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bigredrudy
12-12-2006, 07:47 PM
Not much I would guess. 13 of the AL teams have either signed free agents or submitted the highest bid and therefore can negotiate with a free agent. The only team that has not done this in the AL is the white Sox. People talk about trading for Baldelli, Crawford, Young etc These are pipe dreams. The Sox cannot make trades of this type because they just don.t have the players they could give up. KW made great bargain deals in 2005 for AJ,
JD and iguchi Those bargains are not out there anymore. All of the AL teams have improved themselves. The Sox seem content to stand pat. Yes the Sox won 90 games last year but a lot of their players had career years.
When KW indicated that he might move starters to get young this seemed a reasonable thing to do given the state of the White Sox farm system and the many contracts that were coming to an end. But when he had the chance to make a deal with Houston he backed off. Some people say he will trade another starter. I submit to you that the Houston deal will be the best deal he could have gotten. The goal of KW was to improve the Sox in several areas but he has done nothing to do so. I think he thinks his players are better than what they are. It would not surprise me if the Sox finished 4th next year. And then there will be rebuilding.

daslobo
12-12-2006, 07:55 PM
I believe there are trades to be made and I believe Kenny will make some. I like his off the radar style. So many of the trades and signings out there are just flavors of the month. There are real values out there, they just won't be had until the hysteria dies down.

Sit back relax and strap it down. More to come this offseason.

likeawarlord
12-12-2006, 08:01 PM
dye had a career year, as did crede (although he has a pretty good shot at replicating his numbers)...and..... i'm not sure who else you're talking about. i think overall the team underperformed to a huge extent (come on, the starting rotation), and that it's unfair to say they played over their heads.

ondafarm
12-12-2006, 08:01 PM
. . . The Sox seem content to stand pat. Yes the Sox won 90 games last year but a lot of their players had career years. . . It would not surprise me if the Sox finished 4th next year. And then there will be rebuilding.


Well you definately get the Doom & Gloom award of the day.

I think several Sox players had the worst year of their careers in 2006 not career years. Only one guy, JD, had a career year.

Fourth? I hope you mean wrap the ALCD up by the Fourth of July because the Sox still have the best pitching in the ALCD and one of the best offensive lineups in baseball providing that Pods bounces back and Anderson and Uribe improve.

SABRSox
12-12-2006, 08:09 PM
:prozac

Though I'm not sure 20mg is enough for you bigred...

PicktoCLick72
12-12-2006, 08:09 PM
I really think some users here on the site should go into hibernation during the offseason so both the doom and gloom posts and the ridiculous trade proposals will end.

caulfield12
12-12-2006, 08:55 PM
This is ridiculous.

Because we all are sure Taveras would be our starting CF over Anderson (forgetting we already have Pods signed) and that Hirsch so OBVIOUSLY is going to have a much better career than either Gio or Floyd...

What does this have to do with THIS season? We've changed Garcia for McCarthy, which, most agreed, was the most likely move of the off-season.

We have the ability to be flexible with our payroll and adjust on the run, as KW usually does each season in June and July.

I don't like the fact that our bullpen picture is cloudy, we still have no back-up for Anderson (beyond Sweeney and Owens) and no back-up catcher. But it's not March 1st either.

delben91
12-12-2006, 09:00 PM
This is ridiculous.

Because we all are sure Taveras would be our starting CF over Anderson (forgetting we already have Pods signed) and that Hirsch so OBVIOUSLY is going to have a much better career than either Gio or Floyd...

What does this have to do with THIS season? We've changed Garcia for McCarthy, which, most agreed, was the most likely move of the off-season.

We have the ability to be flexible with our payroll and adjust on the run, as KW usually does each season in June and July.

I don't like the fact that our bullpen picture is cloudy, we still have no back-up for Anderson (beyond Sweeney and Owens) and no back-up catcher. But it's not March 1st either.

See, your problem is that your arguments rely heavily on logic. We don't use any of that in "What's the Score?"

Frater Perdurabo
12-12-2006, 09:15 PM
I understand that pessimism can be a defensible position. But the first post of this thread doesn't logically defend pessimisn, but rather gives Dark Clouding and Pants Pissing a bad name. May I suggest these (http://michaellenington.typepad.com/imho___resox_politics_obs/images/depends.jpg).

http://www.newmoanyeah.com/images/2003/other/depends.jpg

santo=dorf
12-12-2006, 09:17 PM
Say, what happened the last time Bigredrudy thought the White Sox could finish 4th in the division?

Oh yeah http://mlb.mlb.com/images/2005/10/27/YdEPl8y6.jpg

Yes I think the Sox could finish 4th in their division. With the addition of Ordonez the Tigers have a fearsome lineup. Thus both Cleveland and Detroit have better offenses than the Sox and, of course the Twins are the Twins.I think the Sox could easily finish below .500. It would not astound me if the Sox finish at say 78 wins and 84 losses. It should all be very interesting though- Ozzie Ball with stolen bases and sacrifice bunts against on base percentage and slugging percentage. The Yankees and Red Sox seem to favor the latter but Ozzie says he can win doing it his way. Myself I would have favored keeping our sluggers and adding one great pitcher to the mix. We needed to add rather than subtract. But, of course, the money was not there. I would pose this question to the board members. What if the Sox say finish below .500 would you still be in favor of retaining Guillen and KW. I would be interested in your responses.

RUDY! RUDY! RUDY! RUDY!

maurice
12-12-2006, 09:17 PM
Hirsch so OBVIOUSLY is going to have a much better career than either Gio or Floyd...

:D:
If the Rox and Phils switched positions, we'd have to deal with at least some posts claiming that one of Gio / Floyd OBVIOUSLY is going to have a much better career than Hirsch. The grass is always greener...

Daver
12-12-2006, 09:35 PM
See, your problem is that your arguments rely heavily on logic. We don't use any of that in "What's the Score?"

That is not a true statement, Jerry Owens is not a center fielder by anyones definition.

WizardsofOzzie
12-12-2006, 09:59 PM
Bigredrudy has never been anything but gloom and doom

:darkclouds:

1917
12-12-2006, 11:12 PM
Say, what happened the last time Bigredrudy thought the White Sox could finish 4th in the division?

Oh yeah http://mlb.mlb.com/images/2005/10/27/YdEPl8y6.jpg



RUDY! RUDY! RUDY! RUDY!

How the hell did you remember a post frpm 2 years ago?

santo=dorf
12-12-2006, 11:32 PM
How the hell did you remember a post frpm 2 years ago?
Because an insanely stupid post from a 70+ year old that ends up in the Roadhouse just sticks with you. :wink:

ondafarm
12-12-2006, 11:56 PM
I remember that thread. It was split off from a thread I'd started about how the Baseball Savant was picking the 2005 Sox for fourth or fifth.

Joosh
12-13-2006, 12:21 AM
3rd place.

I'm sorry, but I'm just not confident that we can contend with what we're putting out there. As far as I'm concerned, we haven't improved the team from last year and we aren't going anywhere.

However, I trusted Kenny after 2004, and I was not mislead. I'm going to hold off on a more harsh judgement until Spring Training rolls around.

oeo
12-13-2006, 12:49 AM
Not much I would guess. 13 of the AL teams have either signed free agents or submitted the highest bid and therefore can negotiate with a free agent. The only team that has not done this in the AL is the white Sox. People talk about trading for Baldelli, Crawford, Young etc These are pipe dreams. The Sox cannot make trades of this type because they just don.t have the players they could give up. KW made great bargain deals in 2005 for AJ,
JD and iguchi Those bargains are not out there anymore. All of the AL teams have improved themselves. The Sox seem content to stand pat. Yes the Sox won 90 games last year but a lot of their players had career years.
When KW indicated that he might move starters to get young this seemed a reasonable thing to do given the state of the White Sox farm system and the many contracts that were coming to an end. But when he had the chance to make a deal with Houston he backed off. Some people say he will trade another starter. I submit to you that the Houston deal will be the best deal he could have gotten. The goal of KW was to improve the Sox in several areas but he has done nothing to do so. I think he thinks his players are better than what they are. It would not surprise me if the Sox finished 4th next year. And then there will be rebuilding.

2007 World Championship? :dunno:

If I knew, they'd call me Miss Cleo.

oeo
12-13-2006, 12:52 AM
3rd place.

I'm sorry, but I'm just not confident that we can contend with what we're putting out there. As far as I'm concerned, we haven't improved the team from last year and we aren't going anywhere.

However, I trusted Kenny after 2004, and I was not mislead. I'm going to hold off on a more harsh judgement until Spring Training rolls around.

So, essentially what you're saying is you were not confident going into last year, either? This is the same ****ing team, with a better bullpen going in (and yes, no matter how you look at it, this is true). They underachieved their way to 90 wins. If Buehrle has a career normal year, they win the division, if the bullpen doesn't implode, they win the division. This team definately has what it takes to win the division.

Detroit and Minnesota are probably rated higher around here than they are by their own fans. The Sox are better than both of those teams.

spiffie
12-13-2006, 01:17 AM
So, essentially what you're saying is you were not confident going into last year, either? This is the same ****ing team, with a better bullpen going in (and yes, no matter how you look at it, this is true). They underachieved their way to 90 wins. If Buehrle has a career normal year, they win the division, if the bullpen doesn't implode, they win the division. This team definately has what it takes to win the division.

Detroit and Minnesota are probably rated higher around here than they are by their own fans. The Sox are better than both of those teams.
The problem is that there is only one person who it seems reasonable to expect substantial improvement from, and that's Buehrle. On the other hand it seems pretty safe to assume a decline from Dye (if he puts up numbers like last year I will be happily amazed, and I suspect so would Kenny and Ozzie), and its likely that Thome will decline with a reasonable chance of Pierzynski not matching last year. That doesn't even mention that Crede might be a one year wonder. I agree the pen seems stronger right now, but really, it's still only 3 arms deep. Until he got traded here I doubt anyone would have thought too highly of Aardsma, Floyd is a massive project, and the sixth spot is totally up for grabs.

It's hard for me right now to look at this team and expect them to end up better than last season. Yes, Buehrle should do better. But Contreras and Garland both were at or above career norms, McCarthy is a rookie who has had a handful of starts, and Vazquez may or may not have recovered from his crippling case of hexaphobia. I love the Jenks/MacDougal/Thornton combo in the pen, but beyond that it's still pretty blank. And we still have 1/3 of the lineup which is likely to give us below average production.

Of course, all of this could look totally silly in October 2007. Aardsma, Floyd and Haeger could solidify a lockdown bullpen, Anderson could start to hit well, Podsednik steal 70 bases and Uribe play like he did in 2004, while all 5 starters go 200 innings with a 3.50 ERA. I sure hope it does, because really, I grew to dread going to the park by the end of last season as it became a wait to see how they would screw up that day. It was not much fun. Hopefully next year will be more fun, but I'm not exactly convinced. But hey, I've been wrong before.

ondafarm
12-13-2006, 01:39 AM
It's hard for me right now to look at this team and expect them to end up better than last season. Yes, Buehrle should do better. But Contreras and Garland both were at or above career norms, McCarthy is a rookie who has had a handful of starts, and Vazquez may or may not have recovered from his crippling case of hexaphobia. I love the Jenks/MacDougal/Thornton combo in the pen, but beyond that it's still pretty blank. And we still have 1/3 of the lineup which is likely to give us below average production..

Buehrle should be better, Contreras should be better, Garland should be more consistent, McCarthy should do much better starting not in relief and Vazquez should be better.

Pods should have a better year, Iguchi should have a better year. Konerko should have a better year. Thome will get a little more time off and be better. Dye/ Crede should have solid seasons. AJ will do better with a better backup. BA and Uribe should be more constent.

If the White Sox are five games better, then the Sox should win the division. The Twins will have pitching problems as will the Tigers and Cleveland should pull a Cleveland. KC. Yeah, well.

SBSoxFan
12-13-2006, 01:39 AM
The problem is that there is only one person who it seems reasonable to expect substantial improvement from, and that's Buehrle. On the other hand it seems pretty safe to assume a decline from Dye (if he puts up numbers like last year I will be happily amazed, and I suspect so would Kenny and Ozzie), and its likely that Thome will decline with a reasonable chance of Pierzynski not matching last year. That doesn't even mention that Crede might be a one year wonder. I agree the pen seems stronger right now, but really, it's still only 3 arms deep. Until he got traded here I doubt anyone would have thought too highly of Aardsma, Floyd is a massive project, and the sixth spot is totally up for grabs.

It's hard for me right now to look at this team and expect them to end up better than last season. Yes, Buehrle should do better. But Contreras and Garland both were at or above career norms, McCarthy is a rookie who has had a handful of starts, and Vazquez may or may not have recovered from his crippling case of hexaphobia. I love the Jenks/MacDougal/Thornton combo in the pen, but beyond that it's still pretty blank. And we still have 1/3 of the lineup which is likely to give us below average production.

Of course, all of this could look totally silly in October 2007. Aardsma, Floyd and Haeger could solidify a lockdown bullpen, Anderson could start to hit well, Podsednik steal 70 bases and Uribe play like he did in 2004, while all 5 starters go 200 innings with a 3.50 ERA. I sure hope it does, because really, I grew to dread going to the park by the end of last season as it became a wait to see how they would screw up that day. It was not much fun. Hopefully next year will be more fun, but I'm not exactly convinced. But hey, I've been wrong before.

Thome had a weak second half. I suspect after getting back to full time last year he wore out. He'll be in better shape to last an entire season this year.

Contreras, Buehrle, and Vazquez will be better on the mound, Pods and Anderson will be better at the plate, and Uribe's defense will return to circa 2004.

oeo
12-13-2006, 01:48 AM
Buehrle should be better, Contreras should be better, Garland should be more consistent, McCarthy should do much better starting not in relief and Vazquez should be better.

Pods should have a better year, Iguchi should have a better year. Konerko should have a better year. Thome will get a little more time off and be better. Dye/ Crede should have solid seasons. AJ will do better with a better backup. BA and Uribe should be more constent.

If the White Sox are five games better, then the Sox should win the division. The Twins will have pitching problems as will the Tigers and Cleveland should pull a Cleveland. KC. Yeah, well.

Agreed on all points. For some reason people think that the Twins and Tigers are two of the best teams to ever bless planet Earth. The Twins are going to be in a world of hurt without Radke and Liriano...the Tigers pitching staff pitched way over their heads (Nate Robertson? *****...you don't just "find it" at 30). People are overrating this division, it's not the toughest division of all time; it's actually pretty average.

BeviBall!
12-13-2006, 09:56 AM
As it stands today -- an ALDS exit. By the time Williams is done -- ALCS and beyond.

mccoydp
12-13-2006, 10:29 AM
What's next for our Sox? Wee Willie Harris comes back as utility man. Bank on it. :redneck

oeo
12-13-2006, 10:34 AM
As it stands today -- an ALDS exit. By the time Williams is done -- ALCS and beyond.

Against who?

I don't get that...there is not a dominant team in MLB right now. The Sox can match up against any team, so I don't get how you can predict an ALDS exit, or for some, a third/fourth place finish.

What's next for our Sox? Wee Willie Harris comes back as utility man. Bank on it. :redneck

Willie signed a minor league deal with the Braves, so we're doomed.

mccoydp
12-13-2006, 11:04 AM
Against who?

I don't get that...there is not a dominant team in MLB right now. The Sox can match up against any team, so I don't get how you can predict an ALDS exit, or for some, a third/fourth place finish.



Willie signed a minor league deal with the Braves, so we're doomed.

I wish I had that picture someone posted a while back with Wee Willy sliding into some base, with that huge helmet on his head...he looked like a little kid.

spiffie
12-13-2006, 11:05 AM
Buehrle should be better, Contreras should be better, Garland should be more consistent, McCarthy should do much better starting not in relief and Vazquez should be better.

Pods should have a better year, Iguchi should have a better year. Konerko should have a better year. Thome will get a little more time off and be better. Dye/ Crede should have solid seasons. AJ will do better with a better backup. BA and Uribe should be more constent.

If the White Sox are five games better, then the Sox should win the division. The Twins will have pitching problems as will the Tigers and Cleveland should pull a Cleveland. KC. Yeah, well.
- Buehrle should be better. I'll grant you that. It is more likely last year was an aberration than that it was his new norm. At least I sure as hell hope so. If he's not better this team is in big trouble.
- Contreras...why should he be better? He's had a few good months and is in his mid-30's. I think to automatically assume that he will return to unhittable form post-injury is overly optimistic.
- Garland I expect to settle in somewhere between 2005 and 2006. So a mild improvement from last year is possible.
- McCarthy may do better than last year, but will he do better than Garcia's performance? We have no idea what will happen to him over the course of 32 starts. Right now he is the big question mark. If he pitches the entire season the way he did in his handful of starts at the end of 2005, we're in a very good position. If he pitches like he did last year, we're in trouble.
- Vazquez has been argued to death. I don't foresee him all of a sudden snapping back into 2001-2003 form in his fourth season since he was an all-star caliber pitcher. You and others figure it just takes some time for the Don Cooper Experience to make him into an ace. At this point arguing about Vazquez is like arguing about abortion...no one will ever change the other person's mind no matter what side they're on.

- Podsednik, for all your confidence in him has not looked good since August of 2005 except for one month in 2006. If Pods was not in the organization no one here would want us to pick him up, and would ridicule whatever team did since they'd be getting a speed guy who can't run and has no other real skills. And I'm just not able to buy into the whole "it's an odd numbered year so Pods must do good this year!" nonsense.
- Why should we expect a better year from Iguchi? He's had 2 major league seasons. Both of them he's had almost exactly the same numbers. He's basically settled in as a 280/345/430 guy. If anything I feel safe in the idea he's not likely to drop next year.
- Konerko is what we thought he is, as Dennis Green might say. I would expect Paulie to give us around the same production as he did last year. Considering his OPS was nearly 100 points above his career average, and his career high by 30 points, I would not expect much improvement. For him to go much higher he would have to get into the Manny Ramirez level which seems unlikely at this point.
- Thome I would be happy with simply replicating last year's numbers. He was insanely hot last year for the first couple months. Even falling off some it was his highest OPS since 2002. If he can keep his OPS at 1.012 like last year I'd be ecstatic considering he'll be turning 37 this year.
- Dye will almost certainly fall off this season. If he gives us a year somewhere in the neighborhood of his 2000 season I'd be overjoyed (321/390/561). Crede I suppose has room to grow, but also room to fall. Look at Morgan Ensberg, who looked like he broke through in 2005, and fell apart in 2006. For Crede I'd say if he does what he did last year we should be happy.
- AJ was pretty much right around his career norms last year. He went 295/333/436. His career avg is 288/331/434. He might improve slightly, he might regress slightly, but i'd say you can pencil him in for an OPS somewhere between 750-780.
- Anderson is another huge question mark. Is he another in the line of OF flops? Will he get it together? I grant he has more room to improve than anyone else listed. But he also has more potential to fail than anyone else. But to simply state "he will be better" seems a tough statement to back up.
- Uribe has had one good year in his entire career. One. Even if he makes it back up to his career norms, he's still below average. Over his entire career his OBP is less than .300. That's freaking awful. Even worse is that he has regressed each of the last two years. If he had been steadily improving in any way you could be more inclined to give him the benefit of the doubt. Instead he's gotten worse at the plate, his defense fell off, and he's shown a lack of interest in improving himself physically. Why should I expect anything more from Juan Uribe?

White Sox Randy
12-13-2006, 11:19 AM
I think that Kenny has been doing things backwards this offseason.

He shouldn't have rushed into the big moves like trading Garcia and trying to trade Garland. He should have been more patient and waited for a few teams to become desperate and overpay.

He should have been taking care of the smaller things like signing a couple of veteran relief pitchers and a viable backup catcher.

Now, he's already played his major card in trading his extra starting pitcher. Most of the quality free agents have signed elsewhere.

This is what I expect - if he can get Alomar to sign for less than the league minimum then he's the backup.

He'll invite 17 pitchers that no one wanted to camp to tryout for the last bullpen spot and he'll end up giving the job to Boone Logan.

After the first month when Floyd, Aardsma and or Logan suck then he'll go back through the pile of 17 and try a couple of them.

When they don't pan out, he'll make some trades near the deadline and pick up a legitimate reliever or two.

By then, the Sox will have fallen to second or third place and they will miss the playoffs.....oh sorry....I was having a flashback....that was last year.....

Ol' No. 2
12-13-2006, 11:40 AM
- Buehrle should be better. I'll grant you that. It is more likely last year was an aberration than that it was his new norm. At least I sure as hell hope so. If he's not better this team is in big trouble.
- Contreras...why should he be better? He's had a few good months and is in his mid-30's. I think to automatically assume that he will return to unhittable form post-injury is overly optimistic.
- Garland I expect to settle in somewhere between 2005 and 2006. So a mild improvement from last year is possible.
- McCarthy may do better than last year, but will he do better than Garcia's performance? We have no idea what will happen to him over the course of 32 starts. Right now he is the big question mark. If he pitches the entire season the way he did in his handful of starts at the end of 2005, we're in a very good position. If he pitches like he did last year, we're in trouble.
- Vazquez has been argued to death. I don't foresee him all of a sudden snapping back into 2001-2003 form in his fourth season since he was an all-star caliber pitcher. You and others figure it just takes some time for the Don Cooper Experience to make him into an ace. At this point arguing about Vazquez is like arguing about abortion...no one will ever change the other person's mind no matter what side they're on.

- Podsednik, for all your confidence in him has not looked good since August of 2005 except for one month in 2006. If Pods was not in the organization no one here would want us to pick him up, and would ridicule whatever team did since they'd be getting a speed guy who can't run and has no other real skills. And I'm just not able to buy into the whole "it's an odd numbered year so Pods must do good this year!" nonsense.
- Why should we expect a better year from Iguchi? He's had 2 major league seasons. Both of them he's had almost exactly the same numbers. He's basically settled in as a 280/345/430 guy. If anything I feel safe in the idea he's not likely to drop next year.
- Konerko is what we thought he is, as Dennis Green might say. I would expect Paulie to give us around the same production as he did last year. Considering his OPS was nearly 100 points above his career average, and his career high by 30 points, I would not expect much improvement. For him to go much higher he would have to get into the Manny Ramirez level which seems unlikely at this point.
- Thome I would be happy with simply replicating last year's numbers. He was insanely hot last year for the first couple months. Even falling off some it was his highest OPS since 2002. If he can keep his OPS at 1.012 like last year I'd be ecstatic considering he'll be turning 37 this year.
- Dye will almost certainly fall off this season. If he gives us a year somewhere in the neighborhood of his 2000 season I'd be overjoyed (321/390/561). Crede I suppose has room to grow, but also room to fall. Look at Morgan Ensberg, who looked like he broke through in 2005, and fell apart in 2006. For Crede I'd say if he does what he did last year we should be happy.
- AJ was pretty much right around his career norms last year. He went 295/333/436. His career avg is 288/331/434. He might improve slightly, he might regress slightly, but i'd say you can pencil him in for an OPS somewhere between 750-780.
- Anderson is another huge question mark. Is he another in the line of OF flops? Will he get it together? I grant he has more room to improve than anyone else listed. But he also has more potential to fail than anyone else. But to simply state "he will be better" seems a tough statement to back up.
- Uribe has had one good year in his entire career. One. Even if he makes it back up to his career norms, he's still below average. Over his entire career his OBP is less than .300. That's freaking awful. Even worse is that he has regressed each of the last two years. If he had been steadily improving in any way you could be more inclined to give him the benefit of the doubt. Instead he's gotten worse at the plate, his defense fell off, and he's shown a lack of interest in improving himself physically. Why should I expect anything more from Juan Uribe?I'll agree with you pretty much down the line with a few exceptions.

I was pretty underwhelmed by Garcia last year. He turned it on in September after it was too late, but when they needed someone in June-August he disappeared. And his complete indifference to runners on base doesn't readily show up in the stats, but it cost them. I think it's pretty likely McCarthy can do better. My only concern is if he can hold up to 200+ IP. The kid's still a stick.

I have a lot of confidence in Vazquez, but I agree there's no point in beating that horse any more. There's only one person that can convince the doubters and that's Javy Vazquez.

Podsednik had a below-average year last year, even by his own standards, so it's reasonable to expect him to improve somewhat. That's not to say he'll be Kenny Lofton in his prime, but at least better than last year.

Uribe: See Pods above. He should improve marginally on last year's numbers.

The Sox weren't exactly a bad team last year. They did win 90 games. They don't need a huge improvement - just a handful of small ones will get them over the top, assuming, of course, that they don't simultaneuously regress in other areas.

Chipol
12-13-2006, 02:22 PM
... if he can get Alomar to sign for less than the league minimum then he's the backup...



How can Alomar sign for less than the minimum? Isn't the minimum as low as you can go?:D:

caulfield12
12-13-2006, 03:04 PM
The problem is that there is only one person who it seems reasonable to expect substantial improvement from, and that's Buehrle. On the other hand it seems pretty safe to assume a decline from Dye (if he puts up numbers like last year I will be happily amazed, and I suspect so would Kenny and Ozzie), and its likely that Thome will decline with a reasonable chance of Pierzynski not matching last year. That doesn't even mention that Crede might be a one year wonder. I agree the pen seems stronger right now, but really, it's still only 3 arms deep. Until he got traded here I doubt anyone would have thought too highly of Aardsma, Floyd is a massive project, and the sixth spot is totally up for grabs.

It's hard for me right now to look at this team and expect them to end up better than last season. Yes, Buehrle should do better. But Contreras and Garland both were at or above career norms, McCarthy is a rookie who has had a handful of starts, and Vazquez may or may not have recovered from his crippling case of hexaphobia. I love the Jenks/MacDougal/Thornton combo in the pen, but beyond that it's still pretty blank. And we still have 1/3 of the lineup which is likely to give us below average production.

Of course, all of this could look totally silly in October 2007. Aardsma, Floyd and Haeger could solidify a lockdown bullpen, Anderson could start to hit well, Podsednik steal 70 bases and Uribe play like he did in 2004, while all 5 starters go 200 innings with a 3.50 ERA. I sure hope it does, because really, I grew to dread going to the park by the end of last season as it became a wait to see how they would screw up that day. It was not much fun. Hopefully next year will be more fun, but I'm not exactly convinced. But hey, I've been wrong before.

If you don't expect more out of a healthy and revitalized Contreras (second half 05, playoffs and first two months of 06), when he was arguably the best pitcher in baseball, then we are in trouble.

I expect a 3.50 ERA and the old Jose, same with Mark, 4.00 ERA or below, MUCH better H/IP ratio.

caulfield12
12-13-2006, 03:06 PM
That is not a true statement, Jerry Owens is not a center fielder by anyones definition.

But, he's better than Mackowiak.

He looked decent from what I saw in the Minnesota series. No, he doesn't have an arm, and I don't want to see him getting 300 AB's in a season in place of Anderson (that means serious trouble), but I can't say that he's twice as good as Sweeney either, who's not a natural MLB CFer either.

TDog
12-13-2006, 03:10 PM
...
I think several Sox players had the worst year of their careers in 2006 not career years. Only one guy, JD, had a career year. ...

You know when someone has had a career year when his career is over and you look back at it. I know Podsednik didn't have what will be considered his career year. I would say the same for Thome, Buehrle, Konerko and McCarthy. I hope Anderson didn't have his career year. Although unlikely, it's possible he did. You don't hear many Tigers fans complaining that they couldn't win the World Series with Verlander having a career year, just as you didn't have many Cubs fans whining before the 2004 season that at least 80 percent of their starting rotation had already turned in their career years. As I recall, many "experts" forecast the Cubs would win more than 100 games in 2004 because they were "armed and dangerous."

Sign overpriced free agents with the promise of Herculean numbers -- based on what may have been their career years in the past -- and you can get your fans excited. Nobody can get Soriano out this winter because he doesn't have to face the the formidable Cubs rotation and bullpen. The sugar plums Cubs fans are envisioning this Christmas are their blue-clad heroes duplicating their career years through the decade.

Building a winner isn't a matter of spending a lot of money, especially when mediocrity is so expensive. If you want to lament that current players won't perform having turned in career years, consider that Garcia may have had his career year -- or at least his career game at the end of the 2005 postseason. I would hope Floyd has not

caulfield12
12-13-2006, 03:15 PM
You know when someone has had a career year when his career is over and you look back at it. I know Podsednik didn't have what will be considered his career year. I would say the same for Thome, Buehrle, Konerko and McCarthy. I hope Anderson didn't have his career year. Although unlikely, it's possible he did. You don't hear many Tigers fans complaining that they couldn't win the World Series with Verlander having a career year, just as you didn't have many Cubs fans whining before the 2004 season that at least 80 percent of their starting rotation had already turned in their career years. As I recall, many "experts" forecast the Cubs would win more than 100 games in 2004 because they were "armed and dangerous."

Sign overpriced free agents with the promise of Herculean numbers -- based on what may have been their career years in the past -- and you can get your fans excited. Nobody can get Soriano out this winter because he doesn't have to face the the formidable Cubs rotation and bullpen. The sugar plums Cubs fans are envisioning this Christmas are their blue-clad heroes duplicating their career years through the decade.

Building a winner isn't a matter of spending a lot of money, especially when mediocrity is so expensive. If you want to lament that current players won't perform having turned in career years, consider that Garcia may have had his career year -- or at least his career game at the end of the 2005 postseason. I would hope Floyd has not


Thome had a very uneven year, it would be nice to see more balance. He went from 2nd to Pujols over the first three months to Kevin Mench the last three months after the injuries started to catch up to him.

Dye and Crede might be near their career years, and I'm not sure we can expect AJ, Konerko and Iguchi to improve MUCH.

Any major improvement has to come from the pitching staff, Uribe, Pods and Anderson.

soxfan13
12-13-2006, 03:51 PM
You know when someone has had a career year when his career is over and you look back at it. I know Podsednik didn't have what will be considered his career year. I would say the same for Thome, Buehrle, Konerko and McCarthy. I hope Anderson didn't have his career year. Although unlikely, it's possible he did. You don't hear many Tigers fans complaining that they couldn't win the World Series with Verlander having a career year, just as you didn't have many Cubs fans whining before the 2004 season that at least 80 percent of their starting rotation had already turned in their career years. As I recall, many "experts" forecast the Cubs would win more than 100 games in 2004 because they were "armed and dangerous."

Sign overpriced free agents with the promise of Herculean numbers -- based on what may have been their career years in the past -- and you can get your fans excited. Nobody can get Soriano out this winter because he doesn't have to face the the formidable Cubs rotation and bullpen. The sugar plums Cubs fans are envisioning this Christmas are their blue-clad heroes duplicating their career years through the decade.

Building a winner isn't a matter of spending a lot of money, especially when mediocrity is so expensive. If you want to lament that current players won't perform having turned in career years, consider that Garcia may have had his career year -- or at least his career game at the end of the 2005 postseason. I would hope Floyd has not

Or if its his best year to date.

TDog
12-13-2006, 04:02 PM
Thome had a very uneven year, it would be nice to see more balance. He went from 2nd to Pujols over the first three months to Kevin Mench the last three months after the injuries started to catch up to him.

Dye and Crede might be near their career years, and I'm not sure we can expect AJ, Konerko and Iguchi to improve MUCH.

Any major improvement has to come from the pitching staff, Uribe, Pods and Anderson.


It isn't a matter of players putting up great numbers. Ernie Banks had his career years when the Cubs finished last. The Cubs finished third when Derek Lee turned in what could be his career year. Harold Baines only hit .280 in 1983 -- substantially less than the .304 he hit in 1984 when the Sox didn't contend after the All-Star break. But his clutch hitting in 1983 was one of the keys to the three starting pitchers being unbeatable in the second half of the season and turning in what would be considered career years.

The whole "career year" argument demeans professional athletes in their prime. And I find it strange that some of the people who complain about Sox players having already recorded career years would want to sign free agents who are being overpaid based on their apparent career years.

TDog
12-13-2006, 04:06 PM
Or if its his best year to date.

By that definition, Brian Anderson had a career year in 2006. And Brandon McCarthy had a career year in 2005.

Flight #24
12-13-2006, 04:35 PM
Interesting that no one's put this out there, but IMO a big part of the improvement is going to have to come from execution. That's something that Ozzie's on record as saying he's going to focus on. That and hopefully guys being in better shape should help the team do significantly better. The way I see it, MAYBE 1 guy had a career year that he'd decline from (Dye), and even he could be said to only be finally meeting his career expectations now that he's finally healthy.

The rest, including the pitchers, even Konerko/Thome, and especially guys like Pods, Anderson, Uribe should all improve at least slightly. All that added to a 90-win team makes me think this team will end up in the mid-90s, which ought to be good enough for a playoff berth.

Cuck_The_Fubs
12-13-2006, 04:39 PM
JD and iguchi: Those bargains are not out there anymore. All of the AL teams have improved themselves. The Sox seem content to stand pat.
I do believe there is bargains still alive. It's all about timing and what scouts can see that we don't see. In Kenny I Still Trust.

Ol' No. 2
12-13-2006, 04:46 PM
Interesting that no one's put this out there, but IMO a big part of the improvement is going to have to come from execution. That's something that Ozzie's on record as saying he's going to focus on. That and hopefully guys being in better shape should help the team do significantly better. The way I see it, MAYBE 1 guy had a career year that he'd decline from (Dye), and even he could be said to only be finally meeting his career expectations now that he's finally healthy.

The rest, including the pitchers, even Konerko/Thome, and especially guys like Pods, Anderson, Uribe should all improve at least slightly. All that added to a 90-win team makes me think this team will end up in the mid-90s, which ought to be good enough for a playoff berth.Konerko had career highs in pretty much every statistic. It's not as if he's 25 and still improving. I don't see much of a chance of an improvement there. Thome had his best year since 2002, and at age 36, it seems unlikely we'll see anything much better (although maybe more even through the year). Aside from the pitching staff, the only players where a significant improvement seems possible are Anderson, Uribe and Podsednik.

The good news is that there's plenty of room for improvement in the pitching staff and that should be more than enough to get them back to where they belong. If they can get 3 of the 5 starters back to sub 4.0 ERA and the other two around 4.5, they'll be tough to stop.

fusillirob1983
12-13-2006, 04:49 PM
Interesting that no one's put this out there, but IMO a big part of the improvement is going to have to come from execution. That's something that Ozzie's on record as saying he's going to focus on. That and hopefully guys being in better shape should help the team do significantly better. The way I see it, MAYBE 1 guy had a career year that he'd decline from (Dye), and even he could be said to only be finally meeting his career expectations now that he's finally healthy.

The rest, including the pitchers, even Konerko/Thome, and especially guys like Pods, Anderson, Uribe should all improve at least slightly. All that added to a 90-win team makes me think this team will end up in the mid-90s, which ought to be good enough for a playoff berth.

I agree with this for the most part, except I don't see Konerko or Thome producing differently than last year. Thome may be more consistent next season if he gets some rest, but overall he produced numbers that people expected. Konerko was a bit higher than his career batting average, but his HR and RBI were pretty close to expectations.

Hitmen77
12-13-2006, 05:16 PM
All this talk of Dye having a "career year" is misleading. Yes, probably his career best - but it's not like we're expecting him to drop off to being a .250 hitter next year. I expect some consistency from Dye, PK, and Thome. They're not going to be much if any better than last year, but they won't be much worse either. They still will give us a 3-4-5 that is the envy of many teams. Crede - was it really his "career year"? Or has he just come into his own since mid-2005?

As ON2 says, where we can hope for some improvement is from BA, Pods, and Uribe. They are the guys who killed us offensively last year. We need not only more hits, but better execution from them.

....and he's right about the pitching - plenty of upside potential there over last year. That's what this season will come down to - can Buehrle and Contreras rebound from a bad 2006? We'll see about the bullpen - I don't think KW is done making moves to fill the final spots in our pen.

churlish
12-13-2006, 05:28 PM
The Sox failed to make the playoffs because of the pitching staff. The offense was much better in 2006 than the previous year. However, the pitching staff severely underperformed. 3 of the 5 starters were significantly above their career ERAs, and just a return to the mean will equal a bunch more wins.

The bullpen had 3 guys turn in career years in 2005. Unfortunately, they returned to their normal numbers the next year.

Flight #24
12-13-2006, 05:33 PM
Konerko had career highs in pretty much every statistic. It's not as if he's 25 and still improving. I don't see much of a chance of an improvement there. Thome had his best year since 2002, and at age 36, it seems unlikely we'll see anything much better (although maybe more even through the year). Aside from the pitching staff, the only players where a significant improvement seems possible are Anderson, Uribe and Podsednik.

True, I guess I was thinking not so much of improvement in the overall #s, but of more consistency. Without looking at any data, my recollection is that especially Thome, but to some extent Konerko as well went through some ludicrously hot streaks mixed in with extremely cold ones. Which is part of what engendered the "return to 2004" feeling.

Daver
12-13-2006, 05:35 PM
This is what I expect - if he can get Alomar to sign for less than the league minimum then he's the backup.



You've posted some astoundingly stupid things, this ranks right up near the top though.

santo=dorf
12-13-2006, 05:51 PM
I just love the "Freddy pitched well when it was too late excuse." BULL****

To me, the Sox were deflated after the sweep in Oakland. THE SERIES AFTER GARCIA NEARLY THREW A PERFECT GAME.:angry:

Could it have "been too late" for Garcia because Garland had a 7.11 ERA in April and a 5.40 ERA in May? How about Podsednik's .296 OBP in the second half? How about AJ's .292 OBP during the same time period?

WizardsofOzzie
12-13-2006, 06:34 PM
How the hell did you remember a post frpm 2 years ago? I vividly remember most of bigredrudy's posts because it is extremely hard to forget such blatent stupidity. I did one of these when the mods finally banned him for the season :bandance:

3rd place.

I'm sorry, but I'm just not confident that we can contend with what we're putting out there. As far as I'm concerned, we haven't improved the team from last year and we aren't going anywhere.

However, I trusted Kenny after 2004, and I was not mislead. I'm going to hold off on a more harsh judgement until Spring Training rolls around.
http://img524.imageshack.us/img524/4417/bangingheadrc0.gif ABSOLUTLEY NO LOWER THAN 2ND PLACE and thats being generous. The Twins aren't the same team without Liriano, and the Cardinals proved that the Tigers are a joke.

SABRSox
12-13-2006, 06:46 PM
You've posted some astoundingly stupid things, this ranks right up near the top though.

:rolling:

White Sox Randy
12-14-2006, 02:18 PM
You've posted some astoundingly stupid things, this ranks right up near the top though.

That was a joke - right back atcha.

caulfield12
12-14-2006, 05:01 PM
:?: That was a joke - right back atcha.

ondafarm
12-15-2006, 05:01 PM
Konerko had career highs in pretty much every statistic. It's not as if he's 25 and still improving. I don't see much of a chance of an improvement there. Thome had his best year since 2002, and at age 36, it seems unlikely we'll see anything much better (although maybe more even through the year). Aside from the pitching staff, the only players where a significant improvement seems possible are Anderson, Uribe and Podsednik.

The good news is that there's plenty of room for improvement in the pitching staff and that should be more than enough to get them back to where they belong. If they can get 3 of the 5 starters back to sub 4.0 ERA and the other two around 4.5, they'll be tough to stop.

Konerko had a solid year, but then again, he was batting in between two awfully good players and facing a lot more lefties than in previous years. When you aren't THE hitting star on a team, it is a lot easier to put up good numbers. Konerko's homers were down in 2006.

I'm not saying I expect significant improvement from PK, Thome, AJ or Crede, and I do think Dye will have a bit of a slide (from MVP type to just regular Dye) but I expect a little more consistency and improvement, particularly in execution from Iguchi, Pods, Anderson and Uribe. That alone should make the White Sox a very potent offense, capable of scoring both big and small runs.

I think Buehrle has turned a corner and realized he has to stay in top-flight condition, I expect a big year from him. There is a big difference between being 23 and 28 and what type of shape and dedication to that you need to do. McCarthy should do well starting an not in the pen. Contreras looked tired last year. Garland should start a little stronger if his mates also do. Double that for Vazquez. The bullpen, if it doesn't have to pitch many inning should be solid.

Grzegorz
12-15-2006, 09:58 PM
Garland should start a little stronger if his mates also do. Double that for Vazquez.

Please explain these statements to me.