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View Full Version : Dave Van Dyke article today - go figure


bryPt
01-12-2007, 07:40 AM
http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/cs-070111pitchers,1,7255233.story?coll=chi-sportstop-hed

"So it should not be surprising that Sox general manager Ken Williams WILL NOT try to re-sign the team's recognized pitching leader after giving him a chance for an extension last spring."

I am sorry, did Kenny actually say that somewhere? Was this an exact quote that Dave got from Kenny? Dave actually quotes Kenny in the article, which is shocking because I can't remember the last time a Cubune employee talked to the Sox in any way, but no where does it say that kenny will not even try to resign Mark? So let me get this straight, Kenny has thrown in the towel with Mark and will not even discuss a contract with him until the first day of free agency?

Most shlock reporting from the kings of crappy journalism, the Cubune. What a surprise.

soxtalker
01-12-2007, 09:02 AM
http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/cs-070111pitchers,1,7255233.story?coll=chi-sportstop-hed

"So it should not be surprising that Sox general manager Ken Williams WILL NOT try to re-sign the team's recognized pitching leader after giving him a chance for an extension last spring."

I am sorry, did Kenny actually say that somewhere? Was this an exact quote that Dave got from Kenny? Dave actually quotes Kenny in the article, which is shocking because I can't remember the last time a Cubune employee talked to the Sox in any way, but no where does it say that kenny will not even try to resign Mark? So let me get this straight, Kenny has thrown in the towel with Mark and will not even discuss a contract with him until the first day of free agency?

Most shlock reporting from the kings of crappy journalism, the Cubune. What a surprise.

Well, KW came pretty close in his interview (http://670thescore.com/includes/news_items/56/1571/kennywilliams13.mp3) last week on WSCR. I don't recall the exact wording, but it was something to the effect that they'd tried to sign him last year and currently it would be out of the question. Now, one could argue that the exact wording left some doubt. (Don't use my attempt at paraphrasing; go back and listen to it.) But it isn't hard to see how a reporter could come away with that conclusion.

A MB contract extension is very difficult from all perspectives. His poor second half adds a lot of risk to any contract right now, and someone (Mark, the team, or a combination) has to assume this risk.

Jaffar
01-12-2007, 09:13 AM
I think KW is just postioning himself properly. Zambrano will be able to demand whatever he wishes because the Cubs absolutely need him while KW is putting himself in the position to say, hey Mark, it'd be great if you stayed but if not that's ok. It's all business and KW is appearing to be pretty good at that.

veeter
01-12-2007, 09:36 AM
I think any quote from Kenny, either in a paper or on the radio, is posturing. What goes on behind the scenes is the truth. If anyone remembers though, with Garland and Contreras after the W.S., Kenny said, "you're either with us, or you're not", ...they both signed. Now since then, the money has gone crazy, so the Sox may not even make a competitive offer. It just irritates me when a "reporter" writes something as fact, when it hasn't happened yet. Kenny doesn't really have to compete against all of baseball, just the central. Until the Twins and Tigers start making outlandish signings, the Sox will be just fine.

WhiteSox5187
01-12-2007, 10:13 AM
Here are the quotes (I have the article in front of me). "With the market as it is, I don't anticpate making that overture again." To which Van Dyck says "In other words Buerhle's $9.5 million this year will be his last salary from the Sox who should have younger (and cheaper) options by next year."

Williams goes on to say "I'd rather take a [young] guy with a high ceiling than take a guy who I have to overpay to make it look like I'm trying." (Which is apparently NOT the philosophy of the Cubs). Williams ads that he doesn't "blame [Buerhle] him one bit for the position he has taken. It's just buisness."

When asked why he didn't trade Buerhle instead of McCarthy Williams responds "Because there's nothing out there that would give us an equal chance and set us up for the future. I think [Buerhle] is going to have his best year ever. The bottom line, and maybe it has been lost in transition, is that we're still focused on winning in '07. As it stood at the end of [last] season, we would have been taking $50 million for a rotation out of a $100 million payroll. It just wasn't going to work out."

Now, here is MY take on these quotes. There are essentially two ways to look at it. When Williams says that he doesn't "anticipate on making that overture again" he is either saying that he is flat out not going to sign Buerhle (which is certainly what Van Dyke is implying). OR he is saying that Buerhle will get no offer in spring training and the Sox will wait until the end of the season to decide. Personally, I think the second is much more likely. This is essentially what KW did with Konerko is 2005. They tried to re-sign him, got a little worried and pulled back and played wait and see. Now, this wound up costing the Sox more money, and truth be told I think that if you ask KW he would say that it is money well spent. It is ludicrious to offer Buerhle Zito money now following the second half he had. Now, if Buerhle comes back to form in '07, I think that while KW will NEVER offer Buerhle or anyone else the seven year deal that Zito got, maybe KW would be willing to give Buerhle Konerko money.

Historically, of course, the Sox don't spend that kind of money on pitchers (exception being Jamie Navarro). And I understand the skeptism, however, I do believe that unless the Sox pull another White Flag trade, Comiskey will be selling out for most games and that the Sox will be in the middle of the pennant race. This of course means more revenue for the Sox to make and subsequently spend on Buerhle. If the Sox make the playoffs (which I think they have a great chance at doing) they will have even more revenue which means more money for Buerhle. Which is essentially a repeat of what happened with Konerko at the end of the '05 season and I do think that Buerhle would re-sign at a "hometown discount."

There is another interesting quote from Kenny where he talks about cutting payroll because last season he had about fifty million tied up in pitching on a hundred million payroll. Obviously, I'm not very good at math, because I just suggested that he use any "freed up" money to resign Buerhle. But to resign Buerhle would be using money from the '07 season. By cutting payroll in the Freddy trade he has more money from the '06 season to spend. My theory where this money is going? Joe Crede. This sounds like a "I heard from my brother's girlfriend's cousin's hairdresser" kinda thing, but my dad who is very close friends with both David Dombrowski and Walt Jocketty, the GMs of the Tigers and the Cardinals, my dad said that they told him that the White Sox are going to attempt to resign Crede within the next couple of weeks or days to avoid going to arbitration (again spelling). Mr. Dombrowski told my dad that the Garcia trade was done to save up money for the Crede deal and that it is a pretty much done deal. Dombrowski said that in a conversation with KW about Crede, Crede was more or less saying "This is what I want" without any "Boras talk." Like, when the Sox offered Maggs that big extension in '04 Maggs response was "Well, we'll see what the market dictates" which is "Boras talk."

Now, this is a loooong post with hardly any useful information and a lot of ideal speculation, but from my understanding that's what this forum is all about! Those are my ideas (well, except the last part) and feel free to rip 'em to shreads!!!

maurice
01-12-2007, 11:10 AM
OR he is saying that Buerhle will get no offer in spring training and the Sox will wait until the end of the season to decide. Personally, I think the second is much more likely. This is essentially what KW did with Konerko is 2005.

Excellent point. It's just the latest example of a Trib writer being immune to context.

Conidering KW's history, KW's quotes, and Buehrle's quotes together, it looks like we have another Konerko situation on our hands. No negotiations until he hits FA. Then, Buehrle will give KW a chance to match. Will he match? I have no idea, but the mediots need to stop acting like it's a foregone conclusion and somehow relevant to the success of the '07 club.

I'd rather take a [young] guy with a high ceiling than take a guy who I have to overpay to make it look like I'm trying.

Me too, but I don't thnk he's talking about Buehrle. I think he probably was talking about signings like the ones the Cubs made, and that it was taken out of context. KW would rather have Danks at essentially no salary than Marquis at his ridiculous salary.

[I traded McCarthy instead of Buehrle, because] I think [Buerhle] is going to have his best year ever. The bottom line, and maybe it has been lost in transition, is that we're still focused on winning in '07.

Thank you, KW. I've been saying this for weeks.

caulfield12
01-12-2007, 11:24 AM
I think any quote from Kenny, either in a paper or on the radio, is posturing. What goes on behind the scenes is the truth. If anyone remembers though, with Garland and Contreras after the W.S., Kenny said, "you're either with us, or you're not", ...they both signed. Now since then, the money has gone crazy, so the Sox may not even make a competitive offer. It just irritates me when a "reporter" writes something as fact, when it hasn't happened yet. Kenny doesn't really have to compete against all of baseball, just the central. Until the Twins and Tigers start making outlandish signings, the Sox will be just fine.


Well, you can make an argument that Sheffield (along with the talent they gave up), I-Rod, Guillen and Magglio are all pretty risky contract for aging veterans. The only one of those four I can imagine on the White Sox is Guilllen, and he's had quite a few injury problems throughout his career.

caulfield12
01-12-2007, 11:31 AM
Here are the quotes (I have the article in front of me). "With the market as it is, I don't anticpate making that overture again." To which Van Dyck says "In other words Buerhle's $9.5 million this year will be his last salary from the Sox who should have younger (and cheaper) options by next year."

Williams goes on to say "I'd rather take a [young] guy with a high ceiling than take a guy who I have to overpay to make it look like I'm trying." (Which is apparently NOT the philosophy of the Cubs). Williams ads that he doesn't "blame [Buerhle] him one bit for the position he has taken. It's just buisness."

When asked why he didn't trade Buerhle instead of McCarthy Williams responds "Because there's nothing out there that would give us an equal chance and set us up for the future. I think [Buerhle] is going to have his best year ever. The bottom line, and maybe it has been lost in transition, is that we're still focused on winning in '07. As it stood at the end of [last] season, we would have been taking $50 million for a rotation out of a $100 million payroll. It just wasn't going to work out."

Now, here is MY take on these quotes. There are essentially two ways to look at it. When Williams says that he doesn't "anticipate on making that overture again" he is either saying that he is flat out not going to sign Buerhle (which is certainly what Van Dyke is implying). OR he is saying that Buerhle will get no offer in spring training and the Sox will wait until the end of the season to decide. Personally, I think the second is much more likely. This is essentially what KW did with Konerko is 2005. They tried to re-sign him, got a little worried and pulled back and played wait and see. Now, this wound up costing the Sox more money, and truth be told I think that if you ask KW he would say that it is money well spent. It is ludicrious to offer Buerhle Zito money now following the second half he had. Now, if Buerhle comes back to form in '07, I think that while KW will NEVER offer Buerhle or anyone else the seven year deal that Zito got, maybe KW would be willing to give Buerhle Konerko money.

Historically, of course, the Sox don't spend that kind of money on pitchers (exception being Jamie Navarro). And I understand the skeptism, however, I do believe that unless the Sox pull another White Flag trade, Comiskey will be selling out for most games and that the Sox will be in the middle of the pennant race. This of course means more revenue for the Sox to make and subsequently spend on Buerhle. If the Sox make the playoffs (which I think they have a great chance at doing) they will have even more revenue which means more money for Buerhle. Which is essentially a repeat of what happened with Konerko at the end of the '05 season and I do think that Buerhle would re-sign at a "hometown discount."

There is another interesting quote from Kenny where he talks about cutting payroll because last season he had about fifty million tied up in pitching on a hundred million payroll. Obviously, I'm not very good at math, because I just suggested that he use any "freed up" money to resign Buerhle. But to resign Buerhle would be using money from the '07 season. By cutting payroll in the Freddy trade he has more money from the '06 season to spend. My theory where this money is going? Joe Crede. This sounds like a "I heard from my brother's girlfriend's cousin's hairdresser" kinda thing, but my dad who is very close friends with both David Dombrowski and Walt Jocketty, the GMs of the Tigers and the Cardinals, my dad said that they told him that the White Sox are going to attempt to resign Crede within the next couple of weeks or days to avoid going to arbitration (again spelling). Mr. Dombrowski told my dad that the Garcia trade was done to save up money for the Crede deal and that it is a pretty much done deal. Dombrowski said that in a conversation with KW about Crede, Crede was more or less saying "This is what I want" without any "Boras talk." Like, when the Sox offered Maggs that big extension in '04 Maggs response was "Well, we'll see what the market dictates" which is "Boras talk."

Now, this is a loooong post with hardly any useful information and a lot of ideal speculation, but from my understanding that's what this forum is all about! Those are my ideas (well, except the last part) and feel free to rip 'em to shreads!!!

If we're going to go with young pitchers, it's even more important to keep Crede, unless Fields makes a significant progression.

We've seen in the past when the left side of the infield (1998-2002) led to a significant number of errors, because we've traditionally had more "contact" pitchers than strikeout pitchers, like Vazquez.

There's a very thin line between greatness and a 5.00 ERA (see Baldwin's All-Star year)....not sure how good an outfielder Fields can be, and whether he will be legitimate 30 homer threat without striking out 150 times and hitting .230-.250 (essentially another Crede his first three years, minus the defense).

esbrechtel
01-12-2007, 12:22 PM
i 100% agree that if the sox are going to rely on young pitching they need mature and proven fielders...crede and konerko on the corners is a great base '05 uribe would also be great to have back, with the $ KW is saving on pitchers should be used to lock up crede even if it only be for his defensive production

CWSpalehoseCWS
01-12-2007, 03:43 PM
Shouldn't a journalist know that you NEVER use more than 1 negative in a sentance...

FedEx227
01-12-2007, 04:57 PM
Shouldn't a journalist know that you NEVER use more than 1 negative in a sentance...

I don't remember seeing a mention of a journalist.

Dave Van Dyke works for the Tribune.

Taliesinrk
01-12-2007, 05:10 PM
Shouldn't a journalist know that you NEVER use more than 1 negative in a sentance...


i would think the journalist would spell sentence correctly... half-joking..

JB98
01-12-2007, 05:17 PM
Shouldn't a journalist know that you NEVER use more than 1 negative in a sentance...

I have NEVER seen the Cubs win the World Series, and I NEVER will.

Do I have to hand back my journalism degree now? :D:

Domeshot17
01-12-2007, 07:13 PM
I looked at the thread title, and did the same thing that I do when I see the words Dayn Perry and MLBTRADERUMORS.COM. Realized it is baseless bull**** and saved 5 minutes of my life.