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Soxboyrob
03-14-2002, 10:20 AM
Kenny has really shown what a true bumbling goof of a GM he is this spring. What in the name of torn labrums was Kenny doing thinking that our staff full of guys recovering from surgery would be able to carry this club this season? How do you let a team full of hitters like ours go into a season without a semblance of a pitching staff?

Who are our starters?
Buehrle, Ritchie, maybe Garland, maybe Glover and maybe Wright? Maybe Rauch? Are we counting on this staff to take us to the promised land or even drive past the promised land?

Who are our relievers?
Foulke, Howry, and a bunch of hurt guys throwing 85 mph fastballs?

Our division is ripe for the taking. Pitchers have been available via trade or via free agency during this offseason. Why are we able to see that our recovering pitchers won't be able to really make a major impact for a while, but the Jer and KW are "surprised" at the slow development of the recovering staff? Hello?! Did either of these guys look at what most pitchers historically do in the year following their surgeries?

Let's face it....we are the friggin' 2001 Texas Rangers. Some of these guys will slowly recover through the season and start looking like their old selves by the all-star break, but what will happen in the meantime? What if we're too far out, ala 2001, to make a late surge? I realize that there isn't a whole lot of hitting on the other teams in our division, but vs. our staff, the hitting might look a lot better. I'm losing confidence in this team in a hurry.

voodoochile
03-14-2002, 11:14 AM
Man, you should change your name to "chicken little". Can we at least wait until the regular season to see whether we have a problem before worrying about the sky falling?

Great post, made me chuckle...

Iwritecode
03-14-2002, 11:26 AM
I've just got one question about all the pitchers we have coming back from surgery. I keep hearing about how it takes a year for them to get back to form. Is that a year after the injury or after a year of actual throwing? Everyone keeps comparing them to Bobby Howry and how he wasn't throwing as well last year because of his surgery the previous year. IIRC, Bobby had his surgery late in the year or after the season was over. Most of the guys coming back this year were injured within the first two months of the season last year. That means it's already been almost a full year. Shouldn't that make a pretty large difference in how we should expect them to throw this year?

voodoochile
03-14-2002, 11:38 AM
Originally posted by Iwritecode
I've just got one question about all the pitchers we have coming back from surgery. I keep hearing about how it takes a year for them to get back to form. Is that a year after the injury or after a year of actual throwing? Everyone keeps comparing them to Bobby Howry and how he wasn't throwing as well last year because of his surgery the previous year. IIRC, Bobby had his surgery late in the year or after the season was over. Most of the guys coming back this year were injured within the first two months of the season last year. That means it's already been almost a full year. Shouldn't that make a pretty large difference in how we should expect them to throw this year?

Some "experts" claim that a pitcher doesn't fully recover from major surgery until a year after their "fully recovered" date. I think it depends on the pitcher. Some come back and are very effective immediately. Some it takes longer. With all of the pitchers we have supposedly on track (i.e. Parque's fastball is up 5 MPH since the beginning of ST) to start the season, things really aren't as bad as some of us think. The offense looks like it is going to have a great season right out of the gate also, so if the pitchers aren't quite up to form to start the year, it shouldn't be the end of the world.

Soxboyrob
03-14-2002, 11:59 AM
Originally posted by voodoochile
Man, you should change your name to "chicken little". Can we at least wait until the regular season to see whether we have a problem before worrying about the sky falling?

Great post, made me chuckle...

Ordinarily, I'm big believer in tossing spring training stats aside and saying "wait until it actually counts before writing this player or this team off." What's worrying me is not the fact that Ritchie had been getting hit hard or that Howry has been throwing white gasoline at an open fire and getting blasted. That kind of stuff just happens in spring training. What's scary is that Parque is throwing 84 mph and the organization actually had him pegged as a starter and that they actually thought Wunsch, Barcelo, Osuna, and whoever else would just assume their prior roles. What kind of purportedly talented baseball scout(KW) would have actually believed that this plan would fly?

Soxboyrob
03-14-2002, 12:15 PM
Originally posted by Iwritecode
I've just got one question about all the pitchers we have coming back from surgery. I keep hearing about how it takes a year for them to get back to form. Is that a year after the injury or after a year of actual throwing? Everyone keeps comparing them to Bobby Howry and how he wasn't throwing as well last year because of his surgery the previous year. IIRC, Bobby had his surgery late in the year or after the season was over. Most of the guys coming back this year were injured within the first two months of the season last year. That means it's already been almost a full year. Shouldn't that make a pretty large difference in how we should expect them to throw this year?

You make a pretty good point. My thinking on this is that the timing doesn't matter so much as the actual game experience. I've generally assumed that a player needed at least a full post surgery season under his belt before he can be considered "recovered." There is nothing that can simulate pitching in an actual game. Pitching off of a mound or in the bullpen or at a practice facility is great and all, but the pitchers actually push themselves to the limit in the game situations and that's when you really get on track to recovery. Baldwin was a bit of an exception to the rule last year. He had ok velocity from the start and got back to 90+ by the end of the year. He was obviously struggling a bit early on, but came on like the JB of any other year as the season progressed. I do believe JB's surgery was nothing more than the removal of some bone spurs and the cleaning up of some minor fraying, rather than the all-out repairs that guys like Parque needed.

Pete Ward
03-14-2002, 12:16 PM
"Man, you should change your name to "chicken little"

Someone talking about my Tag !!!

:smile:

TimChamp
03-14-2002, 12:19 PM
As CerebrusWG would say, "PLLLLLLLLLEEEEEEEEEESSSSSSSSSSSSAAAAAAAAAAACCCCCCC CCCCCC," I also say it's time...to Fire Nardi and see what Kerrigan can do over here with a different pair of Sox...if he's still available... :gulp:

voodoochile
03-14-2002, 12:22 PM
Originally posted by Pete Ward
"Man, you should change your name to "chicken little"

Someone talking about my Tag !!!

:smile:

Actually, no... I just saw your tag for the first time... But if it makes you feel better, I like your tag...

:D:

voodoochile
03-14-2002, 12:27 PM
Originally posted by Soxboyrob


Ordinarily, I'm big believer in tossing spring training stats aside and saying "wait until it actually counts before writing this player or this team off." What's worrying me is not the fact that Ritchie had been getting hit hard or that Howry has been throwing white gasoline at an open fire and getting blasted. That kind of stuff just happens in spring training. What's scary is that Parque is throwing 84 mph and the organization actually had him pegged as a starter and that they actually thought Wunsch, Barcelo, Osuna, and whoever else would just assume their prior roles. What kind of purportedly talented baseball scout(KW) would have actually believed that this plan would fly?

Time will tell who is right, but it isn't like these guys have no experience doing this. I have faith that they will find the answers, or trade for help if necessary. Right now, guys are still just getting in their work and getting their strength back. There is so much pitching depth in the system, that someone is bound to step up and fill a hole if necessary. Right now the only real glaring weakness is lefty reliever, but even there it is just too early to tell. Like I said earlier, Parque was throwing 79 when he first came to camp and is throwing 84 now - or so the reports have said. If he keeps that up, he will be around 90 early in the season. If his arm can't handle the strain of starting, he can always work out of the pen and guys like Glover and Rauch can fight it out for the fifth starters slot. I think Wright has pretty much nailed down his starters role, so that is one less thing to worry about...

cheeses_h_rice
03-14-2002, 12:41 PM
I haven't been following the recent ST games too closely, but I am a bit concerned that I never seem to see a "0" or a "1" or a "2" or a "3" or a "4" or even a "5" too often when the opponents' run totals are mentioned. Our pitching seems to be extremely, extremly brutal so far. Yeah, it's only spring training, but please try to tell me that there won't be at least a little carryover effect once April rolls around.

I certainly hope KW is exploring other options. Lordy lordy...

voodoochile
03-14-2002, 12:45 PM
Originally posted by cheeses_h_rice
I haven't been following the recent ST games too closely, but I am a bit concerned that I never seem to see a "0" or a "1" or a "2" or a "3" or a "4" or even a "5" too often when the opponents' run totals are mentioned. Our pitching seems to be extremely, extremly brutal so far. Yeah, it's only spring training, but please try to tell me that there won't be at least a little carryover effect once April rolls around.

I certainly hope KW is exploring other options. Lordy lordy...

We have been pitching a bunch of guys who will not make the 25-man roster. I think those totals will drop as ST rolls along...

Soxboyrob
03-14-2002, 12:49 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile


.......Right now, guys are still just getting in their work and getting their strength back. There is so much pitching depth in the system, that someone is bound to step up and fill a hole if necessary.........

Please keep telling me this over and over. I want so badly to believe it and have been overheard stating basically the same thing...that our system is so deep that odds are one of these guys will step up and actually perform to expectations. I thought we'd see some evidence of that this spring, but it hasn't yet happened. Praying for that guy to be Rauch.

bjmarte
03-14-2002, 01:09 PM
Originally posted by Soxboyrob


Please keep telling me this over and over. I want so badly to believe it and have been overheard stating basically the same thing...that our system is so deep that odds are one of these guys will step up and actually perform to expectations. I thought we'd see some evidence of that this spring, but it hasn't yet happened. Praying for that guy to be Rauch.

If they have Rauch pitching in the majors coming out of ST it is a sign that they are exceptionally desperate.

duke of dorwood
03-14-2002, 01:16 PM
My worry is the way the manager works the pitchers: some out too early, overworking a bullpen with recovering arms. This is where the 3 for one trade will hurt us. I am not concerned right now, but the habits of the manager will resurface and we will see the weaknesses then.

baggio202
03-14-2002, 02:18 PM
what bothers me is kenny williams over the last year has traded away a completely healthy pitching staff to make room for these injured guys coming back....does anyone else see a flaw in this...its like if you want to prolong you sox career..get injured...if you want to leave..stay healthy and perform well..then you get traded

duke of dorwood
03-14-2002, 02:44 PM
:reinsy

You have recited our mission statement

RichH55
03-14-2002, 03:12 PM
Originally posted by baggio202
what bothers me is kenny williams over the last year has traded away a completely healthy pitching staff to make room for these injured guys coming back....does anyone else see a flaw in this...its like if you want to prolong you sox career..get injured...if you want to leave..stay healthy and perform well..then you get traded


If you are healthy and give up 9 runs, does that somehow make it better? I forgot about the multiple Cy Youngs of JB, Fogg, Wells, and Lowe...my bad

RichH55
03-14-2002, 03:13 PM
Originally posted by RichH55



If you are healthy and give up 9 runs, does that somehow make it better? I forgot about the multiple Cy Youngs of JB, Fogg, Wells, and Lowe...my bad

Though to be fair, if Lidle was out there for Rowand KW should have jumped at that deal is a second

czalgosz
03-14-2002, 03:18 PM
Originally posted by RichH55


Though to be fair, if Lidle was out there for Rowand KW should have jumped at that deal is a second

I'm not sure on that one... what's Lidle's current contract situation? He would be a good risk if the Sox could get rid of him after the season ended, but if they are stuck with him for 3 or 4 seasons, it could end up hurting bad.