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sox1970
12-28-2006, 11:02 AM
Per mlb.com

http://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/news/article.jsp?ymd=20061228&content_id=1768001&vkey=hotstove2006&fext=.jsp

Minaya is on the horn with KW now, I'm sure. Vazquez will be traded soon. Book it.

spawn
12-28-2006, 11:04 AM
KW is not about to trade Vazquez.

goon
12-28-2006, 11:10 AM
Per mlb.com

http://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/news/article.jsp?ymd=20061228&content_id=1768001&vkey=hotstove2006&fext=.jsp

Minaya is on the horn with KW now, I'm sure. Vazquez will be traded soon. Book it.


no thanks.

Brian26
12-28-2006, 11:13 AM
Vazquez will be traded soon. Book it.

We've traded two of our six starting pitchers so far. The window for trading Vazquez is now closed. As much as I was disappointed with his performance last year, I'll be rooting for him to be solid in 2007, because the Sox will need him to step up.

sox1970
12-28-2006, 11:13 AM
no thanks.

It would depend on who the Sox got back. I'm not saying I want Vazquez traded, but it wouldn't surprise me if Minaya wanted Vazquez since they were together in Montreal. One thing is for sure- Minaya will try to get a pitcher from the White Sox.

Over By There
12-28-2006, 11:20 AM
The article (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2710389) on ESPN's front page says 7 years @ $18M per. :mg:

goon
12-28-2006, 11:25 AM
It would depend on who the Sox got back. I'm not saying I want Vazquez traded, but it wouldn't surprise me if Minaya wanted Vazquez since they were together in Montreal. One thing is for sure- Minaya will try to get a pitcher from the White Sox.


sure, but the sox have now traded an established starter, who was our number three and the player who was supposed to take the number five spot. unless the sox receive a player who can come in and win 12-15 games, i doubt KW pulls the trigger.

goon
12-28-2006, 11:29 AM
The article (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2710389) on ESPN's front page says 7 years @ $18M per. :mg:


wow. all those moves for young pitching are looking better and better by the day. good job, KW.

Ol' No. 2
12-28-2006, 11:32 AM
wow. all those moves by KW for young pitchers are looking better and better by the day.You betcha. If Buehrle has a good year and decides to go the FA route, he'll get a similar contract. Kenny's "despicable strategy" won't look quite so bad.

Mickster
12-28-2006, 11:33 AM
wow. all those moves for young pitching are looking better and better by the day. good job, KW.

I doubted that he would sign for $100M. Now, with the option year, this could top out at $144M. Unbelievable!!! :o:

FloridaSox
12-28-2006, 11:40 AM
Yes, unbelievable, is right...and with that it now appears certain that all four of our current big four starters are gone at the end of their contracts...I believe that means Mark and Javier next year, JG the following year and Jose in two years.

Hope those young arms get good real fast.

itsnotrequired
12-28-2006, 11:44 AM
You betcha. If Buehrle has a good year and decides to go the FA route, he'll get a similar contract. Kenny's "despicable strategy" won't look quite so bad.

Fiscal responsibility has no place in professional sports.

Irishsox1
12-28-2006, 11:51 AM
Nothing pissed me off more that staying up till midnight watching Zito get away with curve balls that were way out of the strike zone.

Hendu
12-28-2006, 12:15 PM
The Giants will regret this deal at some point. Probably sooner rather than later.

BeviBall!
12-28-2006, 12:18 PM
I doubted that he would sign for $100M. Now, with the option year, this could top out at $144M. Unbelievable!!! :o:

Boras is good at what he does.

spawn
12-28-2006, 12:20 PM
Boras is good at what he does.
This a very good point. Love him or hate him, he gets top dollar for those he represents, no matter if they are worth it or not.

buehrle4cy05
12-28-2006, 12:20 PM
:rolling:

It's obvious what happened here. Bora$$ told Sabean that Texas and probably both New York teams were close to signing Zito, and Sabean bit like a stupid fish and overpaid Zito. Wow.

Hendu
12-28-2006, 12:24 PM
This a very good point. love him or hate him, he gets top dollar for those he represents, no matter if they are worth it or not.

And no matter who he screws over in the process.

soxinem1
12-28-2006, 12:28 PM
I am very happy about this signing. It gets Zito out of the AL and out of the White Sox hair.

That great SF OF defense should help him win the NL Cy Young Award!

Also, if given the choice, I'd give Zito $18 million a year before I give Lily $10 million per, or Vazquez/Suppan $11 million per.

Ol' No. 2
12-28-2006, 12:29 PM
And no matter who he screws over in the process.It's not his job to look out for the team. They have people they pay to do that. His job is to get the best deal he can for the player he represents. If he wasn't doing what the players wanted he wouldn't have any clients.

soltrain21
12-28-2006, 12:31 PM
What a dumb move by the Giants.


This is why I think we could have waited a little longer to trade Freddy. He probably could have got a little bit more out of Philly. Maybe an extra prospect.

goon
12-28-2006, 12:31 PM
Yes, unbelievable, is right...and with that it now appears certain that all four of our current big four starters are gone at the end of their contracts...I believe that means Mark and Javier next year, JG the following year and Jose in two years.

Hope those young arms get good real fast.

possibly. with jose's age, unless he opts to become a reliever which might be an option, will probably be gone after his contract, however i'm not sure what will happen with mark, jon and javier. i still think they may try to sign one or two to long term contracts if the money is right, jon and mark are still considerably young and have proved themselves. i'm not necessarily buying into roger's claims that the organization is going to dump everyone, that seems a little over the top even if we do have a TON of young pitching talent.

i'm loving this.

SOX ADDICT '73
12-28-2006, 12:33 PM
Boras is good at what he does.
:kermit

goon
12-28-2006, 12:37 PM
I am very happy about this signing. It gets Zito out of the AL and out of the White Sox hair.

That great SF OF defense should help him win the NL Cy Young Award!

Also, if given the choice, I'd give Zito $18 million a year before I give Lily $10 million per, or Vazquez/Suppan $11 million per.

zito is a good pitcher, but i don't think he's worth $18 million even if ted lily is getting $11. i suppose that is the dilemma bestowed upon teams nowadays.

Fake Chet Lemon
12-28-2006, 12:44 PM
I am very happy about this signing. It gets Zito out of the AL and out of the White Sox hair.

That great SF OF defense should help him win the NL Cy Young Award!

Also, if given the choice, I'd give Zito $18 million a year before I give Lily $10 million per, or Vazquez/Suppan $11 million per.

AMEN! I understand paying top dollar for excellence. But paying near-top dollar for average just makes zero sense.

Gammons Peter
12-28-2006, 12:47 PM
Don't you think that Texas or the Mets would have given us more if we had waited for Zito to sign before trading away our pitchers

Hendu
12-28-2006, 12:53 PM
AMEN! I understand paying top dollar for excellence. But paying near-top dollar for average just makes zero sense.

That's of course assuming that Zito = excellence. And I'm not sure I'm sold on that assumption.

spawn
12-28-2006, 01:16 PM
Don't you think that Texas or the Mets would have given us more if we had waited for Zito to sign before trading away our pitchers
Everyone keeps saying we could've gotten more for what we traded away, and I keep wondering what more we could've gotten? We traded away two pitchers and got back 4 in return. We trade away Gload and get a 5th. We also trade away a prospect who may never make it to the majors for another pitcher who is a longshot as well. We've gotten 6 pitchers this off-season. Sure, they all won't make it, but there was no guarantee that McCarthy was going to win 15 games for us this season. And as has been mentioned, none of them will command the money that is being shelled out this off-season. I think KW did very well.

Fenway
12-28-2006, 01:19 PM
This a very good point. Love him or hate him, he gets top dollar for those he represents, no matter if they are worth it or not.

case in point JD Drew (but that deal looking very iffy right now)

Ol' No. 2
12-28-2006, 01:19 PM
Don't you think that Texas or the Mets would have given us more if we had waited for Zito to sign before trading away our pitchersIt's also possible he would have gotten less if the players he had targetted were traded to other teams. If you're GM you can't approach it as a game of chicken. You make a list of the players you want and when you get an opportunity to get them you pull the trigger.

batmanZoSo
12-28-2006, 01:21 PM
You betcha. If Buehrle has a good year and decides to go the FA route, he'll get a similar contract. Kenny's "despicable strategy" won't look quite so bad.

Right?

No thank you.

Hendu
12-28-2006, 01:25 PM
It's also possible he would have gotten less if the players he had targetted were traded to other teams. If you're GM you can't approach it as a game of chicken. You make a list of the players you want and when you get an opportunity to get them you pull the trigger.

Not to mention that Kenny probably thought the Zito thing would drag out a lot longer than it has, and he didn't want to wait until the last second to make any deals.

I'm kind of surprised that Boras didn't at least wait to see if the Yankees could deal Big Unit and enter the bidding for Zito.

soxinem1
12-28-2006, 01:30 PM
Don't you think that Texas or the Mets would have given us more if we had waited for Zito to sign before trading away our pitchers

Denks was impossible to pry from TEX by numerous other teams for a couple years.

As is the case with any trade, there are risks, but who's to say McCarthy would be a guaranteed 15-18 game winner and toss 200+ innings. Maybe, maybe not.

batmanZoSo
12-28-2006, 01:33 PM
KW is ahead of the game; he's brilliant. Young is totally the way to go.

I pity San Fran, but then...I don't.

Jerksticks
12-28-2006, 01:34 PM
This smells like Mike Hampton's 40 yr 200 million deal in Colorado. JR is right. Long Term pitching contracts just don't make sense. So risky.

What DOES make sense is paying pitchers an ass load of money though. I wish pitchers made way more money than position players. WOuldn't you rather have Zito for 7 years than Soriano (assuming they put up trendable numbers)?

soxinem1
12-28-2006, 01:48 PM
Free Agency is incredible. You pay a boatload of cash for what a guy did for another team, in their prime. Other than a few guys like Maddux, Johnson, and Mussina, how often do these pitchers go on to perform like aces for the duration of their contracts when they go to their new teams?

My 2007 boo-birds:

Suppan, Meche, Marquis, Lilly. $160 million of mediocrity. Unbelieveable. Guaranteed.

sox1970
12-28-2006, 01:49 PM
KW is ahead of the game; he's brilliant. Young is totally the way to go.

I agree KW will look like a genius if this all pans out, but I still want Buehrle and Garland back in 2007. And if they have good years, I want the Sox to pony up the money for 2008-2012 for them. The market is the market, and at some point you have to pay for quality pitching. There's no guarantee Floyd, Gonzalez, and Danks will be 220 inning, 15-18 game winners.

Especially with Buehrle. If he bounces back to a 240 inning, 16-18 game winner in 2007, he should get a 5 year contract--because that's the market.

Hendu
12-28-2006, 01:50 PM
What DOES make sense is paying pitchers an ass load of money though. I wish pitchers made way more money than position players. WOuldn't you rather have Zito for 7 years than Soriano (assuming they put up trendable numbers)?

While I agree that good pitchers are more rare and more important than good position players, it makes sense to pay players who starts almost every game more than pitchers who start every 5th game.

Also, position players are a lot easier to predict future success. You can pretty much pencil A-Rod in for about .300, 35 homeruns, 100+ rbi. Can you pencil Zito in for 15-20 wins and a sub 3.5 era?

Plus, pitchers' injuries usually take much longer to heal than injuries suffered by position players.

kwkonsl
12-28-2006, 01:56 PM
Per mlb.com

http://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/news/article.jsp?ymd=20061228&content_id=1768001&vkey=hotstove2006&fext=.jsp

Minaya is on the horn with KW now, I'm sure. Vazquez will be traded soon. Book it.


The only way I would ever consider trading another one of our starters (Most likey Vazquez becaue Minaya likes him) to the Mets is for Pelfrey, that outfield prospect I think his name is Milldege, along with another pitching prospect of our choice in A or AA. Even then I would be sceptical. Pelfrey is the real deal. I played against him at Witchita State and he is going to be a #2 type pitcher, and will be in the Majors before Danks and the majority of other pitchers we have aquired. We need a true 4th outfielder who can play good defense. Milldeges offense is holding him back but just like BA he will only inporve with AB's. he should be ready to take over in Left or right once Dye and Pods are gone. I wouldn't mind an outfield mix of Milldege, BA and Sweeney in 08 along with a proven veteran that we should sign (ie. Give Dye an extension or aquire someone of his caliber). That is cheap and effective outfield. The last prospect is a throw in and you never know if he'll pan out.

Jjav829
12-28-2006, 02:14 PM
Per mlb.com

http://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/news/article.jsp?ymd=20061228&content_id=1768001&vkey=hotstove2006&fext=.jsp

Minaya is on the horn with KW now, I'm sure. Vazquez will be traded soon. Book it.

Hey, if Minaya wants to throw Pelfrey over this way, I might not mind that.

The Zito contract might be the worst one handed out this offseason. 7 years for Zito? Does anyone think Zito will be worth $18 million in the 5th year of this deal? Hell, does anyone think Zito will be worth $18 million in the 2nd year of this deal? At least when Suppan starts to suck, the Brewers will be able to get rid of him after the 4 years are up. The Giants are going to have that giant, nearly-immovable deal for 7 years! Ridiculous.

MrX
12-28-2006, 02:26 PM
Hey, if Minaya wants to throw Pelfrey over this way, I might not mind that.
I agree.

Kenny would have to overcome his own man-crush on Javy to do it.

VenturaIsAGod
12-28-2006, 02:27 PM
First off, unbelievable.

Secondly, does anyone think this is possibly the start of a continuing trend and not just a one-year over-inflation of the market? Obviously, teams are spending money because they have it, and if teams like the Giants and Blue Jays have it, then we definitely have it. I don't think we should just forget about paying $15mil/year to our pitchers if everyone else has that kind of money for them. Even if the market seems ridiculous to us right now, what if it's just the owners finally spending what they should've been spending a while ago?

I don't really believe this theory, but I'm sure you guys could see what I'm talking about. Maybe we should be giving out a couple of these contracts as well?

buehrle4cy05
12-28-2006, 02:45 PM
I don't really believe this theory, but I'm sure you guys could see what I'm talking about. Maybe we should be giving out a couple of these contracts as well?

But what if the market slows down in a few years? Then we're stuck with a few albatross contracts that would cripple our efforts to sign other players that we need. I think KW is doing the right thing by getting a lot of young guys so we won't have to worry about re-signing them to massive deals in the near future.

SouthSide_HitMen
12-28-2006, 02:47 PM
I guess this (http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=82526) thread looks a bit silly at this point.

As a Mets fan, I am pleased we are not stuck with this deal.

Daver
12-28-2006, 02:49 PM
First off, unbelievable.

Secondly, does anyone think this is possibly the start of a continuing trend and not just a one-year over-inflation of the market? Obviously, teams are spending money because they have it, and if teams like the Giants and Blue Jays have it, then we definitely have it. I don't think we should just forget about paying $15mil/year to our pitchers if everyone else has that kind of money for them. Even if the market seems ridiculous to us right now, what if it's just the owners finally spending what they should've been spending a while ago?

I don't really believe this theory, but I'm sure you guys could see what I'm talking about. Maybe we should be giving out a couple of these contracts as well?

The trend in the last 15 years or so has been for the FA market to be insane in the offseason after a labor agreement is reached, and escalate down over the period of that CBA. Only time will tell if that will continue to be the case.

ShoelessJoeS
12-28-2006, 02:53 PM
Good, take his ass out of the AL. He always seems to give us fits.

MrX
12-28-2006, 02:57 PM
I don't really believe this theory, but I'm sure you guys could see what I'm talking about. Maybe we should be giving out a couple of these contracts as well?
You want the Sox to give out insane contracts just for the sake of giving out insane contracts?:o:

Frater Perdurabo
12-28-2006, 03:00 PM
Those of you hoping for a "market correction" and for prices to come down in a year or two almost certainly will be disappointed.

Baseball is bringing in record profits and record crowds and there is labor peace. IMHO, only a serious slowdown in the U.S. economy brought about by a massive terrorist attack, or a massive steroid/HGH scandal (not just involving the usual suspects - Bonds, Sosa, McGwire, Giambi, etc. - but, say, 40% of all active players) that drives away fans in droves, will cause a "market correction."

Unless he tanks this year, Buehrle will command a Zito-like contract if he becomes a free agent. If Garland keeps winning 15-17 games per year and becomes a free agent, he too will get a nine-figure deal when his current contract expires.

I certainly hope KW is able to keep Buehrle and Garland, but there are no guarantees. If he keeps both, a hypothetical 2009 White Sox Payroll could include PK at $12M, Buehrle at $17M and Garland at $15M. That's $44M on three players. Now, with solid revenue growth, team payroll could rise to the $125 million range, but even so still it shows how important it is for the Sox to find and develop young pitching (and position player) talent!

veeter
12-28-2006, 03:00 PM
I agree KW will look like a genius if this all pans out, but I still want Buehrle and Garland back in 2007. And if they have good years, I want the Sox to pony up the money for 2008-2012 for them. The market is the market, and at some point you have to pay for quality pitching. There's no guarantee Floyd, Gonzalez, and Danks will be 220 inning, 15-18 game winners.

Especially with Buehrle. If he bounces back to a 240 inning, 16-18 game winner in 2007, he should get a 5 year contract--because that's the market.I like this. Go young, and don't get bullied by agents or the market. BUT, with 3,000,000 fans coming to the park, pay your home-grown stud pitchers. The thing that has always separated MB and Garland is their durability. Reward them and Sox fans by keeping them around long term.

Frater Perdurabo
12-28-2006, 03:08 PM
I like this. Go young, and don't get bullied by agents or the market. BUT, with 3,000,000 fans coming to the park, pay your home-grown stud pitchers. The thing that has always separated MB and Garland is their durability. Reward them and Sox fans by keeping them around long term.

I would love it if KW used a sizable chunk of the payroll to retain Buehrle and Garland, and then rotated in young fireballers and young but skilled position players.

VenturaIsAGod
12-28-2006, 03:15 PM
You want the Sox to give out insane contracts just for the sake of giving out insane contracts?:o:

Are you kidding me?? That's not even remotely close to what I said. First of all, it's a theory that I myself don't fully believe, and it'd be giving out insane contracts to keep your players when the time comes to resign them.

oeo
12-28-2006, 03:15 PM
I'll never understand this. Zito could have went to any team he wanted (under a reasonable contract, at least), and he picks the ****ing Giants? Either way, you're going to get a lot of money, so why not take a discount (I'm sure you could have taken a small discount and gone to the Mets) and have a chance to do something that's actually fun: win.

Not that I'm complaining, make him suffer in San Francisco, but I can almost guarantee he will regret his choice when he's nearing the end of his career without a ring.

soltrain21
12-28-2006, 03:18 PM
I'll never understand this. Zito could have went to any team he wanted (under a reasonable contract, at least), and he picks the ****ing Giants? Either way, you're going to get a lot of money, so why not take a discount (I'm sure you could have taken a small discount and gone to the Mets) and have a chance to do something that's actually fun: win.

Not that I'm complaining, make him suffer in San Francisco, but I can almost guarantee he will regret his choice when he's nearing the end of his career without a ring.


Probably didn't wanna move.

oeo
12-28-2006, 03:22 PM
Probably didn't wanna move.

Alright, but he's still (reasonably) young. I guess I just don't get what is so fun about playing on a losing team (and that will not be very good for a long while). Get your money, your ring, and then come back to the West Coast...hell, you might even end up liking the East Coast.

fquaye149
12-28-2006, 03:35 PM
I agree KW will look like a genius if this all pans out, but I still want Buehrle and Garland back in 2007. And if they have good years, I want the Sox to pony up the money for 2008-2012 for them. The market is the market, and at some point you have to pay for quality pitching. There's no guarantee Floyd, Gonzalez, and Danks will be 220 inning, 15-18 game winners.

Especially with Buehrle. If he bounces back to a 240 inning, 16-18 game winner in 2007, he should get a 5 year contract--because that's the market.

IF Buehrle bounces back I would love to see that happens

and IF he decides the White Sox are who he wants to play with

and IF he doesn't cost 18 million a year I would love to resign him

but that's a lot of IF's for a pitcher who has never once in his career resembled an ace....

and I love Buehrle more than any other player on the Sox right now....

veeter
12-28-2006, 03:37 PM
Probably didn't wanna move.Nah, just wanted to play with Bonds.

SOXSINCE'70
12-28-2006, 03:44 PM
The article (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2710389) on ESPN's front page says 7 years @ $18M per. :mg:

If this is true,God only knows what Beuhrle and Garcia will
be worth when they hit the free agent market after the 2007
season.:o:

spawn
12-28-2006, 03:55 PM
Nah, just wanted to play with Bonds.
Who wouldn't?

munchman33
12-28-2006, 04:04 PM
I would love it if KW used a sizable chunk of the payroll to retain Buehrle and Garland, and then rotated in young fireballers and young but skilled position players.

I hope Buehrle rebounds, but I don't even want the sox to make an effort to retain him. Guys of his ilk don't generally continue the same kind of success into their 30's. I don't want to find out at close to $20 million per year.

psyclonis
12-28-2006, 04:05 PM
Wow, this deal makes the Garcia trade look like gold.
Great deal Kenny.

veeter
12-28-2006, 04:07 PM
I hope Buehrle rebounds, but I don't even want the sox to make an effort to retain him. Guys of his ilk don't generally continue the same kind of success into their 30's. I don't want to find out at close to $20 million per year.I think Glavine is of his ilk.

fquaye149
12-28-2006, 04:09 PM
I think Glavine is of his ilk.


left-handed?

Glavine has plus stuff

veeter
12-28-2006, 04:14 PM
Glavine, since turning 30 has gone 166-109. I think Mark can perform at least that well.

munchman33
12-28-2006, 04:26 PM
Glavine, since turning 30 has gone 166-109. I think Mark can perform at least that well.

Glavine has waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay better stuff than Mark does. Expecting Mark to have that kind of career past thirty is beyond a pipe dream.

fquaye149
12-28-2006, 04:27 PM
Glavine has waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay better stuff than Mark does. Expecting Mark to have that kind of career past thirty is beyond a pipe dream.


Even Maddux, who people constantly bring up when they're talking about Burly's style of pitching has much better stuff.

I like Mark a lot. He's my favorite player...and I HOPE he does well for the rest of his very long career...but I think expecting him to win 160 games after his 30th birthday is a little unreasonable

santo=dorf
12-28-2006, 04:28 PM
Wow, this deal makes the Garcia trade look like gold.
Great deal Kenny.
:?:

So Zito will be 36 or 37 when the deal is up? I imagine Sabean will make another 5 year committment to him after that.

I think Zito will be pretty good next year in that park along with Dodger stadium, Petco and the humidor balls.

Tragg
12-28-2006, 04:30 PM
Glavine is a corner pitcher. His fastball rarely hits 90 MPH.

13 mill per for Zito is a bargain compared to what received 10 mill; the duration is a problem, however.

fquaye149
12-28-2006, 04:31 PM
Glavine is a corner pitcher. His fastball rarely hits 90 MPH.

That was not always the case. Glavine in his mid 30's pitches like Buehrle pitches NOW?

That doesn't bode well for the comparison

Tragg
12-28-2006, 04:37 PM
That was not always the case. Glavine in his mid 30's pitches like Buehrle pitches NOW?

That doesn't bode well for the comparison

He had decent, not great, stuff, in his prime. He also benefitted from an extremely wide strike zone on a consistent basis. Frank Pulli enhanced Glavine's career a lot.

I think MB at his best is every bit as good as Glavine at his best. Not that it means anything now, or is relevant, though.

veeter
12-28-2006, 04:39 PM
Glavine has waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay better stuff than Mark does. Expecting Mark to have that kind of career past thirty is beyond a pipe dream.This is waaaaaaaaaaaay wrong. The only way I think Glavine has even pitched as well and long as he has, is because the NL completely sucks. In what way does Glavine have better stuff than Mark. Hell, I wouldn't even say Glavine has 'stuff'. He mixes speeds and spots his fastball. Sound familiar? He also was the beneficiary of 4-6 inches off the plate in the 90's, when the umps (Eric Gregg and co.) were giving that. You act like he's Sam McDowell.

HotelWhiteSox
12-28-2006, 04:44 PM
I'm not closing the book on any trades, anyone would have called you insane if you had predicted the mccarthy trade the day before.

:?:


agreed

ondafarm
12-28-2006, 04:45 PM
Two points.

1) It's great that Zito has signed with the Giants. The Sox won't have to deal with him except in the World Series or the occasional interleague.

2) This year will be critical to see if Buehrle will be a 300 win guy or not. If he comes back in great shape and has rededicated himself to staying in shape and he pitches well this year, then he could be a 300 win man. I think he will come back and win 20 games for the Sox this year. AND YOU HEARD IT HERE FIRST!!!

getonbckthr
12-28-2006, 04:48 PM
This deal effects the White Sox in 2 ways. A) The price of Mark Buerhle just skyrocketed, B) The Mets are now probably desperately calling Kenny. Ask yourself this could any of our kids or the Pelfrey kid from the Mets perform on the same level that Mark and Javy did in 06? I would think yes therefor if the Mets are willing to offer Milledge and Pelfrey for Javy you do it and don't look back.

On a side note Zito will be a Yankee by 09.

veeter
12-28-2006, 04:50 PM
Two points.

1) It's great that Zito has signed with the Giants. The Sox won't have to deal with him except in the World Series or the occasional interleague.

2) This year will be critical to see if Buehrle will be a 300 win guy or not. If he comes back in great shape and has rededicated himself to staying in shape and he pitches well this year, then he could be a 300 win man. I think he will come back and win 20 games for the Sox this year. AND YOU HEARD IT HERE FIRST!!!Agreed. But we'll probably be accused of over valuing Sox players. Players that have won a championship. Please.

fquaye149
12-28-2006, 04:51 PM
This is waaaaaaaaaaaay wrong. The only way I think Glavine has even pitched as well and long as he has, is because the NL completely sucks. In what way does Glavine have better stuff than Mark. Hell, I wouldn't even say Glavine has 'stuff'. He mixes speeds and spots his fastball. Sound familiar? He also was the beneficiary of 4-6 inches off the plate in the 90's, when the umps (Eric Gregg and co.) were giving that. You act like he's Sam McDowell.

He threw harder than Mark...which many people consider a big difference in pitchers...and was one of the main reason Buehrle didn't get picked until very late in the draft

For the record, I think it's overstated...but I still think it's a noteworthy difference in the pitchers

Tragg
12-28-2006, 04:54 PM
B) Ask yourself this could any of our kids or the Pelfrey kid from the Mets perform on the same level that Mark and Javy did in 06? I would think yes therefor if the Mets are willing to offer Milledge and Pelfrey for Javy you do it and don't look back.

That got us 3rd place.
And I'm not sure they can anyway.
It still might be the right stategy, but there should be some immense premium. I see that get (2 major prospects) as nothing more than we gave up in an average market last year for Javy (1 big time prospect and 2 ML pitchers).

ozzie is god
12-28-2006, 05:00 PM
If the Mets were going to give us Pelfery and Millege for Javy I would do it right now.

Flight #24
12-28-2006, 05:04 PM
All I know is that it'll be tough for Kenny to turn around and deal another starter for prospects.

whitem0nkey
12-28-2006, 06:03 PM
this and the bonderman signing got me thinking.

would it be wise for the sox to offer garland a new contract (more than 3 years), that would be below the market, but higher than what he would make the next 2 years. like the bonberman deal.

ondafarm
12-28-2006, 06:24 PM
this and the bonderman signing got me thinking.

would it be wise for the sox to offer garland a new contract (more than 3 years), that would be below the market, but higher than what he would make the next 2 years. like the bonberman deal.


The question is: would he sign it?

whitem0nkey
12-28-2006, 06:28 PM
The question is: would he sign it?

well you have to find that balance where he would want at least think about it.

ChiTownTrojan
12-28-2006, 06:56 PM
This deal effects the White Sox in 2 ways. A) The price of Mark Buerhle just skyrocketed, B) The Mets are now probably desperately calling Kenny. Ask yourself this could any of our kids or the Pelfrey kid from the Mets perform on the same level that Mark and Javy did in 06? I would think yes therefor if the Mets are willing to offer Milledge and Pelfrey for Javy you do it and don't look back.

On a side note Zito will be a Yankee by 09.

I don't think Buehrle's price has skyrocketed as much as some people do, for a few reasons:

1. Zito has won a Cy Young, Buehrle hasn't. Sure that was a few years ago, but it still counts when it comes down to the bargaining table. It also makes him more marketable to the fans.
2. Next year's free agent class is much better than this year's. The top names won't be getting deals as big as this year because they know there are other guys out there who would put up numbers close to the top guys at a fraction of the cost.

I think we can work something out with Mark. In 2009 we're not going to have a rotation of five kids for a total of $2 million. There will be at least two veterans in there, hopefully Buehrle and Garland.

brewcrew/chisox
12-28-2006, 06:58 PM
Previously, the largest contract for a pitcher was Mike Hampton's $121 million, eight-year deal with the Colorado Rockies before the 2001 season


And how's that deal working out for the Rockies?

:rolleyes:

Ol' No. 2
12-28-2006, 07:00 PM
I don't think Buehrle's price has skyrocketed as much as some people do, for a few reasons:

1. Zito has won a Cy Young, Buehrle hasn't. Sure that was a few years ago, but it still counts when it comes down to the bargaining table. It also makes him more marketable to the fans.
2. Next year's free agent class is much better than this year's. The top names won't be getting deals as big as this year because they know there are other guys out there who would put up numbers close to the top guys at a fraction of the cost.

I think we can work something out with Mark. In 2009 we're not going to have a rotation of five kids for a total of $2 million. There will be at least two veterans in there, hopefully Buehrle and Garland.I'll give you another reason:

3. The suckers will have blown their wads on mediocre pitching and won't have the payroll room left to throw money around like they have this year.

I wouldn't call Buehrle a lost cause. People had written off Garland and Contreras last year. He'll have to give a hometown discount because I don't see the Sox putting up the dough that other teams would, but OTOH, you won't have to pass the hat for him, either. As with Konerko, if he wants to stay, they'll make him a fair offer.

UserNameBlank
12-28-2006, 07:01 PM
If the Mets were going to give us Pelfery and Millege for Javy I would do it right now.

Sub Milledge with Heilman + Soler and I think that a deal HAS to be done, despite anything KW says.

If the Sox could go into 2007 with a rotation of Contreras-Garland-Buehrle-Heilman-Floyd with Soler, Pelfrey, Danks, Sisco, Gio, Phillips, Broadway, Heager all fighting for spots in AAA, the Sox would be in totally freaking awesome position IMO.

Edit: the mets probably wouldn't do that, but if the Sox could throw in a smaller piece to make that deal happen I'd be very, very happy with KW's offseason.

PaleHoseGeorge
12-28-2006, 07:32 PM
Zito is out of the league. Good, don't let the door hit you in the ass on the way out. Tonight there is renewed hope that next season the N.L. can send a better representative to the World Series than a 83-win team of World's Tallest Midgets.

I'm guessing KW's strategy of loading up on young arms is looking better and better to more and more WSIers... if not Phil Rogers, too...

Or maybe not...
:dtroll:

spiffie
12-28-2006, 07:50 PM
If this is where the pitching market is going over the next 2-3 years (before any sort of correction could really take hold), I'd almost rather see Kenny deal pretty much any starter he can going into this year if he can keep getting prospects of the Danks/Gonzalez level in there. I'd hate to see us be less competitive this year, but if the cost of a #1 pitcher is closing in on $20 million a year, I'd rather we have as many of those lotto tickets as possible waiting to be cashed in.

Let the bidding commence on Buehrle and Vazquez. I was critical of the Philly deal, but that was mostly because I would rather have acquired Hirsh than Floyd and Gonzalez. But oh well. The concept of the trade is fine by me. And I have fretted a lot over the possible lack of a 5th starter. But if this is what the market is spiraling towards...I say you kind of say "2007 will be what 2007 will be" and take advantage of this craziness while you can. Sure, it would suck to sit through a possible 70-92 season...but if we could scoop up another 5-8 prospects like the ones we've picked up this offseason, I'd give them the benefit of the doubt as a fan and not cut back my investment in the team.

This could be the moment for us. Liquidate now, stockpile insane amounts of pitching, and then in 3-4 years when the market has corrected, we'll be way ahead of the curve and able to take advantage of this insanity.

UserNameBlank
12-28-2006, 08:04 PM
If this is where the pitching market is going over the next 2-3 years (before any sort of correction could really take hold), I'd almost rather see Kenny deal pretty much any starter he can going into this year if he can keep getting prospects of the Danks/Gonzalez level in there. I'd hate to see us be less competitive this year, but if the cost of a #1 pitcher is closing in on $20 million a year, I'd rather we have as many of those lotto tickets as possible waiting to be cashed in.

Let the bidding commence on Buehrle and Vazquez. I was critical of the Philly deal, but that was mostly because I would rather have acquired Hirsh than Floyd and Gonzalez. But oh well. The concept of the trade is fine by me. And I have fretted a lot over the possible lack of a 5th starter. But if this is what the market is spiraling towards...I say you kind of say "2007 will be what 2007 will be" and take advantage of this craziness while you can. Sure, it would suck to sit through a possible 70-92 season...but if we could scoop up another 5-8 prospects like the ones we've picked up this offseason, I'd give them the benefit of the doubt as a fan and not cut back my investment in the team.

This could be the moment for us. Liquidate now, stockpile insane amounts of pitching, and then in 3-4 years when the market has corrected, we'll be way ahead of the curve and able to take advantage of this insanity.

I agree. If the Sox can get more top pitching prospects out of Vazquez and Buehrle I'd like to see it done.

First, if KW can get 2-3 top pitching prospects out of Vazquez, the original deal turns out to be Young + El Duque + Vizcaino for one year of Vazquez and top prospects, which makes that deal a winner IMO.

Secondly, I think the market wil correct itself after 2008. There is no way pitchers can keep getting these types of contracts without several teams being very badly burned. Someone's arm is going to fall off and some team is going to be on the hook for 70million or more. That alone is enough to bring a team out of contention and force a rebuilding project.

IMO, the best case scenario is one that sees KW trade at least Mark and Javy for more top arms. In exchange for a chance at the wildcard in 2007 instead of the division, the Sox put themselves in position to have one of the best young staffs in baseball while everyone else is trying to dump contracts. Then, once the market corrects itself, the Sox can go back to trading for veteran SP and signing them to reasonable contracts when holes appear.

Hitmen77
12-28-2006, 08:49 PM
I don't think Buehrle's price has skyrocketed as much as some people do, for a few reasons:

1. Zito has won a Cy Young, Buehrle hasn't. Sure that was a few years ago, but it still counts when it comes down to the bargaining table. It also makes him more marketable to the fans.
2. Next year's free agent class is much better than this year's. The top names won't be getting deals as big as this year because they know there are other guys out there who would put up numbers close to the top guys at a fraction of the cost.

I think we can work something out with Mark. In 2009 we're not going to have a rotation of five kids for a total of $2 million. There will be at least two veterans in there, hopefully Buehrle and Garland.

I'll give you another reason:

3. The suckers will have blown their wads on mediocre pitching and won't have the payroll room left to throw money around like they have this year.


how about this?

4. Buehrle had a completely awful 2nd half in '06. I don't think Zito has stumbled that badly in his career. I can see why KW is reluctant to just open up the checkbook for MB right now.

'07 will be very interesting. Buehrle rebounding might be just enough to get us back to the playoffs - but that'll drive his price up and may make it more likely he'll leave. Hey, if he can get us another trophy, it'll be worth the trade off.

Fake Chet Lemon
12-28-2006, 09:00 PM
this and the bonderman signing got me thinking.

would it be wise for the sox to offer garland a new contract (more than 3 years), that would be below the market, but higher than what he would make the next 2 years. like the bonberman deal.

Garland already gave Kenny a hometown discount on his current deal, and Kenny almost returned the favor by trading him. That sucks that that trade proposal went public. If I'm a player now, no way I give Willimas a hometown discount without a full no trade clause.

Fake Chet Lemon
12-28-2006, 09:03 PM
This could be the moment for us. Liquidate now, stockpile insane amounts of pitching, and then in 3-4 years when the market has corrected, we'll be way ahead of the curve and able to take advantage of this insanity.

That is insane. World Series' come around this town about once a century. We have a real chance to win one in 2007, and we should throw it away?

We never would have said that before 2005. Pretend 2005 never happened in every White Sox decision going forward, then the right decision will be made. DON'T EVER GIVE UP BEFORE THE SEASON STARTS.

Palehose Pete
12-28-2006, 09:20 PM
KW is ahead of the game; he's brilliant. Young is totally the way to go.


BatmanZoSo: I'm with you. The next couple of years will show KW to be a genius GM. This pitching market is going crazy and the Sox can ill afford to drop the sort of coin on one pitcher that someone like Mark B. will command in a year.

It's science.

UserNameBlank
12-28-2006, 09:23 PM
That is insane. World Series' come around this town about once a century. We have a real chance to win one in 2007, and we should throw it away?

We never would have said that before 2005. Pretend 2005 never happened in every White Sox decision going forward, then the right decision will be made. DON'T EVER GIVE UP BEFORE THE SEASON STARTS.

There are already questionmarks all over this team.

Will Thornton have the same type of season he had in '06 after his breakout?
Will MacDougal stay healthy?
How will Aardsma do in his first full season in the bullpen?
Will Sisco start in the minors or be in the bullpen, and if so, can he rebound from an awful 2006?
With only Jenks, Thornton, MacDougal, and Aardsma as locks, what other 2-3 pitchers will fill out the bullpen? And how will these guys fare in the majors without much experience, if any?
Who is our fifth starter? Will our no.5 work out, or will the Sox again have a revolving door at that spot?
How is Uribe going to play? Is he going to continue trending towards a bench player or will he improve?
Can Podsednik find confidence running the bases again? Will he stay injury free? How will he play in LF and, if he fails to hit and do the little things, can Ryan Sweeney take over for him?
Will Brian Anderson hit? If he doesn't who will play CF? Terrero?
Is Mackowiak still the backup CF?
Will Buehrle rebound? Or is the second-half '06 Mark going to show up instead?
Can Vazquez get past the 6th and 7th innings now? He has to because now he's going to be a no.4, and with a young bullpen still learning at the ML level, we need all the innings we can get out of our starters.
How will Crede do after his breakout season?
Will the Sox be able to get down a bunt this year?

See. Tons of questions, in fact many more questions than we had going into 2006 when we only had a couple of pen spots to worry about, or so it seemed.

IMO, depending on what the Indians do, this team could finish 4th just as easily as it could win the division. There is really no telling, as the only contending teams that, so far, have gotten better on paper in the Central are Detroit and Cleveland.

That said, the Sox should look not look at the '07 season as a lost cause, because it isn't, but KW should continue doing what he has been doing. One thing for sure is that KW is not looking at 2007 with a "we have to win now or we'll never ever win" attitiude, which is the same defeatist attitude many Sox fans are taking with them into next season.

FarWestChicago
12-28-2006, 09:23 PM
Probably didn't wanna move.

Alright, but he's still (reasonably) young. I guess I just don't get what is so fun about playing on a losing team (and that will not be very good for a long while). Get your money, your ring, and then come back to the West Coast...hell, you might even end up liking the East Coast.He won't need to find new connections. :smokin:

PaleHoseGeorge
12-28-2006, 09:28 PM
That is insane. World Series' come around this town about once a century. We have a real chance to win one in 2007, and we should throw it away?

We never would have said that before 2005. Pretend 2005 never happened in every White Sox decision going forward, then the right decision will be made. DON'T EVER GIVE UP BEFORE THE SEASON STARTS.

It seems to me you're far more interested in RELIVING 2005 than winning in 2007. I might have agreed with your above assessment before the 2006 season, and the Sox to their credit kept all our heroes together with one notable exception: trading Rowand which most of us gladly accepted since it meant getting Thome.

But the facts are the 2006 team DIDN'T WIN jack, even though most of the players were the same championship heroes from 2005. Something a bit different is definitely in order for 2007... and beyond.

I'll keep my 2005 memories and cherish them forever. However it's good advice to be more careful not to live in the past.

:iron
"The past is for cowards and losers."

batmanZoSo
12-28-2006, 09:52 PM
If this is where the pitching market is going over the next 2-3 years (before any sort of correction could really take hold), I'd almost rather see Kenny deal pretty much any starter he can going into this year if he can keep getting prospects of the Danks/Gonzalez level in there. I'd hate to see us be less competitive this year, but if the cost of a #1 pitcher is closing in on $20 million a year, I'd rather we have as many of those lotto tickets as possible waiting to be cashed in.

Let the bidding commence on Buehrle and Vazquez. I was critical of the Philly deal, but that was mostly because I would rather have acquired Hirsh than Floyd and Gonzalez. But oh well. The concept of the trade is fine by me. And I have fretted a lot over the possible lack of a 5th starter. But if this is what the market is spiraling towards...I say you kind of say "2007 will be what 2007 will be" and take advantage of this craziness while you can. Sure, it would suck to sit through a possible 70-92 season...but if we could scoop up another 5-8 prospects like the ones we've picked up this offseason, I'd give them the benefit of the doubt as a fan and not cut back my investment in the team.

This could be the moment for us. Liquidate now, stockpile insane amounts of pitching, and then in 3-4 years when the market has corrected, we'll be way ahead of the curve and able to take advantage of this insanity.

I like the path KW is on right now, it's a good mix of potential and established talent. There is no need for a firesale, though, that's out of the question. Is there a team out there that we can't theoretically beat? Who's that good?

champagne030
12-28-2006, 10:04 PM
I like the path KW is on right now, it's a good mix of potential and established talent. There is no need for a firesale, though, that's out of the question. Is there a team out there that we can't theoretically beat? Who's that good?

I'd say there's about 12 teams in the AL that can make that claim....not what I had in mind about a month ago.

I agree that KW is building very nice pitching potential for the future, but what about the ticket increase that will rake in close to $15M for 2007 or the other increased revenue streams (MLB.COM...)? It is early, but that money better be going to locking up someone (Crede, MB, ect.) or getting someone to fill our hole at 5th starter this season.

Flight #24
12-28-2006, 10:10 PM
I'm guessing KW's strategy of loading up on young arms is looking better and better to more and more WSIers... if not Phil Rogers, too...


Yes, it is, but it's also a ton riskier. Basically, they need to either have a market correction and be able to acquire solid SPs at a discount, or have a number of the current prospects pan out. Personally, I don't see it happening. If indeed there is a correction, it'll be guys like Lilly/Meche who are available, and I'd guess that if they're lucky, 3 of the current slew of prospects pan out.

IMO they will end up giving 2 guys (I'd guess Mark & Jon, but possibly Jon & Jose) extensions at market rates or maybe a slight $$ discount but the years they want. That's going to be the cost of doing business. It's just not practical to build an entire rotation internally given the vagaries of pitching prospects.

I'm willing to wait Kenny out on this, but if in fact they do deal everyone, I don't see it working out in terms of having a consistent playoff team. I'd love to be wrong, but I'd love even more to see them resign guys and keep the prospects for if/when they have out-year contract issues.

PKalltheway
12-28-2006, 11:10 PM
This move suprised the hell out of me. The Giants?! Mercy, they're an AWFUL team! I wouldn't be suprised if they lost between 82-88 games next year, even WITH Zito.

IMO, depending on what the Indians do, this team could finish 4th just as easily as it could win the division. There is really no telling, as the only contending teams that, so far, have gotten better on paper in the Central are Detroit and Cleveland.

That said, the Sox should look not look at the '07 season as a lost cause, because it isn't, but KW should continue doing what he has been doing. One thing for sure is that KW is not looking at 2007 with a "we have to win now or we'll never ever win" attitiude, which is the same defeatist attitude many Sox fans are taking with them into next season.

Exactly. 2007 is NOT by ANY MEANS a lost cause. Damn it, this team is still good. There are a lot of if's and but's, but, to use an old phrase, if if's and but's were candy and nuts, we'd all have a merry Christmas. There are questions surrounding every team.

UserNameBlank
12-28-2006, 11:26 PM
This move suprised the hell out of me. The Giants?! Mercy, they're an AWFUL team! I wouldn't be suprised if they lost between 82-88 games next year, even WITH Zito.



Exactly. 2007 is NOT by ANY MEANS a lost cause. Damn it, this team is still good. There are a lot of if's and but's, but, to use an old phrase, if if's and but's were candy and nuts, we'd all have a merry Christmas. There are questions surrounding every team.

lol

I haven't heard that one before but it is true, especially if you're hungry.

UserNameBlank
12-28-2006, 11:40 PM
Yes, it is, but it's also a ton riskier. Basically, they need to either have a market correction and be able to acquire solid SPs at a discount, or have a number of the current prospects pan out. Personally, I don't see it happening. If indeed there is a correction, it'll be guys like Lilly/Meche who are available, and I'd guess that if they're lucky, 3 of the current slew of prospects pan out.

IMO they will end up giving 2 guys (I'd guess Mark & Jon, but possibly Jon & Jose) extensions at market rates or maybe a slight $$ discount but the years they want. That's going to be the cost of doing business. It's just not practical to build an entire rotation internally given the vagaries of pitching prospects.

I'm willing to wait Kenny out on this, but if in fact they do deal everyone, I don't see it working out in terms of having a consistent playoff team. I'd love to be wrong, but I'd love even more to see them resign guys and keep the prospects for if/when they have out-year contract issues.

I don't see Mark getting the years he wants. I mean, even if Mark's favorite childhood team were the Sox and not the Cards, and even if Mark wanted to play here for the rest of his career, it would be hard as hell to convice him to sign with the Sox for say 4 years/$65 million instead of going to another team for something like 6 years/$95 million. Besides, I don't know if the Sox would even want to offer something like 4/65 anyway. But, IMO, if Buehrle has a good year that figure will probably be close to the starting point of negotiations.

Maybe not an entire rotation, but the Angels, A's, and Marlins are doing a pretty nice job of setting up rotations of pitchers that were either drafted and signed or acquired in trades as prospects.

Not everyone will work out, and that is why KW has been playing it safe and stockpiling these guys. I for one don't want the Sox to give Mark a Zito-like contract. That is totally absurd. And while Javy was a very nice option as a fifth starter, I don't think the deal worked out anywhere near as well as KW expected. I wouldn't mind seeing him moved just because he could end up as one of those guys that a team pays a ton for but never gets anything out of. Jose is aging but affordable and in great shape, so it wouldn't surprise me if he had good years throughout the rest of his contract. I doubt they'd extend him though, and if they did, it would probably be as a one year fifth starter thing IMO. Jon is the only one who, IMO, would be worth a bigger contract and I think he will get it as long as Jon would be willing to sign a 3 or 4 year deal, nothing longer.

SOX ADDICT '73
12-29-2006, 01:24 AM
He won't need to find new connections. :smokin:
So, the Giants now have Barroids AND Barry-juana? :tongue:

Grzegorz
12-29-2006, 04:53 AM
There are already questionmarks all over this team.

There are question marks with every team. Spring training should be used to answer those questions.

FarWestChicago
12-29-2006, 08:05 AM
So, the Giants now have Barroids AND Barry-juana? :tongue:Well done. :thumbsup:

Fake Chet Lemon
12-29-2006, 08:59 AM
There are already questionmarks all over this team.

.

Of course we have questions, like every team in baseball. But we also the best 3-4-5 hitters in the game, possibly still the best starters, and may wind up with one of the top pens with Jenks and Thornton as anchors. Sorry, but to me that sounds like a team that should be pulling out all the stops and GOING FOR IT IN 2007.

Fake Chet Lemon
12-29-2006, 09:04 AM
It seems to me you're far more interested in RELIVING 2005 than winning in 2007. ."

That's nuts, no way you can say that about me. Everyone is attacking me in every thread because I want to GO FOR IT in 2007. 2005 is dead to me, we are now the defending 3rd place AL Central team. Yuck. I'm the one guy on this board not obsessing with winning the World Series in 2009 and 2010. I want to win it in 2007. If that makes me public enemy #1 here, I'm all good with that.

sox1970
12-29-2006, 09:09 AM
That's nuts, no way you can say that about me. Everyone is attacking me in every thread because I want to GO FOR IT in 2007. 2005 is dead to me, we are now the defending 3rd place AL Central team. Yuck. I'm the one guy on this board not obsessing with winning the World Series in 2009 and 2010. I want to win it in 2007. If that makes me public enemy #1 here, I'm all good with that.

I hear you that you want the Sox to win a championship in 2007. I'm also kinda tired of the 2005 talk. It was great, but it's over. I'm sick of talk of grinder rules, small ball, Ozzie ball, and anything else that was overblown in 2005.

That said, I'm glad the Sox have a GM that thinks beyond the year that's coming up. If he only played for 2007, they possibly could lose, but also sacrifice 2-3 years out as well. There has to be a balance of looking at the present and future.

Fake Chet Lemon
12-29-2006, 09:18 AM
I hear you that you want the Sox to win a championship in 2007. I'm also kinda tired of the 2005 talk. It was great, but it's over. I'm sick of talk of grinder rules, small ball, Ozzie ball, and anything else that was overblown in 2005.

That said, I'm glad the Sox have a GM that thinks beyond the year that's coming up. If he only played for 2007, they possibly could lose, but also sacrifice 2-3 years out as well. There has to be a balance of looking at the present and future.

I understand there is a balance. But after 1985 everyone took it for granted the Bears would be back. Didn't happen. Too many here are losing sight of how precious it is to have a Championship caliber team is and how quickly the best laid plans for the future can fall apart and blow up in your face. We need to go for it NOW.

One big trade by Kenny changes the tone of all of us on this board. Please Kenny, pull it off like we know you can! :praying: :praying: :praying:

UserNameBlank
12-29-2006, 09:50 AM
Of course we have questions, like every team in baseball. But we also the best 3-4-5 hitters in the game, possibly still the best starters, and may wind up with one of the top pens with Jenks and Thornton as anchors. Sorry, but to me that sounds like a team that should be pulling out all the stops and GOING FOR IT IN 2007.

We didn't have the best staff last year when we had Garcia. Now we don't have a fifth starter, a 4th who has trouble getting into the 7th inning, and a lefty who is coming off the wrost year of his career. While it is theoretically possible, it is much more unlikely than anything else.

We may also wind up with a pen that can't get anyone out. If Sisco goes to the minors to start that will mean that out of Floyd, Phillips, Logan, Tracey, Aardsma, Heager, Masset, Oneli Perez, Paulino Reynoso, Sean Tracey, Dewon Day, and Carlos Vasquez we have a COMBINED 224.2 IP, with 172.2 of that coming from Floyd and Aardsma alone. Floyd, however, will be favored to win a starting spot either on the Sox or in Charlotte, leaving Aardsma as the only new acquistion with really any major league experience.

Now, all these guys could come and in throw lights-out, but it is not very likely. More likely there will be some serious growing pains in there and a lot of call-ups and demotions along the way. Add to this the fact that if Contreras gets injured or Buehrle stinks it up again, combined with an inevitably inconsistent fifth starter and Vazquez's issues going deep into games, our pen will be worked to the point where it will be hard to use pitchers situationally to hide weaknesses. Even if Buehrle, Garland, Contreras, and Vazquez are totally healthy all year, pitch 210+ innings each, and put up decent numbers, the pen will still certainly get a workout, and given the inexperience there, it is not difficult to imagine real problems popping up.

I'm not saying 2007 is lost because it isn't and anything can happen, but to come off like we are still in a position to dominate like we were in 2006 is stupid. Our 3-4-5 won't mean jack if our pitching staff is throwing gopher balls when our offense is cold. The reason the '06 team was supposed to be so great was because we had a whole staff of pitchers who, with the exception of Javy, were coming off of career-best type years.

The Sox are in a stage where they are still going to contend, but they are "looking forward" more than they are "going for it now" by the recent trades KW has made. Any move now that makes the "looking forward" part take a back seat to the "going for it now" part is a step in the wrong direction IMO, unless that move also helps us later.

Fake Chet Lemon
12-29-2006, 10:12 AM
Any move now that makes the "looking forward" part take a back seat to the "going for it now" part is a step in the wrong direction IMO, unless that move also helps us later.

On a team coming off a 90 win season, I just can't agree with that. Winning 90 games in the division we had last year means we had a hell of a team.

With the Twins scrambling for pitching (Radke, Liriano) and the Tigers staff having to deal with a long season last year, the division IS RIPE FOR THE TAKING. I just don't get everyone worried about 2010.

So much for a Zito thread!

UserNameBlank
12-29-2006, 10:22 AM
On a team coming off a 90 win season, I just can't agree with that. Winning 90 games in the division we had last year means we had a hell of a team.

With the Twins scrambling for pitching (Radke, Liriano) and the Tigers staff having to deal with a long season last year, the division IS RIPE FOR THE TAKING. I just don't get everyone worried about 2010.

So much for a Zito thread!

I don't think anyone is trying to throw the season away. Why would KW spend money on Toby Hall if he were, when Chris Stewart is sitting in Charlotte wanting to play?

All I'm saying is take a look at where we are. We are in good position for both now and in the future. If something came along that made us even better now and even better in the future (like trading top prospects for young, proven major leaguers), we should take it. If something else came long that made us better now and screwed us in the future (like trading top prospects for an aging veteran) we shouldn't. And finally if something came along that made us a bit worse now but potentially a ton better next year and beyond (like getting a ransom of top pitching prospects out of Mark or Javy), well, KW should take a good long look at it. For some like you, maybe you wouldn't do it. But if KW is "bowled over," I certainly would.

Fake Chet Lemon
12-29-2006, 10:55 AM
... if something came along that made us a bit worse now but potentially a ton better next year and beyond (like getting a ransom of top pitching prospects out of Mark or Javy), well, KW should take a good long look at it. For some like you, maybe you wouldn't do it. But if KW is "bowled over," I certainly would.

No I wouldn't, the division in '07 is there for the taking. But I'm with you on everything else.

"Prospects are suspects." - Kenny Williams

maurice
12-29-2006, 02:02 PM
I'd just like to point out that the Sox finished in 3rd place last year behind 2 teams who had young prospects step into the rotation and bullpen and kick some serious ass for most of the year, while our high-paid, "proven veterans" posted 4.something ERAs. How much did you expect Jenks and Cotts to produce in 2005? How much did you expect Thornton to produce in 2006? Etc.

Please don't immitate the Trib staff. Let's wait until at least the end of May before we definitively conclude that KW didn't help the team in 2007.

jabrch
12-29-2006, 11:20 PM
Zito got FULL NO TRADE PROTECTION... WOW

itsnotrequired
12-29-2006, 11:34 PM
Zito got FULL NO TRADE PROTECTION... WOW

Are you serious? Was this ever in question?

jabrch
12-30-2006, 12:55 AM
Are you serious? Was this ever in question?

I'm surprised you'd have to give the guy full no-trade, in addition to all that money for all that time. This is Barry Zito, not Johan Santana.

itsnotrequired
12-30-2006, 01:20 AM
I'm surprised you'd have to give the guy full no-trade, in addition to all that money for all that time. This is Barry Zito, not Johan Santana.

This is also the #1 pitcher in the FA class. I'm surprised the guy didn't get a solid gold rocket car as part of the deal.:tongue: