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sox230
01-29-2007, 08:32 AM
Pitching plans

Guillen said Jose Contreras would start the April 2 season opener against Cleveland, followed by Buehrle, Jon Garland and Javier Vazquez.

Anybody catch the tidbit in the article that centered around Dye that Contreras would be the opening day starter. I am a little upset, I like rewarding loyalty, and so I think it should be Buerhle. Being the opening day starter has absolutely no effect on the season--the rotation always changes for various reasons over the 162 game schedule--so basically it is just a personable honor. It sickens me how a great role model like Buerhle, and a man who fans love and said he wants to stay with the Sox (which not everybody does) has been treated like crap and this puts the icing on the cake on that front. I am not saying they will not re-sign him, and I don't think this has anything to do with his contract, but I believe this decision was in poor taste.

http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/cs-070128soxbits,1,6689583.story?coll=cs-home-headlines

oeo
01-29-2007, 08:43 AM
Anybody catch the tidbit in the article that centered around Dye that Contreras would be the opening day starter. I am a little upset, I like rewarding loyalty, and so I think it should be Buerhle. Being the opening day starter has absolutely no effect on the season--the rotation always changes for various reasons over the 162 game schedule--so basically it is just a personable honor. It sickens me how a great role model like Buerhle, and a man who fans love and said he wants to stay with the Sox (which not everybody does) has been treated like crap and this puts the icing on the cake on that front. I am not saying they will not re-sign him, and I don't think this has anything to do with his contract, but I believe this decision was in poor taste.

http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/cs-070128soxbits,1,6689583.story?coll=cs-home-headlines

Bah. I'm biased because Buehrle is my favorite player, but it should be his honor until he's no longer with the Sox (which is hopefully never).

D. TODD
01-29-2007, 08:47 AM
No big deal to me. Garland, Buehrle, or Contraras are all deserving. I just hope they all stay healthy in spring training and whoever gets the nod opening day, GO GET 'EM!

caulfield12
01-29-2007, 08:48 AM
I don't mind it. It's telling Jose he needs to pick it up and pitch like he's capable of (when healthy, 2nd half 05/first half 06), and it's challenging Buehrle as well.

Do you really think Buehrle's going to promise to come back if we name him the Opening Day starter? Maybe he's insulted, but I doubt Mark is that way. And I'm sure Jose will say that he doesn't deserve it either, coming off last year.

It's not unlike the whole Paulie/"captain" thing. Much ado about nothing.

veeter
01-29-2007, 09:05 AM
It should be Buehrle, flat out. Everything about him and Kenny, the last couple of days has been VERY positive, though. So, I'm encouraged.

IndianWhiteSox
01-29-2007, 09:17 AM
This has more to so with the fact that if Contreras can stay healthy for a full season and pitch like did in the post-season, he might be the best pitcher in baseball. I know about John Satan supposedly being the best pitcher in baseball and all but if Contreras has his health, then he will be the first pitcher to win 30 games in a season in the past 40 years! But I seriously, think it is realistic to think he can win the Cy Young and the pitching triple crown.
:D:

Edit: I knew that it was much more recent, I just couldn't find it but thanks.

chisoxmike
01-29-2007, 09:22 AM
It should be Buehrle, flat out.

Agreed, I don't understand the switch. I worry about Contreras this season.

oeo
01-29-2007, 09:24 AM
I don't mind it. It's telling Jose he needs to pick it up and pitch like he's capable of (when healthy, 2nd half 05/first half 06), and it's challenging Buehrle as well.

Do you really think Buehrle's going to promise to come back if we name him the Opening Day starter? Maybe he's insulted, but I doubt Mark is that way. And I'm sure Jose will say that he doesn't deserve it either, coming off last year.

It's not unlike the whole Paulie/"captain" thing. Much ado about nothing.

If whoever starts Opening Day makes you work harder, than we have some major problems with work ethic. This shouldn't change how any of the pitchers pitch.

It's called respect. It has nothing to do with him coming back next year, or not coming back. He should be the Opening Day starer as long as he is a White Sox.

oeo
01-29-2007, 09:27 AM
This has more to so with the fact that if Contreras can stay healthy for a full season and pitch like did in the post-season, he might be the best pitcher in baseball. I know about John Satan and all but if he has his health, then he will be the first pitcher to win 30 games in a season in the past 100 years! But I seriously, think it is realistic to think he can win the Cy Young and the pitching triple crown.
:D:

The Opening Day starter is not necessarily your best pitcher. Brad Radke would start every opening day for the Twins, even when Santana came along and was undoubtedly their best pitcher. It's more of a tradition...and it kind of pisses me off that Ozzie would break that tradition.

DumpJerry
01-29-2007, 09:27 AM
This has more to so with the fact that if Contreras can stay healthy for a full season and pitch like did in the post-season, he might be the best pitcher in baseball. I know about John Satan and all but if he has his health, then he will be the first pitcher to win 30 games in a season in the past 100 years! But I seriously, think it is realistic to think he can win the Cy Young and the pitching triple crown.
:D:
Are you referring to Johan Santana? If so, why do you wish for him to win 30 games? He's with the Twins. They are in our division. We play them 19 times. Also, there have been 12 seasons since 1907 where there was at least one 30 game winner-the most recent was Denny McLain in 1968. http://www.baseball-reference.com/leaders/W_leagues.shtml

IndianWhiteSox
01-29-2007, 09:27 AM
Wait a second?

I always thought that the best pitcher on the staff pitches on Opening Day and when Contreras is on his game, then he is the best pitcher on the staff and perhaps in baseball.

DumpJerry
01-29-2007, 09:29 AM
Wait a second?

I always thought that the best pitcher on the staff pitches on Opening Day and when Contreras is on his game, then he is the best pitcher on the staff and perhaps in baseball.
Now we know why Kenny passed you over for the job when he made the offer to Ozzie.:wink:

IndianWhiteSox
01-29-2007, 09:30 AM
Are you referring to Johan Santana? If so, why do you wish for him to win 30 games? He's with the Twins. They are in our division. We play them 19 times.

I was talking about Jose Contreras!
:mad:

IndianWhiteSox
01-29-2007, 09:32 AM
Now we know why Kenny passed you over for the job when he made the offer to Ozzie.:wink:

Good one!
:roflmao:


But seriously, you didn't think that Contreras was the best pitcher in baseball during the second half of 2005 or at the beginning of 2006?

DumpJerry
01-29-2007, 09:33 AM
I was talking about Jose Contreras!
:mad:
Don't get angry at me when your private nicknames are misunderstood.

IndianWhiteSox
01-29-2007, 09:34 AM
Don't get angry at me when your private nicknames are misunderstood.

Sorry about that. I'm just frustrated that I couldn't make it any clearer, but I'm not angry at you.
:redface:

spiffie
01-29-2007, 09:38 AM
I have no problem with this. It's the same reason we had Jose starting Game 1 in the playoffs of 2005. Yes, some teams will let the same guy start Opening Day every year. But to me you make a statement about who is going to be your Ace, your go-to guy when you make him the guy on the mound in that first game. And this year the Sox need Jose Contreras to put together a full season of work at the level we know he can pitch to. If Buehrle could accept being told he wasn't the #1 guy in 2005 for the playoffs, I can't picture this being a problem either.

IndianWhiteSox
01-29-2007, 09:40 AM
I have no problem with this. It's the same reason we had Jose starting Game 1 in the playoffs of 2005. Yes, some teams will let the same guy start Opening Day every year. But to me you make a statement about who is going to be your Ace, your go-to guy when you make him the guy on the mound in that first game. And this year the Sox need Jose Contreras to put together a full season of work at the level we know he can pitch to. If Buehrle could accept being told he wasn't the #1 guy in 2005 for the playoffs, I can't picture this being a problem either.

Well said!:gulp::thumbsup:

oeo
01-29-2007, 09:42 AM
I have no problem with this. It's the same reason we had Jose starting Game 1 in the playoffs of 2005. Yes, some teams will let the same guy start Opening Day every year. But to me you make a statement about who is going to be your Ace, your go-to guy when you make him the guy on the mound in that first game. And this year the Sox need Jose Contreras to put together a full season of work at the level we know he can pitch to. If Buehrle could accept being told he wasn't the #1 guy in 2005 for the playoffs, I can't picture this being a problem either.

If that was the case, then Garland should have been given the job. He's the guy that has given us the best chance to win, most recently. If Jose is healthy, he can be that guy, but I question whether he can stay healthy. He was dominant up until that DL stint early in the year, and since then, he has been on and off...mostly off.

So really, it's not the same thing as the playoffs. For the playoffs we picked the best guy...we do not know who the best guy is, at this point. Keep with tradition and go with Buehrle.

Not to mention he hurt himself at the end of 2006, while running. The guy is getting old...we do not know what we're going to get from him.

Mark my words...Mark Buehrle and Javier Vazquez will be our #1 and #2 to start the second half.

spiffie
01-29-2007, 09:45 AM
If that was the case, then Garland should have been given the job. He's the guy that has given us the best chance to win, most recently. If Jose is healthy, he can be that guy, but I question whether he can stay healthy. He was dominant up until that DL stint early in the year, and since then, he has been on and off...mostly off.

Not to mention he hurt himself at the end of 2006, while running. The guy is getting old...we do not know what we're going to get from him.
I would have been content with Garland as well. I feel though like the Sox as a team know that Jon is a wonderful pitcher, but that everyone knows that if the Sox are going to get back to the postseason that Jose has to be the #1 guy. They know that he is the only guy in that rotation who can be the shutdown Santana-like Ace for them. Garland would have been an acceptable choice, but I feel like this is sending a message to everyone, the Sox are saying to Jose that he is the one we are counting on, and the one we are expecting to be The Guy this year.

spiffie
01-29-2007, 09:47 AM
Mark my words...Mark Buehrle and Javier Vazquez will be our #1 and #2 to start the second half.
God I hope not. Because that means that Jose is definitely not pitching up to his potential, because when he is on his game, he is dominant in a way that neither of those guys can be. If Javy is the #2 pitcher going into the second half, I suspect that would make the Sox the #3 or #4 team in that division.

oeo
01-29-2007, 09:51 AM
God I hope not. Because that means that Jose is definitely not pitching up to his potential, because when he is on his game, he is dominant in a way that neither of those guys can be. If Javy is the #2 pitcher going into the second half, I suspect that would make the Sox the #3 or #4 team in that division.

Well, if you take the glass half empty approach, that's the way it looks. The way I look at it, Javy Vazquez can be just as dominant as Contreras if he could just screw his head on straight (a lot like what Contreras needed to do). Nearly every one of his starts, he was dominant, up until the 5th or 6th inning, when something got into his head that he couldn't do it. Whatever that is, he needs to forget it, and just get the job done. We should have a better bullpen, as well, so Ozzie doesn't have to be so cautious if Javy is freaking out. I think he'll be over that crap, though.

And it was really nothing against Contreras; just more of what I know we can get from Buehrle and Vazquez.

AuroraSoxFan
01-29-2007, 10:12 AM
Every starter will get equal amounts of opportunities to show what they can do (barring injuries of course). Starting on Opening Day is a perk for sure. But if any pitcher is unhappy that they didn't get the opening nod all they can do is go out on their days and shut people down and let Ozzie (and everyone else) see why it SHOULD have been him. They should view it as a challenge more than a personal shot at them if they are not happy with it.

I don't know any of the 4 set starters but none seem to be the bitter/jealous type. I'm sure fans and media will make much more out of it than any of those 4 guys.

BainesHOF
01-29-2007, 10:31 AM
Well, if you take the glass half empty approach, that's the way it looks. The way I look at it, Javy Vazquez can be just as dominant as Contreras if he could just screw his head on straight (a lot like what Contreras needed to do). Nearly every one of his starts, he was dominant, up until the 5th or 6th inning, when something got into his head that he couldn't do it. Whatever that is, he needs to forget it, and just get the job done.

You're dreaming. Vazquez has had great stuff and been on good teams his whole career yet he's only a .500 pitcher. He was on a major roll stuff-wise late in 2006 yet he still had trouble winning games. What makes you think his mental makeup is going to change at this stage of his life? He is what he is - an underachiever who is serviceable at the back end of a rotation.

oeo
01-29-2007, 10:53 AM
You're dreaming. Vazquez has had great stuff and been on good teams his whole career yet he's only a .500 pitcher. He was on a major roll stuff-wise late in 2006 yet he still had trouble winning games. What makes you think his mental makeup is going to change at this stage of his life? He is what he is - an underachiever who is serviceable at the back end of a rotation.

Maybe I am dreaming...we'll see, I think he can do it.

102605
01-29-2007, 10:54 AM
You're dreaming. Vazquez has had great stuff and been on good teams his whole career yet he's only a .500 pitcher. He was on a major roll stuff-wise late in 2006 yet he still had trouble winning games. What makes you think his mental makeup is going to change at this stage of his life? He is what he is - an underachiever who is serviceable at the back end of a rotation.

Did you not see Jose Contreras overcome a similiar circumstance in his career 2 years ago? :?:

FedEx227
01-29-2007, 11:12 AM
Did you not see Jose Contreras overcome a similiar circumstance in his career 2 years ago? :?:

They are very different.

Contreras had mechanical problems more so then mental. He was tipping all of his pitches making it quite easy to read what was coming. If you watch him in his Yankees days you'll see a completely different pitcher then we have today. The finger movement he does now before every pitch was not there, instead he would do that when he was throwing the forkball, thus it wasn't too hard to guess the forkball was coming.

So they are pretty different, in my mind completely different. Contreras had physical problems more so then mental. Unfortunately, in most cases the mental is harder to fix.

asboog
01-29-2007, 11:50 AM
I guess Contreras is starting the opener this year. Why change from Buerhle? Link (http://www.rotoworld.com/content/playerpages/player_main.aspx?sport=MLB&id=3582)

I want Mags back
01-29-2007, 11:57 AM
:whocares

its just 1 game of 162. Buehrle will still get 33 starts. Jose should have been honored with the opener last season. time for his due

champagne030
01-29-2007, 12:34 PM
God I hope not. Because that means that Jose is definitely not pitching up to his potential, because when he is on his game, he is dominant in a way that neither of those guys can be. If Javy is the #2 pitcher going into the second half, I suspect that would make the Sox the #3 or #4 team in that division.

It could mean that Jose pitched in the all-star game.

mccoydp
01-29-2007, 12:49 PM
It's a shame for Mark, but I don't care too much; I just want wins!

oeo
01-29-2007, 12:51 PM
They are very different.

Contreras had mechanical problems more so then mental. He was tipping all of his pitches making it quite easy to read what was coming. If you watch him in his Yankees days you'll see a completely different pitcher then we have today. The finger movement he does now before every pitch was not there, instead he would do that when he was throwing the forkball, thus it wasn't too hard to guess the forkball was coming.

So they are pretty different, in my mind completely different. Contreras had physical problems more so then mental. Unfortunately, in most cases the mental is harder to fix.

Contreras had more problems than just tipping his pitches. Why do you think it took so long for him to finally become successful? He got whatever was wrong in his head, straightened out. Whether that was confidence, his family coming to America, whatever...he had more issues than just physical ones.

And Coop has made changes with Vazquez. Right now, it's a mental thing, and IMO, he's in the same situation that Contreras was in going into 2005. They're different in some ways, but very similar in others.

viagracat
01-29-2007, 01:25 PM
It should be Buehrle, flat out. Everything about him and Kenny, the last couple of days has been VERY positive, though. So, I'm encouraged.

Yeah, supposedly everything is copasetic between Buehrle and KW, so I doubt it was anything more than a baseball decision.

I too would prefer to see Burls, but c'est la vie.

ewokpelts
01-29-2007, 01:26 PM
Anybody catch the tidbit in the article that centered around Dye that Contreras would be the opening day starter. I am a little upset, I like rewarding loyalty, and so I think it should be Buerhle. Being the opening day starter has absolutely no effect on the season--the rotation always changes for various reasons over the 162 game schedule--so basically it is just a personable honor. It sickens me how a great role model like Buerhle, and a man who fans love and said he wants to stay with the Sox (which not everybody does) has been treated like crap and this puts the icing on the cake on that front. I am not saying they will not re-sign him, and I don't think this has anything to do with his contract, but I believe this decision was in poor taste.

http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/cs-070128soxbits,1,6689583.story?coll=cs-home-headlinesozzie said this would happen if the season started TODAY......a lot can happn until april 2

as for contreras.....he's what? 40? 50? at least we know how old burls is

HotelWhiteSox
01-29-2007, 02:21 PM
I guess it depends on the person. I would personally do it as a reward for the best pitcher of the year before, so I would've probably done Contreras last year and Garland this year (also loyal). I like Jose, but he started to worry me a little last year. In the end it doesn't mean much, but yeah, I see it as looked at the manager naming his ace.

areilly
01-29-2007, 04:29 PM
I don't consider any of the Sox to be a true ace right now. If the best pitcher really was starting on Opening Day, we'd all be kicking off the 2007 season watching Bobby Jenks strike out the side in the top of the 1st inning.

sox1970
01-29-2007, 04:42 PM
I'm a traditionalist. I'd go with Buehrle, just like the Twins went with Radke.

Jerome
01-29-2007, 05:29 PM
As long as Grossman throws out the ceremonial first pitch :smile:

drewcifer
01-29-2007, 05:33 PM
I'm down with Contreras getting the opening day start.

He has WAY better #s vs. Cleveland than Buehrle anyway, even if he's had only 1/2 the amount of work....

Contreras 04-06 (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/splits?statsId=7043&type=pitching3&three=1)
Buehrle 04-06 (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/splits?statsId=6525&type=pitching3&three=1)

Are the Jnjians starting Sabathia again?

thomas35forever
01-29-2007, 06:30 PM
I have faith in Contreras. It'll just be weird not seeing Mark at the top of the rotation.

oeo
01-29-2007, 06:40 PM
I'm down with Contreras getting the opening day start.

He has WAY better #s vs. Cleveland than Buehrle anyway, even if he's had only 1/2 the amount of work....

Contreras 04-06 (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/splits?statsId=7043&type=pitching3&three=1)
Buehrle 04-06 (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/splits?statsId=6525&type=pitching3&three=1)

Are the Jnjians starting Sabathia again?

I'm sure they will...who else? Paul Byrd?

I wonder if he comes in at 500 pounds again.

DickAllen72
01-29-2007, 07:00 PM
Wait a second?

I always thought that the best pitcher on the staff pitches on Opening Day and when Contreras is on his game, then he is the best pitcher on the staff and perhaps in baseball.

You are correct, Sir!

TheOldRoman
01-29-2007, 08:22 PM
You're dreaming. Vazquez has had great stuff and been on good teams his whole career yet he's only a .500 pitcher. He was on a major roll stuff-wise late in 2006 yet he still had trouble winning games. What makes you think his mental makeup is going to change at this stage of his life? He is what he is - an underachiever who is serviceable at the back end of a rotation.
Ah, yes. I remember his time on those powerhouse Expos teams. I'm suprised they didn't win a pennant or six.

Brian26
01-29-2007, 10:36 PM
I'm down with Contreras getting the opening day start.

He has WAY better #s vs. Cleveland than Buehrle anyway, even if he's had only 1/2 the amount of work....


:?: So are you saying Buehrle should sit for the entire series?

It's a three game series. Since Buehrle will most likely pitch against them in one of the three games, why can't he pitch Opening Day?

caulfield12
01-30-2007, 04:05 AM
Maybe it's because he always seems to lose to Sabathia recently.

Mix it up, let him go against Lee or Westbrook. By the way, White Sox, could we not let Westbrook beat us like a dirty blanket this year?

Murphy10
01-30-2007, 07:35 AM
As much as i would love to see Mark taking the bump for a 2 hour game, I'll be perfectly fine with Jose out there. I think we may also have a better shot at the W with Jose on the mound

Save McCuddy's
01-30-2007, 07:49 AM
If the move does anything to ressurect the Contreras we saw in the second half of '05 I'm all for it.

drewcifer
01-30-2007, 11:25 AM
:?: So are you saying Buehrle should sit for the entire series?

It's a three game series. Since Buehrle will most likely pitch against them in one of the three games, why can't he pitch Opening Day?

That was a silly conclusion to come to... Of course I'm not suggesting he sit out the series!

Contreras matches up better against Sabathia... We all want to start off the season and series with a W. All I'm saying is that when you put away the sentimentality and look at the matchup, Jose is a good choice (FOR THE OPENING GAME).