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View Full Version : Bad sign if we're hoping for bullpen help...


caulfield12
12-12-2006, 10:22 AM
http://www.suntimes.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/166936,CST-SPT-cowley10.article

Looks like Sean Tracey and Charles Haeger for the final spot.

Start the KW bashing, lol.

On the other hand, there are currently 3-4 teams "in play" for another "young arms" deal apparently. Looks like Houston is as dead as the Lions' playoff chances. We will have to wait for tomorrow on that front.

Looks like they're really putting the heat on Uribe and Iguchi about conditioning, as well as Buehrle (in other articles) and Jenks.

SouthsideChi
12-12-2006, 10:36 AM
I really wouldn't mind if Haegar won the last spot. I liked what he showed us last year after that 1st bad start. He practically won us the game against the Mariners near the end of the season.

jenn2080
12-12-2006, 10:45 AM
I really wouldn't mind if Haegar won the last spot. I liked what he showed us last year after that 1st bad start. He practically won us the game against the Mariners near the end of the season.


I agree I have no problem with him in bullpen. He showed lots of potential last year and I think he will add a lot to the bullpen.

AuroraSoxFan
12-12-2006, 10:46 AM
I like Haeger a lot. Just not sure how much you can reliable on a knuckleballer, especially out of the pen. I hope he can be lights out. Just can't bank on it. No idea why we didn't pursue one of the bullpen guys recently signed ie Dotel, Mesa, Oliver etc.

champagne030
12-12-2006, 10:52 AM
http://www.suntimes.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/166936,CST-SPT-cowley10.article

Looks like Sean Tracey and Charles Haeger for the final spot.



:kukoo:

And counting on Floyd to fill BeMAC's spot........

:puking:

caulfield12
12-12-2006, 10:55 AM
Or even someone like Scott Williamson, who was available for under $1 million (although not a lefty).

My big concern with Haeger is holding runners on base and what it does to our catching game and bench.

You couldn't easily bring him into pressure situations in the 7th or 8th, or any situation where a runner was on base, even with two outs, because he might throw a wild pitch and score a runner from 3rd.

OTOH, as an "innings eater" and mop-up guy and last member of the pen, he MIGHT be okay...but we still need to have quality in that fourth and fifth spot. Aardsma is a maybe at this point.

kobo
12-12-2006, 10:59 AM
I like Haeger a lot. Just not sure how much you can reliable on a knuckleballer, especially out of the pen. I hope he can be lights out. Just can't bank on it. No idea why we didn't pursue one of the bullpen guys recently signed ie Dotel, Mesa, Oliver etc.
I agree. I am not exactly thrilled with the thought of Haeger coming out of the bullpen. If he doesn't have his knuckleball going I don't think he will be very effective and I think he is too much of a risk coming out of the bullpen.

caulfield12
12-12-2006, 11:07 AM
Can we put Haeger into any game with runners on?

Even at third base and two outs, a wild pitch is a real danger.

He would be fine starting innings, spot starting, 4th-6th mop-up and long relief...but we really need better, more experienced options than Aardsma and Floyd as our 4/5 guys is we're going to carry Haeger.

Not only that, but we're not sure who can adequately catch him, and the impact that would have on the bench and roster coming into the season.

davenicholson
12-12-2006, 11:08 AM
I like Haeger a lot. Just not sure how much you can reliable on a knuckleballer, especially out of the pen. I hope he can be lights out. Just can't bank on it.
Don't make me have to find those pictures of Hoyt Wilhelm, Eddie Fisher and Wilbur Wood again!:redneck

chisoxmike
12-12-2006, 11:10 AM
If the Sox go into opening day with a 'pen of; Aarsdma, Floyd, Tracy/Haegar, Thorton, MacDougal, Jenks - I'll puke.

Grzegorz
12-12-2006, 11:19 AM
If the Sox go into opening day with a 'pen of; Aarsdma, Floyd, Tracy/Haegar, Thorton, MacDougal, Jenks - I won't be expecting much out of the 2007 season.

Wilber Wood, Hoyt Wilhelm, & Eddie Fisher aside I share the same sentiments that others do on this board regarding a knuckleball pitcher in the pen.

The game is different now; especially in the American League. The opposing team will run all over a knuckler given the chance.

As for Tracy, Logan, and Aarsdma lets see what we're shown in spring training.

Who's left on the market with any type of past success? I believe the prevalent thinking about relievers is that an organization has to catch lightning in a bottle.

Ol' No. 2
12-12-2006, 11:32 AM
Can we put Haeger into any game with runners on?

Even at third base and two outs, a wild pitch is a real danger.

He would be fine starting innings, spot starting, 4th-6th mop-up and long relief...but we really need better, more experienced options than Aardsma and Floyd as our 4/5 guys is we're going to carry Haeger.

Not only that, but we're not sure who can adequately catch him, and the impact that would have on the bench and roster coming into the season.No. And Ozzie has, on more than one occasion, given that as the reason why he would use Haeger primarily in long relief.

caulfield12
12-12-2006, 11:35 AM
Wilber Wood, Hoyt Wilhelm, & Eddie Fisher aside I share the same sentiments that others do on this board regarding a knuckleball pitcher in the pen.

The game is different now; especially in the American League. The opposing team will run all over a knuckler given the chance.

As for Tracy, Logan, and Aarsdma lets see what we're shown in spring training.

Who's left on the market with any type of past success? I believe the prevalent thinking about relievers is that an organization has to catch lightning in a bottle.

Look at the list in the M. Gonzalez thread in TB.

We wait until ST and we're pulling pieces like Nelson or Riske off the scrap-heap and being reactive instead of proactive. Heck, outside of Gagne, there are very few "sure things" out there, and even Gagne isn't that die to the injury questions.

I just don't see how KW and OG can't realize this back-up RH centerfielder and 4/5/6 bullpen issue needs to be addressed EXTERNALLY.

MUsoxfan
12-12-2006, 11:52 AM
I'd prefer to never see Haeger in a White Sox uniform ever again. Too many things can go wrong when he's on the mound.

infohawk
12-12-2006, 12:02 PM
I really wouldn't mind if Haegar won the last spot. I liked what he showed us last year after that 1st bad start. He practically won us the game against the Mariners near the end of the season.
What a lot of people forget is how unproven the bullpen was in 2005. The Sox ended up replacing the closer twice (Shingo to Hermanson to Jenks). Nobody thought Politte would be as good as he was. People sure weren't particularly excited about him. Nobody thought Cotts would pitch as well as he did. Vizcaino was servicable, nothing flashy. Jenks didn't even come onto the scene until later in the year. We thought Marte was a sure thing but he ended up being a bust.

Fast forward to 2006. People figured the only problems with the bullpen were the lack of one more lefty to compliment Cotts and Hermanson's back issues. Nobody thought that Politte and Cotts would be largely responsible for sinking the bullpen. Brandon figured to be a solid addition. On paper, there were reasons to think the 2006 bullpen would be at least as good if not better than the 2005 version. It wasn't. Not by a long shot.

I think that, on paper, the 2007 bullpen is shaping up to be a far better version than the 2006 version. I'm very happy with the three-headed monster of Jenks-MacDougal-Thornton at the back end. I think that Aardsma's power arm can be effective in the middle innings. The same goes for Floyd. We still need a second lefty, but I'm much happier with the general talent KW has assembled. In any bullpen, there has to be a surprise or two. Perhaps Haeger will be that surprise. Even so, I'm less concerned about a front-end of the bullpen/long relief-type guy then I am with the middle and back end of the bullpen.

I wouldn't be surprised if the Sox bullpen emerges to become a big strength of the team in 2007. Bullpens can be unpredictable from year to year, but I like the assemblage of talent. I personally think its foolish to overspend for bullpen help, particularly because there are so few "sure thing" bullpen arms available. If you can land a couple, great. If you can't, you're pretty much like the rest of the League and trying to piece together an effective pen.

soxinem1
12-12-2006, 12:07 PM
For all you Haeger fans out there:

I agree he would be an interesting candidate, but he does present a problem.

AJ does not seem very adept in catching the knuckler, and if Haeger is used with any kind of regularity, this presents a problem. He already has to deal with a couple starters who Rusty Staub can steal on, and throwing out runners is not his forte. He would be worn out by August again.

Will Alomar be the designated knuckler guy? I doubt it. The back up catcher would have to be mobile enough to handle such pitcher.

Oz is already taking about reducing AJ's playing time, and having Haeger on the team as a reliever does not seem to be a good fit. If Charlie were a starter, that's different, as Stewart seemed to handle him well, and could start ever fifth day. Jeff Torborg did this with Carlton Fisk when Charlie Hough was on the Sox. But Hough was a veteran. Building your pitching and catching staff around a rookie knuckleballer with about eleven innings of experience is not an option.

Therefore, I'd have to believe that making a move for a more established pitcher, or at least one with a conventional reportoire, is more likely.

RealMenWearBlack
12-12-2006, 12:22 PM
I'm really hoping that Kenny somehow picks up another bullpen arm, but I'm really not counting on it. I'm kind of nervous about Floyd. Haeger was impressive last September, but I'm still not sure if he's ready for an entire season with a big league club.

White Sox Randy
12-12-2006, 12:46 PM
If the Sox go into opening day with a 'pen of; Aarsdma, Floyd, Tracy/Haegar, Thorton, MacDougal, Jenks - I'll puke.

Exactly.

The Sox are serious big market players ? The flubs are paying Mark Derosa more than the Sox entire bullpen.

goon
12-12-2006, 12:58 PM
Exactly.

The Sox are serious big market players ? The flubs are paying Mark Derosa more than the Sox entire bullpen.

just because the cubs spend more, doesn't mean they have better quality.

though i do agree, the sox need to sign a veteran reliever, or trade for one.

gobears1987
12-12-2006, 01:02 PM
WTH has Kenny been thinking this off-season? I'm starting to wonder if he's been eating paint chips or something.

I'm really getting concerned here with all of his comments such as not wanting to bring Buehrle back for 2008 and potentially trading Garland.

I might be taking this one overboard, but this seems sort of Krausesque.

KW has forgotten what won it for us in 2005. It was pitching, pitching, and more pitching. He trades Freddy Garcia while keeping the worthless Javiar Vazquez.

johnr1note
12-12-2006, 01:31 PM
I don't know why everyone is so down on Charlie Haeger. As stated before, the examples of Wilhelm, Wood, and Fisher among others show that a pitcher who primarly throws a knuckler can be EXTREMELY effective out of the pen.

If you factor out the bad start he had against the Angels, where he gave up 6 runs, 5 earned, in 4.1 innings, his statistics were sterling.

He made 6 apperances out of the pen. 14.2 innings. He gave up a total of 7 hits. He walked 7, but struck out 17. Only one runner stole a base on him, and one was caught in the two stolen base attempts. No wild pitches. None. Not any in the entire season. He gave up 3 runs total, all earned. He was credited with one win and one save. His ERA for those 6 apperances was 1.90.

If any other rookie came up from Charlotte and had those kind of stats out of the pen, even in that kind of small innings sample, most of you would be clamoring for him to be up for a spot in the pen in ST.

I saw him in person during the game he came into vs. Seattle, where Buehrle had given up 7 runs already. Haeger changed speeds so effectively, he had the entire Seattle lineup off its time. I was amazed. I know its just one game. But if he could do that with any consistency, he could become a key component.

The issue of wild pitches or whether AJ can catch him is, in my opinion, irrelevant. Wilhelm had an average of .36 WPs per 9 innings over his career. Wilbur Wood had .24. Fisher's was .31. Charlie Hough's was .42, if you want to look at a former Sox knuckler who is perceived to throw a lot of WPs. But the knuckle ball isn't the only kind of a pitch that leads to a lot of wild pitches will be thrown. Jose Contrares' sinker has a rate of .74 WPs per 9. Freddie Garcia's rate was .79. Do you percieve Tim Wakefield as a WP risk? He only threw 6 of them in 2006, which averages to .26 per 9. I don't see a knuckleball pitcher as having any more trouble with control than a sinkerballer like Contrares, or a hard thrower like Bobby Jenks, Roger Clemens, or Nolan Ryan, who is the career leader in Wild Pitches. It all evens out. You are condemning Haeger and he has yet to even throw a WP at the major league level.

Charlie Haeger could be absolutely masterful out of the pen. I hope he gets a shot.

maurice
12-12-2006, 01:38 PM
That's not precisely what the article says:
''We are already optimistic about our bullpen, feel good about our bullpen,'' Williams said. ''Now if we can get another piece to that and add it, great. If not, we'll look at guys like Charlie Haeger, Sean Tracey. Remember this guy that comes in, whoever he is, is going to come in at the beginning of the bullpen anyway. ''We're not going to do anything to break our backs to get that guy.''

Running this through my KW-to-English translator, I get:
I'm trying to get another good reliever, but other teams are asking too much because they think I'm desperate. Maybe if I express confidence in the guys we have, I can gain some leverage and lower the asking price. Worst case scenario, I'll start the season with one of Tracey, Haeger, Logan, Gonzalez, etc. in the least important bullpen role, and then make an in-season trade for an upgrade, if necessary.

Echos of the McCarthy-to-AAA story that came out right before the Garcia trade.

White Sox Randy
12-12-2006, 01:40 PM
I am not down on Haeger. I would keep him if I were the Sox.

I think that eventually he will be a solid starting pitcher and I wouldn't mind him in the White Sox rotation.

I don't think that he is ready yet for the bigs. I want him to have more experience in AAA controlling the knuckler and holding runners on base.

If he has a good year at Charlotte then I think that next year he should receive serious considerstion for the bullpen as a long reliever / swing man.

maurice
12-12-2006, 01:42 PM
The flubs are paying Mark Derosa more than the Sox entire bullpen.

Yet 4 of the guys in our current pen probably are far more valuable to either team than Derosa will be. Go figure.

White Sox Randy
12-12-2006, 01:42 PM
That's not precisely what the article says:


Running this through my KW-to-English translator, I get:


Echos of the McCarthy-to-AAA story that came out right before the Garcia trade.


I agree with this assessment. I think KW is far from done dealing but this crazy market caught him by surprise and now he has to wait for more signings and the dust to clear before proceeding. There is still a lot out there and it is still early.

White Sox Randy
12-12-2006, 02:05 PM
Yet 4 of the guys in our current pen probably are far more valuable to either team than Derosa will be. Go figure.


Mac 1.5 mil.
Jenks 300k
Thornton 300k
Aardsma 300k
Floyd 300k

You'd think that the bullpen would be considered more important than this....3rd place last year with bullpen problems but this year he can't justify spending more than this to ensure that we don't have a repeat of 2006 ?

Ol' No. 2
12-12-2006, 02:11 PM
Mac 1.5 mil.
Jenks 300k
Thornton 300k
Aardsma 300k
Floyd 300k

You'd think that the bullpen would be considered more important than this....3rd place last year with bullpen problems but this year he can't justify spending more than this to ensure that we don't have a repeat of 2006 ?Bobby Howry makes more than all four of those guys combined. Maybe if Kenny traded all four of them for Howry you'd be happy.

infohawk
12-12-2006, 02:15 PM
I don't know why everyone is so down on Charlie Haeger. As stated before, the examples of Wilhelm, Wood, and Fisher among others show that a pitcher who primarly throws a knuckler can be EXTREMELY effective out of the pen.
Not only that, but inserting Haeger or Tracy into the front of the pen is far less risky than was inserting Bobby Jenks, largely untested at the time, into the closer role back in 2005. Sometimes you've got to go with what you have unless a clear and obvious upgrade is both available and realistically attainable.

CubKilla
12-12-2006, 02:21 PM
Maybe a name or two is escaping me, but has there ever been an effective arm out of a BP that has been a knuckleballer?

All the effective knuckleballers I can think of have been starters. If it comes down to Haeger v. Tracy, unless Tracy has an unbelieveably bad spring, it'll be Tracy for the reason already given by previous posters.

SoxFest should be a blast this year :rolleyes:

champagne030
12-12-2006, 02:24 PM
Bobby Howry makes more than all four of those guys combined. Maybe if Kenny traded all four of them for Howry you'd be happy.

I would rather overpay for mediocrity than pay nothing for ****. Aardesma should be our 6th man out of the pen. It sad that he's 4th. Floyd has shown zip that he's any better than Montero. We currently have 3 very good guys in the pen. Two spots look a lot like last seasons LOOGY tryout and the other spot is basically Tracey with slightly better command.

IOW, 1/2 of our bullpen is AAAA, AAA, AAA.

johnr1note
12-12-2006, 02:26 PM
Maybe a name or two is escaping me, but has there ever been an effective arm out of a BP that has been a knuckleballer?

All the effective knuckleballers I can think of have been starters. If it comes down to Haeger v. Tracy, unless Tracy has an unbelieveably bad spring, it'll be Tracy for the reason already given by previous posters.

SoxFest should be a blast this year :rolleyes:

One of the greatest relief pitchers of all time, and a hall of famer and a former member of the White Sox, Hoyt Wilhelm, was primarily a knuckler.

So was Wilbur Wood, who started his career as a relief pitcher.

So was Eddie Fisher, an effect relief specialist in the 1960s for the White Sox.

103 screwball
12-12-2006, 02:31 PM
http://www.suntimes.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/166936,CST-SPT-cowley10.article

Looks like Sean Tracey and Charles Haeger for the final spot.

Start the KW bashing, lol.

On the other hand, there are currently 3-4 teams "in play" for another "young arms" deal apparently. Looks like Houston is as dead as the Lions' playoff chances. We will have to wait for tomorrow on that front.

Looks like they're really putting the heat on Uribe and Iguchi about conditioning, as well as Buehrle (in other articles) and Jenks.

Don't forget that the plan for 2005 was Willie Harris at 2nd with Burke and Ben Davis as the catchers. That was KW's plan and he felt they could do the job well. Don't believe what you read. It is KW smoke and mirrors.

That being said, I think Haegar could make a nice long man in the pen. He could even spot start if needed like Sean Lowe did so well several years ago.

CubKilla
12-12-2006, 02:32 PM
One of the greatest relief pitchers of all time, and a hall of famer and a former member of the White Sox, Hoyt Wilhelm, was primarily a knuckler.

So was Wilbur Wood, who started his career as a relief pitcher.

So was Eddie Fisher, an effect relief specialist in the 1960s for the White Sox.

I knew the above names were knuckleballers but they were before my time. However, I didn't know they broke into the leauge as relievers. I guess it's possible Haeger could work then.

Ol' No. 2
12-12-2006, 02:39 PM
I would rather overpay for mediocrity than pay nothing for ****. Aardesma should be our 6th man out of the pen. It sad that he's 4th. Floyd has shown zip that he's any better than Montero. We currently have 3 very good guys in the pen. Two spots look a lot like last seasons LOOGY tryout and the other spot is basically Tracey with slightly better command.

IOW, 1/2 of our bullpen is AAAA, AAA, AAA.WIth a payroll of $100M for 25 players, that averages out to $4M per player. If you have guys like Konerko, Buehrle, Contreras, Thome, etc making $10M+, that has to be balanced out by other players at near the minimum.

IOW, if you overpay for mediocrity, then you don't have the money to pay for quality.

ondafarm
12-12-2006, 02:44 PM
The reason haeger would be good out of the pen is simple. You want to disrupt the opposing batter's timing as much as possible. With jenks, McDougal and Thornton closing out the pen, having a much slower ball coming in for an inning or two or three right in front of that would foul every hitter I know of's timing. That why I thought Shingo was badly used.

goon
12-12-2006, 02:52 PM
I would rather overpay for mediocrity than pay nothing for ****. Aardesma should be our 6th man out of the pen. It sad that he's 4th. Floyd has shown zip that he's any better than Montero. We currently have 3 very good guys in the pen. Two spots look a lot like last seasons LOOGY tryout and the other spot is basically Tracey with slightly better command.

IOW, 1/2 of our bullpen is AAAA, AAA, AAA.


well, there were a two guys who showed us zip in jenks and thornton, that seemed to turn out okay. mcdougal has had a history of battling injuries, though in limited appearances he's managed to stay healthy.

it's not necessarily overpaying for mediocrity, it's finding talent. aardsma and floyd, while unproven, have some dynamite stuff and more than likely, one if not both will help us.

though kenny does need to find some kind of a deal for another veteran reliever who is better than just mediocre. if we're are going to settle on mediocrity, i'd rather just go into the with tracey or haegar. the crafty veterans didn't seem to get the job done last year (riske, nelson, hermie, politte).

champagne030
12-12-2006, 03:03 PM
WIth a payroll of $100M for 25 players, that averages out to $4M per player. If you have guys like Konerko, Buehrle, Contreras, Thome, etc making $10M+, that has to be balanced out by other players at near the minimum.

IOW, if you overpay for mediocrity, then you don't have the money to pay for quality.

I understand we need players making near the minimum and our bullpen is full of them. Since it's not my money, why not bump up the payroll 6%? We just set attendance records, bumped TV ratings (advertising rates), trimmed $9M with the Garcia trade and Mac extension, ect. We could have had Bradford or Mesa and Walker and that, while mediocre, is a lot better than Floyd and Tracey filling out the bullpen.

IOW, $5-6M could very well be the difference between the playoffs and 4th place.

goon
12-12-2006, 03:06 PM
I understand we need players making near the minimum and our bullpen is full of them. Since it's not my money, why not bump up the payroll 6%? We just set attendance records, bumped TV ratings (advertising rates), trimmed $9M with the Garcia trade and Mac extension, ect. We could have had Bradford or Mesa and Walker and that, while mediocre, is a lot better than Floyd and Tracey filling out the bullpen.

IOW, $5-6M could very well be the difference between the playoffs and 4th place.

well, floyd has to be in the bullpen and if you've seen his stuff, i'm kinda glad he's in it.

Ol' No. 2
12-12-2006, 03:09 PM
I understand we need players making near the minimum and our bullpen is full of them. Since it's not my money, why not bump up the payroll 6%? We just set attendance records, bumped TV ratings (advertising rates), trimmed $9M with the Garcia trade and Mac extension, ect. We could have had Bradford or Mesa and Walker and that, while mediocre, is a lot better than Floyd and Tracey filling out the bullpen.

IOW, $5-6M could very well be the difference between the playoffs and 4th place.The payroll was in the mid-90's last year and it's going up over $100M this year. You got your wish.

cws05champ
12-12-2006, 03:12 PM
I think Tim Redding would be the ideal candidate for the BP next year, did you see the #'s he put up in AAA last year? :D:

Zisk77
12-12-2006, 03:13 PM
Or even someone like Scott Williamson, who was available for under $1 million (although not a lefty).

My big concern with Haeger is holding runners on base and what it does to our catching game and bench.

You couldn't easily bring him into pressure situations in the 7th or 8th, or any situation where a runner was on base, even with two outs, because he might throw a wild pitch and score a runner from 3rd.

OTOH, as an "innings eater" and mop-up guy and last member of the pen, he MIGHT be okay...but we still need to have quality in that fourth and fifth spot. Aardsma is a maybe at this point.


Since he would be the long man, we will either be kicking the **** out of someone or getting the **** kicked out of us. Therefore, the score will neutralize the running in essence.

champagne030
12-12-2006, 03:18 PM
well, there were a two guys who showed us zip in jenks and thornton, that seemed to turn out okay. mcdougal has had a history of battling injuries, though in limited appearances he's managed to stay healthy.

Jenks and Thornton actually showed a lot. 95+ heat and for Jenks an awesome curve. They had fantastic stuff and we didn't count on them. We took a flier on Jenks and stuck him in the minors and Thornton wasn't counted on in exchange for LTP. We're counting on Aardsma, Floyd and possibly a combo of Tracey/Haegar. :o:

it's not necessarily overpaying for mediocrity, it's finding talent. aardsma and floyd, while unproven, have some dynamite stuff and more than likely, one if not both will help us.

I'll give you Aardsma has a great fastball. His secondary pitches and control need refining, but I can live with him. He does remind me of a RH Thornton. Floyd has an fantastic curveball. The rest of his pitches are rather blah and he's never produced squat above AA.

though kenny does need to find some kind of a deal for another veteran reliever who is better than just mediocre. if we're are going to settle on mediocrity, i'd rather just go into the with tracey or haegar. the crafty veterans didn't seem to get the job done last year (riske, nelson, hermie, politte).

Riske would be a much better option than Floyd, Tracey or Haegar. Riske might post a 4.5 ERA, but the others might post a 7.

champagne030
12-12-2006, 03:25 PM
Since he would be the long man, we will either be kicking the **** out of someone or getting the **** kicked out of us. Therefore, the score will neutralize the running in essence.

That would only be if we went with a 7 man bullpen and we're not going to go with a 12 man staff. A 6 man bullpen doesn't have a true "long man". BeMac was our "long man" last season. How often did he end up pitching in close games?

goon
12-12-2006, 03:28 PM
Jenks and Thornton actually showed a lot. 95+ heat and for Jenks an awesome curve. They had fantastic stuff and we didn't count on them. We took a flier on Jenks and stuck him in the minors and Thornton wasn't counted on in exchange for LTP. We're counting on Aardsma, Floyd and possibly a combo of Tracey/Haegar. :o:



I'll give you Aardsma has a great fastball. His secondary pitches and control need refining, but I can live with him. He does remind me of a RH Thornton. Floyd has an fantastic curveball. The rest of his pitches are rather blah and he's never produced squat above AA.



Riske would be a much better option than Floyd, Tracey or Haegar. Riske might post a 4.5 ERA, but the others might post a 7.


so you admit that our acquistions, have talent... what's the problem again? and we most certainly counted on bobby, seems to me if we didn't have jenks in '05, we had no closer for the second half of the season. same thing with thornton in '06, he replaced marte. we relied on him in late innings against left-handed hitters, especially with neal having a rotten year.

if the sox pick up a quality, veteran bullpen arm, this discussion is moot.

HotelWhiteSox
12-12-2006, 03:47 PM
Ugh, please not Haegar, I'm not a fan of knuckleballers in general, let alone in the bullpen

champagne030
12-12-2006, 03:53 PM
so you admit that our acquistions, have talent... what's the problem again? and we most certainly counted on bobby, seems to me if we didn't have jenks in '05, we had no closer for the second half of the season. same thing with thornton in '06, he replaced marte. we relied on him in late innings against left-handed hitters, especially with neal having a rotten year.

if the sox picked up 2 quality, veteran bullpen arms, this discussion is moot.

Fixed it for you and....

The problem is we're counting on these guys to fill our 4-6 spots in the bullpen. Floyd has completely sucked for 2 straight years and his only quality pitch is a curveball that lefties hammer. Tracey hasn't shown me anything other than the ability to throw fairly hard, fall behind in the count and then get lit up. We most certainly didn't count on Bobby coming into '05. We counted on Shingo and had Dustin as insurance. Thornton was penciled into the 6 spot of the 'pen when LTP was traded. I said I could live with Aardsma in the 6th spot.

SABRSox
12-12-2006, 03:56 PM
Blah blah blah. Bullpen performance is a crapshoot anyway. Unless you've got one of Mariano Rivera, Joe Nathan, or Scot Shields, you have no idea what you're going to get out of a guy in a particular year. And I'd rather roll the dice on a cheap rookie than get burned by handing out a giant contract to a guy that puts up a 5 ERA, or trading away 2 prospects for a guy that supposedly "can't miss."

White Sox Randy
12-12-2006, 03:56 PM
Bobby Howry makes more than all four of those guys combined. Maybe if Kenny traded all four of them for Howry you'd be happy.

You seem satisfied to settle for 3rd place again. We have the same philosophy as last year and likely to get the same results.

Fortuantely, in 2005 , the Sox were spending some money on veterans in the pen - Hermanson, Vizcaino, Marte, Shingo, Duque etc. and THEY WON THE WORLD SERIES......maybe ....just maybe....they could try a little of that again.

Would it hurt you too much if we had one proven reliever making $ 3 mil. ? Or would that be too much of the $ 100 + mil. pie to spend on the bullpen ?

Ol' No. 2
12-12-2006, 04:00 PM
You seem satisfied to settle for 3rd place again. We have the same philosophy as last year and likely to get the same results.

Fortuantely, in 2005 , the Sox were spending some money on veterans in the pen - Hermanson, Vizcaino, Marte, Shingo, Duque etc. and THEY WON THE WORLD SERIES......maybe ....just maybe....they could try a little of that again.

Would it hurt you too much if we had one proven reliever making $ 3 mil. ? Or would that be too much of the $ 100 + mil. pie to spend on the bullpen ?We could just pay the guys we have more...then they'd be better, right?

goon
12-12-2006, 04:34 PM
Fixed it for you and....

The problem is we're counting on these guys to fill our 4-6 spots in the bullpen. Floyd has completely sucked for 2 straight years and his only quality pitch is a curveball that lefties hammer. Tracey hasn't shown me anything other than the ability to throw fairly hard, fall behind in the count and then get lit up. We most certainly didn't count on Bobby coming into '05. We counted on Shingo and had Dustin as insurance. Thornton was penciled into the 6 spot of the 'pen when LTP was traded. I said I could live with Aardsma in the 6th spot.

nope, but we sure counted on him in the second half. if we didn't have bobby, the sox would have been screwed. thankfully aardsma's role isn't going to be as important as a closer or setup man, so i don't agree that we are relying on him TOO heavily.

i'll have to wait what happens with the last spot in the bullpen before i say anything about floyd, but i hardly believe that 91-94 fastball is anything to sneeze at. besides, floyd's problem is control, not having good stuff. i'm willing to bet that before the sox made this trade, they talked to cooper (despite him denying any contact before the move) or had other people on hand analyzing his mechanics, looking for a flaw. i'm also assuming they found something they feel they can correct, otherwise the deal wouldn't have been made, even if gio was apart of it.

have faith.

caulfield12
12-12-2006, 04:44 PM
Don't forget that the plan for 2005 was Willie Harris at 2nd with Burke and Ben Davis as the catchers. That was KW's plan and he felt they could do the job well. Don't believe what you read. It is KW smoke and mirrors.

That being said, I think Haegar could make a nice long man in the pen. He could even spot start if needed like Sean Lowe did so well several years ago.


I don't think anyone believed Harris was going to be the starter going into 2005...a move was inevitable. The guy couldn't steal a base when we needed it, struggled with bunting and speed was supposed to be his main asset.

White Sox Randy
12-12-2006, 04:57 PM
We could just pay the guys we have more...then they'd be better, right?

No, they'd still stink and get us 3rd place again. Wanna try a different approach ?

Ol' No. 2
12-12-2006, 05:05 PM
No, they'd still stink and get us 3rd place again. Wanna try a different approach ?You're the one who thinks more expensive players are preferred. Why not just make our own guys more expensive?

DrummerGeorgefan
12-12-2006, 06:17 PM
One of the greatest relief pitchers of all time, and a hall of famer and a former member of the White Sox, Hoyt Wilhelm, was primarily a knuckler.

So was Wilbur Wood, who started his career as a relief pitcher.

So was Eddie Fisher, an effect relief specialist in the 1960s for the White Sox.

In more recent history, the Redsox moved Wakefield into the closer role midseason in 1999 where he saved 15 games and have used him in relief throughout the next few years.

santo=dorf
12-12-2006, 06:25 PM
I'd prefer to never see Haeger in a White Sox uniform ever again. Too many things can go wrong when he's on the mound.
Yeah, like having a 1.29 ERA, 1.00 WHIP, and a 10.93 K/9 after being recalled. :rolleyes:

The Sox can't go into the season with 6 guys who can only go one inning. Ozzie will misuse them, and ruin their arms and confidences. You need a long man in case Vazquez is scared of the 6th inning or Buehrle gets pulled after giving up 10 runs in the first inning. I'd much rather have that guy be someone who makes 390k over some washed up has been crap guy (Rusch, Victor Zambrano) who costs millions. Oh yeah, their numbers won't touch Charlie's either.

SABRSox
12-12-2006, 06:32 PM
The Charlie Haeger hate around here makes no sense. I could sort of understand it if we were talkng about Tracey or Logan, but Haeger? Really?

Just because he throws a knuckleball? He's better than a lot of the crap that's out there right now...

Ol' No. 2
12-12-2006, 06:33 PM
Yeah, like having a 1.29 ERA, 1.00 WHIP, and a 10.93 K/9 after being recalled. :rolleyes:

The Sox can't go into the season with 6 guys who can only go one inning. Ozzie will misuse them, and ruin their arms and confidences. You need a long man in case Vazquez is scared of the 6th inning or Buehrle gets pulled after giving up 10 runs in the first inning. I'd much rather have that guy be someone who makes 390k over some washed up has been crap guy (Rusch, Victor Zambrano) who costs millions. Oh yeah, their numbers won't touch Charlie's either.Let's be fair. Those numbers were in a total of 11 IP in September against KC, Cleveland and Seattle - not exactly bombers. I'd like to see someone better, but I have no real problem with Haeger starting out in long relief. Teams NEVER finish the season with the same bullpen they start with. The best thing you can do is have is 2-3 guys in the minors you can call up to take the place of next year's Cliff Politte and Neal Cotts.

I wouldn't mind them signing Arthur Rhodes if they can get him cheap. You can bet they're going to have two lefties in the pen and I'd rather start out with Rhodes and go to Logan if he fails than start with Logan.

santo=dorf
12-12-2006, 06:34 PM
You seem satisfied to settle for 3rd place again. We have the same philosophy as last year and likely to get the same results.

Fortuantely, in 2005 , the Sox were spending some money on veterans in the pen - Hermanson, Vizcaino, Marte, Shingo, Duque etc. and THEY WON THE WORLD SERIES......maybe ....just maybe....they could try a little of that again.

Would it hurt you too much if we had one proven reliever making $ 3 mil. ? Or would that be too much of the $ 100 + mil. pie to spend on the bullpen ?
Shingo in 2005 was about as bad as Cotts in 2006. Duque wasn't in the pen either.

Even "proven" middle relievers are risky to give money to because bullpen guys are so inconsistent on a year to year basis.

See Cotts, Shingo, Hermanson, and Politte

Navarro's Talent
12-12-2006, 06:41 PM
I would like to give Haegar a chance. I liked what he showed us late last season, and as others have stated, he compliments the power pitchers in the bullpen nicely. I still think there's a chance KW will somehow get another reliever outside the organization, but until I see a press release, I'll just go with Haegar.

Don Cooper will definitely have to work his magic next season. Aardsma, Floyd and a possible Charlotte pitcher (if no veteran is acquired) will have him hard at work. I have faith he can pull it off, though, after seeing what he did with Matt Thornton this past season in a relatively short amount of time.

JermaineDye05
12-12-2006, 06:42 PM
The Charlie Haeger hate around here makes no sense. I could sort of understand it if we were talkng about Tracey or Logan, but Haeger? Really?

Just because he throws a knuckleball? He's better than a lot of the crap that's out there right now...

I don't know if anyone hates Haeger, I think everyone's just very skeptical of him. I will agree he looked very solid out of the bullpen last year after being called back up. Although, going into '07 I'm just wondering if he can duplicate that performance but as everyone else has stated bullpen productivity is almost a crap shoot you never really know what you're going to get. I just hope we could one day have a bullpen like the Twins or Angels. Anyways, back to Haeger I say if he proves something in Spring Training give him a shot he's earned it. The only thing that really scares me with Haeger is just the whole idea of AJ catching a knuckler, I don't want to have to bring in Chris Stewart each time he's called in (that is is Chris makes the team as the backup catcher).

Ol' No. 2
12-12-2006, 06:48 PM
Look at the list of FA pitchers. There's almost nobody on that list that's going to command a big contract. Ray King? Arthur Rhodes? Chris Reitsma? Why not sign three of them for $1.5M each. Odds are at least one of them will work out. If you cut the other two you have one solid reliever for a net cost of $4.5M. Is that such a bad deal?

santo=dorf
12-12-2006, 06:54 PM
Look at the list of FA pitchers. There's almost nobody on that list that's going to command a big contract. Ray King? Arthur Rhodes? Chris Reitsma? Why not sign three of them for $1.5M each. Odds are at least one of them will work out. If you cut the other two you have one solid reliever for a net cost of $4.5M. Is that such a bad deal?
I doubt all three of those guys would settle for that amount. At what point do you cut the other two guys? As evident by Shingo and Politte, it won't happen until late June. So now you have two guys combining for $3 million stinking up the place losing games for the Sox 3 months into the season, all while possibly blocking better replacements in Haeger or Tracey.

The Sox would be better off giving each fan who walks through the gate $1.

KyWhiSoxFan
12-12-2006, 06:59 PM
I like Haeger a lot, particularly long term, but for 2007 I think the long guy out of the pen will be Floyd. I don't know if the Sox need two long men (unless the strategy is to have the starters only work 5 or 6 innings, a given with Vazquez, I know).

Ol' No. 2
12-12-2006, 07:05 PM
I doubt all three of those guys would settle for that amount. At what point do you cut the other two guys? As evident by Shingo and Politte, it won't happen until late June. So now you have two guys combining for $3 million stinking up the place losing games for the Sox 3 months into the season, all while possibly blocking better replacements in Haeger or Tracey.

The Sox would be better off giving each fan who walks through the gate $1.Rhodes made $3.7M last year, is 37 and has been dumped by the Phils.
Reitsma made $2.75M, is coming off an injury and has been non-tendered by the Braves.

I'll bet you can get both those two and at least one more on the FA list for around $1.5M each. Sign three and cut one after ST. Stash Haeger and Logan in the minors. After a month or so you cut one and bring up Haeger or Tracey. I just think you can probably find three guys who combined give you a good chance to find one decent arm at a reasonable cost.

I'll even kick in $1 to help pay for it.:redneck

Domeshot17
12-12-2006, 07:49 PM
I would love Haeger to get a shot honestly. He had a start that he threw better then his numbers (AJ had no idea how to catch him) and that REALLY changed things. I don't want a bullpen full of power arms. How sick is that knuckler going to look inbetween 2 guys throwing 98+. He is also a great mop up option because knucklers can usually throw back to back days in long relief.

Ozzie would need to consult someone about how to USE him. Charlie could be a big weapon, we just can't let ignorance hinder that.

soxfanatlanta
12-12-2006, 08:29 PM
Look at the list of FA pitchers. There's almost nobody on that list that's going to command a big contract. Ray King? Arthur Rhodes? Chris Reitsma? Why not sign three of them for $1.5M each. Odds are at least one of them will work out.

That guy makes the '06 model of Cotts look good. Do not waste your money on that stiff. Like it or not, the FA market for bullpen arms (a crapshoot anyway) is non-existent for the money KW wants to spend. You are right, however, about the pen not being the same through the year. I can see KW swinging a deal mid season to get a solid arm (or arms) if he cannot extend a starter's contract for a reasonable price.

Domeshot17
12-12-2006, 09:06 PM
I always did like Rhodes, but I wonder if signing him is just the equivalent of signing bondra by the hawks

champagne030
12-12-2006, 09:55 PM
That guy makes the '06 model of Cotts look good. Do not waste your money on that stiff. Like it or not, the FA market for bullpen arms (a crapshoot anyway) is non-existent for the money KW wants to spend. You are right, however, about the pen not being the same through the year. I can see KW swinging a deal mid season to get a solid arm (or arms) if he cannot extend a starter's contract for a reasonable price.

We're going to trade MB for a bullpen arm? I like we got Mac last season, but IMO we paid a fairly stiff price in Lumsden. I'd rather sign a Rhodes and Mesa/Riske for $4-6M and take my chances they work out or lose the money and then go to Tracey, Logan, ect.

If we go with Floyd, Tracey, Logan, Haegar first and they fail then we're dealing Broadway to cover the hole.

I'd rather risk the money that two vets and then the minor league guys can fill the spots than risk having to deal a legit piece of the future to fill out the 'pen.

Ol' No. 2
12-13-2006, 10:11 AM
That guy makes the '06 model of Cotts look good. Do not waste your money on that stiff. Like it or not, the FA market for bullpen arms (a crapshoot anyway) is non-existent for the money KW wants to spend. You are right, however, about the pen not being the same through the year. I can see KW swinging a deal mid season to get a solid arm (or arms) if he cannot extend a starter's contract for a reasonable price.Reitsma was injured in 2006. Up until then he was reasonably effective, as middle relievers go.

santo=dorf
12-13-2006, 05:35 PM
Reitsma was injured in 2006. Up until then he was reasonably effective, as middle relievers go.
The Sox should have higher standards than that, especially if they're are going to let someone like Riske walk.

Chris became a full time reliever in 2003:
2003: 4.29 ERA (League AVG: 4.29,) 1.321 WHIP, 5.68 K/9
2004: 4.07 ERA (League AVG: 4.31,) 1.368 WHIP, 6.78 K/9
2005: 3.93 ERA (League AVG: 4.40,) 1.268 WHIP, 5.15 K/9
2006: 8.68 ERA (League AVG: 4.40,) 1.929 WHIP, 4.18 K/9
......and he's coming off of ulnar transplant surgery. Let's compare those numbers to David Riske, who made $1 million LESS than Reitsma last year

Riske over the same time period:
2003: 2.29 ERA (League AVG: 4.26,) 0.964 WHIP, 9.88 K/9
2004: 3.72 ERA (League AVG: 4.54,) 1.422 WHIP, 9.08 K/9
2005: 3.10 ERA (League AVG: 4.10,) 0.963 WHIP, 5.94 K/9
2006: 3.89 ERA (League AVG: 4.65,) 1.295 WHIP, 5.73 K/9

:cool:

soxwon
12-13-2006, 06:06 PM
we added to the pen david aardsma and gavin floyd have great arms and can burn it
along with thornton, macdougal, haeger, jenks
we are set.

caulfield12
12-13-2006, 10:52 PM
The Sox should have higher standards than that, especially if they're are going to let someone like Riske walk.

Chris became a full time reliever in 2003:
2003: 4.29 ERA (League AVG: 4.29,) 1.321 WHIP, 5.68 K/9
2004: 4.07 ERA (League AVG: 4.31,) 1.368 WHIP, 6.78 K/9
2005: 3.93 ERA (League AVG: 4.40,) 1.268 WHIP, 5.15 K/9
2006: 8.68 ERA (League AVG: 4.40,) 1.929 WHIP, 4.18 K/9
......and he's coming off of ulnar transplant surgery. Let's compare those numbers to David Riske, who made $1 million LESS than Reitsma last year

Riske over the same time period:
2003: 2.29 ERA (League AVG: 4.26,) 0.964 WHIP, 9.88 K/9
2004: 3.72 ERA (League AVG: 4.54,) 1.422 WHIP, 9.08 K/9
2005: 3.10 ERA (League AVG: 4.10,) 0.963 WHIP, 5.94 K/9
2006: 3.89 ERA (League AVG: 4.65,) 1.295 WHIP, 5.73 K/9

:cool:

what were the league averages for relievers?

he was fine in 2005 until the Crede homer and hasn't been the same since

Nelson Foxtrot
12-14-2006, 05:13 AM
The free agent relief pickings are pretty slim, but there are a few guys who shouldn't be commanding big bucks and who I'd like to see compete for a spot in spring training. Rick Helling had knee surgery, but should be good to go by March, and had a 2.43 era in relief last year, can throw 2 or 3 innings, and has AL experience. Dan Kolb was good outside of June last year and finished with a 2.75 era after the break. As for lefties, our old pal Scott Schoeneweis could be a good LOOGY, as could J.C. Romero.

Dolanski
12-14-2006, 06:35 PM
One, bullpen is the biggest crap shoot year after year. A great reliever one year is terrible the next. For examples, see Neal Cotts, Cliff Politte, etc.

Two, KW foresaw the market for middle relief going crazy so he brought in MacDougal and Aardvark in trade to not overpay for relief.

Three, coaches are supposed to be pretty high on Boone Logan to make the pen this year.

Four, a scrapheap reliever signed in spring training has just as good a change to be effective as a 3 mill a year guy signed in the offseason. See Darren Oliver last season.

MRM
12-14-2006, 08:26 PM
but we really need better, more experienced options than Aardsma and Floyd as our 4/5 guys is we're going to carry Haeger.

Why is everyone convinced Floyd is going to the bullpen? He's NOT a relief pitcher and I doubt seriously the Sox have any intention of turning him into one. If they were going to trade Freddie for a middle reliever they could have done much better. Floyd will almost certainly be either in the Sox rotation or the Charlotte rotation. (hopefully the latter) You don't fix what's wrong with a starter by putting him in the pen, that's the best way to turn a struggling starter into a full fledged bust.

The Immigrant
12-14-2006, 08:34 PM
Why is everyone convinced Floyd is going to the bullpen? He's NOT a relief pitcher and I doubt seriously the Sox have any intention of turning him into one. If they were going to trade Freddie for a middle reliever they could have done much better. Floyd will almost certainly be either in the Sox rotation or the Charlotte rotation. (hopefully the latter) You don't fix what's wrong with a starter by putting him in the pen, that's the best way to turn a struggling starter into a full fledged bust.

IIRC, Floyd is out of options. That may be why everyone assumes he'll be in the bullpen.

MRM
12-14-2006, 08:53 PM
IIRC, Floyd is out of options. That may be why everyone assumes he'll be in the bullpen.

If he's out of options it was a brain dead trade.

santo=dorf
12-14-2006, 09:47 PM
If he's out of options it was a brain dead trade.
No, he has one left.

champagne030
12-14-2006, 09:49 PM
Why is everyone convinced Floyd is going to the bullpen? He's NOT a relief pitcher and I doubt seriously the Sox have any intention of turning him into one. If they were going to trade Freddie for a middle reliever they could have done much better. Floyd will almost certainly be either in the Sox rotation or the Charlotte rotation. (hopefully the latter) You don't fix what's wrong with a starter by putting him in the pen, that's the best way to turn a struggling starter into a full fledged bust.

I think, and hope, that Gio was our #1 target in this trade. We're taking a roll of the dice on Floyd and his value was so low that the Phillies agreed. While I think FG could've fetched more, we weren't going to get two great pitching prospects in return.

If he's out of options it was a brain dead trade.

People here have posted that he has an option left. I haven't checked to verify.

#11
12-14-2006, 10:56 PM
The reason Garland is worth more than Ted Lilly, despite similar records, is that Garland has finally matured as a big league pitcher, while Lilly is moving sideways at best. Does anybody believe Lilly will equal Garland's performance in '07?

ShoelessJoeS
12-14-2006, 11:34 PM
The reason Garland is worth more than Ted Lilly, despite similar records, is that Garland has finally matured as a big league pitcher, while Lilly is moving sideways at best. Does anybody believe Lilly will equal Garland's performance in '07?It's possible because he's pitching in a terrible division in the National League, but I highly doubt it.

CWSpalehoseCWS
12-14-2006, 11:50 PM
People here have posted that he has an option left. I haven't checked to verify.

How do you check?

#11
01-07-2007, 07:58 PM
Sure, playing in a weak division will help Lilly, but it would help Garland just as much. That is, unless he found his inner Cub and went all to pieces.

itsnotrequired
01-07-2007, 08:33 PM
Sure, playing in a weak division will help Lilly, but it would help Garland just as much. That is, unless he found his inner Cub and went all to pieces.

:?: