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Whitesox029
12-08-2006, 12:26 PM
I interpret Kenny's comments in the trib today to mean that KW and Uncle Jerry are moving in the direction of relying on young talent in terms of pitching. This really scares me in that it could result in the Sox returning to the dark ages of the late 90s, finishing around .500 and in third place every year.
BUT...
Is there anyone else who is inclined to trust what Kenny says here, just because he's been right in the past when people have doubted him? Can this work? Or is this just a 'rebuilding period' in disguise, meaning we're doomed to a period of mediocrity after competing in 07 and 08 with the lineup we have?

CaptainBallz
12-08-2006, 12:31 PM
Entering a "rebuilding" period now, with the moves made last year to win NOW, would be the sham of all shams. This team needed a few tweaks, not a rebuilding and a crap shoot at a goal beyond 2008.

I'm still taking deep breaths and hoping there's more...Or else I forsee a very upset WS fanbase..

fusillirob1983
12-08-2006, 12:31 PM
Old Rotation
Garcia
Buehrle
Garland
Vazquez
Contreras

New Rotation
McCarthy
Buehrle
Garland
Vazquez
Contreras

We're so screwed.

caulfield12
12-08-2006, 12:37 PM
Entering a "rebuilding" period now, with the moves made last year to win NOW, would be the sham of all shams. This team needed a few tweaks, not a rebuilding and a crap shoot at a goal beyond 2008.

I'm still taking deep breaths and hoping there's more...Or else I forsee a very upset WS fanbase..


I've been called a "Dark Cloud" on numerous occasions and see absolutely nothing wrong with this move. Relax. Let's wait until at least March 1st to criticize and predict failure and upset fan bases.

When the Cubs are hamstrung financially in 2-3 years (like the Pirates when they dumped Ramirez, Kendall and other top players for nothing just to get contracts off the books), then just wait to see where all their optimism this off-season has gotten them.

The only contracts I've been uncomfortable with were Konerko (back when he was struggling in 02 and 03 and rumored to have degenerative hip problems), El Duque and Garcia before the last six weeks of last season.

I thought we'd have to subsidize Garcia's deal to get rid of him, in all honesty.

Hitmen77
12-08-2006, 01:16 PM
I interpret Kenny's comments in the trib today to mean that KW and Uncle Jerry are moving in the direction of relying on young talent in terms of pitching. This really scares me in that it could result in the Sox returning to the dark ages of the late 90s, finishing around .500 and in third place every year.
BUT...
Is there anyone else who is inclined to trust what Kenny says here, just because he's been right in the past when people have doubted him? Can this work? Or is this just a 'rebuilding period' in disguise, meaning we're doomed to a period of mediocrity after competing in 07 and 08 with the lineup we have?

IMO, Kenny's comments do not mean the Sox are returning to the post White Flag rebuilding era. If anything, I think Williams is trying to prevent the Sox from having to take that route 1 or 2 years from now.

From his point of view, in 1 or 2 years, he'll be facing the prospect of his entire starting rotation being up for FA or extensions. Add to that Dye, Crede and others. Realistically, the Sox, even as a higher payroll team, cannot pay all of those guys $10-15 million per year. Even if they did decide to let the payroll skyrocket and pay all of those guys, they'd be locking in aging talent and it's a good bet that a number of those guys will be on the downside of their careers in a few years.

I think KW is trying to balance trying to win today and not letting the bottom fall out tomorrow. I think this is the smartest approach to remaining in contention on a consistent basis. Since they had a 6th starter waiting in the wings, it makes sense for him to trade a starter now in exchange for players that may help us a few years from now. Luckily, the Sox have the luxury of doing that without necessarily sacrificing the '07 season.

The real question is whether the Garcia trade pans out. What KW and the Sox scouts are foreseeing is that Garcia is an aging/fading pitcher while Floyd and Gonzalez will fortify our rotation for the long-term. Is he right? We'll have to wait and see.

soxfanaticpaulie
12-08-2006, 01:21 PM
Old Rotation
Garcia
Buehrle
Garland
Vazquez
Contreras

New Rotation
McCarthy
Buehrle
Garland
Vazquez
Contreras

We're so screwed.


No one is panicing about the rotation as it stands NOW, but I share a genuine concern with a lot of other people that KW seems to be in this sort of, I dunno, rebuilding lean.

With Garcia gone from prospects, and still heavy rumors about Buehrle and Garland moving, I am concerned. The rotation can survive as it is at this point. I don't think that Vazquez is going to do better than .500, and he's proven he's going to strain teh bullpen. No one knows how McCarthy with do...so as far as I'm concerned why would you move anyone else, unless it is for an already established pitcher (which generally won't happen.)?

I hope the trade rumors aren't true, because it REEKS of rebuilding. The Sox aren't going to home grow 5 solid starters in the next year or two OR three. They blasted attendance records last year, and if they have a 97% ST renewal rate right now, they don't really have a reason not to ante up and pay guys when their contracts come up....

I will be one pissed off Sox fan if KW isn't thinking of contendign this year.:angry:

The Immigrant
12-08-2006, 01:29 PM
I will be one pissed off Sox fan if KW isn't thinking of contendign this year.:angry:

Of course he's not thinking of contending. Haven't you read the Tribune lately?

:rolleyes:

Lip Man 1
12-08-2006, 01:37 PM
For what it's worth I did read in a column in the Sun-Times today refering to a story on Yahoo! Sports.com quoting Sox ownership about being 'unhappy' with the new CBA.

If anyone saw this story can you provide a link? I'd like to see the context in which these statements were supposedly made.

On the surface it sounds like Sox ownership circa 1994 but again I'd like to see the paragraph surrounding these comments.

Lip

oeo
12-08-2006, 01:38 PM
Entering a "rebuilding" period now, with the moves made last year to win NOW, would be the sham of all shams. This team needed a few tweaks, not a rebuilding and a crap shoot at a goal beyond 2008.

I'm still taking deep breaths and hoping there's more...Or else I forsee a very upset WS fanbase..

I'm not so sure you know the meaning of "rebuilding". Sure doesn't seem like it because what the Sox are not currently "rebuilding", they're merely taking their excess in pitching and putting it towards the future of the team. If they went out and traded Dye, Konerko, Crede, and all of the rotation for prospects, then I would consider that rebuilding, but they are yet to even make a serious change.

ondafarm
12-08-2006, 01:39 PM
No one is panicing about the rotation as it stands NOW, but I share a genuine concern with a lot of other people that KW seems to be in this sort of, I dunno, rebuilding lean.

With Garcia gone from prospects, and still heavy rumors about Buehrle and Garland moving, I am concerned. The rotation can survive as it is at this point. I don't think that Vazquez is going to do better than .500, and he's proven he's going to strain teh bullpen. No one knows how McCarthy with do...so as far as I'm concerned why would you move anyone else, unless it is for an already established pitcher (which generally won't happen.)?

I hope the trade rumors aren't true, because it REEKS of rebuilding. The Sox aren't going to home grow 5 solid starters in the next year or two OR three. They blasted attendance records last year, and if they have a 97% ST renewal rate right now, they don't really have a reason not to ante up and pay guys when their contracts come up....

I will be one pissed off Sox fan if KW isn't thinking of contendign this year.:angry:

:chickenlittle

Mickster
12-08-2006, 02:02 PM
For what it's worth I did read in a column in the Sun-Times today refering to a story on Yahoo! Sports.com quoting Sox ownership about being 'unhappy' with the new CBA.

If anyone saw this story can you provide a link? I'd like to see the context in which these statements were supposedly made.

On the surface it sounds like Sox ownership circa 1994 but again I'd like to see the paragraph surrounding these comments.

Lip

Actually, they were discussing this on XM within the last 2 days and there were multiple sound bites from owners and GMs showing great displeasure with the CBA that was recently signed and one of them (not JR) stated that this was not the time for a work stopage in baseball even though they acknowledged problems with the just-signed CBA.

The general theme was that they are not happy with it but didn't want to ruffle any feathers this year. Nobody thought the spending would be as ridiculous as this.

CaptainBallz
12-08-2006, 02:08 PM
I'm not so sure you know the meaning of "rebuilding". Sure doesn't seem like it because what the Sox are not currently "rebuilding", they're merely taking their excess in pitching and putting it towards the future of the team. If they went out and traded Dye, Konerko, Crede, and all of the rotation for prospects, then I would consider that rebuilding, but they are yet to even make a serious change.

That's why I put rebuliding in these ("") puppies. I don't necessarily have a problem with 3-year plans and building for the future per se, but IMHO at this point in time the #1 priority should be making this team as competetive as humanly possible for '07 while we have Dye, Crede, Thome, Konerko, and pals firing on all cylinders. Sketchy pitching and relying on the unprovens doesn't tickle me.
I know KW most likely believes what he's doing is for the best of the team in '07 and beyond, so I'll take caulfield's advice and relax until there's more.

Vernam
12-08-2006, 02:16 PM
Actually, they were discussing this on XM within the last 2 days and there were multiple sound bites from owners and GMs showing great displeasure with the CBA that was recently signed and one of them (not JR) stated that this was not the time for a work stopage in baseball even though they acknowledged problems with the just-signed CBA.

The general theme was that they are not happy with it but didn't want to ruffle any feathers this year. Nobody thought the spending would be as ridiculous as this.And who do we have to thank for the new CBA? Why, it's Andy MacPhail, architect of our North Side neighbors' misery. One and the same.

Conspiracy theorists could have a field day, given the spending spree that's underway.

Vernam

SABRSox
12-08-2006, 02:18 PM
For what it's worth I did read in a column in the Sun-Times today refering to a story on Yahoo! Sports.com quoting Sox ownership about being 'unhappy' with the new CBA.

If anyone saw this story can you provide a link? I'd like to see the context in which these statements were supposedly made.

On the surface it sounds like Sox ownership circa 1994 but again I'd like to see the paragraph surrounding these comments.

Lip

Link (http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news?slug=jp-revenue120506&prov=yhoo&type=lgns)

I get the feeling JR is pretty upset, but is fully aware of the PR damage a work stoppage causes.

However, if this reckless spending continues, that's what we'll be seeing come 2011.

fusillirob1983
12-08-2006, 05:18 PM
No one is panicing about the rotation as it stands NOW, but I share a genuine concern with a lot of other people that KW seems to be in this sort of, I dunno, rebuilding lean.

With Garcia gone from prospects, and still heavy rumors about Buehrle and Garland moving, I am concerned. The rotation can survive as it is at this point. I don't think that Vazquez is going to do better than .500, and he's proven he's going to strain teh bullpen. No one knows how McCarthy with do...so as far as I'm concerned why would you move anyone else, unless it is for an already established pitcher (which generally won't happen.)?

I hope the trade rumors aren't true, because it REEKS of rebuilding. The Sox aren't going to home grow 5 solid starters in the next year or two OR three. They blasted attendance records last year, and if they have a 97% ST renewal rate right now, they don't really have a reason not to ante up and pay guys when their contracts come up....

I will be one pissed off Sox fan if KW isn't thinking of contendign this year.:angry:

I know nobody is basing their concerns on how the rotation stands now. KW said he doesn't want the 5th starter carousel anymore. That's something he was actually quoted saying. I don't think another starting pitcher moves unless he gets an ML-ready pitcher in return. The Garland deal may have been another that he was working on, but the Garcia deal went through so the Garland deal was dropped. That is my guess anyway. Either way, it didn't happen and may have been completely made up.

You're basing all of your feelings on rumors.

Maybe you aren't panicking, but if you take a look around this board, you'll see plenty of people seem to be.

OzzyTrain
12-08-2006, 06:39 PM
No one is panicing about the rotation as it stands NOW,

Yeah, now we aren't but what happens after the first month, if Buehrle,
Vazquez start playing like last year ? The 5th or 6th inning blow ups, Buehrle not getting it done, then what ?

Some big if's

California Sox
12-08-2006, 06:54 PM
Yeah, now we aren't but what happens after the first month, if Buehrle,
Vazquez start playing like last year ? The 5th or 6th inning blow ups, Buehrle not getting it done, then what ?

Some big if's

If Buerhle's as bad as he was most of the second half the difference between Freddie and Brandon is not going to matter anyway. Hopefully, it was an aberration.

Navarro's Talent
12-08-2006, 07:20 PM
I'm not worried. We pretty much knew one of the pitchers was going to be leaving. With Don Cooper on our side, I wouldn't be surprised to see him turn Gavin Floyd into a pretty solid guy. With a full year of pitching in the big leagues, McCarthy should be good to go as well. If he becomes the fifth starter (which I think he'll be), he'll have the extra time he needs to warm-up.

caulfield12
12-08-2006, 07:23 PM
Yeah, now we aren't but what happens after the first month, if Buehrle,
Vazquez start playing like last year ? The 5th or 6th inning blow ups, Buehrle not getting it done, then what ?

Some big if's

Would you advocate trading him or signing Buehrle to a long-term contract TODAY for more than 3 years or more than $12 million per season?

I wouldn't.

The best thing these deals do is eventually drive Santana out of Minnesota, although knowing Minny, Santana won't once complain about his contract...but the best pitcher in baseball is making less than Gil Meche.

There's just no way to know or predict the future? At first, signing Garland looked questionable...in the 2nd half, Contreras looked like an aging/injured mess.

daveeym
12-08-2006, 07:35 PM
Even if there was truth to every rumor out there I'm going to give them the benefit of the doubt that they won't trade away the entire rotation. KW is good about not putting all his eggs in one basket. We all knew that 3 or 4 starters were possible trade bait. Kenny was looking for what he thought would be the best deal for one of them. He was shopping all of them but only planning on trading ONE of them.

Now that garcia's gone all other deals are probably off the table unless someone just flat out sells the farm for one of the other starters. Freddy was probably the favored to be dealt due to his attitude and performance issues, regardless of what his record was last year. The fact that garcia was the one traded (first to be traded for the pessimists) is a good sign. It means they're probably done with the starting rotation.

I see this as addition by subtraction. I'd still like a lead off hitter, shortstop (offensive with a minimal defensive loss) or centerfield upgrade but we are still looking good right now. And I think BA will have a very solid season next year at worst. I just like the cut of his jib. :cool:

OzzyTrain
12-08-2006, 08:26 PM
I'm to a point where I might not agree with the trade or be happy, but you gotta trust Kenny.

oldcomiskey
12-09-2006, 10:45 AM
Lets just wait and see--After all this is the same guy who was called "the village idiot" when he made the moves that turned the Sox in champions in 05. He brought in Jenks, everybody laughed. Traded Lee, everybody howled. Let Ordonez and Valentin and Big Hurt go........

Ol' No. 2
12-09-2006, 10:59 AM
Link (http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news?slug=jp-revenue120506&prov=yhoo&type=lgns)

I get the feeling JR is pretty upset, but is fully aware of the PR damage a work stoppage causes.

However, if this reckless spending continues, that's what we'll be seeing come 2011.Here's the part of this I have a problem with:
"They still have problems," said Reinsdorf, a close friend and ally of Selig's. "Revenue sharing has helped somewhat, but not enough. We need a system of salary restraint. Until there's a system of salary restraint, the players are going to get all incremental revenue."Translated: "Stop us before we spend again!"

Yes, there is a device for salary restraint, Jerry. It's called "don't sign mediocre talent to idiotic amounts of money". As far as I'm aware, there's no provision in the CBA FORCING teams to do this. It's the owners' own fault.

oeo
12-09-2006, 11:05 AM
Yeah, now we aren't but what happens after the first month, if Buehrle,
Vazquez start playing like last year ? The 5th or 6th inning blow ups, Buehrle not getting it done, then what ?

Some big if's

Okay, since you seem to know what to do...who should they get? Did you seriously expect Kenny to go out and change the whole rotation? You can't do that.

Every rotation in the majors has 'some big if's'. Actually, most teams have even bigger if's.

What happens if after the first month, Buehrle doesn't come back to form and Vazquez pitches like a 5th starter? We deal with it. You can't just go out and change everything, especially when it's a rotation like the Sox have. If Buehrle doesn't come back, there was nothing Kenny could have done to make the rotation better. You're making absolutely no sense here.

And I still don't understand how trading Freddy made any more question marks? Did I miss something...did Freddy win the Cy Young last year? Last time I checked, the guy had a good September, and sucked it up every other month of the year. McCarthy can match his numbers, and maybe even put up better one's...Freddy did not leave a hole, get over yourself.

One other thing that you're forgetting...we still have the depth that we did last year. Gavin Floyd can be put into McCarthy's role if a starter goes down, or needs some serious time off. That always sucks to have, though, right?

caulfield12
12-09-2006, 11:28 AM
Okay, since you seem to know what to do...who should they get? Did you seriously expect Kenny to go out and change the whole rotation? You can't do that.

Every rotation in the majors has 'some big if's'. Actually, most teams have even bigger if's.

What happens if after the first month, Buehrle doesn't come back to form and Vazquez pitches like a 5th starter? We deal with it. You can't just go out and change everything, especially when it's a rotation like the Sox have. If Buehrle doesn't come back, there was nothing Kenny could have done to make the rotation better. You're making absolutely no sense here.

And I still don't understand how trading Freddy made any more question marks? Did I miss something...did Freddy win the Cy Young last year? Last time I checked, the guy had a good September, and sucked it up every other month of the year. McCarthy can match his numbers, and maybe even put up better one's...Freddy did not leave a hole, get over yourself.

One other thing that you're forgetting...we still have the depth that we did last year. Gavin Floyd can be put into McCarthy's role if a starter goes down, or needs some serious time off. That always sucks to have, though, right?


You could argue we have more depth now than coming into last season...

Gonzalez, Floyd, Haeger, Broadway (the last 2 w/ more exp.) >>> McCarthy

champagne030
12-09-2006, 11:36 AM
Okay, since you seem to know what to do...who should they get? Did you seriously expect Kenny to go out and change the whole rotation? You can't do that.

Every rotation in the majors has 'some big if's'. Actually, most teams have even bigger if's.

What happens if after the first month, Buehrle doesn't come back to form and Vazquez pitches like a 5th starter? We deal with it. You can't just go out and change everything, especially when it's a rotation like the Sox have. If Buehrle doesn't come back, there was nothing Kenny could have done to make the rotation better. You're making absolutely no sense here.

And I still don't understand how trading Freddy made any more question marks? Did I miss something...did Freddy win the Cy Young last year? Last time I checked, the guy had a good September, and sucked it up every other month of the year. McCarthy can match his numbers, and maybe even put up better one's...Freddy did not leave a hole, get over yourself.

One other thing that you're forgetting...we still have the depth that we did last year. Gavin Floyd can be put into McCarthy's role if a starter goes down, or needs some serious time off. That always sucks to have, though, right?

I'm not going to get into the return on Freddy debate (not totally happy, but been there done that). Yes, someone needed to go to make room for BeMAC. You better hope that for Gavin to fill in as a 5th starter that Coop can pull one hell of a Jedi Mind **** trick. We can argue whether BeMac matches Freddy this season, but no way, no how is Floyd as ready to step into the rotation as BeMac was last season.

champagne030
12-09-2006, 11:37 AM
You could argue we have more depth now than coming into last season...

Gonzalez, Floyd, Haeger, Broadway (the last 2 w/ more exp.) >>> McCarthy

Yes, minor league depth. Better off for '08 and beyond.....

Jurr
12-09-2006, 11:48 AM
I interpret Kenny's comments in the trib today to mean that KW and Uncle Jerry are moving in the direction of relying on young talent in terms of pitching. This really scares me in that it could result in the Sox returning to the dark ages of the late 90s, finishing around .500 and in third place every year.
BUT...
Is there anyone else who is inclined to trust what Kenny says here, just because he's been right in the past when people have doubted him? Can this work? Or is this just a 'rebuilding period' in disguise, meaning we're doomed to a period of mediocrity after competing in 07 and 08 with the lineup we have?
Doomed to mediocrity my ass. If you scout and evaluate talent, and the pitchers end up being solid, you still win games. JUST BECAUSE A PLAYER ISN'T "PROVEN" DOES NOT MEAN HE FLAT OUT SUCKS.
Why are people still so ignorant to that fact????? It absolutely baffles me. Annibal Sanchez. Liriano. Boof Bonzer. Verlander. These guys had proven NOTHING going into the season, and now they're "bona fide".

Yes, most young players do have a learning curve that fans have to deal with. Big deal. Just because you go young, you're not particularly destined for mediocrity.

oeo
12-09-2006, 11:51 AM
I'm not going to get into the return on Freddy debate (not totally happy, but been there done that). Yes, someone needed to go to make room for BeMAC. You better hope that for Gavin to fill in as a 5th starter that Coop can pull one hell of a Jedi Mind **** trick. We can argue whether BeMac matches Freddy this season, but no way, no how is Floyd as ready to step into the rotation as BeMac was last season.

If a starter goes down, yes he can do a spot start or two. Of the two, Floyd and Haeger, would you rather have Floyd go out there or Haeger (who unless the conditions are perfect, isn't going to fair very well). Hopefully no starter goes down in the first month or two (or at all). By that time, if Floyd is in the bullpen, and has been working with Coop (this is over three months now including Spring Training), I think Floyd is going to surprise a lot of people.

How do you know when Floyd will be ready? If Kenny says that Coop can fix his mechanics, I'm going to believe him. You have no idea what Gavin Floyd will bring to the team; don't forget to enjoy your crow.

Yes, minor league depth. Better off for '08 and beyond.....

Floyd and Haeger can pitch at the big league level if we need them. Maybe you're forgetting that these guys are insurance...you don't have perennial All Stars as insurance, buddy. You have young guys that can get the job done when called upon (or you can go the expensive route and pay a mediocre to bad veteran)...and not many teams have it, you should be happy that your team does.

Jurr
12-09-2006, 11:54 AM
If a starter goes down, yes he can do a spot start or two. Of the two, Floyd and Haeger, would you rather have Floyd go out there or Haeger (who unless the conditions are perfect, isn't going to fair very well). Hopefully no starter goes down in the first month or two (or at all). By that time, if Floyd is in the bullpen, and has been working with Coop (this is over three months now including Spring Training), I think Floyd is going to surprise a lot of people.

How do you know when Floyd will be ready? If Kenny says that Coop can fix his mechanics, I'm going to believe him. You have no idea what Gavin Floyd will bring to the team; don't forget to enjoy your crow.
Exactly. What did Contreras really have going for him before he came to Chicago? A good forkball, a propensity to tip his pitches, no confidence in his fastball, and bad location.
Oops. He figured out a 3/4 delivery on some offspeed stuff for more movement. He learned not to tip his forkball. He developed confidence in his four seamer. He dominated baseball for a good stretch.

YOU JUST NEVER KNOW.

champagne030
12-09-2006, 12:05 PM
Exactly. What did Contreras really have going for him before he came to Chicago? A good forkball, a propensity to tip his pitches, no confidence in his fastball, and bad location.
Oops. He figured out a 3/4 delivery on some offspeed stuff for more movement. He learned not to tip his forkball. He developed confidence in his four seamer. He dominated baseball for a good stretch.

YOU JUST NEVER KNOW.

He DOMINATED for the best team in International Baseball. Floyd hasn't dominated anything in 5 years. I made my post because someone else said we have more depth in '07. Sure Floyd could start in a pinch, but so could Rocky Biddle. BeMAC was much more accomplished and ready in '06 to start a game than anything we currently have should someone get hurt or traded.

Jurr
12-09-2006, 12:14 PM
He DOMINATED for the best team in International Baseball. Floyd hasn't dominated anything in 5 years. I made my post because someone else said we have more depth in '07. Sure Floyd could start in a pinch, but so could Rocky Biddle. BeMAC was much more accomplished and ready in '06 to start a game than anything we currently have should someone get hurt or traded.
Every player dominates before they get to the majors. That's why they're in the majors. When they get to the bigs, something comes up, whether it's confidence, tipping pitches, or mechanics that makes them perform below their full potential. If they're coached up correctly, a light turns on. Look at Garland for another example. Thornton. What made Esteban Loaiza go from a journeyman to an All-Star starter? What made Suppan go from the Pirates' 4th starter to Cy Young in the playoffs? It's all about working with your pitching coach, adding pitches, and taking off.

There comes a time that you have to pick up commodities (pitchers) and hope that your coaches can get them right. Cooper's got a good track record. You just have to trust in them and let it happen.

Jurr
12-09-2006, 12:18 PM
There's so much talk about being "accomplished" and "proven". That's what everybody goes by. Randy Johnson was pretty accomplished, and he still wouldn't have won much for the Yankees if that offense didn't give him huge run support.
On the flip side, Shawn Chacon, Chen Mieng Wang and Aaron Small didn't have any real proof of being solid starters, yet they flourised in '05.

Just another example of some coach, scout, or GM seeing something that the rest of the public didn't. There are too many examples to name.

champagne030
12-09-2006, 12:25 PM
Every player dominates before they get to the majors. That's why they're in the majors. When they get to the bigs, something comes up, whether it's confidence, tipping pitches, or mechanics that makes them perform below their full potential. If they're coached up correctly, a light turns on. Look at Garland for another example. Thornton. What made Esteban Loaiza go from a journeyman to an All-Star starter? What made Suppan go from the Pirates' 4th starter to Cy Young in the playoffs? It's all about working with your pitching coach, adding pitches, and taking off.

There comes a time that you have to pick up commodities (pitchers) and hope that your coaches can get them right. Cooper's got a good track record. You just have to trust in them and let it happen.

My point was we do not have better depth, at the MLB level, this season vs. last. Yes, Coop may turn Floyd around, but he's not even close to the level BeMAC was entering last season. If someone got hurt last season we had someone that had proven he could step in and pitch at the ML level (yes limited, but had done it). This season our 6th starter is a guy who got hammered in his limited starts the previous season, got sent down to the minors and got hammered again. Sure, Coop, change of scenery, blah, blah, blah.....He's nowhere as proven or ready as BeMAC was last season to start a game.

wsoxfan111
12-09-2006, 12:32 PM
Floyd and Gonzalez are supposed to be pretty good.

I think, if Pods starts to do what he did back in '05, then our lineup should be okay.

I believe that after a year in the bullpen, McCarthy is going to get off to a slow start, and will after the first month, get back into the flow as a starter.

We should be fine. Our bullpen has improved with getting rid of Neal.

infohawk
12-09-2006, 12:37 PM
Link (http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news?slug=jp-revenue120506&prov=yhoo&type=lgns)

I get the feeling JR is pretty upset, but is fully aware of the PR damage a work stoppage causes.

However, if this reckless spending continues, that's what we'll be seeing come 2011.
After reading that article, I wouldn't think that JR is any more upset over this deal then any previous deal that didn't have hard, definitive restrictions on salaries (caps). He's just lamenting that this latest agreement is more of the same. It's not as if something new was introduced that he despises. The salaries being handed out this offseason are just confirming the flaws to him.

caulfield12
12-09-2006, 01:10 PM
Floyd and Gonzalez are supposed to be pretty good.

I think, if Pods starts to do what he did back in '05, then our lineup should be okay.

I believe that after a year in the bullpen, McCarthy is going to get off to a slow start, and will after the first month, get back into the flow as a starter.

We should be fine. Our bullpen has improved with getting rid of Neal.

And McCarthy...

caulfield12
12-09-2006, 01:12 PM
He DOMINATED for the best team in International Baseball. Floyd hasn't dominated anything in 5 years. I made my post because someone else said we have more depth in '07. Sure Floyd could start in a pinch, but so could Rocky Biddle. BeMAC was much more accomplished and ready in '06 to start a game than anything we currently have should someone get hurt or traded.

Floyd was the #4 pick in the draft, he has the ability.

So does Dewon Brazelton. That doesn't mean they will ever fulfill it.

However, while none of the four I mentioned are individually as ready as McCarthy entering last year, there is much more "insurance" than coming into 2006...of course, the counter-argument is that we had a lot of insurance in that 12 lefties came to camp and NONE of them amounted to much of anything.

Well, we got Riske for Javier Lopez, I guess that's something.

MRM
12-09-2006, 04:45 PM
I thought we'd have to subsidize Garcia's deal to get rid of him, in all honesty.

Was that a joke? Garcia, with his numbers, is CHEAP in this current market.

fquaye149
12-09-2006, 04:56 PM
Was that a joke? Garcia, with his numbers, is CHEAP in this current market.

DOLLARS IS NOT TALENT

Essentially when you trade a guy like Garcia...the Phillies are basically signing him to a one year 10 million dollar contract AND have to give up something for it.

The one year 10 million dollar contract is a bargain...giving up two top prospects is probably a bargain too, but many GM's don't see it that way.

caulfield12
12-09-2006, 05:14 PM
Was that a joke? Garcia, with his numbers, is CHEAP in this current market.


At mid August, when Garcia was stinking it up, you were absolutely sure we would be able to move him, not pay any of his contract and get two quality prospects back in the offseason?

Maybe you should be the GM.

Maybe you wouldn't have had to give up Chris Young to get Vazquez.

Hitmen77
12-09-2006, 06:09 PM
Here's the part of this I have a problem with:
Translated: "Stop us before we spend again!"

Yes, there is a device for salary restraint, Jerry. It's called "don't sign mediocre talent to idiotic amounts of money". As far as I'm aware, there's no provision in the CBA FORCING teams to do this. It's the owners' own fault.

But that's the device that the Sox are following, isn't it? And when they do take this approach, we complain that JR and KW are being "childish" (Trib's description) or sounding like the strike-breaking, white flag Jerry.

So many people say the escalating salaries are the owners fault (which it is) and that the way to stop it is to not sign idiotic contracts. But, when the Sox take this route, they get ripped to shreds in the local media for being "cheap" and giving up on any championships. It's not just the media - judging by some of the posts on this site, there are quite a few Sox fans who feel the same way.

southside rocks
12-09-2006, 08:24 PM
But that's the device that the Sox are following, isn't it? And when they do take this approach, we complain that JR and KW are being "childish" (Trib's description) or sounding like the strike-breaking, white flag Jerry.

So many people say the escalating salaries are the owners fault (which it is) and that the way to stop it is to not sign idiotic contracts. But, when the Sox take this route, they get ripped to shreds in the local media for being "cheap" and giving up on any championships. It's not just the media - judging by some of the posts on this site, there are quite a few Sox fans who feel the same way.

Post of the week. Hell, probably post of the off-season.

Ol' No. 2
12-09-2006, 08:35 PM
But that's the device that the Sox are following, isn't it? And when they do take this approach, we complain that JR and KW are being "childish" (Trib's description) or sounding like the strike-breaking, white flag Jerry.

So many people say the escalating salaries are the owners fault (which it is) and that the way to stop it is to not sign idiotic contracts. But, when the Sox take this route, they get ripped to shreds in the local media for being "cheap" and giving up on any championships. It's not just the media - judging by some of the posts on this site, there are quite a few Sox fans who feel the same way.What do you mean WE???

TheOldRoman
12-09-2006, 08:37 PM
But that's the device that the Sox are following, isn't it? And when they do take this approach, we complain that JR and KW are being "childish" (Trib's description) or sounding like the strike-breaking, white flag Jerry.

So many people say the escalating salaries are the owners fault (which it is) and that the way to stop it is to not sign idiotic contracts. But, when the Sox take this route, they get ripped to shreds in the local media for being "cheap" and giving up on any championships.
:worship:
It's not just the media - judging by some of the posts on this site, there are quite a few Sox fans who feel the same way.
Yep, and West disposed of one of them yesterday. A lot of people just don't understand it is either one or the other. Either you "compete" and give our ridiculous contracts, perpetuating the market, or you look for other ways to win.

fquaye149
12-09-2006, 09:25 PM
But that's the device that the Sox are following, isn't it? And when they do take this approach, we complain that JR and KW are being "childish" (Trib's description) or sounding like the strike-breaking, white flag Jerry.

So many people say the escalating salaries are the owners fault (which it is) and that the way to stop it is to not sign idiotic contracts. But, when the Sox take this route, they get ripped to shreds in the local media for being "cheap" and giving up on any championships. It's not just the media - judging by some of the posts on this site, there are quite a few Sox fans who feel the same way.
EXACTLY

you rule

markopat
12-10-2006, 12:02 AM
No one is panicing about the rotation as it stands NOW, but I share a genuine concern with a lot of other people that KW seems to be in this sort of, I dunno, rebuilding lean.

With Garcia gone from prospects, and still heavy rumors about Buehrle and Garland moving, I am concerned. The rotation can survive as it is at this point. I don't think that Vazquez is going to do better than .500, and he's proven he's going to strain teh bullpen. No one knows how McCarthy with do...so as far as I'm concerned why would you move anyone else, unless it is for an already established pitcher (which generally won't happen.)?


I would agree. If these guys will get off their ass and train to be in shape for the entire season, I think we would be OK. I just got SO SICK and tired of hearing about how "tired" our starters were last year. Whatever! Earn your pay and get in the best shape of your life...then pitch your ass off in 2007.

gosox41
12-10-2006, 11:27 AM
I interpret Kenny's comments in the trib today to mean that KW and Uncle Jerry are moving in the direction of relying on young talent in terms of pitching. This really scares me in that it could result in the Sox returning to the dark ages of the late 90s, finishing around .500 and in third place every year.
BUT...
Is there anyone else who is inclined to trust what Kenny says here, just because he's been right in the past when people have doubted him? Can this work? Or is this just a 'rebuilding period' in disguise, meaning we're doomed to a period of mediocrity after competing in 07 and 08 with the lineup we have?


While KW has done a lousy job drafting and developing young pitchers (and position players) he has a knack for scouting other team pitching very well.


Bob

DoItForDanPasqua
12-10-2006, 02:17 PM
http://origin.arstechnica.com/journals/apple.media/thumb/200/200/white_flag.jpg

soxinem1
12-10-2006, 03:02 PM
IMO, Kenny's comments do not mean the Sox are returning to the post White Flag rebuilding era. If anything, I think Williams is trying to prevent the Sox from having to take that route 1 or 2 years from now.

From his point of view, in 1 or 2 years, he'll be facing the prospect of his entire starting rotation being up for FA or extensions. Add to that Dye, Crede and others. Realistically, the Sox, even as a higher payroll team, cannot pay all of those guys $10-15 million per year. Even if they did decide to let the payroll skyrocket and pay all of those guys, they'd be locking in aging talent and it's a good bet that a number of those guys will be on the downside of their careers in a few years.

I think KW is trying to balance trying to win today and not letting the bottom fall out tomorrow.

These are exellent points. The Orioles of the 60's through the early 80's were an example of a team that traded frequently, and contended continuously. Ever since they started buying guys for the 1985 season they have not recovered. Sure it's a different era, but it's still a great way of keeping your team competitive.

I'd rather let someone go a year too early than a year too late.

Tragg
12-10-2006, 05:13 PM
I think it was a reasonable idea to trade a pitchers to get younger...it doesn't mean rebuilding.

But is THAT the best we could get for Garcia?
When garb like Jason Marquis and Gil Meche are commanding contracts they did as FAs, that's the best Williams can do?

soxfanaticpaulie
12-11-2006, 08:47 AM
Funny how people are tagging my post with "the sky is falling", and saying, yeah, but what if Mark and John stink next year, AND telling me they are just rumors (I know they are only rumors...that's why I wrote the word rumors, which you put in bold).

Anyways...maybe I'm just stilled scarred from '94/'95.

All I was saying was "if". Don't get me wrong...I am extatic that KW isn't paying $40mil for Lily and $21mil for a Marquis...I mean..what kind of idiots would pay that much from mediocre to below-average talent?:?:

I also understand that Freddy is in a walk year. I am fine with the move...I'm just sensitive to a white-flaggy landslide. I don't think it is going to happen...it is just in the back of my mind, so I can understand why some people are panicing. I'll hold my genuine panic until something actually happens, though.

Pitching is apparently at an all time new high premium, and the Sox have a lot of it in the minors, and majors. Lets see what you have up your sleeve Kenny...

soxfanreggie
12-11-2006, 10:36 AM
1.) I extremely dislike when GMs over spend on pitchers like Ted Lilly because it drives the price up of better players who say, "Why the heck is Ted Lilly making more than me?" It's like the Yankees paying an average of $14 million per starting pitcher...I'm surprised they didn't try and go after Santana and sign him to a $20 million contract. They did get Pettitte for $16 million-and who knows, maybe he'll thrive in NY-but he'll have to prove he was worth it. I do give the Yankees credit for getting that OF, Miranda, to sign for $2 mil over 4 years.

2.) With the big money that we saved from Garcia, what are we going to do with it? I mean Floyd and Gio combined can't be more than $1 million. That means we have some nice change to either use towards locking someone up or maybe to a FA that's still out there.

caulfield12
12-11-2006, 11:19 AM
1.) I extremely dislike when GMs over spend on pitchers like Ted Lilly because it drives the price up of better players who say, "Why the heck is Ted Lilly making more than me?" It's like the Yankees paying an average of $14 million per starting pitcher...I'm surprised they didn't try and go after Santana and sign him to a $20 million contract. They did get Pettitte for $16 million-and who knows, maybe he'll thrive in NY-but he'll have to prove he was worth it. I do give the Yankees credit for getting that OF, Miranda, to sign for $2 mil over 4 years.

2.) With the big money that we saved from Garcia, what are we going to do with it? I mean Floyd and Gio combined can't be more than $1 million. That means we have some nice change to either use towards locking someone up or maybe to a FA that's still out there.


Santana is already signed to a VERY affordable contract, $10 million per season for three more years.

The Yankees would have to offer their entire minor league system.