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White Sox Randy
12-25-2006, 01:49 AM
CFer, right ? Here's most likely where Kenny can deal:

Washington has Escobar, Church and Logan. Any of them would be a nice little inexpensive addition for the Sox.

Tampa Bay has Baldelli or Crawford but abviously this would be a big costly move that Kenny would have to outbid a number of teams for and cost the Sox a lot of depth - might be unwise at this point.

Other players I could see Kenny making a move for are Figgins or Endy Chavez.

Washington and Tampa Bay are desperate for pitching so I think that's where we'll deal.

I'd like to see us give up Phillips and a prospect to Washington for one of their guys. Then, I'd feel pretty set with this team.

Realistically, what else is out there ?

Britt Burns
12-25-2006, 04:26 AM
I'd like to see church on the Sox although since KW and Ozzie love burners Logan would probably be the most likely of the three that we would go after. A Church or Logan/BA platoon in center wouldn't be half bad and it shouldn't cost a ton.

Grzegorz
12-25-2006, 05:23 AM
I'd like to see church on the Sox although since KW and Ozzie love burners Logan would probably be the most likely of the three that we would go after. A Church or Logan/BA platoon in center wouldn't be half bad and it shouldn't cost a ton.

Wait, we're talking about Nook Logan? I'd love to see his career OBP and his 2006 OBP. I'd bet his 2006 numbers are an abnormality seeing how Logan now seems to be the flavor of the month.

As for Ryan Church, can he play a better defensive CF than Brian Anderson? Wasn't Church inconsistent last year at the plate? Up one month and down another?

Assuming Church is acquired before the season starts does that mean that BA does not deserve an opportunity to compete for the CF job? If not, what do you do with BA? What do you do with Church if he start slowly? Do you let him work through the slump or bench him for BA/Sweeney/Terrero?

Scottiehaswheels
12-25-2006, 07:25 AM
Call it crazy but I could honestly see a package made for Baldelli and Kazmir made from what we have acquired recently... Kazmir taking the 5th starter spot of course...

ilsox7
12-25-2006, 07:37 AM
Call it crazy but I could honestly see a package made for Baldelli and Kazmir made from what we have acquired recently... Kazmir taking the 5th starter spot of course...

You're crazy. Why would the Devil Rays trade a 23 year old LHP who is cheap for years to come and posted great numbers last year?

Scottiehaswheels
12-25-2006, 07:38 AM
You're crazy. Why would the Devil Rays trade a 23 year old LHP who is cheap for years to come and posted great numbers last year?If they can get 3-4 arms, 2 being lefty, it has to be tempting....

ilsox7
12-25-2006, 07:42 AM
If they can get 3-4 arms, 2 being lefty, it has to be tempting....

The White Sox just got 3 arms (2 of which are considered plus arms) for a pitcher who has not come anywhere near doing what Kazmir has done. So you think the Devil Rays will pony-up Kazmir AND Baldelli for 3 or 4 arms?

Scottiehaswheels
12-25-2006, 07:46 AM
The White Sox just got 3 arms (2 of which are considered plus arms) for a pitcher who has not come anywhere near doing what Kazmir has done. So you think the Devil Rays will pony-up Kazmir AND Baldelli for 3 or 4 arms?Hey just speculating.... Its always a possibility... Besides... Kazmir had a bit of rotator cuff problems last year, could have spooked TB? Who knows... I know they shut him down for the year in August though so he should be ok for spring training...

ilsox7
12-25-2006, 07:52 AM
Hey just speculating.... Its always a possibility... Besides... Kazmir had a bit of rotator cuff problems last year, could have spooked TB? Who knows... I know they shut him down for the year in August though so he should be ok for spring training...

There's speculating and there is dreaming. If you were a GM and had an extremely young LHP who has had very good success in MLB, is now 100% healthy, and is dirt cheap, would you trade him AND a solid outfielder for a few prospects?

Put another way, if the Sox had a pitcher similar to Kazmir (which we do not), would you package him and, say, Sweeney for 4 AAA pitchers? People around here (not necessarily me) are having kniptions b/c KW traded McCarthy (who hasn't come close to Kazmir production) for 3 minor league arms. Kazmir is exactly what the Devil Rays need: great, young, cheap pitching. Baldelli is a possibility. Kazmir is not. If KW pulls off a deal for Kazmir without giving up a major leaguer, I'll buy you a case of beer.

CWSpalehoseCWS
12-25-2006, 09:33 AM
It says on rotoworld that Preston Wilson was offered a contract by an undisclosed AL team. Could be the Sox, since we're talking about OF's.

Sargeant79
12-25-2006, 09:40 AM
It says on rotoworld that Preston Wilson was offered a contract by an undisclosed AL team. Could be the Sox, since we're talking about OF's.

Not likely.

White Sox Randy
12-25-2006, 10:15 AM
At this point, I'd like to just add a decent OFer that can adequately play CF and contibute something offensively.

I don't want to trade Anderson because I still believe that he will become a good OFer.

We could add any of Washington's CFer's ( Alex Escobar, Ryan Church or Nook Logan) and I don't think it would cost us much and I would keep the OFers that we have.

I think the team would be pretty solid after that. I don't see the need at the moment to try to make a blockbuster deal for Rios, Baldelli or Crawford.

Let's see what we have with all of these pitchers that we've added. If we just add a decent young guy, as above, then we are not in a desperate situation and we have a lot of pitching depth and someone will comecalling us for talent. That's when you can make a good deal.

jabrch
12-25-2006, 10:17 AM
I don't see a CF as the next move. I see the next big move as either a big bat in LF who'd make Pods expendable or a high end SS.

ilsox7
12-25-2006, 10:26 AM
I don't see a CF as the next move. I see the next big move as either a big bat in LF who'd make Pods expendable or a high end SS.

I'd be curious to hear your speculation on this.

Brian26
12-25-2006, 10:39 AM
Call it crazy but I could honestly see a package made for Baldelli and Kazmir made from what we have acquired recently... Kazmir taking the 5th starter spot of course...

Insanity. You think you're going to get Kazmir from Tampa Bay? Not going to happen in a million years.

Brian26
12-25-2006, 10:41 AM
I'd like to see church on the Sox although since KW and Ozzie love burners Logan would probably be the most likely of the three that we would go after. A Church or Logan/BA platoon in center wouldn't be half bad and it shouldn't cost a ton.

Logan as in Nook Logan? He's the fastest guy I've ever seen, but he can't get on base to save his life. He'll be out of baseball soon. To think the Sox would replace BA with him is just ludicrous.

jabrch
12-25-2006, 10:42 AM
I'd be curious to hear your speculation on this.


I'm still thinking about all the big bat names we have heard so far this offseason, including Crawford, Baldelli, Manny, A-Rod, Tejada, etc...

ilsox7
12-25-2006, 10:43 AM
I'm still thinking about all the big bat names we have heard so far this offseason, including Crawford, Baldelli, Manny, A-Rod, Tejada, etc...

I'd say Baldelli is the most likely, but the Devil Rays need to bring their price down significantly.

Brian26
12-25-2006, 10:45 AM
I'm still thinking about all the big bat names we have heard so far this offseason, including Crawford, Baldelli, Manny, A-Rod, Tejada, etc...

I don't see a fit for any of those, especially now that Garcia and McCarthy are no longer trade bait options. I give the Baldelli rumor an outside shot, but at this point I have a feeling the lineup is pretty much set. Anderson has survived and won't be replaced unless Sweeney has an unbelievable spring training. Uribe will be the starting SS.

jabrch
12-25-2006, 11:04 AM
I don't see a fit for any of those, especially now that Garcia and McCarthy are no longer trade bait options.

As I see it, both of those franchises could use a front line starter prospect. We have 3 of the top 10 LH SP prospects (http://scout.scout.com/a.z?s=381&p=9&c=12&yr=2006&nid=287&lnid=287&rc=4&pid=49) in the minors. Boston only have 1 in the top 50. Baltimore has 1 in the top 75. Tampa has 2 ranked about 50.

Tampa has to find roster spots for Delmon Young, Crawford, Baldelli and BJ Upton. They have Elijah Dukes and Joel Guzman coming up soon. Danks, Gio, Phillips, etc. should interest them.

NY has been talked about a ton. A Crede + SP deal for A-Rod would work if the Yanks decide they want Rodriguez out. Manny is almost always available. I wouldn't be surprised to see him traded sometime this year.

I just don't think Kenny is done. He hardly ever is.

Tragg
12-25-2006, 11:25 AM
For being such a lousy team, Tampa seems to always have a bunch of players people want.
The last generation was Baez, Lugo and Huff....they acted like these slightly above average ballplayers were hall of fame candidates.

So now we have Rocky Baldelli - he has a lousy OBP and not much power. I realize most people on here have ZERO patience with young players (wanted Garland and Crede out) who in this case would be Anderson, but I gotta ask - how is he an upgrade?
And people suggest we send Anderson AND essentially McCarthy (e.g. 2 top pitching prospects) for this guy? LOL that's insane.

Flight #24
12-25-2006, 01:45 PM
As long as crap's being thrown against the wall, reportedly the DBacks & Spankees are discussing a Randy Johnson trade, with the Spanks not willing to send any cash in the deal. I can only imagine that that means he's going to cents on the dollar, so if Coop & Herm think they can wring a solid year out of him, that would be an option. Say a mid-low tier pitching prospect to the Spanks, RJ to the Sox to serve as the 5th starter and add a little "nasty" to the team. It's a 1-yr/$16M deal, so while it's expensive, it's short-term and I'd have to guess RJ is better than anything currently available in the event that Floyd/Danks/Broadway aren't ready and/or Buehrle doesn't rebound.

Kind of a kooky idea though. KW would have to be fairly certain that he could get solid performance out of him and that by managing his load, maybe even get a vintage performance or 2 down the stretch.

spiffie
12-25-2006, 01:57 PM
As long as crap's being thrown against the wall, reportedly the DBacks & Spankees are discussing a Randy Johnson trade, with the Spanks not willing to send any cash in the deal. I can only imagine that that means he's going to cents on the dollar, so if Coop & Herm think they can wring a solid year out of him, that would be an option. Say a mid-low tier pitching prospect to the Spanks, RJ to the Sox to serve as the 5th starter and add a little "nasty" to the team. It's a 1-yr/$16M deal, so while it's expensive, it's short-term and I'd have to guess RJ is better than anything currently available in the event that Floyd/Danks/Broadway aren't ready and/or Buehrle doesn't rebound.

Kind of a kooky idea though. KW would have to be fairly certain that he could get solid performance out of him and that by managing his load, maybe even get a vintage performance or 2 down the stretch.
As long as they wouldn't want anyone out of the Danks/Masset/Broadway/Gio/Sisco group, I could be good with that. Yeah it's expensive, but it's off the books in a single season, and since we all seem to think Coop can fix any pitcher and make them a stud, imagine what he could do with Randy Johnson. Hell, after Coop finishes with him he might never give up a run again!

ChiTownTrojan
12-25-2006, 02:12 PM
As long as crap's being thrown against the wall, reportedly the DBacks & Spankees are discussing a Randy Johnson trade, with the Spanks not willing to send any cash in the deal. I can only imagine that that means he's going to cents on the dollar, so if Coop & Herm think they can wring a solid year out of him, that would be an option. Say a mid-low tier pitching prospect to the Spanks, RJ to the Sox to serve as the 5th starter and add a little "nasty" to the team. It's a 1-yr/$16M deal, so while it's expensive, it's short-term and I'd have to guess RJ is better than anything currently available in the event that Floyd/Danks/Broadway aren't ready and/or Buehrle doesn't rebound.

Kind of a kooky idea though. KW would have to be fairly certain that he could get solid performance out of him and that by managing his load, maybe even get a vintage performance or 2 down the stretch.

If RJ gets traded, he'll go for much more than a mid-tier pitching prospect on reputation alone.

ChiTownTrojan
12-25-2006, 02:15 PM
I don't see a CF as the next move. I see the next big move as either a big bat in LF who'd make Pods expendable or a high end SS.

If we do that, who would lead off? Without a true leadoff hitter and with yet another (unnecessary) power bat in the lineup, it would be the 2000-2004 offense all over again. Unless there's another option for the leadoff spot, Pods is staying in LF.

jabrch
12-25-2006, 04:48 PM
If we do that, who would lead off? Without a true leadoff hitter and with yet another (unnecessary) power bat in the lineup, it would be the 2000-2004 offense all over again. Unless there's another option for the leadoff spot, Pods is staying in LF.

This team could be better off with Iguchi leading off and Manny or Crawford in LF or with Alex Rodriguez or Miguel Tejada at SS than we would be with Pods leading off.

I'm fine with Pods if that's the way we go, but if we don't, we can still field a very productive lineup if we replace him with a .300/.400/.500 type player.

ondafarm
12-25-2006, 06:50 PM
CFer, right ?

Realistically, what else is out there ?

Give it up. Brian Anderson will be the CFer for 2007.

ChiTownTrojan
12-25-2006, 07:24 PM
Give it up. Brian Anderson will be the CFer for 2007.
I agree, and I want him there. But he's not going to play every day, and I don't want Sweeny backing him up. We need someone else on the roster capable of playing CF.

soxtalker
12-25-2006, 07:27 PM
CFer, right ? Here's most likely where Kenny can deal:

Washington has Escobar, Church and Logan. Any of them would be a nice little inexpensive addition for the Sox.

Tampa Bay has Baldelli or Crawford but abviously this would be a big costly move that Kenny would have to outbid a number of teams for and cost the Sox a lot of depth - might be unwise at this point.

Other players I could see Kenny making a move for are Figgins or Endy Chavez.

Washington and Tampa Bay are desperate for pitching so I think that's where we'll deal.

I'd like to see us give up Phillips and a prospect to Washington for one of their guys. Then, I'd feel pretty set with this team.

Realistically, what else is out there ?

This is all speculation, but I think that a much more likely scenario is another trade of the variety that we just saw -- one of our remaining veteran starting pitchers gets dealt to another team for a bunch of high-level prospects (mostly pitchers). Now, KW can do anything, but he's been doing pretty much what he has been saying he was going to do. So, while I don't think he'll be shopping any of the remaining starters, he sure will be willing to be blown away by offers. It would make many around here nervous, but he seems to be very comfortable with the group of prospects that are close.

ChiTownTrojan
12-25-2006, 07:55 PM
This is all speculation, but I think that a much more likely scenario is another trade of the variety that we just saw -- one of our remaining veteran starting pitchers gets dealt to another team for a bunch of high-level prospects (mostly pitchers). Now, KW can do anything, but he's been doing pretty much what he has been saying he was going to do. So, while I don't think he'll be shopping any of the remaining starters, he sure will be willing to be blown away by offers. It would make many around here nervous, but he seems to be very comfortable with the group of prospects that are close.

Contrary to popular belief, KW is NOT giving up on 2007. If he trades another veteran starter for prospects, that's exactly what he'd be doing. One kid in the rotation is fine, but two would be disasterous. Unless he gets another starter back in the trade, I'm fairly sure that our current rotation is what we're going to see on openning day, with all the kids duking it out for the 5th spot (competition is definitely not a bad thing).

soxtalker
12-25-2006, 08:57 PM
Contrary to popular belief, KW is NOT giving up on 2007. If he trades another veteran starter for prospects, that's exactly what he'd be doing. One kid in the rotation is fine, but two would be disasterous. Unless he gets another starter back in the trade, I'm fairly sure that our current rotation is what we're going to see on openning day, with all the kids duking it out for the 5th spot (competition is definitely not a bad thing).

I didn't make the suggestion assuming that KW had given up. In fact, I don't think that he would make any trade that he thought would hurt our chances for 2007. Having said that, I still think that it is quite possible that he'll trade one of the remaining starters before the season begins. I just have the impression -- based largely on what he said after the McCarthy trade -- that Kenny thinks pretty highly of the group of near-term prospects he's assembled.

But, as I said, this is pure speculation.

ilsox7
12-25-2006, 09:00 PM
I didn't make the suggestion assuming that KW had given up. In fact, I don't think that he would make any trade that he thought would hurt our chances for 2007. Having said that, I still think that it is quite possible that he'll trade one of the remaining starters before the season begins. I just have the impression -- based largely on what he said after the McCarthy trade -- that Kenny thinks pretty highly of the group of near-term prospects he's assembled.

But, as I said, this is pure speculation.

Actually, KW said after he made the McCarthy trade that none of the other 4 starters were currently being shopped at all. Take it for what it's worth.

soxtalker
12-25-2006, 09:39 PM
Actually, KW said after he made the McCarthy trade that none of the other 4 starters were currently being shopped at all. Take it for what it's worth.

I'm not suggesting that he's shopping any of them; I don't think that he was shopping McCarthy either. As he stated, he was blown away by the Texas offer. I'm suggesting that he can be blown away again as the available free agents dwindle and teams get desperate. I don't think that's much of a stretch.

The part that may be a stretch is being able to fill the shoes of anyone else he trades. I forget the exact phrasing during the McCarthy press conference. But it was the way that he said that the earlier trades had made it possible to give up McCarthy. He's got more near-term prospects now, and I presume that any trade for another of our current starters could provide more.

Look, it wouldn't be popular on WSI. People here like proven major league players. But teams have won ahead of schedule with young pitchers -- Detroit this year and Florida come to mind. I could be wrong, but, given enough good young arms, I could see Kenny taking a chance.

ondafarm
12-25-2006, 09:48 PM
Having four veteran starting pitchers and one rookie making the most of his opportunity sounds like one heck of a rotation to me. Having one two or three guys waiting in the winds doesn't sound bad either. Seems to me that KW knows what his rotation will look like from now until 2010 and maybe beyond. I think that marks him as one of the smartest GMs in baseball.

ilsox7
12-25-2006, 09:52 PM
I'm not suggesting that he's shopping any of them; I don't think that he was shopping McCarthy either. As he stated, he was blown away by the Texas offer. I'm suggesting that he can be blown away again as the available free agents dwindle and teams get desperate. I don't think that's much of a stretch.

The part that may be a stretch is being able to fill the shoes of anyone else he trades. I forget the exact phrasing during the McCarthy press conference. But it was the way that he said that the earlier trades had made it possible to give up McCarthy. He's got more near-term prospects now, and I presume that any trade for another of our current starters could provide more.

Look, it wouldn't be popular on WSI. People here like proven major league players. But teams have won ahead of schedule with young pitchers -- Detroit this year and Florida come to mind. I could be wrong, but, given enough good young arms, I could see Kenny taking a chance.

Agreed. However I think the definition of what blows him away went up quite a bit after this last trade.

Jjav829
12-25-2006, 10:24 PM
Call it crazy but I could honestly see a package made for Baldelli and Kazmir made from what we have acquired recently... Kazmir taking the 5th starter spot of course...

I just like how you followed up the crazy notion that we could acquire Kazmir by saying he'd be our 5th starter. Kazmir would be our #1. Doesn't matter, though, as he isn't going anywhere.

Next move? I say a 4th outfielder. Trading Gload opened up that bench spot for a 4th outfielder who can play center. The Sox might think Terrero can handle that spot, but I would expect at least a bit of competition brought in. I really don't see a big move coming. I know some people think Kenny is stockpiling arms to make another move, but I don't see it. I think what we're seeing is what we're gonna get. Now if Kenny finds out Dontrelle is available (a pitcher who KW has seemingly coveted for a while) then maybe that sways him to trade some of that young pitching, but otherwise, I don't see another move coming. I don't think KW's goal was to stockpile all these arms to trade them for an outfielder.

Jjav829
12-25-2006, 10:29 PM
For being such a lousy team, Tampa seems to always have a bunch of players people want.
The last generation was Baez, Lugo and Huff....they acted like these slightly above average ballplayers were hall of fame candidates.

So now we have Rocky Baldelli - he has a lousy OBP and not much power. I realize most people on here have ZERO patience with young players (wanted Garland and Crede out) who in this case would be Anderson, but I gotta ask - how is he an upgrade?
And people suggest we send Anderson AND essentially McCarthy (e.g. 2 top pitching prospects) for this guy? LOL that's insane.

Come on, you know that's BS. Just because the team is bad that automatically makes their players bad?

The truth is that Tampa has about as much good, young talent as any team in the game. Unfortunately, sans Kazmir (and Shields to an extent), all of that talent is on the offensive side. Using the team's success, or lackthereof, to measure a player's value is horrible reasoning. If that was at all true, then we should be trying to sign the likes of Jeff Weaver or Preston Wilson. They played for a World Series champion, so by the logic you're using, they're all great players, right?

UserNameBlank
12-25-2006, 10:44 PM
Now if Kenny finds out Dontrelle is available (a pitcher who KW has seemingly coveted for a while) then maybe that sways him to trade some of that young pitching, but otherwise, I don't see another move coming. I don't think KW's goal was to stockpile all these arms to trade them for an outfielder.

100% agreed. KW has reportedly been high on Danks (no pun intended) for quite some time now. He also really loved Gio obviously.

If KW were only set on getting a bunch of trade bait I think his trades would reflect that, especially the Garcia trade. Most people here at the time thought KW could have gotten more, and considering what the Astros gave up for Jennings, that might be true. However, KW really, really likes Gio and obviously thinks he might be able to do something with Floyd. If KW just wanted to stockpile trading chips I think we'd have gotten sexier names than Gio and Floyd.

jabrch
12-25-2006, 10:45 PM
Having four veteran starting pitchers and one rookie making the most of his opportunity sounds like one heck of a rotation to me. Having one two or three guys waiting in the winds doesn't sound bad either. Seems to me that KW knows what his rotation will look like from now until 2010 and maybe beyond. I think that marks him as one of the smartest GMs in baseball.

At least he has a plan that keeps this team a contender every year, and can do so within the current payroll (adjusted to inflation and with upside as it exists) constraints. Nobody knows how that plan will work out, but heck - it sure looks good.

Think about it - with Danks and Gio, we have 2 of the top 3 ranked LH SP prospects in minor league baseball. Phillips and Liotta are somewhere in the top 20 LH SP ranks. Floyd, Sisco, Aardsma, Masset along with Broadway and McCullough. That's a strong pitching farm system. When teams are paying 10mm for mediocre SPs, we will have the chance to bring them up from the farm in waves - or trade them for other things we need.

Buehrle very well may get offered 5/75. Frankly, as much as I like Mark, I'm not sure I'd pay that for him. Garland, if he has 2 more good years would be in line for a big payday.

Kenny is in a position where he may not be held hostage by guys who have every right to seek out a gigantic payday and still has a team that will be a contender to win their division again this year.

Genius? No. Good GM? Absolutely.

UserNameBlank
12-25-2006, 10:48 PM
I'm not suggesting that he's shopping any of them; I don't think that he was shopping McCarthy either. As he stated, he was blown away by the Texas offer. I'm suggesting that he can be blown away again as the available free agents dwindle and teams get desperate. I don't think that's much of a stretch.

The part that may be a stretch is being able to fill the shoes of anyone else he trades. I forget the exact phrasing during the McCarthy press conference. But it was the way that he said that the earlier trades had made it possible to give up McCarthy. He's got more near-term prospects now, and I presume that any trade for another of our current starters could provide more.

Look, it wouldn't be popular on WSI. People here like proven major league players. But teams have won ahead of schedule with young pitchers -- Detroit this year and Florida come to mind. I could be wrong, but, given enough good young arms, I could see Kenny taking a chance.

I agree with all of this. I think that if KW gets an offer too good to pass up he will not pass it up, and as long as he is making a move that doesn't hurt us too badly right now yet helps us a ton in the future, I will applaud him for it.

Besides, if another starter goes and it leads to extensions for Dye, Crede, and Tadahito I'd be thrilled.

ChiTownTrojan
12-25-2006, 10:57 PM
100% agreed. KW has reportedly been high on Danks (no pun intended) for quite some time now. He also really loved Gio obviously.

If KW were only set on getting a bunch of trade bait I think his trades would reflect that, especially the Garcia trade. Most people here at the time thought KW could have gotten more, and considering what the Astros gave up for Jennings, that might be true. However, KW really, really likes Gio and obviously thinks he might be able to do something with Floyd. If KW just wanted to stockpile trading chips I think we'd have gotten sexier names than Gio and Floyd.

And why would we trust KW in his assessment of young pitching? Has he ever been right about this sort of thing before?

Actually, I can't think of many examples of Kenny being wrong when he picks up pitching. Vazquez comes to mind, but he's shown the ability to dominate at times and if he ever gets his head on straight, he could be one of our best pitchers.

Tragg
12-25-2006, 10:59 PM
Come on, you know that's BS. Just because the team is bad that automatically makes their players bad?

The truth is that Tampa has about as much good, young talent as any team in the game. Sure there's a touch of demagogurey in my post. But the fact remains that we heard the same silly stuff about slightly above average ballplayers named Huff and Baez.

And how is Baldelli top young talent? 15 homers and an OPB in the 330s. And that is settled over several years. That's not top talent - that's the "grass is always greener" effect. 15 homers and a 330 OBP is mediocrity and if he were on the Sox he'd be labelled such.

ChiTownTrojan
12-25-2006, 11:01 PM
Agreed. However I think the definition of what blows him away went up quite a bit after this last trade.

"Blown away" would have to include us receiving a veteran starter back in the trade. Going into the season with one rookie in there is one thing, but it would be asking too much for two or more rookies to succeed next year. Not to mention that if Contreras goes down for any length of time, we'd really be screwed. I really don't see that type of trade happening, so I think the point is moot.

Jjav829
12-25-2006, 11:05 PM
How is Baldelli top young talent? 15 homers and an OPB in the 330s. And that is settled over several years.
That's not top talent - that's the "grass is always greener" effect.

You said "several players," not simply Baldelli. Your argument is still BS. Tampa's success as a team means nothing when analyzing Baldelli or any other young player on the Devil Rays.

soxtalker
12-26-2006, 06:59 AM
"Blown away" would have to include us receiving a veteran starter back in the trade. Going into the season with one rookie in there is one thing, but it would be asking too much for two or more rookies to succeed next year. Not to mention that if Contreras goes down for any length of time, we'd really be screwed. I really don't see that type of trade happening, so I think the point is moot.

Well, maybe you're right. But let me point out that this was the general sentiment on WSI before the Garcia and McCarthy trades. Now, I'm not suggesting that KW is going to trade off the entire veteran pitching staff before the start of the season. But I suspect that he could live with just three veterans -- if he gets the right combination of prospects in return.

SOXSINCE'70
12-26-2006, 08:11 AM
It says on rotoworld that Preston Wilson was offered a contract by an undisclosed AL team. Could be the Sox, since we're talking about OF's.

:kukoo:
"Noooooooooo!!!!"

Craig Grebeck
12-26-2006, 08:51 AM
Sure there's a touch of demagogurey in my post. But the fact remains that we heard the same silly stuff about slightly above average ballplayers named Huff and Baez.

And how is Baldelli top young talent? 15 homers and an OPB in the 330s. And that is settled over several years. That's not top talent - that's the "grass is always greener" effect. 15 homers and a 330 OBP is mediocrity and if he were on the Sox he'd be labelled such.
Baldelli had an .872 OPS this season. It was highly SLG driven, but it's likely that he'll continue to put up an .850 to .900 OPS through his prime (which he isn't even close to).

Scottiehaswheels
12-26-2006, 08:56 AM
I just like how you followed up the crazy notion that we could acquire Kazmir by saying he'd be our 5th starter. Kazmir would be our #1.
Sorry, I didn't mean that as he would be in the 5th slot.. I just meant that he would round out our rotation as our 5th starter...

southside rocks
12-26-2006, 09:24 AM
CFer, right ? Here's most likely where Kenny can deal:

Washington has Escobar, Church and Logan. Any of them would be a nice little inexpensive addition for the Sox.

Tampa Bay has Baldelli or Crawford but abviously this would be a big costly move that Kenny would have to outbid a number of teams for and cost the Sox a lot of depth - might be unwise at this point.

Other players I could see Kenny making a move for are Figgins or Endy Chavez.

Washington and Tampa Bay are desperate for pitching so I think that's where we'll deal.

I'd like to see us give up Phillips and a prospect to Washington for one of their guys. Then, I'd feel pretty set with this team.

Realistically, what else is out there ?

Has anyone on this board accurately predicted even one of KW's moves so far in this off-season?

If they did, I missed it.

maurice
12-26-2006, 01:00 PM
I agree that Baldelli is absurdly overrated (not because of lack of talent, but rather because of lack of health), but there are 2 very good reasons that the DRays have lots of young, desirable players: (1) they always suck and don't sign top-tier free agents, so they have lots of high draft picks, and (2) they routinely trade veterans for prospects.

thomas35forever
12-26-2006, 01:05 PM
I agree that Baldelli is absurdly overrated (not because of lack of talent, but rather because of lack of health), but there are 2 very good reasons that the DRays have lots of young, desirable players: (1) they always suck and don't sign top-tier free agents, so they have lots of high draft picks, and (2) they routinely trade veterans for prospects.
How would Baldelli do as a leadoff hitter?

maurice
12-26-2006, 02:23 PM
How would Baldelli do as a leadoff hitter?

Impossible to say with any degree of certainty. He's talented enough to get on base and steal some bags . . . or maybe he posts a .330 OBP . . . or maybe he spends the entire year on the DL.

SouthSide_HitMen
12-26-2006, 02:48 PM
There's speculating and there is dreaming. If you were a GM and had an extremely young LHP who has had very good success in MLB, is now 100% healthy, and is dirt cheap, would you trade him AND a solid outfielder for a few prospects?

Insanity. You think you're going to get Kazmir from Tampa Bay? Not going to happen in a million years.

Ilsox7 & Brian26, meet Jim Duquette.

(SSHM, a lifelong Mets fan, is still :angry: over this (http://digamma.net/btfwiki/index.php/The_Kazmir_Trade) deal).

As far as possible Kenny Williams deals to fill the CF, LF or SS positions or for a veteran 5th starter, I will cede the fact that I am a mere mortal and cannot physically see, let alone contemplate the ninja like quickness of Kenny Williams' thoughts and actions. A Kenny Williams trade cannot be captured by photograph as humans have not developed film which can capture the swiftness of Kenny Williams. We can only await details after a deal is completed and then stand in owe of the wonders of Kenny Williams. :D:

Dreamer (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-1auRCameVY).

ilsox7
12-26-2006, 02:54 PM
Ilsox7 & Brian26, meet Jim Duquette.

(SSHM, a lifelong Mets fan, is still :angry: over this (http://digamma.net/btfwiki/index.php/The_Kazmir_Trade) deal).

As far as possible Kenny Williams deals to fill the CF, LF or SS positions or for a veteran 5th starter, I will cede the fact that I am a mere mortal and cannot physically see, let alone contemplate the ninja like quickness of Kenny Williams' thoughts and actions. A Kenny Williams trade cannot be captured by photograph as humans have not developed film which can capture the swiftness of Kenny Williams. We can only await details after a deal is completed and then stand in owe of the wonders of Kenny Williams. :D:

Dreamer (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-1auRCameVY).

Nice! At least when the Mets traded him, there was no actual evidence he'd dominate MLB. Since that trade, he has showed he is basically a #1 starter, even though he had some inflamed rotator cuff problems last year that the Devil Rays were rightfully very conservative with. Kazmir's value has increased quite a bit since he was incredulously traded back then.

SouthSide_HitMen
12-26-2006, 03:38 PM
Nice! At least when the Mets traded him, there was no actual evidence he'd dominate MLB. Since that trade, he has showed he is basically a #1 starter, even though he had some inflamed rotator cuff problems last year that the Devil Rays were rightfully very conservative with. Kazmir's value has increased quite a bit since he was incredulously traded back then.

Oh I agree. Tampa's new management is better than the prior regime, IMO. They still have the unenviable task of beating the Yankees and Red Sox but I think their young nucleus will give them a good chance of finishing above .500 for the first time in club history (70 wins (2004) is the most in club history :o: ).

As far as Kazmir going here or elsewhere, it is doubtful until he becomes a free agent.

White Sox fans should consider what Mets fans had to go through just a few years ago before ranting about Kenny Williams.

Jim Duquette

7/30/04: Acquired RHP Victor Zambrano (http://www.baseball-reference.com/z/zambrvi01.shtml) and RHP Bartolome Fortunato from Tampa Bay in exchange for LHP Scott Kazmir (http://www.baseball-reference.com/k/kazmisc01.shtml) and RHP Jose Diaz. :angry: :angry:

12/13/03: Signed SS Kazuo Matsui (http://www.baseball-reference.com/m/matsuka01.shtml) to a three-year, $20 million contract.

Steve Phillips

12/21/02: Signed 30 year old OF Cliff Floyd (http://www.baseball-reference.com/f/floydcl01.shtml) to a four-year, $26.3 million contract.

7/20/02: Acquired RHP Steve Reed (http://www.baseball-reference.com/r/reedst01.shtml) and Jason Middlebrook from San Diego in exchange for LHP Bobby Jones, minor league RHP Josh Reynolds and minor league OF Jason Bay (http://www.baseball-reference.com/b/bayja01.shtml). :angry: :angry:

12/27/01: Acquired 34 year old 1B Mo Vaughn (http://www.baseball-reference.com/v/vaughmo01.shtml) (he of the missed 2001 season and $46.5 million three year contract) and cash from the Angels for P Kevin Appier (http://www.baseball-reference.com/a/appieke01.shtml) who helped Anaheim win the World Series.

7/28/00: Acquired 34 year old reserve OF Mike Bordick (http://www.baseball-reference.com/b/bordimi01.shtml) for Lesli Brea, Mike Kinkade and Melvin Mora (http://www.baseball-reference.com/m/morame01.shtml).

rowand33
12-26-2006, 07:45 PM
It says on rotoworld that Preston Wilson was offered a contract by an undisclosed AL team. Could be the Sox, since we're talking about OF's.

:kukoo:
"Noooooooooo!!!!"

I'll gladly take him as a 4th outfielder. He can play the corners and center, has some pop, could steal a base, and could be valuable in case of injury.

I think he's at the point in his career where backing up a contender may be better than starting for a team like KC or the Nats. Also, I wonder if he'd even be able to get a job as a starter.

I'd bet he'd be one hell of a backup.

Iguana775
12-26-2006, 09:37 PM
Insanity. You think you're going to get Kazmir from Tampa Bay? Not going to happen in a million years.

So you say theres a chance......the day after a million year, I'm going to be checking the wire for the Sox aquiring Kaz.

Lillian
12-27-2006, 04:32 AM
It seems more likely that K.W. has accomplished as much of what he wanted to, as the current market affords. There may be a free agent acquisition, but I suspect the trades are finished.

He wanted to stockpile young pitching talent, and he has certainly done that.

He wanted to preserve the nucleus of the starting staff, in order to make another run in 07, and he has done that. Of course, who knows if they are up to the challenge. Apparently, he and Cooper feel that they are.

He wanted to strengthen the bullpen, and he has probably exceeded even his own expectations in that regard.

He wanted to acquire a backup CF'er to challenge Brian, and Terrero has the potential to do that.

He wanted to acquire a leadoff guy, but resigning Pods seemed like the best option, given the market.

He wanted to acquire a back up catcher, and Toby Hall will fill that need very nicely.

As far as filling any other holes, I think that the organization feels comfortable with its current assets. Many here are still hoping for an upgrade or backup for Pods in Left. When you consider that our two best position prospects can both play Left, it would seem like an acquisition would not be a high priority. Sweeney and Fields could both fill that need, although of course, neither is a lead off hitter. Ozuna could be that guy, if they get really desperate. Terrero also adds depth there, although his primary role will be to back up Brian.

I think that the one big question mark is SS. Uribe has become a bit of an enigma. His development has really been stunted for some reason, most likely mental. After the 2004 season, at age 25, I thought that he might emerge as an elite shortstop. At times he carried the team, and his numbers that year were very impressive: .283 avg, 31 doubles, 6 triples, 23 homers, and 74 RBI's. The way he played defensively, and with that arm, I thought that he was going to be a star. Except for his defensive improvement in 2005, he has pretty much retrogressed since then. Now with this shooting incident, which I just read is still not completely resolved, it appears that his future is uncertain.
The organization has no outstanding young SS in the pipeline. Robert Valido was thought to be that guy, but his star has really fallen. Cintron is an adequate back up for now, but I would really like to see the Sox acquire a candidate for the future. I do note that there are about three short stops projected to go between the 24th and 27th pick in the 2007 draft, and that the Sox currently hold the 25th pick. The odds look pretty good that their first pick this year will be a SS. I don't know anything about any of the players, and two of them are high school kids. There is a college player from Rutgers named Todd Frazier. There is quite a bit of information on the Net about him, but I haven't read any of it yet. Could be interesting.

barney27
12-27-2006, 07:25 AM
What about Ryan Freel? He is a good leadoff hitter, and plays almost every position on the field. Could be good insurance if Uribe can't come back also.

barney27
12-27-2006, 07:35 AM
I agree that Baldelli is absurdly overrated (not because of lack of talent, but rather because of lack of health), but there are 2 very good reasons that the DRays have lots of young, desirable players: (1) they always suck and don't sign top-tier free agents, so they have lots of high draft picks, and (2) they routinely trade veterans for prospects.
He maybe overrated as far as what tampa wants in return for a guy with health issues, but Baldelli if healthy would be one of the best CFers in baseball. 300 plus batting average, 30 plus steals, 25 plus HRs, and good D to boot. Granted he isn't Vernon Wells, but would be a better option then most in CF. Everything relies on his health.

TheVulture
12-27-2006, 02:13 PM
100% agreed. KW has reportedly been high on Dank for quite some time now.

That's what I was thinking after the McCarthy trade.

Tragg
12-27-2006, 03:00 PM
He maybe overrated as far as what tampa wants in return for a guy with health issues, but Baldelli if healthy would be one of the best CFers in baseball. 300 plus batting average, 30 plus steals, 25 plus HRs, and good D to boot. Granted he isn't Vernon Wells, but would be a better option then most in CF. Everything relies on his health.
Where do yall get this?
In 3 seasons, he's never had more than 16 homers....suddenly he's good for 25+?
His steals numbers are 27, 17 and 10 --->going down.
His walk rate is less than 5%, which is absolutely terrible (low walk rates fit well on this team, I know, but I was hoping we'd change that) - that offsets his high BA, such that his OBP is mediocre.

I ask where yall get this sincerely because by the numbers because so many of yall talk like he's some elite player.
What he looks like to me is an Aaron Rowand