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View Full Version : Frank's Hall chances - no longer any doubt


A. Cavatica
01-08-2007, 01:29 AM
The Bill James poll thread got me thinking about James' contributions. Of course, one of his recurring subjects is how to predict whether player X will get into the Hall of Fame. In fact, there's a 2002 WSI thread about this, where X = Frank Thomas:

http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=13415

In 2002, Frank was a likely Hall of Famer according to James' criteria. It's interesting to see how much stronger his case has become. The only question in my mind is whether he'll go in on the first ballot.

1>Was he ever regarded as the best player in baseball? Did anybody, while he was active, ever suggest that he was the best player in baseball?

Yes. Griffey Jr. is the only real competition. The other guy (Bonds) is now disgraced.

2> Was he the best player on his team?

Yes.

3>Was he the best player in baseball at his position? Was he the best player in the league at his position?

Yes and yes. McGwire, Palmeiro, Giambi have also been disgraced.

4> Did he have an impact on a number of pennant races?

Add 2003, 2005, and 2006 to the others. Frank's injuries had a negative impact on a few other races.

5> Was he good enough that he could play regularly after passing his prime?

Certainly. Frank could barely walk in 2005, so he simply tried to hit home runs, and he made a big (if brief) contribution to the championship run.

6> Is he the very best baseball player in history who is not in the Hall of Fame?

NA (still active).

7> Are most players who have comparable statistics in the Hall of Fame?

Players with comparable statistics are on the short list of greatest hitters of all time.

8> Do the player's numbers meet Hall of Fame standards?

Without a doubt. His peak numbers were off the charts, his career averages are .305/38/122, and he's up to 487 home runs. baseball-reference.com has him at 209.0 on the "HoF Monitor", where a score > 100 indicates a likely Hall of Famer.

9>Is there any evidence to suggest that the player was significantly better or worse than is suggested by his statistics?

The evidence suggests that he was steroid-free when he put those numbers up. This makes him look even better in hindsight.

10>Is he the best player at his position who is eligible for the Hall of Fame?

He's certainly the best DH ever. (And there's the rub.)

11>How many MVP-type seasons did he have? Did he ever win an MVP award? If not, how many times was he close?

Won the award in 1993 and 1994; finished second, narrowly, to a juicer in 2000; finished third in 1991 and 1997; finished fourth in 2006; also got votes in 1992, 1995, 1996, and 2003.

12> How many All-Star-type seasons did he have? How many All-Star games did he play in? Did most of the players who played in this many All-Star games go into the Hall of Fame?

I count ten All-Star-type seasons (1991-1997, 2000, 2003, 2006). I can only find five All-Star appearances, which is even fewer than his number of top-four MVP finishes. Clearly, being a DH worked against him.

13> If this man were the best player on his team, would it be likely that the team could win the pennant?

Yes.

14>What impact did the player have on baseball history? Was he responsible for any rule changes? Did he introduce any new equipment? Did he change the game in any way?

None outside of his contributions on the field.

15>Did the player uphold the standards of sportsmanship and character that the Hall of Fame, in its written guidelines, instructs us to consider?

Yes. Being grumpy once in a while is no great sin.

crazyozzie02
01-08-2007, 01:38 AM
If he hite 500 homers he will be in. That goes for Thome also. Although i would love to see both of these men go in as white sox, i obviously only see one of them doing so (unless we win like the next 4-5 world series, thome will be an indian)

AJ Hellraiser
01-08-2007, 01:39 AM
There is NO DOUBT... Here are 2 great articles:

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=behrens/060925

http://www.hardballtimes.com/main/article/the-truth-hurts/

ShoelessJoeS
01-08-2007, 01:03 PM
There is NO DOUBT... Here are 2 great articles:

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=behrens/060925

http://www.hardballtimes.com/main/article/the-truth-hurts/

WOW, I'm suprised Frank got that much love from ESPN.

Great reads, thanks for the links AJ.

downstairs
01-08-2007, 01:09 PM
There is no way this is even a question anymore. This last year in Oakland sealed the deal- 500 HRs or not (and he'll get that, so who cares).

Old and off a bad injury, the guy played like an all-star in 2006.

A. Cavatica
01-08-2007, 08:54 PM
So, first ballot or not?

JChisox
01-08-2007, 09:09 PM
The evidence suggests he was steroid-free for his career? What evidence is that? Besides steroids, has he submitted to a blood test to determine if he's HGH-free? He has football in his background and is there any sport more chemically-enhanced?

Given Baseball's lack of testing throughout the 90s and into the 2000s, no outsized player should be above suspicion. Just because he is a personal favorite doesn't mean he's clean and everyone else is tainted. For that matter, why should we be cutting players slack from the 50s through 80s who used amphetamines? Willie Mays admitted to using the "red juice" and I'm certain it wasn't to treat a hormonal imbalance.

RKMeibalane
01-08-2007, 10:18 PM
The evidence suggests he was steroid-free for his career? What evidence is that? Besides steroids, has he submitted to a blood test to determine if he's HGH-free? He has football in his background and is there any sport more chemically-enhanced?

Given Baseball's lack of testing throughout the 90s and into the 2000s, no outsized player should be above suspicion. Just because he is a personal favorite doesn't mean he's clean and everyone else is tainted. For that matter, why should we be cutting players slack from the 50s through 80s who used amphetamines? Willie Mays admitted to using the "red juice" and I'm certain it wasn't to treat a hormonal imbalance.

I don't think you're going to be here long, but that's just me. Stupidity of this sort isn't highly thought of by the TPTB.

ondafarm
01-08-2007, 10:23 PM
The evidence suggests he was steroid-free for his career? What evidence is that? Besides steroids, has he submitted to a blood test to determine if he's HGH-free? He has football in his background and is there any sport more chemically-enhanced?

Given Baseball's lack of testing throughout the 90s and into the 2000s, no outsized player should be above suspicion. Just because he is a personal favorite doesn't mean he's clean and everyone else is tainted. For that matter, why should we be cutting players slack from the 50s through 80s who used amphetamines? Willie Mays admitted to using the "red juice" and I'm certain it wasn't to treat a hormonal imbalance.

Barry Bonds, this site is for White Sox fans only.

AJ Hellraiser
01-08-2007, 10:57 PM
The evidence suggests he was steroid-free for his career? What evidence is that? Besides steroids, has he submitted to a blood test to determine if he's HGH-free? He has football in his background and is there any sport more chemically-enhanced?

Given Baseball's lack of testing throughout the 90s and into the 2000s, no outsized player should be above suspicion. Just because he is a personal favorite doesn't mean he's clean and everyone else is tainted. For that matter, why should we be cutting players slack from the 50s through 80s who used amphetamines? Willie Mays admitted to using the "red juice" and I'm certain it wasn't to treat a hormonal imbalance.

You are innocent until proven guilty.. that being said, his HR numbers never spiked to an unrealistic level like Sosa, Bonds or McGwire.... he never came to spring training having magically gained 30 pounds in 1 offseason... he was a tight end at Auburn and was a big man his entire life...

JChisox
01-08-2007, 11:56 PM
Too bad the 16 members of the 2003 Sox, including and led by Frank, didn't follow through with their threat to not take the urine test to compel drug testing. They knew what was happening to their reputations and Baseball is now paying the price for 60 years of ignoring artificially enhanced players. Unlike the NFL that considers its dopers for Defensive Players of the Year honors, baseball fans worship their sport's stats and records and want their players to be the Natural.

HomeFish
01-08-2007, 11:57 PM
I've seen Frank Thomas baby pictures. If he was on steroids, he started shooting up while his umbilical cord was still attached.

thomas35forever
01-09-2007, 12:12 AM
I've seen Frank Thomas baby pictures. If he was on steroids, he started shooting up while his umbilical cord was still attached.
What are you trying to say?:?:

oeo
01-09-2007, 12:27 AM
What are you trying to say?:?:

That Frank never took steroids; he was always a big guy..........

voodoochile
01-09-2007, 01:22 AM
That Frank never took steroids; he was always a big guy..........

No no no... guys who get recruited to play TE at Auburn have traditionally looked like Mike Caruso...

AJ Hellraiser
01-09-2007, 01:41 AM
Let's not also forget that when the hearings were going on, Frank was not even required to be in attendance like the rest of the "Little Roiders"... Also, he and Curt Schilling were asked to head a group of players who laid off roids in a campaign to show the youth of the country why steroids are bad....

In the wake of all the bad publicity steroids has brought and will continue to bring to baseball, I highly doubt MLB or whomever asked Schilling and Frank to do this would just go out on a limb without proper knowledge of their innocence...

fquaye149
01-09-2007, 02:56 AM
various stats to prove how awesome frnak is



Great post!!!:D::D::D:

ondafarm
01-09-2007, 10:00 AM
No no no... guys who get recruited to play TE at Auburn have traditionally looked like Mike Caruso...

Where are the TEAL POLICE when you need them?

itsnotrequired
01-09-2007, 10:19 AM
Great post!!!:D::D::D:

Reminds me of the Horsemaster...

Baby Fisk
01-09-2007, 11:00 AM
Once the big guy clears 500 HRs this year, any doubts that still linger will be gone. Then again, anyone who still doubts now will find some other reason to doubt later.

RKMeibalane
01-09-2007, 12:59 PM
Too bad the 16 members of the 2003 Sox, including and led by Frank, didn't follow through with their threat to not take the urine test to compel drug testing. They knew what was happening to their reputations and Baseball is now paying the price for 60 years of ignoring artificially enhanced players. Unlike the NFL that considers its dopers for Defensive Players of the Year honors, baseball fans worship their sport's stats and records and want their players to be the Natural.

You need to get your facts straight. Frank did not lead the boycott of testing in '03. He didn't even know about it until Sandy Alomar told him. Moronotti and the rest of the Chicago media- as usual- assumed Frank had something to do with it, and apparently, people like you believed everything they spoon-fed the general public.

maurice
01-09-2007, 01:36 PM
No no no... guys who get recruited to play TE at Auburn have traditionally looked like Mike Caruso...

But Frank DID look like Slappy during HS. The steroids he took at Auburn not only added 80 lbs. of muscle, but also made him grow 4 inches taller. The steroids even adjusted his bone structure to keep his frame proportionate to his height!

Frontman
01-09-2007, 01:50 PM
The evidence suggests he was steroid-free for his career? What evidence is that? Besides steroids, has he submitted to a blood test to determine if he's HGH-free? He has football in his background and is there any sport more chemically-enhanced?

Given Baseball's lack of testing throughout the 90s and into the 2000s, no outsized player should be above suspicion. Just because he is a personal favorite doesn't mean he's clean and everyone else is tainted. For that matter, why should we be cutting players slack from the 50s through 80s who used amphetamines? Willie Mays admitted to using the "red juice" and I'm certain it wasn't to treat a hormonal imbalance.

Did Frank grow an additional forehead? No. Try getting Bonds to put on his old Pirates hat, then have Frank put on his rookie Sox cap. Betcha Frank's will still fit, whereas Bonds couldn't get that hat to stay on.

:D: