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bigredrudy
12-22-2006, 07:23 PM
There seems to be some possibility that the Sox will trade another starter. Do you think the Sox will do this? I m beginning to believe that this will happen. I welcome your input

JermaineDye05
12-22-2006, 07:26 PM
well first I have to say, what's the score?

Second, in my opinion I'm neutral on the idea of trading another one of our starters, if Kenny get's more young/good pitchers in return it's good but I'm also fine with the 5 starters we have right now. I think it's basically a win-win situation.

QCIASOXFAN
12-22-2006, 07:30 PM
Yes, I heard we are trading Buerhle to the Cardinals for So Taguchi.:unsure:

areilly
12-22-2006, 07:37 PM
Yes, I heard we are trading Buerhle to the Cardinals for So Taguchi.:unsure:

Buerhle for the Speez, straight up. Everyone wins.

DMarte708
12-22-2006, 07:41 PM
well first I have to say, what's the score?

Second, in my opinion I'm neutral on the idea of trading another one of our starters, if Kenny get's more young/good pitchers in return it's good but I'm also fine with the 5 starters we have right now. I think it's basically a win-win situation.
I essentially agree with the win-win philosophy; albeit with the emphasis on a good return for any departing starter.

What happened with Garcia won't be acceptable again in my eyes. Say what you want about the potential of Floyd/Gonzalez, but it was a move designed to shed salary as much as it was to improve our pitching staff down the road.

If any of the current starters (aside from McCarthy) are delt, I don't want money to be an issue. If eating Buehrle's entire salary, or a sizable portion of Garland/Vazquez's 07 salary, lends us the best available package, then so be it. You can't reasonably trade any remaining starters unless the return value is an absolute can't miss. By this, you need more than the Gavid Floyd's and Giovanni Gonzalez's of the world. Williams need a package similar to, or an excess to, what Colorado received for Jennings.

jabrch
12-22-2006, 08:35 PM
Say what you want about the potential of Floyd/Gonzalez, but it was a move designed to shed salary as much as it was to improve our pitching staff down the road.

That's ridiculous. It was a move to trade a guy who was entering his walk year to get two legitimate SP prospects for him while we have a guy who we expect to perform similarly this year who we needed to make a spot for.

Williams need a package similar to, or an excess to, what Colorado received for Jennings.

He did get a package very similar. Hirsch is slightly better than Gio. Floyd is better than Bucholz. Taveras is a 4th OF of very little true value. It all depends on which of those guys you like. Since Houston wanted Garland for that package, not Freddy, KW did the right thing.

veeter
12-22-2006, 08:43 PM
I say we extend Buerhle and Garland. Then let Javy's and Jose's contracts end. If anything can be received for those two, in a trade, even better. By that time the rotation could be: Buerhle, Garland, McCarthy, and Broadway. The fifth spot filled by either: McCullogh, Floyd, Gio, or Haeger.

jabrch
12-22-2006, 08:47 PM
Then let Javy's and Jose's contracts end.

Both have one more year after this - right? I highly doubt KW lets both walk for nothing. I'm sure that next offseason we will look to do the same thing we just did with Freddy.

veeter
12-22-2006, 08:55 PM
Both have one more year after this - right? I highly doubt KW lets both walk for nothing. I'm sure that next offseason we will look to do the same thing we just did with Freddy.I was just thinking to get the most out of them, but you're right. That's probably what KW will do. Really, to get the most out of a trade, it needs to be made at the July deadline. But the Sox can't do that because THEY are always contending. I really like Jose, but not at the expense of losing Garland or MB. Javy, I haven't warmed up to yet.

Ol' No. 2
12-22-2006, 09:03 PM
:deadhorse:

It's dead already. Stop.

veeter
12-22-2006, 09:12 PM
I can't because I'm so freakin' bored.

Ol' No. 2
12-22-2006, 09:16 PM
I can't because I'm so freakin' bored.Santa's coming in two more nights! Aren't you excited?

veeter
12-22-2006, 09:20 PM
Santa's coming in two more nights! Aren't you excited?Christmas is great. My kids make it even more fun. But I'm just jones-ing(sp?) for some baseball. But hey, the days have just started to get longer. I think we had one more minute of sun light today!!!!

DMarte708
12-22-2006, 09:32 PM
That's ridiculous. It was a move to trade a guy who was entering his walk year to get two legitimate SP prospects for him while we have a guy who we expect to perform similarly this year who we needed to make a spot for.

Who still considers Floyd a prospect? If him and Gonzalez is what we received for Garcia having Philadelphia pay his ENTIRE 07' salary, what would the package had been if our organization paid the 8 million? This is essentially what I'm arguing about. Had Williams even paid a portion, perhaps Floyd could have been replaced with Fabio Castro.

He did get a package very similar. Hirsch is slightly better than Gio. Floyd is better than Bucholz. Taveras is a 4th OF of very little true value. First off, the packages aren't similar. I believe most with knowledge of watching Hirsch pitch would conlcude he's better than Gonzalez. One advantage to Hirsh is he could pitch in the majors right now. Could you confidentally say that about Gonzalez?

I'll give you Floyd is better than Bucholz, but only becaues Bucholz has sustained injury and is currently a reliever. About Tavarez, he may be a 4th OF, but he's a major league player. Would have been a valuable asset on our team. Now, compare that to the third person we received in the Garcia deal.................... So as it is, Tavarez > nothing.

It all depends on which of those guys you like. Since Houston wanted Garland for that package, not Freddy, KW did the right thing. Williams did the right thing trading Garcia, he just didn't receive the right package. It's not a steal for Gilleck; more fair value. Problem I had is this offseason, with the outrageous prices pitchers were demanding, I expected more in return for Garcia. Another pitcher with one year on his contract, Jennings, received more on par with what I expected for one of our starters.

As I stated earlier, the 8 million dollars that Philadelphia is paying of Garcia's salary likely limited the players we could receive. IF Williams should happen to keep remaining starters, fine. IF Williams should happen to trade a starter, a significantly better package than what we received for GArcia should be brought our way. Money, as I believe influenced our package for Freddy, should not be the issue.

fquaye149
12-22-2006, 09:35 PM
Who still considers Floyd a prospect?

most people who follow baseball

DMarte708
12-22-2006, 09:45 PM
most people who follow baseball
I suppose since 'most people who follow baseball' consider him a prospect, Baseball America should have Floyd's name within their Top Prospects list. As should Baseball Prospectus and Hardball Times.

Right?

fquaye149
12-22-2006, 09:57 PM
I suppose since 'most people who follow baseball' consider him a prospect, Baseball America should have Floyd's name within their Top Prospects list. As should Baseball Prospectus and Hardball Times.

Right?

Well there's a difference between a minor league prospect and a prospect

Technically Floyd doesn't qualify as being a minor league prospect given the time he's logged in the majors, but most people who are familiar with the way the development of young pitchers work would still consider him a prospect insofar as his #'s aren't really indicative of what he's capable of.

The kid's not quite 24 yet. He's still traded for based on potential...he's still in the developmental stages of his career.

So yes, although he doesn't qualify as a minor league prospect, he's still a prospect.

DumpJerry
12-22-2006, 11:28 PM
Bigred:

1. See the final line of my sig.

2. Do you ever post during the actual baseball season? It seems like you're constantly starting a different version of "the Sox will trade a stud" thread every other day without any substance to your initial post, but never provide us with analysis of actual White Sox goings on, espcially duiring the season when they actually play games.

Just wonderin'....

Hitmen77
12-22-2006, 11:49 PM
I say we extend Buerhle and Garland. Then let Javy's and Jose's contracts end. If anything can be received for those two, in a trade, even better. By that time the rotation could be: Buerhle, Garland, McCarthy, and Broadway. The fifth spot filled by either: McCullogh, Floyd, Gio, or Haeger.

Both have one more year after this - right? I highly doubt KW lets both walk for nothing. I'm sure that next offseason we will look to do the same thing we just did with Freddy.

Jose's contract runs through 2009.

http://mlbcontracts.blogspot.com/2005/01/chicago-white-sox.html

Interestingly, according to this site, Vazquez's contract ends after '07, but he "after demanding trade 11/05, under right as player traded in middle of a multi-year contract (forfeited right to file for free agency again until after 2008 season)"

So, what happens to him after 2007? Does he just become arbitration eligible for 2008?

TheOldRoman
12-23-2006, 12:03 AM
So, what happens to him after 2007? Does he just become arbitration eligible for 2008?
Yep

jabrch
12-23-2006, 12:04 AM
Who still considers Floyd a prospect? If him and Gonzalez is what we received for Garcia having Philadelphia pay his ENTIRE 07' salary, what would the package had been if our organization paid the 8 million? This is essentially what I'm arguing about. Had Williams even paid a portion, perhaps Floyd could have been replaced with Fabio Castro.

That's ridiculous. Why would we want to pay Freddy to pitch elsewhere? We didn't need to - and we got two prospects.

First off, the packages aren't similar. I believe most with knowledge of watching Hirsch pitch would conlcude he's better than Gonzalez.

Those who have seen Gio pitch are impressed by him too. Both are solid prospects.

One advantage to Hirsh is he could pitch in the majors right now. Could you confidentally say that about Gonzalez?

If we were looking at him to pitch in the majors right now, we'd have stayed with Freddy. The deal we made was to build the bullpen for this year (which Floyd does) and set up the rotation in the future (which Floyd and Gio do)

I'll give you Floyd is better than Bucholz, but only becaues Bucholz has sustained injury and is currently a reliever.

Bucholz is probably never going to be anything even remotely decent.

About Tavarez, he may be a 4th OF, but he's a major league player. Would have been a valuable asset on our team. Now, compare that to the third person we received in the Garcia deal.................... So as it is, Tavarez > nothing.

I would rather have the guys we have already in the OF over Taveras. Wouldn't you? To me, Taveras is worth nearly nothing to this club. I don't think he makes up for the difference between Floyd and Bucholz.

Another pitcher with one year on his contract, Jennings, received more on par with what I expected for one of our starters.

Then I think you overestimate what they got, or underestimate what we got. There's really no significant difference in the two deals.

Money, as I believe influenced our package for Freddy, should not be the issue.

But there is no reason for us to have wasted money to pay Freddy to pitch elsewhere. We will use that money to build our club, not to support someone else. I'd have been pissed if we sent Freddy and money for a package of prospects. That would have been completely foolish. Now if Carl Crawford were available, and we would have to pay Freddy's salary, that's a different story. but that's not the option. Just to upgrade to better prospects? That would be squandering both Freddy and Money for no reason.

jabrch
12-23-2006, 12:08 AM
I suppose since 'most people who follow baseball' consider him a prospect, Baseball America should have Floyd's name within their Top Prospects list. As should Baseball Prospectus and Hardball Times.

Right?

Those sites rank minor league prospects. I doubt Floyd or Bucholz would show up. Johan Santana wouldn't have showed up in 2003. Nor would Randy Johnson in 89. Curt Schilling in 1991...etc.

Do you not think that Gavin Floyd is a SP prospect?

Tragg
12-23-2006, 07:59 AM
He did get a package very similar. Hirsch is slightly better than Gio. Floyd is better than Bucholz. Taveras is a 4th OF of very little true value. It all depends on which of those guys you like. Since Houston wanted Garland for that package, not Freddy, KW did the right thing.
Similar IF you exclude Taveras
Hirsch was the Astros #1 prospect.
Floyd is similar to Bucholz - perhaps better, but it's hard to tell.
And then throw in the Astros starting center fielder, who isn't my cup of tea, but has speed, can cover ground and is young.
I'm not sure they'd have given that for Garcia, however.
The Sox never take prospects in return for picking up more salary...usually, we work the opposite - take less talent in return for the other team taking on salary. So such hopes that Williams would change the approach are unrealistic.
What is Williams going to do with the Garcia savings, however.

jabrch
12-23-2006, 09:58 AM
Similar IF you exclude Taveras

Agreed - I just don't put too much value on him. He's no better than guys we have on the farm, just more expensive as he enters his 4th season. He's not a good hitter and not a great defender. He's no better than Mackowiak at anything except playing CF defensively.

I'm not sure they'd have given that for Garcia, however.

They wouldn't. They wanted Garland for that package. And since JG has one extra year under contract, there was no way KW would do that.

So such hopes that Williams would change the approach are unrealistic.

And I agree with KW. That's a bad policy. Unless you absolutely don't want the player and need to get rid of him, why spend money to have him play elsewhere to buy other team's prospects? KW would rather, as he said the other day, just post a starter and sell him for cash rather than trade for him, given the price paid for Matsuzaka, Igawa, etc. He's not (and rightfully so) going to pay Garcia to pitch elsewhere just to step up the package he gets.

What is Williams going to do with the Garcia savings, however.

I too am curious. I'm sure there is a plan that will become obvious to us eventually. We just don't know what it is yet. It's entirely possible he's working on upgrading LF or CF still. It is possible he's going to use it to lock down Dye. He might be saving it for an Ichiro deal? Who knows?

White Sox Randy
12-23-2006, 11:12 AM
If they trade for another starter, I'd like to see them trade for a "can't miss" propspect.

The Sox don't have any of those anywhere in their system at any position. No, Gio is not an elite prospect.

Sickels just came out with his list and the Sox don't have any A rated prospects, no A- rated prospects and not even one B+ rated prospect.

Sweeney, Gio and Fields all rated B. They might be good, but doubtful they'll be great.

Floyd is likely to be nothing much. If Gio doesn't come thru pretty big, then what did we get for Garcia ?

If you're going trade another starter, they should get an elite prospect, even if he's not a pitcher.

WizardsofOzzie
12-23-2006, 11:13 AM
Bigred:

1. See the final line of my sig.

2. Do you ever post during the actual baseball season? It seems like you're constantly starting a different version of "the Sox will trade a stud" thread every other day without any substance to your initial post, but never provide us with analysis of actual White Sox goings on, espcially duiring the season when they actually play games.

Just wonderin'....

There is actually a good reason for that. He was banned in July for the rest of the season for trolling.
http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=1217540&postcount=18

Unfortunately he decided to return :(:

spiffie
12-23-2006, 02:42 PM
There seems to be some possibility that the Sox will trade another starter. Do you think the Sox will do this? I m beginning to believe that this will happen. I welcome your input
Well, I guess he did know what he was talking about.