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View Full Version : Will the Sox draft more "stuff" pitchers this year?


whitesoxfan1986
01-23-2007, 04:45 PM
I seem to be getting tired of the Sox spending their 1st round draft picks on low ceiling pitchers who don't project to be more than #4 pitchers at best. I was wondering if with Kenny trading for a bunch of power arms, then this trend of stockpiling pitchers with great stuff would transfer to the draft?
It would be nice if the Sox had a dominant pitcher who can rack up Ks and hold the opposition to a low BAA. Any thoughts?

Daver
01-23-2007, 05:30 PM
I seem to be getting tired of the Sox spending their 1st round draft picks on low ceiling pitchers who don't project to be more than #4 pitchers at best. I was wondering if with Kenny trading for a bunch of power arms, then this trend of stockpiling pitchers with great stuff would transfer to the draft?
It would be nice if the Sox had a dominant pitcher who can rack up Ks and hold the opposition to a low BAA. Any thoughts?

They rarely get a chance to draft pitchers of that caliber, they haven't had a top 12 pick in years.

rdivaldi
01-23-2007, 05:39 PM
I'm in agreement with Daver. With our history of such low picks, it's hard for the Sox to get a shot at a power college pitcher with a history of low OBA and high K totals. However, I will once again bemoan the fact that we drafted Broadway over Carrillo two years ago, not because Cesar was more of a power pitcher. But because he was a polished power pitcher (say that fast 5 times).

whitesoxfan1986
01-23-2007, 05:50 PM
Let me rephrase the question then. I am talking about guys who drop in the draft due to signability issues, etc who have the stuff but are too much of a risk to draft top 15. example=Dan Bard last year.

Daver
01-23-2007, 06:03 PM
Let me rephrase the question then. I am talking about guys who drop in the draft due to signability issues, etc who have the stuff but are too much of a risk to draft top 15. example=Dan Bard last year.

Why would you draft a player in the first round unless you know for a fact you can sign him?

champagne030
01-23-2007, 08:17 PM
I'm in agreement with Daver. With our history of such low picks, it's hard for the Sox to get a shot at a power college pitcher with a history of low OBA and high K totals. However, I will once again bemoan the fact that we drafted Broadway over Carrillo two years ago, not because Cesar was more of a power pitcher. But because he was a polished power pitcher (say that fast 5 times).

I liked Carrillo over Broadway too. I know he was shut down very early last summer with elbow pain and then suffered a setback before the AFL and didn't pitch there either. Hopefully, for his sake, it's not going to be surgery.

Daver
01-23-2007, 08:20 PM
I liked Carrillo over Broadway too. I know he was shut down very early last summer with elbow pain and then suffered a setback before the AFL and didn't pitch there either. Hopefully, for his sake, it's not going to be surgery.

This is one of the reasons Kenny prefers to trade for minor leaguers that have proven to be injury free, a lot of pitchers get overused in HS and college, and get hurt right away.

btrain929
01-23-2007, 08:28 PM
I seem to be getting tired of the Sox spending their 1st round draft picks on low ceiling pitchers who don't project to be more than #4 pitchers at best. I was wondering if with Kenny trading for a bunch of power arms, then this trend of stockpiling pitchers with great stuff would transfer to the draft?
It would be nice if the Sox had a dominant pitcher who can rack up Ks and hold the opposition to a low BAA. Any thoughts?

i think with our system full of live arms for the present and the future, we need to go after some quality position players. after the crop of owens, anderson, fields, sweeney, our position players arent even close to being mediocre. talented middle infielders and stud/power hitting OF's are what we need to try and find cuz the bunch we have in the farms arent worth the jerseys their wearing as of right now....

goldglovesox
01-23-2007, 09:10 PM
I think that they should continue to draft safe bets early in order to make sure they get contributions from these guys in some way. Whether that be position players or college pitchers. Later in the draft is where I would like to see them take some more chances and grab some high ceiling guys who are drafted much more on projectibility and potential than safe guys who are already developed. I think that the Sox m.o. has been draft arms and you can always go and find offense and I tend to agree. I would rather see them develop arms whether they be high ceiling or guys who are safer bets and then trade them for offense than to take a position player who will take longer to develop and try and get a serviceable arm.

whitesoxfan1986
01-23-2007, 09:36 PM
I understand that when you draft low, you can't get great college pitchers. I am suggesting taking a few shots at some of the best HS arms in the country in rounds 2-5, maybe 1 in those rounds/year and try to convince them to go pro. This is risky, but could have a huge payoff down the road. I don't know if this is sound management or not, but who knows.

Daver
01-23-2007, 09:51 PM
I understand that when you draft low, you can't get great college pitchers. I am suggesting taking a few shots at some of the best HS arms in the country in rounds 2-5, maybe 1 in those rounds/year and try to convince them to go pro. This is risky, but could have a huge payoff down the road. I don't know if this is sound management or not, but who knows.

I can see doing it on the second day, and the Sox have, but any organization is going to use the first ten rounds to build their system, not use it to gamble. The Sox gambled in the first round on Kris Honel, and are paying the price for that now, he hasn't pitched in almost two years.

rdivaldi
01-24-2007, 09:47 AM
I can see doing it on the second day, and the Sox have, but any organization is going to use the first ten rounds to build their system, not use it to gamble. The Sox gambled in the first round on Kris Honel, and are paying the price for that now, he hasn't pitched in almost two years.

Don't forget to include Jason Stumm and Brian West on the list of drafted high school power pitchers that blew up in our faces. I for one have shied away from drafting high school players in the high rounds. My hope is Gio can buck the trend and make an impact.

caulfield12
01-24-2007, 05:11 PM
Don't forget to include Jason Stumm and Brian West on the list of drafted high school power pitchers that blew up in our faces. I for one have shied away from drafting high school players in the high rounds. My hope is Gio can buck the trend and make an impact.


And Wright, and Ginter (not really a fireball but high pick), and Purvis...even guys like Ring, Valentine and Bajenaru have been major disappointments.

Majewski was about our best (impact reliever), although obviously not with the Sox. Jason Dellaero. Mark Johnson. Eddie Pearson. Liefer. It's depressing to look at, Ruffcorn and Christman. Disaster after disaster since the early 90's in terms of high picks.

I would think you would HAVE to take Matt Garza (drafted after) over Broadway as well. He could be another Lohse, or he could be a 1-3 starter, which Lance will never be in all likelihood.

Beautox
01-24-2007, 07:44 PM
I'm in agreement with Daver. With our history of such low picks, it's hard for the Sox to get a shot at a power college pitcher with a history of low OBA and high K totals. However, I will once again bemoan the fact that we drafted Broadway over Carrillo two years ago, not because Cesar was more of a power pitcher. But because he was a polished power pitcher (say that fast 5 times).

we could've also had Garza, he went at 25 to the twins.

rdivaldi
01-24-2007, 09:37 PM
we could've also had Garza, he went at 25 to the twins.

True, but for this discussion I think we should leave him out as he is more like Broadway in terms of velocity.

caulfield12
01-25-2007, 12:35 AM
True, but for this discussion I think we should leave him out as he is more like Broadway in terms of velocity.

Broadway, 88-91.

Garza, 93-96. They are not similar pitchers at all. Garza is a power pitcher, Broadway is more of a finesse pitcher.

rdivaldi
01-25-2007, 08:24 AM
Broadway, 88-91.

Garza, 93-96. They are not similar pitchers at all. Garza is a power pitcher, Broadway is more of a finesse pitcher.

96 for Garza is very rare, when I've watched him pitch he's ususally between 91- 93. While he does throw harder than Broadway, I would not call him a power pitcher.

caulfield12
01-25-2007, 12:37 PM
96 for Garza is very rare, when I've watched him pitch he's ususally between 91- 93. While he does throw harder than Broadway, I would not call him a power pitcher.


I saw almost every one of his starts on MLB Extra Innings. He was consistently 93-94 on their guns, and reached 95-96 about 10-15% of the time. Garza is also like a Garland or McCarthy in stature, so he should add some strength and weight, as he is quite thin. He would be ranked ahead of all of our prospects by most scouting services.

He doesn't throw quite as hard as Baker, but he's definitely more of a power than finesse pitcher. He gets his strikeouts with his slider or riding fastball. I guess it depends, most would consider Brandon McCarthy a finesse pitcher because he gets strikeouts at a high rate when he has his fastball, change and curve all working.

IndianWhiteSox
01-25-2007, 01:03 PM
I seem to be getting tired of the Sox spending their 1st round draft picks on low ceiling pitchers who don't project to be more than #4 pitchers at best. I was wondering if with Kenny trading for a bunch of power arms, then this trend of stockpiling pitchers with great stuff would transfer to the draft?
It would be nice if the Sox had a dominant pitcher who can rack up Ks and hold the opposition to a low BAA. Any thoughts?

You do realize that having a pitcher with a supposed high ceiling is a guarantee for success(i.e. bust- Brien Taylor, Jay Howell, Mark Prior, and i.e. success- Mark Buehrle, Johan Santana)


They rarely get a chance to draft pitchers of that
caliber, they haven't had a top 12 pick in years.

Daver my good man, I just don't understand how that's possible when our rivals 11 hours north seem to always have Aces in the hole so to speak(i.e.-Santana for Camp, Garza after Broadway, Baker, etc.).

KRS1
01-25-2007, 01:26 PM
He doesn't throw quite as hard as Baker, but he's definitely more of a power than finesse pitcher.

Baker tops out at 94, so he does throw as hard as Baker. In fact last season, every time I saw Baker he sat around 88 to 92 for the most part and letting loose at 93 a few times a game. I saw Garza pitch once last season, and he was right at 92-93 with his fastball for a very good portion of that start, but he turned it up with some 95 when he needed a big pitch.

Save McCuddy's
01-25-2007, 01:43 PM
Garza is developing into a serious problem. I know absolutely nothing about the science of drafting young pitchers, but based on how much more Garza appears capable of vs. Broadway you'd have to conclude that it's a tricky process.

Daver
01-25-2007, 02:47 PM
Garza is developing into a serious problem. I know absolutely nothing about the science of drafting young pitchers, but based on how much more Garza appears capable of vs. Broadway you'd have to conclude that it's a tricky process.

It's not a science really, it's pure scouting, and the Twins do it better than any other team in MLB. For every amateur player the Sox scout, the Twins scout 3, and more extensively.

Save McCuddy's
01-25-2007, 03:29 PM
It's not a science really, it's pure scouting, and the Twins do it better than any other team in MLB. For every amateur player the Sox scout, the Twins scout 3, and more extensively.

I suspected that was the case, but wanted to avoid the dark cloud tag by coming out and stating it without credible evidence. I guess it would have to be more than a coincidence that they consistently develop better young players.

rdivaldi
01-25-2007, 03:59 PM
It's not a science really, it's pure scouting, and the Twins do it better than any other team in MLB. For every amateur player the Sox scout, the Twins scout 3, and more extensively.

Hmmmmm. I'd be inclined to disagree with that statement. Is there any evidence that the Twins scout more players or have a larger department than us?

Daver
01-25-2007, 04:06 PM
Hmmmmm. I'd be inclined to disagree with that statement. Is there any evidence that the Twins scout more players or have a larger department than us?

That is based on a conversation I had with a Sox scout, who flat out told me the Twins have twice as many scouts as the Sox do, not including the guys that scout for them part time.

rdivaldi
01-25-2007, 04:07 PM
That is based on a conversation I had with a Sox scout, who flat out told me the Twins have twice as many scouts as the Sox do, not including the guys that scout for them part time.

Wow, if true that's pathetic. There's no excuse for that on our part.

CPditka
01-25-2007, 04:10 PM
I've always thought that the Sox theory on "power arms" is that they take the safe bet in the draft, and then let the other teams draft/take the risk on the the "power arms" to see if their arms can hold up to sustained innings and what not. Then the Sox will trade for said power arm. I think they pretty much hedge their bets by taking pitchers not throwers.

caulfield12
01-25-2007, 05:56 PM
The Twins do a much better job scouting OTHER organizations for players on the fringes or AA/AAA players who could make an impact.

Nathan, Liriano, Santana, Bonser, Silva, Lohse, Bartlett (acquired for Brian Buchanan!), Punto (with Silva for Milton), Castillo (smart pick-up), Jason Tyner, Ken Harvey, Ponson, Ortiz...they've had a few misses recently (Batista and Bret Boone), but they are the best at finding undervalued talent.

When you looked at who they've drafted and developed, they've done a much better job with developing relievers (like Neshek, Perkins, Rincon, Crain, Balfour) than starters. Garza and Baker are their two best, but they've had as many misses as the Sox with developing their own starters.

They had a great pick in Morneau and lucked out with the Prior/Mauer situation....and Cuddyer's become quite a player as well, not to mention Jason Kubel, who looked to be another Twins' future star until hurting his knee.

caulfield12
01-25-2007, 06:00 PM
http://citypages.com/databank/27/1346/article14739.asp

http://citypages.com/databank/27/1346/article14727.asp

Two articles that will tell you everything you ever needed to know (and more) about the Twins' Scouting Director and Ryan's organizational philosophy. Must reading for any minor league/scouting/development aficionado.

Randar68
01-26-2007, 04:48 PM
Wow, if true that's pathetic. There's no excuse for that on our part.

Yeah, it's just a part of our philosophy, and that of almost every other team as well. The Sox aren't the only team lagging the Twins in that department, pretty much every other organization does as well.

So, that being said, how is it "pathetic" on the CWS's part? They spend their resources on the major league club instead, using the system to develop tradeable commodities and the occassional prospect they keep.

The Twins must use their system to provide a steady flow of talent to the big league club, because they can't afford many veterans or FA's.

Frater Perdurabo
01-26-2007, 05:05 PM
Yeah, it's just a part of our philosophy, and that of almost every other team as well. The Sox aren't the only team lagging the Twins in that department, pretty much every other organization does as well.

So, that being said, how is it "pathetic" on the CWS's part? They spend their resources on the major league club instead, using the system to develop tradeable commodities and the occassional prospect they keep.

The Twins must use their system to provide a steady flow of talent to the big league club, because they can't afford many veterans or FA's.

Why not do both? Don't the Sox have the resources to hire top-notch scouts and lots more of them, plus put more money than the Twins into payroll?

caulfield12
01-26-2007, 08:09 PM
We've had some success with Takatsu and Iguchi, but nothing else from Japan, Korea or Taiwan.

Venezuela, DR and PR have also been disasters, with the exception fo Maggs from VEN and Carlos Lee from Panama. We really need to shore up our situation in VEN with Ozzie and the connections and esteem he is currently held in there. I can't even remember the last Dominican and PR players we've developed, and Sosa doesn't count, he was from the Rangers.

Unfortunately, it seems the White Sox never are willing to bid against the big boys in the "foreign market" FA wars. We've gotten Gomes, the Asian pitcher, but I can't think of a time we've shelled out more than $500,000, ever.

rdivaldi
01-28-2007, 08:54 PM
Yeah, it's just a part of our philosophy, and that of almost every other team as well. The Sox aren't the only team lagging the Twins in that department, pretty much every other organization does as well.

So, that being said, how is it "pathetic" on the CWS's part? They spend their resources on the major league club instead, using the system to develop tradeable commodities and the occassional prospect they keep.

The Twins must use their system to provide a steady flow of talent to the big league club, because they can't afford many veterans or FA's.

Pathetic in the sense that we have the financial resources to outspend the Twins. I'd like to see the breakdown before belly-aching further, but I have to imagine that we have enough $$$ to spend freely on both major league and minor league scouting.