PDA

View Full Version : Gavin Floyd


whitesoxfan1986
02-07-2007, 03:01 PM
I was wondering what everybody's expectations for Floyd is for the season if he wins the #5 job. Looking at his career stats on whitesox.com it seems like Philly didn't give him much of a chance to straighten his stuff out at the ML level. He'd get rocked once or twice and they'd send him back to AAA. Does anyone think that given the chance he could turn into a quality ML starter? Remember that he was Philly's top prospect 2 years ago and was thought to be their future ace.

sox1970
02-07-2007, 03:10 PM
I have no expectations. Personally I think Charlie Haeger would be a great 5th starter, but I understand why they need to get Floyd in there this year.

chisoxmike
02-07-2007, 03:27 PM
I just fear we're going to play "who's starting today?" everytime we get to the fifth starter...

itsnotrequired
02-07-2007, 03:30 PM
I just fear we're going to play "who's starting today?" everytime we get to the fifth starter...

http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/gallery/data/3/medium/sox2_043.jpg

It begins...

Whitesox029
02-07-2007, 03:31 PM
Call me overly optimistic, but I really think Cooper can work with this guy and hopefully turn him into the next Garland, Contreras, Jenks, etc...He was selected 4th overall in the draft. I just think there has to be something to that.

chisoxmike
02-07-2007, 03:38 PM
It begins...
:tongue:

esbrechtel
02-07-2007, 03:42 PM
I'd like to see him succeed, I have a good feeling so far the recent phillies we have picked up have played well....

whitesoxwilkes
02-07-2007, 03:45 PM
http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/gallery/data/3/medium/sox2_043.jpg

It begins...

That picture is the wallpaper on my laptop.

Floyd is the perfect Don Cooper project. I am cautiously optimistic that he can contribute this year.

WhiteSox5187
02-07-2007, 03:51 PM
I think he's gonna be about 12-12. And there will be games where he looks lights out and there are going to be games where he gets shelled. I'm thinking he's gonna be like Jon Garland circa 2002. Eventually though, he's gonna work out.

WizardsofOzzie
02-07-2007, 03:55 PM
I think he's gonna be about 12-12. And there will be games where he looks lights out and there are going to be games where he gets shelled. I'm thinking he's gonna be like Jon Garland circa 2002. Eventually though, he's gonna work out.
If we could get 12 wins out of Gloyd and around 15-18 apiece (which they have all done before) from the other 4 starters, it would be so fantastic :praying:

balke
02-07-2007, 04:03 PM
I am really not looking forward to going from 6 starters to 4. My hopeful expectation for Floyd is that he win 10 games if he starts all season.

What I expect is to see Danny Wright all over again as the Sox drudge through 3 or 4 fifth starters all season. We are really in trouble if someone from the starting rotation gets injured.

Can't really decide what I really think til I see some Spring Training pitching.

PaulDrake
02-07-2007, 04:09 PM
If we get double digit wins from Gavin Floyd this year I'll buy a case of Stella Artois and make sure I toast him every time I pop the cap.

sox1970
02-07-2007, 04:11 PM
I think he's gonna be about 12-12. And there will be games where he looks lights out and there are going to be games where he gets shelled. I'm thinking he's gonna be like Jon Garland circa 2002. Eventually though, he's gonna work out.

Yeah, that would be on the high end for Floyd this year.

I hope they skip the 5th starter whenever possible this year. Maybe give the 5th guy 26-27 starts and everyone else 34 starts.

Zisk77
02-07-2007, 04:16 PM
Cy Young baby!:rolleyes:

itsnotrequired
02-07-2007, 04:18 PM
I hope they skip the 5th starter whenever possible this year. Maybe give the 5th guy 26-27 starts and everyone else 34 starts.

I don't like that plan at all. The other guys are workhorses but I don't see a need to have all of them throw an extra 12-15 innings.

balke
02-07-2007, 04:19 PM
Its gotta say something that people were going berserk last season because they didn't want Javier in the #5 spot last season, and now he's #4 with an unproven rook at #5.

So far I really like our bullpen, but its looking like they won't have much to save this season. If Gavin Floyd could come out and be a stud, the Sox would have a great team though.

sox1970
02-07-2007, 04:37 PM
I don't like that plan at all. The other guys are workhorses but I don't see a need to have all of them throw an extra 12-15 innings.

Big deal. What's one or two more starts? I'm not saying pitch them on short rest, but with extra off days here and there, I'm thinking more of the young 5th starter not getting burned out by August. If I guy hasn't pitched more than 170 innings in a season, I don't want to expect them to pitch 200 this year.

balke
02-07-2007, 04:44 PM
Big deal. What's one or two more starts? I'm not saying pitch them on short rest, but with extra off days here and there, I'm thinking more of the young 5th starter not getting burned out by August. If I guy hasn't pitched more than 170 innings in a season, I don't want to expect them to pitch 200 this year.


We saw that movie a few times in the Danny Wright era. Bullpen as 5th starter, 5th starter by committee, skip 1-2 starts, it wore down that staff all around. That 5th starter spot needs to be there so the starting 4 can focus on their games and win. I remember they thought Garland could pitch every 3 days back then, and I really think that's what held him back from becoming the pitcher he is today sooner.

spiffie
02-07-2007, 04:50 PM
The Sox have Don Cooper, the magic man on staff. Look at what he's done with Contreras, Garland, Thornton, Jenks, etc. I'm expecting nothing less than 14 wins and an ERA around 4.20 from Floyd this year. He has all the talent in the world, that's why Kenny traded for him. I swear people forget the track record of this organization. Everyone is in a rush to be the biggest doomsayer. Well some people believe in Cooper, Ozzie, Kenny, and the players they bring in. Floyd will do wonderfully. Anyone who disagrees with that...well how many World Series winning teams have you put together?

veeter
02-07-2007, 05:04 PM
I'll bet he has a better year than Vasquez did last year.

Jurr
02-07-2007, 05:05 PM
I kept reading that Floyd has a slight delivery flaw. Some kind of hitch that he gets into that kills him. Cooper fixed a flaw with Contreras that Stottlemeyer didn't even see. Same with Thornton.

In Coop we trust.

itsnotrequired
02-07-2007, 05:26 PM
Big deal. What's one or two more starts? I'm not saying pitch them on short rest, but with extra off days here and there, I'm thinking more of the young 5th starter not getting burned out by August. If I guy hasn't pitched more than 170 innings in a season, I don't want to expect them to pitch 200 this year.

Many believe the extra innings the starters pitched in the '05 postseason played a part in their struggles in '06. The top 4 starters should make regular starts but not more than they need to. I wasn't advocating a young pitcher throwing 200 innings in his first season.

whitesoxfan1986
02-07-2007, 05:53 PM
I kept reading that Floyd has a slight delivery flaw. Some kind of hitch that he gets into that kills him. Cooper fixed a flaw with Contreras that Stottlemeyer didn't even see. Same with Thornton.

In Coop we trust.

If that is the case, then maybe he'll get his FB back to the mid-90s and live up to his promise as the #4 overall pick in 2001.

Domeshot17
02-07-2007, 05:55 PM
Coop's going to be busy. Somehow, in Spring Training, he has to find a way to Fix Floyd-Buehlre-Sisco-Aardsma while working on Denks,Masset,Haeger and finding time to tune back up Garland Contreras and get Vazquez to start 2007 how he finished 2006. Coop is the best, but I really wish we got a few more established arms for the pen (although, if this works, Its golden).

IndianWhiteSox
02-07-2007, 06:36 PM
If we get double digit wins from Gavin Floyd this year I'll buy a case of Stella Artois and make sure I toast him every time I pop the cap.

I'm gonna hold you to that as I think he could be the surprise of the year maybe winning 15 games with Coop as the pitching coach and also at the proper age where pitchers seem to turn the corner.

soxwon
02-07-2007, 06:54 PM
My prediction is Floyd will win as many games as mccarthy will
our 5 will have as many wins as texas #3 ha ha.
all 5 of our starters will win 10 or more.
book it.

PaulDrake
02-07-2007, 07:31 PM
I'm gonna hold you to that as I think he could be the surprise of the year maybe winning 15 games with Coop as the pitching coach and also at the proper age where pitchers seem to turn the corner.Do you like Stella Artois? How much does it cost to send some to India? I don't think very much of Gavin Floyd, but I hope you're right and I'm wrong.

ShoelessJoeS
02-07-2007, 07:42 PM
We saw that movie a few times in the Danny Wright era. Bullpen as 5th starter, 5th starter by committee, skip 1-2 starts, it wore down that staff all around. That 5th starter spot needs to be there so the starting 4 can focus on their games and win. I remember they thought Garland could pitch every 3 days back then, and I really think that's what held him back from becoming the pitcher he is today sooner.I'll never forget the game where AAA Felix Diaz beat the mighty Zambrano. It still is one of the best games I've ever attented to this day.

Hagan
02-07-2007, 07:47 PM
I do not see Floyd doing anything for us this year if he gets the #5 spot at one time during the season. His numbers from the majors and minors have been pretty bad the last two years. He is a fly ball pitcher to which i do not see going over well in US Cellular.

Daver
02-07-2007, 07:51 PM
Many believe the extra innings the starters pitched in the '05 postseason played a part in their struggles in '06. The top 4 starters should make regular starts but not more than they need to. I wasn't advocating a young pitcher throwing 200 innings in his first season.

This is why pitchers should throw more, everyday.

itsnotrequired
02-07-2007, 08:07 PM
This is why pitchers should throw more, everyday.

Bring forth the long toss.:cool:

Hitmen77
02-07-2007, 08:08 PM
I'm really curious to see what Gavin Floyd can do. His numbers haven't been impressive at all. KW said he liked what he saw of Floyd in the fall league, but his numbers there were bad too.

I'm not saying KW is wrong - because certainly I am not there like the scouts are - but still, it does make me wonder what KW and the Sox scouts saw in Floyd to really be sold on him.

chisoxmike
02-07-2007, 08:24 PM
I'm really curious to see what Gavin Floyd can do. His numbers haven't been impressive at all. KW said he liked what he saw of Floyd in the fall league, but his numbers there were bad too.

I'm not saying KW is wrong - because certainly I am not there like the scouts are - but still, it does make me wonder what KW and the Sox scouts saw in Floyd to really be sold on him.


Exactly. KW has been saying for months now how great Floyd is and how when the trade happend, he had some GMs go up to him saying "What a great trade." And my favorite line..."A lot of people seem to think that McCarthy was our #5 starter for '07. What a lot of people don't know, he wasn't. He was going to have to battle Gavin Floyd." Oooooooo! Snap! Burn!

I don't know. If he got rocked in the NL, what's going to happen in the AL?

Brian26
02-07-2007, 08:31 PM
That picture is the wallpaper on my laptop.


That picture is amazing. Does anybody know what night that was taken? Was it that stormy Friday night game to end the season last year?

balke
02-07-2007, 08:33 PM
I'll never forget the game where AAA Felix Diaz beat the mighty Zambrano. It still is one of the best games I've ever attented to this day.


Yeah I had such big hopes for the guy after that game. He seemed like he could throw the ball over the plate and get some people out unlike any other starter that tried that 5th spot. Then he just got lit up over and over again.

itsnotrequired
02-07-2007, 08:34 PM
Was it that stormy Friday night game to end the season last year?

Yep. Credit jenn2080 with the pic.

Brian26
02-07-2007, 08:34 PM
If we get double digit wins from Gavin Floyd this year I'll buy a case of Stella Artois and make sure I toast him every time I pop the cap.

Take this for what its worth (which should be a lot actually), but Kenny said at Soxfest that Floyd was unattainable two years ago. He said, "you couldn't get this guy." To a certain extent, that obviously isn't true since, for the right package, anybody could be had. But in context he's saying the Phillies gave up on a guy who had all the talent in the world a year ago.

Brian26
02-07-2007, 08:36 PM
Yep. Credit jenn2080 with the pic.

That was going to be my last game of the season but I couldn't make it back downtown in time due to the weather.

That's one of those pictures that looks so good you question whether or not it is fake.

Murphy10
02-07-2007, 08:36 PM
I'm definitely going to set my expectations low for Gavin. So if he does well I will be overly impressed, and if he doesn't do well I think we have a good enough back up in Hagear, so I'm not to worried.

Overall though I think he will struggle just a bit giving up four and five runs consistently, just not getting rocked. Then lke an earlier poster said, Coop will straighten him up and Gavin will turn to be an outstanding pitcher in the future.

IndianWhiteSox
02-07-2007, 08:37 PM
Do you like Stella Artois? How much does it cost to send some to India? I don't think very much of Gavin Floyd, but I hope you're right and I'm wrong.

Any drink that's free is ok with me and I'll come back to the US just for the case. But I really think that Gavin Floyd will be our diamond in the rough having this statline- 15-8, 3.58 ERA and 210IP

balke
02-07-2007, 08:39 PM
Any drink that's free is ok with me and I'll come back to the US just for the case. But I really think that Gavin Floyd will be our diamond in the rough having this statline- 15-8, 3.58 ERA and 210IP


I wanna believe with you, but right now it sounds like you're drinking Kool-aid for free. I should wait til Spring Training to think anything though.

IndianWhiteSox
02-07-2007, 08:42 PM
I wanna believe with you, but right now it sounds like you're drinking Kool-aid for free. I should wait til Spring Training to think anything though.

I thought this was the place where we could be excited about the White Sox?
:dunno:

balke
02-07-2007, 08:45 PM
I thought this was the place where we could be excited about the White Sox?
:dunno:


No, you're right. I'm down too soon. Nervous about this new acquisition. I was comfortable with Garcia. I'd love for a young pitcher to work out for the Sox like Garland has.

itsnotrequired
02-07-2007, 08:45 PM
That was going to be my last game of the season but I couldn't make it back downtown in time due to the weather.

That's one of those pictures that looks so good you question whether or not it is fake.

I tried unsuccessfully to get a good pic of that further to the west in Lot B but it just didn't work out. Then she takes one pic and its damn near perfect.

A. Cavatica
02-07-2007, 10:24 PM
In my book, a dark cloud is someone who interprets a situation more negatively than it already is.

Since Deep Pink Floyd has 108 major league innings under his belt and a career 6.96 ERA, it's not being a dark cloud to expect him to suck. He could actually shave two runs off that career ERA and still suck.

Sorry, but those of you who are dreaming of double-digit victories are the unrealistic ones.

chisoxmike
02-07-2007, 10:31 PM
Any drink that's free is ok with me and I'll come back to the US just for the case. But I really think that Gavin Floyd will be our diamond in the rough having this statline- 15-8, 3.58 ERA and 210IP

I'm in the 6-9 record with a 4.50 ERA state of mind, but that's just me...

ondafarm
02-07-2007, 10:38 PM
Being drafted number four overall normally means that all of baseball thinks you are one of the twenty best available players. That pretty much means you've got very solid potential and the only real question is how will you adapt to being a professional, will you work really hard and polish your skills.

Gavin Floyd has clearly done enough working hard and polished his skills to get to the majors. Unfortunately, he hasn't quite finished the process. Frequently the last steps are mental: knowing and acting like you belong there, realizing how to play your game and recognizing the speed/power of the major league game.

Floyd needed a change of scenery and may need to hear the exact same things from a different pitching coach. My opinion is that Cooper is a pretty good coach and has a way of convincing head cases that they belong and that they should just do what they know. He certainly did it with Thornton, and Floyd has an even higher ceiling than Thornton.

My expectations, 13-8 4.15 era.

WhiteSox5187
02-08-2007, 01:18 AM
In my book, a dark cloud is someone who interprets a situation more negatively than it already is.

Since Deep Pink Floyd has 108 major league innings under his belt and a career 6.96 ERA, it's not being a dark cloud to expect him to suck. He could actually shave two runs off that career ERA and still suck.

Sorry, but those of you who are dreaming of double-digit victories are the unrealistic ones.
I guess we're pinning our hopes in Coop. KW is either going to look like a genius or a complete moron at the end of this year.

Grzegorz
02-08-2007, 04:46 AM
This is why pitchers should throw more, everyday.

You're Johnny Sain reincarnated!

I see twelve to fifteen victories from the fifth spot in the rotation.

WizardsofOzzie
02-08-2007, 07:12 AM
Anyone know what Floyd's pitching arsenal consists of?

caulfield12
02-08-2007, 07:18 AM
Anyone know what Floyd's pitching arsenal consists of?

Floyd opened 2005 in the big leagues but struggled with his consistency and role, as he was not mentally prepared for bullpen work. Manager Larry Bowa quickly lost confidence in him after Floyd surrendered eight and then five runs in successive bullpen stints. Floyd was a premium pick on the strength of his lively 94 mph fastball and hard, 12-to-6 curveball, but seemed to lack conviction in the pitches when he struggled, causing both to lose bite. He has split 2005 and 2006 between Triple-A Scranton/Wilkes-Barre and Philadelphia, struggling mightily in the majors performing decently in the minors. The Phillies had lost patience in Floyd, making him a perfect change-of-scenery candidate.

from baseballamerica.com

jenn2080
02-08-2007, 07:18 AM
http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/gallery/data/3/medium/sox2_043.jpg

It begins...


I took this one. God I am good! :bandance:

cws05champ
02-08-2007, 07:48 AM
I had a dream that Floyd becomes an ace type pitcher this year: 16-7 3.31 ERA. Then again...it was only a dream, I hope reality is not a nightmare on 35th street!!!

PaulDrake
02-08-2007, 08:10 AM
I guess we're pinning our hopes in Coop. KW is either going to look like a genius or a complete moron at the end of this year. That's pretty much what I've been trying to say this off season. Naturally, I'm hoping he'll come out of all this a genius.

Jurr
02-08-2007, 08:14 AM
Anyone know what Floyd's pitching arsenal consists of?
From the Sporting News Scouting:
"Throws: A fastball from 88-92, a curveball, and a changeup.
Tendencies: Has above average stuff but struggles with confidence. Tends to overanalyze, and has difficulty repeating his delivery. Has lost a little velocity on his once mid-90s fastball. Curve can be his best pitch but is inconsistent; it too often has a big lateral break that's hard to control. Has good movement on his change and should use it more. Does not handle adversity well.
Outlook: Floyd will benefit from a fresh start after the Phils gave up on him. The Sox gambled by taking him in the Freddy Garcia trade and will give him every chance to win the 5th spot. "

INSox56
02-08-2007, 08:18 AM
I kept reading that Floyd has a slight delivery flaw. Some kind of hitch that he gets into that kills him. Cooper fixed a flaw with Contreras that Stottlemeyer didn't even see. Same with Thornton.

In Coop we trust.
All due respect to Coop, Thornton actually said that what Coop further emphasized as a problem was something he'd already begun working on with Seattle's coaching staff.

In my book, a dark cloud is someone who interprets a situation more negatively than it already is.

Since Deep Pink Floyd has 108 major league innings under his belt and a career 6.96 ERA, it's not being a dark cloud to expect him to suck. He could actually shave two runs off that career ERA and still suck.

Sorry, but those of you who are dreaming of double-digit victories are the unrealistic ones.

I really understand where you're coming from, but look at Thornton's 2005 versus 2006 stats... http://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/stats/individual_stats_player.jsp?c_id=cws&playerID=407819

Coop says the same thing about Floyd that he did about Thornton and others as to a delivery flaw or two and confidence issues and look what it's done for them. He's obviously got talent...let's see if a Thornton-like or Jenks-like correction can be made. Hell, I'd even take a correction that's half that good, still making him a pretty decent pitcher.

WizardsofOzzie
02-08-2007, 08:35 AM
From the Sporting News Scouting:
"Throws: A fastball from 88-92, a curveball, and a changeup.
Tendencies: Has above average stuff but struggles with confidence. Tends to overanalyze, and has difficulty repeating his delivery. Has lost a little velocity on his once mid-90s fastball. Curve can be his best pitch but is inconsistent; it too often has a big lateral break that's hard to control. Has good movement on his change and should use it more. Does not handle adversity well.
Outlook: Floyd will benefit from a fresh start after the Phils gave up on him. The Sox gambled by taking him in the Freddy Garcia trade and will give him every chance to win the 5th spot. "

Floyd opened 2005 in the big leagues but struggled with his consistency and role, as he was not mentally prepared for bullpen work. Manager Larry Bowa quickly lost confidence in him after Floyd surrendered eight and then five runs in successive bullpen stints. Floyd was a premium pick on the strength of his lively 94 mph fastball and hard, 12-to-6 curveball, but seemed to lack conviction in the pitches when he struggled, causing both to lose bite. He has split 2005 and 2006 between Triple-A Scranton/Wilkes-Barre and Philadelphia, struggling mightily in the majors performing decently in the minors. The Phillies had lost patience in Floyd, making him a perfect change-of-scenery candidate.

from baseballamerica.com

Thank you both!

russ99
02-08-2007, 08:51 AM
I don't know.

Actually, I think Danks has a much higher ceiling that Floyd and he could overtake him as early as this season.

The tricky part for the Sox, is how many starts do they give Floyd (after spring training) if he remains at his '06 Phillies form. They can't be too patient (5th starter black hole), but they gave up Garcia for him so they can't just toss the kid away...

Also, I don't see Haeger as a factor until it gets warmer and his knuckleball really starts to flutter. The Astros had a knuckleballer up with them a few years ago on a cold night early in the season in Cincy. The knuckler just died before the plate in the cold weather, and he got hammered for something like 11 runs in 2 innings. I wonder if Haeger has a few more plus pitches that could get him through an early-season outing.

chisoxmike
02-08-2007, 09:28 AM
From the Sporting News Scouting:
". Does not handle adversity well.


That's just great...

Sargeant79
02-08-2007, 09:29 AM
They can't be too patient (5th starter black hole), but they gave up Garcia for him so they can't just toss the kid away...


While I'm sure they have high hopes for Floyd, I think getting Gio Gonzalez back was just as important in that trade if not more so.

KW got two talented young arms in the hopes that at least one will pan out. It's time to see what Floyd is about now...Gio won't get his turn for a year or two.

maurice
02-08-2007, 12:30 PM
We probably can live with 2002 Danny Wright (14 W & almost 200 IP), before his shoulder and his elbow started to fall apart.

Floyd has 108 major league innings under his belt and a career 6.96 ERA, it's not being a dark cloud to expect him to suck. He could actually shave two runs off that career ERA and still suck.

I don't know about that. A 4.96 ERA isn't too shabby for a #5 starter in the AL. He doesn't have to be great . . . just adequate in the role that he probably will be given. Will he be able to pull it off? I have absolutely no idea.

In Coopy We Trusty.

Jerome
02-08-2007, 01:05 PM
I'll never forget the game where AAA Felix Diaz beat the mighty Zambrano. It still is one of the best games I've ever attented to this day.

yeah whatever happend to that guy? that was a great game

Jerome
02-08-2007, 01:07 PM
In Coopy We Trusty.

sig material:)

munchman33
02-08-2007, 03:42 PM
In my book, a dark cloud is someone who interprets a situation more negatively than it already is.

Since Deep Pink Floyd has 108 major league innings under his belt and a career 6.96 ERA, it's not being a dark cloud to expect him to suck. He could actually shave two runs off that career ERA and still suck.

Sorry, but those of you who are dreaming of double-digit victories are the unrealistic ones.

We're not exactly talking about Jim Parque here. This guy has plus major league stuff and a severe confidence issue. Very similar to a lot of the guys we've had come through here and work through there problems with one of the better pitching coaches in baseball.

ondafarm
02-08-2007, 04:32 PM
While I'm sure they have high hopes for Floyd, I think getting Gio Gonzalez back was just as important in that trade if not more so.

KW got two talented young arms in the hopes that at least one will pan out. It's time to see what Floyd is about now...Gio won't get his turn for a year or two.

I disagree. If KW has been doing one thing in the last several years it is avoiding taking flyers and taking missused, underachievers and guys who lack confidence. Look at Uribe in Colorado for example. In Floyd they got a classic one of those and in Gio they got a known quantity who learnt a new trick or two.

In five years, if the Sox have two fine starters from this deal, even if Freddy wins 15 a year for the Phillies, the Sox will come out way ahead.

UserNameBlank
02-08-2007, 04:43 PM
Coop's going to be busy. Somehow, in Spring Training, he has to find a way to Fix Floyd-Buehlre-Sisco-Aardsma while working on Denks,Masset,Haeger and finding time to tune back up Garland Contreras and get Vazquez to start 2007 how he finished 2006. Coop is the best, but I really wish we got a few more established arms for the pen (although, if this works, Its golden).

Great point. Someone needs to give that guy more money, because if he helps just 4 of those guys turn into quality major league pitchers, that means at the going rate of ~ 4mil/season for a bullpen arm and ~ 11mil/season for a starter, he will have saved the Sox roughly 23mil per season or more.

UserNameBlank
02-08-2007, 04:50 PM
I disagree. If KW has been doing one thing in the last several years it is avoiding taking flyers and taking missused, underachievers and guys who lack confidence. Look at Uribe in Colorado for example. In Floyd they got a classic one of those and in Gio they got a known quantity who learnt a new trick or two.

In five years, if the Sox have two fine starters from this deal, even if Freddy wins 15 a year for the Phillies, the Sox will come out way ahead.

I agree. KW also loves those high potential players coming off of down and/or injury riddled years. Look at Pods, Thome, Dye, Politte, etc.

The most KW-like move this season IMO was the Sisco-Gload deal. That has the potential to pay HUGE dividends for the Sox. I just wish the Sox would have sent Broadway or some other low ceiling future major league pitcher in the deal to get Burgos, too. That would have been sweet. Instead the Mets got him for Bannister.

IronFisk
02-08-2007, 05:12 PM
http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/gallery/data/3/medium/sox2_043.jpg

It begins...

It should.

caulfield12
02-08-2007, 06:50 PM
I agree. KW also loves those high potential players coming off of down and/or injury riddled years. Look at Pods, Thome, Dye, Politte, etc.

The most KW-like move this season IMO was the Sisco-Gload deal. That has the potential to pay HUGE dividends for the Sox. I just wish the Sox would have sent Broadway or some other low ceiling future major league pitcher in the deal to get Burgos, too. That would have been sweet. Instead the Mets got him for Bannister.


I don't think that Dayton Moore would dare trade Burgos to the White Sox with the power arm collection we already have...although Broadway might have been tempting.

I get the sense they're taking stabs at "high ceiling" guys too, like Jorge Dela Rosa, Greinke, Bannister, Denny Bautista, etc.

FedEx227
02-08-2007, 06:55 PM
I don't think that Dayton Moore would dare trade Burgos to the White Sox with the power arm collection we already have...although Broadway might have been tempting.

I get the sense they're taking stabs at "high ceiling" guys too, like Jorge Dela Rosa, Greinke, Bannister, Denny Bautista, etc.

Not sure if you guys were aware but Burgos got traded to the Mets in the offseason. Great deal for them, he's got great stuff, just needs the right direction.

A. Cavatica
02-08-2007, 07:16 PM
A 4.96 ERA isn't too shabby for a #5 starter in the AL. He doesn't have to be great . . . just adequate in the role that he probably will be given. Will he be able to pull it off? I have absolutely no idea.

In Coopy We Trusty.

Look, I think Coop's a great pitching coach, but 2006 showed that he's not perfect (or maybe he has too many "projects" going at the same time). Sure, we can hope he'll fix Deep Pink, but we have to expect a performance reasonably close to his past performance. I am not even close to trusting him to fill the #5 role.

Mark Buehrle put up a 5 ERA and was a huge disappointment, but at least he'd earned the right to keep pitching. Would you want Jae Seo (1-8, 5.00) as your fifth starter?

jabrch
02-08-2007, 07:23 PM
I don't know.

Actually, I think Danks has a much higher ceiling that Floyd and he could overtake him as early as this season.


Danks has way more potential - he's just not quite MLB ready yet. I dout we see him this year. I'd be surprised if he's not in our rotation next year however, and probably ahead of Floyd by the end of 2008. Gio also - maybe in 2008.

But for 2007 I think Floyd will be given every chance to be the #5.

caulfield12
02-08-2007, 08:09 PM
Not sure if you guys were aware but Burgos got traded to the Mets in the offseason. Great deal for them, he's got great stuff, just needs the right direction.

Ummm...I live in KC, lol.

santo=dorf
02-08-2007, 08:50 PM
My honest prediction, I think he'll suck, and then people will defend the trade saying "We had to let Freddy go. He was making too much money." To which the FOLIP will respond with "The Sox are a major market team. They're being cheap. Starting pitching is too valuable to let go." Then the opposition will say "The Sox are cheap?!?!? The payroll is almost $100 million."

It's going to be ugly :anon:

ondafarm
02-08-2007, 09:22 PM
My honest prediction, I think he'll suck, and then people will defend the trade saying "We had to let Freddy go. He was making too much money." To which the FOLIP will respond with "The Sox are a major market team. They're being cheap. Starting pitching is too valuable to let go." Then the opposition will say "The Sox are cheap?!?!? The payroll is almost $100 million."

It's going to be ugly :anon:

Luckily, you are not in forecasting or know diddly about baseball.

UserNameBlank
02-08-2007, 09:23 PM
I don't think that Dayton Moore would dare trade Burgos to the White Sox with the power arm collection we already have...although Broadway might have been tempting.

I get the sense they're taking stabs at "high ceiling" guys too, like Jorge Dela Rosa, Greinke, Bannister, Denny Bautista, etc.

I would normally agree with you, but man, if I were Dayton Moore there's no way I would have sent Sisco to a division rival in anything less than an exchange of high-ceiling prospects who have failed to reach their potential, like the Borchard-Thornton trade for example. From the Royals perspective, the MacDougal deal must have been much easier to swallow since they got Lumsden and MacDougal has been riddled with injuries.

I just couldn't believe they gave up Burgos for Bannister. I haven't seen him pitch or anything, but nothing I've ever read about him says anything about him being a high ceiling guy. It seems he is being looked at as a major league 4th-5th starter and innings eater, but to me the Royals have that already in Luke Hudson. Burgos OTOH I think will turn out to be one of those "effectively wild" closers that scare the **** out of opposing hitters. I find it hard to believe that the Royals couldn't have packaged Sisco+Burgos and maybe a midlevel prospect for something much better than a fifth starter and a bench player. They still have to do something with Huber, too. Those three together could have probably gotten them a pretty nice return.

PaulDrake
02-08-2007, 09:32 PM
Luckily, you are not in forecasting or know diddly about baseball. I was thinking the same thing he was. Spring training is on the horizon and I hope Floyd can begin to prove us naysayers wrong.

itsnotrequired
02-08-2007, 09:35 PM
Luckily, you are not in forecasting or know diddly about baseball.

But he does seem to know how WSI works.:redneck

Mohoney
02-10-2007, 09:09 PM
I just couldn't believe they gave up Burgos for Bannister. I haven't seen him pitch or anything, but nothing I've ever read about him says anything about him being a high ceiling guy. It seems he is being looked at as a major league 4th-5th starter and innings eater, but to me the Royals have that already in Luke Hudson.

Maybe Moore's master plan calls for 2 or 3 of those guys. Maybe he wants to build a lights-out bullpen and couple that with run-of-the-mill starters, as long as the starters eat innings.

Look at Melvin with the Brewers. He committed $42 million dollars to Jeff Suppan JUST for the 800+ innings. Moore might think of Bannister as 1000+ innings at a FRACTION of that price.

Then again, he signed Gil Freaking Meche for $55 million dollars, so he very well could be way behind the curve.

If I had to guess, I would guess that the Royals will have 5 consecutive seasons of 90+ loss baseball during Meche's contract, and Moore will be crucified by fans on message boards like these.

Optipessimism
02-10-2007, 09:29 PM
Maybe Moore's master plan calls for 2 or 3 of those guys. Maybe he wants to build a lights-out bullpen and couple that with run-of-the-mill starters, as long as the starters eat innings.

Look at Melvin with the Brewers. He committed $42 million dollars to Jeff Suppan JUST for the 800+ innings. Moore might think of Bannister as 1000+ innings at a FRACTION of that price.

Then again, he signed Gil Freaking Meche for $55 million dollars, so he very well could be way behind the curve.

If I had to guess, I would guess that the Royals will have 5 consecutive seasons of 90+ loss baseball during Meche's contract, and Moore will be crucified by fans on message boards like these.

If Moore's plan is to fill a rotation with 200IP+, 5.00+ ERA guys then his effigy should be on fire somewhere. The Meche move was certainly interesting, but at least Gil still has some potential with his arm. If nothing else as long as Meche stays healthy they should be able to trade him for something useful.

I didn't get the Suppan signing at all. Instead of mediocrity at all that money they could have gotten slightly below medicority in players like Jason Johnson, Tony Armas, Jr., etc. for virtually nothing. All-Star Mark Redman is still out there also and would have been a much, much cheaper alternative.

caulfield12
02-10-2007, 10:15 PM
The Royals are not that far off...as far as many would like to think. The Meche signing was about adding a solid, veteran starter with "upside" (due to injuries over his career, and the idea they should be behind him) to build the staff around with young arms.

Ponder this rotation for 2008. It might be close or better than what the White Sox put out there.

Luke Hochevar (1st round draft pick)
Zach Greinke
Gil Meche
Odalis Perez (Dodgers are paying all of his contract)
Brian Bannister

Like the Cubs, they have a ton of 4th/5th starters and spare pieces.

They can trade or develop Jorge DeLaRosa (power arm, but wild), Todd Wellemeyer and Jimmy Gobble, not to mention Scott Elarton...in order to get some more young arms back in return ala KW. I would say the Royals might be better off than the Cubs, even. It is all predicated on Greinke and Hochevar, just like White Sox plans rely on at least two of their six young pitchers becoming 1-3 caliber starters.

Then you have Tyler Lumsden as well...who will eventually fight with Bannister for the 5th starter's role.

You can see the logic of the Meche deal...a bridge between this rotation and 2008/09/10. Worst case scenario, they trade him and get some more young arms, along with dealing Dotel, Reggie Sanders, Emil Brown, Berroa and Mike Sweeney at the break. I'm sure they have an insurance policy for Meche as well, like we had for David Wells in 2001.

Optipessimism
02-10-2007, 10:30 PM
Nice post, caulfield! It's nice to see a realistic view of the Royals instead of this "they sucked last year so they will always suck" view.

By August, the Royals starting lineup could look something like this:

CF Dejesus
2B Grudzielanek
LF Teahen
3B Gordon
1B Shealy
DH Butler
SS Berroa
RF Costa/Brown
C Buck/LaRue

...and that is without making some of the possible trades the Royals can explore (they can trade Sweeney, Riske, Dotel, Elarton or Hudson, Perez or DeLaRosa, Gobble, Huber, Brown or Costa, Sanders, Huber). Plus they should really think about moving Berroa if they can. They need strength up the middle. Out of all those players that are expendable, the Royals can create some nice packages and should be able to get some solid bullpen arms and worthwhile minor leaguers. That is unless of course they decide to make more Bannister-for-Burgos, Gload-for-Sisco type moves.

IndianWhiteSox
02-11-2007, 01:02 AM
Nice post, caulfield! It's nice to see a realistic view of the Royals instead of this "they sucked last year so they will always suck" view.

By August, the Royals starting lineup could look something like this:

CF Dejesus
2B Grudzielanek
LF Teahen
3B Gordon
1B Shealy
DH Butler
SS Berroa
RF Costa/Brown
C Buck/LaRue

...and that is without making some of the possible trades the Royals can explore (they can trade Sweeney, Riske, Dotel, Elarton or Hudson, Perez or DeLaRosa, Gobble, Huber, Brown or Costa, Sanders, Huber). Plus they should really think about moving Berroa if they can. They need strength up the middle. Out of all those players that are expendable, the Royals can create some nice packages and should be able to get some solid bullpen arms and worthwhile minor leaguers. That is unless of course they decide to make more Bannister-for-Burgos, Gload-for-Sisco type moves.

As screwed up as this sounds, they could be 2007's version of the 2006 Tigers(without the world series berth).

cws05champ
02-11-2007, 07:26 AM
Nice post, caulfield! It's nice to see a realistic view of the Royals instead of this "they sucked last year so they will always suck" view.

By August, the Royals starting lineup could look something like this:

CF Dejesus
2B Grudzielanek
LF Teahen
3B Gordon
1B Shealy
DH Butler
SS Berroa
RF Costa/Brown
C Buck/LaRue

...and that is without making some of the possible trades the Royals can explore (they can trade Sweeney, Riske, Dotel, Elarton or Hudson, Perez or DeLaRosa, Gobble, Huber, Brown or Costa, Sanders, Huber). Plus they should really think about moving Berroa if they can. They need strength up the middle. Out of all those players that are expendable, the Royals can create some nice packages and should be able to get some solid bullpen arms and worthwhile minor leaguers. That is unless of course they decide to make more Bannister-for-Burgos, Gload-for-Sisco type moves.

Couldn't you see the Royals making a move for a guy like BJ Upton here in the next year as well?

caulfield12
02-11-2007, 07:51 AM
The Royals have some key decisions to make.

One of them is what to do with Berroa. They keep waiting for him to return to his rookie stats and concentration/focus defensively. He's their version of Juan Uribe...without the power.

I think they need to package some of their spare parts together and get someone like Aybar from the Angels...they won't be able to get Wood.

Berroa has a horrible OBP and hasn't been a solid and predictable defender since his rookie year.

They also need to decide if it's best to trade Teahen or make him a LF/DH (can they get a decent pitcher in return, possibly)....whether Justin Gathright is an everyday major leaguer (doubtful) and whether Ryan Shealy is an everyday 1B (60-75% chance it's affirmative).

LaRue provides some nice insurance for Buck, who's in the same position as Berroa...not quite bad enough not to be the starter, but not creating any confidence he's the long-term answer there either.

The Royals have tried Andres Blanco at SS and he's our version of Pedro Gomez. All field, no hit.

caulfield12
02-11-2007, 07:56 AM
Couldn't you see the Royals making a move for a guy like BJ Upton here in the next year as well?

Upton only makes sense as a SS.

The Royals don't need a 3B or LF. That's a huge question mark...but I would vote no, as you want your best defenders up the middle, and Berroa doesn't exactly engender confidence. Think Jose Valentin, but worse, over the last 3 seasons, certainly more frustrating.

As noted, and I forgot Hudson (who beat us at least once and maybe twice down the stretch), DelaRosa, Wellemeyer, Elarton and Gobble are all available to be traded. Right there are five pitchers...2-3 of whom many scouts would pick as the White Sox 5th starter over Floyd for the 2007 season.

Based on talent alone, they should have gotten more for Affeldt, Burgos and Sisco.

Based on what I saw when he was with NY down the stretch, Dotel will struggle mightily as a full-time closer in the AL.

Optipessimism
02-11-2007, 01:19 PM
As screwed up as this sounds, they could be 2007's version of the 2006 Tigers(without the world series berth).

I think 2008 will be the first year that Royals fans can actually have a somewhat optimistic view of their chances. 2007 is going to be another 2006 in terms of player movement for them; they will be calling up their top prospects late and shipping out veterans pretty early, and I think the second half for them is probably going to be an audition for roles in the 2008 pen.

That said, IMO they will be a lot tougher to beat especially down the stretch.

Optipessimism
02-11-2007, 01:28 PM
The Royals have some key decisions to make.

One of them is what to do with Berroa. They keep waiting for him to return to his rookie stats and concentration/focus defensively. He's their version of Juan Uribe...without the power.

I think they need to package some of their spare parts together and get someone like Aybar from the Angels...they won't be able to get Wood.

Berroa has a horrible OBP and hasn't been a solid and predictable defender since his rookie year.

They also need to decide if it's best to trade Teahen or make him a LF/DH (can they get a decent pitcher in return, possibly)....whether Justin Gathright is an everyday major leaguer (doubtful) and whether Ryan Shealy is an everyday 1B (60-75% chance it's affirmative).

LaRue provides some nice insurance for Buck, who's in the same position as Berroa...not quite bad enough not to be the starter, but not creating any confidence he's the long-term answer there either.

The Royals have tried Andres Blanco at SS and he's our version of Pedro Gomez. All field, no hit.

I think they will get a new SS because they will have a solid enough lineup to be able to do without Berroa's extra offense. Aybar would make sense for them because they don't need an offensive stud, just someone who can field the baseball. I think Uribe is a bad comparison to Berroa as well. I think a better comparison would be Miguel Tejada without the power or ability to hit for high average and with Juan Uribe's work ethic.

Joey Gathright is a bench player and I don't know if anyone but Joey's own mama thinks he has a shot to play everyday. He does provide speed off the bench and can play the entire OF, so he will make for a nice 5th OF. He doesn't have the bat to even be considered a 4th OF IMO.

I highly doubt they trade Teahen but I'd love it of they did. He blossomed for the Royals last year as the next-generation Sox killer and I really don't like that.