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rdivaldi
01-16-2007, 12:36 AM
At least that's what the Cubune is stating.

http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/cs-070115sox,1,5623731.htmlstory?coll=cs-whitesox-headlines

DumpJerry
01-16-2007, 12:43 AM
Let's hope so. However, the story makes little sense. Who is negotiating on behalf of the Sox? Rick Hahn? Uncle Jerry? WSI's Daver?

California Sox
01-16-2007, 12:52 AM
Let's hope so. However, the story makes little sense. Who is negotiating on behalf of the Sox? Rick Hahn? Uncle Jerry? WSI's Daver?

I would imagine it's Hahn.

HomeFish
01-16-2007, 01:05 AM
Hopefully this is nothing more than just a one-year extension.

Signing Crede to a long-term deal would be foolish, especially in today's overinflated market. The guy has a hole in his swing and is never going to be a consistent offensive player, and we all know about his back problems.

QCIASOXFAN
01-16-2007, 01:08 AM
Hopefully this is nothing more than just a one-year extension.

Signing Crede to a long-term deal would be foolish, especially in today's overinflated market. The guy has a hole in his swing and is never going to be a consistent offensive player, and we all know about his back problems.
I don't agree it anything else you said, but you did have a good point about the back problems.:(:

DrCrawdad
01-16-2007, 01:15 AM
General manager Ken Williams has said he expected to trade Crede before he becomes a free agent after the 2008 season...

Has KW actually explicitly said that?

HotelWhiteSox
01-16-2007, 01:22 AM
oooo could it be one of those SoxFest announcements

SABRSox
01-16-2007, 01:36 AM
I wouldn't count on a multi-year deal. Probably another one and done.

crazyozzie02
01-16-2007, 01:46 AM
I wouldn't count on a multi-year deal. Probably another one and done.

i agree with you, but i kinda hope that its a one year deal full of options. It seems like that may be a way to make both sides happy

ondafarm
01-16-2007, 03:52 AM
I think a one-year deal is probably on the mind of both sides.

Trav
01-16-2007, 09:13 AM
I think a one-year deal is probably on the mind of both sides.


I wouldn't mind a three year deal.

KyWhiSoxFan
01-16-2007, 09:22 AM
If they really wanted to trade him, they sign him to a multi-year deal. Then it would not matter what the cost, since they wouldn't be paying and he is locked down for a number of years, not seen as just a one-year risk by the trading partner. Signing him to a multi-year deal also sends the signal that the Sox think his back is okay.

Hitmen77
01-16-2007, 09:31 AM
The article is very confusing.



"White Sox poised to sign Crede"
"the two sides are engaged in talks about a new contract that include one-year and multiyear proposals."
"but sources indicated it [negotiations?] might not get that far"
"General manager Ken Williams has said he expected to trade Crede before he becomes a free agent after the 2008 season"
So, the Sox are "poised" to sign Crede and talks include a multiyear deal .....but negotiations aren't expected to get that far and KW has said he will trade Crede before he becomes a FA? :?:

rdwj
01-16-2007, 09:41 AM
I hope he gets a long term deal. I know it's a long shot, but Joe Crede is a special player. He makes our pitching staff better with that glove and has a knack for the big hit. The Sox are MUCH worse without him.

The back worries me a bit, but not NEARLY as much as Josh Fields.

Malgar 12
01-16-2007, 09:50 AM
The article is very confusing.


"White Sox poised to sign Crede"
"the two sides are engaged in talks about a new contract that include one-year and multiyear proposals."
"but sources indicated it [negotiations?] might not get that far"
"General manager Ken Williams has said he expected to trade Crede before he becomes a free agent after the 2008 season"
So, the Sox are "poised" to sign Crede and talks include a multiyear deal .....but negotiations aren't expected to get that far and KW has said he will trade Crede before he becomes a FA? :?:


The "might not get that far" is in regards to arbitration.

Rocky Soprano
01-16-2007, 10:20 AM
Hopefully this is nothing more than just a one-year extension.

Signing Crede to a long-term deal would be foolish, especially in today's overinflated market. The guy has a hole in his swing and is never going to be a consistent offensive player, and we all know about his back problems.

Have you ever posted anything of value?

blah blah blah, shut the **** up.

SBSoxFan
01-16-2007, 10:31 AM
I hope he gets a long term deal. I know it's a long shot, but Joe Crede is a special player. He makes our pitching staff better with that glove and has a knack for the big hit. The Sox are MUCH worse without him.

The back worries me a bit, but not NEARLY as much as Josh Fields.

I agree, except for the back part. Back, schmack, his back will be fine! What does bother me, however, is that Joe's never had a strong, full season. When he finished so well in '05, it came on the heels of his DL stint for a broken finger. Without a similar break last year, he wilted a bit in September.

esbrechtel
01-16-2007, 11:04 AM
Everyone knows Homefish's stance on signing Crede....if he had it his way we would have traded him years ago....however, it would not be the first the the sox invested in a question mark...Jim Thome was a huge question mark, we are paying him a decent ammount of money to DH for this team and coming into this season he had some injury woes. However, thanks for Herm he had a pretty solid season....apparently Crede is going to be on the same workout plan as Thome was a year ago for back problems, worked for Thome why not Crede?

HomeFish
01-16-2007, 11:08 AM
You aren't seriously comparing Crede to Thome, are you?

Sure, both have had back problems. But Thome is a proven consistent offensive player, whereas Crede will never be that. Thome is so much more valuable when healthy...that changes things.

nug0hs
01-16-2007, 11:22 AM
You aren't seriously comparing Crede to Thome, are you?

Sure, both have had back problems. But Thome is a proven consistent offensive player, whereas Crede will never be that. Thome is so much more valuable when healthy...that changes things.

Man, I wish more people would understand this issue. Baseball is not about offense offense offense. How many games do you think Crede's glove has saved for us within the past 3 or so seasons? There are some times where you simply have to bite the bullet on offense and start someone for 100 games whos defense is spectacular.

Grzegorz
01-16-2007, 11:32 AM
Thome is so much more valuable when healthy...that changes things.

Especially when sitting on the bench because:
1. He no longer is capable of playing credible defense
2. Injuries.

Give me the everyday player any day of the week.

infohawk
01-16-2007, 11:53 AM
The article is very confusing.


"White Sox poised to sign Crede"
"the two sides are engaged in talks about a new contract that include one-year and multiyear proposals."
"but sources indicated it [negotiations?] might not get that far"
"General manager Ken Williams has said he expected to trade Crede before he becomes a free agent after the 2008 season"
So, the Sox are "poised" to sign Crede and talks include a multiyear deal .....but negotiations aren't expected to get that far and KW has said he will trade Crede before he becomes a FA? :?:

The article is saying that they aren't expected to get to arbitration because a deal is expected to be reached. It also mentioned that KW may be directly involved in the negotiations now.

mrwag
01-16-2007, 11:55 AM
Man, I wish more people would understand this issue. Baseball is not about offense offense offense. How many games do you think Crede's glove has saved for us within the past 3 or so seasons? There are some times where you simply have to bite the bullet on offense and start someone for 100 games whos defense is spectacular.

Yep - bring out the 2005 post season DVDs. He proved his value. Without his glove would the outcome have been the same?

Hitmen77
01-16-2007, 12:18 PM
The "might not get that far" is in regards to arbitration.

The article is saying that they aren't expected to get to arbitration because a deal is expected to be reached. It also mentioned that KW may be directly involved in the negotiations now.

Thanks for the clarification. It makes more sense to me now.

havelj
01-16-2007, 12:26 PM
ESPN1000 (Levine) says 1 year deal signed.

crazyozzie02
01-16-2007, 12:29 PM
ESPN1000 (Levine) says 1 year deal signed.

We all know how trustworthy that source is.

Gammons Peter
01-16-2007, 12:35 PM
5 Mil

Grobber33
01-16-2007, 12:46 PM
It's done. Here is what I posted on my own site:

The White Sox no longer have any arbitration eligible players after Joe Crede agreed to a one year deal worth $4.94 Million.Crede is in the prime of his career age wise since he's only 28. He batted .283 for the Sox in 2006 with 30 homers,94 RBI's and 31 doubles in 150 games. He also won his first Silver Slugger Award,becoming the first Sox third sacker ever to win that award. His 30 dingers was second all time for the South Sider Third Baseman-Robin Ventura had 32 in 1996. Crede has a fielding percentage of .970 since and including the 2003 season. Only Oakland's Eric Chavez at .973 is better during that span.
LES

Risk
01-16-2007, 12:50 PM
1 year @ $5 mil--seems like a good deal. But I thought the Tribune and their crack sports reporters said that Crede was as good as gone and the Sox were going cheap.

Risk

eriqjaffe
01-16-2007, 12:50 PM
His 30 dingers was second all time for the South Sider Third Baseman-Robin Ventura had 32 in 1996.What about Bill Melton's 33 in 1970 & 1971?

thomas35forever
01-16-2007, 12:54 PM
If this is true, I'd be surprised Boras didn't ask for double digits in the millions column.

itsnotrequired
01-16-2007, 12:57 PM
What about Bill Melton's 33 in 1970 & 1971?

Yep, Melton hit 33 in 1971. He also hit 33 in 1970 but split his time essentially equally between 3B and RF.

rdivaldi
01-16-2007, 01:01 PM
With Crede signing for $5 mil, does anyone have a payroll estimate?

Grobber33
01-16-2007, 01:01 PM
What about Bill Melton's 33 in 1970 & 1971?
You're right,,,the Sox PR Releaseobviously made a mistake!!!! Cant cheat my buddy 'Beltin Bill!'

Grzegorz
01-16-2007, 01:07 PM
If this is true, I'd be surprised Boras didn't ask for double digits in the millions column.

Boras is buying time; if Crede performs as we expect him to perform Boras will look to break the bank.

caulfield12
01-16-2007, 01:07 PM
I wonder what's the deal with $4.940,000?

Was KW trying to say, we should pay a player after his fourth year more than $5 million?

Seems like a very strange number to come up....

spiffie
01-16-2007, 01:10 PM
If this is true, I'd be surprised Boras didn't ask for double digits in the millions column.
Boras is evil but he's neither stupid nor magical. He makes his money when players get to the open market and he can convince teams to overpay or lose someone. In this case there's nothing he can do of that sort. If the Sox don't sign him they'll go to arbitration, Joe might get a little less or a little more, but nothing significant on either side. I doubt with Boras involved you'll see an extension beyond Crede's FA eligible point, but until then there's no reason to suspect things won't run smoothly.

itsnotrequired
01-16-2007, 01:10 PM
If this is true, I'd be surprised Boras didn't ask for double digits in the millions column.

He would have never got it. If he asked for something insane and refused to budge, the Sox would have gladly gone to an arbitrator. Crede is certainly worth $5 million/yr but is not worth $10 million/yr. But based on Crede's comments in the past re: his representation not representing his interests, Crede may have ditched Boras before letting it go to an arbitrator.

esbrechtel
01-16-2007, 01:10 PM
You aren't seriously comparing Crede to Thome, are you?

Sure, both have had back problems. But Thome is a proven consistent offensive player, whereas Crede will never be that. Thome is so much more valuable when healthy...that changes things.

Down the stretch saving runs is just as important as getting them...I'm not saying Crede is at Thome's level offensively...but come on give the guy SOME credit he has played beyond amazing at third, you have to admit that...

Grobber33
01-16-2007, 01:10 PM
You're right,,,the
Sox PR Release obviously was wrong,,
Crede, 28, received his first Silver Slugger Award and was named the third baseman on The Sporting News American League All-Star Team in 2006 after hitting .283 (154-544) with 31 doubles, 30 home runs and 94 RBI in 150 games with the White Sox. He became the first third baseman in Sox history to win the Silver Slugger Award, and his 30 home runs were the second-highest total in franchise history at that position, trailing only Robin Ventura’s 32 in 1996.

Anyone can make a mistake--the Sox PR Dept does a GREAT job!!

caulfield12
01-16-2007, 01:18 PM
For a player of his service time, that's out of the question.

Sizemore (a player we could all agree upon is more valuable)

03/29/06: Signed six-year, $23.45 million contract. 2007: $750,000, 2008: $3 million, 2009: $4.6 million, 2010: $5.6 million, 2011: $7.5 million, 2012: $8.5 million club option w/$500,000 buyout, 2013: Free Agent

In fact, after his fifth (not fourth) service year, he's going to be making $400,000 less than Crede. Great deal for the Indians, nullified almost by the idiocy of the Peralta deal.
http://www.rotoworld.com/images/pixel.gif http://www.rotoworld.com/images/pixel.gif http://www.rotoworld.com/images/pixel.gif http://www.rotoworld.com/images/left_corner_bt_player_news.gif http://www.rotoworld.com/images/pixel.gif

Carl Crawford's 6 year deal is worth "ONLY" $31 million.

Both players have to be considered huge bargains, making them all that more difficult to obtain via trade.

NorthSideSox72
01-16-2007, 01:35 PM
1 year @ $5 mil--seems like a good deal. But I thought the Tribune and their crack sports reporters said that Crede was as good as gone and the Sox were going cheap.

Risk
The fact that Crede signed has zero to do with whether or not he might be gone. In fact, getting this deal done prior to arbitration leaves more time for KW and Hahn to play the market. And Crede was never going to just "leave" anyway, we still have rights to him.

I wouldn't bank on Crede being there on Opening Day just yet. I HOPE HE IS, but its still up in the air.

WhiteSox5187
01-16-2007, 01:45 PM
The fact that Crede signed has zero to do with whether or not he might be gone. In fact, getting this deal done prior to arbitration leaves more time for KW and Hahn to play the market. And Crede was never going to just "leave" anyway, we still have rights to him.

I wouldn't bank on Crede being there on Opening Day just yet. I HOPE HE IS, but its still up in the air.
Yea, this deal doesn't really mean anything. But I think it DOES discredit this idea of the Sox going cheap. We resigned him and if he is productive and stays healthy I think he'll be getting a multi-year extension.

DumpJerry
01-16-2007, 01:53 PM
With Crede signing for $5 mil, does anyone have a payroll estimate?
Per the Cubune:
5.1 million. This includes the new Crede contract. KW is to be lauded for cutting payroll to allow the Cubs to take over whatever it is they are supposed to take over.:rolleyes:

Domeshot17
01-16-2007, 02:06 PM
I agree, except for the back part. Back, schmack, his back will be fine! What does bother me, however, is that Joe's never had a strong, full season. When he finished so well in '05, it came on the heels of his DL stint for a broken finger. Without a similar break last year, he wilted a bit in September.


Kind of a catch 22. Crede will never have a full season without his back healing, and if he takes time to let his back heal, he won't have a full season. He needed to have the surgery.

soxtalker
01-16-2007, 02:17 PM
Yea, this deal doesn't really mean anything. But I think it DOES discredit this idea of the Sox going cheap. We resigned him and if he is productive and stays healthy I think he'll be getting a multi-year extension.

I think that the Sox "going cheap" is a bit of a semantics debate.

There has been little indication that the Sox are going to reduce their payroll significantly below the $100MM mark. Some took the shedding of Freddy Garcia's contract as evidence that might happen, but that money was taken up by increases to other players.

Now, there are those that take the view that the Sox should increase their payroll to match the increases in market price for experienced pitching. I don't agree with that, but it is a perfectly valid perspective. By those standards, the Sox might very well be "going cheap" -- and Crede's extension does nothing to change that.

Foulke You
01-16-2007, 02:56 PM
But Thome is a proven consistent offensive player, whereas Crede will never be that.
On what basis do you make that comment? Joe Crede's offensive numbers have improved every single year on the White Sox. If he is healthy, there is no reason to believe that he won't have another 30HR 90RBI season. He also brings a gold glove caliber defense to the hot corner which is something we haven't had since Robin Ventura. You also mentioned a "hole" in his swing. Perhaps you are referring to 2004 Joe Crede who couldn't hit the belt to letter high fastball. The 2005-2006 Crede has made the adjustments to that pitch as his numbers show. If a .283 avg 30HR and 94RBI shows a hole in the swing, then I'd love to have a few more guys in the lineup with that "hole".:rolleyes:

cbotnyse
01-16-2007, 03:03 PM
I predict an all star year fom Joe.

book it.

Norberto7
01-16-2007, 04:04 PM
Joe Crede's offensive numbers have improved every single year on the White Sox.

Don't know if that's a fact....

2002 - .285/12/35 (1/2 season)
2003 - .261/19/75
2004 - .239/21/69
2005 - .252/22/62
2006 - .283/30/94

...but last year's numbers do make the deal a good one for the Sox.

ode to veeck
01-16-2007, 04:52 PM
The guy has a hole in his swing and is never going to be a consistent offensive player, and we all know about his back problems.
<...>
You aren't seriously comparing Crede to Thome, are you?

Sure, both have had back problems. But Thome is a proven consistent offensive player, whereas Crede will never be that. Thome is so much more valuable when healthy...that changes things.

*** are you talking about!? Shoota is that you!?! If you're gonna bring up Crede's back then why can't we talk about Thome injury prone history, or the 2nd half last year when he got only 12 HRs and 30 odd ribbies and had a whopping .274 BA.

Even when his OBP and BA were less than stellar, Crede's always had a knack for some real big clutch hitting, and the guy year in year out has the best frigging glove at the hot corner, period. How many playoff games did you miss when Joe hit 4 HRs 11 Ribbies and .289, including some of the most important hits in the '05 playoffs/championship run!?!

Sure, Thome was the comback player of the year last year and I love having him at DH, but Crede's bat has actually become more consistent throughout the strike zone, as evidenced by his more level swing and better numbers last year, ... "never gonna be a consistent offensive player"!?! I think you've been hitting stuff a lot harder than the
:bong:

ilsox7
01-16-2007, 04:58 PM
Kind of a catch 22. Crede will never have a full season without his back healing, and if he takes time to let his back heal, he won't have a full season. He needed to have the surgery.

And you know this how? Many back injuries can be healed through non-surgical methods. And taking a scalpel to the spine/spine-area would be about the last thing I'd ever want to do. I have an awful back myself, but surgery is the absolute last road to go down. I am sure Joe will have the surgery if it comes to that, but to say he needed to have it is BS.

santo=dorf
01-16-2007, 05:04 PM
*** are you talking about!? Shoota is that you!?! If you're gonna bring up Crede's back then why can't we talk about Thome injury prone history, or the 2nd half last year when he got only 12 HRs and 30 odd ribbies and had a whopping .274 BA.

Even when his OBP and BA were less than stellar, Crede's always had a knack for some real big clutch hitting, and the guy year in year out has the best frigging glove at the hot corner, period. How many playoff games did you miss when Joe hit 4 HRs 11 Ribbies and .289, including some of the most important hits in the '05 playoffs/championship run!?!

Sure, Thome was the comback player of the year last year and I love having him at DH, but Crede's bat has actually become more consistent throughout the strike zone, as evidenced by his more level swing and better numbers last year, ... "never gonna be a consistent offensive player"!?! I think you've been hitting stuff a lot harder than the
:bong:
Thome's second half line: .274/.420/.522 12 HR, 30 RBI's
Crede's second half line: .270/.311/.498, 14 HR, 37 RBI's

Thome > Crede

esbrechtel
01-16-2007, 05:17 PM
Thome's second half line: .274/.420/.522 12 HR, 30 RBI's
Crede's second half line: .270/.311/.498, 14 HR, 37 RBI's

Thome > Crede

those numbers are barely better....and crede has more expectations than just stepping up to the plate 3 times a game.....what was thome's fielding percentage? dont get me wrong i think jim is a class act and a great player...however i dont think you can just say crede is not a good or even a great player

lakeviewsoxfan
01-16-2007, 05:29 PM
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2007/baseball/mlb/01/16/crede.whitesox.ap/index.html

santo=dorf
01-16-2007, 05:30 PM
those numbers are barely better....and crede has more expectations than just stepping up to the plate 3 times a game.....what was thome's fielding percentage? dont get me wrong i think jim is a class act and a great player...however i dont think you can just say crede is not a good or even a great player
Fielding % sucks as a stat, and Crede's OBP is significantly much lower than Thome's. If Thome sucked in the second half and BA was only a "whopping" .274, what does that say about Crede's similar (I still say worse) second hald and his lower BA?

Crede is not a great player, and is a boderline good player because of his stellar defense.

I think Crede just passed Garland as the most overrated Sox player.

Flight #24
01-16-2007, 05:31 PM
FWIW, some quotes from Rick Hahn, courtesy of ESPN:


"I think too much has been made of [possibly losing Crede]," Hahn said. "And perhaps it is because we have been able to lock up guys before they hit free agency."

"Not having a guy signed to a multiyear deal is not an indication that ... he's on his way out the door," Hahn said. "I think a lot of that speculation is premature as it relates to Joe."


And on the claim that Fields makes Crede a short-timer

"Josh has made a great deal of progress in the last two years alone, and he's a guy we feel in the very near future is going to be an impact major-league bat," Hahn said. "We're either going to have to find a way to accommodate both of them or figure out something else that makes sense for the club. [Crede's] contract status is not really a factor in determining what the next move is going to be with regard to Joe or Josh Fields."

caulfield12
01-16-2007, 05:34 PM
It depends on how you classify "great." Robin Ventura, Konerko and Harold Baines (or even Magglio) were/are very good players, but they weren't quite what I would call great either.

They would show flashes of greatness, and Crede's consistent clutch hitting (homer off Riske and playoff homers) tends to be overrated by some and underappreciated by others. No doubt he's a Top 2-3 defensive player, but he's got to put up five more seasons like the last 2 before you can say "great" and Crede in the same sentence.

There's just that "intangible" quality with a star or HOF player that's a notch above...you know it when you see it. For instance, Fred McGriff put up huge numbers over his career, but would you ever compare Thomas and McGriff in terms of their impacts on the game? Let's see him in 2-3 more All Star Games and then we'll revisit this discussion.

WizardsofOzzie
01-16-2007, 05:43 PM
:You aren't seriously comparing Crede to Thome, are you?

Sure, both have had back problems. But Thome is a proven consistent offensive player, whereas Crede will never be that. Thome is so much more valuable when healthy...that changes things.
:dumbpeople:

converted
01-16-2007, 05:43 PM
Hopefully this is nothing more than just a one-year extension.

Signing Crede to a long-term deal would be foolish, especially in today's overinflated market. The guy has a hole in his swing and is never going to be a consistent offensive player, and we all know about his back problems.


I dont know if I would say, foolish. Back shmack. Don't discredit the man after what he has given to the team. The young guy (Fields) will come up when he is ready. Then we'll see what happens. :smile:

WizardsofOzzie
01-16-2007, 05:47 PM
I dont know if I would say, foolish. Back shmack. Don't discredit the man after what he has given to the team. The young guy (Fields) will come up when he is ready. Then we'll see what happens. :smile:

Your sig made me smile :redneck

Beer Can Chicken
01-16-2007, 07:34 PM
Yea, this deal doesn't really mean anything. But I think it DOES discredit this idea of the Sox going cheap. We resigned him and if he is productive and stays healthy I think he'll be getting a multi-year extension.

He would have gotten at least this in arbitration. He'll be back in arbitration again next year. If we were going to sign him to a multi-year extension at a fair rate, the time to do that just passed.

itsnotrequired
01-16-2007, 07:44 PM
If we were going to sign him to a multi-year extension at a fair rate, the time to do that just passed.

How so? The Sox can extend his contract at any time. They still control him next season as well.

drftnaway
01-16-2007, 07:54 PM
Yep - bring out the 2005 post season DVDs. He proved his value. Without his glove would the outcome have been the same?

Without everything would the outcome have been the same?
Crede is so over-rated imo. Not saying he isn't good, but to hear some people here you'd think he was another brooks robinson. T'ain't so!

digdagdug23
01-16-2007, 07:59 PM
Without everything would the outcome have been the same?
Crede is so over-rated imo. Not saying he isn't good, but to hear some people here you'd think he was another brooks robinson. T'ain't so!

Crede has been an integral part of this team, and has put in his time. He is as good as anyone at his position, and deserves to be a part of the team. Thankfully, KW doesn't have the same opinion as you do.

Hitmen77
01-16-2007, 08:00 PM
FWIW, some quotes from Rick Hahn, courtesy of ESPN:



And on the claim that Fields makes Crede a short-timer

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2732867

Some good quotes from Hahn. That's what I like to hear.

Beer Can Chicken
01-16-2007, 08:07 PM
How so? The Sox can extend his contract at any time. They still control him next season as well.

I know they control him next season and I'm aware of the comments he's made about getting rid of his agent if he didn't feel he was acting in his best interests.
From a contract negotiation standpoint though, I just don't like our odds of resigning him. If he improves even more this season or maintains current level of play, why would he sign an extension? And even if he does agree to an extension, he'll demand waaaay more than he would have this year. If he regresses a little bit, the SOX won't want to touch him because they have Fields waiting in the wings.
I'm not prepared to say Crede being on another team in 2009 is a good thing or a bad thing, I'm just saying that I think he'll be a another team come 2009.

drftnaway
01-16-2007, 08:08 PM
Crede has been an integral part of this team, and has put in his time. He is as good as anyone at his position, and deserves to be a part of the team. Thankfully, KW doesn't have the same opinion as you do.

I would bet KW has about the same opinion as I do. I like Crede. He's very good and looks like he's getting better. He's still over-rated by many posters here.

MRM
01-16-2007, 08:24 PM
He would have gotten at least this in arbitration. He'll be back in arbitration again next year. If we were going to sign him to a multi-year extension at a fair rate, the time to do that just passed.

Exactly. The time to do a long term deal is before the walk year. After this year, Crede has all the leverage in the negotiations. Right now, expecially with his back issues, is the time to do a long term deal if that's the intention. Big risk, but he'd come much cheaper this year than next.

I find it interesting that Hahn did the negotiations on this deal, tho. I knew JR and the agent from hell didn't get along from the Weaver days but I didn't know Kenny and Boras had any issues.

Honestly, I don't know why anyone signs with either Chicago team unless the $$ are fantastic. Much more to be made in endorsement money in other cities (who was the last Chicago athlete to secure a large endorsement deal? Jordan?) and the weather isn't all that great in the early and latter parts of the season. I'd bet my house there is no way Pauly would've re-signed if not for coming off the emotion of the world series win.

SouthSide_HitMen
01-16-2007, 08:26 PM
With Crede signing for $5 mil, does anyone have a payroll estimate?

I provided it last month here (http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=82418) (and predicted $5 mil for Crede :cool: ).

Substitute McCarthy with whoever slots at #5 with the same salary ($380,000 - MLB minimum in 2007).

Total 2007 Net Payroll $95,030,000

Total 2006 Net Payroll $91,750,000

SSHM, a number cruncher (when he puts his mind to it). :D:

GoSox2K3
01-16-2007, 09:20 PM
Exactly. The time to do a long term deal is before the walk year. we're TWO years away from his walk year.



Honestly, I don't know why anyone signs with either Chicago team unless the $$ are fantastic. Much more to be made in endorsement money in other cities (who was the last Chicago athlete to secure a large endorsement deal? Jordan?) and the weather isn't all that great in the early and latter parts of the season. I'd bet my house there is no way Pauly would've re-signed if not for coming off the emotion of the world series win.

Chicago is the 3rd largest market in America. Why would endorsement $$ be better in anywhere but NY or LA. As far as weather goes - they play from April-October. Hardly "Bears" weather. I don't think weather is that much of a factor in where they want to play.

Hitmen77
01-16-2007, 09:23 PM
I provided it last month here (http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=82418) (and predicted $5 mil for Crede :cool: ).

Substitute McCarthy with whoever slots at #5 with the same salary ($380,000 - MLB minimum in 2007).

Total 2007 Net Payroll $95,030,000

Total 2006 Net Payroll $91,750,000

SSHM, a number cruncher (when he puts his mind to it). :D:

With all this talk in the media about the Sox being "cheap", I wonder where this will rank the Sox for the 2007 season. I bet they're still in the top 10 in payroll. But I guess it just makes people feel better to complain about the Sox being "cheap".

itsnotrequired
01-16-2007, 09:25 PM
I provided it last month here (http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=82418) (and predicted $5 mil for Crede :cool: ).

Substitute McCarthy with whoever slots at #5 with the same salary ($380,000 - MLB minimum in 2007).

Total 2007 Net Payroll $95,030,000

Total 2006 Net Payroll $91,750,000

SSHM, a number cruncher (when he puts his mind to it). :D:

:sahaf

"Lies! All lies! The Sox have CUT payroll for 2007! They are going cheap! KW knows what side of the bread is buttered! Can you not see how he is saving dollars? Listen to my Brothers in Arms Mike North and all the fine writers at the Tribune! They speak TRUTH! Listen not to the infidel SSHM!"

Grzegorz
01-16-2007, 09:33 PM
Kind of a catch 22. Crede will never have a full season without his back healing, and if he takes time to let his back heal, he won't have a full season. He needed to have the surgery.

Domeshot17,

I do not know how anyone could recommend having the surgery unless he was the provider for that player.

I have to believe that the decision not to have surgery was made in good faith. You know, if Crede was given a break now or then, say by having Mackowiac spell him at third from time to time, chances are he wouldn't have the the wall at the end of the season.

ondafarm
01-16-2007, 10:16 PM
I think this year will be a critical one for Crede and his future with the White Sox.

The Sox have the money to resign him but the question is, will he be worth it?

Two quick scenerios:

1) Crede has a solid GG-caliber defensive season and his hitting is again that of one of the top 3rd basemen in the league. Maybe a few more rbis but a few fewer homers. He misses one brief stretch with a freaky injury (like a broken finger from bunting.)

2) Crede plays well but his back starts to act up. He misses a month early and several weeks late. His offense is closer to his career average and a notch below last year. His defense is mostly solid, but occasionally he favors his back.

Condition 1) I say sign him long-term (4 years) for $32 million or such.

Condition 2) I say Fields may be a better choice.

Either way, Fields plays third at Charlotte most of this year, gets some time with the Sox and is ready for 2008. Where is his question.

SouthSideLove
01-16-2007, 11:53 PM
I think this year will be a critical one for Crede and his future with the White Sox.

The Sox have the money to resign him but the question is, will he be worth it?

Two quick scenerios:

1) Crede has a solid GG-caliber defensive season and his hitting is again that of one of the top 3rd basemen in the league. Maybe a few more rbis but a few fewer homers. He misses one brief stretch with a freaky injury (like a broken finger from bunting.)

2) Crede plays well but his back starts to act up. He misses a month early and several weeks late. His offense is closer to his career average and a notch below last year. His defense is mostly solid, but occasionally he favors his back.

Condition 1) I say sign him long-term (4 years) for $32 million or such.

Condition 2) I say Fields may be a better choice.

Either way, Fields plays third at Charlotte most of this year, gets some time with the Sox and is ready for 2008. Where is his question.

I concur, 'ondafarm'. I think that Crede showed the league two things last season:
A) He has finally arrived as one of the elite defensive third basemen in the league, with a newfound stick to boot, but
B) He is also a less sexy free agent, because (as you pointed out) he can miss anywhere from a week to a month with that herniated back of his. He does tend to favor his back, during certain plays, which you are correct about. Is he worth the Chicago White Sox resigning? At this point, it's uncertain. While he would be a sure thing now, there's no telling what his back will do in the future.

I do like the intangible things he brings to the club (rugged, "grinder" edge, sheer willingness to win, and clutch, clutch, CLUTCH). However, would those things justify resigning him for 4-years, and close to $45 million? Probably not, especially since you have a guy like Josh Fields, who is coming up from the same system that Crede came up from. The White Sox do well at growing their talent from the minors. So even if we pass on Crede, be certain that we have fresh young talent ready to step in to take his place.

A Rhyme for you!
We all have a soft spot for Joe, and we don't want him to "say it's so", that he may go. But the truth remains, we've got Jermaine, and Thome is our homey.

Peace out, here's to 2007!

ondafarm
01-17-2007, 12:25 AM
I also think with Fields, Sweeney, Young and Anderson the White Sox may have just the ype of outfielders available to replace Dye and Pods, should Crede be staying for a few more years. Of course, Fields could just go in at third if Joe does leave.

SABRSox
01-17-2007, 12:44 AM
I also think with Fields, Sweeney, Young and Anderson the White Sox may have just the ype of outfielders available to replace Dye and Pods, should Crede be staying for a few more years. Of course, Fields could just go in at third if Joe does leave.

This is very true. The Sox have so many options open to them, they can plan for just about any contingency, except their SS being tried for attempted murder. Let's hope that doesn't happen.

Flight #24
01-17-2007, 10:58 AM
I also think with Fields, Sweeney, Young and Anderson the White Sox may have just the ype of outfielders available to replace Dye and Pods, should Crede be staying for a few more years. Of course, Fields could just go in at third if Joe does leave.

Is there someone I'm missing? Or did we get him back? It'll be key to see Fields get time in LF in ST. If he's getting a lot of that, it's a good sign that they're going to try and keep Joe. If he's primarily at 3B, it makes it seem like their primary concern is getting his D up to speed at 3d.

ondafarm
01-17-2007, 01:48 PM
Is there someone I'm missing? Or did we get him back? It'll be key to see Fields get time in LF in ST. If he's getting a lot of that, it's a good sign that they're going to try and keep Joe. If he's primarily at 3B, it makes it seem like their primary concern is getting his D up to speed at 3d.


Charlotte's roster (http://http://www.minorleaguebaseball.com/app/milb/stats/stats.jsp?sid=milb&t=t_ibp&cid=494) Ryan Sweeney, Ernie Young, Jerry Owens, Josh Fields and Brian Anderson should provide plenty of manpower for the White Sox outfield for most of the next decade.

champagne030
01-17-2007, 01:58 PM
Charlotte's roster (http://http://www.minorleaguebaseball.com/app/milb/stats/stats.jsp?sid=milb&t=t_ibp&cid=494) Ryan Sweeney, Ernie Young, Jerry Owens, Josh Fields and Brian Anderson should provide plenty of manpower for the White Sox outfield for most of the next decade.



You're kidding about Ernie Young, right? He's 37 years old.

Frater Perdurabo
01-17-2007, 02:21 PM
You're kidding about Ernie Young, right? He's 37 years old.

Late bloomer. :redneck

caulfield12
01-17-2007, 02:34 PM
Charlotte's roster (http://http://www.minorleaguebaseball.com/app/milb/stats/stats.jsp?sid=milb&t=t_ibp&cid=494) Ryan Sweeney, Ernie Young, Jerry Owens, Josh Fields and Brian Anderson should provide plenty of manpower for the White Sox outfield for most of the next decade.



Isn't Ernie Young 35-40 years old now?

spiffie
01-17-2007, 03:08 PM
Isn't Ernie Young 35-40 years old now?
Ernest Wesley Young - DOB 7/8/69

soxfan13
01-17-2007, 03:34 PM
Ernest Wesley Young - DOB 7/8/69


Lewis grad he played baseball with a buddy of mine.

esbrechtel
01-17-2007, 03:40 PM
waiting for the bad joke about him not being lewis "young"....:redneck

ode to veeck
01-17-2007, 04:32 PM
Comparing Thome to Crede (& 2nd half details etc) wasn't the point, but while Crede's 2nd half BA is lower Thome only managed to knock in 30, pointing out a key value with Crede at the plate, clutch hitting and knocking in key RBIs. The real point some posters were making is Crede's gotta a problematic stick which is total BS. On the D side, he's been as good as anyone around since his 1st games up. I'll take him over Chavez any day and at the plate as well. Chavez couldn't get a hit with RISP to save his life last year, something missed by Ozzie in a couple of key games in Oakland late last summer.

With SS still a big open question for 2007, would Fields be a consideration to move to his left one position for now?

rdivaldi
01-17-2007, 04:58 PM
With SS still a big open question for 2007, would Fields be a consideration to move to his left one position for now?

Josh is still kind of a project defensively at 3rd (although he is improving pretty well), I don't think we need to mess with his head any more than possible.

caulfield12
01-17-2007, 05:25 PM
Comparing Thome to Crede (& 2nd half details etc) wasn't the point, but while Crede's 2nd half BA is lower Thome only managed to knock in 30, pointing out a key value with Crede at the plate, clutch hitting and knocking in key RBIs. The real point some posters were making is Crede's gotta a problematic stick which is total BS. On the D side, he's been as good as anyone around since his 1st games up. I'll take him over Chavez any day and at the plate as well. Chavez couldn't get a hit with RISP to save his life last year, something missed by Ozzie in a couple of key games in Oakland late last summer.

With SS still a big open question for 2007, would Fields be a consideration to move to his left one position for now?


Not even if he was Turner Gill. Which he's not, athletically.

santo=dorf
01-17-2007, 07:55 PM
Comparing Thome to Crede (& 2nd half details etc) wasn't the point, but while Crede's 2nd half BA is lower Thome only managed to knock in 30, pointing out a key value with Crede at the plate, clutch hitting and knocking in key RBIs. The real point some posters were making is Crede's gotta a problematic stick which is total BS. On the D side, he's been as good as anyone around since his 1st games up. I'll take him over Chavez any day and at the plate as well. Chavez couldn't get a hit with RISP to save his life last year, something missed by Ozzie in a couple of key games in Oakland late last summer.

With SS still a big open question for 2007, would Fields be a consideration to move to his left one position for now?
.....and Crede "only" managed to knock in 37 in the second half. Of course Crede also had a lot better chance of knocking guys in because our good offensive players (Thome, Dye, and Konerko who all hit in front of Crede) were getting on base. Podsednik was not.

Crede sucks with the bat. There's no BS about. Go ahead and make all the fictiousy claims like having more "clutch RBI's" that you can't back up.

I also don't get the point in comparing a player's best year who has only done it once, to a guy who had a down year despite being the player offensive players over their careers
FWIW
RISP Career:
Chavez: .272/.370/.455 40 HR's, 470 RBI's in 1098 at bats
Crede: .291/.350/.470 21 HR's, 230 RBI's in 549 at-bats

Pretty close there, but Chavez has the slight edge. Some how Crede is considered to always be "clutch," yet Chavez isn't and that's based on a down year.

The Crede Kool-aid is flowing by the gallons. :rolleyes:

itsnotrequired
01-17-2007, 08:07 PM
Crede sucks with the bat. There's no BS about.

Was this supposed to be in teal?

santo=dorf
01-17-2007, 08:22 PM
Was this supposed to be in teal?
You have evidence to suggest otherwise?

For a third baseman, he's a below average hitter. He's great defensively and I like him on the team, but I get so SICK of the "clutch," "all-star," "better than A-rod" posts describing Crede. If last year was his peak, he's not good. He has shown of being a decent hitter, but he is WAY inconsistent, and has terrible plate discipline.

If a player hit a 3 run homer in the second inning and his team ends up winning on a walkoff single; who had the more important hit? The home run hitter, or the walk off single dude?

I also can't stop laughing at people criticizing Thome for his second half numbers not matching up to his first half numbers. Shame on Thome for setting such high standards in the first half while carrying this team in April.

Thome didn't get as many RBI's because Pods wasn't getting on base, and his order in the lineup changed thanks to Dye playing out of his mind (which Thome's presence in the lineup helped.) Thome also had a sky high OBP of .420 from a BA of "whopping" .274 (which was still better than Joe's, ode) which tells me pitchers stopped trying to test him.

I really don't get the Crede hype. He's great defensively, his "career" or "breakout" year was slightly above average for a third baseman (but his OBP was 20th amongst 22 qualified third basemen,) and he stole a sliver slugger.

With his bad back, inconsistent career, disappointing bat, and ******* agent, I don't get why the Sox should be in such a huge hurry to sign him to a long term deal. :?:

itsnotrequired
01-17-2007, 08:33 PM
You have evidence to suggest otherwise?

Well, here is where he ranked last season among AL 3rd basemen:

SLG: 3rd
OPS: 3rd
RBI: 3rd
HR: 3rd
AVE: 4th
2B: 4th

If a performance like that "sucks", I wish the entire Sox roster was as bad as him.

Daver
01-17-2007, 08:37 PM
Well, here is where he ranked last season among AL 3rd basemen:

SLG: 3rd
OPS: 3rd
RBI: 3rd
HR: 3rd
AVE: 4th
2B: 4th

If a performance like that "sucks", I wish the entire Sox roster was as bad as him.

Santo is far more concerned with fantasy stats, and how they affect his fantasy team.

itsnotrequired
01-17-2007, 08:41 PM
Santo is far more concerned with fantasy stats, and how they affect his fantasy team.

Sorry, I don't play fantasy baseball.:D:

santo=dorf
01-17-2007, 08:56 PM
Well, here is where he ranked last season among AL 3rd basemen:

SLG: 3rd
OPS: 3rd
RBI: 3rd
HR: 3rd
AVE: 4th
2B: 4th

If a performance like that "sucks", I wish the entire Sox roster was as bad as him.
...and that's the best he has? Compare him to the rest of the MLB. If you really wanted to skew your stats you could've compared him to the AL Central third basemen.

I also get a chuckle of the "fantasy stats" comment. Daver, I doubt you play fantasy baseball, but a 5 X 5 tends to be the most popular format with offensive categories as BA, HR, RBI's, SB, and runs. I'm not using any of those stats when comparing him to other third basemen and hitters.

22 MLB qualified third basemen:
Crede is 11 in BA, 4th in HR, 10 in RBI's, T-21 in SB, T-15th. Those are the fantasy stats, and he's definitely not a top caliber offensive third baseman.

OBP: 20th, SLG: 8th OPS: 9th. So even in his peak season (so far) he was slightly above the middle of the pack for MLB third basemen. I didn't say that season sucked, I said if that's his peak, he sucks.

I'm not going to complain about his lack of stolen bases, but I am concerned about his walk rate decreasing which was bad to begin with. Crede's offensive game is directly related to the balls he puts into play. If he reverts back to anything less than 2006, we have a problem at third.

itsnotrequired
01-17-2007, 09:07 PM
...and that's the best he has?

How are these numbers a problem? You make it sound like Crede is the worst offensive 3B in the league. His offense is above average and his defense is tops in both leagues. All-around, I fail to see a problem with Crede from a performance standpoint.

OBP: 20th, SLG: 8th OPS: 9th. So even in his peak season (so far) he was slightly above the middle of the pack for MLB third basemen. I didn't say that season sucked, I said if that's his peak, he sucks.

8th and 9th places him in the top 1/3rd of all MLB third basemen. How does this possibly demonstrate that he "sucks"?

I'm not going to complain about his lack of stolen bases, but I am concerned about his walk rate decreasing which was bad to begin with. Crede's offensive game is directly related to the balls he puts into play. If he reverts back to anything less than 2006, we have a problem at third.

We have a "problem" at third base? What team are you watching? While his walk rate is declining, his strikeout rate is declining at an even faster rate and has been doing so for the last three seasons.

Crede's name should not even be mentioned when discussing problems with the White Sox.

rdivaldi
01-17-2007, 09:13 PM
Was this supposed to be in teal?

More like in brown. You know, the color of bull----.

Chisox003
01-17-2007, 09:28 PM
Was this supposed to be in teal?
Look at his signature. He's on the "Told you so" bandwagon, so IF (just the slighest chance is all it takes) he is right he can come around and tell everyone he called it. There's a lot of that going around this offseason.

ilsox7
01-17-2007, 09:33 PM
Look at his signature. He's on the "Told you so" bandwagon, so IF (just the slighest chance is all it takes) he is right he can come around and tell everyone he called it. There's a lot of that going around this offseason.

Those types of folks aren't really even fans, IMO.

Vernam
01-17-2007, 09:55 PM
I would bet KW has about the same opinion as I do. I like Crede. He's very good and looks like he's getting better. He's still over-rated by many posters here.I don't know if the statute of limitations on your post has expired, but I want to predict that -- if Kenny decides to trade Crede -- you'll be one of those complaining we didn't get enough in return. :cool:

For the others who think Joe hasn't proven himself yet, all I can say is: You're a tough crowd. Were your ancestors the people who booed Bill Melton because Harry Caray didn't like him?

Vernam

santo=dorf
01-17-2007, 10:08 PM
Look at his signature. He's on the "Told you so" bandwagon, so IF (just the slighest chance is all it takes) he is right he can come around and tell everyone he called it. There's a lot of that going around this offseason.
No I'm not.

I've never been a fan of Garland and not much of a Crede fan either.

I am so sick of the Thome talk, Garcia bashing (folks, his numbers were better than "Ace" Garland last year,) and the negative tone of our bullpen as if we didn't improve over Politte's 8 ERA, or Cotts' inability to get anbody out.

INR, for the third time, I said "if that's his peak, then he sucks." Which means if Crede nevers has a season with the numbers like 2006, and then we would have a problem at third.

While I'm happy Crede has found his way out of the basement of MLB third basemen into the bottom third last season, I'm not going to suck down the kool aid and sign him to a long term deal, or claim he is better than A-Rod, or claim he was robbed of a gold glove and talk about his undeserving silver slugger in the same breath.

ilsox, are you honestly trying to say I'm not a true fan? Even if you are talking about some fans who act like that, I disagree with you. God forbid someone disagree with a move made by management and stand by his or her opinion. It's better than having someone totally flip flopping and going with the crowd (which I'm obviously not doing with my Crede argument. :D: )

ilsox7
01-17-2007, 10:23 PM
ilsox, are you honestly trying to say I'm not a true fan? Even if you are talking about some fans who act like that, I disagree with you. God forbid someone disagree with a move made by management and stand by his or her opinion. It's better than having someone totally flip flopping and going with the crowd (which I'm obviously not doing with my Crede argument. :D: )

I was referring to "I told you so" fans, not anyone specifically. Criticism is just fine. It's when people then come back and tell everyone how right they were. Those same people, like everyone else, are wrong a lot. So I just cannot stand when people come back with an "I told you so."

It's kind of like when the ship was supposedly sinking in 2005. Some of the people who jumped ship came back in full force with signatures and whatnot proclaiming how they never stopped believing! They had, in fact, stopped a few weeks prior. And they would have spent an entire winter telling us how they were right and the team needed to do this or that and they failed and blah blah blah.

/rant

itsnotrequired
01-17-2007, 10:30 PM
I am so sick of the Thome talk, Garcia bashing (folks, his numbers were better than "Ace" Garland last year,) and the negative tone of our bullpen as if we didn't improve over Politte's 8 ERA, or Cotts' inability to get anbody out.

INR, for the third time, I said "if that's his peak, then he sucks." Which means if Crede nevers has a season with the numbers like 2006, and then we would have a problem at third.

Some of Garcia's numbers were better than Garland's and some were worse. Which numbers are you referring to? If you are talking about IP, H, K, TB, WHIP, SLG and OBA, then I would agree with you. If you are talking about W, L, ERA, R, ER, HR, HBP, BB, SB and CS, then I would disagree with you. Remember, Garcia gave up the most stolen bases of any pitcher in the majors last year. Also, the Sox paid Garcia $9 million last season and only paid Galand $7 million. Who did they get the most return on their investment for?

As for Crede, if he plays in 2007 at 2005 offensive levels and flashes the leather like he has for his whole career, would you qualify this as a "problem"? And if his best year is indeed 2006, how does this possibly prove that he "sucks"?

You also mentioned the changes to the bullpen. As of today, which is the bigger question mark for 2007, the bullpen or Crede? The bullpen takes the cake on this one and I LIKE the changes to the bullpen! What is this, Shoota-ville? Where is all this Crede bashing coming from?

ondafarm
01-17-2007, 11:44 PM
With SS still a big open question for 2007, would Fields be a consideration to move to his left one position for now?

The 3B to SS switch is a lot harder than it appears. SS requires more athleticism than any other position in baseball. 3B requires reflexes and only one directionality of weight shift. SS requires a flexibility to move in all directions and multiple weight shifts. It also requires speed and reflexes. Moving SS to 3B is much easier.

I don't recommend moving a developing guy from 3B to SS at any time.

drftnaway
01-18-2007, 12:26 AM
I don't know if the statute of limitations on your post has expired, but I want to predict that -- if Kenny decides to trade Crede -- you'll be one of those complaining we didn't get enough in return. :cool:

For the others who think Joe hasn't proven himself yet, all I can say is: You're a tough crowd. Were your ancestors the people who booed Bill Melton because Harry Caray didn't like him?

Vernam

You can predict whatever you like.

churlish
01-18-2007, 12:30 AM
While I'm happy Crede has found his way out of the basement of MLB third basemen into the bottom third last season, I'm not going to suck down the kool aid and sign him to a long term deal, or claim he is better than A-Rod, or claim he was robbed of a gold glove and talk about his undeserving silver slugger in the same breath.

How was he in the bottom third?! Your own stats put him well in well above the top half. He's a power-hitting third baseman who hits for a solid average. Not too mention his excellent defense.

NorthSideSox72
01-18-2007, 08:57 AM
You have evidence to suggest otherwise?

For a third baseman, he's a below average hitter. He's great defensively and I like him on the team, but I get so SICK of the "clutch," "all-star," "better than A-rod" posts describing Crede.

Clutch = .343 BA/RISP

Hitmen77
01-18-2007, 09:03 AM
While I'm happy Crede has found his way out of the basement of MLB third basemen into the bottom third last season, I'm not going to suck down the kool aid and sign him to a long term deal, or claim he is better than A-Rod, ...

Please list all TWENTY major league 3rd basemen you'd rather have than Joe Crede.

caulfield12
01-18-2007, 09:51 AM
Not to mention he's in the prime of his career and has a very affordable contract.

The only ones (this has been written about before) that you can clearly argue are...

A-Rod
David Wright
Cabrera (but lousy defense)
A. Ramirez (see above)
Rolen (when healthy, but not based on 06 season)
Chavez (before last season)

And if someone argues Brandon Inge, Nick Punto or Mark Teahen, I'll scream.

champagne030
01-18-2007, 09:58 AM
Not to mention he's in the prime of his career and has a very affordable contract.

The only ones (this has been written about before) that you can clearly argue are...

A-Rod
David Wright
Cabrera (but lousy defense)
A. Ramirez (see above)
Rolen (when healthy, but not based on 06 season)
Chavez (before last season)

And if someone argues Brandon Inge, Nick Punto or Mark Teahen, I'll scream.

Ryan Zimmerman.

caulfield12
01-18-2007, 10:04 AM
See me after 2008 on Zimmerman.

He played on a team with zero pressure. That means about as much to me as what Kip Wells did in 02/03 with Pittsburgh. Crede has proven himself in the playoffs and over the last 2 seasons.

And some will probably mention Blalock, although he severely regressed last season (Jaramillo came close to throwing in the towel because he became so pull happy)...Pittsburgh as a nice young 3B, but he's not a power hitter and still has to prove himself.

Some wise aleck will probably say Adrian Beltre based on one season w/ the Dodgers that got him the M's deal.

NorthSideSox72
01-18-2007, 10:14 AM
Not to mention he's in the prime of his career and has a very affordable contract.

The only ones (this has been written about before) that you can clearly argue are...

A-Rod
David Wright
Cabrera (but lousy defense)
A. Ramirez (see above)
Rolen (when healthy, but not based on 06 season)
Chavez (before last season)

And if someone argues Brandon Inge, Nick Punto or Mark Teahen, I'll scream.
Brandon Inge.



*waits for scream*

Craig Grebeck
01-18-2007, 10:27 AM
Teahen
Glaus
Youkilis (when playing third, which he probably will after this season)
Alex Gordon

ode to veeck
01-18-2007, 12:43 PM
I've never been a fan of Garland and not much of a Crede fan either.


That's more than obvious and the only truth in this whole thread. Leave the broken sabremetrics / too much kool aid out of it then


While I'm happy Crede has found his way out of the basement of MLB third basemen into the bottom third last season


Basement of MLB 3B!?!? Bottom Third!?! Sorry but *** and time to use the ignore botton. 9th in OPS and .242 BA RISP ain't even bad sabremetrics, just bad kool aid. It's a sabremetrics attitude that's also focusing singularly on offense stats, not performance, and I'm not willing to give up Joe's year in, year out outstanding D, which isn't even being valued in the discussion (well OK he ain't Brooks, but there ain't too many bodies, maybe epsilon, between the two on D)

Take the list below and let us totally biased unabashed Crede over raters and anti-sabremetricians play the Devil's Advocate:

A-Rod (how do his numbers and big clutch hits compare to Crede's in the playoffs?)
David Wright (well OK, got a decent one here)
Cabrera (lousy defense--why give up the D unless we have too?!)
A. Ramirez (see above)
Rolen (comparable only if returns to previous form)
Chavez (see above)

Yeah, Fields is learning 3rd at Charlotte, because with Crede's back there is a need for contingencies, but we really do not have problems at 3rd as long as Joe's healthy and still on the team. Let's focus on finding which of the young pitchers are gonna work out and who's gonna play short (the real issues for the '07 Sox).

maurice
01-18-2007, 01:05 PM
22 MLB qualified third basemen:
Crede is 11 in BA, 4th in HR, 10 in RBI's,...OBP: 20th, SLG: 8th OPS: 9th....
I didn't say that season sucked, I said if that's his peak, he sucks.
And you also said:
For a third baseman, he's a below average hitter.
And:
Crede has found his way out of the basement of MLB third basemen into the bottom third last season
The problem is that none of these things are true. Even if 2006 is his "peak," a healthy Crede is unlikely to regress to the bottom 1/3 of MLB in offense, IMO . . . and he'll always be in the top 1/3 in terms of defense.

In other words, if Crede "sucks," then most of MLB sucks, because he's easily an average-to-above-average player.

mjmcend
01-18-2007, 01:24 PM
In other words, if Crede "sucks," then most of MLB sucks, because he's easily an average-to-above-average player.

People around here tend to overvalue Joe, including the people who claim that Crede is better than ARod. However, this guy is going to the other extreme in his bashing of Crede.


Crede was an average to slightly below average third basemen for most of his career. Last year he was in the top 20% of third sackers. He is not a hall of famer or even a perennial all star, as some claim, but he is still a good ball player.

ode to veeck
01-18-2007, 01:55 PM
People around here tend to overvalue Joe

Nope, some people around here tend to undervalue Joe, even with the likes of Shoota gone.

Crede was an average to slightly below average third basemen for most of his career.

Joe's D has never been anything below well above average, so slightly below average ain't gonna cut it among the totally biased fans

caulfield12
01-18-2007, 02:02 PM
Teahen
Glaus
Youkilis (when playing third, which he probably will after this season)
Alex Gordon


Glaus, maybe, when/if healthy...
Teahen has had ONE good "half season"
Youkilis (you're a victim of the Fenway/Gammons hype machine...you might as well say Hatteberg and Durazo too)
Gordon hasn't had a single MLB at-bat

mjmcend
01-18-2007, 02:41 PM
Nope, some people around here tend to undervalue Joe, even with the likes of Shoota gone.

I don't believe that the ARod Megathread is still around (at least I couldn't find it), but there were more than one poster claiming the Crede was better than ARod (without even taking salary into account). If that is not the definition of overvaluing your own players then I don't know what is.

caulfield12
01-18-2007, 03:00 PM
I don't believe that the ARod Megathread is still around (at least I couldn't find it), but there were more than one poster claiming the Crede was better than ARod (without even taking salary into account). If that is not the definition of overvaluing your own players then I don't know what is.


It's not about overvaluing Joe...it's more that there's no guarantee having A-Rod on your team means you'll win anything, or Griffey in his prime. Not only that, but having a team comprised of All-Stars and "big egos" can actually have a detrimental effect, as the Yankees have experienced since the 2000 season with their teams consistently failing despite having the highest payroll.

You can argue the merits of paying $15 (or $25 million) to A-Rod versus $5 million to Crede as well, in terms of salary allocation.

But no, Crede is not a better player, you can't argue that realistically. A-Rod is the unquestioned best player of the 1995-2005 era with Bonds now disqualified from consideration. You CAN say that Crede would be better to have on your team, that 3-5 Credes would be better than one A-Rod.

ode to veeck
01-18-2007, 03:14 PM
You CAN say that Crede would be better to have on your team, that 3-5 Credes would be better than one A-Rod.

... or that Crede's been more successfull in the playoffs in only about 1/3 the ABs (that AROD's had).

SBSoxFan
01-18-2007, 04:00 PM
... or that Crede's been more successfull in the playoffs in only about 1/3 the ABs (that AROD's had).

Or that Crede looks better in a mullet. :redneck

Jjav829
01-18-2007, 04:13 PM
Teahen
Glaus
Youkilis (when playing third, which he probably will after this season)
Alex Gordon

Teahen better than Joe Crede?

You want to at least let the guy have a good full...oh wait, he was drafted by Billy Beane. Nevermind...:rolleyes:

mjmcend
01-18-2007, 04:57 PM
It's not about overvaluing Joe...it's more that there's no guarantee having A-Rod on your team means you'll win anything, or Griffey in his prime. Not only that, but having a team comprised of All-Stars and "big egos" can actually have a detrimental effect, as the Yankees have experienced since the 2000 season with their teams consistently failing despite having the highest payroll.

Having Crede on your team doesn't guarentee winning either. The only 100% guarantee in baseball is that the Cubs won't make the Series.

I don't buy the "big ego" arguement for why the Yankee's have failed. That is unless "big ego" is a term that means crappy, old pitchers and horrible defense.

You can argue the merits of paying $15 (or $25 million) to A-Rod versus $5 million to Crede as well, in terms of salary allocation.

I agree the Crede is a much better value at 5 mil than Arod at 20. Arod is not 4 times the player than Crede.

But no, Crede is not a better player, you can't argue that realistically. A-Rod is the unquestioned best player of the 1995-2005 era with Bonds now disqualified from consideration. You CAN say that Crede would be better to have on your team, that 3-5 Credes would be better than one A-Rod.

I agree that Crede is a quality (actually very good) ball player and a huge asset to our team. However, he is not a perennial all star, nor one of the the greats in the game.

mjmcend
01-18-2007, 05:07 PM
... or that Crede's been more successfull in the playoffs in only about 1/3 the ABs (that AROD's had).

ARod .280/.362/.485
Crede .289/.319/.622

Crede was great in '05. ARod, however has been pretty good in the playoffs as well. Don't listen to ABC/ESPN.

ode to veeck
01-18-2007, 05:38 PM
ARod .280/.362/.485
Crede .289/.319/.622

Crede was great in '05. ARod, however has been pretty good in the playoffs as well. Don't listen to ABC/ESPN.

Arod hasn't gotten the job done with runners on nearly as efficiently as Crede, who has nearly the same HR/RBI in ~1/3 the playoff ABs.

Arod's been 3/29 or .103BA in the playoffs the last two years, but I agree the Yank-Me's would be stupid to get rid of him for this. Arod had more playoff success at the plate earlier in his career, including Seattle's win over the Sox in '00.

Mohoney
01-18-2007, 10:04 PM
This was pretty much the last big question, and it's been answered.

Let's rock and roll with this group in '07, unless a more reliable option at SS crops up out of nowhere.

Hitmen77
01-19-2007, 11:33 AM
Not to mention he's in the prime of his career and has a very affordable contract.

The only ones (this has been written about before) that you can clearly argue are...

A-Rod
David Wright
Cabrera (but lousy defense)
A. Ramirez (see above)
Rolen (when healthy, but not based on 06 season)
Chavez (before last season)

And if someone argues Brandon Inge, Nick Punto or Mark Teahen, I'll scream.

To be honest, I'd take Crede over Ramirez - and I'm trying not to let my anti-Cub bias influence my opinion.

If I were manager and could choose between the two, i wouldn't give up Joe's defense for any improvement Ramirez bring on offense. Ramirez would get the nod offensively, but it's not like we're talking about the difference between Uribe and Michael Young in terms of offense. Joe's better defense wins out between the two.