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View Full Version : Crede being replaced by Fields is a "forgone conclusion?"


SoxxoS
12-10-2006, 12:55 PM
http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/cs-061209sox,1,6672311.story?coll=cs-home-headlines

It's virtually a forgone conclusion that Josh Fields will replace Joe Crede at third base by the time Crede becomes a free agent after 2008.


Is anyone else concerned by this? I mean, Crede has been a White Sox through and through, he has done nothing but improve, and play Gold Glove defense...how can you let him go?

I just don't get it. Fields is nothing but a question mark, as we well know. How can this be justified?

ZombieRob
12-10-2006, 12:58 PM
Simply put $$$....which worries me

Ol' No. 2
12-10-2006, 01:02 PM
http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/cs-061209sox,1,6672311.story?coll=cs-home-headlines



Is anyone else concerned by this? I mean, Crede has been a White Sox through and through, he has done nothing but improve, and play Gold Glove defense...how can you let him go?

I just don't get it. Fields is nothing but a question mark, as we well know. How can this be justified?According to the Cubune, Reinsdorf is in White Flag mode and is dumping everyone and going with youth. If it's in the Cubune, it must be true.

Domeshot17
12-10-2006, 01:12 PM
If Crede is willing to sign for 9 mil per maybe 10, you think about extending him 4 years 40 mil. However, If Crede commands 12-13 million a year, thats why you have Fields, to replace him when he leaves, one way or another

SoxxoS
12-10-2006, 01:15 PM
If Crede is willing to sign for 9 mil per maybe 10, you think about extending him 4 years 40 mil. However, If Crede commands 12-13 million a year, thats why you have Fields, to replace him when he leaves, one way or another

But my view on that is...if that is the market, that is the market. You got to pay market value. He would get that contract for a reason...b/c 3rd base is a premium position, and Crede is a premuim player.

HomeFish
12-10-2006, 01:21 PM
He's a Boras client with a bad back and a problem in his swing. Moreover, he's recently become highly overrated -- see, for instance, the fact that he beat out A-Rod for the Silver Slugger.

Combine this with the current overinflated FA market, and HE GONE.

Ol' No. 2
12-10-2006, 01:28 PM
But my view on that is...if that is the market, that is the market. You got to pay market value. He would get that contract for a reason...b/c 3rd base is a premium position, and Crede is a premuim player.But the question is always "What else could you do with that money?" No matter what the budget is, there's always a finite limit on how much you can spend, so every signing is an exercise in relative value. They have Fields waiting in the wings. Even if he's ultimately not as good a Crede, would the combination of Fields + $10M or other players be better overall? It depends on what the $10M is spent on, but it's an option KW has to consider.

Crede isn't a FA for 2 more years and there's still the question of his back. There's no reason to rush. I'd give it another year and see where things stand then.

CPditka
12-10-2006, 01:46 PM
The problem is Scott Boras its a virtual lock he will come out and start the bidding for crede at 5/75 or 6/90. Which is absoulty insane. A reasonable contract would be 4/36 or 4/40 for his services, remember he still has that back problem which is rather serious. If this is really the case then bye bye Crede have fun with your big contract from your awsome agent playing for the likes of Seattle or Arizona or some other awsome organazation to be a part of.

soxinem1
12-10-2006, 01:46 PM
If it happens it happens. Especially in this era, players come and go like the wind. But that is what drafts are for. In fact in White Sox history, have they ever been known for longetivity? C'mon, Baines and Aparacio, to name a few, spent sizeable parts of their careers with other teams.

Ventura and Crede both came from the farm system and made themselves into excellent 3B. Why can't Fields? His raw tools actually look better than Crede's if you ask me.

It took Crede how many years to finally hit? It was as recently as the early Summer of 2005 when Crede couldn't get a pop up out of the INF, and now he's irreplaceable? He was a slow-developing player and quite honestly, I'm not sold on him yet. It took Crede several years before he developed any consistency, and if he is not hitting, he's not worth keeping.

Why the resistance in allowing our minor leaguers to make the next step? I think Fields is a ML hitter in 2007 and a regular in 2008.

Nobody, even the NYY or BOS is going to have an All-Star at every spot, and you have to give these younger guys a chance.

Some of you should realize that we are not going to get half of another teams roster for one of our players in trades, and that you cannot be afraid to let someone walk if you don't feel they are worth it or fit in your plans. Some of these strategies I hear on these boards will result in the White Sox looking like the SF Giants in a couple years.

I remember reading many notes on Ventura and Crede when they were first drafted and in the minors, and they all said that defense were not strong suits for either player. In fact, many scouts said Ventura would probably become a 1B! Their defense is someting they made on their own. Why can't Fields? If you can't trust a 3B named Fields, who can you trust?

Plus, Crede made the choice of Boras to be his agent, not the White Sox. Boras and the Sox have had a history for some time, and Crede knew this, so if he commands $80 million in two years, let him walk.

Same with Magglio. Same with Uribe. Players pick Boras to represent them because he gets the money, pure and simple.

If he truly wants to remain with the team, he can act on it too. But as Connie Mack, John McGraw and others showed, you have to be able to replace players too, and do it from within sometimes.

Sox Fan 35
12-10-2006, 01:59 PM
He's a Boras client with a bad back and a problem in his swing. Moreover, he's recently become highly overrated -- see, for instance, the fact that he beat out A-Rod for the Silver Slugger.


I don't agree with this. I think Crede winning the Silver Slugger was more about people hating A-Rod.

RedHeadPaleHoser
12-10-2006, 02:37 PM
The only thing that concerns me is how much weight some people are putting into everything the Trib is saying.

Until I see it on a White Sox release (or a confirmed WSI thread), it garners not an ounce of thought. The Trib remains fish wrap.

MHOUSE
12-10-2006, 03:10 PM
Firstly, I am a huge Crede fan. Like everyone, I was down on him when he came up those first couple of years, touted as the next everything at 3rd base and he didn't hit and was basically a flop. Management stuck with him and he was huge on our 2005 world series team and IMO is one of our most clutch hitters the last two years, not to mention his gold glove defense. That said, if Crede was more than $9-10 million per then bye bye.

I think he's likely to turn out like David Bell who had slick defense and solid offensive numbers for a few years, got a big contract (at the time), and then came down to earth and IIRC was injured too once he got to the Phillies and they had to dump him. Buy low, sell high. KW has said he won't be played by the market and will pay what he believes players are worth. I agree with that philosophy. Once the market corrects and we have only reasonable contracts and flexibility, KW will look like a genius.

ondafarm
12-10-2006, 03:11 PM
The Tribune's sports writers collectively have as much baseball insight as your average bowling team.

DumpJerry
12-10-2006, 03:37 PM
I'm not worried about Third. Crede or Fields will do fine.

Crede controls who he signs with, not Borassss. He's been quoted in the past as saying he would change his represensation if Borassss does not agree. Other agents can get Joe a boatload of $$. He also could follow his fellow Missourian (Buehrle) and represent himself and save the 3% agent fee.

Daver
12-10-2006, 03:39 PM
The Tribune's sports writers collectively have as much baseball insight as your average bowling team.

That's an insult to my bowling team.

oeo
12-10-2006, 03:55 PM
Is anyone else concerned by this? I mean, Crede has been a White Sox through and through, he has done nothing but improve, and play Gold Glove defense...how can you let him go?

I just don't get it. Fields is nothing but a question mark, as we well know. How can this be justified?

No. This is Mark Gonzalez' opinion, and quite frankly, I think it stinks.

palehozenychicty
12-10-2006, 04:20 PM
That's an insult to my bowling team.

:rolling:

santo=dorf
12-10-2006, 04:25 PM
Good.

I'm not in favor of throwing a ton of cash at a third baseman with a bad back, whose peak OBP is less than Podsednik in a down year.

His defense is top notch, but he sucks as a hitter. He's just another Juan Uribe with fewer K's because he tends to pop the first pitch up.

Compare Crede's 2006 to Uribe's 2004. Considering the lineups each guy played in and the order in which they hit, it can be argued strongly that Uribe had the better year. I don't recall anyone wanting to throw $40+ million to Uribe after that season.

palehozenychicty
12-10-2006, 04:28 PM
Good.

I'm not in favor of throwing a ton of cash at a third baseman with a bad back, whose peak OBP is less than Podsednik in a down year.

His defense is top notch, but he sucks as a hitter. He's just another Juan Uribe with fewer K's because he tends to pop the first pitch up.

Compare Crede's 2006 to Uribe's 2004. Considering the lineups each guy played in and the order in which they hit, it can be argued strongly that Uribe had the better year. I don't recall anyone wanting to throw $40+ million to Uribe after that season.


Crede is on the clock this year to put up the same numbers. He knows it, and we do. So let's see what happens.

Palehose13
12-10-2006, 04:38 PM
If I were KW I would want to really know what is up with his back before I throw a bunch of money at him. He has refused to have surgery. Crede is one of my favorite players, but KW has to be smart, not sentimental.

TornLabrum
12-10-2006, 04:53 PM
If I were KW I would want to really know what is up with his back before I throw a bunch of money at him. He has refused to have surgery. Crede is one of my favorite players, but KW has to be smart, not sentimental.

I know what I'm doing if I'm KW and Crede doesn't have the surgery. I'm rolling out the welcome mat for Josh Fields.

chisoxfanatic
12-10-2006, 04:58 PM
I'm not worried about Third. Crede or Fields will do fine.

Crede controls who he signs with, not Borassss. He's been quoted in the past as saying he would change his represensation if Borassss does not agree. Other agents can get Joe a boatload of $$. He also could follow his fellow Missourian (Buehrle) and represent himself and save the 3% agent fee.

I've heard that in a few good sources as well. The thing is Crede absolutely loves playing here and knows that he's a fan favorite and is greatly appreciative of that. I think it only helps that Pierzynski is here for at least a couple more years, since the two of them are buddies.

ondafarm
12-10-2006, 04:59 PM
That's an insult to my bowling team.

It is and I apologize.

ondafarm
12-10-2006, 05:06 PM
I've heard that in a few good sources as well. The thing is Crede absolutely loves playing here and knows that he's a fan favorite and is greatly appreciative of that. I think it only helps that Pierzynski is here for at least a couple more years, since the two of them are buddies.

Honestly, buddies just don't do that much for longevity once you are in the majors. I've always been with teams that generally like each other, but I knew guys on teams that absolutely hated each other and yet they stayed together in spite of that. Of course, as a catcher, I went out of my way to use that against them.

MrX
12-10-2006, 05:32 PM
I don't know if it's a foregone conclusion but KW is on record saying, during an ESPN radio interview, right now he doesn't see them coming to an agreement.

jabrch
12-10-2006, 05:36 PM
I just don't get it. Fields is nothing but a question mark, as we well know. How can this be justified?

They said this about lots of guys in the past. Crede will be presented with the opportunity to stay IF HE WANTS TO. If he ways 6 years and 110mm, he won't find it here. But if he wants a deal in the vicinity of Konerko's, he will likely have the opportunity to stay.

This is pretty easy for KW. Offer Crede a ton of money, and good security. If he wants more money, and more security, you trade him for the best possible package to build your franchise's future.

There is absolutely nothing to get excited about. The ball is in Joe's court and the decision is his and his family's.

If he chooses to leave for a huger deal, we are ready to go with Fields. Yes, he's a question mark. But as good as Joe Crede is, we aren't going to pay him 18mm a year for 6 years.

Flight #24
12-10-2006, 06:24 PM
Look, if payroll stays roughly the same or increases, it's hard to call the Sox cheap, even if they do let some guys go. Because by definition, that means they're redeploying that $$$.

That doesn't mean they're making smart decisions, but it does mean they're not being cheap.

KyWhiSoxFan
12-10-2006, 06:59 PM
I'm not worried about Third. Crede or Fields will do fine.

Crede controls who he signs with, not Borassss. He's been quoted in the past as saying he would change his represensation if Borassss does not agree. Other agents can get Joe a boatload of $$. He also could follow his fellow Missourian (Buehrle) and represent himself and save the 3% agent fee.

MLBPA does not limit agents fee. It can be more than 3%. The only criteria on limitation of the fee is that a player's final salary cannot equal or dip below the minimum salary after the fee to the agent is paid. Plus, an agent gets a substantial commission, something like 20%, on all other business--endorsements--he can get for a player outside the contract.

Grzegorz
12-10-2006, 07:18 PM
Let's just see what the market is for Crede and worry at that point. I believe in Joe Crede bad back and all. Given rest from time to time he's a top flight third baseman. He simply faded at the end on the year because he was tired and his back bothered him.

Maybe using Mackowiak at third to spell Crede from time to time instead of running him out in CF exclusively would have been better for the team down the stretch.

The White Sox are not cheap; they're playing their cards well in an hyper inflated market.

Jeez, the board is in turmoil because of what two sportswriters write about the team?

cheezheadsoxfan
12-10-2006, 07:25 PM
[quote=Grzegorz;1437013]
Maybe using Mackowiak at third to spell Crede from time to time instead of running him out in CF exclusively would have been better for the team down the stretch.

quote]

:yup:

Bucky F. Dent
12-10-2006, 07:53 PM
Consider the source. I'm suprised that any writer for the Trib knows who Fields is!

TheOldRoman
12-10-2006, 07:58 PM
But the question is always "What else could you do with that money?" No matter what the budget is, there's always a finite limit on how much you can spend, so every signing is an exercise in relative value. They have Fields waiting in the wings. Even if he's ultimately not as good a Crede, would the combination of Fields + $10M or other players be better overall? It depends on what the $10M is spent on, but it's an option KW has to consider.

Crede isn't a FA for 2 more years and there's still the question of his back. There's no reason to rush. I'd give it another year and see where things stand then.
No, that is far too rational. We need a decision NOW.

nccwsfan
12-10-2006, 08:05 PM
If I were KW I would want to really know what is up with his back before I throw a bunch of money at him. He has refused to have surgery. Crede is one of my favorite players, but KW has to be smart, not sentimental.

Agree on both points. If it's a smart decision for KW to re-sign Crede he'll do so, but only after making certain his back is OK.

The "the White Sox are going cheap again" is simply inacccurate. Kenny Williams said it very clearly- they are waiting for a correction in the market before acting. This happened in 2000, 2001, 2002, when teams were signing players to ridiculous contracts. The market ended up correcting itself in 2004 & 2005- making it easier to sign the right players to the right contracts. There's no need to jump the gun now and sign players to bad deals that ruin the short future- let the dust settle and see what comes of it.

If Joe stays I'm thrilled- if he leaves I'm looking forward to Josh Fields become our 3B for the future.

DumpJerry
12-10-2006, 09:46 PM
MLBPA does not limit agents fee. It can be more than 3%. The only criteria on limitation of the fee is that a player's final salary cannot equal or dip below the minimum salary after the fee to the agent is paid. Plus, an agent gets a substantial commission, something like 20%, on all other business--endorsements--he can get for a player outside the contract.
I never said th CBA limited the fee agents charge. Generally, they charge around 3-5% of the contract. They also provide investment/financial planning services for which they obtain higher fees.

Of course, 3% of $100,000,000 is pretty good pocket change.

maurice
12-11-2006, 12:46 PM
It's virtually a forgone conclusion that Josh Fields will replace Joe Crede at third base by the time Crede becomes a free agent after 2008.

The great Tom Skilling can't tell me what the weather will be like next Monday.

Why would I trust some far lesser Trib. Co. employee to tell me who the Sox will start at 3B in 2009?

bigfoot
12-11-2006, 07:52 PM
Consider the source. I'm suprised that any writer for the Trib knows who Fields is!
Perhaps this is the "Fields" the Cubune people were referring?
http://www.bpcbakbusconf.com/gifs/DebbiFields.jpeg

progers13
12-11-2006, 09:38 PM
Dangit, Dave, you know how to hurt a guy.

Daver
12-11-2006, 09:40 PM
Dangit, Dave, you know how to hurt a guy.

Nothing personal.


:wink:

SouthSide_HitMen
12-12-2006, 06:31 AM
Perhaps this is the "Fields" the Cubune people were referring?
http://www.bpcbakbusconf.com/gifs/DebbiFields.jpeg

http://img145.imageshack.us/img145/6093/kims3bdb0.jpg (http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/)

You take them both, and there you have the facts of life....

Patience everyone. The Tribune is as credible as ESPN. In other words, they have zero credibility.

Crede should get his $5 million or so this off-season and lets see how this plays out from there.

Also, someone mentioned Crede's back surgery. IIRC, both the club and Crede were in agreement that avoiding surgery was the best option this off-season and that Joe would instead concentrate on off-season conditioning. I agree the back is a concern for a long term deal but I would not hold avoiding surgery against Joe as that what both parties agreed to, at least publicly.

maurice
12-12-2006, 12:44 PM
Dangit, Dave, you know how to hurt a guy.

You think that hurts? Another baseless "Kenny is White Flagging the '07 Season" article from y'all, and he might use the bow next time.
:redneck

MRM
12-14-2006, 07:47 PM
I don't agree with this. I think Crede winning the Silver Slugger was more about people hating A-Rod.

Nah, they were just throwing him a bone after screwing him out the gold glove he should have won.

norsepalehoser
12-14-2006, 07:52 PM
Maybe a young team isn't so bad. Look at what the Flordia Marlins did this year with a bunch of rookies. The NL wasn't the best it could be, but they still had a respectable year. Having a young team might be better in the long haul.