest of the posters in this thread. He seriously deserved it. Good job, folks. :thumbsup:

PaulDrake
02-13-2007, 08:44 PM
Rosenthal admits that he wasn't exactly accurate in evaluating the best and worst moves last year. He also gives the Cubs a free pass for breaking the bank on suspect pitchers and a good hitter who strikes a lot and is a butcher in the field. That being said, the more I think about the Garcia deal the less and less I like it. I think KW has been on a roll for several years. I don't blame him for any of his moves last year, in fact they had to happen. Frank had reached the end of the road in Chicago, and Konerko probably would have gone to the Angels if KW hadn't been able to land Thome. Vasquez seemed like a better option than El Duque. Last year wasn't KWs fault, the pitching tanked and Ozzie ball pretty much disappeared. This off season is a different story. I really want spring training to start so that all those young "arms" can begin to prove me wrong. It's true that the local and national media usually won't give the Sox an objective look, but there is plenty of reason for doubt this year. I expect very little from any of those alleged pitching prospects we traded for this year.

caulfield12
02-13-2007, 09:07 PM
You never know in baseball...who thought Pods, Iguchi, Jenks, Dye, Politte, Cotts, Hermanson, etc., were going to do so well in 2005? We went through 3 closers in one season too.

Everyone thought we wouldn't have enough offense after dealing Carlos and letting Valentin and Ordonez go.

KW has rolled the dice that the potential and affordability of the younger pitching trumps a pitcher in Garcia who has maxxed out and is now on the downside of his career...as well as another hurler in McCarthy who became gopherball happy and just didn't get the job done in the 2nd half when we really needed him to solidify the pen (now whether he ever should have been put in that position, you can second guess to death as well).

He might have made the best possible moves and the White Sox STILL miss the playoffs...that's the danger of being in the AL Central right now. Even KC will be a force in 08 and 09.

Hendu
02-13-2007, 09:24 PM
http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/6466022

In 2006 the Sox finished in 3rd place because of Kenny's poor trades - Vazquez deal hurt the Sox last year and will for years to come and Thome deal hurt because they could have re-signed Big Frank and kept Rowand and Gio. If these 2 trades were not made the Sox most likely make the playoffs.


Kenny's trades did not make Buehrle, Garcia, Jose, Cotts and Politte pitch like garbage for long stretches of the season. Basically, that's why we lost...bad starting pitching and a shaky, over-worked bullpen.

Who could have predicted that Frank would have the year he had last year? Hindsight is 20/20, but the big guy wasn't exactly in demand last off-season.

Scottiehaswheels
02-13-2007, 09:48 PM
ok i'll be bold and say that Brandon ends up getting sent back down to the minors for Texas next year when his ERA is in the 7's... I'm gonna say... Mid June

A. Cavatica
02-13-2007, 09:50 PM
Carlos Vasquez has no chance of winning the Cy Young this year.

That's why they play the games.

WhiteSox5187
02-13-2007, 09:57 PM
Yeah, mind boggling considering how much talent Kenny got for a homer-happy pitcher who failed at every chance the Sox game him last year...
Yes because you ALWAYS want to trade away a kid who has proven he can start but had a bad year out of the BULLPEN for a PROSPECT because prospects of course are guarenteed locks to succeed.:rolleyes:

maurice
02-13-2007, 10:40 PM
Phil's nonsensical "Fingernails = polished workhorse" argument rears its ugly head again.

The Sox actually sent Texas an unproven young starter + a non-prospect in exchange for for a more highly regarded unproven young starter + a young reliever + another prospect.

drewcifer
02-13-2007, 10:44 PM
Phil's nonsensical "Fingernails = polished workhorse" argument rears its ugly head again.

The Sox actually sent Texas an unproven young starter + a non-prospect in exchange for for a more highly regarded unproven young starter + 2 other prospects.

You mean to say you DON'T think he was proven as a starter...because he was most often used as a reliever?


http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f322/fugnutz/mccarthy-ps-compressed.jpg

"Thank you for choosing, McCarthy's. Can I take your order please?"

chisoxmike
02-13-2007, 10:48 PM
In 2006 the Sox finished in 3rd place because of Kenny's poor trades - Vazquez deal hurt the Sox last year and will for years to come and Thome deal hurt because they could have re-signed Big Frank and kept Rowand and Gio. If these 2 trades were not made the Sox most likely make the playoffs.


Dumb.

WhiteSox5187
02-13-2007, 11:01 PM
Phil's nonsensical "Fingernails = polished workhorse" argument rears its ugly head again.

The Sox actually sent Texas an unproven young starter + a non-prospect in exchange for for a more highly regarded unproven young starter + a young reliever + another prospect.
I just don't see the logic in it, "Here I'll give you MY unproven starter for your unproven starer." And I don't care about "he's more highly regarded" that doesn't mean ANYTHING until he does something. McCarthy showed that he COULD be brilliant. I'm not trying to knock Danks - he very well could be the next Clemens, but so could McCarthy (well, he'd probably be more of a Maddux like pitcher). I just don't get why you would trade a guy who looked BRILLIANT in some of his starts for a guy who has never thrown a pitch in the majors. McCarthy shut down some very good hitting teams and never really got a chance to prove himself as a starter. I don't think it's one of the worst trades ever made nor am I willing to call it a bad trade (time proves all of these things, a lot of people thought Brock for Broglio was a good trade at the time), I just don't see the logic in it.

chaerulez
02-13-2007, 11:12 PM
Don't put words in Rosenthal's mouth. He never said the Garcia trade was the worst, he said it was a good move for the Phillies.

Vernam
02-14-2007, 12:04 AM
It's really nice to see the thread starter so soundly ass handed by the rest of the posters in this thread. He seriously deserved it. Good job, folks. :thumbsup:Does that mean I'm too late? :wink:

People bashing KW for this trade remind me of the guy who sits in our row and never missed an opportunity to boo Freddy. Now that Garcia's with the Phillies, our seat neighbor suddenly has a warm spot in his heart for him.

It's like rock 'n' roll heaven or something, where all you have to do is die so everyone only remembers your greatest moments. Garcia, McCarthy and Saint Aaron are in Sox Heaven, where they can never lose a game for us. Or win one. Get over it!

Vernam

drewcifer
02-14-2007, 12:08 AM
Does that mean I'm too late? :wink:

People bashing KW for this trade remind me of the guy who sits in our row and never missed an opportunity to boo Freddy. Now that Garcia's with the Phillies, our seat neighbor suddenly has a warm spot in his heart for him.

It's like rock 'n' roll heaven or something, where all you have to do is die so everyone only remembers your greatest moments. Garcia, McCarthy and Saint Aaron are in Sox Heaven, where they can never lose a game for us. Or win one. Get over it!

Vernam

Amen!

WhiteSox5187
02-14-2007, 12:51 AM
Don't put words in Rosenthal's mouth. He never said the Garcia trade was the worst, he said it was a good move for the Phillies.
I think it was a VERY good move for the Phillies and I think it was a good trade for the Sox too. Garcia I think is going to help the Phils but he's clearly over the hill and I think Floyd is going to win ten-twelve games. I just think that Williams coulda gotten a little bit more like a CF, but that need has been met now.

caulfield12
02-14-2007, 07:02 AM
I think it was a VERY good move for the Phillies and I think it was a good trade for the Sox too. Garcia I think is going to help the Phils but he's clearly over the hill and I think Floyd is going to win ten-twelve games. I just think that Williams coulda gotten a little bit more like a CF, but that need has been met now.

Why would KW want a CF if he plans for BA to be around 5-7 more years?

A veteran CF as a "hedge," sure. Which is what he did. I'm sure if they offered Floyd + Rowand, Gio and Rowand or Floyd + Gio he takes both pitchers 99 times out of 100.

itsnotrequired
02-14-2007, 08:32 AM
Why would KW want a CF if he plans for BA to be around 5-7 more years?

A veteran CF as a "hedge," sure. Which is what he did. I'm sure if they offered Floyd + Rowand, Gio and Rowand or Floyd + Gio he takes both pitchers 99 times out of 100.

I would say it is more on the order of 100 times out of 100.

Jurr
02-14-2007, 10:43 AM
Keep in mind the offseason "Winners and Losers" only are determined after a season of actual baseball, not pundit conjecture a month before Opening Day.



Yeah, mind boggling considering how much talent Kenny got for a homer-happy pitcher who failed at every chance the Sox game him last year...
I wholeheartedly agree. Screw the talk about "McCarthy was misused last year."

Papelbon is slated to be a starter this year. He was a closer last year. Smoltz did the same thing. El Duque performed in a relief spot in the playoffs. They all took care of whatever business they were called to do.

IF YOU ARE CALLED TO THE MOUND, YOU MAKE PITCHES OR YOU DON'T. Whether it was starting or in relief, who cares? McCarthy still comes to the mound with his stuff, and his stuff was pounded last year. Wins became losses. Close games became unreachable. His performance was terrible. Now, do you think that KW and Cooper are clueless? Billy Beane (I know it's a bad word) gave up established pitchers for top level prospects. He lost two quality pitchers for three high end guys. He got Haren, Blanton, and Meyer. Haren and Blanton, THOUGH NOT ESTABLISHED AT THE TIME, became quality starters for the A's. The Sox only gave up 1 established pitcher (Garcia) and an unproven guy (McCarthy) for 3 top prospects. You can't question that.

If just one of those guys becomes a bona fide ace or quality #2 starter, KW has done his job.

caulfield12
02-14-2007, 10:47 AM
I wholeheartedly agree. Screw the talk about "McCarthy was misused last year."

Papelbon is slated to be a starter this year. He was a closer last year. Smoltz did the same thing. El Duque performed in a relief spot in the playoffs. They all took care of whatever business they were called to do.

IF YOU ARE CALLED TO THE MOUND, YOU MAKE PITCHES OR YOU DON'T. Whether it was starting or in relief, who cares? McCarthy still comes to the mound with his stuff, and his stuff was pounded last year. Wins became losses. Close games became unreachable. His performance was terrible. Now, do you think that KW and Cooper are clueless? Billy Beane (I know it's a bad word) gave up established pitchers for top level prospects. He lost two quality pitchers for three high end guys. He got Haren, Blanton, and Meyer. Haren and Blanton, THOUGH NOT ESTABLISHED AT THE TIME, became quality starters for the A's. The Sox only gave up 1 established pitcher (Garcia) and an unproven guy (McCarthy) for 3 top prospects. You can't question that.

If just one of those guys becomes a bona fide ace or quality #2 starter, KW has done his job.

I don't think many are ready to call Blanton an unqualified success. And he also gave up Bonderman, who would be no worse than a #2 in that rotation at this point in his career.

Jurr
02-14-2007, 10:52 AM
I don't think many are ready to call Blanton an unqualified success. And he also gave up Bonderman, who would be no worse than a #2 in that rotation at this point in his career.
Yeah, but Blanton went 16-12 last year. His ERA was a little high, but he was money as the year went on. Haren went 14-13 and again pitched better later.

I'm just saying that smart teams know that you can't keep riding the same horses year in and year out, especially in today's economic situation. You've gotta keep stockpiling prospects, and KW's got a stable now.

Tracey, Gio, Haeger, Broadway, Danks, Masset, Fields, Sweeney......there's a lot of talent that can possibly keep the Sox contenders for a while.

caulfield12
02-14-2007, 10:52 AM
I wholeheartedly agree. Screw the talk about "McCarthy was misused last year."

Papelbon is slated to be a starter this year. He was a closer last year. Smoltz did the same thing. El Duque performed in a relief spot in the playoffs. They all took care of whatever business they were called to do.

IF YOU ARE CALLED TO THE MOUND, YOU MAKE PITCHES OR YOU DON'T. Whether it was starting or in relief, who cares? McCarthy still comes to the mound with his stuff, and his stuff was pounded last year. Wins became losses. Close games became unreachable. His performance was terrible. Now, do you think that KW and Cooper are clueless? Billy Beane (I know it's a bad word) gave up established pitchers for top level prospects. He lost two quality pitchers for three high end guys. He got Haren, Blanton, and Meyer. Haren and Blanton, THOUGH NOT ESTABLISHED AT THE TIME, became quality starters for the A's. The Sox only gave up 1 established pitcher (Garcia) and an unproven guy (McCarthy) for 3 top prospects. You can't question that.

If just one of those guys becomes a bona fide ace or quality #2 starter, KW has done his job.

I don't think many are ready to call Blanton an unqualified success. And he also gave up Bonderman, who would be no worse than a #2 in that rotation at this point in his career.

IndianWhiteSox
02-14-2007, 10:57 AM
This is the same guy who thinks that Jockstrap is an improvement over Pods. What else would you expect?

IndianWhiteSox
02-14-2007, 10:58 AM
I wholeheartedly agree. Screw the talk about "McCarthy was misused last year."

Papelbon is slated to be a starter this year. He was a closer last year. Smoltz did the same thing. El Duque performed in a relief spot in the playoffs. They all took care of whatever business they were called to do.

IF YOU ARE CALLED TO THE MOUND, YOU MAKE PITCHES OR YOU DON'T. Whether it was starting or in relief, who cares? McCarthy still comes to the mound with his stuff, and his stuff was pounded last year. Wins became losses. Close games became unreachable. His performance was terrible. Now, do you think that KW and Cooper are clueless? Billy Beane (I know it's a bad word) gave up established pitchers for top level prospects. He lost two quality pitchers for three high end guys. He got Haren, Blanton, and Meyer. Haren and Blanton, THOUGH NOT ESTABLISHED AT THE TIME, became quality starters for the A's. The Sox only gave up 1 established pitcher (Garcia) and an unproven guy (McCarthy) for 3 top prospects. You can't question that.

If just one of those guys becomes a bona fide ace or quality #2 starter, KW has done his job.

What he said.

champagne030
02-14-2007, 11:17 AM
Yeah, mind boggling considering how much talent Kenny got for a homer-happy pitcher who failed at every chance the Sox game him last year...

You mean getting a "homer-happy" pitcher that played in a severe pitchers park last season, while in AAA, vs. the guy pitching in a homer haven at the major league level?

ok i'll be bold and say that Floyd ends up getting sent back down to Charlotte next year when his ERA is in the 7's... I'm gonna say... Mid June

Fixed it for ya. :cool:

chisoxmike
02-14-2007, 11:34 AM
Don't put words in Rosenthal's mouth. He never said the Garcia trade was the worst, he said it was a good move for the Phillies.

Thank you!!!! I thought I was blind when I cound't find him saying something like "the worst move was by the White Sox sending Garcia to the Phillies." It never says anything like that. He says it was a good move for the Philliles and nothing else. People need to read.

Best moves, non-Gary Sheffield division:

1. The Phillies' acquisition of right-hander Freddy Garcia from the White Sox for right-hander Gavin Floyd and left-hander Gio Gonzalez.

Some Phillies officials were so astounded by the White Sox's low asking price, they initially considered the deal a salary dump. Garcia, 31, is a free agent after this season, increasing his motivation to succeed.

It says nothing in the "Worst moves' part of the article.

Beer Can Chicken
02-14-2007, 11:49 AM
Thank you!!!! I thought I was blind when I cound't find him saying something like "the worst move was by the White Sox sending Garcia to the Phillies." It never says anything like that. He says it was a good move for the Philliles and nothing else. People need to read.



It says nothing in the "Worst moves' part of the article.

Better yet.. it actually WAS a good for the Phillies. It gave them exactly what they needed the most.

caulfield12
02-14-2007, 11:58 AM
Yeah, but Blanton went 16-12 last year. His ERA was a little high, but he was money as the year went on. Haren went 14-13 and again pitched better later.

I'm just saying that smart teams know that you can't keep riding the same horses year in and year out, especially in today's economic situation. You've gotta keep stockpiling prospects, and KW's got a stable now.

Tracey, Gio, Haeger, Broadway, Danks, Masset, Fields, Sweeney......there's a lot of talent that can possibly keep the Sox contenders for a while.

I agree, just please scratch Tracey out of your list. And add McCullogh, Carter and Cunningham, among others.

spiffie
02-14-2007, 12:05 PM
You mean getting a "homer-happy" pitcher that played in a severe pitchers park last season, while in AAA, vs. the guy pitching in a homer haven at the major league level?



Fixed it for ya. :cool:
It may be snowing in Chicago today, but where you are the forecast is all
:darkcloud:

jcw218
02-14-2007, 12:07 PM
You mean getting a "homer-happy" pitcher that played in a severe pitchers park last season, while in AAA, vs. the guy pitching in a homer haven at the major league level?



Fixed it for ya. :cool:

Who are you referring to in your above comment Floyd or Danks? If you're referring to Floyd, you've got the wrong trade. Floyd was obtained from the Phillies along with Gio Gongalez for Freddy Garcia. Danks was obtained from the Rangers along with Nick Masset for Brandon McCarthy.

Here is how Danks fared in 2006:

9-9, 4.24 ERA, 27g 26s, 140.0 IP, 141 h, 81 R, 66 ER, 22 HR, 56 BB, 154 K

Complete information on Danks available here (http://www.minorleaguebaseball.com/milb/stats/stats.jsp?n=John%20Danks&pos=P&sid=milb&t=p_pbp&pid=433579)

infohawk
02-14-2007, 12:09 PM
I didn't see in the article where Rosenthal believed the Garcia trade to be the worst move of the offseason (as reflected by the title of the post). He did write that it was the best move of the offseason in that it helped the Phillies. I will grant that he inferred that perhaps the White Sox didn't get enough back, but he didn't explicitely say it was a bad move for the Sox.

ondafarm
02-14-2007, 12:33 PM
I didn't see in the article where Rosenthal believed the Garcia trade to be the worst move of the offseason (as reflected by the title of the post). He did write that it was the best move of the offseason in that it helped the Phillies. I will grant that he inferred that perhaps the White Sox didn't get enough back, but he didn't explicitely say it was a bad move for the Sox.

He did say that the Phillies thought the asking price was so low and his analysis really does seem to be a knock on the White Sox. Sure he doesn't say it was the worst deal for the White Sox but then again calling the Lou Brock for DeBroglio (sp?) deal one of the best in the history of the Cardinals is not a compliment to the Flubs.

ondafarm
02-14-2007, 12:44 PM
I wholeheartedly agree. Screw the talk about "McCarthy was misused last year."

Papelbon is slated to be a starter this year. He was a closer last year. Smoltz did the same thing. El Duque performed in a relief spot in the playoffs. They all took care of whatever business they were called to do.

IF YOU ARE CALLED TO THE MOUND, YOU MAKE PITCHES OR YOU DON'T. Whether it was starting or in relief, who cares? McCarthy still comes to the mound with his stuff, and his stuff was pounded last year. . .

Pitching at the major league level ain't like mowing the grass. It's not one of those, I can do it at anytime, things.

As to the pitchers you mention, Smoltz is an exceptional guy, Pappelborn is yet to prove if he can step up as a starter. That a lot of guys find it difficult to swing between starting and relief roles should illustrate that it is such a hard process. A good major league pitcher really coordinates their diet, sleep and exercise activities for days before days before pitching in a major league game. And the strain on your body is enormous.

champagne030
02-14-2007, 12:46 PM
Who are you referring to in your above comment Floyd or Danks? If you're referring to Floyd, you've got the wrong trade. Floyd was obtained from the Phillies along with Gio Gongalez for Freddy Garcia. Danks was obtained from the Rangers along with Nick Masset for Brandon McCarthy.

Here is how Danks fared in 2006:

9-9, 4.24 ERA, 27g 26s, 140.0 IP, 141 h, 81 R, 66 ER, 22 HR, 56 BB, 154 K

Complete information on Danks available here (http://www.minorleaguebaseball.com/milb/stats/stats.jsp?n=John%20Danks&pos=P&sid=milb&t=p_pbp&pid=433579)

The two quotes I responded about were in response to two different posts. One was about Floyd and the other was about Danks. I believe the post you're questioning is about Danks. This post.....

Yeah, mind boggling considering how much talent Kenny got for a homer-happy pitcher who failed at every chance the Sox game him last year...

....rips on Brandon that he's a gopher machine. My response was that Danks was as least as bad because he had a 1.4 HR/9 in a severe pitchers park in Oklahoma City, while Brandon posted his numbers in a homer haven at the MLB level.

champagne030
02-14-2007, 01:01 PM
It may be snowing in Chicago today, but where you are the forecast is all
:darkcloud:


:whatever:

http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B00005RRG5.01._AA280_SCLZZZZZZZ_.jpg

caulfield12
02-14-2007, 01:03 PM
The two quotes I responded about were in response to two different posts. One was about Floyd and the other was about Danks. I believe the post you're questioning is about Danks. This post.....



....rips on Brandon that he's a gopher machine. My response was that Danks was as least as bad because he had a 1.4 HR/9 in a severe pitchers park in Oklahoma City, while Brandon posted his numbers in a homer haven at the MLB level.

What are the splits for Danks: homers allowed on the road versus at home in AAA?

caulfield12
02-14-2007, 01:05 PM
The two quotes I responded about were in response to two different posts. One was about Floyd and the other was about Danks. I believe the post you're questioning is about Danks. This post.....



....rips on Brandon that he's a gopher machine. My response was that Danks was as least as bad because he had a 1.4 HR/9 in a severe pitchers park in Oklahoma City, while Brandon posted his numbers in a homer haven at the MLB level.

What are the splits for Danks: homers allowed on the road versus at home in AAA?

mshake10
02-14-2007, 01:17 PM
http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/6466022

I have to agree with his analysis of this trade right now. Hopefully, we're both wrong and Floyd and Gio both step up in a big way.

In 2005 the White Sox won the World Series because of Kenny's brilliant moves.

In 2006 the Sox finished in 3rd place because of Kenny's poor trades - Vazquez deal hurt the Sox last year and will for years to come and Thome deal hurt because they could have re-signed Big Frank and kept Rowand and Gio. If these 2 trades were not made the Sox most likely make the playoffs.

In 2007 the Sox season will likely depend on the results of the Garcia and McCarthy trades.

All hindsight. I'm sure you said they were great trades at the time. I said they were, and I'm sticking by it, even though we now know the better choice would have been against those trades.

NardiWasHere
02-14-2007, 02:03 PM
even though we now know the better choice would have been against those trades.


Wrong.

jcw218
02-14-2007, 02:16 PM
What are the splits for Danks: homers allowed on the road versus at home in AAA?

Complete 2006 Danks stats available here (http://www.minorleaguebaseball.com/milb/stats/stats.jsp?n=John%20Danks&pos=P&sid=milb&t=p_pbp&pid=433579).

But to answer your question he allowed 5 hr at home in 40.1 ip (1.1hr/9ip) and 6 hr away in 30.1 ip (1.8hr/9ip).

I tried to find the dimensions for AT&T Bricktown Ballpark (http://www.oklahomaredhawks.com/index.cfm?fa=ballpark.about) but all I could find was this from the official site (http://www.oklahomaredhawks.com/index.cfm) of the Oklahoma Red Hawks

AT&T Bricktown Ballpark is reminiscent of many of the country's older parks, with an asymmetrical playing field and intimate seating configuration, harkening back to when baseball was a game, played in a park. The unique field configuration is intended to provide for the home field advantage as well as add to the excitement of the game. Sluggers will enjoy a 325-foot left field porch, while the right field power alley is deep enough to give pitchers a chance. An eight-foot outfield wall will provide for many a game-saving catch

champagne030
02-14-2007, 02:32 PM
Complete 2006 Danks stats available here (http://www.minorleaguebaseball.com/milb/stats/stats.jsp?n=John%20Danks&pos=P&sid=milb&t=p_pbp&pid=433579).

But to answer your question he allowed 5 hr at home in 40.1 ip (1.1hr/9ip) and 6 hr away in 30.1 ip (1.8hr/9ip).

I tried to find the dimensions for AT&T Bricktown Ballpark (http://www.oklahomaredhawks.com/index.cfm?fa=ballpark.about) but all I could find was this from the official site (http://www.oklahomaredhawks.com/index.cfm) of the Oklahoma Red Hawks

FWIW.....

About the Park: Bricktown Ballpark remorselessly punishes hitters. Think Comerica before the fences moved in, or the early years of Pac Bell Park, or Yankee Stadium during the ‘30s. The official website claims that “sluggers will enjoy a 325-foot left field porch,” but they’re not enjoying it very often. Redhawks and their opponents hit only 76 homers at the Brick compared to 129 in road parks. For Redhawk players, playing in Oklahoma depresses homers by almost 20%. That and the other factors are vital to understanding the performances of the Rangers’ AAA squad. For hitters, the park-adjusted average line was only .259/.331/.387, and for pitchers, the league average ERA was a tiny 3.89.

http://www.rangers.scottlucas.com/archives/2006/10/minor_league_re_6.html

maurice
02-14-2007, 02:49 PM
I just don't see the logic in it, "Here I'll give you MY unproven starter for your unproven starer."

Even if Fingernails and Danks are almost a wash, KW got 2 other pitchers from the Rangers.

Unproven starter + non-prospect < unproven starer + reliever + lower-level prospect.

KW really likes Massett. He thinks that he has closer stuff and that he will be in the Sox BP when the team breaks camp and for years to come.

jcw218
02-14-2007, 03:06 PM
FWIW.....

About the Park: Bricktown Ballpark remorselessly punishes hitters. Think Comerica before the fences moved in, or the early years of Pac Bell Park, or Yankee Stadium during the ‘30s. The official website claims that “sluggers will enjoy a 325-foot left field porch,” but they’re not enjoying it very often. Redhawks and their opponents hit only 76 homers at the Brick compared to 129 in road parks. For Redhawk players, playing in Oklahoma depresses homers by almost 20%. That and the other factors are vital to understanding the performances of the Rangers’ AAA squad. For hitters, the park-adjusted average line was only .259/.331/.387, and for pitchers, the league average ERA was a tiny 3.89.

http://www.rangers.scottlucas.com/archives/2006/10/minor_league_re_6.html

Stats can only tell us so much inforfmation. From what I can see, The Redhawks home park is a pitchers park, that much I'll give you. I'd also like to know what the rest of the park's dimensions are before saying how much it does/soes not favor the pitchers.

One possibility that the Brick yeilded so few home runs is that the pitchers pitched to the parks strengths so to speak.

soxtalker
02-14-2007, 03:58 PM
Don't put words in Rosenthal's mouth. He never said the Garcia trade was the worst, he said it was a good move for the Phillies.

That's probably right. Rosenthal's latest article (Winners and losers for baseball's off-season) (http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/6466010?MSNHPHMA) posted today mentions 19 teams. The Phillies get rave reviews, and the Garcia trade is one major reason. The Sox, however, aren't mentioned. If he thought that the Sox had made a major mistake, we'd be listed among the losers.

caulfield12
02-14-2007, 05:04 PM
Who are you referring to in your above comment Floyd or Danks? If you're referring to Floyd, you've got the wrong trade. Floyd was obtained from the Phillies along with Gio Gongalez for Freddy Garcia. Danks was obtained from the Rangers along with Nick Masset for Brandon McCarthy.

Here is how Danks fared in 2006:

9-9, 4.24 ERA, 27g 26s, 140.0 IP, 141 h, 81 R, 66 ER, 22 HR, 56 BB, 154 K

Complete information on Danks available here (http://www.minorleaguebaseball.com/milb/stats/stats.jsp?n=John%20Danks&pos=P&sid=milb&t=p_pbp&pid=433579)


He was a 21 year old in AAA (just like Sweeney), and his IP/H ratio and BAA improved as he jumped from AA to AAA. Remember, it took Garland five years to fully "arrive" as an above-average major leaguer.

Assuming KW felt that McCarthy = or > Danks for 2008 (which we don't know for sure), he filled a hole in the bullpen and picked up a nice, "decent" potential A ball starter in Rasner.

FarWestChicago
02-14-2007, 06:18 PM
Fixed it for ya. :cool:The next time you pull that stunt you get a nice vacation.

PaulDrake
02-15-2007, 09:40 AM
KW really likes Massett. He thinks that he has closer stuff and that he will be in the Sox BP when the team breaks camp and for years to come. While I admit this has not been a happy off season for me, I too like Massett, and expect him to make a positive contribution in a much improved bullpen.

Tragg
02-17-2007, 02:16 PM
Even if Fingernails and Danks are almost a wash, KW got 2 other pitchers from the Rangers.

Unproven starter + non-prospect < unproven starer + reliever + lower-level prospect.

KW really likes Massett. He thinks that he has closer stuff and that he will be in the Sox BP when the team breaks camp and for years to come.

To be fair, McCarthy is much more proven than Danks. He was on a ML roster all of last year and for much of 2005. He has started many games, and has pitched well many times, including in important games (and not so well many times).

That's why we got extra pitchers and why we should have gotten extra pitchers in that trade. Because McCarthy has proven something - not enough but something.

I certainly liked McCarthy a lot, but it looks like a fair trade on paper - we certainly got a numerical advantage in terms of legit prospects at of that deal (3-1).

As for the Tribune going on and on and on about Williams not "doing enough" or whatever...they have a gross conflict of interest and a specific agenda, it's obvious and everyone knows it; I can tell that from reading the paper once a week in Louisiana.

DMarte708
02-17-2007, 03:23 PM
While I admit this has not been a happy off season for me, I too like Massett, and expect him to make a positive contribution in a much improved bullpen.
When you say you like Masset, do you like what you have heard, or have you personally seen him pitch?

Jerome
02-18-2007, 05:23 AM
http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/6466022

In 2006 the Sox finished in 3rd place because of Kenny's poor trades - Vazquez deal hurt the Sox last year and will for years to come and Thome deal hurt because they could have re-signed Big Frank and kept Rowand and Gio. If these 2 trades were not made the Sox most likely make the playoffs.


This is so dumb I can't even begin to respond to it :angry: :rolleyes: :o:

-Sox needed another starter, no one was sure how healthy El Duque was going to be. I had no problem with the Vazquez trade.
-Frank Thomas would have gotten paid a lot more money had he stayed on the Sox than the peanuts he received from Oakland. Also, Jim Thome had a great year. Frank was coming off a massive injury. LH power hitter was the biggest need for the 05 Sox, so what does Kenny do in the 06 offseason? get a LH power hitter.
-There is only 1 reason why the sox 'sucked' in 06. And it is the sole reason why they won the WS in 05. THE PITCHING
-*** did Rowand do in 06 to make people miss him so much?

caulfield12
02-18-2007, 06:47 AM
This is so dumb I can't even begin to respond to it :angry: :rolleyes: :o:

-Sox needed another starter, no one was sure how healthy El Duque was going to be. I had no problem with the Vazquez trade.
-Frank Thomas would have gotten paid a lot more money had he stayed on the Sox than the peanuts he received from Oakland. Also, Jim Thome had a great year. Frank was coming off a massive injury. LH power hitter was the biggest need for the 05 Sox, so what does Kenny do in the 06 offseason? get a LH power hitter.
-There is only 1 reason why the sox 'sucked' in 06. And it is the sole reason why they won the WS in 05. THE PITCHING
-*** did Rowand do in 06 to make people miss him so much?

FWIW, Thome made less than Thomas would have cost the White Sox, $10 million versus a little over $9 million for Thome (with the subsidy).

Nobody in baseball was going to take El Duque "straight up" in trade without a subsidy from the Sox, which turned out to be Chris Young, because the White Sox rarely give up cash. And he (El Duque) wasn't going to stay as a reliever at $6.5 million (with all the incentives he reached, that was his salary last year, only $3 million less than Vazquez)...and McCarthy obviously wasn't ready last year. And a straight up comparison of El Duque and Vazquez's numbers doesn't tell the story either.

Tragg
02-18-2007, 09:21 AM
I nitpick the trades as much, if not more, than the next guy.
Step back and you realize that Williams has done a really quality job as GM.

Williams has kept us incontention without throwing away the chance to contend in the next 5 years. That's what I want out of a GM.
Anything can happen in the playoffs - you just need to get there.

PaulDrake
02-18-2007, 03:10 PM
When you say you like Masset, do you like what you have heard, or have you personally seen him pitch? Let's just say that I have a friend I trust who's seen him pitch many times and tells me has the stuff and the attitude to close or set up.

Ziggy S
02-18-2007, 04:15 PM
I just have two questions about this whole thread.
One, how can anyone pick a "winner" or "loser" before we even reach Opening Day? Two, why would we assume Garcia will pitch better and have superior stats just because he is in the National League? Whatever, Philadelphia's park is called (Citizens Bank, I think), I do know it is considered pre-humidor Coors East. Jon Leiber's Philly career ERA was somewhere between 4.7 and 5.0. Who is to say "Big Game" Freddy (yeah, besides June, July, and August last year. Other than his two consecutive no-hitters and a stretch early in the season when we were in 1st or neck and neck with the Tiggers Freddy was brutal, especially when he would be spotted a four run lead and give it right back in the next half of the inning or next inning) will contribute so much to the Phillies next year, especially in that ballpark? I'm not saying Gavin or Gio will be better this coming season or even in the next couple, but Garcia, despite his 17 wins was not much better and until September actually pitched was than Buerlhe.

psyclonis
02-19-2007, 12:39 AM
If you still think the Vazquez trade wasn’t a crappy lopsided trade... you are a blind fool.
His 06 stats were on par with an avg 3rd/4th starter and his 04/05 stats only prove he'll repeat in 07. (The guy is 30 and past his prime)
I'll ignore the Orlando side of the deal since he was iffy for 06, but damn... lets trade a Top 5 prospect STUD for an overpaid 3rd starter (who crapped the bed on his last 10 starts where he went 0-6) while Freddy (who showed heart and won his last four games when his team needed him) gets traded for a project and a B prospect.

Not bashing KW (dorf is the main prob), but 07 is going to be our last shot for awhile considering dorf isn’t willing to pay pitchers what they deserve. I hope KW/dorf knows what they're doing.

I'm not saying Vazquez was the reason we didn’t make it (The crap bullpen,Buehlre and partly Contreras were the culprits) but ignoring the fact that it was a bad trade is foolish.

caulfield12
02-19-2007, 01:44 AM
If you still think the Vazquez trade wasn’t a crappy lopsided trade... you are a blind fool.
His 06 stats were on par with an avg 3rd/4th starter and his 04/05 stats only prove he'll repeat in 07. (The guy is 30 and past his prime)
I'll ignore the Orlando side of the deal since he was iffy for 06, but damn... lets trade a Top 5 prospect STUD for an overpaid 3rd starter (who crapped the bed on his last 10 starts where he went 0-6) while Freddy (who showed heart and won his last four games when his team needed him) gets traded for a project and a B prospect.

Not bashing KW (dorf is the main prob), but 07 is going to be our last shot for awhile considering dorf isn’t willing to pay pitchers what they deserve. I hope KW/dorf knows what they're doing.

I'm not saying Vazquez was the reason we didn’t make it (The crap bullpen,Buehlre and partly Contreras were the culprits) but ignoring the fact that it was a bad trade is foolish.

Vazquez had the worst run support in the AL during that stretch. He actually pitched more consistently than any White Sox pitcher the final two months, which is why W/L records aren't indicative. If you want to blame it on anyone, blame Buehrle and Contreras, although Jose was never the same after his injury, along with Garcia's disappearing act for the majority of the season. His 17 games won was not unlike Danny Wright's when he won 14 but had a 5+ ERA.

Garcia lost twice to the Royals in July and August (I think it was Hudson and Runelvys "I Ate My Way Out of Baseball" Hernandez) when we really needed him the most. The game at Anaheim was great, but two of those last four starts were basically meaningless games at that point in the season.

Garcia's IP/H ratio and BAA has been worsening, and his strikeouts have been plummeting downward. He can't keep a runner from stealing...which demoralizes the entire team and takes the wind out of their sales. He had, what, ONE run caught stealing all year against him?

rdivaldi
02-19-2007, 08:45 AM
lets trade a Top 5 prospect STUD for an overpaid 3rd starter (who crapped the bed on his last 10 starts where he went 0-6) while Freddy (who showed heart and won his last four games when his team needed him) gets traded for a project and a B prospect.

What? I'll admit Chris Young is an excellent prospect, but there is not a chance that he is one of the top 5 in baseball at this point. Plus you completely underrate Gio Gonzalez. B prospect? No way unless your name is John Sickels.