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Zednem700
03-09-2002, 11:00 AM
My reasoning is this, Kenny Williams does not look like a good general manager. He seems to like veterans for their "veteranness" and I can really see him trading away the team's future for guys who are or are soon going to be worthless. For that reason I almost hope he pulls off a few stupid trades that kill this season. He would then hopefully get canned, and be replaced.

In my dreams the man who replaces him is Paul De Podesta. He's an assistant GM for Oakland, has received incredible reviews from everyone who's worked with him, has studied at the feet of Billy Beane, the best GM in the game, he knows how to analyze stats AND scout players, and is an all around smart guy, Harvard class of '95. He's young hungry and looks like the perfect guy to lead the Sox for years to come. I doubt it will happend of course, but I can dream.

Zednem700

Jerry_Manuel
03-09-2002, 11:06 AM
Originally posted by Zednem700
For that reason I almost hope he pulls off a few stupid trades that kill this season. He would then hopefully get canned, and be replaced.


He's not going anywhere, no matter who he trades.

Daver
03-09-2002, 11:24 AM
Welcome aboard!

baggio202
03-09-2002, 11:26 AM
if williams hasnt pulled off enough stupid trades already to get fired he never will..btw...kip,sean and josh are pitching their ass off this spring...sean and josh just shut down the yankees yesterday ..going 4 innings each..giving up 2 runs on 4 hits between them...

i have my personal fantasy game going at soxnet....im taking all 10 pitchers that kenny williams traded away or let go...and playing them against the sox openday roster...using a point system for wins ,losses ip k, w, ect....

my team will be both wells, baldwin,siro (if he pitches of course),lowe,fogg,eyre,bradford,simas and myette

the only place im in trouble is that i dont have a closer becauce even williams wasnt that stupid to mess up a good thing with foulke...so it should be close....if i dropped foulkes stats ..which would give me 10 pitchers vrs 10 pitches this satff would blow anything the sox are going to throw out there away...so basically..williams has traded away a better pitching staff than the one we have now

make that 11 pitcher..i suppose i have to put kevin bierne in there...i can only hope toronto gave up on him..lol

good job loser...

Zednem700
03-09-2002, 11:57 AM
I realize that its unlikely that KW will get fired, but its not beyond the realm of possibility. If he does a move or two that REALLY blows up in his face I could see him sent packing. This year would seem to be the perfect one for it to happen because De Podesta will probably leave Oakland to GM somewhere else after this season. The Sox would be an attractive team for him, because they've already got a stocked farm system and a number of very good players in the bigs. It would be a team he could turn around quickly and demonstrate his ability to run a franchise. I really think the Oakland guys will dominate upper management for the next few years. Ricciardi is going to do good things in Toronto and De Podesta is going to do well wherever he goes.

Vsahajpal
03-09-2002, 12:38 PM
Originally posted by Zednem700
I realize that its unlikely that KW will get fired, but its not beyond the realm of possibility. If he does a move or two that REALLY blows up in his face I could see him sent packing. This year would seem to be the perfect one for it to happen because De Podesta will probably leave Oakland to GM somewhere else after this season. The Sox would be an attractive team for him, because they've already got a stocked farm system and a number of very good players in the bigs. It would be a team he could turn around quickly and demonstrate his ability to run a franchise. I really think the Oakland guys will dominate upper management for the next few years. Ricciardi is going to do good things in Toronto and De Podesta is going to do well wherever he goes.

I love Paul De Podesta as well, I think the Sox would be his perfect fit, and that may happen if his Harvard ties lead him back to Boston...

MisterB
03-09-2002, 12:51 PM
Reinsdorf hand-picked and groomed KW to be the GM - firing him would mean JR is admitting he was wrong - and I don't see JR doing that. Frankly, I think we're stuck with KW until he 'steps down' like Schueler did. And besides, I think Schueler proves that not every ex-A's front office guy that becomes a GM can put a championship team on the field.

Zednem700
03-09-2002, 12:53 PM
"I love Paul De Podesta as well, I think the Sox would be his perfect fit, and that may happen if his Harvard ties lead him back to Boston..."

Hmm this is a possibility, but more for the fact that the Red Sox want Billy Beane. If they can't get him they might decide to settle for his protege. Then again Boston is a tough market to get your first GM job with the way the press is, the criticism comes fast and curious if you don't kiss enough ass. Also they have NO farm system, it would be a huge pain to fix all the problems that Duquette and company left behind. the only way to do it would be to rebuild and trade some big names, but that will mean catching a ton of hell from the media and fans.

I don't think Harvard ties lead to much of a connection to the Red Sox. Sure Werner went to Harvard, but I doubt that too many people at Harvard become Red Sox fans. Sure a lot go to games, but Fenway is a fabulous place to see a game and its a fun time. There is also some certain rooting for the local team while you're in town, but I doubt it makes any feelings permanent, most people never abandon their home town team. And besides, there are more than enough New Yorkers around to make Red Sox fandom a painful experience.

Of course if De Podesta is from New England all bets are off.

MarqSox
03-09-2002, 01:01 PM
Originally posted by Zednem700
My reasoning is this, Kenny Williams does not look like a good general manager. He seems to like veterans for their "veteranness" and I can really see him trading away the team's future for guys who are or are soon going to be worthless. For that reason I almost hope he pulls off a few stupid trades that kill this season. He would then hopefully get canned, and be replaced.


Does anybody else recognize the absurdity of that statement? I mean, it says "almost hope," but hello? You want your GM to fail because then MAYBE he'll get fired and MAYBE the Sox will be a better team a few years down the line?

I have a better idea. Let's hope instead that KW gets his act together and pulls off a few GOOD TRADES so that we're good now. Or do you not want to see him have success? Personally, I don't care if frickin' Bobby Knight is the Sox GM, as long as he wins.

czalgosz
03-09-2002, 01:18 PM
Originally posted by MarqSox


Does anybody else recognize the absurdity of that statement? I mean, it says "almost hope," but hello? You want your GM to fail because then MAYBE he'll get fired and MAYBE the Sox will be a better team a few years down the line?

I have a better idea. Let's hope instead that KW gets his act together and pulls off a few GOOD TRADES so that we're good now. Or do you not want to see him have success? Personally, I don't care if frickin' Bobby Knight is the Sox GM, as long as he wins.

Well, to put things in perspective, I remember when Schueler started as Sox GM, he made some bonehead moves at first and got pilloried. But by the time he left, most Sox fans were sorry to see him go. I think that KW deserves a little more time before starting to call for his head (emphasis on "little").

Whatever you say about KW, he does want to win. He's willing to make a few risky moves to make that happen. And, so far, the future still looks good.

And he did say that he wasn't going to be trading for El Duque (thank god.)

foulkesfan11
03-09-2002, 01:35 PM
I don't know many people who were sorry to see Schueler go. I for one was cheering for it for a long time! KW's no better. Hopefully we will get this Oakland guy you are all talking about.

baggio202
03-09-2002, 01:36 PM
Originally posted by czalgosz


Well, to put things in perspective, I remember when Schueler started as Sox GM, he made some bonehead moves at first and got pilloried. But by the time he left, most Sox fans were sorry to see him go. I think that KW deserves a little more time before starting to call for his head (emphasis on "little").

Whatever you say about KW, he does want to win. He's willing to make a few risky moves to make that happen. And, so far, the future still looks good.

And he did say that he wasn't going to be trading for El Duque (thank god.)

but schueler didnt take over a 95 win team that was the 2nd youngest in baseball with a 35 million dollar payroll and the best farm system in baseball...when schu took over the relationship between sox management and its fans was no where near as strained as it is now....the sox really needed to repeat their division winning performance last year if this team was to keep increasing attendance and start bringing back fans that reinsdorf ran off....

the situation really required an experienced gm....williams might make a fine gm someday but in the meantime he might destroy this teams chances of a world series.....in hindsight the best move probably was to go out and get an experienced gm from another club..

Dadawg_77
03-09-2002, 01:48 PM
Originally posted by MarqSox


Does anybody else recognize the absurdity of that statement? I mean, it says "almost hope," but hello? You want your GM to fail because then MAYBE he'll get fired and MAYBE the Sox will be a better team a few years down the line?

I have a better idea. Let's hope instead that KW gets his act together and pulls off a few GOOD TRADES so that we're good now. Or do you not want to see him have success? Personally, I don't care if frickin' Bobby Knight is the Sox GM, as long as he wins.

True.
In my dreams have the Sox playing in Oct this year, and winning the last game they play. My nitemares have the Sox blowing a great shot at the playoffs and have internal changes during the offseason.

Jjav829
03-09-2002, 02:01 PM
I really can't see why you would want your favorite team to fail just so the GM would be fired. Your basically saying you want the guys KW got (Ritchie, Lofton) to fail just so you can say hes stupid. Wouldn't it make more sense to hope that KW was right in making his decisions? I can't justify rooting for my favorite team to lose, even if I hate the manager/GM and want to see them get fired. I don't like KW much, and wouldn't mind seeing someone else. Though I do support what he did this offseason except for not getting rid of Clayton. But more than anything I would love to see KW's moves pay off and see the team be successful even if I meant that I was wrong.

For example. I, like many, am not a big Royce Clayton fan, mainly because hes blocking Joe Crede from being in the majors. However, Im not gonna root for Royce to do bad just so I can say I was right about Royce and KW was wrong. Now if I knew that by Royce playing bad for the first month would mean him being benched and Crede being called up, then I would probably root against Clayton for the most part. But since Royce will be playing the whole year, Im gonna root for him. Why? Because hes on the White Sox! I don't care if it means that KW looks smart because Royce ends up with .300/15/60. If it helps the Sox win, then Im all for it.

baggio202
03-09-2002, 02:05 PM
Originally posted by Jjav829
I really can't see why you would want your favorite team to fail just so the GM would be fired. Your basically saying you want the guys KW got (Ritchie, Lofton) to fail just so you can say hes stupid. Wouldn't it make more sense to hope that KW was right in making his decisions? I can't justify rooting for my favorite team to lose, even if I hate the manager/GM and want to see them get fired. I don't like KW much, and wouldn't mind seeing someone else. Though I do support what he did this offseason except for not getting rid of Clayton. But more than anything I would love to see KW's moves pay off and see the team be successful even if I meant that I was wrong.

For example. I, like many, am not a big Royce Clayton fan, mainly because hes blocking Joe Crede from being in the majors. However, Im not gonna root for Royce to do bad just so I can say I was right about Royce and KW was wrong. Now if I knew that by Royce playing bad for the first month would mean him being benched and Crede being called up, then I would probably root against Clayton for the most part. But since Royce will be playing the whole year, Im gonna root for him. Why? Because hes on the White Sox! I don't care if it means that KW looks smart because Royce ends up with .300/15/60. If it helps the Sox win, then Im all for it.

i believe he feels that as long as kw is here the sox will play just good enough for kw to keep his job for a long time..but kw will never make the right moves to give us a real shot at a world series....so if this team really tanks and wins like 60 games...and it costs kw his job...and he is replaced with a better .more experienced gm...then in the long run the sox could be better off...

atleast thats how i took his post

Jjav829
03-09-2002, 02:11 PM
Originally posted by baggio202


i believe he feels that as long as kw is here the sox will play just good enough for kw to keep his job for a long time..but kw will never make the right moves to give us a real shot at a world series....so if this team really tanks and wins like 60 games...and it costs kw his job...and he is replaced with a better .more experienced gm...then in the long run the sox could be better off...

atleast thats how i took his post

I still can't justify rooting against the Sox just for KW to get fired. This goes back to the whole "Players don't win championships, organizations do" thing. If in 10 years the Sox haven't won a World Series, Im not gonna look back and say "Damn, if only Kenny Williams wasn't our GM we most certainly would have won a World Series". If theres really enough talent with the Sox to win a World Series, KW is not gonna hold us back, unless he starts making absolutely ridiculous trades, which Im sure Reinsdorf won't allow. By ridiculous I mean, if he starts doing Jon Rauch for Dan Plesac type deals.

baggio202
03-09-2002, 02:17 PM
Originally posted by Jjav829


I still can't justify rooting against the Sox just for KW to get fired. This goes back to the whole "Players don't win championships, organizations do" thing. If in 10 years the Sox haven't won a World Series, Im not gonna look back and say "Damn, if only Kenny Williams wasn't our GM we most certainly would have won a World Series". If theres really enough talent with the Sox to win a World Series, KW is not gonna hold us back, unless he starts making absolutely ridiculous trades, which Im sure Reinsdorf won't allow. By ridiculous I mean, if he starts doing Jon Rauch for Dan Plesac type deals.

i dont agree with rooting against the sox either...and i wont do that..but some of us already feel kw is making those kinds of trades you are talking about...in my case...the ritchie trade is driving me nuts...

SoxRulecubsdrool
03-09-2002, 02:21 PM
Originally posted by MarqSox


Does anybody else recognize the absurdity of that statement? I mean, it says "almost hope," but hello? You want your GM to fail because then MAYBE he'll get fired and MAYBE the Sox will be a better team a few years down the line?

I have a better idea. Let's hope instead that KW gets his act together and pulls off a few GOOD TRADES so that we're good now. Or do you not want to see him have success? Personally, I don't care if frickin' Bobby Knight is the Sox GM, as long as he wins.

Thank you for saying that. I couln't have said it any better.

Jjav829
03-09-2002, 02:25 PM
Originally posted by baggio202


i dont agree with rooting against the sox either...and i wont do that..but some of us already feel kw is making those kinds of trades you are talking about...in my case...the ritchie trade is driving me nuts...

The Ritchie trade is hardly a Rauch for Plesac type deal. I can understand the argument that Lowe was just as good as Ritchie, but thats based on numbers. Theres a feeling out there that Ritchie is a 20 game winner waiting to happen. I haven't seen him enough to buy into that feeling. But you gotta think about this. Right now the Sox #1 and #2 guys are Buehrle and Ritchie. Could you imagine if KW didn't make this trade? The Sox would be in Spring Training right now with only their #1 starter known! Lets face it, Lowe isn't a #2 starter, and the Sox certainly would not have him higher than their #3. The Sox added a veteran pitcher to stabilize the rotation and gave up 2 guys whose future with the Sox was certainly behind them, and one guy who really didn't have a future with the Sox.

Zednem700
03-09-2002, 02:29 PM
Of course I want the White Sox to play incredibly well and win the World Series. My problem is I don't think KW is a good enough GM to meet this goal. My fear is he'll coast on the talent that other execs compiled for years. Giving us okay but not great White Sox baseball. We'll never be bad, but we probably won't be World Series good either. So far what KW has shown me is he'll trade anyone to add "veteran presence". In 2000 the Sox were the 2nd youngest team in baseball. What does KW do, he adds David Wells, Sandy Alomar Jr., Royce Clayton, and Harold Baines (Harold was probably a Reinsdorf decision though) older players who were actually WORSE than what the team already had.

This offseason he almost traded the farm for Darrin Erstad who has had exactly 1 great season, a bunch of mediocre ones, and is coming off a bunch of injuries. He then gave away a LOT for Todd Ritchie, a decent pitcher but far from a great one. This to me doesn't look like a guy who will get the Sox to the World Series. I hope I'm wrong, but if I'm right I would rather we just lose one year and immediately get a real good GM, than spend a few years being okay and watching our window of opportunity slowly close as our younger guys get older.

Jjav829
03-09-2002, 02:40 PM
Originally posted by Zednem700

He then gave away a LOT for Todd Ritchie, a decent pitcher but far from a great one. This to me doesn't look like a guy who will get the Sox to the World Series. I hope I'm wrong, but if I'm right I would rather we just lose one year and immediately get a real good GM, than spend a few years being okay and watching our window of opportunity slowly close as our younger guys get older.

A LOT of talent? Did I miss something? Did the Sox trade away the second coming of Nolan Ryan for Ritchie? O yeah. I remember how I longed for the days when Josh Fogg came up to save our pitching staff. Give it up. We gave up nothing important. Kip Wells clearly wasn't going to make it with the Sox. Lowe was a nice player to have but the Sox are not going to be horrible this season because they lost Sean Lowe. Todd Ritchie is the type of guy who could make a big difference. (Yes it is a big could)

And do you honestly believe that GM's win championships? Maybe Im missing something, but I don't see KW going out to the mound every five days to pitch.

czalgosz
03-09-2002, 02:45 PM
Originally posted by baggio202


but schueler didnt take over a 95 win team that was the 2nd youngest in baseball with a 35 million dollar payroll and the best farm system in baseball...


Ummm, yes he did. Well, the 1990 Sox won 94 games.

baggio202
03-09-2002, 02:47 PM
Originally posted by Jjav829


The Ritchie trade is hardly a Rauch for Plesac type deal. I can understand the argument that Lowe was just as good as Ritchie, but thats based on numbers. Theres a feeling out there that Ritchie is a 20 game winner waiting to happen. I haven't seen him enough to buy into that feeling. But you gotta think about this. Right now the Sox #1 and #2 guys are Buehrle and Ritchie. Could you imagine if KW didn't make this trade? The Sox would be in Spring Training right now with only their #1 starter known! Lets face it, Lowe isn't a #2 starter, and the Sox certainly would not have him higher than their #3. The Sox added a veteran pitcher to stabilize the rotation and gave up 2 guys whose future with the Sox was certainly behind them, and one guy who really didn't have a future with the Sox.

i disagree with your analysis...i think we would be much better off today w/op that trade..to me..it almost looks lik a rauch for pleasac...i think kip wells will have better year than todd ritchie...

i hope for the sox sake that trade works out..because it seemed to be the last straw for alot of people

Jjav829
03-09-2002, 02:57 PM
Originally posted by baggio202


i disagree with your analysis...i think we would be much better off today w/op that trade..to me..it almost looks lik a rauch for pleasac...i think kip wells will have better year than todd ritchie...

i hope for the sox sake that trade works out..because it seemed to be the last straw for alot of people

So you would rather have Kip Wells as your #2 starter this year? Maybe he will have a good year, maybe not. But I have more confidence in the Sox going into this year knowing that Todd Ritchie is the #2 starter. Last year I got as nervous watching Kip Wells pitch, as he looked himself pitching.

But I completely disagree that we gave up "a lot" to get Ritchie. We didn't give up anyone who was a top 5 pitcher in the Sox system and we got someone who could potentially be a very good #2 for us. And now with all these people saying their worried about our pitching, we certainly need someone like Ritchie. Lets face it. There was no Curt Schilling for us to go trade for. We traded for one of the best pitchers that was available, so I disagree with the feeling that we got screwed. Maybe you can explain to me why you would feel better off with Kip Wells as the Sox #2 starter because out of all the people I talked to about this, no one has been able to give me a sensible answer.

Zednem700
03-09-2002, 03:30 PM
I think giving up a decent long reliever/ spot starter, a young pitcher who has good stuff, and a well regarded minor league prospect for the 29th best ERA in the NL is a bit much. The question isn't "would you be happier if Kip Wells was the number two starter?" the question is did what we get cost us MORE than it should have. My GOD his ERA was WORSE than Jason Bere's for pete's sake
We overpayed for Todd Ritchie, is he still valuable, sure. Is he more valuable than any SINGLE player we gave up,sure. But he still cost too much. I personally think he could have a pretty good year for the Sox, not spectacular but a better looking year than last year. That said part of a GM's job description is too get the mist bang for his buck. KW spent B+ money for a B- product. He should have been able to get Ritchie for less, the fact that he didn't is a knock against him.

kermittheefrog
03-09-2002, 04:06 PM
I know what you mean Zendem. It's being stuck between a rock and a hard place. You want the Sox to win but logically you don't have enough confidence in Williams' moves to believe they can win. The only answer I have to this tough situation is: At least we're not the Royals, a losing organization that refuses to make changes in it's upper management forever dooming themselves to suck.

pearso66
03-09-2002, 04:17 PM
i admit, i wasnt a fan of the ritchie trade at first, i loved lowe, and i thought, and hoped maybe kip would do something, show me some promise. but now that i think about it, ritchie was a good person to trade for, if he doesnt pan out this year, we have tons of talented pitching coming up behind him, where if we still had kip, because he showed promise in the minors, KW would want to keep him around, keeping some other pitcher from coming up, this could work this year, but if it doesnt, then ritchie might be gone, and then our other younger pitchers will get their shot

Zednem700
03-09-2002, 04:19 PM
Originally posted by kermittheefrog
I know what you mean Zendem. It's being stuck between a rock and a hard place. You want the Sox to win but logically you don't have enough confidence in Williams' moves to believe they can win. The only answer I have to this tough situation is: At least we're not the Royals, a losing organization that refuses to make changes in it's upper management forever dooming themselves to suck.

Oh god I'd kill myself if the Sox became the Royals. I really think there is an opportunity here for the Sox to actually put themselves ahead of the curve. The Oakland style is going to take off, get one of these guys now when they're relatively cheap and reap the rewards as other teams struggle to catch up. I like De Podesta in particular because he's a smart guy, and likely to be an above average GM even after most teams adopt Oakland and pretty soon Toronto's winning strategies. Oh yeah it would also be cool if De Podesta hired a Prospectus guy like Ricciardi did with Keith Law. Voros McCracken is a Sox fan I believe.

CubKilla
03-09-2002, 05:07 PM
If you don't like KW that is one thing. But to wish the team ill will because of this dislike is ridiculous. This reeks of the post earlier in the week of the sCrUB fan that never wants to see the sCrUBS win the WS because he will have nothing to look forward to next season (after you win the WS, what else is there to do?????). And if KW's fired by Reinsdorf or resigns, we all should realize by now that JR will hire a GM that is a "yes" man. Reinsdorf will never hire a premier GM..... not as long as I am alive.