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letsgosox15
01-01-2007, 02:22 PM
out of all the potential 5th starters for the sox i am wondering which one do you believe to have the best shot at landing it.



Gavin Floyd?
Charlie Haeger?
Lance Broadway?
Heath Phillips?
GIo Gonzalez?
Andrew Sisco?
Kyle Mchollough?
Danks?
or someone else?

oeo
01-01-2007, 02:25 PM
out of all the potential 5th starters for the sox i am wondering which one do you believe to have the best shot at landing it.



Gavin Floyd?
Charlie Haeger?
Lance Broadway?
Heath Phillips?
GIo Gonzalez?
Andrew Sisco?
Kyle Mchollough?
Danks?
or someone else?

Some of those guys listed above are not even ready yet (Broadway, Gonzalez, McCulloch, I have no idea about Phillips either). I think Floyd is going to get the job, though...and surprise a lot of people. I don't think Kenny would have traded McCarthy if he was not very high on someone, and I think Floyd is that someone.

letsgosox15
01-01-2007, 02:26 PM
i just put those names just for options. i know there at least a year away maybe even 2.

i think its going to be either floyd or haeger

sox1970
01-01-2007, 03:03 PM
out of all the potential 5th starters for the sox I am wondering which one do you believe to have the best shot at landing it.

At this moment I'd say it's a two-horse race--Haeger or Floyd. Danks and Gonzalez need more time in the minors.

JUribe1989
01-01-2007, 03:09 PM
I would love for it to be Danks. Maybe we could have a Liriano of our own.

tick53
01-01-2007, 03:41 PM
Spring training will probably tell, but I'm saying Danks.

PaleHoseGeorge
01-01-2007, 03:53 PM
I'm guessing it will be whoever has the best spring... provided KW doesn't come up with another spare part between now and Opening Day, via trade or free agency.

Being named #5 can do wonders for a pitcher's career. Look what it did for "rockhead" Jon Garland.
:wink:

:jon
"Wiped the silly smirk right off my face!"

AJ Hellraiser
01-01-2007, 04:11 PM
It will be Floyd or Haeger unless Danks just blows them away....

Sisco will take Cotts' place in the bullpen... after 2 or 3 years in KC's bullpen, it would take him a couple months in the minors to build his arm strength up to starting pitcher material again...

TDog
01-01-2007, 04:28 PM
... I don't think Kenny would have traded McCarthy if he was not very high on someone, and I think Floyd is that someone.

Kenny Williams was high enough on Todd Richie (who was 15-9 for the Pirates in 1999) that to get him he traded two highly though of prospects and a reliever who turned out to have no career left.

The question is whether Floyd is another Ritchie or McCarthy is another Ritchie. It's also possible that none of them, including McCarthy, has a solid baseball career ahead of them.

ondafarm
01-01-2007, 04:38 PM
It will be Floyd or Haeger unless Danks just blows them away....

Sisco will take Cotts' place in the bullpen... after 2 or 3 years in KC's bullpen, it would take him a couple months in the minors to build his arm strength up to starting pitcher material again...

Agree on Floyd, Haeger and Danks.

Sisco could, if started at the beginning of spring training, be ready to be a starter by opening day. Not sure that's a great idea though.

HomeFish
01-01-2007, 05:13 PM
My heart says Haeger. If he can be effective, he's gonna be really, really fun to watch.

My mind says we'll probably see a revolving door, though, so perhaps even all of the above!

jabrch
01-01-2007, 05:58 PM
Kenny Williams was high enough on Todd Richie (who was 15-9 for the Pirates in 1999) that to get him he traded two highly though of prospects and a reliever who turned out to have no career left.

The question is whether Floyd is another Ritchie or McCarthy is another Ritchie. It's also possible that none of them, including McCarthy, has a solid baseball career ahead of them.

I think GIO is the guy he was high on from Philly. Gavin is a nice kicker.

KyWhiSoxFan
01-01-2007, 10:10 PM
I like Haeger. Any knuckleballer who can go into a dome, like Haeger did on the last day of the season, and only give up one run on three hits in three innings has stuff worth getting excited about. When he's outside, his ball really moves.

I think Haeger can win a lot of games for the Sox over the next dozen years.

SoxSpeed22
01-01-2007, 10:25 PM
I think Floyd will win it in Spring Training, but Haeger will end up as the 5th starter.

delben91
01-01-2007, 10:51 PM
I'd love to see Haeger take it.

If you put a gun to my head as to who will probably get the spot though, I'd say Floyd.

rainbow6
01-01-2007, 11:19 PM
There was an interesting article on Hardballtimes.com recently that compared how the fourth and fifth rotation spots compared league-wide...

If I recall, the Sox were one of only three teams to have the fifth spot post an ERA under 5.00....the average was about 6.00.

That made me appreciate the McCarthy trade even more....

Luke

SABRSox
01-01-2007, 11:32 PM
There was an interesting article on Hardballtimes.com recently that compared how the fourth and fifth rotation spots compared league-wide...

If I recall, the Sox were one of only three teams to have the fifth spot post an ERA under 5.00....the average was about 6.00.

I also read that article. I think it nicely illustrated that a great 5th starter is a luxury, and not a necessity. I'm really happy with the arms we got back in the McCarthy trade, and I think one of our many options can out-perform the league average next season. (Hopefully it won't take long into the season to figure out which guy that is.)

UserNameBlank
01-02-2007, 02:09 AM
My heart says Haeger. If he can be effective, he's gonna be really, really fun to watch.

My mind says we'll probably see a revolving door, though, so perhaps even all of the above!

If you enjoyed watching opposing teams run all over Freddy, you'll really love watching Haeger pitch.

UserNameBlank
01-02-2007, 02:13 AM
I'd love to see Haeger take it.

If you put a gun to my head as to who will probably get the spot though, I'd say Floyd.

I'm suprised everyone is saying Haeger or Floyd. Floyd obviously has to be the favorite going in since he's the only one of the group with quite a bit of big league experience, but Haeger is a long shot IMO. I think Heath Phillips is going to put on a good run for it and will be more likely to win the spot than Charlie.

Domeshot17
01-02-2007, 02:26 AM
Frontrunner: Floyd

Close behind: Haeger

Darkhorse: Sisco

I think if Floyd blows people away, we will see Haeger get traded. They don't want the knuckler out of the bullpen and his value is pretty good. I really like Charlie. He worked his tail off to to be where he is. A BIG part for him will be if AJ or Hall can catch a knuckler. AJ hurt Charlie during the year, made a lot of strikes become balls. His role is obviously as a starter though and that will make or break his fate.

I think Heath Phillips actually makes the 25 man roster, but as a reliever.

Beautox
01-02-2007, 02:46 AM
I also read that article. I think it nicely illustrated that a great 5th starter is a luxury, and not a necessity. I'm really happy with the arms we got back in the McCarthy trade, and I think one of our many options can out-perform the league average next season. (Hopefully it won't take long into the season to figure out which guy that is.)

i too read that article, and i agree. i would love for it to be haeger, but i also wouldn't mind if Floyd came out and dominated.

Corlose 15
01-02-2007, 09:48 AM
I think I saw somewhere that Cooper would base most of his decision on Haeger off of last September because he will have a disadvantage in a competition for the 5th starter spot with his knuckleball and the dry Arizona air.

It'd be really exciting to see Haeger win it. Knuckleballs are fun! :cool:

Either way I just hope whoever wins it is effective.

sox1970
01-02-2007, 10:07 AM
I think I saw somewhere that Cooper would base most of his decision on Haeger off of last September because he will have a disadvantage in a competition for the 5th starter spot with his knuckleball and the dry Arizona air.

It'd be really exciting to see Haeger win it. Knuckleballs are fun! :cool:

Either way I just hope whoever wins it is effective.

I agree. And I hope Floyd isn't given the job just because he has only one minor league option left. Of course if they trade another starter, they both could be in the rotation.

I think if they give Haeger a shot, he could be extremely valuable to eat a lot of innings. Like any knuckleballer, he'll have some bad starts, but if the Sox could go .500 in his starts from the 5th spot in the rotation, that would be acceptable.

ondafarm
01-02-2007, 10:09 AM
My mind says we'll probably see a revolving door, though, so perhaps even all of the above!

:violin::violin::violin:

ondafarm
01-02-2007, 10:12 AM
If you enjoyed watching opposing teams run all over Freddy, you'll really love watching Haeger pitch.

That's part of having a knuckleball pitcher. Freddy could have done something about it.

itsnotrequired
01-02-2007, 10:16 AM
That's part of having a knuckleball pitcher. Freddy could have done something about it.

What could Freddy have done? Unless he changes something this season, teams will continue to run off him just like they have for the last several years.

the gooch
01-02-2007, 11:03 AM
I agree. And I hope Floyd isn't given the job just because he has only one minor league option left. Of course if they trade another starter, they both could be in the rotation.

I think if they give Haeger a shot, he could be extremely valuable to eat a lot of innings. Like any knuckleballer, he'll have some bad starts, but if the Sox could go .500 in his starts from the 5th spot in the rotation, that would be acceptable.
a .500 5th starter is acceptable to you? Wow.
What would it take to impress you in the last rotation spot?
What is "acceptable" for the top of our rotation?

itsnotrequired
01-02-2007, 11:09 AM
a .500 5th starter is acceptable to you? Wow.
What would it take to impress you in the last rotation spot?
What is "acceptable" for the top of our rotation?

It is very difficult to have all 5 of your starters have winning records. .500 out of the 5th spot is better than average. .500 out of the 1 or 2 guys is completely unacceptable.

sox1970
01-02-2007, 11:24 AM
a .500 5th starter is acceptable to you? Wow.
What would it take to impress you in the last rotation spot?
What is "acceptable" for the top of our rotation?

Look around the major leagues and find the worst starter on any staff and see if their team is .500 in their starts. I'm guessing you won't find many.

The Sox need a couple starters to have team records around 21-11, a couple around 19-14, and one around .500.

I'd say Garland and Buehrle need to step up and be the 1-2 starters this year.

itsnotrequired
01-02-2007, 11:29 AM
Look around the major leagues and find the worst starter on any staff and see if their team is .500 in their starts. I'm guessing you won't find many.

The Sox need a couple starters to have team records around 21-11, a couple around 19-14, and one around .500.

I'd say Garland and Buehrle need to step up and be the 1-2 starters this year.

Your numbers work out to a 96 win season. Seems reasonable to me!:cool:

KyWhiSoxFan
01-02-2007, 12:05 PM
Look around the major leagues and find the worst starter on any staff and see if their team is .500 in their starts. I'm guessing you won't find many.

The Sox need a couple starters to have team records around 21-11, a couple around 19-14, and one around .500.

I'd say Garland and Buehrle need to step up and be the 1-2 starters this year.

There was not a single 20-game winner in the AL last year, but you think all the Sox need are two starting pitchers that will win 21 games each and two that will win 19 games each and they will be all right if the fifth starter is a .500 pitcher. That's 80 wins for the top four, before you get to wins by the fifth starter and bullpen wins. I don't think a staff has had 80 wins out of their top four starters since Baltimore in the 1970s (and they probably had only a four-man rotation).

Yeah, I guess if the top four starters in the Sox rotation are all up for Cy Young honors at the end of the year, the Sox will be in good shape.

sox1970
01-02-2007, 12:12 PM
There was not a single 20-game winner in the AL last year, but you think all the Sox need are two starting pitchers that will win 21 games each and two that will win 19 games each and they will be all right if the fifth starter is a .500 pitcher. That's 80 wins for the top four, before you get to wins by the fifth starter and bullpen wins. I don't think a staff has had 80 wins out of their top four starters since Baltimore in the 1970s (and they probably had only a four-man rotation).

Yeah, I guess if the top four starters in the Sox rotation are all up for Cy Young honors at the end of the year, the Sox will be in good shape.

Where did I say the starter had to win that many games? I said team record. Two pitchers at 10 over .500; two pitchers at 5 over .500; and one pitcher at .500= 96 wins, which equals playoffs.

KyWhiSoxFan
01-02-2007, 12:27 PM
Where did I say the starter had to win that many games? I said team record. Two pitchers at 10 over .500; two pitchers at 5 over .500; and one pitcher at .500= 96 wins, which equals playoffs.

Okay, I see the point you're making, that you're talking aobut wins in games the starting pitchers started. Yeah, if they can do that, they're in the playoffs.

the gooch
01-02-2007, 12:43 PM
It is very difficult to have all 5 of your starters have winning records. .500 out of the 5th spot is better than average. .500 out of the 1 or 2 guys is completely unacceptable.

Look around the major leagues and find the worst starter on any staff and see if their team is .500 in their starts. I'm guessing you won't find many.

The Sox need a couple starters to have team records around 21-11, a couple around 19-14, and one around .500.

I'd say Garland and Buehrle need to step up and be the 1-2 starters this year.You missed my point. I would do cartwheels if the sox had a .500 record out of the 5th spot in our rotation. Calling it acceptable was, in my opinion, a gross understatement.

cheezheadsoxfan
01-02-2007, 01:17 PM
I think Danks or Floyd, although I would love to see Haeger effective.

itsnotrequired
01-02-2007, 01:41 PM
You missed my point. I would do cartwheels if the sox had a .500 record out of the 5th spot in our rotation. Calling it acceptable was, in my opinion, a gross understatement.

Right over my head.

:redface:

caulfield12
01-02-2007, 10:26 PM
Kenny Williams was high enough on Todd Richie (who was 15-9 for the Pirates in 1999) that to get him he traded two highly though of prospects and a reliever who turned out to have no career left.

The question is whether Floyd is another Ritchie or McCarthy is another Ritchie. It's also possible that none of them, including McCarthy, has a solid baseball career ahead of them.


I would say the bloom was off Wells a little (from a Sox perspective certainly) and Fogg was not even felt to be a viable 5th starter, he once made the Top 10 prospects at #10 but certainly wasn't a so-called "upper tier" prospect by any stretch of the imagination.

JB98
01-03-2007, 12:27 AM
I don't expect a real good spring from Haeger because the knuckler doesn't work well in Arizona. My guess is the organization would like Floyd to win the job.

fquaye149
01-03-2007, 02:51 AM
What could Freddy have done? Unless he changes something this season, teams will continue to run off him just like they have for the last several years.

You can do the following things as a non-knuckler:

a.) check the runners at 1st and 2nd

b.) if that's not effective, try mixing up the cadences of your checks of the runners at 1st and 2nd

c.) work on developing a slidestep

d.) shake off offspeed pitches on running counts

e.) acknowledge the fact that you need to find a way to keep baserunners from running at will

not sure which of these freddy was working on....

itsnotrequired
01-03-2007, 06:51 AM
You can do the following things as a non-knuckler:

a.) check the runners at 1st and 2nd

b.) if that's not effective, try mixing up the cadences of your checks of the runners at 1st and 2nd

c.) work on developing a slidestep

d.) shake off offspeed pitches on running counts

e.) acknowledge the fact that you need to find a way to keep baserunners from running at will

not sure which of these freddy was working on....

Oh, I know what can be done to keep runners on. I was suggesting that Freddy isn't working on this or if he is, he isn't doing a good job. Freddy had 40 bags swiped on him last year, most in the AL. Wakefield (a knuckleballer), was a distant second with 24. Only 19 bases were stolen off Freddy in 2005.

caulfield12
01-03-2007, 08:57 AM
I don't imagine those stolen bases are going to go down in the NL either.

He just didn't care, at least it seemed. When he has his really good stuff, he could pitch over that, but not last season.

Jose had troubles too, but he didn't put nearly as many runners on base, especially when he had his act together the first three months of the season.

ondafarm
01-03-2007, 10:07 AM
You can do the following things as a non-knuckler:

a.) check the runners at 1st and 2nd

b.) if that's not effective, try mixing up the cadences of your checks of the runners at 1st and 2nd

c.) work on developing a slidestep

d.) shake off offspeed pitches on running counts

e.) acknowledge the fact that you need to find a way to keep baserunners from running at will

not sure which of these freddy was working on....

Keeping runners from stealing is mostly about throwing their timing off. Being unpredictable in your cadence, looking over frequently at random times.