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View Full Version : Good article from Trib about HOF voting


caulfield12
01-08-2007, 11:01 AM
http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/cs-070106halloffame,1,845307.htmlstory?coll=cs-home-headlines

Steelrod
01-08-2007, 11:36 AM
Hopefully Baines will stay on the ballot and give out of town voters a chance to look over his superb career! DH IS a position!

monkeypants
01-08-2007, 12:25 PM
And Dan McGrath uses the decision making process known as the "Same Guy Rule" to argue that he won't vote for Harold Baines because a similar player like Chili Davis didn't get enough votes and is now off the ballot.

I know I'm biased but Harold Baines was a better player than Chili Davis.

caulfield12
01-08-2007, 12:34 PM
And Dan McGrath uses the decision making process known as the "Same Guy Rule" to argue that he won't vote for Harold Baines because a similar player like Chili Davis didn't get enough votes and is now off the ballot.

I know I'm biased but Harold Baines was a better player than Chili Davis.

I would NEVER think of someone like Chili Davis and HOF in the same sentence.

If there's a parallel, it might be with someone like Fred McGriff (outside the steroids discussion) who quietly put up big numbers (and consistent) but was never quite a superstar.

It will also be interesting to see if David Ortiz can overcome the pedestrian beginning to his career to make it. I think he's 3 more MVP-esque years from being a shoo-in. His general popularity and the Red Sox factor will help...he's the "anti-Jim Rice."

TommyJohn
01-08-2007, 12:38 PM
And Dan McGrath uses the decision making process known as the "Same Guy Rule" to argue that he won't vote for Harold Baines because a similar player like Chili Davis didn't get enough votes and is now off the ballot.

I know I'm biased but Harold Baines was a better player than Chili Davis.
As I said in another thread, then how is it that Ryne Sandberg got in
but Lou Whitaker did not?

caulfield12
01-08-2007, 01:18 PM
As I said in another thread, then how is it that Ryne Sandberg got in
but Lou Whitaker did not?


Perhaps part of it is race, the fact that Whitaker was a quiet leader (like Frank White), the fact that Trammell overshadowed him a little bit and that he didn't play in a media center like Chicago, not to mention the fact that Sandberg had a couple of MVP caliber seasons, whereas Whitaker was very consistent but not "overwhelming" statistically.

Oblong
01-08-2007, 05:12 PM
Lou is a very shy guy and as a result I think came across as somewhat of a jerk to the media when in fact he's pretty humble. Remember during the strike when he showed up to the meetings in a limo? That was his own limo. It was his primary means of transportation. His wife had a recording studio and they used it for clients.

I can't say if I were not a Tiger fan that I'd think Lou should get in but seeing Sandberg get in so easily sure makes me wonder how Lou got dropped off the ballot in the first year.

PaleHoseGeorge
01-12-2007, 11:37 PM
Lou is a very shy guy and as a result I think came across as somewhat of a jerk to the media when in fact he's pretty humble. Remember during the strike when he showed up to the meetings in a limo? That was his own limo. It was his primary means of transportation. His wife had a recording studio and they used it for clients.

I can't say if I were not a Tiger fan that I'd think Lou should get in but seeing Sandberg get in so easily sure makes me wonder how Lou got dropped off the ballot in the first year.

Lou Whitaker was a more accomplished second basemen than Ryne Sandberg, and he was an integral part to one of the greatest teams of the decade, the 1984 world champion Tigers.

The fact Sandberg is in and Whitaker isn't is only a shameful reflection on the HOF.

And as for Whitaker being too quiet, please remember that Ryne Sandberg wouldn't say **** if he had a mouthful. The hired shills at the World's Greatest Newspaper carried all his water for him, less Mr. Cub than Mr. Cuckold...
:cool:

FarWestChicago
01-13-2007, 12:17 AM
Lou Whitaker was a more accomplished second basemen than Ryne Sandberg, and he was an integral part to one of the greatest teams of the decade, the 1984 world champion Tigers.

The fact Sandberg is in and Whitaker isn't is only a shameful reflection on the HOF.

And as for Whitaker being too quiet, please remember that Ryne Sandberg wouldn't say **** if he had a mouthful. The hired shills at the World's Greatest Newspaper carried all his water for him, less Mr. Cub than Mr. Cuckold...
:cool:Spot on, PHG! :thumbsup:

ondafarm
01-13-2007, 12:31 AM
Lou Whitaker was a more accomplished second basemen than Ryne Sandberg, and he was an integral part to one of the greatest teams of the decade, the 1984 world champion Tigers.

The fact Sandberg is in and Whitaker isn't is only a shameful reflection on the HOF.

And as for Whitaker being too quiet, please remember that Ryne Sandberg wouldn't say **** if he had a mouthful. The hired shills at the World's Greatest Newspaper carried all his water for him, less Mr. Cub than Mr. Cuckold...
:cool:

Bravo.

soxfan13
01-13-2007, 07:45 AM
http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/cs-070106halloffame,1,845307.htmlstory?coll=cs-home-headlines

Come on! Some people here dont believe the Trib would ever have a good column :smile:

DrCrawdad
01-13-2007, 08:29 AM
Lou Whitaker was a more accomplished second basemen than Ryne Sandberg, and he was an integral part to one of the greatest teams of the decade, the 1984 world champion Tigers.

The fact Sandberg is in and Whitaker isn't is only a shameful reflection on the HOF.

And as for Whitaker being too quiet, please remember that Ryne Sandberg wouldn't say **** if he had a mouthful. The hired shills at the World's Greatest Newspaper carried all his water for him, less Mr. Cub than Mr. Cuckold...
:cool:

How dare you attack the brave, outspoken Ryne Sandberg! Remember Sandberg's stirring condemnation of Sammy Sosa when Sandberg gave his HoF induction speech?

(Remember of course that Sandberg "threw his bricks from a distance." Sandberg never had the huevos to make a public comment condemning Sosa when Sosa was a still a Cubbie, even after Sandberg was retired. Sandberg finally mustered up the courage to attack Sosa and his style of play only after Sosa left the Cubbies. No doubt the Cubune board members and shareholders were happy that Sandberg kept his mouth shut when it could have hurt their product and profits to speak up. And of course Sandberg throwing Sosa under the bus only AFTER Sosa was traded no doubt pleased Cubune brass.)

Frater Perdurabo
01-13-2007, 10:53 AM
Sandberg had the range of an average third baseman but was moved to second base because his arm wasn't strong enough to play third, as in 1983 the Cubs had acquired the aging Ron Cey - a better power hitter - to play third!

What's funny is that in a comparable number of seasons, Cey has more career homers than Sandberg. Sandberg has a .285 BA, but Cey walked far more and had more RBI, testifying to his greater power.

Does anyone in their right mind think Ron Cey belongs in the HOF?

Sandberg's rather poor range at second was "boosted" by the slow, tall grass at the Urinal. Still, he had to dive for a lot of balls. That's why he shows up on lots of highlight reels. But playing second hid his poor arm. The Tru-link "Sandberg" basket caught dozens of his otherwise warning track fly balls, boosting his HR and RBI totals.

Only the Cubune propaganda machine turned him into a HOFer.

TommyJohn
01-13-2007, 11:02 AM
Lou Whitaker was a more accomplished second basemen than Ryne Sandberg, and he was an integral part to one of the greatest teams of the decade, the 1984 world champion Tigers.

The fact Sandberg is in and Whitaker isn't is only a shameful reflection on the HOF.

And as for Whitaker being too quiet, please remember that Ryne Sandberg wouldn't say **** if he had a mouthful. The hired shills at the World's Greatest Newspaper carried all his water for him, less Mr. Cub than Mr. Cuckold...
:cool:

June 23, 1984. That was the day that Ryne Sandberg made the Hall of Fame.
It was the game in which he smacked those two home runs off Bruce Sutter.
A great moment to be sure, but the massive hyperventilating over the game
was just too much. "Baby Ruth" "Kid Natural" "Roy Hobbs" "greatest second
baseman in the history of baseball." Those were some of the phrases
bandied about. Tadahito Iguchi has had several clutch home runs, shall we
start polishing his Hall plaque? The voters who decide such things would
sneer at us for such a suggestion, just as Arvia sneered that White Sox
fans would vote Harold Baines in.

Oblong
01-13-2007, 11:30 AM
After reading this and thinking about it some more... I'm enraged taht Sanberg's in the HOF. Seriously. I think he might be one of the weakest BBWAA elections.

PaleHoseGeorge
01-13-2007, 12:10 PM
Sandberg's rather poor range at second was "boosted" by the slow, tall grass at the Urinal. Still, he had to dive for a lot of balls. That's why he shows up on lots of highlight reels. But playing second hid his poor arm. The Tru-link "Sandberg" basket caught dozens of his otherwise warning track fly balls, boosting his HR and RBI totals.

I'll thank you for calling the Tru-link "Sandberg" basket by its proper name -- the Bozo Bucket!

:wink:

http://www.tvparty.com/vgifs8/bozo2.gif

PaleHoseGeorge
01-13-2007, 02:14 PM
After reading this and thinking about it some more... I'm enraged taht Sanberg's in the HOF. Seriously. I think he might be one of the weakest BBWAA elections.

Frankly I don't blame you for being upset. If you check the 10 ballplayers with the most similar stats to Ryno's, you find out Lou Whitaker is the most similar. And of those same ten, not one of them is in the HOF except Bobby Doerr, a second basemen for the Red Sox who played with a bunch of 4-F teams in the 1940's -- but at least he hit .409 in the 1946 World Series. What similar post-season HOF credentials can Ryno offer? None, of course.
:?:

Ryno is a first ballot HOFer and Whitaker isn't even on the ballot? For shame, HOF! For shame!
:o:

We need some more clear logic from the likes of a Phil Rogers to explain all this to us peons. Or maybe Rick Morrisey. Or Mike Downey. That's what they're paid for, right? To shill on behalf of the World's Greatest Newspaper, correct?

:cool:

http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/media/thumbnails/columnist/2003-05/7622751.jpg
"Would you believe me if I called myself a 'polished workhorse' at campaigning for my fellow Cubune employees on the HOF ballot?"

PaulDrake
01-17-2007, 10:02 AM
The hired shills at the World's Greatest Newspaper carried all his water for him, less Mr. Cub than Mr. Cuckold...
:cool: Yikes. Tough but true. I hope if I ever go off to war that you're on my side George. Like the famed English longbowmen of the Hundred Years War, George is dangerously accurate.

PennStater98r
01-17-2007, 05:42 PM
I know this is going to be an unpopular view, but why is Ryno an unworthy selection - but Nellie a good one?

Regardless of the grass on the field or how slow Sandberg was, he won an MVP (and was 4th twice) - just like Nellie Fox. He made it to 10 All Star games (Fox made it to 12), won 9 Gold Gloves, 7 Silver Sluggers and was in the top five in total bases 5 times - as a second baseman. I feel like - given the era, Sandberg was a very good slugging second baseman with him or Ripken as the best slugging middle infielder in baseball - which is quite different than what a slugging second baseman looks like today. For Nellie Fox's era, he was a very good lead off hitter - which is different than what a lead off hitter looks like today (though we could have a few more guys that played like Nellie did - never striking out and collecting 200 hits every year).

No - his career statistics are unimpressive - as he never really reached any lifetime milestones, but neither did Nellie Fox. However, in the era, Lou, Ryne and Willie (Randolph) were the best second basemen in the league. I don't have a problem with Ryne being in there. I do have a problem with Lou not receiving more serious consideration. I believe that the MVP went a long way.

Those batters that compare most to Sandberg are:

Lou Whitaker (http://www.baseball-reference.com/w/whitalo01.shtml) (900)
Joe Torre (http://www.baseball-reference.com/t/torrejo01.shtml) (874)
Barry Larkin (http://www.baseball-reference.com/l/larkiba01.shtml) (865)
Alan Trammell (http://www.baseball-reference.com/t/trammal01.shtml) (857)
Ken Boyer (http://www.baseball-reference.com/b/boyerke01.shtml) (845)
Roberto Alomar (http://www.baseball-reference.com/a/alomaro01.shtml) (834)
Bobby Doerr (http://www.baseball-reference.com/d/doerrbo01.shtml) (834) *
Brian Downing (http://www.baseball-reference.com/d/downibr01.shtml) (822)
B.J. Surhoff (http://www.baseball-reference.com/s/surhob.01.shtml) (821)
Julio Franco (http://www.baseball-reference.com/f/francju01.shtml) (819)PHG, though you were right that Doerr is the only one in the HoF, it's safe to say that Alomar is a lock and Larkin will receive some serious consideration. Trammell probably should be in the Hall, and Torre is borderline in my opinion. He will be in the HoF after his managing career is done for both his playing and managing days.

Also if you break down players by age, from ages 24-26, Sandberg and Molitor's numbers are most similar. From ages 29-32, Sandberg and Doerr's numbers are most similar for their ages. And Joe Torre and Lou Whitaker matches up with Sandberg from round of the rest of Sandberg's career - 33-34, 36-37. Seven of Sandberg's most productive years match up very well with Doerr and Molitor - two Hall of Famers. The other two years during his "productive time" match up very well with Edgardo Alfonzo's and Carlos Baerga's most productive seasons (ages 27-28).

The final point is his popularity. There is a place in the Hall for players that had very good numbers and a great relationship with the fans - just like there is a place for players that were horrible to the fans but had great numbers. See Ty Cobb and Ted Williams etc. Sandberg was elected to a number of those All Star games and that means something. I'm not sure what, but it does mean something.

All I am saying is that I do believe you have to consider the context of the era and consider what those players did for baseball and a part of that is popularity with fans...

DrCrawdad
01-17-2007, 09:21 PM
I know this is going to be an unpopular view, but why is Ryno an unworthy selection - but Nellie a good one?

Regardless of the grass on the field or how slow Sandberg was, he won an MVP (and was 4th twice) - just like Nellie Fox. He made it to 10 All Star games (Fox made it to 12), won 9 Gold Gloves, 7 Silver Sluggers and was in the top five in total bases 5 times - as a second baseman. I feel like - given the era, Sandberg was a very good slugging second baseman with him or Ripken as the best slugging middle infielder in baseball - which is quite different than what a slugging second baseman looks like today. For Nellie Fox's era, he was a very good lead off hitter - which is different than what a lead off hitter looks like today (though we could have a few more guys that played like Nellie did - never striking out and collecting 200 hits every year).

No - his career statistics are unimpressive - as he never really reached any lifetime milestones, but neither did Nellie Fox. However, in the era, Lou, Ryne and Willie (Randolph) were the best second basemen in the league. I don't have a problem with Ryne being in there. I do have a problem with Lou not receiving more serious consideration. I believe that the MVP went a long way.

Those batters that compare most to Sandberg are:
Lou Whitaker (http://www.baseball-reference.com/w/whitalo01.shtml) (900)
Joe Torre (http://www.baseball-reference.com/t/torrejo01.shtml) (874)
Barry Larkin (http://www.baseball-reference.com/l/larkiba01.shtml) (865)
Alan Trammell (http://www.baseball-reference.com/t/trammal01.shtml) (857)
Ken Boyer (http://www.baseball-reference.com/b/boyerke01.shtml) (845)
Roberto Alomar (http://www.baseball-reference.com/a/alomaro01.shtml) (834)
Bobby Doerr (http://www.baseball-reference.com/d/doerrbo01.shtml) (834) *
Brian Downing (http://www.baseball-reference.com/d/downibr01.shtml) (822)
B.J. Surhoff (http://www.baseball-reference.com/s/surhob.01.shtml) (821)
Julio Franco (http://www.baseball-reference.com/f/francju01.shtml) (819)PHG, though you were right that Doerr is the only one in the HoF, it's safe to say that Alomar is a lock and Larkin will receive some serious consideration. Trammell probably should be in the Hall, and Torre is borderline in my opinion. He will be in the HoF after his managing career is done for both his playing and managing days.

Also if you break down players by age, from ages 24-26, Sandberg and Molitor's numbers are most similar. From ages 29-32, Sandberg and Doerr's numbers are most similar for their ages. And Joe Torre and Lou Whitaker matches up with Sandberg from round of the rest of Sandberg's career - 33-34, 36-37. Seven of Sandberg's most productive years match up very well with Doerr and Molitor - two Hall of Famers. The other two years during his "productive time" match up very well with Edgardo Alfonzo's and Carlos Baerga's most productive seasons (ages 27-28).

The final point is his popularity. There is a place in the Hall for players that had very good numbers and a great relationship with the fans - just like there is a place for players that were horrible to the fans but had great numbers. See Ty Cobb and Ted Williams etc. Sandberg was elected to a number of those All Star games and that means something. I'm not sure what, but it does mean something.

All I am saying is that I do believe you have to consider the context of the era and consider what those players did for baseball and a part of that is popularity with fans...

I seem to remember there was discussion here previously about Sandberg and his HoF worthiness. IIRC many here spoke in favor of Sandberg.

PennStater98r
01-22-2007, 10:12 AM
I seem to remember there was discussion here previously about Sandberg and his HoF worthiness. IIRC many here spoke in favor of Sandberg.

That's cool - I suppose I was responding to PHG and those who were in agreement with him.