PDA

View Full Version : Williams Comments On Things


Lip Man 1
12-07-2006, 06:51 PM
From Whitesox.com:

Some forceful opinions...

http://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/news/article.jsp?ymd=20061207&content_id=1754278&vkey=news_cws&fext=.jsp&c_id=cws

Lip

SouthSideLove
12-07-2006, 06:58 PM
I'm sorry, but I still cannot justify this trade. Regardless of what it does for the payroll (which was never an issue), or what it sets up for us in the future, there are more immediate concerns for Williams to address at this point. How about starting with Crede and the arbitration situation? If we're not careful, we'll end up losing this guy to someone else, maybe in the division.

Bottom line, if Williams was adamant on trading Garcia, at least put out a deal that could restore Aaron Roward to the South Side. Kenny, we've trusted you before, even with the Carlos Lee/Posednik trade, but what exactly are you thinking here?

SABRSox
12-07-2006, 07:01 PM
Forget about Rowand. I don't know if this is a good trade or not. I won't know until 2 or 3 years from now, but the decision making process behind the trade is sound, and I'm giving Kenny the benefit of the doubt.

KW is right about the insane price of mediocrity. All these pitcher contracts are going to look bad in a year or two, and hopefully by then, the market corrects itsself.

Use the $10mil now free to extend Buehrle and/or Crede, and let's move on to baseball.

voodoochile
12-07-2006, 07:04 PM
He's right about the veteran FA's at the bottom of the column. Look at the Yankees the last 5 years. Tons of FA talent, but the results don't justify the moves.

Sox are still contenders for the Pennant as things sit now that is before any other moves are made and like it or not, McCarthy has to get his chance to prove he is the pitcher most of us think he is/can be.

If in the end, they can use the money that they "don't need" to bolster another part of the team, then great. If they don't, they still don't suck...

Cuck_The_Fubs
12-07-2006, 07:07 PM
I'm sorry, but I still cannot justify this trade. Regardless of what it does for the payroll (which was never an issue), or what it sets up for us in the future, there are more immediate concerns for Williams to address at this point. How about starting with Crede and the arbitration situation? If we're not careful, we'll end up losing this guy to someone else, maybe in the division.

Bottom line, if Williams was adamant on trading Garcia, at least put out a deal that could restore Aaron Roward to the South Side. Kenny, we've trusted you before, even with the Carlos Lee/Posednik trade, but what exactly are you thinking here?

Well said, brother. Well said.

JermaineDye05
12-07-2006, 07:07 PM
I'm sorry, but I still cannot justify this trade. Regardless of what it does for the payroll (which was never an issue), or what it sets up for us in the future, there are more immediate concerns for Williams to address at this point. How about starting with Crede and the arbitration situation? If we're not careful, we'll end up losing this guy to someone else, maybe in the division.

Bottom line, if Williams was adamant on trading Garcia, at least put out a deal that could restore Aaron Roward to the South Side. Kenny, we've trusted you before, even with the Carlos Lee/Posednik trade, but what exactly are you thinking here?


regarding extending Crede, the money we saved up in the deal could in fact be put into extending Joe. Although, I feel the best bet would be to extend Buehrle, as much as I love Joe, pitching is the key in this game and we have a young 3B who appears to be ready and I'm sure Buehrle will bounce back this season (knock on wood).

Daver
12-07-2006, 07:10 PM
regarding extending Crede, the money we saved up in the deal could in fact be put into extending Joe. Although, I feel the best bet would be to extend Buehrle, as much as I love Joe, pitching is the key in this game and we have a young 3B who appears to be ready and I'm sure Buehrle will bounce back this season (knock on wood).

Josh Fields isn't even half the defensive ballplayer Joe Crede is.

What I have to wonder is why the hell anyone would want Rowand back?

voodoochile
12-07-2006, 07:11 PM
regarding extending Crede, the money we saved up in the deal could in fact be put into extending Joe. Although, I feel the best bet would be to extend Buehrle, as much as I love Joe, pitching is the key in this game and we have a young 3B who appears to be ready and I'm sure Buehrle will bounce back this season (knock on wood).

The Sox may intentionally be going year to year with Crede to ensure his back holds up and to see how Fields deveolps. If Fields is the real deal and so far it looks like he could be, they can afford to lose Crede.

I am pretty sure Crede has this year and next of arbitration before UFA hits, so the Sox can sign him to a one year deal or go with the arbitration number and wait to see how the rest plays out. If Crede gets hurt or has a worse year and/or Fields plays lights out, Crede becomes a powerful piece of tradebait this summer or next off season.

Not in a hurry at all on that situation...

Cuck the Fubs
12-07-2006, 07:14 PM
I understand Kenny's stance.........

And after a while to think it over, I'm okay with what he did with Freddy, because I believe Kenny is right about a market correction. If he keeps making wise choices the Sox could find themselves in a strong position for years to come.

However, I don't agree with this rumored Garland deal, and hope it Kenny is telling the truth when he strongly denies this rumor.

JermaineDye05
12-07-2006, 07:14 PM
Josh Fields isn't even half the defensive ballplayer Joe Crede is.

What I have to wonder is why the hell anyone would want Rowand back?

That's a bold statement in my opinion. I realize we didn't see much of Josh at 3rd last year but from what I saw he looked pretty solid, especially in that Minnesota series. Now Crede is easily better defensively then Josh, I'll give you that, but I think he's a lot better then you think.

Cuck the Fubs
12-07-2006, 07:15 PM
What I have to wonder is why the hell anyone would want Rowand back?

He loves Da Bears!:cool:

Harry Potter
12-07-2006, 07:16 PM
Bottom line, if Williams was adamant on trading Garcia, at least put out a deal that could restore Aaron Roward to the South Side.

Can we institute a moratorium on the Bring Back Aaron Rowand Campaign (AKA Why Wasnt Rowand Included in the Trade? Rally) ???

Enough already. I enjoyed ARow's time on the Southside as much as the next guy but seriously people, he is not part of the Sox' plans.

Let's move on to the next topic of debate...

voodoochile
12-07-2006, 07:18 PM
That's a bold statement in my opinion. I realize we didn't see much of Josh at 3rd last year but from what I saw he looked pretty solid, especially in that Minnesota series. Now Crede is easily better defensively then Josh, I'll give you that, but I think he's a lot better then you think.

Isn't Fields' bat rated as a #3 or 4 hitter if he develops as expected?

Crede's a nice bat, but he's not that good.

SABRSox
12-07-2006, 07:19 PM
Isn't Fields' bat rated as a #3 or 4 hitter if he develops as expected?

Crede's a nice bat, but he's not that good.

In a perfect world, we end up with a CF who can lead off and steal bases, Fields moves into LF, and we sign Ichiro to play RF after next season.

Edit: In an even more perfect world, BA becomes above average, and we give him a mulligan on last year.

Daver
12-07-2006, 07:20 PM
That's a bold statement in my opinion. I realize we didn't see much of Josh at 3rd last year but from what I saw he looked pretty solid, especially in that Minnesota series. Now Crede is easily better defensively then Josh, I'll give you that, but I think he's a lot better then you think.

I've got two years worth of tape of him playing in the minors, no comparison can be made. He's not Carlos Lee bad at third, but he will never have the range or the first step that Crede does.

Daver
12-07-2006, 07:21 PM
In a perfect world, we end up with a CF who can lead off and steal bases, Fields moves into LF, and we sign Ichiro to play RF after next season.

Yeah, Ozuna proved what great things happen when you stick an infielder in left field.

SABRSox
12-07-2006, 07:22 PM
Yeah, Ozuna proved what great things happen when you stick an infielder in left field.

Well, my thoughts are if Carlos Lee could do it, certainly Fields can do it, and probably much better than Carlos ever did. It's not like the great defensive outfielders play LF anyway.

jenn2080
12-07-2006, 07:24 PM
Josh Fields isn't even half the defensive ballplayer Joe Crede is.

What I have to wonder is why the hell anyone would want Rowand back?





Because he had great energy in the Clubhouse. :rolleyes:

EMachine10
12-07-2006, 07:32 PM
Everyone needs to forget about Rowand. Move on, it's over. He's not coming back.......................................Ok, let's move on. Think about this: Garcia prolly wasnt coming back after this year. How much was he gonna command? Meche and Lilly, both of whom leave much to be desired, got lots of money. What's Freddy gonna get? Like 15 a year? His arm is gone, and this way we get two young pitchers who we can evaluate in a few years. Remember, KW was reluctant to give up Gio as part of the Thome trade. After a night of sleeping on this, this may not be so bad. We saved $10MM and hey, if Burls does good this year, we use that to resign him.

Daver
12-07-2006, 07:34 PM
Well, my thoughts are if Carlos Lee could do it, certainly Fields can do it, and probably much better than Carlos ever did. It's not like the great defensive outfielders play LF anyway.

Well I guess they could do what Jerry Manuel did, tell Fields to play straight away left, two steps off the warning track, and then cross their fingers when a groundball got past the SS.

SABRSox
12-07-2006, 07:37 PM
Well I guess they could do what Jerry Manuel did, tell Fields to play straight away left, two steps off the warning track, and then cross their fingers when a groundball got past the SS.

Ok, but considering the entire package, offense and defense, would you rather see Fields or Podsednik in LF?

ondafarm
12-07-2006, 07:37 PM
I agree with Daver that Fields is no defensive substitute for Crede. He has gotten better, a lot better, in the past year, but we aren't talking about defensive replacement yet.

As for plunking him down in left field, while I give you, left field is one of the leats important defensive positions, most guys are infielders or outfielders and some can play the other, but major league baseball should be about having guys at their natural position. I think Fields will be a great bargaining chip for next year when Mr Boras will get his money for Crede. Will it be White Sox money?

oeo
12-07-2006, 07:39 PM
I'm sorry, but I still cannot justify this trade. Regardless of what it does for the payroll (which was never an issue), or what it sets up for us in the future, there are more immediate concerns for Williams to address at this point. How about starting with Crede and the arbitration situation? If we're not careful, we'll end up losing this guy to someone else, maybe in the division.

Bottom line, if Williams was adamant on trading Garcia, at least put out a deal that could restore Aaron Roward to the South Side. Kenny, we've trusted you before, even with the Carlos Lee/Posednik trade, but what exactly are you thinking here?


I'm sorry, but that's bull****. Kenny was under the same scrutiny then as he is now. It wasn't until after he used the extra money to get AJ, Gooch, and El Duque that people said it was a good move. Well, what do you know, history repeats itself once again...

The offseason isn't over, I think it's a little harsh to start calling for Kenny's head. If everything pans out the way it's planned, you people will be the same one's saying that you knew from day one that Kenny was going to make things work. And if they don't...you'll be the first one's to tell us, "I told you so." If you haven't noticed, Kenny takes risks, and most of the time he ends up being right. So how about waiting it out and showing a little faith in the GM that put together a World Championship team just two years ago? It's much easier being a critic, though, isn't it?

TaylorStSox
12-07-2006, 07:40 PM
People keep talking about how valuable Garcia is in the current market. IMO, the current market doesn't make Garcia more valuable. It makes blue chip pitching prospects more valuable. All but 2 or 3 teams are going to have to rely more on their farm than they ever have. As a result, the best we could land was a talented project and a legit prospect with durability concerns.

DickAllen72
12-07-2006, 07:48 PM
People keep talking about how valuable Garcia is in the current market. IMO, the current market doesn't make Garcia more valuable. It makes blue chip pitching prospects more valuable. All but 2 or 3 teams are going to have to rely more on their farm than they ever have. As a result, the best we could land was a talented project and a legit prospect with durability concerns.

Ding! Ding! Ding! We have a winner!!!

That's what I've been saying. Who is going to give up good young talent for a pitcher they cannot afford to sign after only one year? And if a team can afford to spend that kind of money on a pitcher, why not just spend it on a free agent, lock him up for a few years and not give up any talent in the process?

KW knows what he's doing. He must have fielded multiple offers for Freddy and this is the best one he got.

Daver
12-07-2006, 07:50 PM
Ok, but considering the entire package, offense and defense, would you rather see Fields or Podsednik in LF?

Podsednik, he can play left, he can work a count, and when he gets on base he automatically makes the two and three hitters better, because he rattles the pitcher.

Fields has yet to prove he can hit MLB pitching.

SABRSox
12-07-2006, 07:57 PM
Podsednik, he can play left, he can work a count, and when he gets on base he automatically makes the two and three hitters better, because he rattles the pitcher.

Fields has yet to prove he can hit MLB pitching.

He might be able to work a count, be he has a problem of looking at curveballs for strike three...

I will give you the part about Fields still having to prove he can hit MLB pitching, but if he's as good as touted, he'll not only hit it, but hit well.

ewokpelts
12-07-2006, 08:07 PM
In a perfect world, we end up with a CF who can lead off and steal bases, Fields moves into LF, and we sign Ichiro to play RF after next season.

Edit: In an even more perfect world, BA becomes above average, and we give him a mulligan on last year.
Anderson batted NINTH IN THE ****ING BATTING ORDER! WHAT DO YOU ****ING EXPECT HIM TO DO? HIT THE **** OUT OF THE ****ING BALL EVERY GODDAMM TIME?

the 9th batter in an AL lineup is usually your weakest hitter, but pretty good with his glove. Who would you rather have out in center? Mackawack, or Brando? I dont care how well mackawack hits, he sure cant field for **** in center.
And, If I'm not mistaken, Anderson hit BETTER than the GREAT Juan Uribe at times last year. I've said it before, KW traded for Thome to replace BOTH Thomas AND Rowand's bats. Anderson hitting anywhere near .300 is a bonus, especially at one point when there were 6-7 players batting close to .300.

**** this noise, I'm done with this bull****,
Gene

Jurr
12-07-2006, 08:11 PM
I'm sorry, but I still cannot justify this trade. Regardless of what it does for the payroll (which was never an issue), or what it sets up for us in the future, there are more immediate concerns for Williams to address at this point. How about starting with Crede and the arbitration situation? If we're not careful, we'll end up losing this guy to someone else, maybe in the division.

Bottom line, if Williams was adamant on trading Garcia, at least put out a deal that could restore Aaron Roward to the South Side. Kenny, we've trusted you before, even with the Carlos Lee/Posednik trade, but what exactly are you thinking here?

AAAAron ROWARD!!!! Love it! I googled this guy, and he has good form. I wholeheartedly agree that we should've gotten Roward back, though I never knew we had him.
http://images.google.com/images?q=tbn:iy5RGhXLbryiQM:http://sport.jdmag.net/img-news.asp%3FId%3D78027%26country%3DenViva AARON ROWARD!

SluggersAway
12-07-2006, 08:14 PM
KW traded for Thome to replace BOTH Thomas AND Rowand's bats.

If Kenny did try to do that he did a pretty piss poor job of it.

fquaye149
12-07-2006, 08:21 PM
If Kenny did try to do that he did a pretty piss poor job of it.:rolleyes:

Daver
12-07-2006, 08:30 PM
I will give you the part about Fields still having to prove he can hit MLB pitching, but if he's as good as touted, he'll not only hit it, but hit well.

And when he falls on his face the way Crede did his first two years, are you gonna be the first to call for his head, because he couldn't adjust to changing positions and learning to hit MLB pitching?

Beautox
12-07-2006, 08:42 PM
That's a bold statement in my opinion. I realize we didn't see much of Josh at 3rd last year but from what I saw he looked pretty solid, especially in that Minnesota series. Now Crede is easily better defensively then Josh, I'll give you that, but I think he's a lot better then you think.

I agree, people think Josh is an incapable third basemen, him moving to LF is only a product of Crede staying at 3rd and the sox wanting to use their resources to the best of their ability.

Josh has 30/30 potential, and hes a good defender. I get tired of people ragging on his defense when he very well could be as good as Chavez or Crede down the road.

Fields, Age 23, SL, 133 games, 358 TC, 24 E, 22 DP, .933 FPCT
Crede, Age 22, SL, 135 games, 328 TC, 19 E, 20 DP, .942 FPCT

Frank the Tank
12-07-2006, 08:48 PM
From Whitesox.com:

Some forceful opinions...

http://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/news/article.jsp?ymd=20061207&content_id=1754278&vkey=news_cws&fext=.jsp&c_id=cws

Lip

To me the most important Williams comment regarding the trade is the following quote copied from Whitesox.com:

"I think the Phillies just acquired a 17-to-20-game winner," said Williams of Garcia

Assuming KW was being honest with his statement, why would any GM serious about winning a World Series trade away a perceived 17+ game proven winner for prospects? I like B. McCarthy, but I personally don't expect him to win more than 12 games. Have our goals for 2007 changed from winning another World Series to developing prospects? I have been a KW backer, but this trade really bothers me.

Having said that, I've come to learn with KW to expect the unexpected. Maybe he knows something we don't. I can only hope he has something up his sleeve that will make this deal make sense.

Daver
12-07-2006, 08:50 PM
I agree, people think Josh is an incapable third basemen, him moving to LF is only a product of Crede staying at 3rd and the sox wanting to use their resources to the best of their ability.

Josh has 30/30 potential, and hes a good defender. I get tired of people ragging on his defense when he very well could be as good as Chavez or Crede down the road.

Fields, Age 23, SL, 133 games, 358 TC, 24 E, 22 DP, .933 FPCT
Crede, Age 22, SL, 135 games, 328 TC, 19 E, 20 DP, .942 FPCT

Don't show me numbers, watch them play and compare.

Crede helped sweep a world series with his glove, don't hold your breath waiting for Fields to do it.

sox230
12-07-2006, 08:51 PM
Everybody says we need speed and defense for our non-power slots- which are LF, CF, and SS. So why are we focusing on LF where there is speed and CF where we have defense. How boating unloading Uribe who sucks at hitting, clogs up the bases, and although he is good on defense, he has gotten progressively worse. TRADE JUAN!!! We don't need a CF or LF as much as we need a SS!

oeo
12-07-2006, 09:11 PM
Everybody says we need speed and defense for our non-power slots- which are LF, CF, and SS. So why are we focusing on LF where there is speed and CF where we have defense. How boating unloading Uribe who sucks at hitting, clogs up the bases, and although he is good on defense, he has gotten progressively worse. TRADE JUAN!!! We don't need a CF or LF as much as we need a SS!

And who, exactly, do you want them to get? I think you're forgetting how craptacular the free agent market is. There isn't much out there in terms of trade, either. I doubt Young will be moved...who do you want them to get? Would you have rather they signed Alex Gonzalez?

Brian26
12-07-2006, 09:12 PM
To me the most important Williams comment regarding the trade is the following quote copied from Whitesox.com:

"I think the Phillies just acquired a 17-to-20-game winner," said Williams of Garcia

Assuming KW was being honest with his statement,...

Why are you assuming he's being honest? I'm sure KW wants to maintain a working relationship with Gillick and every other GM out there, and there's nothing to gain from KW telling the media Garcia is on the downside of his career. If Garcia fails next year, KW looks like a genius no matter what.

And for what it's worth, 17 wins in the NL probably equates to 13 or 14 in the AL.

Beautox
12-07-2006, 09:15 PM
Don't show me numbers, watch them play and compare.

Crede helped sweep a world series with his glove, don't hold your breath waiting for Fields to do it.

Funny you say that, i have family in Asheville NC, and thats a lil over 2 hours from Charlotte, i was also there for his first ml AB against the tigers. He has good foot work and a good arm, at the very least he could become ML average with the potential for much more, hes incredibly athletic, people weren't saying GG when Chavez came up.

oeo
12-07-2006, 09:15 PM
To me the most important Williams comment regarding the trade is the following quote copied from Whitesox.com:

"I think the Phillies just acquired a 17-to-20-game winner," said Williams of Garcia

Assuming KW was being honest with his statement, why would any GM serious about winning a World Series trade away a perceived 17+ game proven winner for prospects? I like B. McCarthy, but I personally don't expect him to win more than 12 games. Have our goals for 2007 changed from winning another World Series to developing prospects? I have been a KW backer, but this trade really bothers me.

Having said that, I've come to learn with KW to expect the unexpected. Maybe he knows something we don't. I can only hope he has something up his sleeve that will make this deal make sense.

Garcia won 17 games last year because he had one of the better offenses in the league. It had nothing to do with him pitching well, as he only pitched well in September.

And as for Fields, I still think he's being highly underrated as a defender. He made three very good plays at the end of the year, so I'm going to continue to believe that he will be a fine defender until he shows he's not.

Beautox
12-07-2006, 09:24 PM
And as for Fields, I still think he's being highly underrated as a defender. He made three very good plays at the end of the year, and unless those were flukes, I'm going to continue to believe that he will be a fine defender until he shows he's not.

:cheers:

I know opponents of Fields are already preparing a statement like "well so does Scott podsednik, infact he had a great play in Detroit does that mean hes a good defensive LFer?", the answer to that is no.

the numbers and what I've seen with my own eyes speak for my opinion on josh, hes underrated defensively. As for Crede sweeping the WS with his glove, whats to say if Josh was put into the same position he couldn't do it either?

churlish
12-07-2006, 09:25 PM
To me the most important Williams comment regarding the trade is the following quote copied from Whitesox.com:

"I think the Phillies just acquired a 17-to-20-game winner," said Williams of Garcia

Assuming KW was being honest with his statement, why would any GM serious about winning a World Series trade away a perceived 17+ game proven winner for prospects? I like B. McCarthy, but I personally don't expect him to win more than 12 games. Have our goals for 2007 changed from winning another World Series to developing prospects? I have been a KW backer, but this trade really bothers me.

Having said that, I've come to learn with KW to expect the unexpected. Maybe he knows something we don't. I can only hope he has something up his sleeve that will make this deal make sense.

Garcia is going to the National League and will be playing on a team with a great offense. His ERA will drop considerably (even in that park).

A lower ERA and continued run support = 17-20 game winner.

He won 17 with a crappy ERA. Wins aren't everything.

And, once again, trading Garcia didn't negatively affect the 2007 Sox much, but it potentially made them much better in 2007 and beyond.

Let's see what Williams does the rest of the offseason before judging him on this trade. He has more cash to use, as a result, also.

soxfan26
12-07-2006, 09:31 PM
One reporter used the word "arrogance" in a column to describe Williams' unwillingness to sign his own quality starters to long-term extensions, let alone jump into the market and start spending. Williams sees it as the best plan to keep his team successful.


The more I think about what it would have taken to sign Freddy long term the more I soften my position on this trade. At 32, he would have been looking for a 4-5 year deal worth $12-$15m per year. I wouldn't want Kenny to make that deal.

Is it arrogant to not sign aging pitchers that appear to be declining? Not in my mind.

oeo
12-07-2006, 09:32 PM
:cheers:

I know opponents of Fields are already preparing a statement like "well so does Scott podsednik, infact he had a great play in Detroit does that mean hes a good defensive LFer?", the answer to that is no.

the numbers and what I've seen with my own eyes speak for my opinion on josh, hes underrated defensively. As for Crede sweeping the WS with his glove, whats to say if Josh was put into the same position he couldn't do it either?

Here are some plays he made, all of them within a week...
One on a bunt by Punto. (mms://a1503.v108692.c10869.g.vm.akamaistream.net/7/1503/10869/v0001/mlb.download.akamai.com/10869/2006/open/tp/archive09/093006_chamin_fields_def_tp_350.wmv)
Another on a ground ball down the line, in which he shows the cannon he has. (mms://a1503.v108692.c10869.g.vm.akamaistream.net/7/1503/10869/v0001/mlb.download.akamai.com/10869/2006/open/tp/archive10/100106_chamin_fields_def_tp_350.wmv)
Hard hit grounder. (mms://a1503.v108692.c10869.g.vm.akamaistream.net/7/1503/10869/v0001/mlb.download.akamai.com/10869/2006/open/tp/archive09/092506_chacle_fields_def_tp_350.wmv)Right before that bunt against Punto, I believe he made a nice play on a bunt...that one isn't online though.

caulfield12
12-07-2006, 09:36 PM
From Whitesox.com:

Some forceful opinions...

http://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/news/article.jsp?ymd=20061207&content_id=1754278&vkey=news_cws&fext=.jsp&c_id=cws

Lip


I think Williams is being smart in "tacking" against the mainstream. This contrarian approach (like Warren Buffett during the late 90's) will come back into vogue when the market corrects itself again.

Look at the division, nobody has the resources to come after us with the exception of Detroit in terms of spending.

They've got a ton of money sunk into Sheffield, Ordonez, Guillen and I-Rod, all aging players...not going to end like Higginson, Dean Palmer or Juan-Gone, but they're VERY vulnerable.

It will be interesting to see how they are able to keep Bonderman, Robertson, Maroth, etc., as those salaries go through the roof, especially Bonderman, the Tigers' version of Jon Garland.

Two months before the end of the season, I wasn't even sure if we could give away Garcia without having to subsidize his contract. How times have changed.

DickAllen72
12-07-2006, 09:40 PM
I think Williams is being smart in "tacking" against the mainstream.

I agree with you.

I hope that deal for Hirsch and a couple of other young players goes through with the Astros. I think KW is way ahead of the curve--again.

Ol' No. 2
12-07-2006, 09:45 PM
And who, exactly, do you want them to get? I think you're forgetting how craptacular the free agent market is. There isn't much out there in terms of trade, either. I doubt Young will be moved...who do you want them to get? Would you have rather they signed Alex Gonzalez?Wait. You expect people to actually come up with a rational alternative? What a spoilsport.

fquaye149
12-07-2006, 10:10 PM
I think Williams is being smart in "tacking" against the mainstream. This contrarian approach (like Warren Buffett during the late 90's) will come back into vogue when the market corrects itself again.

Look at the division, nobody has the resources to come after us with the exception of Detroit in terms of spending.

They've got a ton of money sunk into Sheffield, Ordonez, Guillen and I-Rod, all aging players...not going to end like Higginson, Dean Palmer or Juan-Gone, but they're VERY vulnerable.

It will be interesting to see how they are able to keep Bonderman, Robertson, Maroth, etc., as those salaries go through the roof, especially Bonderman, the Tigers' version of Jon Garland.

Two months before the end of the season, I wasn't even sure if we could give away Garcia without having to subsidize his contract. How times have changed.

Basically Williams is out-"moneyballing" Mr. Moneyball himself (barf)....actually out "moneyballing" pretty much everyone except Terry Ryan who has essentially always been the best.

Of course when Kenny does it it's called silly, or foolish, or worst of all "cheap".

You find the way to build a team without paying ridiculous amounts of money for guys you don't really want on your team anyway (Ted Lilly anyone?)

sox1970
12-07-2006, 10:29 PM
Speaking of Kenny's comments, I found something very funny.

Go to whitesox.com. Click on "Williams on getting Floyd", and watch the end of the interview. Apparently Kenny has had enough of these dumb interviews. Hilarious.

Fake Chet Lemon
12-07-2006, 10:33 PM
Maybe Kenny is squirreling away money to grab Carlos DumbRano next year? Ozzie said he was PO'd about all the Caucasian pitchers in the organization last year, I'm sure Ozzie would love a fellow countryman who is young and strong as a bull to match up with Santana in the division. Then again, it seems so against Kenny's nature to throw away 2007. He must have current plans for Garcia's $10mil........

sox102
12-07-2006, 10:36 PM
Can we institute a moratorium on the Bring Back Aaron Rowand Campaign (AKA Why Wasnt Rowand Included in the Trade? Rally) ???

Enough already. I enjoyed ARow's time on the Southside as much as the next guy but seriously people, he is not part of the Sox' plans.

Let's move on to the next topic of debate...

I agree 250% Enough with talking about bringing Rowand back already!! It's NOT going to happen!! Deal with it!! :mad:

SABRSox
12-07-2006, 10:52 PM
And when he falls on his face the way Crede did his first two years, are you gonna be the first to call for his head, because he couldn't adjust to changing positions and learning to hit MLB pitching?

Me? No. Hell, I still want to see BA as our starting CF.

oeo
12-07-2006, 11:10 PM
I agree with you.

I hope that deal for Hirsch and a couple of other young players goes through with the Astros. I think KW is way ahead of the curve--again.

I don't. In contrast to the Garcia trade, Garland should net a big return. And I know, well that's what they said about Garcia too. BUT, Garland is younger, gives you a ton of innings, and the biggest difference of all...he's still under contract for two more years, and pretty cheap at that. If Garland is traded, it should be for more.

wulfy
12-07-2006, 11:23 PM
Speaking of Kenny's comments, I found something very funny.

Go to whitesox.com. Click on "Williams on getting Floyd", and watch the end of the interview. Apparently Kenny has had enough of these dumb interviews. Hilarious.

Nice eye roll at the very end, Kenny. :rolleyes:

DickAllen72
12-07-2006, 11:29 PM
I don't. In contrast to the Garcia trade, Garland should net a big return. And I know, well that's what they said about Garcia too. BUT, Garland is younger, gives you a ton of innings, and the biggest difference of all...he's still under contract for two more years, and pretty cheap at that. If Garland is traded, it should be for more.

Yes, I agree--if Garland is traded it would be for more than Hirsch. Apparently KW already turned down Hisch, Bucholz(sp?) and Tavares. I hope the Sox do work out a deal to acquire Hirsch along with some other young players.

jabrch
12-08-2006, 01:32 AM
I think Williams is being smart in "tacking" against the mainstream. This contrarian approach (like Warren Buffett during the late 90's) will come back into vogue when the market corrects itself again.

Look at the division, nobody has the resources to come after us with the exception of Detroit in terms of spending.

They've got a ton of money sunk into Sheffield, Ordonez, Guillen and I-Rod, all aging players...not going to end like Higginson, Dean Palmer or Juan-Gone, but they're VERY vulnerable.

It will be interesting to see how they are able to keep Bonderman, Robertson, Maroth, etc., as those salaries go through the roof, especially Bonderman, the Tigers' version of Jon Garland.

Two months before the end of the season, I wasn't even sure if we could give away Garcia without having to subsidize his contract. How times have changed.


That's a great freaking post. Nice job.

Freddy is good - but not great. I'm sure KW talked to every GM looking for pitching, and this was the best trade available in his eyes. I trust him. Over the past 3 years, he has proven himself to be one of the best few GMs in the game. He's assembles a team that won 189 games in two years, is talented at the major league level and the farm, and is poised to compete for the post season for the foreseeable future.

If Floyd and Gio is the best we could get, then I have no problem with this.

I'll miss Freddy. I'm a big fan of his. But I trust KW more than I will miss Garcia.

Corlose 15
12-08-2006, 01:52 AM
Another thing to think about with all of this, kind of going along with Caulfield's point, is that both Detroit and Minnesota have a lot of impressive young arms in the minors that will be coming up in the next few years so Kenny dealing Garcia for a couple good young arms isn't such a bad idea.

OzzyTrain
12-08-2006, 01:57 AM
I know why money is not an issue, I know I know, I know

4.50 nachos
5.00 pop
4.50 hot dog

Yep and the list could go on.

DSpivack
12-08-2006, 02:16 AM
I know why money is not an issue, I know I know, I know

4.50 nachos
5.00 pop
4.50 hot dog

Yep and the list could go on.

And this differs how from every other team in baseball? We'll still have a $100 million payroll in 2007. Not $120 million, not $65 million. Remember, in 2005 our payroll was in the 60s, and years before the Sox were an organization on the cheap, despite being competitive year in, year out. I don't understand why people all the sudden think we're going to revert to a $50 million payroll, or whatever have you. We can't compete with the likes of the Cubs, Yankees, or Mets in terms of salaries, and yet we can still outspend the likes of Minnesota, for example. This has not changed in the last few years, nor will it change sometime soon.

Maybe Kenny is squirreling away money to grab Carlos DumbRano next year? Ozzie said he was PO'd about all the Caucasian pitchers in the organization last year, I'm sure Ozzie would love a fellow countryman who is young and strong as a bull to match up with Santana in the division. Then again, it seems so against Kenny's nature to throw away 2007. He must have current plans for Garcia's $10mil........

Freddy Garcia, Javier Vazquez, Jose Contreras.:?:

kittle42
12-08-2006, 02:31 AM
Ozzie said he was PO'd about all the Caucasian pitchers in the organization last year, I'm sure Ozzie would love a fellow countryman

Ugh.

PaulDrake
12-08-2006, 09:22 AM
As for Crede sweeping the WS with his glove, whats to say if Josh was put into the same position he couldn't do it either? Me, I'll say it right now. Fields may or may not some day be a decent player. He'll never be another Joe Crede in the field.

1951Campbell
12-08-2006, 10:37 AM
I think Williams is being smart in "tacking" against the mainstream. This contrarian approach (like Warren Buffett during the late 90's) will come back into vogue when the market corrects itself again.


Contrarian is fine, but right now there's a small whiff of petulance comng from Kenny. But, as ever, it is early in the off-season.

caulfield12
12-08-2006, 10:52 AM
Contrarian is fine, but right now there's a small whiff of petulance comng from Kenny. But, as ever, it is early in the off-season.

I don't care if he runs up and down Michigan Avenue like Will Ferrell in "Old School" protesting the "new market/irrational exuberance" by going streaking and walking up to the KFC drive-through.

As long as he doesn't make stupid moves like the rest of the teams.

Then he can sit back and pick them apart for talent 2-3 years from now, getting those teams to not only give away talent, but getting money to subsidize them as well (like Thome, Contreras and Vazquez).

We're never on the wrong side of those types of deals where we've had to dump someone...the closest was El Duque after last season.

Lip Man 1
12-08-2006, 01:58 PM
Caulfield:

Your assuming that at some point in a year or two the owners will look at each other and start screaming about a 'market correction' aren't you?

What if they don't?

MLB increased their revenues by almost two billion dollars over the past five years. Money is literally pouring in through old and new revenue streams. The internet and games on computers fueling it. MLB also has a new five year labor agreement.

History shows you are probably right but with all this money there are no guarantees. If that happens and all these players don't drop into the Sox laps by clubs wanting to unload contracts (and paying part of the salary to the Sox to do so) what then?

What's 'plan B'

Lip

1951Campbell
12-09-2006, 01:06 PM
I don't care if he runs up and down Michigan Avenue like Will Ferrell in "Old School" protesting the "new market/irrational exuberance" by going streaking and walking up to the KFC drive-through.

As long as he doesn't make stupid moves like the rest of the teams.

Then he can sit back and pick them apart for talent 2-3 years from now, getting those teams to not only give away talent, but getting money to subsidize them as well (like Thome, Contreras and Vazquez).

We're never on the wrong side of those types of deals where we've had to dump someone...the closest was El Duque after last season.

A couple things here:

I'm not necessarily worried about "stupid moves", I'm worried about going cheap. KW can say X amount of dollars for a player of Y caliber is ridiculous, but if everyone is willing to pay X amount of dollars for a player of Y caliber except KW, that constrains the Sox. JR is bitching about the new CBA too, I believe. Coincidence?

Also, 2-3 years? Are the Sox trying to win now or later? I, like many fans was under the impression that the Sox are trying to win now. Has that changed? I can't really tell.

fquaye149
12-09-2006, 01:30 PM
A couple things here:

I'm not necessarily worried about "stupid moves", I'm worried about going cheap. KW can say X amount of dollars for a player of Y caliber is ridiculous, but if everyone is willing to pay X amount of dollars for a player of Y caliber except KW, that constrains the Sox. JR is bitching about the new CBA too, I believe. Coincidence?

Also, 2-3 years? Are the Sox trying to win now or later? I, like many fans was under the impression that the Sox are trying to win now. Has that changed? I can't really tell.

Look---player values are relative to the market, yes, but this isn't inflation. Those $$$ values still have relevance to reality. There's no need to spend 10 million dollars on a Ted Lilly (even if that's a fair market value) when the likelihood is that there's SOMEONE in your system who will be able to pitch like Ted Lilly.

And if you stock up on great prospects (like KW has) there is likely to be a number of pitchers in your system who are better than Ted Lilly.

That's what's going on here. Our rotation is pretty good for this year (certainly every pitcher is probably better than Ted Lilly). What Kenny's doing is, since we have pitching now, and we will NEED pitching later, assuring that we don't have to overspend on Ted Lilly later. Why do we, unlike the Cubs and other teams, have no need to overspend on Ted Lilly now? Because Kenny has, generally, made good moves in the system and in trading for quality pitching talent. He's found undervalued players like Contreras and Freddy, and had system guys like Buehrle and Garland and Jenks and Thornton perform.

Because, as a human being, not a ****ing rotisserie owner, paying 10 million dollars to a chump like Ted Lilly is ridiculous, and it doesn't matter how many morons like Bill Bavasi and Jim Hendry and JP Ricciardi are willing to do it

caulfield12
12-09-2006, 01:32 PM
Caulfield:

Your assuming that at some point in a year or two the owners will look at each other and start screaming about a 'market correction' aren't you?

What if they don't?

MLB increased their revenues by almost two billion dollars over the past five years. Money is literally pouring in through old and new revenue streams. The internet and games on computers fueling it. MLB also has a new five year labor agreement.

History shows you are probably right but with all this money there are no guarantees. If that happens and all these players don't drop into the Sox laps by clubs wanting to unload contracts (and paying part of the salary to the Sox to do so) what then?

What's 'plan B'

Lip


Owens, Sweeney, Anderson, Fields, Stewart, Haeger, Broadway, Gonzalez and Floyd all with major roles on the Sox.

That's the "nuclear winter" scenario, lol, heading us back to the late 80's or late 90's.

This is just like the Dutch Tulip Craze or the Nasdaq expansion from 1995-2000, or, more recently, the current real estate bubble.

You know Contreras will be around through 2009, Vazquez through 2008 (if we decide he's worth it) and McCarthy as well.

We know we have four minor league starters now (Floyd, Gonzalez, Haeger and Broadway) and the odds with the Sox are that ONE of them will develop into a regular in the rotation.

That only leaves one hole, and we have Buehrle still to utilize as a trading marker.

We also have Dye and Crede, not to mention Jenks, Thornton and MacDougal, who have tremendous value to other clubs due to their contracts.

OTOH, you keep Crede and you still have Fields, Sweeney or Anderson that has trade value.

DickAllen72
12-09-2006, 01:41 PM
Our rotation is pretty good for this year (certainly every pitcher is probably better than Ted Lilly). What Kenny's doing is, since we have pitching now, and we will NEED pitching later, assuring that we don't have to overspend on Ted Lilly later. Why do we, unlike the Cubs and other teams, have no need to overspend on Ted Lilly now? Because Kenny has, generally, made good moves in the system and in trading for quality pitching talent. He's found undervalued players like Contreras and Freddy, and had system guys like Buehrle and Garland and Jenks and Thornton perform.

Right on the money!:thumbsup:

ZombieRob
12-09-2006, 01:53 PM
OK i do have some problems with everything that has gone down .And i do see both points of the issue .Mediocre players getting big bucks etc etc .But it also scares me when Williams wont get into that game .Regardless what he thinks baseball has been heading this way for years .Ive heard excuses from KW and Jerry before that they can't spend the $$ because we don't fill the stands etc etc .Well if I'm right attendance records were broken as well as T.V revenue .I can see his point were he has to dump some good players to restock the farm .but don't dump players just because you want to dump potential high salaries .I just do not want to see the same under spending we used to see in 70's 80's and part of the 90's .And as fans of this team we have held our part and deserve a potential winning team on the field each year .

fquaye149
12-09-2006, 02:07 PM
OK i do have some problems with everything that has gone down .And i do see both points of the issue .Mediocre players getting big bucks etc etc .But it also scares me when Williams wont get into that game .Regardless what he thinks baseball has been heading this way for years .Ive heard excuses from KW and Jerry before that they can't spend the $$ because we don't fill the stands etc etc .Well if I'm right attendance records were broken as well as T.V revenue .I can see his point were he has to dump some good players to restock the farm .but don't dump players just because you want to dump potential high salaries .I just do not want to see the same under spending we used to see in 70's 80's and part of the 90's .And as fans of this team we have held our part and deserve a potential winning team on the field each year .

Williams will probably not cut payroll this year. But he's absolutely right not to go after free agents. Essentially free agents are like an auction where you're forced to overpay.

Better to use $$$ to pay the excess contract in trades you make for known commodity nearing the end of their overblown contract.

guillen4life13
12-09-2006, 02:14 PM
I really do think that people are overreacting a bit. This really isn't the Kids Can Play, redux.

Seriously, the product on the field for next year has not suffered. We have just as good a shot next year as we did this past year, and hopefully we'll have a better shot because our pitchers will pitch to their capabilities. If even one of our starting pitchers pitches to their career norms (cough, Buehrle), there's a very good chance we would have won the division.

I think McCarthy is going to do just as well as Garcia did. The offense is going to improve because hopefully Anderson will develop a little, and Pods will do a little better by going back to his basics, like bunting to keep the defense off balance. Uribe can do a lot better than he did last year also.

If anything, this makes our 2007 team a little better because we now have another possible RHP out of the pen. Now we have to get a good LH reliever, and I think that the Sox are set for 2007.

Fast forward to 2008. Now the Sox have one (or two) starter possibilities that they didn't have before in Gio and Floyd. It's up to coop to work on Floyd, but with prospects (or any player, for that matter), there's always a risk. If Garcia were to stay, the Sox wouldn't have been able to re-sign him given the market.

Pitching won the Sox a World Series in 2005. The offense wasn't even close to being the top in the league. KW wants to sustain the Sox with good pitching for both the present and the future.

The more I think about it, maybe KW did get the best deal he was going to find. The Sox got rid of the commodity they have in excess in an extra SP, and recieved a commodity they sorely lack: viable SP prospects. I'm getting happier and happier with the move. I see it as the Sox moving further and further towards the Twins' model, except that they have a 100M+ payroll. Sure, this trade won't pay its dividends now, but it's not like the Sox just traded their chance at winning it all in 07 away. They just gave themselves a better chance to do it in 08 and beyond as well.

And seriously, people. Do you really think Kenny is done dealing? He just saved 10 million, and you'd better believe that 10 million is going to go to something, whether it be extensions or FA signings (or both).

This team is one LH reliever and MAYBE a RH reliever away from being a powerhouse. Again.

Pods
Igoo
Dye
Thome
PK
AJ
Crede
Uribe
Anderson

Mack
Gload
Ozuna
Cintron
Stewart

Buehrle
Garland
Contreras
Vazquez
McCarthy


Floyd/Tracey/Haeger/FAsigning
Aardsma
Insert LHP Here
Thornton
MacDougal
Jenks

Foulke You
12-09-2006, 05:17 PM
Here are some plays he made, all of them within a week...

One on a bunt by Punto. (mms://a1503.v108692.c10869.g.vm.akamaistream.net/7/1503/10869/v0001/mlb.download.akamai.com/10869/2006/open/tp/archive09/093006_chamin_fields_def_tp_350.wmv)
Another on a ground ball down the line, in which he shows the cannon he has. (mms://a1503.v108692.c10869.g.vm.akamaistream.net/7/1503/10869/v0001/mlb.download.akamai.com/10869/2006/open/tp/archive10/100106_chamin_fields_def_tp_350.wmv)
Hard hit grounder. (mms://a1503.v108692.c10869.g.vm.akamaistream.net/7/1503/10869/v0001/mlb.download.akamai.com/10869/2006/open/tp/archive09/092506_chacle_fields_def_tp_350.wmv)Right before that bunt against Punto, I believe he made a nice play on a bunt...that one isn't online though.
Fields looked awfully good on those plays. I know the sample size is small but that kid seems to have the highest ceiling of all of our prospects. Just out of curiousity, someone projected Fields as a 3 or 4 hitter one day. What is his power level like in the minors so far?

caulfield12
12-09-2006, 05:30 PM
Fields looked awfully good on those plays. I know the sample size is small but that kid seems to have the highest ceiling of all of our prospects. Just out of curiousity, someone projected Fields as a 3 or 4 hitter one day. What is his power level like in the minors so far?

Not much better than Sweeney this past year, 2005 was better in Birmingham. I would expect similar number to Crede, MAYBE a few more homers, on average.

Hitmen77
12-09-2006, 06:19 PM
Caulfield:

Your assuming that at some point in a year or two the owners will look at each other and start screaming about a 'market correction' aren't you?

What if they don't?

MLB increased their revenues by almost two billion dollars over the past five years. Money is literally pouring in through old and new revenue streams. The internet and games on computers fueling it. MLB also has a new five year labor agreement.

History shows you are probably right but with all this money there are no guarantees. If that happens and all these players don't drop into the Sox laps by clubs wanting to unload contracts (and paying part of the salary to the Sox to do so) what then?

What's 'plan B'

Lip

I don't expect there to be some specific moment where owners scream market correction. That's not how it's worked in the past. What's happened is that teams that spend foolishly will get saddled with expensive long term contracts on mediocre players. That will make it more difficult for those teams to compete in the FA market in a couple of years.

I see the Garcia trade as KW's "Plan B". If salaries stay insane and they can't hold onto their current starting rotation or sign FAs, then stock up on minor league pitching talent to make it more likely that the team can sustain success.

HarryChappas
12-09-2006, 08:48 PM
Do any of u people really think Kenny doesn't want to win it all this year?
The Garcia trade is a set up for his next move. Vernon Wells or Jones will be or CF next year. KW and JR will then spend money on signing either to a contract because they are premier players (unlike this off-season free agents).
I am sick of people worring about what is going on with the Northside Losers!!!!!!!!

WHO CARES!!!!!!!!!!!

Mohoney
12-10-2006, 07:43 AM
If in the end, they can use the money that they "don't need" to bolster another part of the team, then great. If they don't, they still don't suck...

I think that this is the 100 % correct approach. If McCarthy wasn't going to be moved in a "win now, go for broke" move, then a starter had to go to erase the logjam and allow McCarthy to start, and why not have it be a guy in his walk year?

The move shows that we still place a premium on pitching. We traded a one-year rental pitcher for two guys that we will have for a good while.

My pressing question is this: why is Gavin Floyd's career already declared a bust before he even throws one pitch in our uniform? 100 innings does not a career make.

caulfield12
12-10-2006, 08:41 AM
I think that this is the 100 % correct approach. If McCarthy wasn't going to be moved in a "win now, go for broke" move, then a starter had to go to erase the logjam and allow McCarthy to start, and why not have it be a guy in his walk year?

The move shows that we still place a premium on pitching. We traded a one-year rental pitcher for two guys that we will have for a good while.

My pressing question is this: why is Gavin Floyd's career already declared a bust before he even throws one pitch in our uniform? 100 innings does not a career make.


See Garland, Jon for further reinforcement of this point, both highly-touted #1 draft picks.

Flight #24
12-10-2006, 10:20 AM
This might deserve its own thread given the gnashing and wailing going on, but here's some important comments from KW & JR on whitesox.com.

The topic at hand was the White Sox not needing to trade the big right-hander to the Phillies in order to free up his $10 million salary slot due to budgetary concerns.

"You know what I just said," asked Williams with a broad smile. "I just said that payroll was not a factor whatsoever. I don't know since I've been in this position that I've had the luxury to say that. "It feels good. In order to keep that going, you better keep winning and I know it."

So to everyone complaining about salary reduction, dump, etc - payroll is not an issue. It's KW's sense of what players are worth. It's fair to complain about that if you disagree, but at it's heart, that's a baseball decision, not one coming from ownership, which is really all you can ask for from JR. If the disagreement is with KW on player evaluation, that's a completely different issue.

"Look at what people are spending now for mediocre pitching," Reinsdorf added. "You have to load up. You have to have six can't-miss pitchers for at least two of them to make it. At least two-thirds of these can't-miss pitchers will miss."
Sounds to me like the Sox get it. Can't miss pitchers frequently do. So you load up on them. It also sounds like the Sox aren't really thinking about going with 5 of them, but per the Chairman's own words, 2. Guess what that means, Sox fans: 3 others. Even if you assume McCarthy is one of the "non-prospects", that's 2 vets from the Contreras-Garland-Vazquez-Buehrle contingent. Since only 1 is signed past '08, sounds to me like someone's getting resigned. And if McCarthy's considered a prospect in terms of being an SP, that means 2 guys get re-upped.

Not that the Cubune would think to actually review the comments from the guys in charge, they're too busy hailing the signing of the worst pitcher in the NL last year and creating false panic while coincidentally looking at selling the Cubs....

caulfield12
12-10-2006, 11:36 AM
This might deserve its own thread given the gnashing and wailing going on, but here's some important comments from KW & JR on whitesox.com.



So to everyone complaining about salary reduction, dump, etc - payroll is not an issue. It's KW's sense of what players are worth. It's fair to complain about that if you disagree, but at it's heart, that's a baseball decision, not one coming from ownership, which is really all you can ask for from JR. If the disagreement is with KW on player evaluation, that's a completely different issue.


Sounds to me like the Sox get it. Can't miss pitchers frequently do. So you load up on them. It also sounds like the Sox aren't really thinking about going with 5 of them, but per the Chairman's own words, 2. Guess what that means, Sox fans: 3 others. Even if you assume McCarthy is one of the "non-prospects", that's 2 vets from the Contreras-Garland-Vazquez-Buehrle contingent. Since only 1 is signed past '08, sounds to me like someone's getting resigned. And if McCarthy's considered a prospect in terms of being an SP, that means 2 guys get re-upped.

Not that the Cubune would think to actually review the comments from the guys in charge, they're too busy hailing the signing of the worst pitcher in the NL last year and creating false panic while coincidentally looking at selling the Cubs....


Simple math...
Garland
Vazquez (through 2008, possibly)
Jose
McCarthy

If the one in two ratio works, we have Floyd, Gio, Broadway, McCullough and Haeger (who's not exactly can't miss).

Even if we replace Javier after next season, the odds are not entirely against us, and that's a worst-case scenario of losing both Buehrle and Vazquez and getting nothing in return in terms of MORE young pitching.

palehozenychicty
12-10-2006, 11:41 AM
I really do think that people are overreacting a bit. This really isn't the Kids Can Play, redux.

Seriously, the product on the field for next year has not suffered. We have just as good a shot next year as we did this past year, and hopefully we'll have a better shot because our pitchers will pitch to their capabilities. If even one of our starting pitchers pitches to their career norms (cough, Buehrle), there's a very good chance we would have won the division.

I think McCarthy is going to do just as well as Garcia did. The offense is going to improve because hopefully Anderson will develop a little, and Pods will do a little better by going back to his basics, like bunting to keep the defense off balance. Uribe can do a lot better than he did last year also.

If anything, this makes our 2007 team a little better because we now have another possible RHP out of the pen. Now we have to get a good LH reliever, and I think that the Sox are set for 2007.

Fast forward to 2008. Now the Sox have one (or two) starter possibilities that they didn't have before in Gio and Floyd. It's up to coop to work on Floyd, but with prospects (or any player, for that matter), there's always a risk. If Garcia were to stay, the Sox wouldn't have been able to re-sign him given the market.

Pitching won the Sox a World Series in 2005. The offense wasn't even close to being the top in the league. KW wants to sustain the Sox with good pitching for both the present and the future.

The more I think about it, maybe KW did get the best deal he was going to find. The Sox got rid of the commodity they have in excess in an extra SP, and recieved a commodity they sorely lack: viable SP prospects. I'm getting happier and happier with the move. I see it as the Sox moving further and further towards the Twins' model, except that they have a 100M+ payroll. Sure, this trade won't pay its dividends now, but it's not like the Sox just traded their chance at winning it all in 07 away. They just gave themselves a better chance to do it in 08 and beyond as well.

And seriously, people. Do you really think Kenny is done dealing? He just saved 10 million, and you'd better believe that 10 million is going to go to something, whether it be extensions or FA signings (or both).

This team is one LH reliever and MAYBE a RH reliever away from being a powerhouse. Again.

Pods
Igoo
Dye
Thome
PK
AJ
Crede
Uribe
Anderson

Mack
Gload
Ozuna
Cintron
Stewart

Buehrle
Garland
Contreras
Vazquez
McCarthy


Floyd/Tracey/Haeger/FAsigning
Aardsma
Insert LHP Here
Thornton
MacDougal
Jenks

That looks like a fine team that could be a GREAT team, with those two slots adequately filled.

champagne030
12-10-2006, 12:10 PM
See Garland, Jon for further reinforcement of this point, both highly-touted #1 draft picks.

Floyd couldn't carry Jon's jock as a prospect at this point. They might have been high number 1 picks, but that's where all similarities end. Floyd has split the last two seasons between MLB and MiLB and has been crushed at both levels. Jon got beat around his first season in Chicago after excelling at AAA. The next season he again excelled in Charlotte before coming to Chicago for good. Gavin hasn't excelled anywhere since AA in 2004. He's actually never shown that he can get out AAA hitters. He had 23 starts at AAA during 2005 and posted an ERA of 6+. :o: Jon never posted an ERA above 2.75 in AAA.

maurice
12-11-2006, 02:14 PM
Garland AAA: 2.37 ERA
Garland AA: 3.80 ERA
Garland A: 4.26 ERA

McCarthy AAA: 3.92 ERA
McCarthy AA: 3.46 ERA
McCarthy A: 3.08 ERA

Floyd AAA: 5.24 ERA
Floyd AA: 2.57 ERA
Floyd A: 2.87 ERA