PDA

View Full Version : With the Bullpen Complete, Are We Done Yet?


SouthSideLove
12-16-2006, 02:39 PM
Question for everyone...With the bullpen pretty much complete (Jenks, Aardsma, Thornton, Sisco, MacDougal, Floyd/McCarthy), what is there left for this team to address before Spring Training? As I see it, the only thing of true importance left is Crede and arbitration. We have got to get this guy signed to a long term deal, and soon. Boras will not make it easy, and I have come to terms with the fact that we will eventually lost him. But what issues are pressing some of you Sox fans at this point?

Lets talk!

SoXPriDe33
12-16-2006, 02:43 PM
As I see it, the only thing of true importance left is Crede and arbitration. We have got to get this guy signed to a long term deal, and soon.
Lets talk!

Correct me if I'm wrong but I thought the Sox said they won't be resigning Crede to a long-term deal.

SouthSideLove
12-16-2006, 02:43 PM
I did not hear of such a thing. Is there a link, or article you can point me to?

CPditka
12-16-2006, 02:48 PM
I did not hear of such a thing. Is there a link, or article you can point me to?

Hes right the sox and KW said there is no plans for a long term deal with Crede and basically he will be under 1 year contracts until eligible for free agency after the 2008 season.

Domeshot17
12-16-2006, 02:55 PM
I would have liked in all this hooplah of the offseason to get someone I know will be good. We got a ton projects for Cooper (who already had fixing the rotation to deal with this spring) and I think eventually we are going to find some guys won't listen to him or he won't be able to correct them.

I also don't like that our entire bullpen throws 96+. You need someone in there who can offer a change of pace. Jenks is going to get harder this year because hitters in the 6th 7th and 8th are going to see a bunch of fireballers. I do like the quality of arms we got to an extent (although almost half the bullpen is a big ?) but just not the make up. Gavin Floyd will have to step up big IMHO.

I would like to see us try and address an upgrade at one of our weak offensive positions, be it SS or CF. SS is my preference because Anderson's D is top notch and he is young enough to correct himself, Uribe will never have the plate presence or discipline to change as a hitter, and he looked very lazy in the field last year(To the point his biggest supporters called him out).

champagne030
12-16-2006, 03:01 PM
Question for everyone...With the bullpen pretty much complete (Jenks, Aardsma, Thornton, Sisco, MacDougal, Floyd/McCarthy), what is there left for this team to address before Spring Training? As I see it, the only thing of true importance left is Crede and arbitration. We have got to get this guy signed to a long term deal, and soon. Boras will not make it easy, and I have come to terms with the fact that we will eventually lost him. But what issues are pressing some of you Sox fans at this point?

Lets talk!

The bullpen isn't even close to complete unless you like roulette. Sisco and Floyd are major, major reclamation projects. Aardsma needs to throw more strikes and walk a lot less batters.

Outside of the bullpen, I think our #1 need is a 4th OF, who can play CF. Owens, Sweeney and Terrero are not the answer. Owens/Sweeney aren't legit defensive CF and Terrero is a really lame option.

oeo
12-16-2006, 03:08 PM
I would have liked in all this hooplah of the offseason to get someone I know will be good. We got a ton projects for Cooper (who already had fixing the rotation to deal with this spring) and I think eventually we are going to find some guys won't listen to him or he won't be able to correct them.

I also don't like that our entire bullpen throws 96+. You need someone in there who can offer a change of pace. Jenks is going to get harder this year because hitters in the 6th 7th and 8th are going to see a bunch of fireballers. I do like the quality of arms we got to an extent (although almost half the bullpen is a big ?) but just not the make up. Gavin Floyd will have to step up big IMHO.

I would like to see us try and address an upgrade at one of our weak offensive positions, be it SS or CF. SS is my preference because Anderson's D is top notch and he is young enough to correct himself, Uribe will never have the plate presence or discipline to change as a hitter, and he looked very lazy in the field last year(To the point his biggest supporters called him out).

Says who? These guys don't just throw heat, they have overall very good stuff.

Myrtle72
12-16-2006, 03:11 PM
I'm still not convinced that Pods is actually going to return next year.

oeo
12-16-2006, 03:12 PM
I'm still not convinced that Pods is actually going to return next year.

Reasons why you feel this way?

The_Floridian
12-16-2006, 03:34 PM
The only person on our roster that I feel I know nothing about is Chris Stewart. What's his story? Will he be a decent backup?

I know I'm probably being a bit nitpicky...wondering about our backup catcher. But I'm pretty happy about the rest of the team as is, particularly considering the market.

So what's the deal on Stewart? How's his arm? His defense? Can he hit? Did he shoot a man in Reno just to watch him die?

Daver
12-16-2006, 03:43 PM
The only person on our roster that I feel I know nothing about is Chris Stewart. What's his story? Will he be a decent backup?

I know I'm probably being a bit nitpicky...wondering about our backup catcher. But I'm pretty happy about the rest of the team as is, particularly considering the market.

So what's the deal on Stewart? How's his arm? His defense? Can he hit? Did he shoot a man in Reno just to watch him die?


Try looking here. (http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=82259)

CWSpalehoseCWS
12-16-2006, 03:44 PM
I still don't neccessarily think our bullpen is a done deal. I could see KW adding at least 1 more veteran guy.

Myrtle72
12-16-2006, 03:50 PM
Reasons why you feel this way?

No reasons that haven't already been said. He had a crappy 2006 season and it's possible that he may be included in a trade at some point. If he can do his job, we're set, but does Kenny really believe that he can? :dunno:

jandm859
12-16-2006, 05:14 PM
The bullpen isn't even close to complete unless you like roulette. Sisco and Floyd are major, major reclamation projects. Aardsma needs to throw more strikes and walk a lot less batters.

Outside of the bullpen, I think our #1 need is a 4th OF, who can play CF. Owens, Sweeney and Terrero are not the answer. Owens/Sweeney aren't legit defensive CF and Terrero is a really lame option.

i agree how can anyone be happy with this off season its a joke
maybe next time we can try to get a guy with an era of like 9 im sure he'll be cheaper then the guys with a 7. yea im negative and pissed also
they lied they said if the stands were full theyd spend the money on the team B.S

nodiggity59
12-16-2006, 05:24 PM
The bullpen isn't even close to complete unless you like roulette. Sisco and Floyd are major, major reclamation projects. Aardsma needs to throw more strikes and walk a lot less batters.

Outside of the bullpen, I think our #1 need is a 4th OF, who can play CF. Owens, Sweeney and Terrero are not the answer. Owens/Sweeney aren't legit defensive CF and Terrero is a really lame option.

Please. If Sisco is reclamation, so is Cotts. If Aardsma just does what he did last year, we'll be fine.

People seem to think you need 6 guys with sub 3 eras to have a great BP. That's not true. With our top 3 guys, we need the rest to have only a 4-4.5 ERA and we'll be fine.

What we don't need is 6 plus ERA from guys like Politte, Cotts (2nd half), Logan, and injuries like w/ Hermanson and Nelson.

I love our BP. I wouldn't say it'll as good as 05, but I would say it has the potential to be even better than 05.

MisterB
12-16-2006, 06:56 PM
The bullpen as it stands has a lot of potential, but not much that can be counted on. MacDougal's the only one with real track record, everyone else has 3 years or less in the majors. It's a good collection of talent, but then again last year the rotation was arguably the most talented in the majors yet their collective performance was astonishingly mediocre. I'd rather not go into another season assuming that the rotation will make up for a questionable bullpen.

thedudeabides
12-16-2006, 07:36 PM
I would have liked in all this hooplah of the offseason to get someone I know will be good. We got a ton projects for Cooper (who already had fixing the rotation to deal with this spring) and I think eventually we are going to find some guys won't listen to him or he won't be able to correct them.

I also don't like that our entire bullpen throws 96+. You need someone in there who can offer a change of pace. Jenks is going to get harder this year because hitters in the 6th 7th and 8th are going to see a bunch of fireballers. I do like the quality of arms we got to an extent (although almost half the bullpen is a big ?) but just not the make up. Gavin Floyd will have to step up big IMHO.

I would like to see us try and address an upgrade at one of our weak offensive positions, be it SS or CF. SS is my preference because Anderson's D is top notch and he is young enough to correct himself, Uribe will never have the plate presence or discipline to change as a hitter, and he looked very lazy in the field last year(To the point his biggest supporters called him out).

I disagree with this train of thought. You are not facing the same hitters every inning. Also, these pitchers give different looks and throw different pitches. Give me six power arms out of the bullpen and I'm happy. The ability to get a strikeout is a huge element of relief pitching.

Frater Perdurabo
12-16-2006, 07:51 PM
I disagree with this train of thought. You are not facing the same hitters every inning. Also, these pitchers give different looks and throw different pitches. Give me six power arms out of the bullpen and I'm happy. The ability to get a strikeout is a huge element of relief pitching.

I think I agree. If the Sox had six Billy Koch clones in the pen, all of whom threw straight blazing fastballs, then it would be a problem. But from what I understand, several of these guys can mix in other pitches and can throw them for strikes. It's just that to date they have not consistently thrown non-fastballs for strikes. That's where Cooper can work his magic. They ought to be able to get ground outs and pop outs, but having the heat gives them the added ability to get the K when they need it most.

HomeFish
12-16-2006, 08:20 PM
I wouldn't characterize our bullpen as "complete". A lot of guys in there are question marks, even as far as relief pitchers go. Floyd, Aardsma, and Sisco are all coming off pretty terrible records, and while they have a huge upside, they also have the potential to fail dramatically.

What we need to do is ridiculously overstock on bullpen arms, and then have them compete for spots. I'd feel more comfortable if we got another 2 or 3 prospects or veterans trying to make a comeback in there. Even if we get only one good half-season out of them (like we got with Hermanson or even Jackson's first few months on this team), that's better than nothing.

rdwj
12-16-2006, 08:26 PM
Hes right the sox and KW said there is no plans for a long term deal with Crede and basically he will be under 1 year contracts until eligible for free agency after the 2008 season.

We got similar stories about Garland and Jose. Just because we're hearing it doesn't mean it's true. I'm sure the Sox would LOVE to sign Crede. He's a fan favorite and one of the best 3rd baggers in the league.

DickAllen72
12-16-2006, 10:17 PM
Sisco might not even start the season in the Sox bullpen according to KW.

thomas35forever
12-17-2006, 04:29 PM
Sisco might not even start the season in the Sox bullpen according to KW.
Where does it say he was ever a starter?

ilsox7
12-17-2006, 04:30 PM
Where does it say he was ever a starter?

He was a starter until KC took him in the Rule 5 Draft. KW has also said that if he wants to start, he may let him do so in Charlotte to start the year.

ondafarm
12-17-2006, 04:40 PM
I wouldn't characterize our bullpen as "complete". A lot of guys in there are question marks, even as far as relief pitchers go. Floyd, Aardsma, and Sisco are all coming off pretty terrible records, and while they have a huge upside, they also have the potential to fail dramatically.

What we need to do is ridiculously overstock on bullpen arms, and then have them compete for spots. I'd feel more comfortable if we got another 2 or 3 prospects or veterans trying to make a comeback in there. Even if we get only one good half-season out of them (like we got with Hermanson or even Jackson's first few months on this team), that's better than nothing.

Another classic Homefish post. And you still have your Thucydides. Way to be consistent. Any chance you'll change to Xenophon's Anabasis?

MRM
12-17-2006, 05:15 PM
Question for everyone...With the bullpen pretty much complete (Jenks, Aardsma, Thornton, Sisco, MacDougal, Floyd/McCarthy)

The Bullpen is not complete with those names. Floyd will almost certainly be starting somewhere, probably Charlotte. The Sox didn't give up Freddie to get a middle reliever with mechanics problems who should be starting. I hope Sisco goes down to Charlotte to resume starting again, too. McCarthy will never go back to the pen again, that's already been stated by Williams.

What you presume above is also too many power arms in the pen at one time. With Jenks, Aardsma, Thornton, and MacDougal all throwing 98+ already why would you insert two more fireballers? Haegar would be deadly in the middle of that group and should get every opportunity to make the team (if anybody learns how to catch him). Sean Tracy might be good as the 6th guy if he has worked out his control issues.

Then you have Sisco, Floyd, Gonzalez, and Broadway who all have plus arms and should all be ready to start within a year or two if all goes well. There is far more upside in that scenerio than in putting any of them in the Pen. Floyd, at least, would be capable of coming up and filling in this year if needed for a spot start here or there. That also leaves alot of flexibility in future trades as I believe all 4 of those guys is 23 or younger.

MRM
12-17-2006, 05:18 PM
Where does it say he was ever a starter?

Sisco was always a starter until KC threw him into their pen out of neccesity. He was starting in winter ball this year, too.

MRM
12-17-2006, 05:27 PM
i agree how can anyone be happy with this off season its a joke
maybe next time we can try to get a guy with an era of like 9 im sure he'll be cheaper then the guys with a 7. yea im negative and pissed also
they lied they said if the stands were full theyd spend the money on the team B.S

Forget the ERAs of Sisco and Floyd last year. Floyd simply wasn't ready yet but showed flashes. He actually did throw a shutout last year. Sisco should be a starter.

And there was no "lie" when you consider the payroll for '07 is already higher than it was in '06 and Kenny has room to add to it if something comes along.

A. Cavatica
12-17-2006, 05:35 PM
Sox have made the obvious & necessary moves (dealing a starter to reduce salary, collecting a few live arms to vie for bullpen jobs, signing a backup catcher) but still need to address the batting order. I can't believe KW will be content to go into 2007 with Anderson/Uribe/Pods batting consecutively. I still expect him a quantity-for-quality deal to upgrade one of those spots.

jabrch
12-17-2006, 05:42 PM
Where does it say he was ever a starter?

He always was. The Royals knew he wasn't ready in 2005 to be a MAJOR LEAGUE starter, but they wanted to not lose him back to the Cubs so they kept him in the pen all year. FWIW, this was the route that Minny took with Santana to avoid giving him back in the Rule 5 also. Not saying Sisco = Santana - just that Sisco was not then ready to start in the majors. I don't know if he'd be ready in 2008 after a full season in the minors starting, but if he is - then KW just hit the jackpot.

The Bullpen is not complete with those names.

Names? I didn't know that the names mattered. That's a damn good group of arms in terms of their stuff. What Coop and KW do with it is another story.

TheOldRoman
12-17-2006, 06:01 PM
The Sox didn't give up Freddie to get a middle reliever with mechanics problems who should be starting.
The Sox never traded Freddie. In fact, I don't ever remember a player named Freddie on the White Sox.

i agree how can anyone be happy with this off season its a joke
maybe next time we can try to get a guy with an era of like 9 im sure he'll be cheaper then the guys with a 7. yea im negative and pissed also
they lied they said if the stands were full theyd spend the money on the team B.S
Well, I guess Hangar re-registered.

You only have 25 posts and you waste one of them on this garbage? Congratulations, you thoroughly humiliated yourself. If any team can decrease its payroll while simultaneously increasing it, the White Sox can.:rolleyes:

MRM
12-17-2006, 06:23 PM
I disagree with this train of thought. You are not facing the same hitters every inning. Also, these pitchers give different looks and throw different pitches. Give me six power arms out of the bullpen and I'm happy. The ability to get a strikeout is a huge element of relief pitching.

When you can gear up knowing you are going to be facing a fast ball first pitcher every time you get to the Sox pen it's not a good thing. Particularly when a couple of the guys mentioned have some trouble locating their other pitches. They get behind in the count and you know the fastball is coming, making it much easier to hit. Also it's not a matter of facing the same hitters every inning, but of the hitters facing the same relievers a couple of times in a series. 100MPH fastballs for strike three are exciting, but not nearly enough. Jenks, for example, is better when he uses his big curve ball as his out pitch. When that curve isn't working, he is far less effective.

Also, a guy hitting in the 6th against a fireballer is going to see -at least- one more at bat. Better to have a guy with a great change, or even knuckleball to throw at him the next time around rather than just let them gear up for power no matter who comes in. The fastball is the easiest pitch to hit if you *know* it's coming.

It just gives you alot more options situationally if you have more diversity in the pen.

Ol' No. 2
12-18-2006, 12:12 PM
Another classic Homefish post. And you still have your Thucydides. Way to be consistent. Any chance you'll change to Xenophon's Anabasis?I'm actually going to agree with what I thought Homefish was trying to say. People are counting on Thornton and MacDougal in much the same way as they were counting on Cotts and Politte last year, and we know how that worked out. Bullpen pitchers are the most uncertain commodity in baseball, and it makes sense to stock up, hoping enough work out to carry you through. None of the guys they have are anything close to sure things.

ondafarm
12-18-2006, 12:27 PM
I'm actually going to agree with what I thought Homefish was trying to say. People are counting on Thornton and MacDougal in much the same way as they were counting on Cotts and Politte last year, and we know how that worked out. Bullpen pitchers are the most uncertain commodity in baseball, and it makes sense to stock up, hoping enough work out to carry you through. None of the guys they have are anything close to sure things.

Anybody in high level baseball could tell you that Politte had a huge downside waiting to happen and Cotts always was vulnerable to overwork. Both are relatively small guys generating fastballs, that won't last. Thornton and MacDougal are big guys and their fastballs won't be disappearing anytime soon. They might have control issues, but that can typically be fixed. Power issues are beyond even a good to great pitching coach's purview.

Ol' No. 2
12-18-2006, 12:37 PM
Anybody in high level baseball could tell you that Politte had a huge downside waiting to happen and Cotts always was vulnerable to overwork. Both are relatively small guys generating fastballs, that won't last. Thornton and MacDougal are big guys and their fastballs won't be disappearing anytime soon. They might have control issues, but that can typically be fixed. Power issues are beyond even a good to great pitching coach's purview.But this is about more than just Cotts and Politte. There's always a lot of uncertainty with bullpen pitchers. It looks to me like Floyd, Sisco and Haegar are most likely to be the final three bullpen pitchers. I'd say they need some backups, because it's pretty likely that at least one of them is not going to cut it.