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cws05champ
12-12-2006, 11:33 PM
ESPN has a poll to rank the GM's, Kenny is currently in 6th. ATTACK!

http://proxy.espn.go.com/chat/sportsnation/listranker?id=617

23Ventura
12-12-2006, 11:38 PM
Billy Beane #1? That list sucks.

I gave Kenny Williams the top spot, but if I weren't a White Sox fan, I'd probably have given it to John Schuerholz.

Jjav829
12-12-2006, 11:39 PM
I voted KW #1 and Beane #32. :redneck

Who the hell is Doug Littlefield? :?: Geez, I know it's only Pittsburgh, but at least get the guy's name right.

BRDSR
12-12-2006, 11:40 PM
My good lord, I can see Kenny Williams being 6. I think he's top 5 no matter what, but Cashman at #4!?

I know this board is going to light up Beane for being number 1, but to me, that is far less agregious than Cashman at 4.

oeo
12-12-2006, 11:43 PM
My good lord, I can see Kenny Williams being 6. I think he's top 5 no matter what, but Cashman at #4!?

I know this board is going to light up Beane for being number 1, but to me, that is far less agregious than Cashman at 4.

And Epstein, as well? Epstein not only has a ton of money to work with, but he also butchered the 2004 World Champions. He's terrible...

cws05champ
12-12-2006, 11:45 PM
Billy Beane's computer is just about to shut down after voting for himself 14,320 times.....self promoting SOB!

gobears1987
12-12-2006, 11:54 PM
Billy Beane should be ranked at the bottom, but I won't rank Kenny #1 until he fixes this team. He sure as hell didn't help the team with his recent trade of a 17 win pitcher.

oeo
12-12-2006, 11:55 PM
Billy Beane should be ranked at the bottom, but I won't rank Kenny #1 until he fixes this team. He sure as hell didn't help the team with his recent trade of a 17 win pitcher.

Yes, he ruined the team by trading Freddy. OMG, we're doomed!

MrX
12-13-2006, 12:00 AM
Billy Beane's computer is just about to shut down after voting for himself 14,320 times.....self promoting SOB!
He has the entire Baseball Prospectus office voting for him as well

ondafarm
12-13-2006, 12:23 AM
I voted Williams first and four boneheads so as not to help them against KW.

FireMariotti
12-13-2006, 01:39 AM
The biggest problem with this whole thing is it that not many baseball fans may know who is the GM of each team, only the one's they've heard of.

Good or bad, a lot of people know who Bill Beane is. Cashman and Epstein too. Not too many may know John Schuerholz of the Braves though, and he is one of the best in the biz.

Edit: After taking the poll, I guess alot of people do know Schuerholz :redface:, but I think my point about the whole thing is still relevent.

caulfield12
12-13-2006, 02:01 AM
How is Terry Ryan not #1?

Grzegorz
12-13-2006, 04:47 AM
How is Terry Ryan not #1?

That's the guy I'd look to.

Billy Beane should be ranked at the bottom, but I won't rank Kenny #1 until he fixes this team. He sure as hell didn't help the team with his recent trade of a 17 win pitcher.

Define "fix"...

itsnotrequired
12-13-2006, 07:22 AM
Love or hate him, Billy Beane is a pretty good GM. In his 9 full seasons as GM, he has compiled 8 winning seasons, 4 division titles (plus a wild card) and eclipsed 100 wins twice. This is all with a shoestring budget. The 2004 salary of the Athletics ranked 16th in the majors at $59 million and that is the highest rank the team has under Beane. The team has ranked in the bottom third of total payroll every other year. Yeah, yeah, the AL West is relatively weak but they still have powerhouse LA in the division.

INSox56
12-13-2006, 08:21 AM
How is Terry Ryan not #1?
Sorry Kenny, that's who I voted for. I had thought well of Schuerholz and Shapiro until I thought of how horribly the Braves have been in offseasons/trade deadlines recently and when I thought of how Shapiro screwed up after 05 and replaced like his whole rotation with Paul Byrd. He did pretty well this past offseason though...

The biggest problem with this whole thing is it that not many baseball fans may know who is the GM of each team, only the one's they've heard of.

If you hover over a name, in the right column it says who they're GM for.

CPditka
12-13-2006, 08:22 AM
Kennys @ 5 now.

MarySwiss
12-13-2006, 09:02 AM
OKay, I'm not getting this. I did my picks, but there's nothing there for me to click to submit my vote. And where do you go to see how KW is doing?

Hitmen77
12-13-2006, 09:08 AM
OKay, I'm not getting this. I did my picks, but there's nothing there for me to click to sumbit my vote. And where do you go to see how KW is doing?

I have the same problem.

Fenway
12-13-2006, 09:12 AM
KW is now #5 passing Theo

(who I voted 30th)

PaulDrake
12-13-2006, 09:16 AM
OKay, I'm not getting this. I did my picks, but there's nothing there for me to click to submit my vote. And where do you go to see how KW is doing? I'm lousy at explaining anything remotely technical, but there are 30 numbers below all the GMs. Just take #1 and drag it to the picture of your favorite GM, then go to #2 and so on. This is another popularity contest, but we might as well give our GM a plug. Terry Ryan at #9? That's a travesty.

MarySwiss
12-13-2006, 09:26 AM
I'm lousy at explaining anything remotely technical, but there are 30 numbers below all the GMs. Just take #1 and drag it to the picture of your favorite GM, then go to #2 and so on. This is another popularity contest, but we might as well give our GM a plug. Terry Ryan at #9? That's a travesty.
No, I get that part. What I don't see is anywhere to click so the vote will be counted.

Edit: Okay, never mind. Got it. ESPN--being clear as mud as usual--said you had to rank at least five GMs in order for your vote to be counted. What they meant was you had to rank five GMs as 1-5. I ranked KW #1, then Epstein, Beane, etc., as 27, 28, 29, 30.

soxinem1
12-13-2006, 09:41 AM
Love or hate him, Billy Beane is a pretty good GM. In his 9 full seasons as GM, he has compiled 8 winning seasons, 4 division titles (plus a wild card) and eclipsed 100 wins twice. This is all with a shoestring budget. The 2004 salary of the Athletics ranked 16th in the majors at $59 million and that is the highest rank the team has under Beane. The team has ranked in the bottom third of total payroll every other year. Yeah, yeah, the AL West is relatively weak but they still have powerhouse LA in the division.

True, Beane has been creative, but he has no results for the main prize. Plus, his own fan base does not even support the team.

My rankings:

1. Dave Dombrowski
2. KW
3. John Schuerholz
4. Terry Ryan
5. Omar Minaya
6. Walt Jocketty
7. Pat Gillick

Hitmen77
12-13-2006, 09:47 AM
No, I get that part. What I don't see is anywhere to click so the vote will be counted.

Edit: Okay, never mind. Got it. ESPN--being clear as mud as usual--said you had to rank at least five GMs in order for your vote to be counted. What they meant was you had to rank five GMs as 1-5. I ranked KW #1, then Epstein, Beane, etc., as 27, 28, 29, 30.

That's the same problem I had. Thanks.

itsnotrequired
12-13-2006, 09:53 AM
True, Beane has been creative, but he has no results for the main prize. Plus, his own fan base does not even support the team.

Compare the A's to another team that hasn't won it all, say, the Mets. In the same timeframe as Beane, the Mets have had 2 fewer winning seasons, 3 fewer division titles (2 fewer postseason appearances) and have never had a season with 100+ wins. The money dropped on payroll from 1998-2006?

A's: $375 million

Mets: $801 million

So with more than double the dollars spent, the Mets are no closer than the A's. But this can be said of many teams. To be fair, the Mets did win a pennant in 2000.

It is a shame that Oakland fans don't come out more. A's per game average attendance has dropped for the last four years in a row.

soxinem1
12-13-2006, 10:22 AM
Compare the A's to another team that hasn't won it all, say, the Mets. In the same timeframe as Beane, the Mets have had 2 fewer winning seasons, 3 fewer division titles (2 fewer postseason appearances) and have never had a season with 100+ wins. The money dropped on payroll from 1998-2006?

A's: $375 million

Mets: $801 million

So with more than double the dollars spent, the Mets are no closer than the A's. But this can be said of many teams. To be fair, the Mets did win a pennant in 2000.

It is a shame that Oakland fans don't come out more. A's per game average attendance has dropped for the last four years in a row.


These are all points well taken, however:

The big problem I have with Beane is his total reliance with OBP as a trait with the players he signs. Then once they get into a playoff series, the offensive weaknesses of no speed and station to station base running just glare.

Even with the one playoff series they won under him this year, it was because the Twins forgot how to hit, as the A's hit about .220 themselves. Marco Scutaro can only come through so many times..... Plus, to have been stuck in a position to have Hiram Boccachica and D'Angelo Jimenez on your playoff roster just tells me he didn't care to do anything to help his team when they needed it. Christ, they probably could have gotten Jeff Cirillo or someone like him to play 2B in August.

When guys like Lofton were available cheap, he would go get a guy like Jay Payton. I think Lofton's speed would have helped them more in a playoff series than Scott Hatteberg's walks.

So if you see it is not working, tinker a bit and try to remedy your weaknesses.

Plus, when he signed Loaiza he actually helped fuel the $7-8 million a season benchmark for mediocre starters. Definitely not something a small market team with a low fan base should practice.

White Sox Randy
12-13-2006, 10:24 AM
I ranked Kenny 8th.

caulfield12
12-13-2006, 10:45 AM
True, Beane has been creative, but he has no results for the main prize. Plus, his own fan base does not even support the team.

My rankings:

1. Dave Dombrowski
2. KW
3. John Schuerholz
4. Terry Ryan
5. Omar Minaya
6. Walt Jocketty
7. Pat Gillick

Pat Gillick in the 80's and maybe the 90's, but not recently.

Minaya, it's more difficult to judge him with that kind of budget to work with.

Same with Schuerholz, although it's difficult to argue against either BB, Ryan or the Braves...I guess DD would be fourth for my vote, due to his work with the Marlins and the Tigers.

FedEx227
12-13-2006, 11:05 AM
My top five: Schuerholz, Kenny, Ryan, Beane, DD

Luke
12-13-2006, 11:13 AM
My top five: Schuerholz, Kenny, Ryan, Beane, DD

Good top 5. That's how I had them, except I flipped Beane and DD.

SoCalWhiteSoxFan
12-13-2006, 12:13 PM
I voted as follows: (1) Schuerholz; (2) Billy Beane; (3) KW; (4) Jockety; (5) Purpura.

You can't argue with Schuerholz's success--all of those consecutive playoff appearances in spite of constant roster turnover.

I do not understand all the animosity here against Beane. He is forced to operate with a low payroll, yet assembles contending teams year-in and year-out.

I like KW. He's obviously been successful, and is very proactive. But I question some of his moves at times. Vazquez for Chris Young looks like a complete dud; I bet he wish he could re-think that. I also don't understand some of his non-tender moves: Riske, this year; and Thomas, last year. He's basically blowing off compensatory draft picks.

ma-gaga
12-13-2006, 12:52 PM
The big problem I have with Beane is his total reliance with OBP as a trait with the players he signs.

That is so 2002 Oakland A's baseball. I don't like the A's, you don't have to like the A's, but Beane clearly knows how to put together a winning team. I rated him in the top 10.

Bowden, Krivisky, and Sabean were at the bottom of my list. :cool:

caulfield12
12-13-2006, 01:50 PM
I voted as follows: (1) Schuerholz; (2) Billy Beane; (3) KW; (4) Jockety; (5) Purpura.

You can't argue with Schuerholz's success--all of those consecutive playoff appearances in spite of constant roster turnover.

I do not understand all the animosity here against Beane. He is forced to operate with a low payroll, yet assembles contending teams year-in and year-out.

I like KW. He's obviously been successful, and is very proactive. But I question some of his moves at times. Vazquez for Chris Young looks like a complete dud; I bet he wish he could re-think that. I also don't understand some of his non-tender moves: Riske, this year; and Thomas, last year. He's basically blowing off compensatory draft picks.

Did you want Frank Thomas on the team in 2006 at $10 million, having no idea about his injury situation and a history of injuries from 1998 onward?

Was he even classified a Type A free agent based on this performance in 2005 and the prior years?

If we offered Riske arbitration, then we would be stuck with a pitcher making $3 million on our roster that we didn't even want. Are there lots of other teams in mad pursuit of him? I don't think so. Why would Riske not take the money from the White Sox if they tendered him, knowing that it's doubtful he would get that money elsewhere? Then you would be complaining that our bullpen sucked and we never should have kept Riske.

And how many times have the White Sox let a pitcher go in mid-season with a multi-million dollar contract? They did it with Takatsu and Politte, but I can hardly remember eating a contract at all over the prior ten seasons or so.

SoCalWhiteSoxFan
12-13-2006, 06:17 PM
Did you want Frank Thomas on the team in 2006 at $10 million, having no idea about his injury situation and a history of injuries from 1998 onward?

Was he even classified a Type A free agent based on this performance in 2005 and the prior years?

If we offered Riske arbitration, then we would be stuck with a pitcher making $3 million on our roster that we didn't even want. Are there lots of other teams in mad pursuit of him? I don't think so. Why would Riske not take the money from the White Sox if they tendered him, knowing that it's doubtful he would get that money elsewhere? Then you would be complaining that our bullpen sucked and we never should have kept Riske.

And how many times have the White Sox let a pitcher go in mid-season with a multi-million dollar contract? They did it with Takatsu and Politte, but I can hardly remember eating a contract at all over the prior ten seasons or so.

I believe Thomas was a type-A free agent. He probably would have agreed to arbitration, so we can let KW off the hook on that.

But I do not understand not offering arbitration to Riske. He certainly is better than or as good as any of the current candidates for long relief (i.e., Haegar and Tracy). He also had some trade value. And given the current insane free agent market, the odds were he might have not opted for arbitration, and instead tested the free agent market. In any event, not offering him salary arbitration results in our losing more draft picks.

As Cheat points out, offering arbitration to Colon and Gordon resulted in sandwich comp picks Lumsden and Gio Gonzalez, which in turn were pieces used by KW in acquiring Thome and MacDougal. http://southsidesox.com/story/2006/12/2/23515/9555

As I stated before, I also think KW made a huge mistake in trading away Chris Young for Vazquez. Ugh. How would Young look right now as an option in CF of LF??? And as a potential replacement for Dye once he leaves after this season???

In general, I think KW tends to overpay (I wonder if we could have received Thome straight up for Rowand, or for Rowand and ONE pitching prospect). And while I am too upset with the Garcia trade, it seems as if he could have received a heck of a lot more in return (which gives some color to the salary dump theory).

(To be fair to KW, he received Garcia for Jeremy Reed, Olivo and Mike Morse--which was an absolute steal; at the time, many SABR-metrically inclined types (of which I count myself) blasted the move: see, e.g.:http://www.hardballtimes.com/main/article/garcia-to-the-white-sox/).

In any event, he's a good GM, but not without his flaws.

Frontman
12-13-2006, 06:25 PM
And here I'm wondering how Hendry is ranked anywhere higher than 25.....

KW #1.

whitesoxwilkes
12-13-2006, 07:09 PM
I voted:

Williams (I'm a homer)
Ryan
Schuerholz
Jocketty
Shapiro

Daver
12-13-2006, 07:29 PM
Terry Ryan is easily the best GM in all of MLB.

santo=dorf
12-13-2006, 07:43 PM
Terry Ryan is easily the best GM in all of MLB.
How so? Last offseason he signed Rondell White, Juan Castro, and Tony Bautista (blocking Bartlett) when EVERYBODY knew they were going to be a complete waste of cash. He also tendered Loshe a contract prevent Liraino or Boof being in the rotation in the beginning of the year. The Twins didn't take off until they dumped Castro, Tony, and Loshe.
Hunter certainly isn't worth $12 million, Stewart stole $18 million from the Twins after an impressive run with them in 2003.

No doubt he's a good/great GM, but he is far from being "easily" the best GM. I haven't seen Jocketty's name mentioned much.

Worst (in no order) Dave Littlebrain, Wayne Kirzsky, Bill Basavi, Epstein (hasn't made a good trade since Schilling 3 years ago,) Sabean, and Bowden.

23Ventura
12-13-2006, 08:32 PM
I voted:

Williams (I'm a homer)
Ryan
Schuerholz
Jocketty
Shapiro
My top 5 is exactly the same, but I had Schuerholz #2 and Ryan #3.

caulfield12
12-13-2006, 09:47 PM
I believe Thomas was a type-A free agent. He probably would have agreed to arbitration, so we can let KW off the hook on that.

But I do not understand not offering arbitration to Riske. He certainly is better than or as good as any of the current candidates for long relief (i.e., Haegar and Tracy). He also had some trade value. And given the current insane free agent market, the odds were he might have not opted for arbitration, and instead tested the free agent market. In any event, not offering him salary arbitration results in our losing more draft picks.

As Cheat points out, offering arbitration to Colon and Gordon resulted in sandwich comp picks Lumsden and Gio Gonzalez, which in turn were pieces used by KW in acquiring Thome and MacDougal. http://southsidesox.com/story/2006/12/2/23515/9555

As I stated before, I also think KW made a huge mistake in trading away Chris Young for Vazquez. Ugh. How would Young look right now as an option in CF of LF??? And as a potential replacement for Dye once he leaves after this season???

In general, I think KW tends to overpay (I wonder if we could have received Thome straight up for Rowand, or for Rowand and ONE pitching prospect). And while I am too upset with the Garcia trade, it seems as if he could have received a heck of a lot more in return (which gives some color to the salary dump theory).

(To be fair to KW, he received Garcia for Jeremy Reed, Olivo and Mike Morse--which was an absolute steal; at the time, many SABR-metrically inclined types (of which I count myself) blasted the move: see, e.g.:http://www.hardballtimes.com/main/article/garcia-to-the-white-sox/).

In any event, he's a good GM, but not without his flaws.

We knew Gordon and Colon were going elsewhere, that's simply not the case with Riske. Why would the Red Sox give him to us for Javier Lopez, c'mon...he's just not perceived to be the same reliever he was 2-3 seasons ago.

What if we end up stuck with him, and he performs like Politte and Cotts? Then we not only have bullpen problems, we have to suffer 2-3 losses or dump his salary, meaning we have even less flexibility.

We didn't overpay for Thome, we gave up a CF in Rowand that KW thought was ideally a 4th outfielder and replaced him with a player (BA) that KW felt would outproduce Rowand for a fraction of the cost...and we got all that money back from the Phillies.

If we didn't ask for the money, we wouldn't have been forced to trade Gio or Rowand in the first place, they would have been happy to have us just take on the 3 remaining years of salary and replaced him with Ryan Howard.

Besides Vazquez, there's simply no examples since the Ritchie deal where we seriously overpaid, except for losing Foulke, but that was because Manuel put KW in an akward position by mismanaging a player off the team.

goon
12-13-2006, 11:45 PM
In general, I think KW tends to overpay (I wonder if we could have received Thome straight up for Rowand, or for Rowand and ONE pitching prospect). And while I am too upset with the Garcia trade, it seems as if he could have received a heck of a lot more in return (which gives some color to the salary dump theory).


no way in hell we get thome for rowand, straight up. you would have to be a mental case to take that deal if you're the phillies.

Mohoney
12-14-2006, 05:02 AM
I ranked them all, but I can't remember the exact order, so I'll post my top 5:

1. KW
2. Ryan
3. Schuerholtz
4. Shapiro
5. Stoneman

caulfield12
12-14-2006, 11:22 AM
Stoneman holds/has held onto his position prospects WAY too long and is unwilling to trade them for a big bat.

See Kotchmann and McPherson.

They should have kept Glaus.

Flight #24
12-14-2006, 11:43 AM
How so? Last offseason he signed Rondell White, Juan Castro, and Tony Bautista (blocking Bartlett) when EVERYBODY knew they were going to be a complete waste of cash. He also tendered Loshe a contract prevent Liraino or Boof being in the rotation in the beginning of the year. The Twins didn't take off until they dumped Castro, Tony, and Loshe.
Hunter certainly isn't worth $12 million, Stewart stole $18 million from the Twins after an impressive run with them in 2003.


Most of the guys you mention were true fliers: low cost/risk shots at seeing if something worked. His philosophy of keeping pitchers in the minors until absolutely sure they were ready is also a part of the Twins success and constant churning out of good-looking rookie SPs, so the whole "Lohse blocking" theory goes out the window.

No GM is perfect, but looking at what he's been able to do with a severely limited budget, I have to put Ryan at the top of the list. Not his fault that he's been so revenue-limited.

IMO, the top 4 are in no particular order: Ryan, Williams, Schuerholz, Jocketty. Then there's a tier of guys who are good, but who I think are definitely below the first set: Beane, Stoneman, Loria's Marlin GM, Alderson. I might add in the Brewers guy since that team has been pretty solidly run the past few years and is on the rise.

Somewhere mixed in are guys who've done a solid job and would ordinarily be in group #2 above, but who have the huge revenue base that make it tough to tell if they really deserve it: Epstein, Cashman, Minaya.

The worst: Ricciardi, the Pirates guy, the Rockies guy, the Rangers guy, Sabean (although he's somewhat hamstrung by Bonds). Hendry's not in the horrible group, but he's below average.

caulfield12
12-14-2006, 11:50 AM
Most of the guys you mention were true fliers: low cost/risk shots at seeing if something worked. His philosophy of keeping pitchers in the minors until absolutely sure they were ready is also a part of the Twins success and constant churning out of good-looking rookie SPs, so the whole "Lohse blocking" theory goes out the window.

No GM is perfect, but looking at what he's been able to do with a severely limited budget, I have to put Ryan at the top of the list. Not his fault that he's been so revenue-limited.

IMO, the top 4 are in no particular order: Ryan, Williams, Schuerholz, Jocketty. Then there's a tier of guys who are good, but who I think are definitely below the first set: Beane, Stoneman, Loria's Marlin GM, Alderson. I might add in the Brewers guy since that team has been pretty solidly run the past few years and is on the rise.

Somewhere mixed in are guys who've done a solid job and would ordinarily be in group #2 above, but who have the huge revenue base that make it tough to tell if they really deserve it: Epstein, Cashman, Minaya.

The worst: Ricciardi, the Pirates guy, the Rockies guy, the Rangers guy, Sabean (although he's somewhat hamstrung by Bonds). Hendry's not in the horrible group, but he's below average.


Littlefield, Dean Taylor, Jon Daniels

The Twins haven't produced any stud pitchers for their rotation since Radke.

They have done a GREAT job of identifying talent in other organizations that were near major league ready...Silva, Lohse, Liriano, Santana, Bonser.

And they've done a good job find the right "low-profile" veterans to add to the mix, like Shannon Stewart, Castillo and Kenny Rogers.

We'll see how well Garza and Scott Baker do. If nothing else, their drafting philosophy has led to one of the best bullpens in baseball.

ma-gaga
12-14-2006, 03:49 PM
IMO, the top 4 are in no particular order: Ryan, Williams, Schuerholz, Jocketty. Then there's a tier of guys who are good, but who I think are definitely below the first set: Beane, Stoneman, Loria's Marlin GM, Alderson. I might add in the Brewers guy since that team has been pretty solidly run the past few years and is on the rise.

Somewhere mixed in are guys who've done a solid job and would ordinarily be in group #2 above, but who have the huge revenue base that make it tough to tell if they really deserve it: Epstein, Cashman, Minaya.

The worst: Ricciardi, the Pirates guy, the Rockies guy, the Rangers guy, Sabean (although he's somewhat hamstrung by Bonds). Hendry's not in the horrible group, but he's below average.

:thumbsup: That is pretty much exactly how I voted. I put Bowden in there as a bad GM for the Guzman signing, and the Church demotion, but he's made some nifty little upgrades in the last couple of months, so I'm starting to regret that one.

I agree, having a $100mm payroll and winning 90 games is nothing special, and average at best. I gave Cashman a little credit for winning several World Series. The Mets guy for identifying the premier FA talent... (oh wait, did he trade Kazmir? Or was that still Phillips?) The guys I had a problem ranking was the 2 or 3 NEW managers out there. I really have no idea how good the Ranger or KC manager is going to be, they've been on the job for less than 2 years.

KC dropped a wad on Meche which is a bad indication, but they've made a half dozen minor nice little pickups before that. I can't think of one move the Ranger guy has made. Trading away Cordero for Carlos Lee wasn't too bad of a move, but ultimately he gave up talent for a three month rental.

The other "new" manager is Krivisky, and his trades have been really bad. Basically trading for washed up Twins. We'll see how he approaches his drafts, it's really hard to rate him yet.

soxfanreggie
12-14-2006, 08:22 PM
With what Cashman spends the Yanks money on, he should be in the bottom 5. Huge contracts to Giambi, Brown (assuming this one from LA), Randy Johnson, Mussina, etc., etc. You may have gotten one or two decent-good seasons out of any one of them, but you're on the hook for many millions after they start sliding.