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View Full Version : Hot stove tabloid Houston Chronicle reports, again.....


bigredrudy
12-11-2006, 04:30 PM
According to John Lopez of the Houston Chronicle the Garland deal is "this close to being done" and that Taveras and Hirsh are included.

chisoxmike
12-11-2006, 04:32 PM
Above the "Garland to Astros not dead" thread no less.

:rolleyes:

CHIsoxNation
12-11-2006, 04:38 PM
You've got to be kidding me.

EMachine10
12-11-2006, 04:39 PM
:o:

DumpJerry
12-11-2006, 04:40 PM
ahh.......rumors. I ignore them and wait for the press conference. That is when I decide how I feel.

ShoelessJoeS
12-11-2006, 04:42 PM
According to John Lopez of the Houston Chronicle the Garland deal is "this close to being done" and that Taveras and Hirsh are included.link?

infohawk
12-11-2006, 04:44 PM
link?
Yeah, link?

russ99
12-11-2006, 04:46 PM
I don't see anything about this on the Chron website... Or on any of the Astro fansites I frequent... Curious.

I guess it must be true!

CLR01
12-11-2006, 04:47 PM
This can't be.


That very same paper told me just a few days ago that the Sox had already traded Garland to Houston. Now, I am not an expert by any stretch of the imagination but I don't think you can make the same trade twice.

ShoelessJoeS
12-11-2006, 04:49 PM
This can't be.


That very same paper told me just a few days ago that the Sox had already traded Garland to Houston. Now, I am not an expert by any stretch of the imagination but I don't think you can make the same trade twice.So does that mean we're not getting Rowand back?

:whiner: :redneck

bigredrudy
12-11-2006, 04:49 PM
Yeah, link?
Someone on the Houston Board said that Lopez said this about one hour ago. John Lopez writes for the Chronicle. I take it that Lopez has a radio show. It did not sound phony to me.

ShoelessJoeS
12-11-2006, 04:50 PM
Someone on the Houston Board said that Lopez said this about one hour ago. John Lopez writes for the Chronicle. I take it that Lopez has a radio show. It did not sound phony to me.Grain of salt, anyone?

oeo
12-11-2006, 04:52 PM
Can you post a link? Maybe I'm just dumb, but their website is one of the most disorganized one's I've ever seen.

chisoxmike
12-11-2006, 04:52 PM
Someone on the Houston Board said that Lopez said this about one hour ago. John Lopez writes for the Chronicle. I take it that Lopez has a radio show. It did not sound phony to me.

http://images.google.com/images?q=tbn:eDhu2Ch2cMxNWM:http://www.photopox.net/items_img/1127939887grain-of-salt.jpg (http://www.photopox.net/items_img/1127939887grain-of-salt.jpg)

Ol' No. 2
12-11-2006, 04:54 PM
Grain of salt, anyone?About this big?
http://www.hrw.com/science/si-science/chemistry/matter/stones/img/salt.jpg

The Immigrant
12-11-2006, 04:55 PM
FWIW, the paper's website notes that Lopez hosts a radio show on weekday afternoons.

infohawk
12-11-2006, 04:55 PM
I don't know if the rumor has legitimacy or not, but that type of trade strikes me as believable. Now that the Astros have lost Petitte, they may be more willing to throw Hirsh into the mix. I guess we'll just have to wait and see if there's anything to this.

ShoelessJoeS
12-11-2006, 04:56 PM
About this big? LOL. Yea, that should do.

oeo
12-11-2006, 04:57 PM
I don't know if the rumor has legitimacy or not, but that type of trade strikes me as believable. Now that the Astros have lost Petitte, they may be more willing to throw Hirsh into the mix. I guess we'll just have to wait and see if there's anything to this.

I didn't think the original problem was involving Hirsh, it was concerns about Buccholz' health. So unless they change Buccholz to someone else, it isn't going to happen.

CLR01
12-11-2006, 04:57 PM
So does that mean we're not getting Rowand back?

:whiner: :redneck

No we are. I work at the stadium club and we just got a huge shipment of champagne in today. My boss told me it is for the Rowand presser. From what we have heard the Sox are working on a deal to send Thome, Floyd, Gio, Crede and $44 million for Rowand and 500 square feet of green 1.5" wall padding.

ShoelessJoeS
12-11-2006, 04:58 PM
No we are. I work at the stadium club and we just got a huge shipment of champagne in today. My boss told me it is for the Rowand presser. From what we have heard the Sox are working on a deal to send Thome, Floyd, Gio, Crede and $44 million for Rowand and 500 square feet of green 1.5" wall padding.Best. Deal. Ever.

CLR01
12-11-2006, 05:00 PM
Wait so this isn't even a first hand rumor. What a sham.

Ol' No. 2
12-11-2006, 05:01 PM
I didn't think the original problem was involving Hirsh, it was concerns about Buccholz' health. So unless they change Buccholz to someone else, it isn't going to happen.Not only that, but I'm pretty skeptical that this trade was ever intended to be IN ADDITION to the Freddy Garcia trade. I suspect this was something Kenny explored while the negotiations with Philly was going on, but it was always going to be one or the other. After all that Kenny has done to avoid a repeat of the 2004 5th starter merry-go-round I just don't see him returning to that with Floyd/Haeger/whoever. The only conceivable way this happens is if they use the money on a FA pitcher. With only Barry Zito left, the chances of that are slim and none, and slim just walked out the door.

ShoelessJoeS
12-11-2006, 05:04 PM
Not only that, but I'm pretty skeptical that this trade was ever intended to be IN ADDITION to the Freddy Garcia trade. I suspect this was something Kenny explored while the negotiations with Philly was going on, but it was always going to be one or the other. After all that Kenny has done to avoid a repeat of the 2004 5th starter merry-go-round I just don't see him returning to that with Floyd/Haeger/whoever. The only conceivable way this happens is if they use the money on a FA pitcher. With only Barry Zito left, the chances of that are slim and none, and slim just walked out the door.Scott Merkin agrees with your skepticism about a possible Zito trade in his most recent mailbag addition...

http://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/news/article.jsp?ymd=20061211&content_id=1759228&vkey=news_cws&fext=.jsp&c_id=cws

CLR01
12-11-2006, 05:05 PM
Not only that, but I'm pretty skeptical that this trade was ever intended to be IN ADDITION to the Freddy Garcia trade. I suspect this was something Kenny explored while the negotiations with Philly was going on, but it was always going to be one or the other. After all that Kenny has done to avoid a repeat of the 2004 5th starter merry-go-round I just don't see him returning to that with Floyd/Haeger/whoever. The only conceivable way this happens is if they use the money on a FA pitcher. With only Barry Zito left, the chances of that are slim and none, and slim just walked out the door.

But the problem is we heard nothing about this until the morning after the Garcia trade. I would think that if the talks were going on at the same time we would have heard something sooner.

ShoelessJoeS
12-11-2006, 05:06 PM
But the problem is we heard nothing about this until the morning after the Garcia trade. I would think that if the talks were going on at the same time we would have heard something sooner.Not necessarily, you know how Kenny likes to fly.

CLR01
12-11-2006, 05:09 PM
Not necessarily, you know how Kenny likes to fly.

Even with Kenny's under the radar stuff it still usually leaks out as the deal gets close or talks get serious.

Ol' No. 2
12-11-2006, 05:12 PM
But the problem is we heard nothing about this until the morning after the Garcia trade. I would think that if the talks were going on at the same time we would have heard something sooner.Why does that seem odd? The reporter probably heard something that night and ran with it in the next day's paper.

Navarro's Talent
12-11-2006, 05:17 PM
I don't see it happening, especially after the Garcia trade. Garland's locked up beyond next season, and his contract is great for the organization compared to what lesser players have gotten lately. He's practically a steal, plus his best years are still ahead of him. If the free agent and trade markets looked better, I'd think this trade could happen.

CLR01
12-11-2006, 05:18 PM
Why does that seem odd? The reporter probably heard something that night and ran with it in the next day's paper.

Nobody else picked it up? This person just happened to be in the right place at the right time? I don't know I just find it hard to believe that a trade like that could stay that quiet for that long.

Ol' No. 2
12-11-2006, 05:23 PM
Nobody else picked it up? This person just happened to be in the right place at the right time? I don't know I just find it hard to believe that a trade like that could stay that quiet for that long.How many "scoops" has Levineline broken that never happened? Maybe other reporters heard about it but had the sense to recognize it for what it was. I just have a very hard time believing that Kenny Williams would create a hole in the rotation. That would contradict everything he's said and done over the last two years.

DaveIsHere
12-11-2006, 05:25 PM
I hate these threads, but here goes:

Maybe we are talking to Zito under the radar, and we will trade Garland. Maybe Kenny hopes that if we sign Zito then we can let Mark walk, and have one of the young pick up's fill his place in '08. That may make sense.

Personally, I am not forming any type of opinion on our team until April.

Ol' No. 2
12-11-2006, 05:28 PM
I hate these threads, but here goes:

Maybe we are talking to Zito under the radar, and we will trade Garland. Maybe Kenny hopes that if we sign Zito then we can let Mark walk, and have one of the young pick up's fill his place in '08. That may make sense.

Personally, I am not forming any type of opinion on our team until April.I'm sure that's it.

http://humanities.byu.edu/ELC/student/idioms/idioms/images/when_pigs_fly.jpg

oeo
12-11-2006, 05:29 PM
I hate these threads, but here goes:

Maybe we are talking to Zito under the radar, and we will trade Garland. Maybe Kenny hopes that if we sign Zito then we can let Mark walk, and have one of the young pick up's fill his place in '08. That may make sense.

Personally, I am not forming any type of opinion on our team until April.

The Sox don't sign pitchers to four-year contracts, let alone the six that Zito wants. In other words, it's not going to happen.

DumpJerry
12-11-2006, 05:38 PM
I've got my top snoop rushing out to baggage claim at the Phoenix airport. As soon as I get word of what is happening, I'll post it here.

In the meantime, everyone enjoy dinner and the Bears' game. In fact, enjoy the next several Bears' games.

Enjoy Christmas/Hanukkah/New Year's....my snoop is very patient.

bigredrudy
12-11-2006, 05:44 PM
How many "scoops" has Levineline broken that never happened? Maybe other reporters heard about it but had the sense to recognize it for what it was. I just have a very hard time believing that Kenny Williams would create a hole in the rotation. That would contradict everything he's said and done over the last two years.
A reporter for the Chronicle again stated that the proposed deal broke down because of medical concerns about Buchholtz's health. The article was written om 12 9. In that same article the owner of the Astros is quoted as saying that the Astros were going to get back to the White Sox deal. I personally feel this deal is going to go through. I would be shocked if all of this was baloney. If Garland was not available why would McClain say this. It does not make sense.

chisoxmike
12-11-2006, 05:46 PM
A reporter for the Chronicle again stated that the proposed deal broke down because of medical concerns about Buchholtz's health. The article was written om 12 9. In that same article the owner of the Astros is quoted as saying that the Astros were going to get back to the White Sox deal. I personally feel this deal is going to go through. I would be shocked if all of this was baloney. If Garland was not available why would McClain say this. It does not make sense.
:rolleyes:

bigredrudy
12-11-2006, 05:50 PM
How many "scoops" has Levineline broken that never happened? Maybe other reporters heard about it but had the sense to recognize it for what it was. I just have a very hard time believing that Kenny Williams would create a hole in the rotation. That would contradict everything he's said and done over the last two years.
A reporter for the same newspaper on 12-9 said that the proposed deal broke down because of medical concerns about Buchholtz. And quoted McClane the owner as saying that the Astros were going to talk to the White Sox once again. I would be more than surprised if this deal does not go down.

kittle42
12-11-2006, 05:51 PM
I would be more than surprised if this deal does not go down.

Enjoy your surprise!

KRS1
12-11-2006, 05:58 PM
A reporter for the same newspaper on 12-9 said that the proposed deal broke down because of medical concerns about Buchholtz. And quoted McClane the owner as saying that the Astros were going to talk to the White Sox once again. I would be more than surprised if this deal does not go down.

None of this means anything. Just because the Astros GM said he will try to talk to us again, doesnt mean it's imminent, or even a possibility anymore. If it is, then so be it, but you are putting way too much credibility into a newspaper report. Especially coming from the paper that said this trade was a done deal last Thursday, when it is quite clear, it was not.

Now please, prepare yourself to be more than surprised, A LOT, if you are going to scan a few papers reports and a message board and decide things are the way they have been painted by those sources.

CLR01
12-11-2006, 06:36 PM
How many "scoops" has Levineline broken that never happened? Maybe other reporters heard about it but had the sense to recognize it for what it was. I just have a very hard time believing that Kenny Williams would create a hole in the rotation. That would contradict everything he's said and done over the last two years.

They recognized it for what it was until the next morning when they all decided it was something that they had to report?

How many of the "scoops" that Levineline throws against the wall are picked up by just about every media outlet across the country and reported as a deal that is all but complete? How many of Levineline's "scoops" include one side scheduling a press conference and claiming a deal is done? How many of Levineline's "scoops" end with one team supposedly backing out due to medical concerns over one of the players included in the deal?

I also believe that KW wouldn't create a hole in his rotation but it's also possible there was a part B to whatever his plan was. No I do not believe that Zito was that plan.

Domeshot17
12-11-2006, 06:48 PM
I heard on ESPN that Kenny said he had talked to Brian Cashman. This means that I will be be really upset if we do not trade for Arod!!!!!

caulfield12
12-11-2006, 08:31 PM
:rolleyes:


The only McClains I know played forward on the championship Villanova team in 1985 with Easy Ed Pinckney.

Drayton McLane is the owner.

soxtalker
12-11-2006, 09:33 PM
OK, since this is in "What's the Score" and is just in the rumor/proposed trade category, let's look at this from a slightly different perspective.

What if you are Houston. You really need a SP, and Garland would fit the bill. You've had talks with KW, and he's interested in Taveras and Hirsh, but doesn't like the risk of Buccholz. What else could you possibly offer KW in addition to Taveras and Hirsh that you would be willing to give up? That rules out a lot of your ML roster.

I guess what I'm asking here is for suggestions from anyone who might have knowledge of the Houston system. Do they have any hot prospects that might be a year or two away that KW would like to get?

I'm not advocating this trade. I don't know what Kenny would do to fill the hole left by Garland. But I'm willing to assume that he has a plan to do so. (Otherwise, he wouldn't make the trade -- which is the most likely scenario.) And he doesn't necessarily need to do it in this trade.

HawkDJ
12-11-2006, 09:49 PM
I guess we'll have to wait until Wednesday?

DaleJRFan
12-11-2006, 10:01 PM
Doesn't Garland have a no trade clause for 2007? Or was that only for the first year of his extension in 2006???

Maybe the deal got nixed after the two teams ad agreed... because Garland doesn't want to be traded???

EDIT: found it... his NTC expired 11/01/06.


Garland does have a no-trade clause in his contract until Nov. 1, 2006, and can veto any deal...

103 screwball
12-12-2006, 12:32 AM
I think this could happen. Houston would have step it up and propose an overwhelming offer, but from what I've read they sound desperate enough to do just that. Of course KW will have a part B. How about Haegar as the 5th starter until Mark Mulder's rehab is complete. Mulder grew up a Sox fan and may be a good buy low opportunity coming off of his injury. How about a trade for Manny with Boston that puts him in left and Traveras in Center leading off.

Save Freddy, Garland, Pods contracts = 22 million

Spend on Manny, Traveras, Mulder = 26 million with 8 million to Mulder, 18 to Manny and minimum to Traveras. That is assuming no cash comes with Manny which would be nice. Plus, you won't have to trade all of those pitching prospects to Boston so you still will end up with 1 or 2 young arms added to the farm. Also, the guys the Sox would be getting would be under team control for a while.

Traveras
Iguchi
Manny
Thome
Dye
Konerko
AJ
Crede
Uribe

Count
Javier
Mark
Fingernails on a blackboard
Haegar/Phillips/Mulder when he is ready

It all depends on what Boston wants and what Houston is desperate enough to part with. This is just my little idea. KW could come up with even better.

caulfield12
12-12-2006, 12:52 AM
I think this could happen. Houston would have step it up and propose an overwhelming offer, but from what I've read they sound desperate enough to do just that. Of course KW will have a part B. How about Haegar as the 5th starter until Mark Mulder's rehab is complete. Mulder grew up a Sox fan and may be a good buy low opportunity coming off of his injury. How about a trade for Manny with Boston that puts him in left and Traveras in Center leading off.

Save Freddy, Garland, Pods contracts = 22 million

Spend on Manny, Traveras, Mulder = 26 million with 8 million to Mulder, 18 to Manny and minimum to Traveras. That is assuming no cash comes with Manny which would be nice. Plus, you won't have to trade all of those pitching prospects to Boston so you still will end up with 1 or 2 young arms added to the farm. Also, the guys the Sox would be getting would be under team control for a while.

Traveras
Iguchi
Manny
Thome
Dye
Konerko
AJ
Crede
Uribe

Count
Javier
Mark
Fingernails on a blackboard
Haegar/Phillips/Mulder when he is ready

It all depends on what Boston wants and what Houston is desperate enough to part with. This is just my little idea. KW could come up with even better.


NO, NO and NO.

DeadMoney
12-12-2006, 01:09 AM
I think this could happen. Houston would have step it up and propose an overwhelming offer, but from what I've read they sound desperate enough to do just that. Of course KW will have a part B. How about Haegar as the 5th starter until Mark Mulder's rehab is complete. Mulder grew up a Sox fan and may be a good buy low opportunity coming off of his injury. How about a trade for Manny with Boston that puts him in left and Traveras in Center leading off.

Save Freddy, Garland, Pods contracts = 22 million

Spend on Manny, Traveras, Mulder = 26 million with 8 million to Mulder, 18 to Manny and minimum to Traveras. That is assuming no cash comes with Manny which would be nice. Plus, you won't have to trade all of those pitching prospects to Boston so you still will end up with 1 or 2 young arms added to the farm. Also, the guys the Sox would be getting would be under team control for a while.

Traveras
Iguchi
Manny
Thome
Dye
Konerko
AJ
Crede
Uribe

Count
Javier
Mark
Fingernails on a blackboard
Haegar/Phillips/Mulder when he is ready

It all depends on what Boston wants and what Houston is desperate enough to part with. This is just my little idea. KW could come up with even better.

Oh, lord. :rolling:

likeawarlord
12-12-2006, 01:14 AM
I think this could happen. Houston would have step it up and propose an overwhelming offer, but from what I've read they sound desperate enough to do just that. Of course KW will have a part B. How about Haegar as the 5th starter until Mark Mulder's rehab is complete. Mulder grew up a Sox fan and may be a good buy low opportunity coming off of his injury. How about a trade for Manny with Boston that puts him in left and Traveras in Center leading off.

Save Freddy, Garland, Pods contracts = 22 million

Spend on Manny, Traveras, Mulder = 26 million with 8 million to Mulder, 18 to Manny and minimum to Traveras. That is assuming no cash comes with Manny which would be nice. Plus, you won't have to trade all of those pitching prospects to Boston so you still will end up with 1 or 2 young arms added to the farm. Also, the guys the Sox would be getting would be under team control for a while.

Traveras
Iguchi
Manny
Thome
Dye
Konerko
AJ
Crede
Uribe

Count
Javier
Mark
Fingernails on a blackboard
Haegar/Phillips/Mulder when he is ready

It all depends on what Boston wants and what Houston is desperate enough to part with. This is just my little idea. KW could come up with even better.

eeeeeewwww

likeawarlord
12-12-2006, 01:15 AM
OK, since this is in "What's the Score" and is just in the rumor/proposed trade category, let's look at this from a slightly different perspective.

What if you are Houston. You really need a SP, and Garland would fit the bill. You've had talks with KW, and he's interested in Taveras and Hirsh, but doesn't like the risk of Buccholz. What else could you possibly offer KW in addition to Taveras and Hirsh that you would be willing to give up? That rules out a lot of your ML roster.

I guess what I'm asking here is for suggestions from anyone who might have knowledge of the Houston system. Do they have any hot prospects that might be a year or two away that KW would like to get?

I'm not advocating this trade. I don't know what Kenny would do to fill the hole left by Garland. But I'm willing to assume that he has a plan to do so. (Otherwise, he wouldn't make the trade -- which is the most likely scenario.) And he doesn't necessarily need to do it in this trade.

there's been some talk of the astros giving up either wheeler or lidge for starting pitching, but as you suggest, kw would probably have to sweeten the deal. and this trade scenario sucks, anyway.

Qdiddy
12-12-2006, 01:15 AM
If this deal does go down is there anyway we can get Lidge included in the trade? He has awesome stuff..95-99 fast and a nasty slider. Maybe Cooper can get him back to pre-Pujols days.

What would it take? and can you imagine this pen:

Logan/Haeger/Tracy/Hirsh
Aardsma 94-97mph
Floyd 93-96mph
Thornton 95-98mph
Macdougal 95-98mph
Lidge 96-100mph
Jenks 96-100mph

In the words of "HAWK"...."GAS!", "HE GONE!"

Man Soo Lee
12-12-2006, 01:16 AM
I just have a very hard time believing that Kenny Williams would create a hole in the rotation. That would contradict everything he's said and done over the last two years.

Trading another starter might contradict everything he's done over the last two years (and it might be a bad idea), but it doesn't contradict what he has said since the Garcia trade:

''The White Sox are still open for business (http://www.suntimes.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/163839,CST-SPT-sox07.article) for anyone that might want to talk about any of our players,'' Williams said. ''We are continuing on the mission of looking for targeted players that we believe to be type-1, type-2 guys in your rotation, while staying competitive.''
''Going back to as early as last season, we began to target a handful of organizations, a handful of players. If we're able to fit those players that we believe can ultimately win a championship, while at the same time not sacrifice too much on the present (http://www.suntimes.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/165037,CST-SPT-cowley08.article), we'll go ahead and do that.''
''It has dwindled down to a few clubs where we have our targets,'' Williams said. ''We are not going out to search for a deal. We have targeted all of these deals (http://www.suntimes.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/165097,CST-SPT-sox08.article) from a long way back. In a lot of cases, I've sent four or five scouts out to see these [targeted pitchers] over a period of time.''
And if they do trade another starter, I wouldn't assume that they're done and plan to play 5th-starter-roulette again. A pile of pitching prospects and 15+ million dollars to spend are valuable commodities on the trade market.

"Just remember (http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports/columnists/cs-061207rogers,1,2596392.column?coll=cs-whitesox-utility) that you don't judge an off-season by what you have at the end of the winter meetings," a White Sox executive said Thursday.

Craig Grebeck
12-12-2006, 06:38 AM
Why exactly are people so opposed to Haegar in the five spot?

caulfield12
12-12-2006, 07:03 AM
Why exactly are people so opposed to Haegar in the five spot?


I would like that as much as Craig Grebeck getting 600 at-bats per season, and he was one of my favorites.

I'm not opposed to it for 2008 if what KW has assembled for this year fizzles, but I don't want to go into our last "loaded" year (in terms of talent) with such an unknown.

Whatever bad you can say about Garland, Vazquez and Garcia, they would eat innings (well, Javier, not as much) and put up and ERA between 4.25-4.75. I don't think I am ready to pronouce Haeger capable of that quite yet.

wdelaney72
12-12-2006, 08:36 AM
Why exactly are people so opposed to Haegar in the five spot?

1. Knuckleballer's tend to be inconsistent and when they're bad.... they're REAL bad.
2. Haeger has not proven to be a MLB starting pitcher.

kraut83
12-12-2006, 09:07 AM
Taveras, Hirsch, maybe toss in a guy like Oswalt and I'd call it a deal! :redneck

White Sox Randy
12-12-2006, 09:15 AM
I believe that this deal WILL happen.

Obviously, Kenny must have more deals after this planned.

I like Hirsh a lot. I don't think much of Taveras but he is young enough that we may see improvement still.

Apparently, Houston is over a barrel. They lost out on Petitte and Clemens. They need a solid starter to compete more than anyone.

I'd take Hirsh and Ensberg (if he's healthy). If not, Hirsh, Taveras and Qualls would be a huge haul - throw in a prospect on our side.

PennStater98r
12-12-2006, 09:18 AM
maybe toss in a guy like Oswalt and I'd call it a deal! :redneck

I heard he has a high upside...

Tragg
12-12-2006, 09:27 AM
I believe that this deal WILL happen.

Obviously, Kenny must have more deals after this planned.

I like Hirsh a lot. I don't think much of Taveras but he is young enough that we may see improvement still.

Apparently, Houston is over a barrel. They lost out on Petitte and Clemens. They need a solid starter to compete more than anyone.

I'd take Hirsh and Ensberg (if he's healthy). If not, Hirsh, Taveras and Qualls would be a huge haul - throw in a prospect on our side.
It needs to be a haul for a quality young pitcher signed for a couple of years at a reasonable price.
I don't see Hirsh, Taveras and Qualls as any huge steal - of the 3, only Qualls is proven even average on a ML level and that's as a relief pitcher. It's probably a fair deal because of Hirrsh's upside.

We have 2 3B, so I don't get why we'd want Ensberg. (Astros have been trying to deal Ensberg for a year; maybe he's part of the "3 way" aspect of these rumored deals).
TAverez only offensive value is if he can bat lead-off Unfortunately, he is yet another swing at everything player with no power and a low OBP. The one light may be that his walk total did go up in 2006, but it's still really bad and unlikely to improve under Guillen's coaching. I'd also see him more as a Pods replacement than Anderson.

Qualls is a solid relief pitcher - good throw in in the trade. And they have a stocked farm system from what I understand so maybe we can take 2 of their stud prospects. Hirsch is supposedly one of their best, although he wasn't stellar in late season duty....

1917
12-12-2006, 09:39 AM
I believe that this deal WILL happen.

Obviously, Kenny must have more deals after this planned.

I like Hirsh a lot. I don't think much of Taveras but he is young enough that we may see improvement still.

Apparently, Houston is over a barrel. They lost out on Petitte and Clemens. They need a solid starter to compete more than anyone.

I'd take Hirsh and Ensberg (if he's healthy). If not, Hirsh, Taveras and Qualls would be a huge haul - throw in a prospect on our side.

Where do we put Ensburg? R U saying we trade Crede?

White Sox Randy
12-12-2006, 10:02 AM
Yes. If I could obtain a healthy Ensberg, I would trade Crede.

This might be fantasy but if you could get Lackey or Santana for him, you could then trade Hirsh to the Rays for Baldelli.

Then the outfield problem would be solved with Dye, Anderson, Baldelli and Taveras. Then, Sweeney comes in when Dye leaves next year.

Also, Ensberg allows the Sox to slowly break in Fields if they want to.

Ensberg has decent speed, an OBP near .400, power and average defense. But, he's had shoulder and back issues.

Ol' No. 2
12-12-2006, 10:18 AM
They recognized it for what it was until the next morning when they all decided it was something that they had to report?

How many of the "scoops" that Levineline throws against the wall are picked up by just about every media outlet across the country and reported as a deal that is all but complete? How many of Levineline's "scoops" include one side scheduling a press conference and claiming a deal is done? How many of Levineline's "scoops" end with one team supposedly backing out due to medical concerns over one of the players included in the deal?

I also believe that KW wouldn't create a hole in his rotation but it's also possible there was a part B to whatever his plan was. No I do not believe that Zito was that plan.You know how reporters are. They might hold back on a story because they don't believe it, but once someone else reports it the floodgates open. I don't doubt that this deal was close at one time. The negotiations were undoubtedly going on simultaneously with the Phils and Astros. But once the Garcia deal was completed, the Astros deal was dead in the water.

If KW has a part B to get another starter, who? Who's going to give up a proven starter and why wouldn't he cost at least as much in trade as what KW would get from Houston for Garland? It would have to be a FA signing and there are no decent starters still left other than Zito. I just can't see how this could work.

soxtalker
12-12-2006, 10:52 AM
If KW has a part B to get another starter, who? Who's going to give up a proven starter and why wouldn't he cost at least as much in trade as what KW would get from Houston for Garland? It would have to be a FA signing and there are no decent starters still left other than Zito. I just can't see how this could work.

This is essentially trying to guess what KW is thinking. He's given some hints, but we probably won't know for sure until after he's finished dealing.

Having said that, KW seems to be pretty intent on getting younger. So, though I see a lot of postings on WSI suggesting experienced players in trade (e.g., Lidge) or FA (e.g., Zito), they just don't seem to fit what KW has been saying. They probably do fit what he might have said a couple of years ago. And they probably reflect the bias on this board toward experienced players over prospects.

I could see KW making a trade that would bring several prospects that he considers to be close to being ready. That brings back memories of the 5th starter problems of 2004, but, if he makes such a deal, it probably says that he has more confidence in the pitchers waiting in the wings now.

Ol' No. 2
12-12-2006, 11:03 AM
This is essentially trying to guess what KW is thinking. He's given some hints, but we probably won't know for sure until after he's finished dealing.

Having said that, KW seems to be pretty intent on getting younger. So, though I see a lot of postings on WSI suggesting experienced players in trade (e.g., Lidge) or FA (e.g., Zito), they just don't seem to fit what KW has been saying. They probably do fit what he might have said a couple of years ago. And they probably reflect the bias on this board toward experienced players over prospects.

I could see KW making a trade that would bring several prospects that he considers to be close to being ready. That brings back memories of the 5th starter problems of 2004, but, if he makes such a deal, it probably says that he has more confidence in the pitchers waiting in the wings now.Kenny's MO seems to be that he doesn't want to ever have a hole in his rotation that he has to go to the FA market to fill. Last year he acquired Vazquez when Garland and Contreras were still holding out on signing extensions. I took that as figuring that if he could only re-sign one he could fill the other hole with McCarthy. This year he's looking ahead to 2008 and acquired Floyd to fill the hole if he can't re-sign Buehrle. But he's never created a hole in the rotation, and I don't expect him to start now.

White Sox Randy
12-12-2006, 11:05 AM
If Kenny trades for Hirsh, he would be the 5th starter - unless they moved him to another team.

He dominated AAA last year and will be 24 in Feb. so he has nothing left to prove in the minors. The bullpen doesn't make much sense either. He seems ready for the Sox rotation, if they got him.

SABRSox
12-12-2006, 11:25 AM
If Kenny trades for Hirsh, he would be the 5th starter - unless they moved him to another team.

He dominated AAA last year and will be 24 in Feb. so he has nothing left to prove in the minors. The bullpen doesn't make much sense either. He seems ready for the Sox rotation, if they got him.

Hirsh walked a lot of guys in his call-up last season. Maybe that's just jitters, but it's something to be concerned about. I'm not sure I'd want him as the 5th starter just yet. Certainly I'd prefer Garland to Hirsh at the moment...

The guy is a stud, though. He's going to be a good one.

White Sox Randy
12-12-2006, 11:52 AM
Hirsh walked a lot of guys in his call-up last season. Maybe that's just jitters, but it's something to be concerned about. I'm not sure I'd want him as the 5th starter just yet. Certainly I'd prefer Garland to Hirsh at the moment...

The guy is a stud, though. He's going to be a good one.


Well, if Hirsh were Garland (at the moment ), I don't think Houston would trade him and 2 other players for Garland.

But, I think that he would be a pretty decent 5th starter this year and by 2009 be atleast as good as Garland or better.

Tragg
12-12-2006, 11:55 AM
Whatever deal it is, if there is one, it better be a lot more than the reported Garland for Taverez/Buckholz, two below-average major league ballplayers. That would be a joke.

soxtalker
12-12-2006, 12:25 PM
Whatever deal it is, if there is one, it better be a lot more than the reported Garland for Taverez/Buckholz, two below-average major league ballplayers. That would be a joke.

Actually, the part of this trade rumor that has puzzled me the most (throughout its various stages) is Taveras. Now, I realize that BA is climbing out of a big batting average hole, and Taveras has a track record that should put him 0.050 or so above what Brian hit this year. But that track record of Taveras also presents somewhat of a ceiling. Is there reason to believe that he'll become a .300 hitter or, more important, will significantly improve his walks and OBP?

So, is he only a minor part of the rumored deal? Is he insurance in case BA doesn't improve? Or is he a one-year replacement while KW waits for the other young outfielders in our system to improve (and perhaps allows KW to deal BA)?

103 screwball
12-12-2006, 01:20 PM
Taveras in center lets the Sox get their speedy lead off guy playing center. Left field can then be upgraded with Manny or Crawford. Anderson has lost favor. He can be traded, fight it out for 4th outfielder, or if he ever starts to play to the potential we all think he has, he can compete for right field with Sweeney if Dye is not re-signed.

kittle42
12-12-2006, 01:31 PM
Left field can then be upgraded with Manny or Crawford.

Problem: either of these has about as much chance of happening as me playing LF for the Sox next season.

103 screwball
12-12-2006, 01:37 PM
Problem: either of these has about as much chance of happening as me playing LF for the Sox next season.

Don't underestimate KW. He thinks big.

soxtalker
12-12-2006, 01:43 PM
Taveras in center lets the Sox get their speedy lead off guy playing center. Left field can then be upgraded with Manny or Crawford. Anderson has lost favor. He can be traded, fight it out for 4th outfielder, or if he ever starts to play to the potential we all think he has, he can compete for right field with Sweeney if Dye is not re-signed.

I have to agree with Kittle42's sentiments here (though I'll say Manny or Crawford definitely have a greater chance than I do of playing LF here). Manny would tie up a lot of salary, and both would probably cost a bunch of prospects that KW seems so intent on stockpiling. Now, if KW has received enough interest from other GM's that he thinks he can get some good pitching prospects for BA, I could understand why he'd acquire Taveras to play CF for a year or so.

Man Soo Lee
12-12-2006, 02:03 PM
I don't doubt that this deal was close at one time. The negotiations were undoubtedly going on simultaneously with the Phils and Astros. But once the Garcia deal was completed, the Astros deal was dead in the water.

Then how do you explain the KW quotes from after the Garcia trade about targeting young pitchers? Besides another starter, what does he have to offer for top pitching prospects?

If KW has a part B to get another starter, who? Who's going to give up a proven starter and why wouldn't he cost at least as much in trade as what KW would get from Houston for Garland? It would have to be a FA signing and there are no decent starters still left other than Zito. I just can't see how this could work.

There aren't many names that make "part B" work and it would likely cost more than the return for Garland. If the Houston reports are accurate (though I doubt that's the case), wouldn't the Marlins have to consider something like Brian Anderson/Hirsh/Gio for Dontrelle Willis?

Ol' No. 2
12-12-2006, 02:14 PM
Then how do you explain the KW quotes from after the Garcia trade about targeting young pitchers? Besides another starter, what does he have to offer for top pitching prospects?



There aren't many names that make "part B" work and it would likely cost more than the return for Garland. If the Houston reports are accurate (though I doubt that's the case), wouldn't the Marlins have to consider something like Brian Anderson/Hirsh/Gio for Dontrelle Willis?Kenny has also said he's not going to deal for young players if it hurts the team's chances to compete in 2007. I'd do that trade with the Marlins in a heartbeat...unfortunately, I doubt the Marlins would.

Craig Grebeck
12-12-2006, 02:22 PM
Kenny has also said he's not going to deal for young players if it hurts the team's chances to compete in 2007. I'd do that trade with the Marlins in a heartbeat...unfortunately, I doubt the Marlins would.
That's a horrible trade.

kittle42
12-12-2006, 02:24 PM
Don't underestimate KW. He thinks big.

Kenny Williams has told us what this organization's philosophy is right now. The Garcia trade was indicative of it. So were the Houston rumors (I for one do *not* believe there was a subsequent trade in the works for a big-time player) Those of us who hope otherwise in the hope that the Sox go fetch some big names or something keep using excuses like "Kenny thinks big" or "Kenny flies under the radar" or "Kenny deserves the benefit of the doubt."

I will reserve final judgment until at least spring training or the start of the season, but I would be surprised if anyone uttering these mantras turns out anything but disappointed, because I think, aside from minor moves, what you see right now is what you're gonna get in 2007.

Sargeant79
12-12-2006, 02:26 PM
aside from minor moves, what you see right now is what you're gonna get in 2007.

I think you're probably right. And as long as one of those minor moves is at least one more bullpen arm, I'm fine with that.

Ol' No. 2
12-12-2006, 02:29 PM
I think you're probably right. And as long as one of those minor moves is at least one more bullpen arm, I'm fine with that.Me, too. It's not as if this was a below-.500 team. They don't need a major overhaul...just a few holes to fill.

Their problem last year was not that they didn't have enough talent - it was that the talent they had underperformed. If these guys just return to normal they can beat anybody. I'd like to see them address LF, CF and/or SS, but it's not an absolute necessity.

Sargeant79
12-12-2006, 02:57 PM
If these guys just return to normal they can beat anybody.

Agreed. While players will sometimes have outlier years, most eventually wind up pretty close to their statistical norms when all is said and done. We had a lot of guys who had outlier years last year.

Jermaine Dye is probably not going to duplicate last year's numbers, but neither will Mark Buehrle...his season was so far off his career norms that it's ridiculous. Juan Uribe is a career .258 hitter. It's not likely he will hit .235 again next year. He probably won't hit .280 either, but if he gets back around his career norm and plays defense like he's capable of, I'll take it. The real Scott Podsednik is somewhere between 2005 Pods and 2006 Pods, which should be able to get the job done.

The only thing that scares me is those last 3 bullpen spots. Take care of that and we should be in good shape.

chisoxmike
12-12-2006, 03:00 PM
I think this could happen. Houston would have step it up and propose an overwhelming offer, but from what I've read they sound desperate enough to do just that. Of course KW will have a part B. How about Haegar as the 5th starter until Mark Mulder's rehab is complete. Mulder grew up a Sox fan and may be a good buy low opportunity coming off of his injury. How about a trade for Manny with Boston that puts him in left and Traveras in Center leading off.

Save Freddy, Garland, Pods contracts = 22 million

Spend on Manny, Traveras, Mulder = 26 million with 8 million to Mulder, 18 to Manny and minimum to Traveras. That is assuming no cash comes with Manny which would be nice. Plus, you won't have to trade all of those pitching prospects to Boston so you still will end up with 1 or 2 young arms added to the farm. Also, the guys the Sox would be getting would be under team control for a while.

Traveras
Iguchi
Manny
Thome
Dye
Konerko
AJ
Crede
Uribe

Count
Javier
Mark
Fingernails on a blackboard
Haegar/Phillips/Mulder when he is ready

It all depends on what Boston wants and what Houston is desperate enough to part with. This is just my little idea. KW could come up with even better.

I just threw up in my mouth. God that is awful.

soxtalker
12-12-2006, 03:17 PM
Kenny Williams has told us what this organization's philosophy is right now. The Garcia trade was indicative of it. So were the Houston rumors (I for one do *not* believe there was a subsequent trade in the works for a big-time player) Those of us who hope otherwise in the hope that the Sox go fetch some big names or something keep using excuses like "Kenny thinks big" or "Kenny flies under the radar" or "Kenny deserves the benefit of the doubt."

I will reserve final judgment until at least spring training or the start of the season, but I would be surprised if anyone uttering these mantras turns out anything but disappointed, because I think, aside from minor moves, what you see right now is what you're gonna get in 2007.

I think that you are correct. (I tried to say something similar in an earlier posting in this thread, but you've stated it much more clearly and forcefully.)

I wouldn't rule out a trade of one of our starting pitchers. It's not that I think that Kenny is actively trying to trade them, but his comment about "open for business" leads me to think that he's willing to be blown away by offers for one of them. And by "blown away", I think he'd want some of the several pitching prospects that he has scouted.

Flight #24
12-12-2006, 03:54 PM
Well, looks like it might be at or near and end. Ken Rosenthal is reporting that the trio of Hirsh, Taveras, & Buchholz are on their way to Colorado for Jason Jennings and Miguel Asencio.

The only disappointing part of that is that given that Garland >> Jennings, KW could have gotten a lot more than what's been rumored were a trade to have happened. Still, I'm happier keeping Jon, IMO at this point they probably have enough SP prospect depth to fill in a slot or 2 in the next 1-3 years and they should be able to resign at least 2 of Burls/Jon/Javy/Jose.

caulfield12
12-12-2006, 03:59 PM
Well, looks like it might be at or near and end. Ken Rosenthal is reporting that the trio of Hirsh, Taveras, & Buchholz are on their way to Colorado for Jason Jennings and Miguel Asencio.

The only disappointing part of that is that given that Garland >> Jennings, KW could have gotten a lot more than what's been rumored were a trade to have happened. Still, I'm happier keeping Jon, IMO at this point they probably have enough SP prospect depth to fill in a slot or 2 in the next 1-3 years and they should be able to resign at least 2 of Burls/Jon/Javy/Jose.

Asencio, when he wasn't walking 4 White Sox hitters in a row, looked like he had good stuff and a Daniel Cabrera build before his injuries derailed a promising career.

He was the throw-in, but don't completely overlook him.

soxtalker
12-12-2006, 10:18 PM
Well, looks like it might be at or near and end. Ken Rosenthal is reporting that the trio of Hirsh, Taveras, & Buchholz are on their way to Colorado for Jason Jennings and Miguel Asencio.

The only disappointing part of that is that given that Garland >> Jennings, KW could have gotten a lot more than what's been rumored were a trade to have happened. Still, I'm happier keeping Jon, IMO at this point they probably have enough SP prospect depth to fill in a slot or 2 in the next 1-3 years and they should be able to resign at least 2 of Burls/Jon/Javy/Jose.

Maybe the limitation was that those three were all that Houston was willing to give up. It wouldn't buy Garland, so they went with Jennings.