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BigHurt35
01-03-2007, 12:28 AM
I don't think Kenny's moves have anything to do with money, it is about creating competition. He isn't getting rid of players because he doesn't want to pay them, or can't resign them. Especially with McCarthy, he is sending a message that you can't just assume you are going to get what you want.

This is the same message to Buerhle, Garland, and Vasquez. Let it be known that you would be willing to trade any of them at any time. Then stock the high minors with hungry young pitchers. Not only are the prospects all competing for the 5th spot, but if any of the top 4 shows up at Spring Training out of shape or off their game, if two prospects are lights out that starter is gone. Maybe not in spring training, but that way Kenny is the one with the leverage, and can wait for an injury or something that will force a team to pay over the top.

McCarthy was always talking about how he didn't want to pitch in the bullpen, insinuating that he deserved to start. But failed starters make good relievers, not the other way around. Nobody's job is safe and almost everyone is either in a contract year, 2 years from it, or is young and playing for their first big contract. On top of that the Sox are now in a position to reward whoever they want with a big extension.

Kenny is a genius.

letsgosox15
01-03-2007, 12:40 AM
i agree with everything u said there except one part. the part if one of the 4 starters come out of shape.

1. they have big contracts and the money is guranteed to those 4 starters.

2. if they release or DFA one of them they are still responsible for the contract for the remaining of the year.

3. there is not 2 minor leaguers in march going to be lights out and have a chance to take out one of the top 4. there is only like 2 or 3 minor leaguers who are ready for the majors. one being Gavin Floyd, second being Charlie Haeger, and 3rd being Heath Phillips. One will win 5th spot, other will win spot in bullpen and other will win spot of back in AAA. The sox have said that they do not want to rush any of their young prospects to the majors and want them to grow and develop.

soxfan45
01-03-2007, 08:02 AM
While I personally agree with what you've said and think you may have a point about how Kenny thinks, the bottom line is that there is currently a HUGE marketplace for pitching, even very mediocre pitching. So if I'm MB or JV, I'm not particularly concerned about my financial future next year provided I put up average (or slightly above) numbers and eat innings. That will likely get you a $12 mil/5-6 year contract, which undoubtedly they will command.

Kenny has taken the position that the financial aspects of these deals will hurt teams on the "back-end" (2-3 years from now) and have decided to stock up on signable talent. (should a few of them succeed)

Where I think the White Sox deserve scrutiny is on the timing of the exchanges for Garcia and McCarthy. Maybe a better strategy would have been to let Zito sign and "define" the stratospheric marketplace, then look to move either of the guys. Because it wasn't exactly a surprise that Zito, Suppan, etc.. where going to command these kind of multi year contracts, just a matter of time.

caulfield12
01-03-2007, 08:13 AM
I don't think we'll ever see Heath Phillips on the White Sox, it would be a shock.

#2, Buehrle is one of the players (along with Uribe and Jenks) who were called out for their work habits. Mark knows he's going into the biggest season of his career, he's going to come ready to pitch this Spring IMO. If you start throwing out Zito's numbers and argue that Mark should be paid comparably (and that's a legit argument), he's got too much to lose ($10 million versus $15-17 million per season) not to. I think he has too much pride to go through another season like last year.

Contreras being healthy and comfortable, along with Mark, are the keys, IMO.

I feel pretty confident that Garland and Vazquez will be fine, and there are new concerns about the 5th starter, but the Twins are also lacking quality starters too. I don't think the Tigers are 100% confident in Maroth/Miner as their 5th.

#3, Floyd, Haeger and Danks have to be the three co-favorites for the 5th spot. Aardsma and Masset should be battling for the pen spot with Sisco, Carlo Vazquez and Logan from the LH side.

I don't see Gonzalez, Broadway, McCullogh or Rassner being any factor...then again, every ST, a Sweeney or Logan has emerged out of nowhere to make an aspect.

As far as the competition aspect, that's great, if you have QUALITY and NUMBERS, but we had plenty of LH relief candidates and we struggled with that position all season because we didn't have one TALENTED reliever, we just had bodies.

BigHurt35
01-03-2007, 08:38 AM
I think the reason Kenny is making these trades is to add depth to the prospects, so there isn't another situation like the left handed reliever one last year. Even if they are not here right now, they are close and might be ready by mid season. That is also why Pods is back in my opinion, Sweeney may not be ready now, but by mid-season he might be pushing for CF or LF.

Also, as stated above, there is a big difference between 10 million per and 17 million per. Maybe not to you or me, but when you can make it that is quite a motivator. I am sure that Buerhle and Vasquez realize what is at stake this year.

wsoxfan111
01-03-2007, 08:55 AM
I think the reason Kenny is making these trades is to add depth to the prospects, so there isn't another situation like the left handed reliever one last year. Even if they are not here right now, they are close and might be ready by mid season. That is also why Pods is back in my opinion, Sweeney may not be ready now, but by mid-season he might be pushing for CF or LF.

Also, as stated above, there is a big difference between 10 million per and 17 million per. Maybe not to you or me, but when you can make it that is quite a motivator. I am sure that Buerhle and Vasquez realize what is at stake this year.

I think he's stocking up on these prospects, because he knows that the team should be good to go, and if my mid-July, we are in the middle of the hunt, he can make a move to go out and get another BIG bat, or pitcher.

If we are not in the hunt in July, then we have all these great prospects that we can either trade in the offseason, or wait for them to start doing their job, and be winners in '08, '09, or '10.

White Sox Randy
01-03-2007, 09:54 AM
I think it's more simple than that guys.

Kenny is trying to add pitching prospects with high upside because he doesn't want to be stuck paying 4 or 5 starting pitchers $ 10-15 mil. per season to put up ERA'S in the mid 4's.

He figures that guys like Haeger, Danks, Gio, Floyd, Broadway etc. can probably do the same within a year or two.

letsgosox15
01-03-2007, 10:11 AM
i like everything u just said except including haeger in their for a sub 4 era. if he became a starter he would be high 5 low 6 era. expecially if chris stewart is not catching him. AJ proved to us that the knucleball is something he cant handle. and if u look at Tim WAkefields #'s hes always has high era. also for a knucleballer u never know which day it will be on and off. its a 50/50 shot if you ask me.

caulfield12
01-03-2007, 10:13 AM
i like everything u just said except including haeger in their for a sub 4 era. if he became a starter he would be high 5 low 6 era. expecially if chris stewart is not catching him. AJ proved to us that the knucleball is something he cant handle. and if u look at Tim WAkefields #'s hes always has high era. also for a knucleballer u never know which day it will be on and off. its a 50/50 shot if you ask me.


I wouldn't be shocked at all if Haeger put up a 4.25-4.75 ERA.

Whether he'll get the nod over the likes of Floyd and Danks is another question altogether. But I don't think he automatically becomes a 5-6 ERA pitcher simply because Toby Hall or AJ are catching him and not Doug Mirabelli.

letsgosox15
01-03-2007, 10:19 AM
even with Doug Maribelli Tim Wakefield is a high 4-5 era. With a catcher with the inability to catch a knucleballer, its not looking that good. U can conclude the Angels game he started that AJ Couldnt catch it. In the Minors though Chris Stewart proved he could catch it and that helped from all the pass balls and wild pitches which didnt lead to extra outs given to the opponet. As for the Angels game, with all the pass balls and wild pitches lead to extra outs given to them. thats why i didnt like the toby hall signing and thought if Haeger was even getting a shotto make a spot, they should have Stewart as the backup

caulfield12
01-03-2007, 10:26 AM
even with Doug Maribelli Tim Wakefield is a high 4-5 era. With a catcher with the inability to catch a knucleballer, its not looking that good. U can conclude the Angels game he started that AJ Couldnt catch it. In the Minors though Chris Stewart proved he could catch it and that helped from all the pass balls and wild pitches which didnt lead to extra outs given to the opponet. As for the Angels game, with all the pass balls and wild pitches lead to extra outs given to them. thats why i didnt like the toby hall signing and thought if Haeger was even getting a shotto make a spot, they should have Stewart as the backup

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/stats?playerId=2748

Considering Fenway Park, I think a 4.30 career ERA is VERY solid.

It's much closer to 4 than 5.

letsgosox15
01-03-2007, 10:33 AM
damn one year he put up like a 2.83 era. i think cheager is going to be a good pitcher but it doesnt help if u got no catcher who can catch one the major league roster. i loved watching him pitch. i went down to charolette a lot cause i friends down there and went to a lot of games. he looks like he will be something special but i think hes just a year away from being a starter. i can see bullpen but not starter. long relief. or back to AAA. i would perfer him to be AAA so he can keep pitching and building confidence so when he gets another shot he will have all the confidence in the world.