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View Full Version : C'mon We Need To Talk Leadoff


Jerksticks
01-24-2007, 07:39 PM
Let's assume the worst case scenario; that Pods comes back and sucks. What then? What are our viable options?

We know the following WILL NOT play leadoff for the CWS:
Konerko, Thome, Dye, Crede, AJ, Uribe, and Hall

Here is the list of all possible options, MLB ready or not:
Owens, Sweeney, Fields, Iguchi, Cintron, Erstad, Mack, Ozuna, Lopez, Terrero,and BA

Basically, Who ya got and are you confident?

OzzieBall2004
01-24-2007, 07:50 PM
Let's assume the worst case scenario; that Pods comes back and sucks. What then? What are our viable options?

We know the following WILL NOT play leadoff for the CWS:
Konerko, Thome, Dye, Crede, AJ, Uribe, and Hall

Here is the list of all possible options, MLB ready or not:
Owens, Sweeney, Fields, Iguchi, Cintron, Erstad, Mack, Ozuna, Lopez, Terrero,and BA

Basically, Who ya got and are you confident?

I want to say Ozuna, but where the hell do you play him? He scares me as much as anyone in the outfield, and assuming Uribe, Crede, and Iguchi all start off healthy there is nowhere to play him in the infield.

Erstad is too old and injury prone. I can't see that working.

Maybe Iguchi, but then we lose a great 2 hitter before the big bats come up. I guess if Pods isn't in good enough shape to leadoff on opening day we'll just have to hope for a great spring from one of the young guys.

Daver
01-24-2007, 07:53 PM
Bench Uribe and let Cintron lead off and play SS.

Frater Perdurabo
01-24-2007, 07:56 PM
In admittedly limited duty, Rob Mackowiak hit .290 with a .365 OBP in 2006. He doesn't have great speed, but he does get on base at a decent clip. I think he could leadoff against righties to start 2007, with Ozuna getting the ABs against lefties.

itsnotrequired
01-24-2007, 08:00 PM
In admittedly limited duty, Rob Mackowiak hit .290 with a .365 OBP in 2006. He doesn't have great speed, but he does get on base at a decent clip. I think he could leadoff against righties to start 2007, with Ozuna getting the ABs against lefties.

Ozuna leading off means he would be starting. Ozuna should not be starting unless absolutely necessary.

Scottiehaswheels
01-24-2007, 08:03 PM
Don't rule out Uribe leading off... just saying because we'll prolly see it at least once in ST

Frater Perdurabo
01-24-2007, 08:04 PM
Ozuna leading off means he would be starting. Ozuna should not be starting unless absolutely necessary.

Hey, the options aren't great in left field and at leadoff, so sometimes we have to make lemonade. Ozuna isn't very good defensively, but he's the only right-handed backup OF on the Sox roster. If he's only starting against lefties, after that opposing lefty starter gets shelled, Erstad can pinch hit and bring better defense into left field.

:)

itsnotrequired
01-24-2007, 08:06 PM
Don't rule out Uribe leading off... just saying because we'll prolly see it at least once in ST

:mg:

SluggersAway
01-24-2007, 08:13 PM
Jermaine Dye would be fun to see leadoff.

AJ Hellraiser
01-24-2007, 08:14 PM
I vote for Owens.. I know he's not "ML ready" but give him a shot... I feel, at worse, he gets on base as often as Pods did last year.. to his advantage, his blazing speed allows him the opportunity to beat out bunts and slap hits to the left side of the infield.. if he gets on he can run at any time.. I think he MUST get a serious look in spring training... bottom line is that this team needs some speed at the top.. otherwise, we are a very slow station-to-station team yet again...

OzzieBall2004
01-24-2007, 08:15 PM
Bench Uribe and let Cintron lead off and play SS.

I contemplated saying that, but feared this would turn into a thread about how crucial Juan's defense is to our success.

OzzieBall2004
01-24-2007, 08:18 PM
Don't rule out Uribe leading off... just saying because we'll prolly see it at least once in ST

Uribe can lead off as much as he wants in ST, but if he's at the top of the lineup once when April rolls around I'm putting the White Sox managerial position on Monster.com.

caulfield12
01-24-2007, 08:21 PM
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/stats?playerId=4814

Cintron=.318 career OBP and average defense, average arm. Not a particularly disciplined or patient hitter, and not a particularly strong stolen base threat.

I think I would rather throw BA out there at leadoff and pray he puts it all together and has a Rowand 2004 season offensively with lots of doubles.

Daver
01-24-2007, 08:21 PM
I contemplated saying that, but feared this would turn into a thread about how crucial Juan's defense is to our success.

Cintron could start at SS for more than a few MLB teams, he's not a liability.

thedudeabides
01-24-2007, 08:27 PM
Bench Uribe and let Cintron lead off and play SS.

I don't discount this thought. I think more than anything they'll find the leadoff hitter, like many things, out of competition this spring. This will be a very meaningful spring training. There will be competition for the of, leadoff spot, bullpen, and fifth starters role. I like the element of competition. It was something I think we were missing last year.

Brian26
01-24-2007, 08:29 PM
People are so obsessed with the leadoff hitter needing to be a speedster. Owens and Ozuna fit the bill, but they really aren't everyday mlb players -at least not yet in regards to Owens.

I like Daver's Cintron idea. I'm also comfortable with Iguchi leading off for awhile. I really don't think this is going to seem like much of a problem once the season starts. The key will be for the 8th and 9th batters to be on base enough to let Iguchi get some rbi opportunities later in the game.

thedudeabides
01-24-2007, 08:30 PM
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/stats?playerId=4814

Cintron=.318 career OBP and average defense, average arm. Not a particularly disciplined or patient hitter, and not a particularly strong stolen base threat.

I think I would rather throw BA out there at leadoff and pray he puts it all together and has a Rowand 2004 season offensively with lots of doubles.

If you want to throw stats out there, then throw BA's obp if your going to suggest he lead off.

Jjav829
01-24-2007, 08:35 PM
Barring someone unexpected having a great Spring Training, if Pods is unable to go on Opening Day, I think we're looking at an Erstad/Ozuna platoon in left field. That's not too bad, though Ozuna in left is an adventure. In Erstad's last two healthy seasons, he's posted OBP's of .337 and .370 against righties. It would be nice to see him perform more toward the 2004 level against righties, but if he's closer to .337, that's passable in a platoon while we wait for Pods to get healthy.

OzzieBall2004
01-24-2007, 08:37 PM
Cintron could start at SS for more than a few MLB teams, he's not a liability.

There are also more than a few starting MLB shortstops I wouldn't want starting for us, so that argument doesn't do anything for me.

He may not be a liability, but he's still a defensive downgrade.

caulfield12
01-24-2007, 08:39 PM
If you want to throw stats out there, then throw BA's obp if your going to suggest he lead off.

If you base Brian Anderson's future career on one season, then I won't even bother having a discussion with you. It would be the same as me saying he would be an All-Star based on his results in AA and AAA.

Cintron's career spans 5-6 years of results in the majors. Anderson has 1/2 season of inconsistent PT.

You can't possibly extrapolate from that...Erstad is more likely to be the leadoff hitter than Cintron. If we bench Juan, we have $5 million wasted in the payroll. Neither Uribe nor Cintron is the long-term solution...but Cintron's just not quite good enough to be an everyday player. I wish he was clearly better than Uribe, we need an upgrade at this position.

Grzegorz
01-24-2007, 08:46 PM
Don't rule out Uribe leading off...

I just did...

Cintron, Owens, Erstad... All before Iguchi...

thedudeabides
01-24-2007, 08:53 PM
If you base Brian Anderson's future career on one season, then I won't even bother having a discussion with you. It would be the same as me saying he would be an All-Star based on his results in AA and AAA.

Cintron's career spans 5-6 years of results in the majors. Anderson has 1/2 season of inconsistent PT.

You can't possibly extrapolate from that...Erstad is more likely to be the leadoff hitter than Cintron. If we bench Juan, we have $5 million wasted in the payroll. Neither Uribe nor Cintron is the long-term solution...but Cintron's just not quite good enough to be an everyday player. I wish he was clearly better than Uribe, we need an upgrade at this position.

Take it easy, I like BA. Cintron leading off is not ideal. But, you said that you would rather see BA than Alex. I wouldn't.

Domeshot17
01-24-2007, 09:08 PM
of the 25 men on the roster, Uribe would be the 25th man (well, last position player) I would want leading off. We might as well just spot the other team an out every time he comes up to hit. If you can't have speed, you go with the guy who gives you the highest OBP, which would be someone like Erstad, Mackowiak, MAAAYBBBBEEEEEEEEEEE AJ. I would start Cintron over Uribe right now anyway. I think Uribe's D is Over rated (I love the guy's catch in the world series, but thats over). He is LAZY in the field and on the bases. If Konerko wasn't one of the top 1b at digging balls out of the dirt, Uribe would have more errors. Everytime he lets the ball go you have to hold your breath. He 1 hands pop ups, if he wasn't Ozzie's boy his lack of effort would have gotten him benched for a long stint a while ago.

SluggersAway
01-24-2007, 09:10 PM
Dye leads off and Iguchi in his old spot.

Let the runs pour down like hail in a west Texas winter!

itsnotrequired
01-24-2007, 09:16 PM
Hey, the options aren't great in left field and at leadoff, so sometimes we have to make lemonade. Ozuna isn't very good defensively, but he's the only right-handed backup OF on the Sox roster. If he's only starting against lefties, after that opposing lefty starter gets shelled, Erstad can pinch hit and bring better defense into left field.

:)

I hear what you're saying but man, do I dread seeing Ozuna out in left. But I guess I'd rather drink sour lemonade that a jar of poison. If it is only for the time that Pods is recovering, then I guess it wouldn't be that bad. I like the Cintron over Uribe plan as well.

AJ Hellraiser
01-24-2007, 09:23 PM
OK... everyone take a deep breath here... I like Cintron as much as the next guy..... he is a very good bench player just like Ozuna and Mack... but suggesting Cintron should leadoff and be our starting SS is ridiculous and absurd... there is a reason a 28-year-old player hasn't been a starting SS in the big leagues for more than 2 seasons... there's a reason the ARIZONA DIAMONDBACKS gave up on him for a bullpen pitcher that will never succeed in the big leagues and I can only think of a handfull of teams he'd be the everyday starter on right at the moment....

itsnotrequired
01-24-2007, 09:37 PM
OK... everyone take a deep breath here... I like Cintron as much as the next guy..... he is a very good bench player just like Ozuna and Mack... but suggesting Cintron should leadoff and be our starting SS is ridiculous and absurd... there is a reason a 28-year-old player hasn't been a starting SS in the big leagues for more than 2 seasons... there's a reason the ARIZONA DIAMONDBACKS gave up on him for a bullpen pitcher that will never succeed in the big leagues and I can only think of a handfull of teams he'd be the everyday starter on right at the moment....

I'm more comfortable with Cintron leading off and playing shortstop than I am with Ozuna leading off and playing left. It would depend on the pitcher and I could deal with Ozuna filling the role against lefties but if there is a righty on the mound, Cintron should get the start.

soxinem1
01-24-2007, 09:40 PM
Cintron could start at SS for more than a few MLB teams, he's not a liability.

I see no problem with this. In fact, I think Uribe was a better player in 2004 that he has been since then. When he had to hustle for playing time, he produced, and played well at 2B, SS, and 3B.

Why were so many people panicking when Uribe said he might miss the season? Why is Cintron supposedly nothing better than a back up? His track record as a regular was certainly better than Uribe's in their pre-Sox careers.

And these ideas of making the reserves and rookies into lead-off hitters are insane. Why do you think they are reserves, because we have too many regulars for each position? It's because they will lose their effectivness,and subsequently their value, if they are forced to play extended periods of time. And making the rookies like Fields play both out of position and out of order will be counter-productive.

Cintron handles the bat better, makes the routine plays, and added a spark when he played last year.

Let Cintron start and try him at lead off. Then let Uribe earn his playing time like he had to in 2004. That could make us more solid all around.

SluggersAway
01-24-2007, 09:45 PM
Come on, we wasted too many outs with a sub par leadoff player last year, lets put a guy in there with a big bat and an above avg. obp.

Let everyone else step up and bring him home like I know our offense is capable of.

caulfield12
01-24-2007, 10:01 PM
Why would Cintron be a better leadoff hitter than Erstad?

I'm not getting this how Cintron suddenly improved due to Juan's legal troubles, being a little out of shape and his subpar 2006.

It still doesn't make Alex a better option. Ozzie has said how many times he doesn't view Cintron as a regular???

JB98
01-24-2007, 10:22 PM
If Pods isn't healthy, Erstad leads off. I won't entertain the idea of BA leading off. I'm not sure if I want him batting ninth. Brian needs to show me something in spring training.

Domeshot17
01-25-2007, 12:52 AM
Why would Cintron be a better leadoff hitter than Erstad?

I'm not getting this how Cintron suddenly improved due to Juan's legal troubles, being a little out of shape and his subpar 2006.

It still doesn't make Alex a better option. Ozzie has said how many times he doesn't view Cintron as a regular???


I really wouldn't call Uribe's 2006 subpar, maybe a little, but for the most part he was par for the course. Uribe is just not a quality baseball player. The only thing keeping his career average above .255 was a good half year in CO (hit .300) an his one decent year for us (hit .282). other than that he is about a .250 hitter with a .290 OBP and a .420 slugging. HE HAS A CAREER 138 to 490 BB:K ratio in his career. BRIAN ANDERSON HAD A HIGHER OBP THEN URIBE. But if this was just a subpar season, Anderson had his .295 would have been on the course with Uribe and his career .297 obp.

Kenny made a mistake giving Uribe his deal. He should be nothing more then a super sub.

IndianWhiteSox
01-25-2007, 12:58 AM
I Agree with Daver on Cintron having the chance to be the starting SS, because let's face it, Uribe was in Ozzie's doghouse for half the season last year so we know that you can't pencil him in at SS for sure. Cintron has had success leading off in AZ, the reason why the D-Backs made the deal is because maybe they thought that Bajenaru could be a diamond in the rough, but he wasn't. So just saying, don't rule out Cintron being the opening day SS.

getonbckthr
01-25-2007, 01:34 AM
Wouldn't Eric Young been a better 4th OF option than Erstad?

OzzieBall2004
01-25-2007, 01:43 AM
I really wouldn't call Uribe's 2006 subpar, maybe a little, but for the most part he was par for the course. Uribe is just not a quality baseball player. The only thing keeping his career average above .255 was a good half year in CO (hit .300) an his one decent year for us (hit .282). other than that he is about a .250 hitter with a .290 OBP and a .420 slugging. HE HAS A CAREER 138 to 490 BB:K ratio in his career. BRIAN ANDERSON HAD A HIGHER OBP THEN URIBE. But if this was just a subpar season, Anderson had his .295 would have been on the course with Uribe and his career .297 obp.

Kenny made a mistake giving Uribe his deal. He should be nothing more then a super sub.

I love how quickly people forget the importance of defense.

Who helped us throughout the 2005 season with spectacular defense, and ultimately made a great play on final out in the World Series, and an even better on right before that? On top of that, he's also capable of 20-25 HR's. I realize his avg and obp may be subpar, but that's why he hits low in the order. Say what you want, but's he's not friggin' Royce Clayton though. I'm fairly certain he would start over more shortstops in MLB than he'd backup.

Additionally, how many losses last year can you blame on poor play in CF by Mackowiak?

Defense might not win championships in baseball, but it can really do a good job of losing them when it sucks.

OzzieBall2004
01-25-2007, 02:00 AM
If you base Brian Anderson's future career on one season, then I won't even bother having a discussion with you. It would be the same as me saying he would be an All-Star based on his results in AA and AAA.

Cintron's career spans 5-6 years of results in the majors. Anderson has 1/2 season of inconsistent PT.



Going along with what you said about BA, he also swung the bat great in July and August. He hit .225 last year....to put that in perspective, Konerko and Crede both have had seasons where they hit in the .230's in the last 3 years.

I see BA's career taking a similar path as Credes has....he'll prove our fans wrong and win them over.

Grzegorz
01-25-2007, 04:35 AM
Wouldn't Eric Young been a better 4th OF option than Erstad?

IMO no; Erstad offers protection at two exposed positions: first base and the outfield.

Lillian
01-25-2007, 07:16 AM
I posted these comments under another thread, but they are probably more appropriate here.
The leading candidate for Lead off spot is likely to be Ozuna. Of course Pablo looked a little lost initially, when he was asked to play out of position in left field. However, since then he has improved enough to not be a major liability on defense. We should all recognize that his speed helps compensate for his inexperience in getting good jumps. He is much faster than your typical left fielder.
Offensively, Pablo has always been able to hit, and once on base, he is the only true base stealing threat the Sox have, now that Pods will be out of the lineup.

We all better get used to the idea, because knowing how Ozzie loves Pablo, I would bet that he will be in Left, until Pods returns, unless of course he does poorly. One of Ozzie's highest priorities was to improve team speed. With Pods out, the only way for the Sox to even maintain the same speed they had last year, is for Pablo to play, and likely lead off.

It wouldn't surprise me if the odd man out here will be Anderson. If Erstad is healthy, and plays well in center, Brian is probably going to be a late innings, defensive replacement in Left. You have to assume that Erstad is ahead of Brian, on the Depth Chart for Center.
Moreover, I think it is likely that Erstad was promised a chance to get regular playing time, in order to sign. I doubt that he signed to be Brian's back up.

The only other way for Erstad to get regular playing time, would be for him to play left, and leave Brian in Center. However, for that to happen, Erstad would have to be able to lead off, and I doubt that he is capable of being a base stealing threat, at this stage in his career, with his history of leg injuries. If you take the base stealing factor out of the equation, his on base percentage is not high enough to justify his leading off.

Pablo is the logical choice, and Center should be Erstad's position to lose. If Anderson is going to take his place, shouldn't he have to earn it?

Madvora
01-25-2007, 07:52 AM
If we're going to start the season without Podsednik, then I see our 1-2 punch being...

Erstad
IguchiIf there's a question about who's going to lead off on a team, then I think the job is likely to go to a person who has done it regularly in the past. Nevermind the basestealing threat ideas. I'm sure it's Erstad's job and he will play LF. Ozuna would be his replacement both in LF and at the top of the order on Ertad's days off.
(Also, this is assuming that Anderson will still be out there in CF and batting 9th.)

RowanDye
01-25-2007, 09:05 AM
And these ideas of making the reserves and rookies into lead-off hitters are insane. Why do you think they are reserves, because we have too many regulars for each position? It's because they will lose their effectivness,and subsequently their value, if they are forced to play extended periods of time.

Let Cintron start and try him at lead off.

:?: Last time I checked the depth chart (link (http://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/team/depth_chart/index.jsp?c_id=cws)), Alex Cintron IS a backup/reserve. I don't think Alex would do very well leading off. As you say "reserves...will lose their effectiveness , and subsequently their value, if they are force to play extended periods of time." Alex's career numbers are buoyed by his amazing 2003 season. Since then, if given ~125 AB it looks like his OBP would be more like .300 and he would provide significantly less production than Uribe with a weaker glove. No thanks.

tstrike2000
01-25-2007, 09:09 AM
Bench Uribe and let Cintron lead off and play SS.

I actually agree with Daver for a change. :smile:

IndianWhiteSox
01-25-2007, 11:22 AM
Joe Crede

maurice
01-25-2007, 12:51 PM
Let's assume the worst case scenario; that Pods comes back and sucks. What then? What are our viable options?

Well, it's gonna be Ozuna against lefties. That leaves some combination of Podsednik, Erstad, Mackowiak, Owens, and maybe Sweeney against righties. If, for some reason, none of these guys are able to handle their part of the platoon, then KW makes a mid-season trade.

champagne030
01-25-2007, 01:18 PM
Wouldn't Eric Young been a better 4th OF option than Erstad?

Who's the backup in CF? Sure as heck isn't Young.

drewcifer
01-25-2007, 01:20 PM
Bench Uribe and let Cintron lead off and play SS.

Exactly my thoughts.

Domeshot17
01-25-2007, 01:23 PM
I love how quickly people forget the importance of defense.

Who helped us throughout the 2005 season with spectacular defense, and ultimately made a great play on final out in the World Series, and an even better on right before that? On top of that, he's also capable of 20-25 HR's. I realize his avg and obp may be subpar, but that's why he hits low in the order. Say what you want, but's he's not friggin' Royce Clayton though. I'm fairly certain he would start over more shortstops in MLB than he'd backup.

Additionally, how many losses last year can you blame on poor play in CF by Mackowiak?

Defense might not win championships in baseball, but it can really do a good job of losing them when it sucks.

Did you watch Uribe play defense last year? What his ability to throw hard gave him, his lack of effort and inability to use that throwing power accurately hurt him. He wasn't a liability out there, but he wasn't playing anywhere near gold glove defense. If Uribe doesn't make that diving catch in the world series he would not have half the support he does.

GEOFF BLUM HIT A BIG HOME RUN FOR US, BUT I WOULDN'T BRING HIM BACK TO PLAY LF or 3B. WILLIE HARRIS SCORED THE GAME WINNING RUN, DON'T WANT HIM BACK EITHER.

My point is, the more we live in the past the more it hurts us. We didn't do it for Cotts or Politte or Hermanson, its time to stop with Uribe. I don't care if he hits 20-25 home runs, that isnt his job. Hitting lower in the order, his job is to turn the lineup over, get on base, move runners along, move himself along, situational hit. Not swing for the fences, strike out 4 times before he draws a walk, 10 times before he hits a home run.

Craig Grebeck
01-25-2007, 01:39 PM
I don't understand the rationale of having Erstad leadoff.

drewcifer
01-25-2007, 01:53 PM
I don't understand the rationale of having Erstad leadoff.

95 ABs last year, ankle surgery, repeated trips to the DL over his wheels, 36 bags stolen in the last 4 years, less than 40 walks per season average over his career.... Oh, and he's going to be 33.

What's not to understand?

WhiteSox5187
01-25-2007, 03:38 PM
Here is my humblest of opinions. I don't think BA should bat leadoff because he hasn't shown me a whole lot offensively. He's fine in the nine hole because anything you get out of that slot is a bonus. I think one day he will be a very good hitter, but I just don't see him ever being the kind of guy who leads off. I see him being a potential five or six hitter.

Someone suggested Uribe. No.

Cintron? Tempting, very tempting. He did come through for us a lot last year, but as I recall he was usually at the bottom of the order (he probably filled in for Iguchi sometimes too hitting in the two hole) and I think it is best he remains at the bottom of the order. I think Cintron could do quite well as our starting shortstop because at times Uribe just absolutely dogged it out there last year. So, yea Cintron would be okay. But ideally Cintron stays on the bench and far away from the leadoff spot. And if Uribe continues to dog it at short this year, Cintron will be our starter.

Erstad? Well, I don't know. He has done it in the past, but he's awfully banged up right now and fairly old. I'd say put him in there in ST and see what he can do. But I'm not willing to give him that spot right away. He has to earn it. And to be honest, I dont' think he will.

Ozuna? He has a lot of speed and had a .365 OBP last year (I know, I know, it was only 78 games)...not too shabby. But he has a career .329 OBP and has never played more than eighty games. This also begs the question, where do you put him? He looked lost in LF last year, and is a trained second baseman, not an outfielder. That being said though, you can train a guy to be a descent OF and I don't recall any play with Ozuna costing us a game (as Mackowiak did).

So what do I forsee? I see an Ozuna-Erstad-Anderson platoon in the outfield. Ozuna will play left, but days when he doesn't Erstad will and Erstad will play center against lefties with Ozuna in left. I see Ozuna and Erstad taking turns at leadoff (maybe throw in Sweeney there too) until Pods is healthy. If Pods sucks again, I think we're in trouble at leadoff because I don't see that platoon doing well for an extended period of time and I dont' see it taking us to the playoffs.

There it is. Tear it apart.

Jerksticks
01-25-2007, 03:59 PM
Ladies n Gentlemen, Boys n Girls:

2007 will be looked back upon as "The Year of The Sweeney".

Sweeney will have a kick ass ST and will win the LF, leadoff spot hands down. I just got a feeling, but I like it. He's gonna be our first young kid superstar since Frank.

A. Cavatica
01-26-2007, 12:06 AM
Plan A.

Trade for Michael Young.

Plan B.

Open competition for LF platoon in spring training. Fields/Ozuna against LHP, Podsednik/Erstad/Mackowiak/Sweeney against RHP.

Open competition at SS between Uribe and Cintron, with Cintron given the benefit of the doubt.

Give Anderson a little more time to sort things out in CF.

LF leads off unless he's a rookie.

Plan C.

Panic.

Navarro's Talent
01-26-2007, 12:27 AM
This year's ST is going to be one of the most interesting ones ever for the White Sox, that's for sure.

Of all the guys mentioned, I think Cintron would be the best all-around player to choose. I think Ozuna would be the better leadoff hitter, but his defense is too weak. If Cintron is starting, though, it makes it really hard to justify paying Uribe the millions owed to him. So, I won't count Ozuna out just yet. I wouldn't be surprised if Gullien had Ozuna catching plenty of flyballs come ST.

Erstad needs to prove he can stay healthy before I even think about wanting him to leadoff. He's an older guy now, so I don't have a lot of faith that he'll do a good job. I don't think Brian Anderson will work as a leadoff hitter. He doesn't steal as many bases as he should, and I think he needs more experience. Experience is the main reason I think Jerry Owens and Ryan Sweeny won't get the job. Of course, I could be wrong (wouldn't be the first time), but I think Ozzie's going to want a veteran hitting in one of the most important parts of any lineup.

ondafarm
01-26-2007, 12:41 AM
I think one thing a lot of people don't realize about the lead-off hitter is that his job is really to set the table for the power guys. The Sox had good power last year and bad lead-off hitting. Your lead-off hitter has to be a disruptor on the basepaths. Every thought that the pitcher has about, "Is he going now?" means that a fastball with not that much on it is much more likely.

Your lead-off guy starts multi-run rallies and when you win games by one run, it is he that is most ofetn responsible for scoring that run.

That said:

Cintron? Maybe okay defense, but not a lead-off guy.
Ozuna? Black hole on defense.
Iguchi? Maybe but not much of a disruptor.
Erstad? Maybe, especially in a platoon type system.
Pods? Eventually, hopefully.
Sweeney? Big maybe.
Anderson? Has a shot in ST, but I don't think he's the type.
Uribe. No.
Crede, Fields, PK, JT, JD, AJ, Hall. No.

ChiTownTrojan
01-26-2007, 01:56 AM
The only prototypical leadoff guy is Ozuna, but I don't think (and I doubt Ozzie thinks) he's good enough to start every day. Not because of his defense (which got better throughout the year and should be better in 07), but because I doubt he'll keep up a good OBP if he's gotta go up against RHP's all the time. So it'll be a platoon with Ozuna against LHP. For the other "half" of the platoon, it'll be either Erstad or Mack, or (most likely) a split between the two.

Ozzie has said many times that the team is much better with Cintron coming off the bench, so I don't see that one happening.

IndianWhiteSox
01-26-2007, 03:55 AM
Ladies n Gentlemen, Boys n Girls:

2007 will be looked back upon as "The Year of The Sweeney".

Sweeney will have a kick ass ST and will win the LF, leadoff spot hands down. I just got a feeling, but I like it. He's gonna be our first young kid superstar since Frank.

If this happens, we're talking about the best defensive OF in quite some time and a Rookie of the Year candidate.

Jerksticks
01-26-2007, 08:51 AM
If this happens, we're talking about the best defensive OF in quite some time and a Rookie of the Year candidate.

Yes. I mean isn't our turn to pump out a really awesome young guy? Think about it. Twins did a Johan, Liriano, Mauer etc. Royals are brimming with young studs. Same with Cleveland and Detroit. Us? Bobby Jenks for sure, but no position player in a long time.

tick53
01-26-2007, 11:49 AM
Bench Uribe and let Cintron lead off and play SS.\

I agree for a couple reasons.

itsnotrequired
01-26-2007, 11:51 AM
I agree for a couple reasons.

Will you be sharing these reasons or is it top-secret?:redneck

IndianWhiteSox
01-26-2007, 12:07 PM
Yes. I mean isn't our turn to pump out a really awesome young guy? Think about it. Twins did a Johan, Liriano, Mauer etc. Royals are brimming with young studs. Same with Cleveland and Detroit. Us? Bobby Jenks for sure, but no position player in a long time.

Sure I guess, but the question really is, have we had the prospect lately that has warranted that.

Oh, well I think that Brian Anderson will the next 40/40 guy in baseball for the next 5 years and in the midst of that Josh Fields will be the next Ted Williams hitting .400 in a season and having a season where he goes 75/45 as Sweeney becomes the first 50/50 guy in the history of baseball. Meanwhile, Andy Sisco, Gavin Floyd, and Jon Danks all win 30 games in a season and Sisco doing that 3 times while Floyd and Danks twice each, as the 2009-2011 White Sox become the only team in the history of baseball to win 120+ games in a season going 121-41 and repeating the 2 more times in a row leading up to the first 11-0 post-season run in the history of baseball not once, not twice but three times. After that Fields breaks the all-time HR record and Danks becomes the all-time leader in wins with 600. Anderson and Sweeney become the 1st members in the 700/700 club. All those players listed become the only players to ever be voted unanimously into the Hall of Fame in 2025 by the Writer's committee.

Hey! A kid can dream while puffing up his teams prospects right? :cool:

chaotic8512
01-26-2007, 12:13 PM
Sure I guess, but the question really is, have we had the prospect lately that has warranted that.

Oh, well I think that Brian Anderson will the next 40/40 guy in baseball for the next 5 years and in the midst of that Josh Fields will be the next Ted Williams hitting .400 in a season and having a season where he goes 75/45 as Sweeney becomes the first 50/50 guy in the history of baseball. Meanwhile, Andy Sisco, Gavin Floyd, and Jon Danks all win 30 games in a season and Sisco doing that 3 times while Floyd and Danks twice each, as the 2009-2011 White Sox become the only team in the history of baseball to win 120+ games in a season going 121-41 and repeating the 2 more times in a row leading up to the first 11-0 post-season run in the history of baseball not once, not twice but three times. After that Fields breaks the all-time HR record and Danks becomes the all-time leader in wins with 600. Anderson and Sweeney become the 1st members in the 700/700 club. All those players listed become the only players to ever be voted unanimously into the Hall of Fame in 2025 by the Writer's committee.

Hey! A kid can dream while puffing up his teams prospects right? :cool:


You, sir, need to cut back a bit on the black and white Kool-Aid. Or let me have some of whatever you're smokin'. :redneck
Love the enthusiasm though. :bandance:

jabrch
01-26-2007, 01:05 PM
Wouldn't Eric Young been a better 4th OF option than Erstad?

He was AWFUL last year on both sides of the ball. He's 40 years old now. EY is toast.

IndianWhiteSox
01-26-2007, 01:36 PM
You, sir, need to cut back a bit on the black and white Kool-Aid. Or let me have some of whatever you're smokin'. :redneck
Love the enthusiasm though. :bandance:

I was just going with the previous post but hey if you really want anything..............

Jerome
01-26-2007, 02:27 PM
I don't understand the rationale of having Erstad leadoff.

I think the clear choice is Iguchi. He's simply a better player than Uribe, Cintron, Erstad and all the other crap choices mentioned in this thread.

Of course, the only hang-up with Iguchi leading off is that Ozzie loves him in the 2 spot. If Brian Anderson becomes competent offensively could we try him at #2? And I know it's a little :rolleyes: :rolleyes: but how about AJ at #2? He's not a huge power guy but a pretty smart hitter I would say. I don't know I'm just throwing stuff out there.

Yea so basically if Podsednik sucks this year, which I would not be suprised if he did, we're ****ed

Jerksticks
01-26-2007, 02:35 PM
I know. We'll just platoon Thome and Konerko in the leadoff spot based on the pitcher.

Frater Perdurabo
01-26-2007, 03:41 PM
Until Pods returns, I still think that Mackowiak could do a decent job leading off and playing left field against RHP (with Ozuna playing left and leading off against RHP). Erstad could be a competent late-inning pinch hitter and defensive replacement in left.

santo=dorf
01-26-2007, 04:36 PM
Leadoff is a spot in the lineup, not a position. A guy batting first in the lineup is guaranteed to be up to bat with no outs and nobody on only once per game.

And to those who think leadoff of guys with high OBP but little speed aren't good or shouldn't be considered leadoff hitters, take a look at the quote from our own Rick Hahn.
While it's not traditional, we are just looking for someone to get on base. If you can be disruptive on the basepaths like Pods is when healthy, thats a bonus, but just get on base, thats what we are looking for."

I'm glad the Sox get it.

ChiTownTrojan
01-26-2007, 08:28 PM
Leadoff is a spot in the lineup, not a position. A guy batting first in the lineup is guaranteed to be up to bat with no outs and nobody on only once per game.

And to those who think leadoff of guys with high OBP but little speed aren't good or shouldn't be considered leadoff hitters, take a look at the quote from our own Rick Hahn.

I'm glad the Sox get it.
Even though the leadoff guy only is guaranteed to come up first in the inning only once a game, he is still two spots in front of our big boppers EVERY time he's up there. So his job every time is to get on base and get in scoring position so those guys can drive him in. While speed isn't required to do this, it certainly helps to have a guy who can steal his way to second and distract the pitcher as well.

ChiTownTrojan
01-26-2007, 08:36 PM
Until Pods returns, I still think that Mackowiak could do a decent job leading off and playing left field against RHP (with Ozuna playing left and leading off against RHP). Erstad could be a competent late-inning pinch hitter and defensive replacement in left.
I think this is the most likely scenario. But I also think Erstad will get some starts in LF, leaving him as the favorite for the leadoff spot.

There will also be some days where Erstad is in the lineup (either in LF, CF, or 1B) at the same time that Mack or Ozuna is in there (to give one of the regulars some rest). If that's the case, I think either Mack or Ozuna will lead off, and Erstad will hit second. That lets Iguchi move down in the order into a more power-hitting position, to make up for the lost power from whoever is sitting (e.g., Crede, Konerko, or Dye).

BUMMER
02-01-2007, 09:21 AM
Two thoughts on lead-off spot:

1) I always wondered if thinking outside the box and not using a traditional (ie, speedster) lead-off man would be possible or if any manager would be crazy enough to try it. The lead-off man only is assured of leading off any inning in the first inning, right? After that, depending how it goes, Konerko, Thome, AJ, Crede, - any one in the lineup could lead-off in the 2nd thru 9th innings. So just start the game off with your best hitter (Konerko?, Dye?...) and let the line-up flow from that point. Over the course of a season, your best hitters will get "x" amount of more at-bats and presumably, more output. Don't know if I explained it right, but why not have the best hitters getting the most at-bats? They lead-off many innings throughout the year anyway....crazy (maybe stupid) - but there may be something to this. I wonder what guys like PK / Dye/ Thome hit when they lead-off an inning?

2) Other than Dye in right - the other OF spots are all up-in-the-air. Pods, BA, Erstad, Mackowiak, Ozuna, Sweeney, Owens,.........How about shortening the list a little and obtain the now-available Ichiro from Seattle? Instant lead-off man - instant Gold-Glove defense - ....

IndianWhiteSox
02-01-2007, 10:01 AM
:
How about shortening the list a little and obtain the now-available Ichiro from Seattle? Instant lead-off man - instant Gold-Glove defense - ....

The problem with that is, the M's will probably raid our farm system in that trade or ask for too much;however, he's a free agent at the end of next year so who knows?

caulfield12
02-01-2007, 10:01 AM
Two thoughts on lead-off spot:

1) I always wondered if thinking outside the box and not using a traditional (ie, speedster) lead-off man would be possible or if any manager would be crazy enough to try it. The lead-off man only is assured of leading off any inning in the first inning, right? After that, depending how it goes, Konerko, Thome, AJ, Crede, - any one in the lineup could lead-off in the 2nd thru 9th innings. So just start the game off with your best hitter (Konerko?, Dye?...) and let the line-up flow from that point. Over the course of a season, your best hitters will get "x" amount of more at-bats and presumably, more output. Don't know if I explained it right, but why not have the best hitters getting the most at-bats? They lead-off many innings throughout the year anyway....crazy (maybe stupid) - but there may be something to this. I wonder what guys like PK / Dye/ Thome hit when they lead-off an inning?

2) Other than Dye in right - the other OF spots are all up-in-the-air. Pods, BA, Erstad, Mackowiak, Ozuna, Sweeney, Owens,.........How about shortening the list a little and obtain the now-available Ichiro from Seattle? Instant lead-off man - instant Gold-Glove defense - ....

What do we have to trade that Seattle would want besides all of the young pitching we just acquired, that we'll now need in 08/09/10?

Crede...they have Beltre already.

Dye? Well, that doesn't really make the outfield much better, and our payroll just went up another $6-7 million. We also can't trade another starter, like Vazquez or Buehrle, at this point, without decimating the rotation.

If Dye is gone, you have to consider Ichiro next year if he's available. But trading for him doesn't make much sense with where our depth chart sits right now. Plus, we've robbed them in the Garcia and Thornton deals, they might be a little gun-shy to make another trade with KW.

Jerome
02-01-2007, 01:31 PM
what has cintron done to show to anyone that he would be a decent leadoff hitter?

OTOH I would rather him than Uribe and Pablo:(:

ondafarm
02-01-2007, 10:18 PM
. . . If that's the case, I think either Mack or Ozuna will lead off, and Erstad will hit second. That lets Iguchi move down in the order into a more power-hitting position, to make up for the lost power from whoever is sitting (e.g., Crede, Konerko, or Dye).

I don't think Iguchi is a guy I would move around a lot. It'd goof up his swing. While your proposal might be okay if Iguchi was sitting, I would not reccomend it otherwise.

brewcrew/chisox
02-02-2007, 09:13 AM
If you base Brian Anderson's future career on one season, then I won't even bother having a discussion with you. It would be the same as me saying he would be an All-Star based on his results in AA and AAA.

Caulfield, while it would indeed be silly to make ALL-Star projections based on AA and AAA numbers, there are trends in a player's stats that do not change drastically from the minors to the majors: OBP, strikeouts, and Walks to name a few (all very important numbers for a leadoff hitter). If you check BA's numbers from last year and his time spent in the minors, I don't think you want him leading off for the White Sox in 2007.

Lip Man 1
02-02-2007, 09:46 AM
For what it's worth Roland Hemond told me that he felt Darrin Erstad should do fine as the lead off man until Podsednik returns.

Lip

Juice16
02-02-2007, 11:11 AM
C'mon guys COME ON!!!

Craig Grebeck
02-02-2007, 12:56 PM
For what it's worth Roland Hemond told me that he felt Darrin Erstad should do fine as the lead off man until Podsednik returns.

Lip
That's nice LIP. But, FWIW, his stats have been HORRIBLE for the last six seasons. There isn't much upside to an injury prone 33 year old.

Jurr
02-02-2007, 01:04 PM
That's nice LIP. But, FWIW, his stats have been HORRIBLE for the last six seasons. There isn't much upside to an injury prone 33 year old.
Though a little younger, that's exactly what they said about Dye.

Craig Grebeck
02-02-2007, 03:16 PM
Though a little younger, that's exactly what they said about Dye.
Dye is a good baseball player, though. In the five seasons leading up to his signing with the White Sox he had been a productive player. He had the one horrible short season, but he was adequate in an extreme pitcher's park. Erstad hasn't even been servicable for quite some time now, and is a lot more injury plagued than Dye.

SBSoxFan
02-02-2007, 03:22 PM
Dye is a good baseball player, though. In the five seasons leading up to his signing with the White Sox he had been a productive player. He had the one horrible short season, but he was adequate in an extreme pitcher's park. Erstad hasn't even been servicable for quite some time now, and is a lot more injury plagued than Dye.

I hope Erstad took up yoga this off-season!

BUMMER
02-04-2007, 08:32 AM
The problem with that is, the M's will probably raid our farm system in that trade or ask for too much;however, he's a free agent at the end of next year so who knows?
The Sox now have about 8 or 9 stockpiled pitchers plus about 7 or 8 million dollars leftover (Garcia's + Cotts money minus whatever Erstad, Sisco, and T Hall got). Plus we keep mentioning about 6 players competing for LF and CF. (Has to be a deal in there somewhere using one or two of them). I love players like J Dye and J Crede, but the Sox have already been weighing their $ against other options - what'll they decide when the contracts are actually up? Dye won't be given Magglio money and Crede won't be given Rolen money - that's when we'll see Sweeney & Fields and that's how you pay Ichiro(or another top-of-the-order star) Right now, almost the whole line-up is middle-of-the-order guys.

PaleHoseGeorge
02-04-2007, 08:44 AM
That's nice LIP. But, FWIW, his stats have been HORRIBLE for the last six seasons. There isn't much upside to an injury prone 33 year old.

I'm not disputing your point, but you have to admit the Chicago White Sox have done more with damaged goods than practically any team in sports. I wouldn't bet against Erstad making significant contributions in 2007, albeit not necessarily hitting lead-off.

Hell, even Bo Jackson got a whole new lease on life with a rubber ducky inside his artificial hip playing on the South Side.

caulfield12
02-04-2007, 09:07 AM
The Sox now have about 8 or 9 stockpiled pitchers plus about 7 or 8 million dollars leftover (Garcia's + Cotts money minus whatever Erstad, Sisco, and T Hall got). Plus we keep mentioning about 6 players competing for LF and CF. (Has to be a deal in there somewhere using one or two of them). I love players like J Dye and J Crede, but the Sox have already been weighing their $ against other options - what'll they decide when the contracts are actually up? Dye won't be given Magglio money and Crede won't be given Rolen money - that's when we'll see Sweeney & Fields and that's how you pay Ichiro(or another top-of-the-order star) Right now, almost the whole line-up is middle-of-the-order guys.


Okay, we're not trading Sweeney and we can't deal Fields unless we re-sign Joe, and, even then, we might not have a LF or RF.

So you trade Ozuna or Mackowiak and get back what exactly?

Another project, like Sisco or Thornton? We're not going to get a quality starter for both of those guys combined.

IndianWhiteSox
02-04-2007, 09:13 AM
The Sox now have about 8 or 9 stockpiled pitchers plus about 7 or 8 million dollars leftover (Garcia's + Cotts money minus whatever Erstad, Sisco, and T Hall got). Plus we keep mentioning about 6 players competing for LF and CF. (Has to be a deal in there somewhere using one or two of them). I love players like J Dye and J Crede, but the Sox have already been weighing their $ against other options - what'll they decide when the contracts are actually up? Dye won't be given Magglio money and Crede won't be given Rolen money - that's when we'll see Sweeney & Fields and that's how you pay Ichiro(or another top-of-the-order star) Right now, almost the whole line-up is middle-of-the-order guys.


First thing, I agree with you on the extent on prospects being prospects and get whil you can for them, but KW said that was to strictly fortify the farm system. Anyway my point is, why trade for someone that can be had without giving up more an a 1st rd pick at the most at the end of next year?

caulfield12
02-04-2007, 09:35 AM
It doesn't make sense to pay Ichiro $14-18 million for 2008 if we don't make the playoffs and lose Buehrle and Dye. That money would be wasted and would be better spent on pitching.

We would be much better off going young across the board and auctioning off most of our veterans for MLB ready prospects. Maybe you keep a Konerko or Garland around for continuity purposes, as you can't have all young players without some stability and players with a "winning" background.

IndianWhiteSox
02-04-2007, 09:44 AM
Caulfield, I understand what your saying and I think I can take it one step further, if let's just say hypothetically the White get a deal from the Angels which knocks their socks off so to speak(Ervin Santana, Jered Weaver, Brandon Wood, Reggie Wiltes and Chone Figgins) then maybe they could use some of that money to sign Ichiro. But however, unless the Angels somehow were dumb enough to give up all those players(4 of which would be their untouchables) then the Sox should keep konerko. By the way if our young starting pitching is really as good as advertised, the would it really matter is Vazquez and Contreras got traded?

caulfield12
02-04-2007, 10:34 AM
Caulfield, I understand what your saying and I think I can take it one step further, if let's just say hypothetically the White get a deal from the Angels which knocks their socks off so to speak(Ervin Santana, Jered Weaver, Brandon Wood, Reggie Wiltes and Chone Figgins) then maybe they could use some of that money to sign Ichiro. But however, unless the Angels somehow were dumb enough to give up all those players(4 of which would be their untouchables) then the Sox should keep konerko. By the way if our young starting pitching is really as good as advertised, the would it really matter is Vazquez and Contreras got traded?

It wouldn't, but who here can say with certainty that any of our young starters will be any better than Jon Garland over their career?

Now that's great if we have 3-4 "Garlands," we can probably win with that. But the odds aren't very high in favor of that happening. Even Danks and Gio are expected to be 3rd starters, not true aces.

Contreras and Buehrle are pitchers, that, when they are at their best, are not replaceable...even if we had someone with that ability, it would take 4-6 years for them to pitch at that level, unless you have a situation like a Liriano/Bonderman/J. Johnson or D. Willis or Jared Weaver where they can dominate right out of the box.

caulfield12
02-04-2007, 10:37 AM
Caulfield, I understand what your saying and I think I can take it one step further, if let's just say hypothetically the White get a deal from the Angels which knocks their socks off so to speak(Ervin Santana, Jered Weaver, Brandon Wood, Reggie Wiltes and Chone Figgins) then maybe they could use some of that money to sign Ichiro. But however, unless the Angels somehow were dumb enough to give up all those players(4 of which would be their untouchables) then the Sox should keep konerko. By the way if our young starting pitching is really as good as advertised, the would it really matter is Vazquez and Contreras got traded?

Figgins is far from untouchable. Willits is available too.

BUMMER
02-04-2007, 10:51 AM
It wouldn't, but who here can say with certainty that any of our young starters will be any better than Jon Garland over their career?

Now that's great if we have 3-4 "Garlands," we can probably win with that. But the odds aren't very high in favor of that happening. Even Danks and Gio are expected to be 3rd starters, not true aces.

Contreras and Buehrle are pitchers, that, when they are at their best, are not replaceable...even if we had someone with that ability, it would take 4-6 years for them to pitch at that level, unless you have a situation like a Liriano/Bonderman/J. Johnson or D. Willis or Jared Weaver where they can dominate right out of the box.
Do you think Contreras will ever win 17 out of 18 again - heck, the last 2 games I saw, he couldn't even cover first - I like him as our #1 or 2, but he is replaceable and Buehrle may need to be replaced even if we don't want him to be - really, I ain't looking to trade anybody - but if the thread here is "who leads off?" and "who plays left or center?", then a trade for a lead-off man IS an option and it can probably be anybody (veteran, prospects, or $) - I don't think money is an issue and - you're right, Ichiro will be a FAgt after next year - which puts him in the rent-a-player category - use him this year and let him walk -

ondafarm
02-04-2007, 01:45 PM
For what it's worth Roland Hemond told me that he felt Darrin Erstad should do fine as the lead off man until Podsednik returns.

Lip

That's good news. I trust Roland Hemond's judgement (and Lip's reporting.)

caulfield12
02-04-2007, 02:48 PM
Do you think Contreras will ever win 17 out of 18 again - heck, the last 2 games I saw, he couldn't even cover first - I like him as our #1 or 2, but he is replaceable and Buehrle may need to be replaced even if we don't want him to be - really, I ain't looking to trade anybody - but if the thread here is "who leads off?" and "who plays left or center?", then a trade for a lead-off man IS an option and it can probably be anybody (veteran, prospects, or $) - I don't think money is an issue and - you're right, Ichiro will be a FAgt after next year - which puts him in the rent-a-player category - use him this year and let him walk -


Okay, let's say we scrap Pods/Ozuna/Mack, we move Dye to LF and put Ichiro in RF or CF (depending on BA's progress).

What would we have to give up to get him? Realistically, it's going to take a lot more than Buehrle or Contreras. And what is our starting rotation if you trade another starter? You can't tell me you want Floyd AND Danks/Haeger/Gio in the rotation simultaneously?

Unless you just turn around trade Gio, Danks and another starter (minor leaguer....Broadway, McCullogh, Haeger, etc.), you're not going to pry Ichiro lose from the M's. And they don't really need Crede or Fields.

UserNameBlank
02-04-2007, 02:57 PM
It doesn't make sense to pay Ichiro $14-18 million for 2008 if we don't make the playoffs and lose Buehrle and Dye. That money would be wasted and would be better spent on pitching.

We would be much better off going young across the board and auctioning off most of our veterans for MLB ready prospects. Maybe you keep a Konerko or Garland around for continuity purposes, as you can't have all young players without some stability and players with a "winning" background.

I agree, and the more I think about it the more I think the Sox should go all out on Buehrle and Garland. Konerko is locked up so that is great. I'd also do the same for AJ as well.

Besides those players and our pen, anyone else is replaceable. It would certainly suck to lose the likes of Iguchi, Dye, Crede, Jose, even Javy, Thome, etc. but those are all postions we can fill in-house or else fill through trades for prospects and smart signings on the FA market. We need to keep Jon and Mark because they are young and Konerko because he is in his prime and one of the most productive all-around 1B in baseball. AJ has to stay because these young pitchers are going to need a veteran behind the plate.

If the '07 Sox for some reason fall way off pace I'd like the Sox to at least re-sign Mark and trade Crede, Javy (unless he has a breakout), and possibly Thome. Situations with Tadahito and Dye would work out since the Sox would be able to offer them arbitration without taking a big risk and would then get draft picks.