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View Full Version : Hall of Fame: Who's in who should be out


eastchicagosoxfan
01-10-2007, 01:14 PM
All of this Hall of Fame talk has me thinking ( something's burning ) who's in the Hall who really shouldn't be? There have been plenty of controversial selections over the years, especially by the Veterans Committee. I saw where Albert Belle will not be on the ballot. I'm not a Belle backer, but it gave me something to think about. Hack Wilson, to be precise. Both played 12 years, had some monster years, and then quickly faded away. Wilson's in, Belle isn't. Belle has better career stats. Should Wilson be in? Or put a different way, could Wilson get elected today? I'm skeptical, to say the least.
Who are some other guys who's election should be reviewed?

itsnotrequired
01-10-2007, 01:20 PM
Well, I suppose once you are in they aren't going to pull anyone out. The VC choices are rather chaotic but in terms of the Baseball Writer votes, Bruce Sutter is a fairly borderline selection, IMHO. Same with Sandberg.

AuroraSoxFan
01-10-2007, 01:23 PM
Phil Rizzuto. Class act, good guy. But 38 career HR, 273 career avg, no gold gloves, 355 career slg, only 5 ASG appearances. not HOF credentials.

itsnotrequired
01-10-2007, 01:24 PM
Phil Rizzuto. Class act, good guy. But 38 career HR, 273 career avg, no gold gloves, 355 career slg, only 5 ASG appearances. not HOF credentials.

He was a VC selection. Many of their selections are fairly dubious.

PaulDrake
01-10-2007, 01:46 PM
Phil Rizzuto. Class act, good guy. But 38 career HR, 273 career avg, no gold gloves, 355 career slg, only 5 ASG appearances. not HOF credentials. There was no such thing as a Gold Glove when Rizzuto played, but otherwise you're right. This is just another example of the power of the New York media. Rizzuto is far from the only one in the Baseball HOF who should raise an eyebrow.

eastchicagosoxfan
01-10-2007, 02:59 PM
Well, I suppose once you are in they aren't going to pull anyone out. The VC choices are rather chaotic but in terms of the Baseball Writer votes, Bruce Sutter is a fairly borderline selection, IMHO. Same with Sandberg.
You really think Sandberg is that weak of a choice?

AJ Hellraiser
01-10-2007, 04:06 PM
OZZIE SMITH!!! I have said since his election that it was a popularity vote...

Don't get me wrong, I am not arguing with his outstanding defense... However, since when does one thing get a player in the HOF? He couldn't hit a lick and was really a 1-tool ballplayer on the new 5-tool rating system...

He got in because he could do a little backflip, had a cool nickname, and never turned down an interview request...

spawn
01-10-2007, 04:09 PM
OZZIE SMITH!!! I have said since his election that it was a popularity vote...

Don't get me wrong, I am not arguing with his outstanding defense... However, since when does one thing get a player in the HOF? He couldn't hit a lick and was really a 1-tool ballplayer on the new 5-tool rating system...

He got in because he could do a little backflip, had a cool nickname, and never turned down an interview request...
As much as it pains me to say it, Ron Santo is more deserving than Ozzie Smith.

itsnotrequired
01-10-2007, 04:14 PM
You really think Sandberg is that weak of a choice?

I said it was borderline (as his 77% voting result indicates). He had great defense and a few outstanding offensive seasons but overall, I don't feel he was up to HoF standards. Just my $0.02.

Craig Grebeck
01-10-2007, 05:35 PM
Bill freakin' Mazeroski

TheVulture
01-10-2007, 06:39 PM
As much as it pains me to say it, Ron Santo is more deserving than Ozzie Smith.
I guess Aparicio and Brooks Robinson shouldn't be in either, then. In my opinion, those guys are/were the "gold standards" of defensive ability, that's 99% of the reason that they're in the hall, and that's good enough for the hall for me.

Also, in response to previous post, Ozzie Smith was a 3-tool player: great glove, great arm, great speed.

AJ Hellraiser
01-10-2007, 08:08 PM
I guess Aparicio and Brooks Robinson shouldn't be in either, then. In my opinion, those guys are/were the "gold standards" of defensive ability, that's 99% of the reason that they're in the hall, and that's good enough for the hall for me.

Also, in response to previous post, Ozzie Smith was a 3-tool player: great glove, great arm, great speed.

Aparicio I'll agree with you about... no way can you say the same about Brooks Robinson.. Brooks had many years where he hit well over .300 while Ozzie Smith had 1 (I think, it might be none)... and as far as tools go, maybe he was a 2-tool guy....

ondafarm
01-10-2007, 10:04 PM
What is the definition of a Hall of Famer?

To me, he's a guy who in his prime is clearly ackowledged as the best and performs at a high level for a long time. Not just one great year, several great years (perhaps not all consecutive) backed by a bunch of really solid performances, perhaps backed by a few productive ones.

Tony Gwynn and Cal Ripken Jr are prototypical HOF guys.

So is Frank Thomas.

Sorry Rizzutto, you don't qualify.

SouthSide_HitMen
01-10-2007, 11:31 PM
Catchers: Rick Ferrell, Ray Schalk
First Basemen: Jake Beckley, Jim Bottomley, Roger Connor, George Kelly, Tony Perez
Second Basemen: Johnny Evers, Bill Mazeroski, Bid McPhee, Red Schoendienst
Shortstop: Dave Bancroft, Travis Jackson, Joe Sewell, Joe Tinker, Bobby Wallace, Monte Ward
Third Basemen: George Kell, Freddy Lindstrom
Leftfielders: Chick Hafey, Heinie Manush, Jim O'Rourke
Centerfielders: Earle Combs, Lloyd Waner
Rightfielders: Kiki Cuyler, Harry Hooper, King Kelly, Chuck Klein, Tommy McCarthy, Ross Youngs

Upper Tier - What the HOF is about (and who I would consider among current players or players not in):

Catchers (9): Bench, Berra, Campanella, Carter, Cochrene, Dickey, Fisk, Gibson, Hartnett. (Torre, Piazza, Pudge Rodriguez)

First Baseman (9): Anson, Foxx, Gerhig, Greenberg, Killebrew, Leonard, McCovey, Mize, Murray (Thomas, Bagwell, Pujols)

Second Baseman (9): Carew, Collins, Frisch, Gehringer, Honrsby, Lajoie, Morgan, Robinson, Sandberg (Biggio, Alomar)

Shortstop (11): Aparicio, Appling, Banks, Boudreau, Cronin, Lloyd, Reese, Ripken, Vaughan, Wagner, Yount (Trammell, Jeter, A. Rodriguez)

Third Baseman (9): Baker, Boggs, Brett, Collins, Dandridge, Matthews, Robinson, Schmidt, Traynor (Santo)

Left Fielders (9): Brock, Kiner, Medwick, Musial, Simmons, Stargell, B. Williams, T. Williams, Yastrzemski (Bonds, Henderson, Raines, Minoso)

Center Fielders (10): Charleston, Cobb, DiMaggio, Doby, Hamilton, Mantle, Mays, Snider, Speaker, Stearnes (Griffey Jr.)

Rightfielders (12): Aaron, Clemente, Crawford, Gwynn, Jackson, Kaline, Ott, Robinson, Ruth, Slaughter, Waner, Winfield (Rose)

DH (1): Molitor

In addition there are owners, managers, umpires, announcers, writers who are in there that I really don't consider on par with players. The Negro League players were added via a few special committee ballots. The first one a few decades ago inducted the main stars. The 2006 additions were questionable in several instances (as well as two omissions - O'Neil and of course Minoso). There are several borderline players (not elite though one of the best) which I left off of both lists.

I'll save pitchers for another time.

chaerulez
01-11-2007, 02:09 AM
Phil Rizzuto is one of the worst players in the HOF.

PennStater98r
01-11-2007, 09:51 AM
OZZIE SMITH!!! I have said since his election that it was a popularity vote...

Don't get me wrong, I am not arguing with his outstanding defense... However, since when does one thing get a player in the HOF? He couldn't hit a lick and was really a 1-tool ballplayer on the new 5-tool rating system...

He got in because he could do a little backflip, had a cool nickname, and never turned down an interview request...

I disagree - if Smith does not deserve to be in, get Aparicio and Maz out too. The thing is - Smith was not one dimensional. By the end of his career he was a pretty good hitter. I believe he was runner up for MVP in 1987 - and in the top 25 six times - and that's not to mention that he made the All Star team 15 years in a 16 year span - including a 12 consecutive run. Remember boys and girls, this is the Hall of Fame, so popularity should play a factor in whether you're deserving or not.

Two players that he matches closely up to are Luis Aparicio and Nellie Fox - from a career statistics perspective.

Now, is he an overwhelming choice? No, but I think he deserves to be there. To paraphrase Rob Neyer, a baseball player's worth/value should be tied most closely to his contribution to Runs Scored (or Runs prevented). Smith was a tremendous Shortstop who actually did his job - what was most expected of him - which was play great defense - oh and average scoring 80 Runs a season for 19 seasons. If one were to add the number of runs he scored + the number or runs he personally prevented - I'd say he was very valuable - Hall of Fame valuable.

Oh, by the way - Brooks Robinson only hit above .300 twices (Smith once), never scored more than 100 runs and only drove him 100+ runs twice. Aparicio only hit above .300 once and never scored more than 100 runs in spite of stealing 25 or more bases in a season ten times. Finally - Nellie Fox (the most deserving of the bunch in my opinion and the one it took the longest to get in) hit over .300 six times, scored 100+ runs four times AND won an MVP in 1959 (even though he arguably had better seasons in 1953-1958).

It's obvious that everyone has different standards of who deserves to make the hall and what it takes. Ozzie, Nellie and Luis were the best at what they did for their leagues when they played. For me, the most telling statistic of whether you should be in the Hall of Fame or not is how many All Star games you play in. This is a measure of both your skills and popularity - which is what the measures should be. Ozzie - 16, Nellie - 12 and Luis - 10. For me if you made it ten times in your career, that means you were one of the top 2 or 3 at your position for half - if not more than half of your career. That's Hall of Fame greatness in my opinion. Name me other players who are not in the Hall that have 10 All Star games to their name.

PennStater98r
01-11-2007, 09:57 AM
I said it was borderline (as his 77% voting result indicates). He had great defense and a few outstanding offensive seasons but overall, I don't feel he was up to HoF standards. Just my $0.02.

77% is all that it took in his second year of eligibility. That's not too bad. It's better than barely getting in via the Veteran's Committee.

PennStater98r
01-11-2007, 10:18 AM
Name me other players who are not in the Hall that have 10 All Star games to their name.

To answer my own question, here's a list of players with 10 all star games or more that are not in the Hall of Fame - who are no longer playing:

Pete Rose - 17
Roberto Alomar - 12
Barry Larkin - 12
Mark McGwire - 12
Bill Freehan - 11
Steve Garvey - 10
Rickey Henderson - 10

------------------------

Dave Concepcion - 9
Joe Gordon - 9
Rich Gossage - 9
Joe Gordon - 9
Elston Howard - 9
Fred Lynn - 9
Frank McCormick - 9
Joe Torre - 9
Walker Cooper - 8
Del Crandall - 8
Andre Dawson - 8
Gil Hodges - 8
Bob Johnson - 8
Harvey Kuenn - 8
Tony Olivia - 8
Lance Parrish - 8
Jim Rice - 8
Ted Simmons - 8
Vern Snider - 8
Darryl Strawberry - 8

PaulDrake
01-11-2007, 10:22 AM
Catchers: Rick Ferrell, Ray Schalk
First Basemen: Jake Beckley, Jim Bottomley, Roger Connor, George Kelly, Tony Perez
Second Basemen: Johnny Evers, Bill Mazeroski, Bid McPhee, Red Schoendienst
Shortstop: Dave Bancroft, Travis Jackson, Joe Sewell, Joe Tinker, Bobby Wallace, Monte Ward
Third Basemen: George Kell, Freddy Lindstrom
Leftfielders: Chick Hafey, Heinie Manush, Jim O'Rourke
Centerfielders: Earle Combs, Lloyd Waner
Rightfielders: Kiki Cuyler, Harry Hooper, King Kelly, Chuck Klein, Tommy McCarthy, Ross Youngs

Upper Tier - What the HOF is about (and who I would consider among current players or players not in):

Catchers (9): Bench, Berra, Campanella, Carter, Cochrene, Dickey, Fisk, Gibson, Hartnett. (Torre, Piazza, Pudge Rodriguez)

First Baseman (9): Anson, Foxx, Gerhig, Greenberg, Killebrew, Leonard, McCovey, Mize, Murray (Thomas, Bagwell, Pujols)

Second Baseman (9): Carew, Collins, Frisch, Gehringer, Honrsby, Lajoie, Morgan, Robinson, Sandberg (Biggio, Alomar)

Shortstop (11): Aparicio, Appling, Banks, Boudreau, Cronin, Lloyd, Reese, Ripken, Vaughan, Wagner, Yount (Trammell, Jeter, A. Rodriguez)

Third Baseman (9): Baker, Boggs, Brett, Collins, Dandridge, Matthews, Robinson, Schmidt, Traynor (Santo)

Left Fielders (9): Brock, Kiner, Medwick, Musial, Simmons, Stargell, B. Williams, T. Williams, Yastrzemski (Bonds, Henderson, Raines, Minoso)

Center Fielders (10): Charleston, Cobb, DiMaggio, Doby, Hamilton, Mantle, Mays, Snider, Speaker, Stearnes (Griffey Jr.)

Rightfielders (12): Aaron, Clemente, Crawford, Gwynn, Jackson, Kaline, Ott, Robinson, Ruth, Slaughter, Waner, Winfield (Rose)

DH (1): Molitor

In addition there are owners, managers, umpires, announcers, writers who are in there that I really don't consider on par with players. The Negro League players were added via a few special committee ballots. The first one a few decades ago inducted the main stars. The 2006 additions were questionable in several instances (as well as two omissions - O'Neil and of course Minoso). There are several borderline players (not elite though one of the best) which I left off of both lists.

I'll save pitchers for another time. Really great post. I was going to do something similar if I found the time and energy. It wouldn't have been as well put together as yours though, you not only post well but package well too. I pretty much agree with you down the line, with a dissenting vote here and there.

Catcher - Ray Schalk was probably not good enough, but his defensive skills and handling of pitchers was top of the line for his era.

Second Base - Bill Mazeroski and Lynn Swann both owe a major debt of gratitude to Myron Cope, legendary Pittsburgh sports writer, sports anchor, radio commentator, and mostly lovable eccentric. If you ever heard Myron's voice you'd never forget it. Anyway, Myron lobbied long and hard for both guys and it paid off. I'd leave Red Schoendienst in the HOF. When you add his playing and managing stats together he gets the nod IMO. A similar situation to Lou Boudreau.

Shortstop - Where's Phil Rizzuto on the list?

Third Base - Ron Santo does deserve to be in the HOF.

Outfielders - I think I'd leave KiKi Cuyler and Chuck Klein in.

I look forward to your evaluation of pitchers.

PennStater98r
01-11-2007, 10:29 AM
Last but not least on this topic - here are some retired ball players and the number of All Star games that they actually made:

Nolan Ryan - 8 (0 MVP Awards, 0 Cy Young Awards) and he's the number 2 vote getter %-speaking of all time.

Bob Gibson - 8
Paul Molitor - 7
Sandy Koufax - 6
Bruce Sutter - 6
Dennis Eckersley - 6
Lou Brock - 6
Robin Yount - 3

White Sox Randy
01-11-2007, 12:37 PM
NO to:Bill Mazeroski, Ozzie Smith, George Kell, Johnny Evers, Phil Rizzuto

YES to: Ron Santo, Dwight Evans, Alan Trammel, Steve Garvey and Ted Simmons

I'd swap these 5 in a New York second.

SouthSide_HitMen
01-11-2007, 03:48 PM
Really great post. I was going to do something similar if I found the time and energy. It wouldn't have been as well put together as yours though, you not only post well but package well too. I pretty much agree with you down the line, with a dissenting vote here and there.

Catcher - Ray Schalk was probably not good enough, but his defensive skills and handling of pitchers was top of the line for his era.

Second Base - Bill Mazeroski and Lynn Swann both owe a major debt of gratitude to Myron Cope, legendary Pittsburgh sports writer, sports anchor, radio commentator, and mostly lovable eccentric. If you ever heard Myron's voice you'd never forget it. Anyway, Myron lobbied long and hard for both guys and it paid off. I'd leave Red Schoendienst in the HOF. When you add his playing and managing stats together he gets the nod IMO. A similar situation to Lou Boudreau.

Shortstop - Where's Phil Rizzuto on the list?

Third Base - Ron Santo does deserve to be in the HOF.

Outfielders - I think I'd leave KiKi Cuyler (http://www.baseball-reference.com/c/cuyleki01.shtml) and Chuck Klein (http://www.baseball-reference.com/k/kleinch01.shtml) in.

I look forward to your evaluation of pitchers.

Thanks for the kind post. I am familiar with Myron Cope's work as I am a lifelong Pittsburgh Steelers fan. :cool: (though I haven't heard him discuss baseball much)

I scanned through each position (it took longer than I thought it would) and passed over Rizzuto - I agree with your assessment.

Cuyler, Klein and others swept in with the huge Veterans committee classes had their stats skewed by the era they played in. For a few seasons in the late 20s the entire league hit .300 or so (the average of every player). Both were very good players though I guess my standard is more strict.

Boudreau was a better player than Red, but I see where you are coming from. Red and Ray Schalk were the two "toughest" players I "voted" out. There are many other tough calls (guys in between "upper tier" HOFers and guys who should not be in) but it would take a lot of work to do the proper research.

A good rule of thumb are most players (105 total) voted in via the BBWAA (http://www.baseballhalloffame.org/hofers_and_honorees/lists/full_inducted&asc.htm) deserve to be in the Hall of Fame (especially players getting 80%) should be in the hall of fame. Sutter & Perez were two recent additions which I wouldn't have voted to induct. Also, most players voted by the Veterans Committee (92 players total) should not be in the HOF, IMO.

I would apply the same generalization to the Negro League additions (most voted in during the 1970s should be in whereas only a few of the 17 inducted in 2006 should not be). I really don't pay much attention to the executives, managers, announcers, writers and umpires inducted.

The BBWAA process is not perfect but overall they have done a good job keeping their inductees limited to the best players within a generation.

PennState - I do not put much weight on All Star appearances.

White Sox Randy - I agree with Trammell and Santo and disagree with Dewey, Garvey and Simmons.

MUsoxfan
01-11-2007, 03:52 PM
To answer my own question, here's a list of players with 10 all star games or more that are not in the Hall of Fame - who are no longer playing:

Pete Rose - 17*
Roberto Alomar - 12
Barry Larkin - 12
Mark McGwire - 12
Bill Freehan - 11
Steve Garvey - 10
Rickey Henderson - 10



I believe the bolded players will be eligible in a couple years and will likely all get in

eastchicagosoxfan
01-11-2007, 04:37 PM
Catchers: Rick Ferrell, Ray Schalk
First Basemen: Jake Beckley, Jim Bottomley, Roger Connor, George Kelly, Tony Perez
Second Basemen: Johnny Evers, Bill Mazeroski, Bid McPhee, Red Schoendienst
Shortstop: Dave Bancroft, Travis Jackson, Joe Sewell, Joe Tinker, Bobby Wallace, Monte Ward
Third Basemen: George Kell, Freddy Lindstrom
Leftfielders: Chick Hafey, Heinie Manush, Jim O'Rourke
Centerfielders: Earle Combs, Lloyd Waner
Rightfielders: Kiki Cuyler, Harry Hooper, King Kelly, Chuck Klein, Tommy McCarthy, Ross Youngs

Upper Tier - What the HOF is about (and who I would consider among current players or players not in):

Catchers (9): Bench, Berra, Campanella, Carter, Cochrene, Dickey, Fisk, Gibson, Hartnett. (Torre, Piazza, Pudge Rodriguez)

First Baseman (9): Anson, Foxx, Gerhig, Greenberg, Killebrew, Leonard, McCovey, Mize, Murray (Thomas, Bagwell, Pujols)

Second Baseman (9): Carew, Collins, Frisch, Gehringer, Honrsby, Lajoie, Morgan, Robinson, Sandberg (Biggio, Alomar)

Shortstop (11): Aparicio, Appling, Banks, Boudreau, Cronin, Lloyd, Reese, Ripken, Vaughan, Wagner, Yount (Trammell, Jeter, A. Rodriguez)

Third Baseman (9): Baker, Boggs, Brett, Collins, Dandridge, Matthews, Robinson, Schmidt, Traynor (Santo)


Left Fielders (9): Brock, Kiner, Medwick, Musial, Simmons, Stargell, B. Williams, T. Williams, Yastrzemski (Bonds, Henderson, Raines, Minoso)

Center Fielders (10): Charleston, Cobb, DiMaggio, Doby, Hamilton, Mantle, Mays, Snider, Speaker, Stearnes (Griffey Jr.)

Rightfielders (12): Aaron, Clemente, Crawford, Gwynn, Jackson, Kaline, Ott, Robinson, Ruth, Slaughter, Waner, Winfield (Rose)

DH (1): Molitor

In addition there are owners, managers, umpires, announcers, writers who are in there that I really don't consider on par with players. The Negro League players were added via a few special committee ballots. The first one a few decades ago inducted the main stars. The 2006 additions were questionable in several instances (as well as two omissions - O'Neil and of course Minoso). There are several borderline players (not elite though one of the best) which I left off of both lists.

I'll save pitchers for another time.

The only guy I disagree with is King Kelley. He's regarded as a top player from the 19th century. He did everything but pitch ( 12 games ) and was consistently in the top 10 of most offensive categories.

Craig Grebeck
01-11-2007, 04:51 PM
It shouldn't matter how many AS game appearances a player makes.

sox1970
01-11-2007, 05:12 PM
Phil Rizzuto is one of the worst players in the HOF.

Yes, his career pretty much mirrors Frank White.

PennStater98r
01-11-2007, 05:27 PM
It shouldn't matter how many AS game appearances a player makes.

Why not? To use All Star game appearances as a rule of thumb - instead of a hard-fast rule - embodies the concept of the Hall - greatness and popularity. To make 10 All Star games is signifcant - and less people have done it than are in the Hall of Fame.

Hendu
01-11-2007, 06:50 PM
Bill freakin' Mazeroski

That's who I vote for too. Great defense, but you've got to be able to hit a little. He did have one huge homerun though.