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View Full Version : Sox site article: Buehrle, Crede, others asked about their future


HotelWhiteSox
01-27-2007, 12:50 AM
http://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/news/article.jsp?ymd=20070127&content_id=1787579&vkey=news_cws&fext=.jsp&c_id=cws

"I want to be back, but I've seen direct quotes from Kenny saying that Mark Buehrle won't be in a White Sox uniform in 2008," Buehrle said. "I'm just kind of going off what he said.


"Obviously, I know if I am going to stay here, it's going to have to be [taking] a discount. Like Kenny said, he's got the quote out there saying I won't be here, so I only know what kind of discount. ... I could play for free and he said I won't be here, so I don't know."


:(:

HotelWhiteSox
01-27-2007, 12:58 AM
Tribune version, also has more quotes from Kenny, and talks about the Cardinals offseason thing http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/cs-070126sox,1,6213557.story?coll=cs-whitesox-headlines

Lip Man 1
01-27-2007, 01:35 AM
I found this quote 'interesting':

"Assessing what our focus is and what our direction is, is there something there that's a realistic opportunity in retaining Buehrle? Only he knows the answer to that. Have we explored the possibility? Yes. Am I optimistic? Not at all. Not at all." --Kenny Williams to Scott Merkin.

Lip

caulfield12
01-27-2007, 04:50 AM
http://www.suntimes.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/231851,CST-SPT-sox27.article

Even better, more thorough explanation of the Buehrle situation. Looks like a one in six shot, at best, of keeping him at this point.

I guess we're going to be lucky to get either Crede or Dye.


During the question-and-answer period of a town-hall-style meeting, Sox GM Ken Williams was asked to confirm comments he made last season that it was unlikely third baseman Joe Crede would be signed to a long-term deal. ''I did and I don't,'' Williams responded to a fan. ''I don't see it. Some obvious reasons -- No. 1, [Crede] has representation that I get along with but that I have very different fundamentals when it comes to the market.'' (www.suntimes.com (http://www.suntimes.com))

So much for that!

Williams said Juan Uribe's legal problems in his native Dominican Republic are all but cleared up.

The shortstop, along with his brother Elpidio and a family friend, were questioned in October after the shooting of two men, including a Dominican farmer, Antonio Gonzalez Perez.
Williams said he was told Perez did not appear in court Thursday, however, and Williams now expects Uribe to be cleared and ready for the start of spring camp. jcowley@suntimes.com (jcowley@suntimes.com)

And Uribe's problems seem to be clearing, and OG/KW reiterated that he is was, and continues to be, the starting SS.

Domeshot17
01-27-2007, 04:53 AM
Im all for not overpaying for crap free agents, but man, penny pinching your guys, especially the few home grown ones you have, pisses me off to no end.

caulfield12
01-27-2007, 05:00 AM
This one has some really good stuff too on Buehrle, different quotes.

I love how they say KW is ENRAGED and MB is CALM about it. Funny how they characterize KW in the Chicago media in his reactions. Enraged is quite a strong word that I'm sure Kenny would vehemently disagree with.

http://www.dailyherald.com/sports/story.asp?id=274199

dcb56
01-27-2007, 06:29 AM
"With the market as it is, I don't anticipate making that overture again," he said.

Williams added later, "I'd rather take a [young] guy with a high ceiling than take a guy who I had to overpay to make it look like I'm trying."


Well holy hell, Kenny, there's a big difference between letting an aging starter go who is arguably on the downside of his career for young talent in return and refusing to sign a homegrown stud who is in his prime simply becuase you refuse to pay what the rest of the market is willing bear.


"[If] you don't balance yourself out, there's a period of time you go down a turn to 90-plus losses rather than 90-plus wins," Williams said.

Indeed, a team can win with only so many speedsters with big hearts (aka "Grinders") and young kids, if you're going to let all of your best players becuase you refuse to pony up the cash you're going to end up with a 90 loss team. With the already high ticket prices your boss charges coupled with the 10-20% price increase ALL season ticket holders saw over the offseason, going on the cheap will be a surefire way to piss of a lot of people and quickly return to the days of mediocrity with 22,000 butts in the stands.

Im all for not overpaying for crap free agents, but man, penny pinching your guys, especially the few home grown ones you have, pisses me off to no end.

To augment this discussion, did anyone happen to catch JR on North's show Thursday morning? He was only on for about five minutes and spent the majority of his time talking about the Bulls, but the discussion did turn to the White Sox and he was asked what is going to happen with guys like Buehrle and he essentially said (I don't have the exact quote and I wish I could find it) that they aren't going to stop their free agents from testing the market, and given the salaries and years (he made a big emphasis on the number of years players, especially pitchers, have been getting), they think it will be incredibly difficult to sign guys like Buehrle, and that's one of the reasons why they've been stocking up on young talent this offseason.

The writing is on the wall folks, given what has been said I will be incredibly surprised if we keep any of our guys (Crede, Dye, Buehrle) who will be free agents after this season which is a crying shame becuase it basically means we're destined for rebuilding mode despite an all time high thanks to the World Championship in both popularity and ticket prices. Even after 2005 I guess this team is still in ****ing Minnesota Twins mode in that it thinks it's a small market team that can't hold on to its homegrown talent.

caulfield12
01-27-2007, 06:35 AM
Well holy hell, Kenny, there's a big difference between letting an aging starter go who is arguably on the downside of his career for young talent in return and refusing to sign a homegrown stud who is in his prime simply becuase you refuse to pay what the rest of the market is willing bear.



Indeed, a team can win with only so many speedsters with big hearts (aka "Grinders") and young kids, if you're going to let all of your best players becuase you refuse to pony up the cash you're going to end up with a 90 loss team. With the already high ticket prices your boss charges coupled with the 10-20% price increase ALL season ticket holders saw over the offseason, going on the cheap will be a surefire way to piss of a lot of people and quickly return to the days of mediocrity with 22,000 butts in the stands.



To augment this discussion, did anyone happen to catch JR on North's show Thursday morning? He was only on for about five minutes and spent the majority of his time talking about the Bulls, but the discussion did turn to the White Sox and he was asked what is going to happen with guys like Buehrle and he essentially said (I don't have the exact quote and I wish I could find it) that they aren't going to stop their free agents from testing the market, and given the salaries and years (he made a big emphasis on the number of years players, especially pitchers, have been getting), they think it will be incredibly difficult to sign guys like Buehrle, and that's one of the reasons why they've been stocking up on young talent this offseason.

The writing is on the wall folks, given what has been said I will be incredibly surprised if we keep any of our guys (Crede, Dye, Buehrle) who will be free agents after this season which is a crying shame becuase it basically means we're destined for rebuilding mode despite an all time high thanks to the World Championship in both popularity and ticket prices. Even after 2005 I guess this team is still in ****ing Minnesota Twins mode in that it thinks it's a small market team that can't hold on to its homegrown talent.

Even the Twins extended Liriano (bargain of the century) to the 7th year of his career.

Buehrle and Dye are less replaceable than Crede. If we lose all three, we're going to miss the playoffs for 2 years unless two of the three (Danks, Floyd and Gio) become 1-3 type of starters, not 4/5 like Broadway, Haeger and McCullogh.

IndianWhiteSox
01-27-2007, 07:12 AM
This is just nuts and I thought that Reinsdorf was past this crap but I guess not. He wants to pay 11m next year for KIRK HINRICH and ANOTHER 15.5MILL FOR BEN WALLACE but he wont shell out the money to extend the new faces of the franchise Buehrle, Crede, and Dye. For someone who's favorite sport is baseball, he's definitely not showing it.

:angry::angry::angry::angry::(::(::(::(::o:

UserNameBlank
01-27-2007, 07:17 AM
Is it ever possible for the Sox to lose a player without going through this period of bashing each other? It looks like that is already starting to happen in Buehrle's case. Very sad.

If the Sox are going to offer any pitcher a 5 year contract Mark is the guy. 6 or 7 years is another deal altogether, but if the Sox were to offer five years at a decent price (at least in todays market) of up to 14million per year or so, I'd be fine with the whole thing. But no numbers have come out and as far apart as both sides sound, either Mark is looking for Zito money and Zito years or KW is seriously lowballing his ace.

The Crede and Dye situations are differnet IMO because both are coming off of the best years of their careers. It makes sense for KW to wait out the '07 season before offering either player lucrative extensions, especially in Dye's case with Ichiro and Andruw Jones on the market next year, but the Buehrle thing scares me. I don't mind the Sox looking to get younger in some areas, but letting Mark go without even making a respectable offer is a clear sign of hitting the basement for Sox fans.

One more thing, too: KW needs some "don't talk **** about your players" training. It sounds like he's already gotten to Mark and I don't want to have to go through the Frank/Maggs thing again. I love KW and still think he's a black belt Kung Fu master, but man, it is like sometimes he is just to shrewd in his discipline.

UserNameBlank
01-27-2007, 07:19 AM
This is just nuts and I thought that Reinsdorf was past this crap but I guess not. He wants to pay 11m next year for KIRK HINRICH and ANOTHER 15.5MILL FOR BEN WALLACE but he wont shell out the money to extend the new faces of the franchise Buehrle, Crede, and Dye. For someone who's favorite sport is baseball, he's definitely not showing it.

:angry::angry::angry::angry::(::(::(::(::o:

From the way KW was speaking, I think it has a lot more to do with KW than JR. But then again as I said in my last post, we haven't seen any figures so who knows. I do think that JR is still willing to pay if a good deal is on the table AND the Sox have the pieces to seriously contend.

Madvora
01-27-2007, 07:24 AM
"All I try to do is answer questions as honestly and as openly as possible," added Williams before concluding his thought and telling reporters to play the tape for Buehrle.This is what bothered me. Are these guys at a point where they can't even talk face to face anymore? This doesn't seem like a KW thing at all. This makes it appears as if they have a bad relationship.

gr8mexico
01-27-2007, 07:41 AM
This is just nuts and I thought that Reinsdorf was past this crap but I guess not. He wants to pay 11m next year for KIRK HINRICH and ANOTHER 15.5MILL FOR BEN WALLACE but he wont shell out the money to extend the new faces of the franchise Buehrle, Crede, and Dye. For someone who's favorite sport is baseball, he's definitely not showing it.

:angry::angry::angry::angry::(::(::(::(::o:
You cant be serious Mark is a good pitcher but never will be a great one. The Market will be filled with better and younger pitchers then Mark next year. People should stop thinking with there hearts and more with there brain. The 2008 class is full of great players I would rather have like Michael Young, Ichiro, Andruw Jones, Carlos Zambrano and Aaron Rowand.

johnny bench
01-27-2007, 07:41 AM
Like, wow. Major feel bad.

What positive spin can we put on this one? MB outperforms in a 2007 money drive in order to maximize his free agent value? Hardly makes me feel better.

Seems to me like the White Sox team of the future is pitchers with less than 5 years experience and position players that have been previously injured.

Lip was right. The Garcia trade was a major course correction. This fiasco is a logical extension.

IndianWhiteSox
01-27-2007, 08:01 AM
You cant be serious Mark is a good pitcher but never will be a great one. The Market will be filled with better and younger pitchers then Mark next year. People should stop thinking with there hearts and more with there brain. The 2008 class is full of great players I would rather have like Michael Young, Ichiro, Andruw Jones, Carlos Zambrano and Aaron Rowand.

You would rather have Zambozo who has an ERA in interleague play as high as Freedy Garcia during off days than a guy who could win about 250 games in Mark Buehrle? That's just insane!

FoulkeFan
01-27-2007, 08:04 AM
The Market will be filled with better and younger pitchers then Mark next year.

Really? Who are these pitchers and why would they take less money than MB would?

:rolleyes:

caulfield12
01-27-2007, 08:06 AM
You really believe this is KW talking and not JR?

Seriously, would you give Mark Buehrle $100 million for 6 years right now? Would you even given him anything longer than 3 years and more than $15 million per season? After '06?

Didn't we go through this already with losing Frank, Valentin, Durham, Ventura, Maggs and C-Lee? White Sox fans identify more with winning teams than individual players. The days of Fox and Aparicio are gone. I support what KW is doing, it's logical.

Now if Buehrle has a great season, KW's done with him. If he doesn't, it would be interesting to know the real gap in terms of years and numbers vis a vis the signing team. It's always this big PR game with the Sox to show that they TRIED to sign a player (like with Magglio especially) when they actually have no desire whatsover to keep him.

KW, just say we don't feel Magglio is worth superstar money, his production can be replaced with a Dye or similar FA. Don't PRETEND you wanted to keep him around, everyone can see right through that tactic.

It's easy to wonder if we're being like the Cubs now, more concerned with profit margin than winning. Look at the money, though, STL hasn't spent on keeping their championship team together. I think Jocketty also realizes the need to go with Wainright, Reyes and Blake Hawksworth instead of spending $30 million on Suppan, Weaver and Marquis.

Now that's logical to me. But the pitchers we are dealing are much more talented than those three, although Suppan was obviously solid with the Cards.

IndianWhiteSox
01-27-2007, 08:07 AM
From the way KW was speaking, I think it has a lot more to do with KW than JR. But then again as I said in my last post, we haven't seen any figures so who knows. I do think that JR is still willing to pay if a good deal is on the table AND the Sox have the pieces to seriously contend.

Then when will JR clamp down so to speak and say, KW cut the crap! This is looking to be another Krause episode without the six in eight rings. I mean Magglio and Frank were one thing but this is just nuts. KW IS A GREAT GM AND MAYBE ONE OF THE GREATEST IN THE HISTORY OF THE WHITE SOX! But he's starting to lose his grip on reality thinking he can make a diamond out of every lump of dust.:angry:

caulfield12
01-27-2007, 08:14 AM
Really? Who are these pitchers and why would they take less money than MB would?

:rolleyes:

1. John Smoltz (41)
2. Michael Young (31)
3. Carlos Zambrano (27)
4. Joe Nathan (33)
5. Mariano Rivera (38)
6. Chris Carpenter (33) extension
7. Jorge Posada (36)
8. Curt Schilling (41)
9. Bobby Abreu (34)
10. Ichiro Suzuki (34)
11. Andruw Jones (31)
12. Carlos Guillen (32)
13. Jeff Kent (40)
14. Mike Lowell (34)
15. Vernon Wells (29) extension
16. Jason Jennings (29)
17. Jake Westbrook (30)
18. Ivan Rodriguez (36)
19. Trevor Hoffman (40)
20. Freddy Garcia (32)
21. Kenny Rogers (43)
22. Torii Hunter (32)
23. Jason Isringhausen (35)
24. Omar Vizquel (41)
25. Marcus Giles (30)
26. Eric Byrnes (32)
27. Paul Lo Duca (36)
28. Bob Wickman (39)
29. Corey Patterson (28)
30. Adam Dunn (28)
31. Randy Johnson (44)
32. Scott Linebrink (31)
33. Doug Davis (32)
34. Michael Barrett (31)
35. Milton Bradley (30)
36. Jon Lieber (38)
37. David Eckstein (33)
38. Aaron Rowand (30)
39. Juan Uribe (29)
40. Bartolo Colon (35)

Interesting to see 38-40. The rankings are crap, but there is no pitching after Zambrano, who probably won't be available, and certainly not to us.

Jennings and Westbrook are not better than Buehrle. Maybe KW will bring Colon back? This list is crap. No other options than bundling young pitching and prospects for D. Willis, or PRAYING Danks/Gio/Floyd can become dependable starters to go with Garland and Contreras.

Can anyone else see KW taking a flyer on Milton Bradley to replace Dye? For some scary reason, I can.

itsnotrequired
01-27-2007, 08:16 AM
This is just nuts and I thought that Reinsdorf was past this crap but I guess not. He wants to pay 11m next year for KIRK HINRICH and ANOTHER 15.5MILL FOR BEN WALLACE but he wont shell out the money to extend the new faces of the franchise Buehrle, Crede, and Dye. For someone who's favorite sport is baseball, he's definitely not showing it.

:angry::angry::angry::angry::(::(::(::(::o:

Then when will JR clamp down so to speak and say, KW cut the crap! This is looking to be another Krause episode without the six in eight rings. I mean Magglio and Frank were one thing but this is just nuts. KW IS A GREAT GM AND MAYBE ONE OF THE GREATEST IN THE HISTORY OF THE WHITE SOX! But he's starting to lose his grip on reality thinking he can make a diamond out of every lump of dust.:angry:

Why do you keep comparing the Sox situation to the Bulls situation?

IndianWhiteSox
01-27-2007, 08:24 AM
Why do you keep comparing the Sox situation to the Bulls situation?

I don't know.....maybe its because its the same ownership group of the teams and this is really become too similar and if you don't notice it then I don't know what to say.:o::(:

itsnotrequired
01-27-2007, 08:32 AM
I don't know.....maybe its because its the same ownership group of the teams and this is really become too similar and if you don't notice it then I don't know what to say.:o::(:

So JR is overpaying Bulls players and not willing to offer similar deals to Sox players? The markets of the two sports are completely different and really shouldn't be compared.

IndianWhiteSox
01-27-2007, 08:35 AM
So JR is overpaying Bulls players and not willing to offer similar deals to Sox players? The markets of the two sports are completely different and really shouldn't be compared.

Really? How exactly, because I see him more worried about keeping the core of the Bulls together but not the White Sox. Unless you can explain to me the difference?

IndianWhiteSox
01-27-2007, 08:38 AM
You really believe this is KW talking and not JR?

Seriously, would you give Mark Buehrle $100 million for 6 years right now? Would you even given him anything longer than 3 years and more than $15 million per season? After '06?

Didn't we go through this already with losing Frank, Valentin, Durham, Ventura, Maggs and C-Lee? White Sox fans identify more with winning teams than individual players. The days of Fox and Aparicio are gone. I support what KW is doing, it's logical.

Now if Buehrle has a great season, KW's done with him. If he doesn't, it would be interesting to know the real gap in terms of years and numbers vis a vis the signing team. It's always this big PR game with the Sox to show that they TRIED to sign a player (like with Magglio especially) when they actually have no desire whatsover to keep him.

KW, just say we don't feel Magglio is worth superstar money, his production can be replaced with a Dye or similar FA. Don't PRETEND you wanted to keep him around, everyone can see right through that tactic.

It's easy to wonder if we're being like the Cubs now, more concerned with profit margin than winning. Look at the money, though, STL hasn't spent on keeping their championship team together. I think Jocketty also realizes the need to go with Wainright, Reyes and Blake Hawksworth instead of spending $30 million on Suppan, Weaver and Marquis.

Now that's logical to me. But the pitchers we are dealing are much more talented than those three, although Suppan was obviously solid with the Cards.

Didn't Konerko take a 5-year/60 million dollar deal to stay with the White Sox?

caulfield12
01-27-2007, 08:40 AM
Yes, he "lost" or left on the table an additional $5 million on the contract, from the Angels and Orioles.

This was 12 months ago, and the market in completely different. Do you really think KW is going offer Buerhle $95 million for 6 years? Or even $90 million?

hose
01-27-2007, 08:40 AM
I have no problem with what Kenny is doing with the pitching staff. A matter of fact I love the Sox bullpen and I think it will be the team's strength.

If Burl's has a great season and ends up staying with the Sox great, if he pitches like last year then adios. With the pitching Kenny has traded for and drafted I think he will be able to replace the current starters as their careers
end with the Sox.

On one hand I hate to see my favorite players move on to other teams but as long as the team improves I understand the moves have to be made.

The Sox are in a position to win now and are still building for the near future. If Kenny was in fear of losing his job he would be making ridiculous free agent signings .

It's nice to see that Kenny has a plan and I think it will work out.

Beer Can Chicken
01-27-2007, 08:41 AM
I don't think this was posted. It has more quotes from Buehrle.

http://www.suntimes.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/231851,CST-SPT-sox27.article

IndianWhiteSox
01-27-2007, 08:43 AM
Can anyone else see KW taking a flyer on Milton Bradley to replace Dye? For some scary reason, I can.

He has so many similarities with JD... they were injury prone in Oakland, they would come to Chicago as bargain basement free agents, and win World Series MVP with the White Sox.

hose
01-27-2007, 08:50 AM
Really? How exactly, because I see him more worried about keeping the core of the Bulls together but not the White Sox. Unless you can explain to me the difference?

Here are just a few differences:
Sox have minor league players under contract.
40 man roster going into ST.
25 during the regular season.

IndianWhiteSox
01-27-2007, 08:50 AM
Yes, he "lost" or left on the table an additional $5 million on the contract, from the Angels and Orioles.

This was 12 months ago, and the market in completely different. Do you really think KW is going offer Buerhle $95 million for 6 years? Or even $90 million?

No but I think they could offer him something like Oswalt's deal which was about a 5year/75million dollar deal with like a 2 million dollar buyout before the 5th year.

hose
01-27-2007, 08:53 AM
No but I think they could offer him something like Oswalt's deal which was about a 5year/75million dollar deal with like a 2 million dollar buyout before the 5th year.

If Burles pitches like he did in the second half of last year I don't think he is worth Ted Lilly money

itsnotrequired
01-27-2007, 08:54 AM
Really? How exactly, because I see him more worried about keeping the core of the Bulls together but not the White Sox. Unless you can explain to me the difference?

It is far easier to keep a core of a basketball team together than the core of a baseball team. The salaries of Hinrich and Wallace account for about 45% of the Bulls' total payroll. So 40% of the starting positions are using up 45% of the payroll. Compare that to the top 5 paid guys on the Sox (Thome, Konerko, Vazquez and Garland). These 5 guys represent about 45% of the "starters" and they are eating up nearly 50% of the payroll.

The fact of the matter is the Sox are getting amazing dollar-for-production value out of guys like Dye and Buehrle. These guys will get huge money on the open market. Can the same be said of players like Hinrich and Wallace? No. They are getting paid roughly their market value. The money simply isn't there to offer that huge contract to guys like Dye and Buehrle, especially Buehrle.

caulfield12
01-27-2007, 08:55 AM
Nobody cares about Oswalt's deal.

Zito's deal is now the Gold Standard. When you give a #3 starter that money, what do you think 1 and 2 starters expect? And Zambrano will be setting the market for the next big contract.

itsnotrequired
01-27-2007, 08:57 AM
No but I think they could offer him something like Oswalt's deal which was about a 5year/75million dollar deal with like a 2 million dollar buyout before the 5th year.

Sure, they could offer something like this but there are teams out there that will offer more. Something like a 6 year/$100 million offer is not out of the question, especially if Buehrle returns to form. Buehrle may take a home town discount but to the tune of $25 million? I seriously doubt it and the union wouldn't be fans of the move either.

IndianWhiteSox
01-27-2007, 08:58 AM
It is far easier to keep a core of a basketball team together than the core of a baseball team. The salaries of Hinrich and Wallace account for about 45% of the Bulls' total payroll. So 40% of the starting positions are using up 45% of the payroll. Compare that to the top 5 paid guys on the Sox (Thome, Konerko, Vazquez and Garland). These 5 guys represent about 45% of the "starters" and they are eating up nearly 50% of the payroll.

The fact of the matter is the Sox are getting amazing dollar-for-production value out of guys like Dye and Buehrle. These guys will get huge money on the open market. Can the same be said of players like Hinrich and Wallace? No. They are getting paid roughly their market value. The money simply isn't there to offer that huge contract to guys like Dye and Buehrle, especially Buehrle.

But where's the money coming from? Gee I wonder? Obviously, if Reinsdorf and co. are serious about baseball being their favorite sport, then they're going to have to realize that they should start paying Mark and JD what you're paying Kirk and Ben or cut down a little bit from the baseketball side of things unless that was all BS they were spewing out and then I don't what to say after that.

IndianWhiteSox
01-27-2007, 09:03 AM
Nobody cares about Oswalt's deal.

Zito's deal is now the Gold Standard. When you give a #3 starter that money, what do you think 1 and 2 starters expect? And Zambrano will be setting the market for the next big contract.

first thing's first, the only reason why we don't think of him as an ace here, is because of SOX history getting dominant performances from Pirece, Wood, McDowell, Contreras, Buehrle and etc. But to most of baseball who is pitching deprived, they would consider Zito to be a top of the rotation guy.

How do you know that was the market being set and not a few teams that were just being stupid like the Cubs(Lilly,Marquis,Soriano,etc), Royals(Gil Mess), Giants(Barry Zito and Bonds), Dodgers(Schmidt), and etc.

Everyone said the same thing in 2000 but it didn't workout that way. And if there is permanent inflation in contracts, then it won't be as great of a spike in salaries as everyone claims it to be.

gosox41
01-27-2007, 09:11 AM
Yes, he "lost" or left on the table an additional $5 million on the contract, from the Angels and Orioles.

This was 12 months ago, and the market in completely different. Do you really think KW is going offer Buerhle $95 million for 6 years? Or even $90 million?


Do you think Buehlre is worth that much? I'm all for seeing how his 2007 goes after the crappy 2006. If he posts an ERA of 4.5 + and is getting knocked around like last year, no way do I give him 5-6 years for $90-95 mill.


Bob

gosox41
01-27-2007, 09:12 AM
Nobody cares about Oswalt's deal.

Zito's deal is now the Gold Standard. When you give a #3 starter that money, what do you think 1 and 2 starters expect? And Zambrano will be setting the market for the next big contract.

I didn't realize Zito was a #3 starter.


Bob

caulfield12
01-27-2007, 09:15 AM
He is now, he's lost 3-4 MPH on his fastball and his stats have plateaued. Look at his last three years compared to his first 3.

He's still coasting on his reputation.

Jurr
01-27-2007, 09:50 AM
Does anyone else feel like the Sox are starting to follow the Atlanta Braves model? The Bravos would keep a couple of core guys, make some trades that made fans raise their eyebrows, then would plug in the young talent (especially pitching) in with the veterans without missing a beat. A lot of that can be attributed to a great pitching coach, Mr. Mazzone. Is it a coincidence that the year he leaves, the Braves suffered?

When you look at pitching, one little mechanical hiccup or a slight tweak of the arm/shoulder anatomy can end a guy's season so quick. Yeah, it's a great thing when your big money guy can pan out for an entire season. How many of these guys really do?

Tim Hudson hasn't been dominant, Mulder pretty much flopped last year, Beckett was solid in the beginning of the year but tailed off due to injuries, Matt Clement, Randy Johnson, the list goes on and on.

Who steps up huge in the World Series/NLCS? Jeff Suppan and Jeff Weaver?

Yes, I understand that pitchers always look good on paper. I absolutely adore Mark Buehrle as a ballplayer. Is he worth crippling the payroll? No. Absolutely not. A guy like Crede contributes every day, not every fifth day.

If the Sox can find a way to develop all of this young pitching into solid starters and bullpen guys, this team can be good for a long time.

It's not popular to lose established guys, but the great teams match financial responsibility with great scouting, coaching, and minor league development.
I personally don't want to see the Sox become a flash in the pan. They'll stay good if they keep making moves to get young pitching with lots of upside, given the fact that our pitching coach has a very impressive track record.

itsnotrequired
01-27-2007, 09:54 AM
But where's the money coming from? Gee I wonder? Obviously, if Reinsdorf and co. are serious about baseball being their favorite sport, then they're going to have to realize that they should start paying Mark and JD what you're paying Kirk and Ben or cut down a little bit from the baseketball side of things unless that was all BS they were spewing out and then I don't what to say after that.

As far as I understand, the Bulls and Sox are for all practical purposes separate organizations. It isn't as if Reinsdorf is taking Sox revenue and using it to pay Bulls' expenses. In fact, I believe that is illegal. Now, he could be ponying up his personal funds for payroll but I don't see that happening either.

IndianWhiteSox
01-27-2007, 09:54 AM
Does anyone else feel like the Sox are starting to follow the Atlanta Braves model? The Bravos would keep a couple of core guys, make some trades that made fans raise their eyebrows, then would plug in the young talent (especially pitching) in with the veterans without missing a beat. A lot of that can be attributed to a great pitching coach, Mr. Mazzone. Is it a coincidence that the year he leaves, the Braves suffered?

Yeah, because those Baltimore Orioles pitching staff just dominated the AL and rolled to a World Championship in 2006.

But seriously, its not and now we have Coop a guy that can make our staff a dominant one for the next decade.

peeonwrigley
01-27-2007, 09:57 AM
As far as I understand, the Bulls and Sox are for all practical purposes separate organizations. It isn't as if Reinsdorf is taking Sox revenue and using it to pay Bulls' expenses. In fact, I believe that is illegal. Now, he could be ponying up his personal funds for payroll but I don't see that happening either.

Yep. As a fan of both teams, it would be bull**** if the ownership groups skimped on one team to spend on the other. To be fair to the fans of both teams you have to treat the teams as separate entities.

UserNameBlank
01-27-2007, 10:02 AM
Does anyone else feel like the Sox are starting to follow the Atlanta Braves model? The Bravos would keep a couple of core guys, make some trades that made fans raise their eyebrows, then would plug in the young talent (especially pitching) in with the veterans without missing a beat. A lot of that can be attributed to a great pitching coach, Mr. Mazzone. Is it a coincidence that the year he leaves, the Braves suffered?

When you look at pitching, one little mechanical hiccup or a slight tweak of the arm/shoulder anatomy can end a guy's season so quick. Yeah, it's a great thing when your big money guy can pan out for an entire season. How many of these guys really do?

Tim Hudson hasn't been dominant, Mulder pretty much flopped last year, Beckett was solid in the beginning of the year but tailed off due to injuries, Matt Clement, Randy Johnson, the list goes on and on.

Who steps up huge in the World Series/NLCS? Jeff Suppan and Jeff Weaver?

Yes, I understand that pitchers always look good on paper. I absolutely adore Mark Buehrle as a ballplayer. Is he worth crippling the payroll? No. Absolutely not. A guy like Crede contributes every day, not every fifth day.

If the Sox can find a way to develop all of this young pitching into solid starters and bullpen guys, this team can be good for a long time.

It's not popular to lose established guys, but the great teams match financial responsibility with great scouting, coaching, and minor league development.
I personally don't want to see the Sox become a flash in the pan. They'll stay good if they keep making moves to get young pitching with lots of upside, given the fact that our pitching coach has a very impressive track record.

I know everyone wants to comare us to the Braves but that is way too optimistic IMO. Look at all the star players they either drafted or traded for at a young age, and look at how long they did that, and then compare them to the Sox. There is no comparison at all, IMO. Making a few offseason moves netting prospects for veterans doesn't turn us into anything other than risk takers.

I don't think a reasonable contract for Mark - meaning 5 years or less, hopefully less - would cripple this franchise. Not with Uncle Jerry willing to go around $100mil or maybe even a little more for a winning team with serious postseason chances. I also don't agree with the every day vs. fifth day logic. A starting pitcher is so much more valuable than that. Mark at his normal self has the ability to pull a team out of a slump, end losing streaks, and turn would-be losses into wins when facing tough pitchers. There is a reason he is going to be worth so much. Everyday starters IMO, especially when they hit lower than 6th in the order, are less important than the starting pitchers because usually bottom of the order guys make much less and are there for defense. Crede is special, but if only one guy could be signed, I'd take Buehrle + Fields over say Floyd + Crede.

chisoxmike
01-27-2007, 10:06 AM
Im all for not overpaying for crap free agents, but man, penny pinching your guys, especially the few home grown ones you have, pisses me off to no end.

Yeah really. I also hate the "throw my hands in the air and say it can't be done" mentality Williams has. It's really annoying. It sounds like he isn't going to even try.

soxfan13
01-27-2007, 10:11 AM
He is now, he's lost 3-4 MPH on his fastball and his stats have plateaued. Look at his last three years compared to his first 3.

He's still coasting on his reputation.

Losing some zip on his fastball really affects his bread and butter pitch the curveball how?

Beer Can Chicken
01-27-2007, 10:13 AM
I agree that overpaying Buehrle could come back and haunt us in a couple of years and it could potentially be a good thing that we lose him.
What leaves a bad taste in my mouth, however, is the way Kenny publicly deals with these situations. Buehrle is a fan favorite and one of the very few homegrown players brought up through the organization that has been very successful. The quotes in the article sound like the SOX haven't even made a good faith effort to attempt to retain him and aren't even interested in trying. That's great; fine, move on. I just don't get why KW insists on making Buehrle look like the bad guy in the process.

itsnotrequired
01-27-2007, 10:15 AM
Yeah really. I also hate the "throw my hands in the air and say it can't be done" mentality Williams has. It's really annoying. It sounds like he isn't going to even try.

I agree that he is coming off that way but I can certainly appreciate his position. You just know there are goofball teams out there that will offer Dye something like 5 yr/$65 million and Buehrle something like 6 yr/$100 million. The Sox simply can pick up those type of salaries. Throw in Thome and Konerko's salaries and you would have 4 guys accounting for half the team payroll. I don't feel that is a good situation to be in.

I'm actually kind of happy that we can even have a conversation like this though. The Sox remain one of the top payroll teams in the league and those dollars let these options even be discussed. Imagine if the Sox only had $80 million to play with. It would already be a forgone conclusion that Dye, Buehrle and Crede would be gone.

IndianWhiteSox
01-27-2007, 10:19 AM
Sure, they could offer something like this but there are teams out there that will offer more. Something like a 6 year/$100 million offer is not out of the question, especially if Buehrle returns to form. Buehrle may take a home town discount but to the tune of $25 million? I seriously doubt it and the union wouldn't be fans of the move either.

Everyone says that Buehrle will get all these offers but from where will they come from?

Boston is spent after Phone Sex Matsuzaka, DL Drew, and Lugo, the Dodgers have themselves tied up after the Schmidt, Garciaparra and Pierre signings. the Yankees are going after Zambrano, the Giants are spent after Zito, Roberts and Barroid contracts, and the Scrubs are done after shelling out almost 300mil in contracts. Also Seattle needs to keep its money for Ichiro after blowing it on crap players like Beltre, Sexson, Bautista, Washburn, and Weaver. So tell me now who will give Buehrle his 6 year 100 million dollar contract? Because I know his hometown team won't do that.
Wait I know, he's going to go to the Royals so him and Gil mess will make the best 1-2 punch in the ALC.

Beer Can Chicken
01-27-2007, 10:21 AM
Everyone says that Buehrle will get all these offers but from where will they come from?

Boston is spent after Phone Sex Matsuzaka, DL Drew, and Lugo, the Dodgers have themselves tied up after the Schmidt, Garciaparra and Pierre signings. the Yankees are going after Zambrano, the Giants are spent after Zito, Roberts and Barroid contracts, and the Scrubs are done after shelling out almost 300mil in contracts. Also Seattle needs to keep its money for Ichiro after blowing it on crap players like Beltre, Sexson, Bautista, Washburn, and Weaver. So tell me now who will give Buehrle his 6 year 100 million dollar contract? Because I know his hometown team won't do that.
Wait I know, he's going to go to the Royals so him and Gil mess will make the best 1-2 punch in the ALC.

For a low ERA lefty that doesn't get hurt and pitches 200+IP annually? I'm sure he'll get quite a few; especially if he rebounds this season.

itsnotrequired
01-27-2007, 10:24 AM
Everyone says that Buehrle will get all these offers but from where will they come from?

Boston is spent after Phone Sex Matsuzaka, DL Drew, and Lugo, the Dodgers have themselves tied up after the Schmidt, Garciaparra and Pierre signings. the Yankees are going after Zambrano, the Giants are spent after Zito, Roberts and Barroid contracts, and the Scrubs are done after shelling out almost 300mil in contracts. Also Seattle needs to keep its money for Ichiro after blowing it on crap players like Beltre, Sexson, Bautista, Washburn, and Weaver. So tell me now who will give Buehrle his 6 year 100 million dollar contract? Because I know his hometown team won't do that.
Wait I know, he's going to go to the Royals so him and Gil mess will make the best 1-2 punch in the ALC.

I wouldn't be surprised to see teams like Baltimore, Washington or even Toronto make a run at Buehrle. Hell, even the Yankees would go after him.

Flight #24
01-27-2007, 10:29 AM
My problem isn't so much with them not retaining Buehrle - if they think he's going to get paid like a #1 and he's not a #1, that's a point I could see. My problem is with comments like "I don't forsee us ever having a guy with numbers like we're seeing thrown around". That's a very bad sign, because it says the Sox are just not going to ever sign FAs (either their own or others). I'ts one thing to say "I'm not going to sign a Ted Lilly", it's another to say "I'm not going to sign a Buehrle-esque guy". If the Sox are limiting themselves to FA signings of Johan Santana types, well - there's a reason why there's only 1 of him. If Kenny really means "We need to see Mark rebound before making that kind of commitment" - I wish he'd say that.

I'd like to think that that's posturing, and given that I have heard nothing about payroll going down, I don't see how they can keep it at $100M without having SOME highly paid guys. But if you take Kenny's comments at face value, it makes it seem like they're going to try to go purely with young, cheap, guys - which IMO makes it difficult to be consistently successful because of the low hit rate on prospects.

soxfan13
01-27-2007, 10:30 AM
Everyone says that Buehrle will get all these offers but from where will they come from?

Boston is spent after Phone Sex Matsuzaka, DL Drew, and Lugo, the Dodgers have themselves tied up after the Schmidt, Garciaparra and Pierre signings. the Yankees are going after Zambrano, the Giants are spent after Zito, Roberts and Barroid contracts, and the Scrubs are done after shelling out almost 300mil in contracts. Also Seattle needs to keep its money for Ichiro after blowing it on crap players like Beltre, Sexson, Bautista, Washburn, and Weaver. So tell me now who will give Buehrle his 6 year 100 million dollar contract? Because I know his hometown team won't do that.
Wait I know, he's going to go to the Royals so him and Gil mess will make the best 1-2 punch in the ALC.

None of the teams you have mentioned have tied themselves. If they want to make a offer they will.

IndianWhiteSox
01-27-2007, 10:35 AM
None of the teams you have mentioned have tied themselves. If they want to make a offer they will.

You honestly think the Cubs, Cards, or Red Sox are going to make an offer to Mark Buehrle?

WhiteSox5187
01-27-2007, 10:35 AM
I think it is a very a foolish thing to get rid of PROVEN starters for guys with a "POTENTIALLY high ceiling." Key word is potential. Yea, Floyd and Gio might be great...or they might be Kerry Wood and Mark Prior...or they might absolutely suck. With Buerhle, you KNOW what you're getting. Zito's contract comes out to be about 12 mil a year. Buerhle is certainly worth that, not for seven or six years, but for three or four, certainly.

Kenny Williams has always professed his fondness for the way the Braves run things. Well, if you look back at the 1990s, there were three guys the Braves always kept: Glavine, Maddux, and Smoltz. Now granted they aren't there anymore. But when they left the Braves they were what? 37-38? Buerhle and Garland aren't even thirty yet! So don't give me this "We gotta go young" crap. Mr. Reisendorf always told us "We'll spend money if you fill up the ballpark." Well, we filled up the goddamned ballpark now spend the goddamned money!

IF you want to use the Braves model you hold onto Buerhle and Garland and then fill in the wholes. You don't scrap the whole thing because you don't like how the market looks.

Perhaps Mr. Reisendorf is just more comfortable with an empty ballpark and a pissed off fan base?

soxfan13
01-27-2007, 10:39 AM
You honestly think the Cubs, Cards, or Red Sox are going to make an offer to Mark Buehrle?

If they dont its not because of money. One of the teams your talking about payed +50 million just to negotiate with a player. I definately think the Cards will make a run on him if he returns to form this year. I can see the Cubs also making a offer if they decide Zambrano is too expensive

Beer Can Chicken
01-27-2007, 10:41 AM
I think it is a very a foolish thing to get rid of PROVEN starters for guys with a "POTENTIALLY high ceiling." Key word is potential. Yea, Floyd and Gio might be great...or they might be Kerry Wood and Mark Prior...or they might absolutely suck. With Buerhle, you KNOW what you're getting. Zito's contract comes out to be about 12 mil a year. Buerhle is certainly worth that, not for seven or six years, but for three or four, certainly.

Kenny Williams has always professed his fondness for the way the Braves run things. Well, if you look back at the 1990s, there were three guys the Braves always kept: Glavine, Maddux, and Smoltz. Now granted they aren't there anymore. But when they left the Braves they were what? 37-38? Buerhle and Garland aren't even thirty yet! So don't give me this "We gotta go young" crap. Mr. Reisendorf always told us "We'll spend money if you fill up the ballpark." Well, we filled up the goddamned ballpark now spend the goddamned money!

IF you want to use the Braves model you hold onto Buerhle and Garland and then fill in the wholes. You don't scrap the whole thing because you don't like how the market looks.

Perhaps Mr. Reisendorf is just more comfortable with an empty ballpark and a pissed off fan base?

This is something else that bothers me about the situation. Buehrle may not be an ace but we know what we are getting. I don't see him breaking down anytime soon. In fact, he's 27 and I see him hanging around MLB for quite some time. In that regard, Buerhle may be worth the money because it is low risk. If Buehrle isn't worth signing to 5-6 years, who the hell is?

soxfan26
01-27-2007, 10:42 AM
I agree that he is coming off that way but I can certainly appreciate his position. You just know there are goofball teams out there that will offer Dye something like 5 yr/$65 million and Buehrle something like 6 yr/$100 million. The Sox simply can pick up those type of salaries. Throw in Thome and Konerko's salaries and you would have 4 guys accounting for half the team payroll. I don't feel that is a good situation to be in.

I'm actually kind of happy that we can even have a conversation like this though. The Sox remain one of the top payroll teams in the league and those dollars let these options even be discussed. Imagine if the Sox only had $80 million to play with. It would already be a forgone conclusion that Dye, Buehrle and Crede would be gone.

This KW quote form the Trib is spot on and highlights what I consider to be KW's biggest weakness.

When I am asked a direct question, I try to give a direct answer. That often gets me in trouble.

I completely agree with your post here. I'm equally frustrated by the appearance of a defeatist attitude from KW, but you have to applaud him for his candor with the fans and his players. Something tells me he would be run out of plenty of other organizations, even with a WS win on his resume.

I want Buehrle in a Sox uniform in 2008, but not for $100m over 6 years. Unless there is a market 'correction' he will certainly be offered something very similar to that deal.

KW puts contenders on the field, which in the end is what I want to see regardless of who is wearing number 56.

IndianWhiteSox
01-27-2007, 10:44 AM
I think it is a very a foolish thing to get rid of PROVEN starters for guys with a "POTENTIALLY high ceiling." Key word is potential. Yea, Floyd and Gio might be great...or they might be Kerry Wood and Mark Prior...or they might absolutely suck. With Buerhle, you KNOW what you're getting. Zito's contract comes out to be about 12 mil a year. Buerhle is certainly worth that, not for seven or six years, but for three or four, certainly.

Kenny Williams has always professed his fondness for the way the Braves run things. Well, if you look back at the 1990s, there were three guys the Braves always kept: Glavine, Maddux, and Smoltz. Now granted they aren't there anymore. But when they left the Braves they were what? 37-38? Buerhle and Garland aren't even thirty yet! So don't give me this "We gotta go young" crap. Mr. Reisendorf always told us "We'll spend money if you fill up the ballpark." Well, we filled up the goddamned ballpark now spend the goddamned money!

IF you want to use the Braves model you hold onto Buerhle and Garland and then fill in the wholes. You don't scrap the whole thing because you don't like how the market looks.

Perhaps Mr. Reisendorf is just more comfortable with an empty ballpark and a pissed off fan base?

First things first, this is Zito's contract:
07:$10M, 08:$14.5M, 09:$18.5M, 10:$18.5M, 11:$18.5M, 12:$19M, 13:$20M, 14:$18M club option ($7M buyout)

Anyway, I do agree with what your saying about how JR might be really saying we might go cheap but you never know. I also think that KW might be getting full of himself. I also think that JR is more worried about the Bulls now that the Sox won the World Series.
:(:

rainbow6
01-27-2007, 10:44 AM
I've always been a supporter of Kenny Williams - going back to the Todd Ritchie days - but even I'm starting to get a stomache ache reading these articles...

I remember prior to the start of last season, seeing the AL payrolls listed, and seeing the Sox right behind the Red Sox and Yankees. Any major free agent or impact player availble would inevitably be linked to the Sox possibly being in the mix. Reading articles about how it wasn't unrealistic to think the Sox could draw three million fans...I felt for the first time in my 25 years as a fan that the White Sox where finally among the powerhouses of major league baseball...

If you look at each case logically, I think most Sox fans would expect Crede, Dye and Mark B. to be not be resigned (Crede's back,agent/Dye's age/no 5 years contracts for pitchers...)

However, even if that was the case, I refuse to believe that Williams won't plug in the holes with impact players he feels are more worthy of the dollars being asked by our soon-to-be free agents..perhaps it's part of the master plan.

Whatever happens, within a few years Kenny Williams legacy as a GM will be defined as either a foward-thinking mastermind or a short-sided penny-pincher who squandered the financial windfall that winning a World Series allowed him....

I still have faith.
But I still have a stomache ache.

Luke

IndianWhiteSox
01-27-2007, 10:49 AM
I've always been a supporter of Kenny Williams - going back to the Todd Ritchie days - but even I'm starting to get a stomache ache reading these articles...

I remember prior to the start of last season, seeing the AL payrolls listed, and seeing the Sox right behind the Red Sox and Yankees. Any major free agent or impact player availble would inevitably be linked to the Sox possibly being in the mix. Reading articles about how it wasn't unrealistic to think the Sox could draw three million fans...I felt for the first time in my 25 years as a fan that the White Sox where finally among the powerhouses of major league baseball...

If you look at each case logically, I think most Sox fans would expect Crede, Dye and Mark B. to be not be resigned (Crede's back,agent/Dye's age/no 5 years contracts for pitchers...)

However, even if that was the case, I refuse to believe that Williams won't plug in the holes with impact players he feels are more worthy of the dollars being asked by our soon-to-be free agents..perhaps it's part of the master plan.

Whatever happens, within a few years Kenny Williams legacy as a GM will be defined as either a foward-thinking mastermind or a short-sided penny-pincher who squandered the financial windfall that winning a World Series allowed him....

I still have faith.
But I still have a stomache ache.

Luke

I just think that right now its more about JR than KW with all of this, I mean think about it for a second. He already accomplished his main goal with the White Sox winning in 2005 and what from what I've been noticing is that he still wants to win an NBA without Michael Jordan and is more worried about that than about the White Sox right now. Hence, him not saying anything about the White Sox or payroll.

By the way, are you sure your real name isn't Tom Clancy?:tongue:

itsnotrequired
01-27-2007, 10:56 AM
I think it is a very a foolish thing to get rid of PROVEN starters for guys with a "POTENTIALLY high ceiling." Key word is potential. Yea, Floyd and Gio might be great...or they might be Kerry Wood and Mark Prior...or they might absolutely suck. With Buerhle, you KNOW what you're getting. Zito's contract comes out to be about 12 mil a year. Buerhle is certainly worth that, not for seven or six years, but for three or four, certainly.

Kenny Williams has always professed his fondness for the way the Braves run things. Well, if you look back at the 1990s, there were three guys the Braves always kept: Glavine, Maddux, and Smoltz. Now granted they aren't there anymore. But when they left the Braves they were what? 37-38? Buerhle and Garland aren't even thirty yet! So don't give me this "We gotta go young" crap. Mr. Reisendorf always told us "We'll spend money if you fill up the ballpark." Well, we filled up the goddamned ballpark now spend the goddamned money!

IF you want to use the Braves model you hold onto Buerhle and Garland and then fill in the wholes. You don't scrap the whole thing because you don't like how the market looks.

Perhaps Mr. Reisendorf is just more comfortable with an empty ballpark and a pissed off fan base?

For the bulk of the Braves days with Glavine, Maddux and Smoltz, the Braves had the top 2 or 3 payrolls in all the majors. They ponied up the dough for them but they had the ability to pay top dollar. The top payrolls were much closer back then (i.e. Yankee payroll wasn't double the other top teams). If the Sox can support one of the highest payrolls in the league, then by all means resign Buehrle and Dye.

Jurr
01-27-2007, 11:27 AM
For the bulk of the Braves days with Glavine, Maddux and Smoltz, the Braves had the top 2 or 3 payrolls in all the majors. They ponied up the dough for them but they had the ability to pay top dollar. The top payrolls were much closer back then (i.e. Yankee payroll wasn't double the other top teams). If the Sox can support one of the highest payrolls in the league, then by all means resign Buehrle and Dye.
What you DIDN'T see the Braves do was go crazy in spending mode when the salaries got crazy in 2001. They won 4 more division titles in a row. They'd take some shots in FA, but were not about to get nuts.

Bobby Jenks wasn't a name until he came up. Thornton was a cast-off, said to be nearly inept. Crede, Rowand, etc. These guys all needed a shot, and they became the "established talent" that people moan about losing. KW believes in his coaching and scouting. The good teams do.

oeo
01-27-2007, 11:31 AM
http://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/news/article.jsp?ymd=20070127&content_id=1787579&vkey=news_cws&fext=.jsp&c_id=cws

:(:

I saw this on SportsNite yesterday, and like Kenny responded with...he never said that. The media has said that, but I don't recall Kenny ever saying that.

drftnaway
01-27-2007, 11:35 AM
What are those that want Mark back at as much as $15M, if that's the "going rate", going to say if in fact he's a .500 pitcher from here on out?

The idea that when a player comes off an unusually great year he gets "rewarded" with a fat contract is common enough, but when did it become fashionable to give a guy coming off maybe his worse year to receive the same reward?

I don't know if Mark is done or not but I certainly wouldn't assume he's the same guy he was in the past either no matter what his age is. He wouldn't be nearly the first player to fall apart at the tender age of 27.

Kenny deserves to be allowed to run things the way he see fit. He's earned that. I think we should all ask ourselves are we more interested in the individual players or in the team?

WhiteSox5187
01-27-2007, 11:38 AM
What you DIDN'T see the Braves do was go crazy in spending mode when the salaries got crazy in 2001. They won 4 more division titles in a row. They'd take some shots in FA, but were not about to get nuts.

Bobby Jenks wasn't a name until he came up. Thornton was a cast-off, said to be nearly inept. Crede, Rowand, etc. These guys all needed a shot, and they became the "established talent" that people moan about losing.
While Crede and Rowand were coming up, the Sox were about an eighty win team. I have no desire to return to the days of '01-'04. I want to win NOW because we have the talent to win NOW. I don't want them to scrap that and say "Let's try and win again in five years."

As for the Braves and payroll, yea the Braves had a high payroll and guess what, the Sox can too! We're not playing in Minnesota for Christ's sake. We're playing in the third largest city in the US. We're not a small market team. We almost drew three million people. Reisendorf said if we fill up the park, he'll spend the money. We came through on our end of the deal. Time for Reisendorf to come through on HIS end. If he doesn't, he's right back to where he was following the White Flag Trade. Winning the WS got Reisendorf a lot of capital and he can squander it all away very soon as he has done countless times in the past.

WhiteSox5187
01-27-2007, 11:50 AM
What are those that want Mark back at as much as $15M, if that's the "going rate", going to say if in fact he's a .500 pitcher from here on out?

The idea that when a player comes off an unusually great year he gets "rewarded" with a fat contract is common enough, but when did it become fashionable to give a guy coming off maybe his worse year to receive the same reward?

I don't know if Mark is done or not but I certainly wouldn't assume he's the same guy he was in the past either no matter what his age is. He wouldn't be nearly the first player to fall apart at the tender age of 27.

Kenny deserves to be allowed to run things the way he see fit. He's earned that. I think we should all ask ourselves are we more interested in the individual players or in the team?
I don't mind if the Sox are playing the "wait and see" game they did with Konerko but it sure as hell sounds like the Sox aren't even going to ATTEMPT to resign him. And I agree, if he has a lousy year this year, then yea, he should be let go of. But to draw a line in the sand and say "Come hell or high water, we've made our descion and we're not going to revisit it" is arrogant and plain stupid.

As far as Kenny running things as he sees fit, well, I hate to break it to you, but Kenny doesn't decide how thigns go, it's the man who signs the checks: Mr. Reisendorf. And Mr. Reisendorf has a very poor track record. This is the guy that fired Rolen Heymond and ushered the dark era that was the mid-1980s. This is the man that helped orchestrate a strike (maybe that's not fair, but he sure as hell didn't do anything to stop it) that cost us a chance at a World Series eleven years before our success in '05. This is the man who was so upset at the looming FA market that he cost us a possible division title in '97 (oh yea, the team we were chasing that year? They won the pennant). No. Reisendorf has a history of destroying good teams, he dismantled one of the greatest NBA dynasties for the love of God. No, I'm not willing to put my faith in Jerry and assume that he knows what he's doing.

And you're also forgetting that the individual contributes a great deal to the team. Would we have won the WS without Buerhle? No. You take away Buerhle now, that leaves two major question marks in our rotation. And two question marks in a rotation and can destroy a team. Just ask the Cubs.

caulfield12
01-27-2007, 11:55 AM
Everyone says that Buehrle will get all these offers but from where will they come from?

Boston is spent after Phone Sex Matsuzaka, DL Drew, and Lugo, the Dodgers have themselves tied up after the Schmidt, Garciaparra and Pierre signings. the Yankees are going after Zambrano, the Giants are spent after Zito, Roberts and Barroid contracts, and the Scrubs are done after shelling out almost 300mil in contracts. Also Seattle needs to keep its money for Ichiro after blowing it on crap players like Beltre, Sexson, Bautista, Washburn, and Weaver. So tell me now who will give Buehrle his 6 year 100 million dollar contract? Because I know his hometown team won't do that.
Wait I know, he's going to go to the Royals so him and Gil mess will make the best 1-2 punch in the ALC.

He will be the second best FA starter on the market after Zambrano next year, that's why. Supply and demand. What did Schmidt get this year? And Schmidt is older and has an injury history.

caulfield12
01-27-2007, 12:03 PM
What you DIDN'T see the Braves do was go crazy in spending mode when the salaries got crazy in 2001. They won 4 more division titles in a row. They'd take some shots in FA, but were not about to get nuts.

Bobby Jenks wasn't a name until he came up. Thornton was a cast-off, said to be nearly inept. Crede, Rowand, etc. These guys all needed a shot, and they became the "established talent" that people moan about losing. KW believes in his coaching and scouting. The good teams do.

The Braves stopped owned when they became corporate-owned and Time Warner decided they couldn't be run 'at a loss' as Turner was accustomed to, with no responsibility to shareholders but only to his $3-5 billion in net worth.

Same thing happened with the Angels (who did win the WS at least) before they sold them off to Arte Moreno. Heck corporate ownership mentality won us the World Series...because we ALMOST traded Garland for Erstad b4 Disney shot it down as "Erstad was too identifiable to fans" and Garland was not a marquee name.

drewcifer
01-27-2007, 12:05 PM
I am really surprised by the polarity among us I'm seeing in this thread. And for the naysayers of KWs comments and philosophy, I have to wonder why you'd expect KW or JR or whoever you choose to attribute the strategy that is being employed to act any differently!

Look - '05 does not mean that we become the ****ing Yankees. We don't need to get into market bidding wars to keep our pending or existing FAs, we don't need to spend near $100M figures over 5 or 6 or 7 years on any of our pitching, we never have, and shouldn't start now.

KW hasn't made any comments that would indicate that things are personal when it comes to Buehrle or Crede or Dye. He criticizes the market, not the players, and stands his ground on how to build his team within it. He's demonstrated he knows how to build a championship team without a Yankee-esque payroll and that is a how a good GM's does his job!

There's plenty of talent and prospects out there - It's SAFER, not riskier, to stockpile it while you still have your proven talent in place to keep the machine running. We will be competitive now and for a long time if we are BUILDING MBs, rather than trying to buy them or keep them in a insanely over-valued market.

His moves are HEALTHY in so many ways. They are fiscally sound, they preach TEAM, not individuals, and they're future minded.

We all love Mark (and Joe and Jermaine too) but I wonder how many would feel the same when they turn into our nightmare version of Carl Pavano....

No thanks.

Keep doing what you're doing, Kenny - I'm behind you 100%.

caulfield12
01-27-2007, 12:07 PM
Losing some zip on his fastball really affects his bread and butter pitch the curveball how?


Why did Buehrle struggle last year, location, getting behind in the count and also his velocity was down about 2 MPH.

Zito, when he was a stud and Cy Young winner, would throw 88-90 MPH with his fastball. His curveball will always be his out pitch, but when your fastball starts to look closer to your curve (10 MPH difference needs to be maintained), then it's much easier to hit the fastball and foul off the curve.

When he came up, his curveball was entirely MISSED about 85% of the time on swings. Now it's probably closer to 50-60% misses. His walks are up and strikeouts are down. No pitcher can get by with a batting practice fastball, no matter how good his out pitch happens to be. The same thing happened with Takatsu, who throws FB's harder than Zito. That, and the fact that less of his curves were called for strikes with QuesTec, when you start getting squeezed and are forced to come in with the cheese, it often gets deposited in the seats.

WhiteSox5187
01-27-2007, 12:24 PM
I am really surprised by the polarity among us I'm seeing in this thread. And for the naysayers of KWs comments and philosophy, I have to wonder why you'd expect KW or JR or whoever you choose to attribute the strategy that is being employed to act any differently!

Look - '05 does not mean that we become the ****ing Yankees. We don't need to get into market bidding wars to keep our pending or existing FAs, we don't need to spend near $100M figures over 5 or 6 or 7 years on any of our pitching, we never have, and shouldn't start now.

KW hasn't made any comments that would indicate that things are personal when it comes to Buehrle or Crede or Dye. He criticizes the market, not the players, and stands his ground on how to build his team within it. He's demonstrated he knows how to build a championship team without a Yankee-esque payroll and that is a how a good GM's does his job!

There's plenty of talent and prospects out there - It's SAFER, not riskier, to stockpile it while you still have your proven talent in place to keep the machine running. We will be competitive now and for a long time if we are BUILDING MBs, rather than trying to buy them or keep them in a insanely over-valued market.

His moves are HEALTHY in so many ways. They are fiscally sound, they preach TEAM, not individuals, and they're future minded.

We all love Mark (and Joe and Jermaine too) but I wonder how many would feel the same when they turn into our nightmare version of Carl Pavano....

No thanks.

Keep doing what you're doing, Kenny - I'm behind you 100%.
I'm not one of those people who think that KW can do no wrong. Look, I agree with the Sox philosphy of not spending long term contracts on pitchers. That's fine. What I am against is this drawing a line in the sand attitude that KW and JR seem to have. To just say "Ah! I dont like the way the market looks, I'm not even going to bother to TALK to Buerhle" is just stupid. Flat out stupid.

And I agree that it is good to have lots of prospects, but you have to keep SOME core guys around if you want to win. Because a prospect is just that, a prospect. Not a guarentee. There have been countless, COUNTLESS, "can't miss" prospects who have missed and missed horribly. So, no, you don't want a team full of aging veterans like the Yankees and you sure as hell don't want a team of fresh faced prospects each of whom are in danger of losing twenty games as easily as they could win twenty games, which is the direction that KW appears to be taking.

2005 didn't mean that we became the Yankees, absolutely. But 2006 doesn't mean we have to be the Devil Rays and slash payroll to go with young unproven guys.

KW may have a bit of Jerry Krause in him, a guy who thinks he's smarter than everyone else and makes moves just to prove it. Well, how did that turn out for Mr. Krause? How did that turn out for the Bulls? To hell with drawing a line in the sand or proving to everyone that your smart by taking these massive risks. Swallow your god damned pride, open your wallett and try to win. It sure as hell looks like KW is trying to show people how smart he is instead of focusing soley on winning.

drewcifer
01-27-2007, 12:34 PM
I agree it would be stupid draw that line in the sand and say, "I'm not going to even bother to talk to Buehrle".

But I haven't heard or read KW say that, though. They've both agreed to focus on this season for now, and KW has intimated (very clearly, IMO) that if/when we win, the chances are better that this becomes a non-issue.

Why are we talking Marlins (I think that's what you meant when you said D-Rays), when that hasn't even happened or come close to happening? What payroll slashing, what player shedding are you citing here???? Cotts? McCarthy? Garcia?

Lest you forgot we've got a $100M payroll, top 10 in the bigs.

Relax - We're going to be just fine.

drftnaway
01-27-2007, 12:36 PM
I'm not one of those people who think that KW can do no wrong. Look, I agree with the Sox philosphy of not spending long term contracts on pitchers. That's fine. What I am against is this drawing a line in the sand attitude that KW and JR seem to have. To just say "Ah! I dont like the way the market looks, I'm not even going to bother to TALK to Buerhle" is just stupid. Flat out stupid.

And I agree that it is good to have lots of prospects, but you have to keep SOME core guys around if you want to win. Because a prospect is just that, a prospect. Not a guarentee. There have been countless, COUNTLESS, "can't miss" prospects who have missed and missed horribly. So, no, you don't want a team full of aging veterans like the Yankees and you sure as hell don't want a team of fresh faced prospects each of whom are in danger of losing twenty games as easily as they could win twenty games, which is the direction that KW appears to be taking.

2005 didn't mean that we became the Yankees, absolutely. But 2006 doesn't mean we have to be the Devil Rays and slash payroll to go with young unproven guys.

KW may have a bit of Jerry Krause in him, a guy who thinks he's smarter than everyone else and makes moves just to prove it. Well, how did that turn out for Mr. Krause? How did that turn out for the Bulls? To hell with drawing a line in the sand or proving to everyone that your smart by taking these massive risks. Swallow your god damned pride, open your wallett and try to win. It sure as hell looks like KW is trying to show people how smart he is instead of focusing soley on winning.

I think you make a big assumption when you say there have been no talks about money with any player. I would bet they have talked and these talks are what brings Kenny to his conclusions. The way you say things, like drawing lines in the sand etc, is without any factual basis and unproductive.

RealFan
01-27-2007, 12:37 PM
please help me out. Where have the Sox gone wrong in their recent past when it comes to pitchers and contracts?

Over the past ten to twelve years, we've taken a pass (either by trading or not resigning) the following list of pitchers: Alex Fernandez, Black Jack, Wilson Alvarez, Mike Sirotka, Jim Parque, Bartolo Colon, Estaban Loiza, and probably a few I've forgotten.

Who among these would you have liked enough to keep? I think when it comes to pitching and long-term contracts, the Sox have been very, very smart. Develop it internally, trade for it when the market is imbalanced, look for contracts with a few remaining years, and keep it young.

I trust KW. I love Buehrle but don't want him here at Zito-lite figures if he's not a top five pitcher.

WhiteSox5187
01-27-2007, 12:38 PM
I agree it would be stupid draw that line in the sand and say, "I'm not going to even bother to talk to Buehrle".

But I haven't heard or read KW say that, though. They've both agreed to focus on this season for now, and KW has intimated (very clearly, IMO) that if/when we win, the chances are better that this becomes a non-issue.

Why are we talking Marlins (I think that's what you meant when you said D-Rays), when that hasn't even happened or come close to happening? What payroll slashing, what player shedding are you citing here???? Cotts? McCarthy? Garica?

Lest you forgot we've got a $100M payroll, top 10 in the bigs.

Relax - We're going to be just fine.
I certainly got the impression when KW is telling reporters to "play Buerhle the tape" they aren't talking.

I'm not so worried about 2007, and I agree if (God willing) we go back to the playoffs, I think that Buerhle stays on with the White Sox like Konerko did. But if we come close and don't make it (like this year), I think he's gone. And then I start worrying about 2008-2010.

FarWestChicago
01-27-2007, 12:39 PM
I think you make a big assumption when you say there have been no talks about money with any player. I would bet they have talked and these talks are what brings Kenny to his conclusions. The way you say things, like drawing lines in the sand etc, is without any factual basis and unproductive.Yes, but he's having fun freaking out. :D:

IndianWhiteSox
01-27-2007, 12:40 PM
The only thing is Mark Buehrle is much better than all those pitchers.

Although, we should have given Bartolo Colon that 4 year deal because we would have won in '04 if he was here.

I do see your point but the thing is no-one wants the revolving fifth spot black hole again.

WhiteSox5187
01-27-2007, 12:42 PM
We decided to go for a guy named Jamie Navarro instead of a guy named Roger Clemens...we traded Keith Foulke for Billy Koch. We've just gotten luck in the past. Look, I'm not willing to put blind trust in anyone. And my major problem isn't with Kenny, it's with Jerry because Jerry is the guy who signs the checks and it will be Jerry who ultimately says "No, I'm not going to sign him for that much."

I agree with the Zito thing. I don't want Buerhle getting one hundred million dollars over seven years. But I'd be happy seeing him earn thirty six million over three years here.

veeter
01-27-2007, 12:43 PM
Kenny is simply doing what he did with Garland and Contreras. He's forcing their hand with the "you're with us, or against us" stuff. Mark can stay with the Sox, IF he'll accept a three year deal. The money will be competitive. But Kenny is not going to be held hostage by the market or some slimy agent. The choice is Mark's.

IndianWhiteSox
01-27-2007, 12:44 PM
Kenny is simply doing what he did with Garland and Contreras. He's forcing their hand with the "you're with us, or against us" stuff. Mark can stay with the Sox, IF he'll accept a three year deal. The money will be competitive. But Kenny is not going to be held hostage by the market or some slimy agent. The choice is Mark's.

That's what I hope to see come true with Mark.

WhiteSox5187
01-27-2007, 12:48 PM
I think you make a big assumption when you say there have been no talks about money with any player. I would bet they have talked and these talks are what brings Kenny to his conclusions. The way you say things, like drawing lines in the sand etc, is without any factual basis and unproductive.
Again, when KW is saying "Play Buerhle the tape" that sure as hell suggests to me that they aren't talking. Why else wouldn't KW just tell him?

And you're right, I am drawing conclusions. As are you and ultimately everyone else here. The conclusion that I'm drawing is that KW and Buerhle aren't talking and it looks like Buerhle will be gone next year and I'm not saying that based on one article, but on like five or six articles this offseason where KW has said something that insinuates that. I'm not willing to put blind trust in KW as are some people here. But I will say this, KW might very well do something between now and ST or next offseason that totally shuts me up and makes me look like an idiot. Which wouldn't be the first. Or he might prove me right.

Hitmen77
01-27-2007, 12:50 PM
The wildcard to me in the whole MB situation is his awful second half in '06. Was that just an abberation? Is it a sign that Mark has lost his effectiveness? I don't know. I hope it was just a blip, but I can see why KW would be reluctant to just hand a big, fat contract to Mark.

I'm not saying I don't want the Sox to keep Buehrle. But, it's not quite as clear cut to me as just giving good old consistent Mark a big extension.

What's the right move? I guess that's why KW makes the big bucks. I wouldn't envy being him and having to make that decision. At the very least, I credit KW for stocking up on young arms in case we do lose some of our current players.

veeter
01-27-2007, 12:51 PM
The back and forth stuff between the two, is so fascinating to me. This talk just doesn't happen, when the player and GM are in the same freakin' building. It's usually done through the press. They just need to belly up to the bar, have a few drinks and work out a deal. I mean the bottom line is Buehrle is going to be filthy rich either way. So why not just stay with the Sox.

WhiteSox5187
01-27-2007, 12:56 PM
The wildcard to me in the whole MB situation is his awful second half in '06. Was that just an abberation? Is it a sign that Mark has lost his effectiveness? I don't know. I hope it was just a blip, but I can see why KW would be reluctant to just hand a big, fat contract to Mark.

I'm not saying I don't want the Sox to keep Buehrle. But, it's not quite as clear cut to me as just giving good old consistent Mark a big extension.

What's the right move? I guess that's why KW makes the big bucks. I wouldn't envy being him and having to make that decision. At the very least, I credit KW for stocking up on young arms in case we do lose some of our current players.
Well, I think its to wait and see. And I don't mind THAT policy. I think that makes sense. But what frightens me is this talk of KW saying he doesn't like the market and he will let all of his starters from '05 go. THAT doesn't make any sense. But saying "Well, we'll wait and see and if it winds up costing us more money like Konerko, oh well we'll pay it." But I don't understand the talk coming from Kenny currently. It sounds like they're not even going to bother and if that's the case (which I think is silly) ya might as well trade him and get something for him rather than letting him walk.

IndianWhiteSox
01-27-2007, 12:59 PM
The back and forth stuff between the two, is so fascinating to me. This talk just doesn't happen, when the player and GM are in the same freakin' building. It's usually done through the press. They just need to belly up to the bar, have a few drinks and work out a deal. I mean the bottom line is Buehrle is going to be filthy rich either way. So why not just stay with the Sox.

That makes way too much sense!
:redneck

Hitmen77
01-27-2007, 01:03 PM
Well, I think its to wait and see. And I don't mind THAT policy. I think that makes sense. But what frightens me is this talk of KW saying he doesn't like the market and he will let all of his starters from '05 go. THAT doesn't make any sense. But saying "Well, we'll wait and see and if it winds up costing us more money like Konerko, oh well we'll pay it." But I don't understand the talk coming from Kenny currently. It sounds like they're not even going to bother and if that's the case (which I think is silly) ya might as well trade him and get something for him rather than letting him walk.

...except that he never said that. Maybe I'm wrong - perhaps someone can show me a direct quote?

RealFan
01-27-2007, 01:07 PM
I think the thing to remember is that KW never said he's not going to spend $$ on pitchers. He just said he's not going to be insane. And that was the point of my first post. They'll end up spending money on the RIGHT pitchers and I don't buy this "they got lucky in the past" stuff. They've proven over and over to me that they know what they're doing when it comes to resigning their own pitchers (as per the list in my first post).

WhiteSox5187
01-27-2007, 01:09 PM
...except that he never said that. Maybe I'm wrong - perhaps someone can show me a direct quote?
I don't have the direct quote, but it was in the Tribune right after the Garcia trade and right before he nearly traded Garland.

itsnotrequired
01-27-2007, 01:11 PM
What you DIDN'T see the Braves do was go crazy in spending mode when the salaries got crazy in 2001. They won 4 more division titles in a row. They'd take some shots in FA, but were not about to get nuts.

Bobby Jenks wasn't a name until he came up. Thornton was a cast-off, said to be nearly inept. Crede, Rowand, etc. These guys all needed a shot, and they became the "established talent" that people moan about losing. KW believes in his coaching and scouting. The good teams do.

Excellent point. The Braves still maintained a top 5 payroll up until just a couple years ago but they spent their money wisely. Teams like the Mets went bonkos and signed all the big names and it just didn't work out for them. Same with the Yankees.

The Sox aren't nickle and diming anyone. The team payroll is still among the tops in the majors. The Sox are just spending their money very wisely. Other than Vazquez, does anyone here believe anyone on the current roster is getting paid grossly more than they are worth? I sure don't think so. It appears as if KW will be keeping this philosophy moving forward. KW would love to keep Buehrle on the team but if there is someone out there that offers 6 yr/$100 million, no way KW will match that...and I wouldn't want him to.

gr8mexico
01-27-2007, 01:11 PM
Really? Who are these pitchers and why would they take less money than MB would?

:rolleyes:
Never did I say they would come cheaper but if your going to give Mark 14+ Mil I would rather give it to some one younger with alot of potential. Carlos plays with alot of heart and wants to win. Some people should put aside there hate for the Cubs and see how good this guy can be.

itsnotrequired
01-27-2007, 01:14 PM
I don't have the direct quote, but it was in the Tribune right after the Garcia trade and right before he nearly traded Garland.

Yes, it was basically "I'm not going to throw out the kind of insane deals that other teams are throwing out". If guys like Meche and Lily can get the deals they got this season, imagine the deals Garland would have gotten had he been a free agent. KW's loyalty is to the team and organization as a whole, not any particular player.

Rockabilly
01-27-2007, 01:14 PM
I think MB should be traded this offseason for some more top prospects in the game..

Buehrle has been amazing for the Sox and one of my fav players but I don't seeing him playing for us past this season so why not get a few top prospects t hat can help us for the next 10 years..

Would love to get some of the D backs top prospects for him

IndianWhiteSox
01-27-2007, 01:16 PM
Never did I say they would come cheaper but if your going to give Mark 14+ Mil I would rather give it to some one younger with alot of potential. Carlos plays with alot of heart and wants to win. Some people should put aside there hate for the Cubs and see how good this guy can be.

Its not because people hate the Cubs they don't want Zambrano, its because his ERA pitching in AL parks is about 6.34 in 33.2 innings pitched. Not to mention, his arm may fall off with the amount of wear and tear that has been consumed and his contract along with Reinsdorf's beliefs. Not happening.

itsnotrequired
01-27-2007, 01:18 PM
Its not because people hate the Cubs they don't want Zambrano, its because his ERA pitching in AL parks is about 6.34 in 33.2 innings pitched. Not to mention, his arm may fall off with the amount of wear and tear that has been consumed and his contract along with Reinsdorf's beliefs. Not happening.

32 IP means nothing. Zambrano is a horse and I can't imagine a team that wouldn't want him on their staff. I can't comment on the durability of his arm but this isn't Kerry Wood we're talking about here...

jdm2662
01-27-2007, 01:18 PM
All we heard last season about Garland and Contreas on how the Sox have no chance in signing, are not interested, etc. Well, what happened? We don't know what goes on behind the scenes. The media takes a couple of quotes, tries to play a story line, and tries to stir up controversy because it sells. This is why I don't pay attention to the media. What I hear from so called sports writers means very little to me.

I like Mark as much as the next guy, but the way he pitched in the second half of last season, signing him long term isn't very smart. It's not like Kenny has a backup plan. Part of running a business is having a backup plan when the first plan doesn't pan out. Is there any guarentee the backup will work? The answer is no. However, it's better than having no plan, isn't it.

As for the Bulls, they are a totally separate entity with a salary cap, max contracts, and only 12 man rosters (15 if you count inactives). It is much different than having 40 man rosters, minor league systems, etc. For the most part, you know how much a player is going to get in the NBA. As we learned this off season, you have no clue in baseball.

And please, get over the whole "JR broke up the Bulls". Jordan, Pippen, and Jackson had to much to do with it as anyone else. However, since this is Whitesoxinteractive, I will leave the topic alone...

drewcifer
01-27-2007, 01:22 PM
Its not because people hate the Cubs they don't want Zambrano, its because his ERA pitching in AL parks is about 6.34 in 33.2 innings pitched. Not to mention, his arm may fall off with the amount of wear and tear that has been consumed and his contract along with Reinsdorf's beliefs. Not happening.

Nah, nobody cares about his performance in AL parks. I don't want him because he's an ******* with a cocky attitude. He'll fall on his face eventually, and I don't want it happening while he's in our rotation and causing problems in our clubhouse.



The Sox aren't nickle and diming anyone. The team payroll is still among the tops in the majors. The Sox are just spending their money very wisely. Other than Vazquez, does anyone here believe anyone on the current roster is getting paid grossly more than they are worth? I sure don't think so. It appears as if KW will be keeping this philosophy moving forward. KW would love to keep Buehrle on the team but if there is someone out there that offers 6 yr/$100 million, no way KW will match that...and I wouldn't want him to.

Nope and that's a solid post, right there. :thumbsup:

IndianWhiteSox
01-27-2007, 01:23 PM
32 IP means nothing. Zambrano is a horse and I can't imagine a team that wouldn't want him on their staff. I can't comment on the durability of his arm but this isn't Kerry Wood we're talking about here...

You're right its not a lot to go by, but what makes you think that he can just be an ace in the AL when he needs to throw about a 40+ pitches in the NL where he at least the talent less 8 hitter and the pitcher to bail him out. In the AL almost everyone can hit and Zambrano with his antics wont last very far. If the Sox do sign him it may remind you of this guy:

:jaime

"It didn't work because I never got enough run support."

Jurr
01-27-2007, 01:25 PM
While Crede and Rowand were coming up, the Sox were about an eighty win team. I have no desire to return to the days of '01-'04. I want to win NOW because we have the talent to win NOW. I don't want them to scrap that and say "Let's try and win again in five years."

As for the Braves and payroll, yea the Braves had a high payroll and guess what, the Sox can too! We're not playing in Minnesota for Christ's sake. We're playing in the third largest city in the US. We're not a small market team. We almost drew three million people. Reisendorf said if we fill up the park, he'll spend the money. We came through on our end of the deal. Time for Reisendorf to come through on HIS end. If he doesn't, he's right back to where he was following the White Flag Trade. Winning the WS got Reisendorf a lot of capital and he can squander it all away very soon as he has done countless times in the past.
But the problem with "I want to win NOW is the fact that every year you want to WIN NOW. Every sports fan does. every Sox fan said they'd trade the next 10 seasons for one title before they die. It's so hard to win one. Everyone speaks of the '05 Sox in such reverential tones, but remember that the ALCS swung on a ball in the dirt. The Angels could've been up 2-0. The WS was decided by a few inches in every game. It's so fine the line between winning it all and losing.

Now, "while you have the talent NOW", do you just quit thinking about the future? No, the smart teams keep churning the roster, throwing in the new guys to develop alongside the older, established guys. The Sox are trying to do such a thing, yet KW is getting skewered. For instance, McCarthy. Everybody said that this guy was the next big thing. He couldn't get anybody out last year, for God's sake! Oh...but he had a good '05. So did Cotts and Politte. Where are they now?

My whole point is that the good teams are going to piss their fans off from time to time in the interests of making the club better over a longer period of time. That's what this whole thing is about.

Jurr
01-27-2007, 01:28 PM
Yes, it was basically "I'm not going to throw out the kind of insane deals that other teams are throwing out". If guys like Meche and Lily can get the deals they got this season, imagine the deals Garland would have gotten had he been a free agent. KW's loyalty is to the team and organization as a whole, not any particular player.
STOP WITH THE RATIONAL STUFF!!!! WE HATES IT!

WhiteSox5187
01-27-2007, 01:31 PM
Never did I say they would come cheaper but if your going to give Mark 14+ Mil I would rather give it to some one younger with alot of potential. Carlos plays with alot of heart and wants to win. Some people should put aside there hate for the Cubs and see how good this guy can be.
See, I think that sooner or later Zambrano is just going to throw his arm out. People point to his innings, well, from about 2000-2003 Kerry Wood was averaging two hundred plus innings. Zambrano is a great pitcher, but I personally would rather have Buerhle because I personally like finesse pitchers more than power pitchers. I can see Buerhle pitching into his forties, I don't see Zambrano doing that. I think Buerhle has just as much guts and determination to win as Zambrano.

itsnotrequired
01-27-2007, 01:33 PM
You're right its not a lot to go by, but what makes you think that he can just be an ace in the AL when he needs to throw about a 40+ pitches in the NL where he at least the talent less 8 hitter and the pitcher to bail him out. In the AL almost everyone can hit and Zambrano with his antics wont last very far.

Zambrano's career ERA is 3.29. Assume the traditional 0.5 additional runs by moving to the AL and you got a pitcher with a 3.79 ERA who will give you an average of 212 innings a year, a lot of strikeouts and is good for around 16 wins. Did I also mention he will be 26 at the start of the 2007 season?

Zambrano will be dominant no matter which league he is in.

champagne030
01-27-2007, 01:37 PM
The Sox aren't nickle and diming anyone. The team payroll is still among the tops in the majors. The Sox are just spending their money very wisely. Other than Vazquez, does anyone here believe anyone on the current roster is getting paid grossly more than they are worth? I sure don't think so.

No, but our players were all signed in a much different market, both salary AND revenue wise.

It appears as if KW will be keeping this philosophy moving forward. KW would love to keep Buehrle on the team but if there is someone out there that offers 6 yr/$100 million, no way KW will match that...and I wouldn't want him to.

I wouldn't want to sign MB at 6/$100M either. My concern is that KW won't even entertain a 5/$60M if MB returns to form. I honestly don't think he would sign Johan at 5/$80M if that were an option. I'm all for mixing in some prospects, but from a distance it looks like Phil Rogers was right in that if we cannot sign our pitchers at WAY below current market value he's prepared to turn over our entire rotation in a 4 year period. I was/am hoping to build our future rotation around Mark and Jon. I'm certainly not excited about the prospects of Floyd being #5 this season, but an '09 rotation of Jose, Jon, Mark, Danks and Gio looks a lot better than Jose, Danks, Gio, Broadway, Floyd.

IndianWhiteSox
01-27-2007, 01:38 PM
But the problem with "I want to win NOW is the fact that every year you want to WIN NOW. Every sports fan does. every Sox fan said they'd trade the next 10 seasons for one title before they die. It's so hard to win one. Everyone speaks of the '05 Sox in such reverential tones, but remember that the ALCS swung on a ball in the dirt. The Angels could've been up 2-0. The WS was decided by a few inches in every game. It's so fine the line between winning it all and losing.

Now, "while you have the talent NOW", do you just quit thinking about the future? No, the smart teams keep churning the roster, throwing in the new guys to develop alongside the older, established guys. The Sox are trying to do such a thing, yet KW is getting skewered. For instance, McCarthy. Everybody said that this guy was the next big thing. He couldn't get anybody out last year, for God's sake! Oh...but he had a good '05. So did Cotts and Politte. Where are they now?

My whole point is that the good teams are going to piss their fans off from time to time in the interests of making the club better over a longer period of time. That's what this whole thing is about.

Think off all the teams that just wanted to win now and got screwed like the Mariners(2000-2003), Mets(1998-2000),San Fran(2002-2004),and etc. My point is that if you only live for the present, you better have a 200 million dollar payroll like the Yankees or you just try to get young prospects in trades as much as possible. By the way, how dumb are the MARLINS for TRADING JOHAN SANTANA FOR ****IN' JARED CAMP and the ASTROS for LETTING JOHAN SANTANA GO IN THE RULE FIVE DRAFT!

CLR01
01-27-2007, 02:06 PM
I agree with the Zito thing. I don't want Buerhle getting one hundred million dollars over seven years. But I'd be happy seeing him earn thirty six million over three years here.


3/$36 mil would be one hell of a discount. I love how people just throw numbers around and assume the player would be happy to sign for that amount.


Why not 8/2.5 Mil? That way they can afford to sign other players.

sox1970
01-27-2007, 02:14 PM
If Buehrle bounces back to a 220 inning, 20 quality start, 16+ game winner, the Sox should offer 5 years, $75 million, and Buehrle should accept it. Period.

caulfield12
01-27-2007, 02:15 PM
I think MB should be traded this offseason for some more top prospects in the game..

Buehrle has been amazing for the Sox and one of my fav players but I don't seeing him playing for us past this season so why not get a few top prospects t hat can help us for the next 10 years..

Would love to get some of the D backs top prospects for him


Ummm...how can we trade Mark Buehrle after this season when he's a FA?

We have to trade him before July 31st or we will get nothing in return that can help us in the immediate future.

You can't be arguing we should trade him now, are you? For more prospects, so we'd have holes at 4 and 5 in the rotation?

caulfield12
01-27-2007, 02:17 PM
please help me out. Where have the Sox gone wrong in their recent past when it comes to pitchers and contracts?

Over the past ten to twelve years, we've taken a pass (either by trading or not resigning) the following list of pitchers: Alex Fernandez, Black Jack, Wilson Alvarez, Mike Sirotka, Jim Parque, Bartolo Colon, Estaban Loiza, and probably a few I've forgotten

Who among these would you have liked that we kept? I think when it comes to pitching and long-term contracts, the Sox have been very, very smart. Develop it internally, trade for it when the market is imbalanced, look for contracts with a few remaining years, and keep it young.

I trust KW. I love Buehrle but don't want him here at Zito-lite figures if he's not a top five pitcher.

Realistically, Gordon and Colon, although it has worked out with Colon's injury, I guess...but he would have helped a lot in 04 and 05. But now, we'd be stuck with him like the Angels are.

sox1970
01-27-2007, 02:17 PM
Ummm...how can we trade Mark Buehrle after this season when he's a FA?


He means before opening day. It's still this offseason, right?

WhiteSox5187
01-27-2007, 02:18 PM
But the problem with "I want to win NOW is the fact that every year you want to WIN NOW. Every sports fan does. every Sox fan said they'd trade the next 10 seasons for one title before they die. It's so hard to win one. Everyone speaks of the '05 Sox in such reverential tones, but remember that the ALCS swung on a ball in the dirt. The Angels could've been up 2-0. The WS was decided by a few inches in every game. It's so fine the line between winning it all and losing.

Now, "while you have the talent NOW", do you just quit thinking about the future? No, the smart teams keep churning the roster, throwing in the new guys to develop alongside the older, established guys. The Sox are trying to do such a thing, yet KW is getting skewered. For instance, McCarthy. Everybody said that this guy was the next big thing. He couldn't get anybody out last year, for God's sake! Oh...but he had a good '05. So did Cotts and Politte. Where are they now?

My whole point is that the good teams are going to piss their fans off from time to time in the interests of making the club better over a longer period of time. That's what this whole thing is about.
I don't mind making the Sox better over a longer period of time, so long as they are not sacraficing winning now. If you take the Braves example, there were three or four guys who they always kept: Maddux, Glavine, Smoltz and Chipper Jones. And they just plugged in around that. That meant giving younger guys, like Jermaine Dye, a chance to bloom around these veteran guys. I think that's a great idea. What scares me with the Sox is that it looks like they are either going to keep the wrong "key" guys or they are going to scrap the whole thing and go young and that's not a very good strategy. If I were the Sox I'd say "Okay, Buerhle, Garland and Konerko, those are our foundation. We will build around them." But it doesn't look like they're going to do that. It looks like they're just going to go all out young. But of course looks can be very decieiving.

Finally, for Cotts and McCarthy, I think the Sox gave up on them too early. I know they were god awful last year, but they're both young and can very well bounce right back. And Cotts is a lefty with a powerful arm, those guys are rare. I think both of 'em are gonna have great careers.

oeo
01-27-2007, 02:19 PM
I don't have the direct quote, but it was in the Tribune right after the Garcia trade and right before he nearly traded Garland.

He never said that...Phil Rogers said that.

IndianWhiteSox
01-27-2007, 02:24 PM
Finally, for Cotts and McCarthy, I think the Sox gave up on them too early. I know they were god awful last year, but they're both young and can very well bounce right back. And Cotts is a lefty with a powerful arm, those guys are rare. I think both of 'em are gonna have great careers.


I don't know about that one, the Sox seemed to rob the Rangers of 4 of their best pitching prospects all for Mac, Stewart and a single A OF, and the Sox may have gotten two future aces for Cotts. MacCarthy wasn't such a sure thing so lets not chisel out his plaque.

caulfield12
01-27-2007, 02:26 PM
You can also include Andruw Jones in that list.

Keep in mind, they also produced Jason Schmidt, Odalis Perez and Kevin Millwood, just to name a few, to supplement their starters. They were brilliant in getting cheap seasons out of a Jaret Wright here and John Thomson there.

But the Hudson and Hampton (even with the subsidy) contracts are not helping matters for the current team.

caulfield12
01-27-2007, 02:27 PM
I don't know about that one, the Sox seemed to rob the Rangers 4 best pitching prospects all for Mac, Stewart and a single A OF, and the Sox may have gotten two future aces for Cotts. MacCarthy wasn't such a sure thing so lets not chisel out his plaque.

We'll see, at one point, a few ChiSox fans thought Feliz Diaz was a steal for Kenny Lofton because he was a Top 10 prospect with SF.

If just one or two of those pitchers (Danks and Masset probably) work out, then we'll be VERY fortunate.

WhiteSox5187
01-27-2007, 02:28 PM
I don't know about that one, the Sox seemed to rob the Rangers 4 best pitching prospects all for Mac, Stewart and a single A OF, and the Sox may have gotten two future aces for Cotts. MacCarthy wasn't such a sure thing so lets not chisel out his plaque.
No, I'm not saying he's going to be a HOF, and it could be a good trade. I'm just it seemed awfully risky and I'm not so sure I saw the logic behind it. But that's why I'm not a GM.

WhiteSox5187
01-27-2007, 02:29 PM
You can also include Andruw Jones in that list.

Keep in mind, they also produced Jason Schmidt, Odalis Perez and Kevin Millwood, just to name a few, to supplement their starters. They were brilliant in getting cheap seasons out of a Jaret Wright here and John Thomson there.

But the Hudson and Hampton (even with the subsidy) contracts are not helping matters for the current team.
Yea, I agree with that. Those are the kinda contracts that I want to see the Sox stay away from. But I liked their overall strategy throughout the '90s.

caulfield12
01-27-2007, 02:30 PM
He means before opening day. It's still this offseason, right?


Fine, whatever...to me, you would say this offeason in October. Not when there's 3 weeks before spring training.

And his value now is lower than it will be if he pitches like the real Mark Buehrle. KW would have more leverage at mid-season than now. The teams aren't going to be desperate yet. Or wait until the last two weeks of ST.

champagne030
01-27-2007, 02:36 PM
I don't know about that one, the Sox seemed to rob the Rangers 4 best pitching prospects

Um, no. You seem to not know about the other D and the V out of the DVD trio, Diamond and Volquez. The Sox received ONE of their top three pitching prospects.

drewcifer
01-27-2007, 02:36 PM
He means before opening day. It's still this offseason, right?

Picking up a 9.5M option on Buehrle, then trying to trade him would be mortally stupid. If guys like Lilly and Meche are worth $10M+, why in the blue hell would you do that?????

IndianWhiteSox
01-27-2007, 02:36 PM
I meant to say 4 of their best prospects

caulfield12
01-27-2007, 02:42 PM
Picking up a 9.5M option on Buehrle, then trying to trade him would be mortally stupid. If guys like Lilly and Meche are worth $10M+, why in the blue hell would you do that?????

We have to start building for 2008 right now. KW has already written off 2007.

drewcifer
01-27-2007, 02:56 PM
We have to start building for 2008 right now. KW has already written off 2007.

I'm glad I hit the link to bring me back to the site, instead of just going off the autoreply content - I was about to fall out of my chair seeing that come from you without the teal. :cool:

IndianWhiteSox
01-27-2007, 02:59 PM
Yea, I agree with that. Those are the kinda contracts that I want to see the Sox stay away from. But I liked their overall strategy throughout the '90s.

You mean the one which lead us to the White flag trade and the empty cell?

Are you crazy!?

I do understand as long as KW doesn't lose focus on what's really important in the grand scheme of things.

WhiteSox5187
01-27-2007, 03:04 PM
You mean the one which lead us to the White flag trade and the empty cell?

Are you crazy!?

I do understand as long as KW doesn't lose focus on what's really important in the grand scheme of things.

I was refering to the Braves strategy throughout the 1990s. The one that lead them to 14 straight divisional titles.

Jerome
01-27-2007, 03:17 PM
I bet MB could get 15 million a year on the open market. Do we want to pay him that?

Jerome
01-27-2007, 03:18 PM
3/$36 mil would be one hell of a discount. I love how people just throw numbers around and assume the player would be happy to sign for that amount.


Why not 8/2.5 Mil? That way they can afford to sign other players.

Yeah why would Buehrle sign for 3/36?

drewcifer
01-27-2007, 03:26 PM
I bet MB could get 15 million a year on the open market. Do we want to pay him that?

Sure. Contingent upon 175IP+/ea and 3 years with a 4th option at the same price. Standard bonuses for post season/awards.

That would be worth it.

I'd want to re-evaulate when he's 30 if I'm KW, though....

Hitmen77
01-27-2007, 03:45 PM
Did anyone else hear KW and (separately) Crede on White Sox Weekly today?

If I heard correctly (there was some background noise where I was so I may have missed something), KW said that he personally apologied to Buehrle for the way this has come out in the press. He said that MB is not only one of his favorite players, but also one of his favorite people. Listening to him talk, it wasn't quite as clear cut as it was reported in the papers today that Buehrle is definitely on his way out and that the Sox will definitely let him go.

That's not to say that they'll definitely re-sign him. Odds probably are that MB will leave after '07. But, at least hearing KW talk today made me feel better that (unlike with other players like Maggs) KW went out of his way to speak highly of Buehrle as a player and a person and that they haven't shut the door on MB yet.

Later, they talked to Crede. He said there hasn't been any contract extension talks with the Sox yet. But he's very open to working out an extension to stay here long term. He said he was very satisfied with how KW is committed to winning on a consistent basis. He also re-iterated that Scott Boras works for Crede and not the other way around. He downplayed the Boras issue by saying that it's ultimately up to himself (Joe) to decide on what he'll accept in terms of a contract.

DocWolf
01-27-2007, 04:09 PM
:angry:Since it would seem that Mark is on the same road as Pudge, Maggs and Big Frank, which is ridiculous, it is time for Kenny to be proactive. I would start shopping him to the Yanks or Bosox right now. Get them in a bidding war. Neither would want the other to have him, so you could get some real value instead of waiting until the year is over and all you get is the pick. I know what it does to 07, but this is the path they have chosen. Some of these kid pitchers better be ML ready fast.

caulfield12
01-27-2007, 04:23 PM
:angry:Since it would seem that Mark is on the same road as Pudge, Maggs and Big Frank, which is ridiculous, it is time for Kenny to be proactive. I would start shopping him to the Yanks or Bosox right now. Get them in a bidding war. Neither would want the other to have him, so you could get some real value instead of waiting until the year is over and all you get is the pick. I know what it does to 07, but this is the path they have chosen. Some of these kid pitchers better be ML ready fast.


The Yanks have Mussina, Wang, Pavano, Igawa, Pettitte, Rasner, Karstens and H. Sanchez.

I don't think taking on Mark Buehrle is their top priority right now.

The Red Sox have Schilling, Papelbon, Wakefield, Beckett and Dice-K, not to mention Clement. Neither one of these teams really needs Buehrle DESPERATELY, not today at least. And there certainly would be no "bidding war" between the two for him.

Flight #24
01-27-2007, 04:24 PM
The Sox aren't nickle and diming anyone. The team payroll is still among the tops in the majors. The Sox are just spending their money very wisely. Other than Vazquez, does anyone here believe anyone on the current roster is getting paid grossly more than they are worth? I sure don't think so. It appears as if KW will be keeping this philosophy moving forward. KW would love to keep Buehrle on the team but if there is someone out there that offers 6 yr/$100 million, no way KW will match that...and I wouldn't want him to.

Here's my problem, and maybe it's more of a conundrum. If KW isn't going to resign Buehrle or Garland or Crede - who's he going to be paying $$$ to that keeps the payroll among the tops? By 2009, Thome, Crede, Buehrle, Garland, Vazquez, Dye, AJ will all be FAs, and if none get resigned, or only get resigned at reduced/discount rates, who's getting the $$$ that drives payroll to $100M? It's weird that KW combines "we're not cutting payroll" with "we won't have anyone on payroll at the current market prices".:?: It's not like salaries will actually decline, the best one can hope for is to have the growth rate slow.

Secondly - if Buehrle's not worth 6/$100. Who then is? And if you're not going to sign someone of at least Buehrle's caliber, who's the #1 or #2 starter for this team beyond '08? It's a huge risk to rely on one of the current slew of kids becoming a true top of the rotation starter.

The illogic of it all keeps me thinking that it's posturing. But it would make me feel a lot more comfortable if KW would say things like "We need to make sure before commiting that kind of $$$ to a player" or "We need to see Mark rebound, and I think he will, before committing that level to him" rather than "We won't have that kind of salary on payroll" or "At these prices, we can't keep him".

drewcifer
01-27-2007, 04:25 PM
:angry:Since it would seem that Mark is on the same road as Pudge, Maggs and Big Frank, which is ridiculous, it is time for Kenny to be proactive. I would start shopping him to the Yanks or Bosox right now. Get them in a bidding war. Neither would want the other to have him, so you could get some real value instead of waiting until the year is over and all you get is the pick. I know what it does to 07, but this is the path they have chosen. Some of these kid pitchers better be ML ready fast.

Umm... NO.

HotelWhiteSox
01-27-2007, 04:28 PM
Sounds like a lose-lose to me. Buehrle sucks next year, then who cares, you say bye. Buehrle is good-great, he wants the money and the Sox don't want to pay him. Time to start grooming the young ones, but of course they'll just want to be paid and the cycle will continue

I would love to see financial figures for the team. They just released a NBA version for last year on Forbes or a site like that and the Bulls were #1 in profit.

And it definately sounds like some feelings were hurt during these discussions. I guess it can happen to every team, but I hate that it has to happen with most of our top flight free agents.

caulfield12
01-27-2007, 04:30 PM
"We need to make sure before commiting that kind of $$$ to a player"

There's the conundrum. I think the majority of reasonable Sox fans would all come up with 2-3 large reservations about giving Buehrle $75 million for 5 years, giving Dye Konerko's deal or keeping Crede long-term. There are tons of reasons to wait out this season and then decide upon a course of action for all three players, Randy's Dye fetish notwithstanding.

All of those deals could blow up in KW's face and become M. Hampton type of contracts. Heck, we're at a pretty significant degree of risk with Contreras extended through 09 in my opinion.

Just curious, which one would you guys do first, priority-wise?

1) MB, $75 million for five years
2) JD, $45 million for 3 years
3) Crede, $38 million for 3 years

Some interesting decisions that can be argued from multiple POV's.

That's why KW has his job, to work with JR on these types of dilemmas.

russ99
01-27-2007, 04:35 PM
No but I think they could offer him something like Oswalt's deal which was about a 5year/75million dollar deal with like a 2 million dollar buyout before the 5th year.

Unfortunately for the Sox, that Oswalt contract was before that crazy offseason of insane spending on mediocre pitching. Suppan, Schmidt, Lilly & especially Marquis don't deserve half (a quarter for cubby Jason) of what Oswalt is making.

I see Kenny's comments as twofold:

1. Smack Mark down a bit and get him fired up to produce, especially after those last 3 horrible months where I wouldn't have payed him $ to pitch.

2. Rein in his players from the thinking that they'll get such insane money from the Sox.

I like what Kenny's doing and he's also re-instilling this "us vs. the world" mentality in the team that was sorely lacking last year.

I don't think Reinsdorf & Kenny are being cheap here, just smart. Eventually the market will re-adjust itself, and when that happens, the Sox will go further than in the FA route than they're going now.

Man, the MLB really needs a cap... :(:

itsnotrequired
01-27-2007, 04:43 PM
Secondly - Buehrle's not worth 6/$100. Who then is? And if you're not going to sign someone of at least Buehrle's caliber, who's the #1 or #2 starter for this team beyond '08? It's a huge risk to rely on one of the current slew of kids becoming a true top of the rotation starter.

You don't think someone will make Buehrle an offer along the lines of 6 yr/$100 million? If not that, 5 yr/$90 million wouldn't surprise me either. Take a look at next year's FA class for left-handed starting pitchers. Buehrle is at the top of the list.

Domeshot17
01-27-2007, 04:46 PM
Buehlre won't get the big money. That will be thrown at Zambrano and CO. Buehlre isn't a 100 mil a year pitcher. If you read his qoutes, he says he feels Zito is overpaid, and no player is worth that much money or that many years and he knows he wants to stay even if that means a home town discount. Buehlre, to me, seems like a guy that would take 12.5 a year of being where he wants over 15-16 a year of being somewhere he had to go.

I also think Buehlre is playing the game. He basically called out Kenny Williams. He wants the fans to know its not him leaving, its him not being given a chance to stay.

And this team CAN afford it. We have massive TV deals, merchandising rev is higher then it has ever been before, the fans are coming, soxfest is selling out, everything the White Sox do= $$$$$ right now. I know in the end this is a bottom line business, but there is no reason with the market it is today (and the white sox may hate it, but im sure they dont mind charging us at sox fest 4 bucks for a 12 oz can of pop or 10 oz bottle of water, 5 bucks for a slice of frozen pizza and 6 bucks for a turkey sandwhich) we shouldnt be 115mil a year team. 100 mil right now is what 75 was 4 years ago. I understand waiting to see if the Market corrects itself, but if this turns out to be the new trend, and you have to pay for premium, then do it. No More of this half ass grow um and let um leave stuff anymore.

We are a world championship franchise now. Anything less then a 90 win season and the playoffs is now a disappointment. If Kenny F's this up, and the way he is going is a MAJOR roll of the dice, it won't be long before we are back to being a small franchise. An afterthought of the city. And I don't think as many will come back to the bandwagon if they suck and win it all 7 years later.

It is just a shame that instead of putting some stock in young pitching this year (our 5th starter) he is about ready to put ALL the stock in the young pitching.

That being said, he did pick up some talented young pitching. If these guys pan out, and one or 2 proves to beat their cieling and be higher then a 3rd starter, he is a genious for 6 years, until you have to resign them I guess. I just wish if we were going this route, we had a can't miss pitcher in the system (who probably would miss anyway) because no one in our minors projects to be dominant. Danks is close, but even the reports on him don't call him anything more then a future 2 or 3

itsnotrequired
01-27-2007, 04:46 PM
Just curious, which one would you guys do first, priority-wise?

1) MB, $75 million for five years
2) JD, $45 million for 3 years
3) Crede, $38 million for 3 years

Buehrle in a heartbeat.

russ99
01-27-2007, 04:54 PM
Buehrle in a heartbeat.

There's no question. It's Dye. Crede's got Boras and the back problem and Buehrle's lost stuff and has Cardinals on the brain. I'd much rather throw the 10+ Mil/season (even with a hometown discount - after this offseasons insanity) it's going to take to resign Mark and use it on a younger pitcher with better stuff and a higher ceiling.

Buehrle and Crede are gone in 1 and 2 years anyway, barring massive market correction.

Dye deserves it most for his MVP numbers, attitude and honesty. We need to repay him for sticking with the Sox' lower offer when he signed with us in the first place. You don't hear Jermaine whining to the press about respect and all that garbage...

caulfield12
01-27-2007, 05:00 PM
Buehlre won't get the big money. That will be thrown at Zambrano and CO. Buehlre isn't a 100 mil a year pitcher. If you read his qoutes, he says he feels Zito is overpaid, and no player is worth that much money or that many years and he knows he wants to stay even if that means a home town discount. Buehlre, to me, seems like a guy that would take 12.5 a year of being where he wants over 15-16 a year of being somewhere he had to go.

I also think Buehlre is playing the game. He basically called out Kenny Williams. He wants the fans to know its not him leaving, its him not being given a chance to stay.

And this team CAN afford it. We have massive TV deals, merchandising rev is higher then it has ever been before, the fans are coming, soxfest is selling out, everything the White Sox do= $$$$$ right now. I know in the end this is a bottom line business, but there is no reason with the market it is today (and the white sox may hate it, but im sure they dont mind charging us at sox fest 4 bucks for a 12 oz can of pop or 10 oz bottle of water, 5 bucks for a slice of frozen pizza and 6 bucks for a turkey sandwhich) we shouldnt be 115mil a year team. 100 mil right now is what 75 was 4 years ago. I understand waiting to see if the Market corrects itself, but if this turns out to be the new trend, and you have to pay for premium, then do it. No More of this half ass grow um and let um leave stuff anymore.

We are a world championship franchise now. Anything less then a 90 win season and the playoffs is now a disappointment. If Kenny F's this up, and the way he is going is a MAJOR roll of the dice, it won't be long before we are back to being a small franchise. An afterthought of the city. And I don't think as many will come back to the bandwagon if they suck and win it all 7 years later.

It is just a shame that instead of putting some stock in young pitching this year (our 5th starter) he is about ready to put ALL the stock in the young pitching.

That being said, he did pick up some talented young pitching. If these guys pan out, and one or 2 proves to beat their cieling and be higher then a 3rd starter, he is a genious for 6 years, until you have to resign them I guess. I just wish if we were going this route, we had a can't miss pitcher in the system (who probably would miss anyway) because no one in our minors projects to be dominant. Danks is close, but even the reports on him don't call him anything more then a future 2 or 3


What pitcher on the FA list I posted earlier in this thread will get more than MB, after you pass Zambrano?

Jason Jennings and Kevin Millwood? They're older, and MB has a better track record and no injury history. Heck, Glavine's making even more than $12.5 at age 40. Mark is 27.

If you compare this with Zito, Schmidt, Marquis, Meche, Lilly....there's just no way he gets under $14 million per season for four plus years if he's a 15 game winner with under a 4.00 ERA. Look at the last three seasons of Barry Zito.

itsnotrequired
01-27-2007, 05:01 PM
There's no question. It's Dye. Crede's got Boras and the back problem andBuehrle's lost stuff and has Cardinals on the brain.

Buehrle and Crede are gone in 1 and 2 years anyway, barring massive market correction.

Dye deserves it most for his MVP numbers, attitude and honesty. We need to repay him for sticking with the Sox' lower offer when he signed with us in the first place.

I'm all for keeping Dye on the team but the question posed was if I could only have ONE of those deals, Buehrle would be it. Crede has back concerns and Fields is in the wings. The Sox sure got their money worth for Dye over the last couple seasons and 3 yr/$45 million seem like a fair deal but the Buehrle deal is better. Dye had the best season of his career in 2006 and I don't feel he can repeat the performance.

Also, I didn't realize Buehrle has "lost his stuff and has Cardinals on the brain." :rolleyes:

And if he was signed to a 5 year deal, how would he be gone in a year or two?

russ99
01-27-2007, 05:03 PM
I'm all for keeping Dye on the team but the question posed was if I could only have ONE of those deals, Buehrle would be it. Crede has back concerns and Fields is in the wings. The Sox sure got their money worth for Dye over the last couple seasons and 3 yr/$45 million seem like a fair deal but the Buehrle deal is better. Dye had the best season of his career in 2006 and I don't feel he can repeat the performance.

Also, I didn't realize Buehrle has "lost his stuff and has Cardinals on the brain." :rolleyes:

And if he was signed to a 5 year deal, how would he be gone in a year or two?

Ok, I deserved that one. :redface: But while I like Buehrle as a pitcher, I have serious concerns about him this season (much less during a 5 year deal) after his performance last year.

jdm2662
01-27-2007, 05:03 PM
3/$36 mil would be one hell of a discount. I love how people just throw numbers around and assume the player would be happy to sign for that amount.


Why not 8/2.5 Mil? That way they can afford to sign other players.

It's easy to throw money out there when it's not yours. I thought Mark would get at least $14 million before this off seasons insane contracts. We will have to see.

Domeshot17
01-27-2007, 05:11 PM
What pitcher on the FA list I posted earlier in this thread will get more than MB, after you pass Zambrano?

Jason Jennings and Kevin Millwood? They're older, and MB has a better track record and no injury history. Heck, Glavine's making even more than $12.5 at age 40. Mark is 27.

If you compare this with Zito, Schmidt, Marquis, Meche, Lilly....there's just no way he gets under $14 million per season for four plus years if he's a 15 game winner with under a 4.00 ERA. Look at the last three seasons of Barry Zito.

If he is serious about a home team discount he does. I think his market right now is probably 5-70, the white sox may go 4/52. Its a pretty big gap, but if he is serious about a home team discount, you never know. The only thing Im sure is the White Sox don't pay players over 14 a year. Never have and Never Will. I honestly think they would let Johan Santana walk instead of pay him, and I am a Kenny supporter.

ChiTownTrojan
01-27-2007, 05:18 PM
I just think that right now its more about JR than KW with all of this, I mean think about it for a second. He already accomplished his main goal with the White Sox winning in 2005 and what from what I've been noticing is that he still wants to win an NBA without Michael Jordan and is more worried about that than about the White Sox right now. Hence, him not saying anything about the White Sox or payroll.

By the way, are you sure your real name isn't Tom Clancy?:tongue:
I've only gotten half way through this thread, but if I read one more post from this guy saying that the Bulls have anything to do with what the Sox do I think I'm going to scream. Just shut up now, you sound like a moron. JR isn't the one making these decisions, it's much more up to KW and Paxson. JR obviously has ultimate authority to veto any of their decisions, but he entrusts his GMs to make the decisions.

Basketball and baseball economics are so far apart it doesn't make sense to compare them. In basketball, teams spend pretty much the same thing every year because of the sallary cap. It's not like JR can pull money from the Sox pay roll to add players to the bulls.

caulfield12
01-27-2007, 05:20 PM
If he is serious about a home team discount he does. I think his market right now is probably 5-70, the white sox may go 4/52. Its a pretty big gap, but if he is serious about a home team discount, you never know. The only thing Im sure is the White Sox don't pay players over 14 a year. Never have and Never Will. I honestly think they would let Johan Santana walk instead of pay him, and I am a Kenny supporter.

Ordonez made $14.5 million in 2005.

Dan Mega
01-27-2007, 05:22 PM
Buehrle in a heartbeat.

I agree, I don't even see how this is an argument.

mjmcend
01-27-2007, 05:56 PM
If Buehrle bounces back to a 220 inning, 20 quality start, 16+ game winner, the Sox should offer 5 years, $75 million, and Buehrle should accept it. Period.


Why should he accept that deal? Because you said so? Because you don't think he will get more than that?

He should try and get as much money as he can, while also playing somewhere he will enjoy and be happy. If that is not Chicago, then good luck Mark.

mjmcend
01-27-2007, 05:59 PM
Sure. Contingent upon 175IP+/ea and 3 years with a 4th option at the same price. Standard bonuses for post season/awards.

That would be worth it.

I'd want to re-evaulate when he's 30 if I'm KW, though....

Contrats cannot be contingent on future performance.

itsnotrequired
01-27-2007, 06:01 PM
Contrats cannot be contingent on performance.

Since when?

sox1970
01-27-2007, 06:04 PM
Why should he accept that deal? Because you said so? Because you don't think he will get more than that?

He should try and get as much money as he can, while also playing somewhere he will enjoy and be happy. If that is not Chicago, then good luck Mark.

Yes, because I say so.

Buehrle will be lucky to be offered more than $15 mill if he wins 14-16 games in 2007. If the Sox actually offered him 5 years at 75 million, and Mark turned it down, then all he'd be doing is squeezing out every last dollar. That would be his perogative, to which I say, good luck Mark and thanks for the 8 years in a Sox uniform.

mjmcend
01-27-2007, 06:05 PM
Did anyone else hear KW and (separately) Crede on White Sox Weekly today?

If I heard correctly (there was some background noise where I was so I may have missed something), KW said that he personally apologied to Buehrle for the way this has come out in the press. He said that MB is not only one of his favorite players, but also one of his favorite people. Listening to him talk, it wasn't quite as clear cut as it was reported in the papers today that Buehrle is definitely on his way out and that the Sox will definitely let him go.


And this KW biggest problem in my opinion. He talks to the press too much. Why do we know his personal opinion of Maggs, Thomas, and other former players? It seems he needs to defend his controversial moves in the press. A GM, like a CEO or President, shouldn't get in a pissing match with employees that are fired or not retained. They should be above that. And they certainly should not engage in that public spat while that player is still on the payroll before any future contract negoations.

I think he a great GM from a baseball standpoint, but he lets his ego get in the way.

caulfield12
01-27-2007, 06:07 PM
Yes, because I say so.

Buehrle will be lucky to be offered more than $15 mill if he wins 14-16 games in 2007. If the Sox actually offered him 5 years at 75 million, and Mark turned it down, then all he'd be doing is squeezing out every last dollar. That would be his perogative, to which I say, good luck Mark and thanks for the 8 years in a Sox uniform.

If MB wins 15 or more and has a sub 4.00 ERA, he'll get $15 million, at least.

The wins and losses is not as IMPT to me as IP/H's, BB's/Ks and ERA. You can't say Roger Clemens' salary for the last couple of seasons should be cut because his team didn't support him offensively.

ChiTownTrojan
01-27-2007, 06:08 PM
It's an argument until Buerhle proves that the second half of 2006 was a fluke. If he doesn't regain his command, I wouldn't want him pitching on the team for free.

My opinion is that a lot of this talk in the media is just that.... talk. KW has used the media before in order to get better deals for his pitchers. It was the same thing last year with Contreras and Garland, and both re-signed. It looks like Buerhle is shooting back with a little of the same. I think there is still a decent chance of MB returning to the Sox. I'm not overly confident, but I am hopeful.

A lot will depend on his performance this year. I think if he returns to form, KW will pony up the money for a 4 year deal. Any longer than that is too risky. The only reason he gets more than 3 yrs is because of all the intangibles he brings to the team as the leader and longest-tenured guy on the pitching staff.

ChiTownTrojan
01-27-2007, 06:11 PM
Yes, because I say so.

Buehrle will be lucky to be offered more than $15 mill if he wins 14-16 games in 2007. If the Sox actually offered him 5 years at 75 million, and Mark turned it down, then all he'd be doing is squeezing out every last dollar. That would be his perogative, to which I say, good luck Mark and thanks for the 8 years in a Sox uniform.
I agree that Buerhle wouldn't turn down 5/75, but I think it's a very slim chance that the Sox would offer that to him, given their history and comments on long-term pitching deals. A 3-4 year deal is much more likely.

mjmcend
01-27-2007, 06:13 PM
Since when?

Sorry, I meant future performance.

veeter
01-27-2007, 06:23 PM
And this KW biggest problem in my opinion. He talks to the press too much. Why do we know his personal opinion of Maggs, Thomas, and other former players? It seems he needs to defend his controversial moves in the press. A GM, like a CEO or President, shouldn't get in a pissing match with employees that are fired or not retained. They should be above that. And they certainly should not engage in that public spat while that player is still on the payroll before any future contract negoations.

I think he a great GM from a baseball standpoint, but he lets his ego get in the way.I really agree with this.

JNS
01-27-2007, 07:15 PM
And this KW biggest problem in my opinion. He talks to the press too much. Why do we know his personal opinion of Maggs, Thomas, and other former players? It seems he needs to defend his controversial moves in the press. A GM, like a CEO or President, shouldn't get in a pissing match with employees that are fired or not retained. They should be above that. And they certainly should not engage in that public spat while that player is still on the payroll before any future contract negoations.

I think he a great GM from a baseball standpoint, but he lets his ego get in the way.

He does let his emotions get in his way sometimes, as when he let loose on Thomas at spring training last year.

I heard him on WSCR this afternoon saying that he talked to Mark and his parents and apologized for getting ahead of the situation. He said something to the affect of how he tries to answer questions truthfully and sometimes he says things that can be interpreted in ways that he did not intend.

I think many of the arguments about Buerhle's talent and potential asking price have merit - I just worry that JR is still too tight with a buck - sometimes you have to pay a guy for six years when you know that he'll only be any good for four. And sometimes it's worth it to do that - not always, but sometimes. That's baseball, and I wonder if JR can get his head around that,

caulfield12
01-27-2007, 07:29 PM
He does let his emotions get in his way sometimes, as when he let loose on Thomas at spring training last year.

I heard him on WSCR this afternoon saying that he talked to Mark and his parents and apologized for getting ahead of the situation. He said something to the affect of how he tries to answer questions truthfully and sometimes he says things that can be interpreted in ways that he did not intend.

I think many of the arguments about Buerhle's talent and potential asking price have merit - I just worry that JR is still too tight with a buck - sometimes you have to pay a guy for six years when you know that he'll only be any good for four. And sometimes it's worth it to do that - not always, but sometimes. That's baseball, and I wonder if JR can get his head around that,


Your statement definitely applies to Dye, but shouldn't apply to Buehrle and Crede as much, although both have multiple question marks if they were to receive multi-year extensions this weekend.

I'm not sure if Sox fans wouldn't be grousing about paying too much money to Buehrle when he hasn't proved he's worth it based on the 2nd half of 2006, that we don't need to give Crede $10 million plus per year with his back issues and the presence of Josh Fields and that Dye had one "fluke" season and giving him a "Beltre" deal when he's nearing the downside of his career and is an injury risk would be a stretch.

WhiteSox5187
01-27-2007, 09:27 PM
Maybe I'm in the minority here, but if I had to choose between Buerhle and Dye, I'd choose Buerhle (now, ask me this in September and I may say something else). Buerhle is younger and you can never have enough pitching. Just my humble opinion.

itsnotrequired
01-27-2007, 09:57 PM
Maybe I'm in the minority here, but if I had to choose between Buerhle and Dye, I'd choose Buerhle (now, ask me this in September and I may say something else). Buerhle is younger and you can never have enough pitching. Just my humble opinion.

You would not be in the minority.

Slats
01-27-2007, 10:22 PM
"Assessing what our focus is and what our direction is, is there something there that's a realistic opportunity in retaining Buehrle? Only he knows the answer to that. Have we explored the possibility? Yes. Am I optimistic? Not at all. Not at all."

"All I try to do is answer questions as honestly and as openly as possible," added Williams before concluding his thought and telling reporters to play the tape for Buehrle. "Is there going to be a pitcher around here who gets some of the dollars and the years that have been put out there? Very, very unlikely, unless something dramatically happens to where we don't have any options." -KW


Mark will be gone from the White Sox by the trading deadline. The bigger question is who we get for him.

DocWolf
01-27-2007, 10:25 PM
The Yanks have Mussina, Wang, Pavano, Igawa, Pettitte, Rasner, Karstens and H. Sanchez.

I don't think taking on Mark Buehrle is their top priority right now.

The Red Sox have Schilling, Papelbon, Wakefield, Beckett and Dice-K, not to mention Clement. Neither one of these teams really needs Buehrle DESPERATELY, not today at least. And there certainly would be no "bidding war" between the two for him.

I would take Buehrle over Pavano (injury hound), Igawa, Rasner? Karstens? and H.Sanchez? in a Yankee minute. As far as the Red Sox, Papelbon isn't closing? Schilling is ancient, Wakefield, are you kidding? There isn't a team in baseball that doesn't need a pitcher like Buehrle, Sox included, but at least you could get a return.

itsnotrequired
01-27-2007, 10:26 PM
"Assessing what our focus is and what our direction is, is there something there that's a realistic opportunity in retaining Buehrle? Only he knows the answer to that. Have we explored the possibility? Yes. Am I optimistic? Not at all. Not at all."

"All I try to do is answer questions as honestly and as openly as possible," added Williams before concluding his thought and telling reporters to play the tape for Buehrle. "Is there going to be a pitcher around here who gets some of the dollars and the years that have been put out there? Very, very unlikely, unless something dramatically happens to where we don't have any options." -KW


Mark will be gone from the White Sox by the trading deadline. The bigger question is who we get for him.

KW has already apologized for the tone of his comments.

Flight #24
01-27-2007, 11:01 PM
You don't think someone will make Buehrle an offer along the lines of 6 yr/$100 million? If not that, 5 yr/$90 million wouldn't surprise me either. Take a look at next year's FA class for left-handed starting pitchers. Buehrle is at the top of the list.

FWIW, my bad. my statement wasn't meant to say "Buehrle isn't worth 6/$100, who is?", it was meant to say "IF Buehrle isn't worth 6/$100, who is?".

I believe given the market, that's his worth. I also don't believe the Sox will find a similar pitcher cheaper than that - so if they're just flat not going to pay those rates, then they're committing to either a)acquiring pitchers more flawed than Buehrle or b)going with youth, which is hugely unpredictable - especially for pitching prospects.

While I'm not a stathead, I do think there's some truth to the stathead philosophy "There Is No Such Thing As A Pitching Prospect". Which I take to mean they're so unpredictable that it's difficult to rely on them to pan out - and when you're relying on multiples of them, it's significantly more risky than one.

ZombieRob
01-27-2007, 11:24 PM
KW has already apologized for the tone of his comments.
I don't understand why.I think its great that hes blunt and tells it like it is.Always can appreciate someone who is straight forward and doesn't beat around the bush .

itsnotrequired
01-27-2007, 11:27 PM
I don't understand why.I think its great that hes blunt and tells it like it is.Always can appreciate someone who is straight forward and doesn't beat around the bush .

There is a large difference between "telling it like it is" and being insensitive. KW may have been trying to make a point but it came out all wrong, hence the apology. Buehrle, KW and all interested parties are well aware of the situation. There is no need for KW or Buehrle to "tell it like it is".

ZombieRob
01-27-2007, 11:46 PM
There is a large difference between "telling it like it is" and being insensitive. KW may have been trying to make a point but it came out all wrong, hence the apology. Buehrle, KW and all interested parties are well aware of the situation. There is no need for KW or Buehrle to "tell it like it is".
From what i read he wasn't insensitive to Buerhle is just wasn't supposed to be public.I guess thats what i respect about KW is that he is honest with the public instead of the usual G.M secrecy.But i suppose what he said about overpaying for old and or mediocre talent could be taken out of context.

itsnotrequired
01-27-2007, 11:50 PM
From what i read he wasn't insensitive to Buerhle is just wasn't supposed to be public.I guess thats what i respect about KW is that he is honest with the public instead of the usual G.M secrecy.But i suppose what he said about overpaying for old and or mediocre talent could be taken out of context.

http://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/news/article.jsp?ymd=20070127&content_id=1788160&vkey=news_cws&fext=.jsp&c_id=cws

ZombieRob
01-27-2007, 11:58 PM
http://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/news/article.jsp?ymd=20070127&content_id=1788160&vkey=news_cws&fext=.jsp&c_id=cws
More or less the same as Mark Gonzales' article.I can see both points of view for sure.

PennStater98r
01-28-2007, 12:47 AM
And this KW biggest problem in my opinion. He talks to the press too much. Why do we know his personal opinion of Maggs, Thomas, and other former players? It seems he needs to defend his controversial moves in the press. A GM, like a CEO or President, shouldn't get in a pissing match with employees that are fired or not retained. They should be above that. And they certainly should not engage in that public spat while that player is still on the payroll before any future contract negoations.

I think he a great GM from a baseball standpoint, but he lets his ego get in the way.

Amen. Kenny, thanks for the World Series. Thanks for putting a team together that can compete with good teams, but **** concerning your opinions of players - Hurt, Mark - Mags. Sheesh. I say it's in the bank that MB is gone after '08, and one big reason is staring us all in the face.

Flight #24
01-28-2007, 12:47 AM
http://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/news/article.jsp?ymd=20070127&content_id=1788160&vkey=news_cws&fext=.jsp&c_id=cws

The best part is that KW says he thought the same before resigning Garland, Jose, Paulie. The bad is that nowhere does he say that he's willing to pay anything close to the current going rate for that caliber of talent.

StillMissOzzie
01-28-2007, 01:03 AM
I think that the bigger problem with keeping Buehrle will be the reluctance on the part of the Sox to go longer than 3 years on a pitcher's contract. Even if KW were to offer $15M, that ends up being a 3 yr/$45M deal, and I think that there are plenty of other teams willing to go another year at the same average salary, if not a bump in the pay as well. This could play out just like the Colon situation from a few years back.

SMO
:gulp:

HotelWhiteSox
01-28-2007, 01:34 AM
Amen. Kenny, thanks for the World Series. Thanks for putting a team together that can compete with good teams, but **** concerning your opinions of players - Hurt, Mark - Mags. Sheesh. I say it's in the bank that MB is gone after '08, and one big reason is staring us all in the face.

I agree with most of this, he needs to take his own advice given to Ozzie. I thought it sucked that I was not able to see Frank honored by getting a ring or witnessing the ovation that would have ensued, and while Kenny played a huge role in getting the ring, he also played a huge role in Frank not being there.

caulfield12
01-28-2007, 04:28 AM
Well, if he were being totally transparent, he would tell us how much he offered Magglio, Thomas, Buehrle, etc., how many years, was it all "upfront" or was it a typically "backloaded" deal like the one for Magglio that increases dramatically the last two years, what clauses or riders (like the not sliding on the tarp thing, who knows, maybe the Cardinals want Buehrle to do that???) are involved, incentives.

I would feel better knowing we at least TRIED, that KW had offered at least a four year deal for at least $12 million per season. Then it wouldn't be so frustrating to see another Danks or Garcia talent raffle.

IndianWhiteSox
01-28-2007, 07:36 AM
I agree with most of this, he needs to take his own advice given to Ozzie. I thought it sucked that I was not able to see Frank honored by getting a ring or witnessing the ovation that would have ensued, and while Kenny played a huge role in getting the ring, he also played a huge role in Frank not being there.

Yeah that's true and I felt bad as well but with the Frank fiasco, as much as I loved the Big Hurt in the day, he sort of started bad mouthing KW and whining about why he couldn't play in the post-season and etc.

WhiteSox5187
01-28-2007, 11:26 AM
I think that the bigger problem with keeping Buehrle will be the reluctance on the part of the Sox to go longer than 3 years on a pitcher's contract. Even if KW were to offer $15M, that ends up being a 3 yr/$45M deal, and I think that there are plenty of other teams willing to go another year at the same average salary, if not a bump in the pay as well. This could play out just like the Colon situation from a few years back.

SMO
:gulp:
I think if the Sox offer something close to that, Buerhle would resign simply because I truly think that he does love being here in Chicago. But if Buerhle asks for a fourth year, I sure as hell would give it to him.

JNS
01-28-2007, 11:44 AM
I agree with most of this, he needs to take his own advice given to Ozzie.

Yeah - in a sense it's pretty funny. KW tells Ozzie to watch his mouth, and now KW sees how his own spouting off can cause damage.

I think the Buerhle situation depends on:
What MB's 2007 season is like, and how far the Sox go. If MB is the stud on the Sox 2007 World Series winning team, I think he probably has to sign him even if it is too much $ for too many years.
What the going prices for pitchers of MB's quality are after the 2007 season. If KW and JR are correct, there will be a "market correction" (KW's words) and salaries/years will be more reasonable. if that's the case they may re-sign him.
If MB has a mediocre 07 season and is offered Mark Zito bucks, fahgitaboudit. He's gone.
The pace and quality of the development of all the kids KW has obtained in the McCarthy, Garcia, and Gload deals this year. If the Sox have a stable of up and coming studs, and it's clear that a couple of them will be fantastic, MB be gone. If it looks like most of them won't pan out, or will take longer than expected to get to the big show, they may resign him if he gives the Sox the "home team discount" or whatever MB called it. After all, Paulie gave the discount and he's not exactly in the poor house.I think KW sometimes lets his intensity and emotions get the better of him in public. One less Starbucks in the AM might help. :D:

One way or the other, it ain't over till it's over. MB is a Sox for at least 2007 (unless they trade him, as one poster has predicted).

caulfield12
01-28-2007, 12:08 PM
The Paulie discount was $5 million, and then it was REALLY close to him bolting.

And don't be so sure about KW and JR, they might be more likely to to do the same thing as the Cardinals this offseason...letting Suppan, Weaver and Marquis bolt. However, I wouldn't say MB is a good comparison...just that it's not a sure thing that MB will be kept if they win another Series.

KW might want to show it can be done a 3rd time HIS way, with all HIS players that he brought into the organization.

IndianWhiteSox
01-28-2007, 12:13 PM
The Paulie discount was $5 million, and then it was REALLY close to him bolting.

And don't be so sure about KW and JR, they might be more likely to to do the same thing as the Cardinals this offseason...letting Suppan, Weaver and Marquis bolt. However, I wouldn't say MB is a good comparison...just that it's not a sure thing that MB will be kept if they win another Series.

KW might want to show it can be done a 3rd time HIS way, with all HIS players that he brought into the organization.


If that's really the case, then he better make it work, otherwise he'll go down the Jerry Krause path of failure.

ChiTownTrojan
01-28-2007, 12:52 PM
I think that the bigger problem with keeping Buehrle will be the reluctance on the part of the Sox to go longer than 3 years on a pitcher's contract. Even if KW were to offer $15M, that ends up being a 3 yr/$45M deal, and I think that there are plenty of other teams willing to go another year at the same average salary, if not a bump in the pay as well. This could play out just like the Colon situation from a few years back.

SMO
:gulp:
Agreed, the length of contract will be the biggest difference between the offers he gets from us and those from other teams. If MB bounces back and has a solid season in 2007, I think KW will offer something to the tune of 3 yr/$45M. Maybe even go to 4/60 (a bit less likely). He'll never go above that, and some team will probably be willing to go to 5, 6, or even 7 years. So it depends on what he values most..... staying with the team he's been with for 8 seasons, or financial security for a long, long time. It'll probably be very tough for him to turn down a 6-year offer no matter where it is.

caulfield12
01-28-2007, 12:54 PM
I guess the better question, when's the last time a player turned down a 5-8 year deal for a 3-4 year deal?

JNS
01-28-2007, 01:19 PM
The Paulie discount was $5 million, and then it was REALLY close to him bolting.

And don't be so sure about KW and JR, they might be more likely to to do the same thing as the Cardinals this offseason...letting Suppan, Weaver and Marquis bolt. However, I wouldn't say MB is a good comparison...just that it's not a sure thing that MB will be kept if they win another Series.

KW might want to show it can be done a 3rd time HIS way, with all HIS players that he brought into the organization.

Right - MB certainly isn't Jason Marquis or Weaver - he's much better than they are.

As others have pointed out, it has more to do with the length than the size of the contract. And the Sox just refuse to offer more than three years to any pitcher. In many cases it's understandable, but I would refer to my earlier point about how sometimes you have to pay for five to get a good three. I guess the thing that begins to bug me is the sense that JR looks at this as some sort of guiding principle as if there was a moral imperative here.

To me (and lots of others) the bottom line is winning. If you win you make money and can afford to pay guys a little longer even if they are no longer worth it. If you win you are still getting good value for your money. If the Sox stay in contention and get back to the WS at some point soon paying MB or whoever a little longer than they are worth is still OK.

I would add that MS is NOT one of those journeyman Cardinals pitchers or Ted Lilly or any of those other bums who got rich over the Fall. He's a legit ace who had his first shaky season in 06. He is aware of the problem. IMO he will correct it and have another fine season.

All that said, as I stated earlier, if Floyd or one of the guys from Texas look like they will be top-line starters very soon, I doubt KW and JR will want to pay the freight. All we need are five good starters with one or two in the pipeline (all we need - makes it seem easy). If the Sox have that without MB, so be it.

Flight #24
01-28-2007, 04:27 PM
What the going prices for pitchers of MB's quality are after the 2007 season. If KW and JR are correct, there will be a "market correction" (KW's words) and salaries/years will be more reasonable. if that's the case they may re-sign him.

There's been a lot of talk about a "market correction". But there hasn't been a decline in salaries in previous "corrections", just a slowing of growth. Which means that as of the 08 offseason, it's not realistic o expect the deals to decline, just that they won't be 30-50% higher than what's being signed this year.

But if KW isn't going to pay the current rates, it's not realistic to think that similar or better talent than signed this year (i.e. Buehrle, who's either the same or better than Zito) is going to make less.

ilsox7
01-28-2007, 04:43 PM
There's been a lot of talk about a "market correction". But there hasn't been a decline in salaries in previous "corrections", just a slowing of growth. Which means that as of the 08 offseason, it's not realistic o expect the deals to decline, just that they won't be 30-50% higher than what's being signed this year.

But if KW isn't going to pay the current rates, it's not realistic to think that similar or better talent than signed this year (i.e. Buehrle, who's either the same or better than Zito) is going to make less.

According to this (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=1777832), there has been a decline in salaries recently.

IndianWhiteSox
01-28-2007, 04:49 PM
According to this (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=1777832), there has been a decline in salaries recently.

Now there's a credible source!

Isn't that article a few years old

ilsox7
01-28-2007, 04:53 PM
Now there's a credible source!

Isn't that article a few years old


Uh, look at my post. I said there has been a market correction recently. The year 2004 is recent. No one is saying there absolutely will be a market correction. And most who even think that one is likely will not go as far as saying it will happen next winter. Chances are, if a full-blown market correction, or even a slow-down occurs, it will be after the 2008 or 2009 season. There are some big names as free agents next winter(unlike this winter). Those guys are going to get their cash. It's what happens next that will be interesting. Teams will be a couple of years into Soriano and Matthews deals.

And for those saying there never was a market correction (even though there has been), how do you explain the lack of Hampton, Neagle, Beltran, Helton, Rodriguez, etc deals in the years that followed those deals (up until this winter)?

caulfield12
01-28-2007, 05:14 PM
Denny Neagle

JNS
01-28-2007, 05:53 PM
But if KW isn't going to pay the current rates, it's not realistic to think that similar or better talent than signed this year (i.e. Buehrle, who's either the same or better than Zito) is going to make less.

I agree with you both in terms of the possibility of a decrease and your point about slowing of increase. I don't know which KW was referring to, but it really doesn't matter.

I should probably be more willing to give KW the benefit of the doubt and trust that a fairly complex matrix of circumstances, as they apply at the end of the upcoming season, will dictate what happens between the Sox and MB.

Flight #24
01-28-2007, 06:57 PM
According to this (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=1777832), there has been a decline in salaries recently.

True. Here's an analysis from BP of salaires in years after CBAs were signed/renewed:


Y1 Y2 Y3 Y4 Y5 Y6
1977 48% 31% 14% 27% 29%
1982 30% 20% 14% 13%
1986 11% 0% 6% 13% 20%
1991 43% 21% 5% 9% -5% 1%
1997 19% 5% 15% 18% 13% 7%
2003 3% -2% 7% 9%
AVERAGE 26% 13% 10% 15% 14% 4%

The key to notice above is that there is 1 negative number. That's the year you cited, 2004. Every other year entails an increase, most of them significant. If Kenny's betting that something that's happened extremely rarely is going to happen in 1-2 years, and that's the focus of his plan, I can't say I'm behind it.

Edit: Damn formatting. I need to learn how to do tables.

ilsox7
01-28-2007, 07:16 PM
True. Here's an analysis from BP of salaires in years after CBAs were signed/renewed:



The key to notice above is that there is 1 negative number. That's the year you cited, 2004. Every other year entails an increase, most of them significant. If Kenny's betting that something that's happened extremely rarely is going to happen in 1-2 years, and that's the focus of his plan, I can't say I'm behind it.

Edit: Damn formatting. I need to learn how to do tables.

The dynamic of the game/market has probably changed more in the last several years than any other time (other than the start of free agency).

In 1998, the average player salary was about $1.4MM. It took 10 seasons for that average salary to double to $2.8MM. To get to that point we saw 3 winters of large increases (14%-20% each winter). Then we saw 5 winters of markedly slower increases. So while we may have a couple of winters which show clubs spending a lot of money recent history shows that this will slow considerably.

Even the Yankees have gotten to a point where money has become somewhat of a consideration. In a couple of years, several of these contracts signed this winter are going to show themselves to be the albatrosses that many predict. You're going to have guys that have contracts that are so bad, you will not be able to give them away (Manny Ramirez the last few years anyone?). Look at Helton's situation. They are talking of trading him and picking up $45MM of his deal at the same time. A deal like that has severely handcuffed the Rockies (along with a couple of other deals).

The same thing is likely to happen with deals inked this winter. It's one thing to set a new market by signing elite or even excellent players. But the money being thrown around at average or slightly better than average players this winter is insane. If the marker truly settles at the Ted Lily's of the world making $10MM a year then we're looking at average payrolls of $125MM. If the average payroll is $125MM, then the average player on a 25-man roster is making $5MM, or almost double the average 2006 salary.

Is it rational to think that salaries will double in 2-3 years when it last took 10 years to do so? I don't think it is, just as many baseball people do not see it that way. Is it a guarantee? No, it's not. But it's a safer bet, IMO, than handing out insane contracts to mediocre players.

Flight #24
01-28-2007, 08:28 PM
You're going to have guys that have contracts that are so bad, you will not be able to give them away (Manny Ramirez the last few years anyone?). Look at Helton's situation. They are talking of trading him and picking up $45MM of his deal at the same time. A deal like that has severely handcuffed the Rockies (along with a couple of other deals).

The same thing is likely to happen with deals inked this winter. It's one thing to set a new market by signing elite or even excellent players. But the money being thrown around at average or slightly better than average players this winter is insane. If the marker truly settles at the Ted Lily's of the world making $10MM a year then we're looking at average payrolls of $125MM. If the average payroll is $125MM, then the average player on a 25-man roster is making $5MM, or almost double the average 2006 salary.

Is it rational to think that salaries will double in 2-3 years when it last took 10 years to do so? I don't think it is, just as many baseball people do not see it that way. Is it a guarantee? No, it's not. But it's a safer bet, IMO, than handing out insane contracts to mediocre players.

Yet the Red Sox were not willing to give Manny away the past couple of years, and Helton's currently a seriously flawed player. Sure, teams will be regretting the Ted Lilly deals and be willing to subsidize them to get rid of them. And the Giants may be willing to do the same with Zito - but probably not until he declines in the out years of his deal. Are those really the kind of guys the Sox are going to target for anything more than the 4/5 slots in the rotation? Which again leaves you hoping that you can develop a 1-3 internally or you're screwed?

I don't think it's realistic to expect a team to trade a guy performing like a #1 or #2 pitcher at a discount - even at the prices guys are currently getting. So while you will be able to find your innings-eaters/bottom rotation guys cheaper than now (and I don't blame KW for not getting into that market), the question is still: where will you get your top 3 if you're not willing to play the going rate?

Heck - even if you're right and salaries will decline a slight bit (like the -5% in '04), it's not likely to happen next year, earliest will be in '09, if then. So what exactly will the Sox be doing while Thome, Konerko, Dye, Iguchi, AJ are aging and they're bidding goodbye to Buehrle, Garland, Crede, Dye?

I'm not convinced that what KW is saying is what they'll do, but his constant reiterating of it is worrisome.

ilsox7
01-28-2007, 08:31 PM
Yet the Red Sox were not willing to give Manny away the past couple of years, and Helton's currently a seriously flawed player. Sure, teams will be regretting the Ted Lilly deals and be willing to subsidize them to get rid of them. And the Giants may be willing to do the same with Zito - but probably not until he declines in the out years of his deal. Are those really the kind of guys the Sox are going to target for anything more than the 4/5 slots in the rotation? Which again leaves you hoping that you can develop a 1-3 internally or you're screwed?

I don't think it's realistic to expect a team to trade a guy performing like a #1 or #2 pitcher at a discount - even at the prices guys are currently getting. So while you will be able to find your innings-eaters/bottom rotation guys cheaper than now (and I don't blame KW for not getting into that market), the question is still: where will you get your top 3 if you're not willing to play the going rate?

You develop them within your own system. This is exactly why KW is stockpiling arms. You cannot carry a $100MM payroll (well above average) with a $60MM rotation and expect to be a contender. That is why it is imperative to develop quality pitching within the organization.

Flight #24
01-28-2007, 10:02 PM
You develop them within your own system. This is exactly why KW is stockpiling arms. You cannot carry a $100MM payroll (well above average) with a $60MM rotation and expect to be a contender. That is why it is imperative to develop quality pitching within the organization.

My point would be that since you can't survive with a $60MM rotation, it's imperative to lock in the top guys if you want to stay a contender because you simply cannot rely on developing aces internally - pitching prospects are too variable. So you give Garland & Buehrle their $17/yr. Then you have the flexibility to add in a single $5-10M vet (either via trade with salary being picked up or in a deal like the recent one for Weaver). That leaves you relying on 2 of your current crop of 6-odd guys to come up in the ext 2-3 years and be solid starters. Voila - a $40M rotation that is capable of winning a title and is a far surer bet than what they appear to be relying on now.

Now, it's true that getting from here to there could result in a bump for a year or 2, but that's OK. You should be able to maintain a $100M payroll and in true contending years, up it a bit. I think 07-08 would qualify. So you stick with the current 5 (one of the rooks at #5) for '07. Then you resign Buehrle @ $17M and trade Vaz (arb-eligible), bringing up 1 more rook out of the crop of 6 and saving a couple of mil. Then you resign Garland @ 18M and let Jose go (bringing up another rook, or signing a vet to fill the rotation), saving another couple of mil. Or if the team is really in shape for it - you let the payroll go up by the amount needed to keep Jose for that last year (I think his deal's up after '09).

'07 rotation: Jose ($10M), Jon ($10M), Mark ($9.5M), Vaz ($9.5M), Rook:Floyd/Haeger/Broadway -->Total = $38M
'08 rotation: Jose ($10M), Jon ($10M), Mark ($17M), Rook ($1M), Rook:Danks/Gio/Sisco -->Total = $38M
'09 rotation: Jon ($18M), Mark ($17M), Rook ($1M), Rook ($1M), Vet/Rook ($.33-5M) -->Total = $37-42M (Or keep Jose and it's $47M for a year)

Meanwhile, you resign or already have core offensive players: Dye ($15M), Konerko ($12M), Crede ($12M), Iguchi ($8M), Thome ($8M) surrounded by young talent like Anderson, Sweeney, Fields.

ilsox7
01-28-2007, 10:10 PM
My point would be that since you can't survive with a $60MM rotation, it's imperative to lock in the top guys if you want to stay a contender because you simply cannot rely on developing aces internally - pitching prospects are too variable. So you give Garland & Buehrle their $17/yr. Then you have the flexibility to add in a single $5-10M vet (either via trade with salary being picked up or in a deal like the recent one for Weaver). That leaves you relying on 2 of your current crop of 6-odd guys to come up in the ext 2-3 years and be solid starters. Voila - a $40M rotation that is capable of winning a title and is a far surer bet than what they appear to be relying on now.


I agree with the philosophy, but I just don't see Mark (or Jon) at this point as a true ace. Granted, I am one of the few around these parts that isn't a huge MB fan. I hope he pitches like a Cy Young Award candidate this year, but I just do not see it. I think Jon has a much better chance at being worth $17MM when his contract ends, but even that is a stretch in my mind.

Vernam
01-28-2007, 10:14 PM
You develop them within your own system. This is exactly why KW is stockpiling arms. You cannot carry a $100MM payroll (well above average) with a $60MM rotation and expect to be a contender. That is why it is imperative to develop quality pitching within the organization.And that applies just as well to position players, IMO. The pressure seems to be showing on KW because his strategy, especially in the long term, depends on a vibrant farm system. Letting Crede walk will only work if Fields lives up to expectations and after that, who are the stars in waiting?

They've been able to do well with reclamation projects like Dye and Contreras, but it's hard to keep repeating that magic. To stay competitive year in and year out, they'd better start producing better young talent of their own. Kenny has bought some time by acquiring Floyd, Danks, et al. But developing some infielders in the minors would take a lot of heat off. One reason he can't tie up too much money in the rotation is that he'll need the cash to fill everyday positions that sure aren't being filled from their minor-league system.

Vernam

ilsox7
01-28-2007, 10:16 PM
And that applies just as well to position players, IMO. The pressure seems to be showing on KW because his strategy, especially in the long term, depends on a vibrant farm system. Letting Crede walk will only work if Fields lives up to expectations and after that, who are the stars in waiting?

They've been able to do well with reclamation projects like Dye and Contreras, but it's hard to keep repeating that magic. To stay competitive year in and year out, they'd better start producing better young talent of their own. Kenny has bought some time by acquiring Floyd, Danks, et al. But developing some infielders in the minors would take a lot of heat off. One reason he can't tie up too much money in the rotation is that he'll need the cash to fill everyday positions that sure aren't being filled from their minor-league system.

Vernam

That's why I was happy to see him call out his amateur scouts this winter. They need to be better. But if I had my choices, I'd rather have a stockpile of young pitching talent than young position players. Obviously we want both, but the pitching is worth more.

Domeshot17
01-28-2007, 10:48 PM
This is why I love WSI (no sarcasm). As much as we agree to disagree on a lot, we are almost all 200% loyal. I remember about a month ago, I said these trades wouldn't be needed if we didnt suck at scouting and drafting, and really got ripped a new one. Kenny comes out and says the same thing, and we all thank him for finally seeing the flaw. I am glad he did call them out.I don't care if we don't pick in the top 10. Plenty of MLB Super Stars and Young Studs are 2nd, 5th, 12th round picks. We do a terrible job of signing anyone who is a tough sign, yet we tend to target these guys. I also think with the scouting comes the minor league staff not doing its job. The bottom line is, besides winning those ever important minor league games, their job is to get these kids from point A to Point B, the minors to the majors, and they haven't done it. And the ones who have seem to come up with major growing pains, and Coop or Walk have to fix them

Domeshot17
01-29-2007, 12:25 AM
For Anyone who missed it, Here is a recap of Buehlre's interview with Comcast Sports Net Tonight

(a) He said he and Kenny both apologized for what the Media created, and he, and his family, hold no Ill-Will towards Kenny.

(b) Basically said he 100% wants to be here for the rest of his career. Said he loves Chicago, and can't see himself on another team. He did say he didn't want contract talks lingering all season. If Kenny wants to get something done, he and his agent will be there, and will get it done. When asked to give a percentage on if he will be back or not, he said in his heart 100%. This is where he wants to be, he just got a house with his wife, and said it was really touching how many fans told him they want him to stay. He said if he has to leave, he understands that is business.

(c) He had several GREAT qoutes, I mean qoutes that make you want this guy more than any other player, but the one that stands out to me. "If it comes down to it, and I am not here in 2007, My heart will always be here in Chicago, this is where I want to be"