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WizardsofOzzie
12-10-2006, 12:55 PM
Per ESPN:
Negotiations between the team and the Japanese star pitcher have nearly broken down, the Boston Herald reported Sunday. A source familiar with the situation told the Herald late Saturday that unless "there is an abrupt change of course," the Red Sox will not strike a deal with Matsuzaka before the deadline midnight Thursday.
Attempts to reach Matsuzaka's agent, Scott Boras, were unsuccessful. The source blamed Boras for a lack of interest in the negotiations.

The initial offer made by the Red Sox was believed to be between $7-8 million a year for four-six years, but Boras was reportedly asking for nearly $15 million a year

That's just Boras being Boras

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2692964

buehrle4cy05
12-10-2006, 01:22 PM
Well, this is good on two levels:

1. The Red Sox won't get someone who appears to be a staff ace.

2. Scott Bora$$ will get blamed for Matsuzaka being sent back to Japan. IMO, he's more concenred with convincing the Mets and Rangers that there are 3 other "mystery teams" involved in the bidding for Barry Zito. He was probably hoping to get Zito signed to a $100 million deal before he was going to work on Matsuzaka.

Fenway
12-10-2006, 01:26 PM
wake me when it's over please :?:

Tumblin’ Dice: Red Sox’ talks with Matsuzaka break down
(http://redsox.bostonherald.com/redSox/view.bg?articleid=171334)By Michael Silverman
Negotiations between the Red Sox and Japanese pitcher Daisuke Matsuzaka have essentially broken down, a source familiar with the talks said late...

and Sean McAdam made the following claim on WEEI

If they can't make a deal with Matsuzaka they are prepared to offer Roger Clemens $25 Million for 1 year

WizardsofOzzie
12-10-2006, 01:51 PM
It cracks me up that Boras insists that this guy is one of the top 5 pitchers in the league, before he's even thrown a damn pitch in the major leagues!!!! Japan is a far cry from the majors.....ask Hideki Irabu

Ol' No. 2
12-10-2006, 01:52 PM
This is a game of chicken. Everybody loses if no deal is struck, which is why they'll stop posturing and get busy right before the deadline. Until then it will be more of the same.

CLR01
12-10-2006, 02:58 PM
It cracks me up that Boras insists that this guy is one of the top 5 pitchers in the league, before he's even thrown a damn pitch in the major leagues!!!! Japan is a far cry from the majors.....ask Hideki Irabu

Why shouldn't Bora$$ claim it and ask for $15 million? Boston gave him all the power when Theo and the ownership tattoed desperate across their forehead and bid $50 million dollars to talk. I find it to be hilarious.

RedHeadPaleHoser
12-10-2006, 03:39 PM
Why shouldn't Bora$$ claim it and ask for $15 million? Boston gave him all the power when Theo and the ownership tattoed desperate across their forehead and bid $50 million dollars to talk. I find it to be hilarious.

Agreed. Boston is AS MUCH to blame for this as Bora$$.

palehozenychicty
12-10-2006, 05:26 PM
Like I said, the Arod redux is in full effect. Matsuzaka to the Yankees in 07.

jabrch
12-10-2006, 06:42 PM
This is a game of chicken. Everybody loses if no deal is struck, which is why they'll stop posturing and get busy right before the deadline. Until then it will be more of the same.


I actually think Boston WINS if no deal is struck. They will then have 51mm + contract money (sounds like about 30mm) to spend on other pitching. 80mm might get them Zito. (not a good match with Fenway - but that's another story)

If they sign him to a deal that Boras wants, it will be about 4/60mm. Add to that the 51 they paid, and that brings it to 4/111mm. That's 28mm for a guy who hasnt thrown a pitch in MLB. Even using the midpoint between Boston and Boras you still are talking about over 25mm a year. In my eyes, not getting him is a win for Boston.

I didn't believe that a deal was going to get done when I saw this posting fee. To me, this was nothing more than Boston blocking the Yankees. I am sure that Boras, NYM, Seibu will protest to the Commish and ask him to deem their offer insufficient (or whatever the burden is that the rules require) and try to have the deal handed to the second highest bidder. I hope he tells them to stuff it.

jabrch
12-10-2006, 06:44 PM
Why shouldn't Bora$$ claim it and ask for $15 million? Boston gave him all the power when Theo and the ownership tattoed desperate across their forehead and bid $50 million dollars to talk. I find it to be hilarious.

CLR - I don't see how Boras and Matsuzaka have ANY power. If they don't accept what Theo gives them, their client will almost surely not pitch in the US this year, and will have to go back to Japan. To me, Boston holds all the trump cards here - which they paid a 51mm ante for.

The Immigrant
12-10-2006, 07:07 PM
CLR - I don't see how Boras and Matsuzaka have ANY power. If they don't accept what Theo gives them, their client will almost surely not pitch in the US this year, and will have to go back to Japan. To me, Boston holds all the trump cards here - which they paid a 51mm ante for.

They have plenty of power. Why should Matsuzaka accept $7 million a year when Jason Marquis is getting that kind of money from the Cubs? Remember, he's not receiving any of the $51 million posting fee. If the Red Sox are unwilling to give him a market deal (in addition to the posting fee), both he and Boras would be better off if he spent another year in Japan and then returned to the market next year without the posting fee. Is there any doubt he would get at least $12/year on the open market?

cwsfannick
12-10-2006, 07:16 PM
Is there any chance that Boston made the big bid with no intention of signing him, unless it was on the cheap and keeping him away from the Yanks. The way I see this it is a win / win situation for the Red Sox. If they sign him it is on the organization's terms and not Boras bidding ploy. If they don't he goes back to Japan, the claim money goes back to Boston and the Yanks don't have a chance to claim this guy until next year.

fquaye149
12-10-2006, 07:46 PM
All I could see was "Matsuzaka talks slowly" and I was going to be like "give the guy a break---he doesn't speak english that well, if at all"

jabrch
12-10-2006, 08:10 PM
They have plenty of power. Why should Matsuzaka accept $7 million a year when Jason Marquis is getting that kind of money from the Cubs? Remember, he's not receiving any of the $51 million posting fee. If the Red Sox are unwilling to give him a market deal (in addition to the posting fee), both he and Boras would be better off if he spent another year in Japan and then returned to the market next year without the posting fee. Is there any doubt he would get at least $12/year on the open market?

But that's the point, they have no options. If they don't take the 7mm, they can go back to Japan. They'd have to post him next year too - he's not a FA until 2008. They have absolutely no options other than that. The power is all in the hands of the team that temporarily owns his exclusive rights.

Baby Fisk
12-10-2006, 08:28 PM
ZZZZZZZZZ...This is so "November". Time to catch up with "December" and start obsessing over Wither The Rocket, zzzzzzzzz....

The Immigrant
12-10-2006, 08:48 PM
But that's the point, they have no options. If they don't take the 7mm, they can go back to Japan. They'd have to post him next year too - he's not a FA until 2008. They have absolutely no options other than that. The power is all in the hands of the team that temporarily owns his exclusive rights.

http://mlb.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/news/article.jsp?ymd=20061127&content_id=1746510&vkey=hotstove2006&fext=.jsp

He's an unrestricted free agent after the 2007 season, not 2008, which means that if he is not happy with the deal the Red Sox are offering he can return to Japan, pitch another season, and then hit the open market without a posting fee and with the freedom to sign with the highest bidder.

Sounds to me like he and Boras are the ones with all the power.

Flight #24
12-10-2006, 09:29 PM
IIRC, he makes about $2.5-3M/y in Japan. So even if it is 2 years (and I've seen conflicting reports in different places about that), his alternatives are:

- take a $7M/yr deal
- Make $5-6M in Japan for 2 years, then shoot for a $15-20M/yr deal

Now there's obviously risk involved in the latter option. But you'd better believe that at the difference in $$ they're currently talking, the Red Sox will have to pony up significant extra cash to outweigh the benefits of sitting out.

If it is indeed 1 year, then it's a real no-brainer. And if it is 2, I wonder what the possibilities are for him to "buy himself out" after 1 instead of getting posted again.

russ99
12-10-2006, 09:41 PM
But that's the point, they have no options. If they don't take the 7mm, they can go back to Japan. They'd have to post him next year too - he's not a FA until 2008. They have absolutely no options other than that. The power is all in the hands of the team that temporarily owns his exclusive rights.

I read somewhere that if the Red Sox don't sign him by the deadline, that all the other MLB teams get a crack at him. The 51 million was just for exclusive bargaining rights. Not that I'm advocating that the Sox do the stupid thing and go after him.

bigfoot
12-10-2006, 10:37 PM
Is there any chance that Boston made the big bid with no intention of signing him, unless it was on the cheap and keeping him away from the Yanks. The way I see this it is a win / win situation for the Red Sox. If they sign him it is on the organization's terms and not Boras bidding ploy. If they don't he goes back to Japan, the claim money goes back to Boston and the Yanks don't have a chance to claim this guy until next year.

Should Boston not sign Matsuzaka, they could seal their fate of EVER dealing in the Asian market for quite some time. With Japan/Taiwan emerging as a fertile ground for proven talent, and the YankMees already an established player in the region, Boston could be left in the dust by several of the East Div teams.

jabrch
12-10-2006, 11:19 PM
Sounds to me like he and Boras are the ones with all the power.

I still have no idea what power they have. They can take what they are offered, or go back to Japan. They have no leverage. Boston probably doesn't want the guy at 15mm per for 4 years which becomes over $27mm per if you add in the posting fee.

Matsuzaka and Boras have no position of strength. If they are unhappy with the offer, he goes back to Seibu. They have all the risk in the world that something happens to him prior to after the 2007 (thanks for correcting me) season.

jabrch
12-10-2006, 11:20 PM
I read somewhere that if the Red Sox don't sign him by the deadline, that all the other MLB teams get a crack at him. The 51 million was just for exclusive bargaining rights. Not that I'm advocating that the Sox do the stupid thing and go after him.

That's untrue.

If he is not signed by Boston, he goes back to Japan for at least one full season.

peeonwrigley
12-11-2006, 12:44 AM
If he doesn't get a satisfactory contract is there any chance the guy just sits in '07, or is that not an option for him?

DSpivack
12-11-2006, 01:06 AM
If he doesn't get a satisfactory contract is there any chance the guy just sits in '07, or is that not an option for him?

Seems to me Seibu would pretty damn upset if a deal doesn't get done, as either they get $51 mil now or nothing in a year. He's been a good pitcher in Japan, but no one is worth the $51 mil they wouldn't get by him not striking a deal with the Red Sox. It would end up being a very awkard situation, I would think.

StillMissOzzie
12-11-2006, 03:11 AM
I actually think Boston WINS if no deal is struck. They will then have 51mm + contract money (sounds like about 30mm) to spend on other pitching. 80mm might get them Zito. (not a good match with Fenway - but that's another story)

I didn't believe that a deal was going to get done when I saw this posting fee. To me, this was nothing more than Boston blocking the Yankees. I am sure that Boras, NYM, Seibu will protest to the Commish and ask him to deem their offer insufficient (or whatever the burden is that the rules require) and try to have the deal handed to the second highest bidder. I hope he tells them to stuff it.

I do accept that there is some truth to the thought that Boston had "desperate" stamped on their forehead when they posted the $50M, but I also think that there is some truth to blocking the Yankees.

They have plenty of power. Why should Matsuzaka accept $7 million a year when Jason Marquis is getting that kind of money from the Cubs? Remember, he's not receiving any of the $51 million posting fee. If the Red Sox are unwilling to give him a market deal (in addition to the posting fee), both he and Boras would be better off if he spent another year in Japan and then returned to the market next year without the posting fee. Is there any doubt he would get at least $12/year on the open market?
I disagree. Why should Matsuzaka, as unproven MLB material, be treated the same as even mediocre MLB talent? Until he's proven something against the best hitters in the world, why should he be paid as though he already is?

If he doesn't get a satisfactory contract is there any chance the guy just sits in '07, or is that not an option for him?

I don't see how a year of inactivity would advance his cause any, and IIRC about the posting process, if there is no deal, he is still the property of the Japanese team anyhow.

SMO
:gulp:

jabrch
12-11-2006, 07:26 AM
If he doesn't get a satisfactory contract is there any chance the guy just sits in '07, or is that not an option for him?

He wouldn't sit - because he wouldn't get his year of Japanese service time and would then be property of Seibu still, and be posted again. If this falls apart, he will be a Lion (or they could trade him to some other Japanese team).

Fenway
12-11-2006, 09:38 AM
The Boston Herald is now reporting that Boras is not moving from his opening figure. This will almost certainly wind up in Selig's lap.

Sox, Boras still at odds: Matsuzaka talks on hold
(http://redsox.bostonherald.com/redSox/view.bg?articleid=171439)By Jeff Horrigan
Talks between the Red Sox and the agent representing Daisuke Matsuzaka were limited and unproductive over the weekend, increasing the possibility that the Seibu...

Boras and Red Sox general manager Theo Epstein (http://news.bostonherald.com/search/?keyword=Theo+Epstein&searchSite=recent) could not be reached for comment, but it is believed the organization views the agent’s approach as a stall tactic geared toward making sure Matsuzaka returns to Japan. By doing that, he could challenge a flawed posting system or bring the pitcher back to the United States as a complete free agent after the 2008 season.

The Immigrant
12-11-2006, 10:09 AM
Why should Matsuzaka, as unproven MLB material, be treated the same as even mediocre MLB talent? Until he's proven something against the best hitters in the world, why should he be paid as though he already is?

I agree with this statement in principle, but unfortunately that's not how the market works. Matsuzaka has shown enough to make people believe that he is the real deal, to a point where Boras believes his market worth is greater than Zito's. In fact, if Matsuzaka hit the open market tomorrow I think he would get a better deal than Zito. It's crazy, but that's how perverted this year's free agent market for pitchers has become. At the same time, as much as I detest Boras and everything he stands for, it is mildly amusing to see him holding Epstein, Lucchino and Co. over a barrel in such a public fashion. Steinbrenner must be laughing his pants off.

Flight #24
12-11-2006, 10:25 AM
I still have no idea what power they have. They can take what they are offered, or go back to Japan. They have no leverage. Boston probably doesn't want the guy at 15mm per for 4 years which becomes over $27mm per if you add in the posting fee.

Matsuzaka and Boras have no position of strength. If they are unhappy with the offer, he goes back to Seibu. They have all the risk in the world that something happens to him prior to after the 2007 (thanks for correcting me) season.

It's the same argument that's been made a number of times regarding draft picks. They can sign or they can sit & wait. And Bora$ has proven that he's willing to have them sit. And for them, the alternative is almost always far worse than it is for Matsuzaka. At least he'll continue to make his $2.5-3M in Japan plus endorsements. And depending on how much he's made already, he may be more willing to roll the dice on the big payday.

If he's free after '07, and he pretty much knows he can get 4-yrs/$80M (based on $51M posting fee plus $28M contract offer), he's in pretty good shape to tay in Japan a year and tack on the $50+M to his deal. Factoring in the invincibility sense that most top-tier athletes seem to have and it's a no-brainer from his position.

If it's '08, that's more of a question mark, but it's still a pretty viable option, IMO.

Fenway
12-11-2006, 10:40 AM
WEEI is speaking to a host at an all sports station in Toyko. This person claims Matsuzaka can't come back as he has already said goodbye to his fans. In Japan losing face with people is more important than money.

The Lions don't want him back either as 51 Million pays payroll for 2 years.

Flight #24
12-11-2006, 10:48 AM
The Boston Herald is now reporting that Boras is not moving from his opening figure. This will almost certainly wind up in Selig's lap.

If Matsuzaka is in line with Boras, I'm not sure exactly what the commish can do. As long as the player is willing to go back to Japan, they're working within the system and Selig can't force him to sign with the Red Sox.

Now if they try something like Boras buying out the Lions or something, that's where the commish could step in. But short of that, not sure what his power is here.

Seems to me that the Red Sox bid a huge amount anticipating that they could get the Lions to kick some back to keep the contract reasonable. If MLB holds to it's stance that that's not allowed, it's a tactical error on Boston's part, although they'd still have effectively blocked the Yanks form him.

Regardless, seems to me that Boras has a legitimate argument that his client shouldn't settle for $8M when Gil freakin Meche gets more than that. I know he's not a true FA, but from a value standpoint, he's got a point and if he's willing to live with the alternative to signing that type of deal, more power to him.

Flight #24
12-11-2006, 10:50 AM
WEEI is speaking to a host at an all sports station in Toyko. This person claims Matsuzaka can't come back as he has already said goodbye to his fans. In Japan losing face with people is more important than money.

The Lions don't want him back either as 51 Million pays payroll for 2 years.

"I really wanted to go to US and prove myself against their leagues. But when the Red Sox insulted me by treating me like a journeyman pitcher, it made me realize that it will be a big step to leave my fans and country and that I didn't want to leave for just any situation. I prefer to wait, continue to support my team, fans, and country with my best efforts, and if an ideal scenario presents itself in the future, I will consider it at that time."

Was that really so hard? You think Bora$$ can't craft something like that?

Fenway
12-11-2006, 10:56 AM
"I really wanted to go to US and prove myself against their leagues. But when the Red Sox insulted me by treating me like a journeyman pitcher, it made me realize that it will be a big step to leave my fans and country and that I didn't want to leave for just any situation. I prefer to wait, continue to support my team, fans, and country with my best efforts, and if an ideal scenario presents itself in the future, I will consider it at that time."

Was that really so hard? You think Bora$$ can't craft something like that?

Oh he could....but to be honest we as Americans don't really understand the culture in Japan.

You really think the owners of the Lions are going to want to send $51 Million back to Boston???

Flight #24
12-11-2006, 11:02 AM
Oh he could....but to be honest we as Americans don't really understand the culture in Japan.

You really think the owners of the Lions are going to want to send $51 Million back to Boston???

Do they really have an option? I'm sure they'd kick in $$$ if allowed, but if not - they can pressure Matsuzaka all they want, but I'd bet Bora$$ has been prepping him for this very situation from the beginning. I'd be very surprised if things haven't gone exactly as he'd projected. Either it's all a game and he's trying to take it to the wire and they'll take whatever they can get at that point, or he's willing to sit out. Either way, I'd bet Daisuke's in on it & fully informed.

Fenway
12-11-2006, 11:19 AM
Boston Globe update

http://www.boston.com/sports/baseball/redsox/extras/extra_bases/

With Thursday's deadline for signing Daisuke Matsuzaka looming, the Red Sox are in a position of wondering, as one well-placed source said yesterday, whether agent Scott Boras is "running out the clock'' on negotiations.
Talks over the weekend moved at a glacial pace, with the Sox, as of Sunday night, still awaiting the semblance of a counter-offer from Boras to the comprehensive offer they made at least 10 days ago. Boras had pledged late last week that the Sox would hear directly from Matsuzaka, who flew in from Tokyo on Saturday, but there was no public indication that has yet to happen. Indeed, frustrated Sox officials were privately wondering whether the player was aware that Boras so far had not made a counter-offer.

Ol' No. 2
12-11-2006, 01:17 PM
Boston Globe update

http://www.boston.com/sports/baseball/redsox/extras/extra_bases/

With Thursday's deadline for signing Daisuke Matsuzaka looming, the Red Sox are in a position of wondering, as one well-placed source said yesterday, whether agent Scott Boras is "running out the clock'' on negotiations.
Talks over the weekend moved at a glacial pace, with the Sox, as of Sunday night, still awaiting the semblance of a counter-offer from Boras to the comprehensive offer they made at least 10 days ago. Boras had pledged late last week that the Sox would hear directly from Matsuzaka, who flew in from Tokyo on Saturday, but there was no public indication that has yet to happen. Indeed, frustrated Sox officials were privately wondering whether the player was aware that Boras so far had not made a counter-offer.This is posturing. Nothing more. Expect more of the same until late Wednesday when a deal will be struck.

Fenway
12-11-2006, 01:30 PM
This is posturing. Nothing more. Expect more of the same until late Wednesday when a deal will be struck.

Gordon Edes of the Boston Globe just had an online chat about this

http://chats.boston.com/n/pfx/forum.aspx?nav=auditorium&webtag=bc-gordonedes

he makes a valid point about why Boars is demanding so much
Chowdah, ridiculous is in the eye of the beholder. How do you define ridiculous in a market in which 11-game-winner Gil Meche can be paid $55 million and Jason Marquis, left off the Cardinals' postseason roster, draws $20 million from the Cubs. There's no question that the Red Sox and Seibu want to get this done, but whether Dice-K has taken a hit of the Boras Koolaid and is willing to sit this one out, that's the big question

jabrch
12-11-2006, 01:54 PM
It's the same argument that's been made a number of times regarding draft picks. They can sign or they can sit & wait. And Bora$ has proven that he's willing to have them sit.

But if your first round pick doesn't sign, you lose it. (yeah, there is some compensation - but it isn't the same as a high draft pick, and it sets you back a year. Boston has nothing invested in him, other than a big boat of cash that they get back assuming he doesn't sign.

If I were Theo, there'd be no way I'd pay over 25mm per year for this guy, combining the posting fee and the salary.

If he wants to go back to Japan for one more year, then come here and compete on the FA market against other pitchers without this posting fee hanging over his head, that's fine. But for now, screw Seibu. Screw Boston. Screw the Mets. Screw Boras. Send him back home without any fruitcup.

jabrch
12-11-2006, 01:57 PM
"But when the Red Sox insulted me by treating me like a journeyman pitcher"


And my mock response would be, "You are not a FA. You are an exclusive property of the Boston Red Sox. Nobody insulted you at all you arrogant pile of crap. You were offered more than twice what you are going back to Japan to make. Your agent screwed you - and it was your fault for chosing him.

Flight #24
12-11-2006, 02:33 PM
But if your first round pick doesn't sign, you lose it. (yeah, there is some compensation - but it isn't the same as a high draft pick, and it sets you back a year. Boston has nothing invested in him, other than a big boat of cash that they get back assuming he doesn't sign.

If I were Theo, there'd be no way I'd pay over 25mm per year for this guy, combining the posting fee and the salary.

You're looking at it from Boston's view only. From Matsuzaka/Boras, it is pretty analogous to a draftee: You have the opportunity to negotiate with 1 team only and your option is to sit out a year and play independent league ball. Daisuke has a bit more risk because he'd actually pitch competitively, but his fallback also provides him with millions in addition to the millions he's already earned (which insures him from catastrophic risk scenarios).

And my mock response would be, "You are not a FA. You are an exclusive property of the Boston Red Sox. Nobody insulted you at all you arrogant pile of crap. You were offered more than twice what you are going back to Japan to make. Your agent screwed you - and it was your fault for chosing him.
Right. But as the Japanese public, who do you think is more likely to be believed? That's all he really needs - for the fan base to go back to doing what they probably want to do in the first place: root for him.

jabrch
12-11-2006, 04:33 PM
You're looking at it from Boston's view only.

Absolutely true. Because they hold the bargaining power. If this thing falls through, the Sawx get 51mm back. They have all the cards.


From Matsuzaka/Boras, it is pretty analogous to a draftee: You have the opportunity to negotiate with 1 team only and your option is to sit out a year and play independent league ball. Daisuke has a bit more risk because he'd actually pitch competitively, but his fallback also provides him with millions in addition to the millions he's already earned (which insures him from catastrophic risk scenarios).

If that's a viable option for them, they better be prepared to do it. Theo isn't going to net out spending over 25mm a year for four years for a guy who has never thrown a pitch in the majors. That would be absoloutely nuts.

Right. But as the Japanese public, who do you think is more likely to be believed? That's all he really needs - for the fan base to go back to doing what they probably want to do in the first place: root for him.

The fans of Seibu will welcome him back with open arms either way. Fans are fans. And getting one of the best pitchers ever in their game back will not be frowned up. There will be no issues around "saving face".

The biggest loser here is Seibu, a company in financial peril who will lose out on a huge financial windfall and will get nothing for him when he walks eventually. The winner will be MLB and the Sawx. It will expose the terrible system in place today as a complete fraud and will revamp the posting system, but Seibu needs the money now.

White Sox Randy
12-11-2006, 05:12 PM
I have to think that a deal gets done.

This pitcher WANTS to pitch here, that's the whole point. He doesn't want to pitch in Japan anymore so I think that he will pressure BORASS to get a deal done.

CLR01
12-11-2006, 05:21 PM
If that's a viable option for them, they better be prepared to do it. Theo isn't going to net out spending over 25mm a year for four years for a guy who has never thrown a pitch in the majors. That would be absoloutely nuts.

It would also be absolutely nuts for Theo and crew to pay $50 million just for the opportunity to negotiate a deal with Matsuzaka but they went ahead and did that anyway.


Absolutely true. Because they hold the bargaining power. If this thing falls through, the Sawx get 51mm back. They have all the cards.


And they will have also wasted a month negotiating with one player while other pitching options (some horrible, some mediocre, some good but still options) that they need have signed elsewhere.

jabrch
12-11-2006, 05:23 PM
It would also be absolutely nuts for Theo and crew to pay $50 million just for the opportunity to negotiate a deal with Matsuzaka but they went ahead and did that anyway.

But they get it all back if nothing happens - so they effectively didn't.


And they will have also wasted a month negotiating with one player while other pitching options (some horrible, some mediocre, some good but still options) that they need have signed elsewhere.

I highly doubt they have been just standing pat and not engaging in any discussions about pitching.


BTW, CLR, saw your Sig. I was at the game on Sunday and watched the Phins lay a total beatdown on the Pats. It was fun.

CLR01
12-11-2006, 05:31 PM
I highly doubt they have been just standing pat and not engaging in any discussions about pitching.

But are they willing to sign a decent pitcher to a high $$$ contract when they still may end up signing this guy to another $75 million (likely the minimum) contract? If they had dumped Manny maybe. It would be great if Zito signs with someone Wednesday. :smile:


BTW, CLR, saw your Sig. I was at the game on Sunday and watched the Phins lay a total beatdown on the Pats. It was fun.

After 40 years, Miami dominating the Pats gets kind of boring but I'm glad you enjoyed it. :D:

Flight #24
12-11-2006, 05:33 PM
Absolutely true. Because they hold the bargaining power. If this thing falls through, the Sawx get 51mm back. They have all the cards. At the same time, they don't get the player now, and all guesses are that in the future, he'd end up in NY. The Sawx are hurting for pitching, with question marks all over their "rotation". Their loss is the player. Meanwhile, Matsuzaka has a ton to gain: roughly $51M worth. And his downside is limited because unless he's been foolish, he's got a few millions saved up (and will earn $3M more this year), so it's not like he'll be out on the street in the slim chance that he gets hurt in Japan next year.

IMO the Sawx don't hold all the bargaining power, because both sides have potential alternatives.

If that's a viable option for them, they better be prepared to do it. Theo isn't going to net out spending over 25mm a year for four years for a guy who has never thrown a pitch in the majors. That would be absoloutely nuts.


That question's already been answered, by bidding $51M just to talk to the guy (and by paying a 110-130 game JDL Drew $14M/yr). Basically, in order for them not to make him among the highest paid players in the game, they HAVE to get him signed at journeyman rates. Given all the hype about this guy, I find it hard to beleive that they didn't bid knowing it would take more than they're offering. I think it was their miscalculation that they could get Seibu to kick in $$$.

Look at Boras' history, he's held out tons of guys with far worse fallback positions than this. A guy who's made millions holding out to try and add $50M to his deal is far more likely than a kid with little to no $$$ holding out for his first few mil. The latter has been done by Boras, I wouldn't be at all surprised if we now see the former since it's a far easier sell to the player.

Navarro's Talent
12-11-2006, 06:10 PM
I think there will be a deal. The Red Sox have already spent over $50 million just to talk with the guy (unless, there's no deal struck), so I don't see why they would be reluctanct to spend now. They have the money, and if they don't sign him now, he might be a Yankee in 2008.

BeviBall!
12-11-2006, 07:28 PM
I think there will be a deal. The Red Sox have already spent over $50 million just to talk with the guy (unless, there's no deal struck), so I don't see why they would be reluctanct to spend now. They have the money, and if they don't sign him now, he might be a Yankee in 2008.

I think they get the $$$ back if they don't sign him.

CLR01
12-11-2006, 07:38 PM
I think they get the $$$ back if they don't sign him.

Which is probably why he said unless there's no deal struck. :dunno:

soxfanreggie
12-12-2006, 03:12 AM
I hope they don't give into him, but if they do, I wouldn't mind seeing him be a flop. This posting fee was outrageous. I can see fairly compensating a team like the Devil Rays did...but $50 million...that's more than some payrolls here...

However, the Red Sox screwed themselves bidding so high. Every million they give to the club is a millions less he gets. Having Bora$$ as an agent also hurts too. Nobody is going to want to negotiate with this guy. If it wouldn't be "collusion", I'd say freeze him out.

Fenway
12-12-2006, 09:14 AM
it is starting to get ugly

WEB EXCLUSIVE: Boras demands way out of line (http://www.boston.com/sports/baseball/redsox/articles/2006/12/12/boras_demands_way_out_of_line)
(By Nick Cafardo, Globe Staff) When Scott Boras negotiated Alex Rodriguez's $252 million deal with the Texas Rangers, you could feel your mouth drop and wonder about the sanity of baseball. But at the end of the day, you at least could reason that, at the time, A-Rod was the best player in the game. A proven commodity. A future Hall of Famer.


Henry makes a pitch (http://www.boston.com/sports/baseball/redsox/articles/2006/12/12/henry_makes_a_pitch)
(By Gordon Edes, Globe Staff) The gloves came off yesterday in the Red Sox ' efforts to sign Japanese pitcher Daisuke Matsuzaka, who is facing a Thursday midnight deadline in striking a deal with the Red Sox, or his rights revert back to his Japanese team, the Seibu Lions.


Posted by Michael Silverman at 8:15 am

A couple of interesting details of the Red Sox’ on-site-in-southern-California negotiations with, or about, Daisuke Matsuzaka, are still filtering in. One is, according to a Red Sox source, Theo Epstein and Larry Lucchino called Matsuzaka’s agent, Scott Boras, upon landing in California yesterday and requested a meeting with Boras and Matsuzaka. Boras said OK, said the source. A brief meeting took place but Boras told the Red Sox that Matsuzaka was not feeling well and would not participate after all.
The Red Sox were not pleased by this development. They are awaiting a meeting later today where they are expecting Matsuzaka to be present. They want to assure themselves that Matsuzaka understands why and how they are negotiating like they are and offering the kind of contract they are. One of their chief concerns is that Boras’ unwillingness to make a counter-offer to their earlier bid is an indication that he does not want to make any sort of deal with the Red Sox, using the unfairness of the posting system as the reason.

http://www.bostonherald.com/blogs/redSox/

Ol' No. 2
12-12-2006, 11:04 AM
it is starting to get ugly

WEB EXCLUSIVE: Boras demands way out of line (http://www.boston.com/sports/baseball/redsox/articles/2006/12/12/boras_demands_way_out_of_line)
(By Nick Cafardo, Globe Staff) When Scott Boras negotiated Alex Rodriguez's $252 million deal with the Texas Rangers, you could feel your mouth drop and wonder about the sanity of baseball. But at the end of the day, you at least could reason that, at the time, A-Rod was the best player in the game. A proven commodity. A future Hall of Famer.


Henry makes a pitch (http://www.boston.com/sports/baseball/redsox/articles/2006/12/12/henry_makes_a_pitch)
(By Gordon Edes, Globe Staff) The gloves came off yesterday in the Red Sox ' efforts to sign Japanese pitcher Daisuke Matsuzaka, who is facing a Thursday midnight deadline in striking a deal with the Red Sox, or his rights revert back to his Japanese team, the Seibu Lions.


Posted by Michael Silverman at 8:15 am

A couple of interesting details of the Red Sox’ on-site-in-southern-California negotiations with, or about, Daisuke Matsuzaka, are still filtering in. One is, according to a Red Sox source, Theo Epstein and Larry Lucchino called Matsuzaka’s agent, Scott Boras, upon landing in California yesterday and requested a meeting with Boras and Matsuzaka. Boras said OK, said the source. A brief meeting took place but Boras told the Red Sox that Matsuzaka was not feeling well and would not participate after all.
The Red Sox were not pleased by this development. They are awaiting a meeting later today where they are expecting Matsuzaka to be present. They want to assure themselves that Matsuzaka understands why and how they are negotiating like they are and offering the kind of contract they are. One of their chief concerns is that Boras’ unwillingness to make a counter-offer to their earlier bid is an indication that he does not want to make any sort of deal with the Red Sox, using the unfairness of the posting system as the reason.

http://www.bostonherald.com/blogs/redSox/This is classic Boras - not allowing the team to talk directly with the player, not returning calls and not making counter offers. He's hoping Theo will blink first.

Fenway
12-12-2006, 02:06 PM
Boras has made a huge blunder according to a Toyko writer speaking on WEEI. People in Japan are outraged by this statement.

"In Japan, he's known as the national treasure," Boras told some three dozen media representatives -- nearly all representing Japanese outlets. "Here, he will be known as Fort Knox."

Matsuzaka's wife who is a TV star in Japan is said to be "livid" at the statement.

Ol' No. 2
12-12-2006, 02:14 PM
Boras has made a huge blunder according to a Toyko writer speaking on WEEI. People in Japan are outraged by this statement.

"In Japan, he's known as the national treasure," Boras told some three dozen media representatives -- nearly all representing Japanese outlets. "Here, he will be known as Fort Knox."

Matsuzaka's wife who is a TV star in Japan is said to be "livid" at the statement.If they don't come to some kind of agreement it will spell the end of the posting system. It may even if they do.

soltrain21
12-12-2006, 02:28 PM
Boras has made a huge blunder according to a Toyko writer speaking on WEEI. People in Japan are outraged by this statement.

"In Japan, he's known as the national treasure," Boras told some three dozen media representatives -- nearly all representing Japanese outlets. "Here, he will be known as Fort Knox."

Matsuzaka's wife who is a TV star in Japan is said to be "livid" at the statement.



At the risk of sounding very naive and dumb.....why are they completely outraged and livid?


I mean, it seems like a really dumb statement, but I know I am missing something.

Fenway
12-12-2006, 03:10 PM
At the risk of sounding very naive and dumb.....why are they completely outraged and livid?


I mean, it seems like a really dumb statement, but I know I am missing something.

It apparently is a culture thing in Japan which we in the US don't really understand.

I don't care what anybody says as I believe the 51 Million the Lions have at stake is the elephant in the room.

Ol' No. 2
12-12-2006, 03:20 PM
It apparently is a culture thing in Japan which we in the US don't really understand.

I don't care what anybody says as I believe the 51 Million the Lions have at stake is the elephant in the room.I believe the idea that a player would go somewhere for the money is considered extremely gauche there. That's why you always hear them talking about wanting the challenge of playing in the major leagues, but of course, they never turn down the big contracts, either.

It seems to me the only one who wins by a deal not getting done is Scott Boras, and even then, Matsuzaka could be so PO'ed at him for screwing up this deal that he could fire him before next year.

Mickster
12-12-2006, 03:34 PM
I understand that Matsuzaka is an unproven MLB commodity who has yet to even throw a pitch in MLB but to offer him an $8-9M/yr. deal after posting $51M just to negotiate with the guy is complete and utter bull ****! For once I do not find fault with Boras (I can't believe I am saying this) as much as I do the Red Sox. If they honestly think that he is worth $8-9M per year then why on earth would you throw $51M at the Seibu Lions?

Boston knew that Boras was his agent, but incorrectly assumed that Seibu would be able to kick back some cash to offset their low-balled contract offer. That is why Lucchino went to Japan last month. Those in the Red Sox front office are acting like a bunch of whiny children. :whiner:

kidmccarthy
12-12-2006, 03:43 PM
Its worth going to espn.com and checking out the video from cold pizza this morning with Boras. He cant even look at the camera, he is so amused by this whole ordeal, and is just glowing with egotism. Unfortunately, we will lose Crede because of this man, but his whole persona is just so tiresome. I really hope the red sox can get a cheap contract just to burn this guy!

Fenway
12-12-2006, 04:01 PM
can you even fathom this happening in the United States?


Tokyo Yakult Swallows player-manager Atsuya Furuta accepted a 75 percent cut in his annual salary Monday and signed a contract for his 18th year with the Central League team.

"I was surprised when I first saw their initial offer, which had an 80 percent decrease, but it seems rational because I don't think I deserved the money with what I did as a player last year," Furuta said.

http://search.japantimes.co.jp/cgi-bin/sb20061212j1.html

PennStater98r
12-12-2006, 04:05 PM
I really hope the red sox can get a cheap contract just to burn this guy!

Funny - my hopes are taht Boras burns slowly at the stake in hell... is that too much to hope for?

Ol' No. 2
12-12-2006, 04:06 PM
Funny - my hopes are taht Boras burns slowly at the stake in hell... is that too much to hope for?:borass: I own the place.

Fenway
12-12-2006, 04:16 PM
oh to peek inside this website

http://www.borascorp.com/home/ :tongue: :rolleyes:

Fenway
12-12-2006, 04:49 PM
ESPN has a dispatch from Toyko explaing WHY this will get done

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/hotstove06/columns/story?id=2693833



The Lions have slated 1.6 billion yen ($13.77 million) for additional players' salaries, 700 million yen ($6.02 million) each for upgrading restrooms and the clubhouse and 300 million yen ($2.56 million) each toward replacing their dome's artificial surface and installing field seats.

Should Matsuzaka return to Tokorozawa, all those plans will go down the drain and fans will be left shaking their heads.
As happy as Lions fans would be to have Matsuzaka for another year or so, the nation of Japan would be devastated.

While Boras may think nothing of causing an international incident of these proportions, Matsuzaka is unlikely to be a party to it.

The Immigrant
12-12-2006, 05:17 PM
The Nation of Japan will be devastated if the Seibu Lions are unable to renovate their restrooms? Who writes this ****?

Ol' No. 2
12-12-2006, 05:18 PM
ESPN has a dispatch from Toyko explaing WHY this will get done

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/hotstove06/columns/story?id=2693833What have I been telling you? One more day of posturing, then an 11th hour deal.

CLR01
12-12-2006, 05:46 PM
The Nation of Japan will be devastated if the Seibu Lions are unable to renovate their restrooms? Who writes this ****?


I don't know but it is ****ing hilarious. Japans one dream is to improve the restrooms, clubhouse and field of one of their baseball teams stadium. It's a noble cause.


ESPN: still full of ****.


While Boras may think nothing of causing an international incident of these proportions, Matsuzaka is unlikely to be a party to it.


:rolling:


Should I go build a bomb shelter? :rolleyes:

Fenway
12-13-2006, 09:29 AM
Clubhouse Insider (http://www.bostonherald.com/blogs/redSox/) - Updated: 04:03 AM EST
Matsuzaka wants $11M per year; Sox offering $8M
(http://www.bostonherald.com/blogs/redSox/)Posted by Michael Silverman
COSTA MESA, Calif. - - Pessimism from both sides of these Daisuke Matsuzaka talks rules the day, or early morning, but talks are not dead and the deadline is still not until Thursday (in case you hadn't heard). No one wants to go on the record as of yet but here's the latest info, according to plugged- in... [more (http://www.bostonherald.com/blogs/redSox/)]

'Dialogue continues' (http://www.boston.com/sports/baseball/redsox/articles/2006/12/13/no_progress_on_matsuzaka)
Just after midnight on the West Coast, a source with direct ties to negotiations said that "dialogue continues" between the sides.


BOB RYAN (http://www.boston.com/sports/columnists/ryan/)
Team had to know how game is played (http://www.boston.com/sports/baseball/redsox/articles/2006/12/13/team_had_to_know_how_game_is_played)
If midnight Thursday comes and Daisuke Matsuzaka remains unsigned, we can then indulge in The Blame Game.

soxfanreggie
12-13-2006, 09:31 AM
I hope this thing doesn't get done. Everyone knows how Boras is, but would be nice to see no Japanese players sign with him after this. Might actually keep the costs "reasonable."

On a side note, and if this thread wasn't about Boras, I'd put this in the Parking Lot, but at least they could probably test Boras for 1) Cell phone radiation. If he isn't on the cell phone at least 3-4 hours every day, I would be surprised. Also 2) Carpal tunnel from using a blackberry or something. At least he may have some medical study value.

Ol' No. 2
12-13-2006, 10:35 AM
I hope this thing doesn't get done. Everyone knows how Boras is, but would be nice to see no Japanese players sign with him after this. Might actually keep the costs "reasonable."

On a side note, and if this thread wasn't about Boras, I'd put this in the Parking Lot, but at least they could probably test Boras for 1) Cell phone radiation. If he isn't on the cell phone at least 3-4 hours every day, I would be surprised. Also 2) Carpal tunnel from using a blackberry or something. At least he may have some medical study value.A lot of people will disagree with me, but I don't believe Scott Boras has ever negotiated a deal that the player didn't want. Everybody knows who Scott Boras is and what he does. Players sign with him because that's what they want. As long as there's a demand for a Scott Boras there will be a Scott Boras. If he wasn't there, someone else would fill that demand. So while people love to wail on Boras as being greedy, the greed ultimately comes from the players who hire him.

Fenway
12-13-2006, 10:44 AM
WEEI just spoke with a writer based in Japan and it was interesting take on the whole saga

http://media.weei.podzinger.com/archive/DennisAndCallahan/2006-12-13_Robert_Whiting.mp3

Robert Whiting is the author of several highly acclaimed books on Japanese baseball and contemporary culture. Whiting has written for The New York Times, The Smithsonian, Sports Illustrated, Newsweek, and US News and World Report.

He has also written ten books in Japanese, mostly collections. "You Gotta Have Wa," published in 1989, is a work on Japanese society as seen through their adopted sport of baseball

thedudeabides
12-13-2006, 11:04 AM
A lot of people will disagree with me, but I don't believe Scott Boras has ever negotiated a deal that the player didn't want. Everybody knows who Scott Boras is and what he does. Players sign with him because that's what they want. As long as there's a demand for a Scott Boras there will be a Scott Boras. If he wasn't there, someone else would fill that demand. So while people love to wail on Boras as being greedy, the greed ultimately comes from the players who hire him.

Buster Olney wrote yesterday that Boras deals aren't always in the players best interest and the players are often shut out of the negotiations. He says when A-Rod signed the Texas deal, he really wanted to sign with the Mets. This is why Boston has been trying to meet face to face with Matsuzaka....they don't believe all the facts are being relayed to him through Boras.

It's in his blog, but You have to be an ESPN insider.
http://insider.espn.go.com/espn/blog/index?name=olney_buster#20061213

StepsInSC
12-13-2006, 11:04 AM
The Nation of Japan will be devastated if the Seibu Lions are unable to renovate their restrooms? Who writes this ****?

You know I thought the same thing, then looked at the author and it's Jim Allen, so I give it some credit. Jim Allen, IIRC, is an American who's lived in Japan for a long time and has been working for the Yomiuri newspaper for quite a while. I haven't read his stuff recently but he always seemed knowledgeable. I think he should have ended on this note:

Just as his country counted on him in the WBC, the nation is expecting major league success now. It will be a massive disappointment if Matsuzaka says the Sox's offer is too unworthy to allow him to fulfill a dream he has held "since childhood."

All the other stuff about "devastation" reeks of exaggerations. And the stuff about the money lost seems like he's just taking the kitchen sink approach to trying to show how Japan will be disappointed.

champagne030
12-13-2006, 11:16 AM
Buster Olney wrote yesterday that Boras deals aren't always in the players best interest and the players are often shut out of the negotiations. He says when A-Rod signed the Texas deal, he really wanted to sign with the Mets. This is why Boston has been trying to meet face to face with Matsuzaka....they don't believe all the facts are being relayed to him through Boras.

It's in his blog, but You have to be an ESPN insider.
http://insider.espn.go.com/espn/blog/index?name=olney_buster#20061213

Buster is a schmuck. He reads online newspapers and then writes a blog supposedly giving you inside information. That said, players know exactly what they're getting in Boras....The most money possible. Boras will tell them to get another agent if the players intention is to sign for the most money a specific team will give them.

the gooch
12-13-2006, 11:19 AM
A lot of people will disagree with me, but I don't believe Scott Boras has ever negotiated a deal that the player didn't want. Everybody knows who Scott Boras is and what he does. Players sign with him because that's what they want. As long as there's a demand for a Scott Boras there will be a Scott Boras. If he wasn't there, someone else would fill that demand. So while people love to wail on Boras as being greedy, the greed ultimately comes from the players who hire him.
ARod wanted his contract redone so he could go to Boston.
Everybody likes the contracts AT THE TIME, but once you realize there isn't much of a lifestyle change from $20 million and $25 million, those things change.

thedudeabides
12-13-2006, 11:39 AM
Buster is a schmuck. He reads online newspapers and then writes a blog supposedly giving you inside information. That said, players know exactly what they're getting in Boras....The most money possible. Boras will tell them to get another agent if the players intention is to sign for the most money a specific team will give them.

I'm not giving any credence to Buster here, but I think there is some merit to what he's saying. Many of these players sign when they're 18 years old. They are pretty green when it comes to the business side and Boras takes advantage of them. I just think it proves what a scum Boras is if the players are left in the dark about who is interested in them and what they're best fit would be. And by best fit I don't mean most money.

Ol' No. 2
12-13-2006, 11:46 AM
Buster Olney wrote yesterday that Boras deals aren't always in the players best interest and the players are often shut out of the negotiations. He says when A-Rod signed the Texas deal, he really wanted to sign with the Mets. This is why Boston has been trying to meet face to face with Matsuzaka....they don't believe all the facts are being relayed to him through Boras.

It's in his blog, but You have to be an ESPN insider.
http://insider.espn.go.com/espn/blog/index?name=olney_buster#20061213Not buying it. In the end it's the player who signs the contract, not the agent, and if he wants to meet face-to-face with the team, the agent can't stop him. There's no way an agent can make a player agree to a deal he doesn't want.