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View Full Version : The reason why a lot of us are panicking with these trades..


tony1972
12-07-2006, 11:47 AM
Reading some of the posts to the Garcia Trade I agree that both sides have good points..

(1) I think it is important to always have young talent on your team so your team is good for the near future and beyond - so I kind of agree with what Kenny is going..

but (2) you still have to contend for the here and now..don't just keep planning for three years down the road..Pittsburgh, Milwaukee, Cincinatti have been planning for three years down the road for the past two decades now..

It we want to dump a little salary in order to keep some of our players who will soon be free agents (Crede, Jemaine, etc)..I am all for that..but please..please don't go nuts about it..give us some reason to go to the games in 2007 and 2008..

Some of us are overreacting for good reason..Reinsdorf has done some things that just don't make us trust things like this happening completely..it's like if your wife cheats on you once or twice..she can change...but you will overeact in the future because of what she had done in the past.

I think a lot of this hysteria is normal because of what we have seen before..BUT I do think the years of empty seats will prevent that from happening againg (1997)..

russ99
12-07-2006, 11:54 AM
Reading some of the posts to the Garcia Trade I agree that both sides have good points..

(1) I think it is important to always have young talent on your team so your team is good for the near future and beyond - so I kind of agree with what Kenny is going..

but (2) you still have to contend for the here and now..don't just keep planning for three years down the road..Pittsburgh, Milwaukee, Cincinatti have been planning for three years down the road for the past two decades now..

It we want to dump a little salary in order to keep some of our players who will soon be free agents (Crede, Jemaine, etc)..I am all for that..but please..please don't go nuts about it..give us some reason to go to the games in 2007 and 2008..

Some of us are overreacting for good reason..Reinsdorf has done some things that just don't make us trust things like this happening completely..it's like if your wife cheats on you once or twice..she can change...but you will overeact in the future because of what she had done in the past.

I think a lot of this hysteria is normal because of what we have seen before..BUT I do think the years of empty seats will prevent that from happening againg (1997)..

I certainly hope so, but a year after Reinsdorf raised the payroll over 100M due to high attendence and a World Series title, there has to be some truth to the possibility of lowering payroll for '07 due to last season's disappointing finish. I think that's why most of us are skeptical that the Sox will use the payroll savings from the Garcia deal and potential future trades to acquire solid players.

I also think there's something to be said about the double-whammy of the Sox possibly cutting payroll at the same time the Cubs are spending like there's no tomorrow. Sure it's better for the South Side franchise and could be disaster for our neighbors to the north, but it's tough to justify to the fanbase.

Nellie_Fox
12-07-2006, 11:54 AM
...it's like if your wife cheats on you once or twice..she can change...Yeah, she can change...addresses.

tony1972
12-07-2006, 11:57 AM
Think about this..

Do you really think after seeing a packed park for the last two years KW and Jerry really want to return to the days of 15,000 in the stands..it would not be in their best interests to do a 1997 White Flag type firesale again..they KNOW what would happen..

I think they are trying to free up money in order to keep Crede and Dye around and just go with younger pitching (although Reinsdorf doesn't usually spend - he will and has in the past for hitters..it's pitchers he doesn't like to sign long term...)...

Mickster
12-07-2006, 11:59 AM
Yeah, she can change...addresses.

:thumbsup:

spiffie
12-07-2006, 12:02 PM
Think about this..

Do you really think after seeing a packed park for the last two years KW and Jerry really want to return to the days of 15,000 in the stands..it would not be in their best interests to do a 1997 White Flag type firesale again..they KNOW what would happen.
It is very possible that with all the different forms of revenue sharing and such that the Sox draw money from that a crappy team that costs $60 million and draws 1.5 million people might be more profitable than a $105 million payroll with 3 million fans.

WhiteSox5187
12-07-2006, 12:03 PM
I totally agree. The moves that KW are making might very well be some of the best he's made, we might look back on them later this year and go "Good job KW!" But as I've mentioned in previous threads, Reisendorf has a history of dumping salary and breaking up great teams. So we do sort of freak out about it. And also it's important to remember that he doesn't really care if his fan base is pissed off at him. Or if there are lot of empty seats.

Lip Man 1
12-07-2006, 12:04 PM
Tony:

I agree with your thinking but again I can only tell you what has happened in the past, a number of disasterous moves, both on and off the field, that caused only 15 thousand fans to be in those seats in the first place.

Anything can happen for any reason you care to choose.

I hope the Sox know what they are doing but I'm not 100% convinced that they do. There may be forces at work here that we know nothing about and it simply may revolve around the bottom line or perhaps positioning the team to be sold in the future. Remember Reinsdorf is 72 now.

Lip

ondafarm
12-07-2006, 12:04 PM
I don't know why anybody is panicking about this trade. The Sox got a very good pitcher who needed a change of scenery and may be a year away from being solid in the rotation but in Coop thinks he's worth getting, I trust his judgement. Gavin was drafted #4 so he has obvious talent. The Sox will almost certainly have him in the rotation and Coop will tutor him like Garland: good fastball, great curve (as opposed to slider) and a solid sinker. As for Garcia, he has always been a bit of a headcase. Could win big games but would consistently blow games against weaker teams he should mow down. And he couldn't keep my mother from stealing second base. Getting Gio back, the next Neal Cotts, sounds like a nice addition.

Iwritecode
12-07-2006, 12:08 PM
I certainly hope so, but a year after Reinsdorf raised the payroll over 100M due to high attendence and a World Series title, there has to be some truth to the possibility of lowering payroll for '07 due to last season's disappointing finish.

Correct me if I'm wrong but wasn't last year's attendance even higher than 2005?

They have money to spend...

Mickster
12-07-2006, 12:13 PM
The Sox got a very good pitcher who needed a change of scenery and may be a year away from being solid in the rotation but in Coop thinks he's worth getting, I trust his judgement.

Coop didn't have a judgment on Floyd. He has spoken to KW a few years ago about him and found out about the deal last night while his wife was watching the news. I still believe he will be flipped to another team.

Lip Man 1
12-07-2006, 12:17 PM
Onda:

Just me but given the nature of the market and everything we've been getting crammed down our throats the past week over how much 'good pitching is valued'... this is the best the Sox could get for him?

A failed first round draft pick and a kid who may or may not eventually make it?

The Sox couldn't have gotten say a bone fide relief pitcher helping to close what Ozzie himself said on Comcast Sports Net to Luke Stuckmeyer, was the biggest weakness in the club?

Or is Gavin Floyd now going to be sent to the bullpen?

Lip

roylestillman
12-07-2006, 12:31 PM
I certainly hope so, but a year after Reinsdorf raised the payroll over 100M due to high attendence and a World Series title, there has to be some truth to the possibility of lowering payroll for '07 due to last season's disappointing finish. I think that's why most of us are skeptical that the Sox will use the payroll savings from the Garcia deal and potential future trades to acquire solid players.

I also think there's something to be said about the double-whammy of the Sox possibly cutting payroll at the same time the Cubs are spending like there's no tomorrow. Sure it's better for the South Side franchise and could be disaster for our neighbors to the north, but it's tough to justify to the fanbase.

But doesn't a 97% season ticket renewal at increased prices mean we can still afford the $100 million payroll? If we use the savings for some other deals then I am off the ledge.

SouthSide_HitMen
12-07-2006, 12:34 PM
It is very possible that with all the different forms of revenue sharing and such that the Sox draw money from that a crappy team that costs $60 million and draws 1.5 million people might be more profitable than a $105 million payroll with 3 million fans.

How many more years do you think Jerry (in his early 70s) will operate / own this team?

Logic dictates he will try to maximize the value of his team before he sells the team. I don't think he wants to return to the late 1990s as far as this franchise goes. The value of the team increased significantly after the World Series and he would not threaten that for a few million in cash today.

We need to wait until April until Forbes issues their financial report for MLB (team income and net worth) but I am certain the club remained very profitable despite the increase in payroll.

fquaye149
12-07-2006, 12:39 PM
Onda:

Just me but given the nature of the market and everything we've been getting crammed down our throats the past week over how much 'good pitching is valued'... this is the best the Sox could get for him?

A failed first round draft pick and a kid who may or may not eventually make it?

The Sox couldn't have gotten say a bone fide relief pitcher helping to close what Ozzie himself said on Comcast Sports Net to Luke Stuckmeyer, was the biggest weakness in the club?

Or is Gavin Floyd now going to be sent to the bullpen?

Lip


Compare this trade to the Pierzinski for Liriano, Nathan, and Bonser trade.

I'm not saying that either of these pitchers will be the equal of any of those Twins, nor am I saying that the trade is anywhere near as smart a trade as the Twins trade (it isn't).

What I'm saying is when you're trading someone you HAVE to trade, someone whose value isn't that high (free agent prices don't really correlate to giving up talent these days) you are most likely left to decide between trading a middle of the pack starter (which Garcia was last year and which he projects to be with his lost velocity) who's a one year rental for a mediocre middle reliever and bupkus else. Or you can trade for prospects with a huge upside.

I really don't think there was much sure things available by way of mlb proven talent for Garcia, so Kenny tried to do what Terry Ryan did with AJ---trade for great talent, one of which may be mlb ready this year....

now he didn't do nearly as well as Ryan, nor did he do all that well period...but it's not like this is a rebuilding trade. What it boils down to is when you're trading someone who is superfluous, whatever you get is gravy. I think Gonzalez, and perhaps even Floyd, makes pretty good gravy.

Lip Man 1
12-07-2006, 12:39 PM
Southside:

I agree with your statement. I think this franchise has made a great deal of money for the investors in the past few seasons.

Lip

soxtalker
12-07-2006, 12:49 PM
I don't think that it is surprising that there is panic here. I've noticed for years that there's a pretty strong bias on WSI in favor of experienced players and against prospects. Part of that is due to a series of prospects in the 90's and early this decade that did not pan out but were highly touted. Also, it is just hard to get a track record on prospects on which a fan can base evaluations.

KW has generally been pretty good at his lower-profile acquistions, and these usually involve evaluation of lesser-known players in the systems of other teams. So, the chances are that he's getting some good value in return. But that probably won't console anyone who wants to see a Carl Crawford or similar player come to us in a trade

SouthSide_HitMen
12-07-2006, 01:01 PM
Southside:

I agree with your statement. I think this franchise has made a great deal of money for the investors in the past few seasons.

Lip


My point was more geared toward the actual value of the team (i.e. what it will fetch on an open market).

Obviously you want the club to make money year to year but the value of the franchise has grown by over $100 million over the past few years, something Reinsdorf is too shrewd to threaten over a few million dollars extra "profit" today (by going cheap with ticket sales already locked up for next year).

Per (http://www.businessofbaseball.com/data/MLBRevProf.xls) Forbes:

Chicago White Sox

2000: Operating Income $17.8 million, Net Worth $213 million
2001: Operating Loss $3.8 million, Net Worth $223 million
2002: Operating Income $1.2 million, Net Worth $233 million
2003: Operating Income $12.8 million, Net Worth $248 million
2004: Operating Income $8.1 million, Net Worth $262 million

During these four seasons, the net worth of the club (as estimated by Forbes) merely kept pace with inflation. The Operating Income was the key factor in these seasons.

Here is the key change in the financial fortunes of the club:

2005 (http://www.forbes.com/lists/2006/33/Rank_1.html): Operating Income $21.8 million, Net Worth $315 million

Operating income was excellent with the World Series title though it was similar to 2000 for their division championship (inflation adjusted). The club made $11.7 million in 1999 proving a division championship + is not necessary to bring in profits over $10 million.

The net worth increased 20% ($53 million) with the World Series championship based on expectations for future increases in income / fan interest subsequent to the World Series.

Reinsdorf will not intentionally piss away the goodwill of this franchise to earn several extra million dollars in the here and now, IMO.

Plus, operating income is taxed at the highest rates while long term capital gains are taxed at low rates (will, at least under current tax law which can change with the new Congress). The best way to maximize value in the team is to boast its long term value. Present income is important but not as important as keeping the future purchase price as high as possible.

I expect 2006 reported income (in Forbes) to be in the $10 million plus range and the value of the franchise to have increased five or so % points above inflation when the estimated reports are announced next March based on the large increase in the season ticket base and expected improvement in media income (TV and radio).

Flight #24
12-07-2006, 01:26 PM
There is no why Reinsdorf is going to intentionally piss away the goodwill of this franchise to earn several extra million dollars in the here and now, IMO.

Plus, operating income is taxed at the highest rates while long term capital gains are taxed at low rates (will, at least under current tax law which can change with the new Congress). The best way to maximize value in the team is to boast its long term value. Present income is important but not as important as keeping the future purchase price as high as possible.


This is an important point to all the chicken littles. The sky may be falling because Kenny is making bad deals, but there's little to no indication that payroll is being cut. Fret all you want about the baseball decisions, but not the owner.

cheezheadsoxfan
12-07-2006, 01:36 PM
My first response, like many of you, was "Freddy Garacia for who?". I thought of the 4th game of the WS, the almost no-hitter, etc.

Then I thought of lost velocity, base runners going at will, Freddie rolling his eyes and the body language when someone made an error behind him and the need to get McCarthy in the rotation and now I'm just fine.

ondafarm
12-07-2006, 01:39 PM
Onda:

Just me but given the nature of the market and everything we've been getting crammed down our throats the past week over how much 'good pitching is valued'... this is the best the Sox could get for him?

A failed first round draft pick and a kid who may or may not eventually make it?

The Sox couldn't have gotten say a bone fide relief pitcher helping to close what Ozzie himself said on Comcast Sports Net to Luke Stuckmeyer, was the biggest weakness in the club?

Or is Gavin Floyd now going to be sent to the bullpen?

Lip

Lip,
I don't see Floyd as a failed first round draft pick. He obviously can pitch in the majors but needs to work with a smart pitching coach. I think he will significantly strengthen the pen this year and probably move into the rotation next year (2008.) Gio will take Neal Cotts' role in 2008.

Garcia may be a big game pitcher but he blew a lot of the small games and his inability to hold anybody faster than my grandmother from stealing second base actually hurt the Sox alot.

CPditka
12-07-2006, 01:43 PM
Reading some of the posts to the Garcia Trade I agree that both sides have good points..

(1) I think it is important to always have young talent on your team so your team is good for the near future and beyond - so I kind of agree with what Kenny is going..

but (2) you still have to contend for the here and now..don't just keep planning for three years down the road..Pittsburgh, Milwaukee, Cincinatti have been planning for three years down the road for the past two decades now..

It we want to dump a little salary in order to keep some of our players who will soon be free agents (Crede, Jemaine, etc)..I am all for that..but please..please don't go nuts about it..give us some reason to go to the games in 2007 and 2008..

Some of us are overreacting for good reason..Reinsdorf has done some things that just don't make us trust things like this happening completely..it's like if your wife cheats on you once or twice..she can change...but you will overeact in the future because of what she had done in the past.

I think a lot of this hysteria is normal because of what we have seen before..BUT I do think the years of empty seats will prevent that from happening againg (1997)..

We need to dump salary in order to retain Dye and Crede. That doesn't make any sense. Garcia and Buehrle are free agents anyway after the year and automatically off the books. What is the difference in clearing Garcia's 10 Mil from the books before or after the 07 season when u are talking about signing players for the 08 year and beyond.

Ol' No. 2
12-07-2006, 01:47 PM
Lip,
I don't see Floyd as a failed first round draft pick. He obviously can pitch in the majors but needs to work with a smart pitching coach. I think he will significantly strengthen the pen this year and probably move into the rotation next year (2008.) Gio will take Neal Cotts' role in 2008.

Garcia may be a big game pitcher but he blew a lot of the small games and his inability to hold anybody faster than my grandmother from stealing second base actually hurt the Sox alot.The key here is that most people (me included) think Kenny could have and should have gotten more in return. Whatever payroll room he gets by trading Freddy, he'd have gotten the same if he's gotten good prospects.

I wouldn't call Floyd a bust yet, but his value has certainly dropped a lot from last year. How can it be obvious he can pitch in the major leagues when he's never been successful there? He might ultimately be successful, but being a high draft pick is no guarantee and right now I don't see how one can even say it's likely.

Lip Man 1
12-07-2006, 01:50 PM
As No. 2 surmised earlier in this thread, with all the additional revenue spread out to all MLB teams why is it that for whatever reason or reasons, the Sox feel they can't handle or deal with the changing markets but most of the other teams apparently feel they can?

The Kansas City Royals just inked Gil Mesch (sorry about the spelling) to a FIVE year deal. There's something out of whack when the K.C. Royals feel they can spend this kind of money yet the much larger market Chicago White Sox feel they can't.

There's more going on to this then meets the eye in my opinion.

Lip

UserNameBlank
12-07-2006, 01:50 PM
I don't get the cheating wife analogy. Being a diehard fan is something that never goes away. Breaking up with a woman is hard; breaking up with the Sox is impossible IMO.

UserNameBlank
12-07-2006, 01:54 PM
As No. 2 surmised earlier in this thread, with all the additional revenue spread out to all MLB teams why is it that for whatever reason or reasons, the Sox feel they can't handle or deal with the changing markets but most of the other teams apparently feel they can?

The Kansas City Royals just inked Gil Mesch (sorry about the spelling) to a FIVE year deal. There's something out of whack when the K.C. Royals feel they can spend this kind of money yet the much larger market Chicago White Sox feel they can't.

There's more going on to this then meets the eye in my opinion.

Lip

Or maybe KW is going to extend Mark, keep Jon and Jose, and trade possibly Javy and Crede for young pitching. If the Sox came out of this whole thing with a rotation of Contreras-Buehrle-Garland-McCarthy-Floyd/Heager/Pelfrey/E. Santana, a dominant bullpen, and an OF of say Pods-Baldelli-Dye, KW would have taken major steps in fulfilling some of my deepest playstation fantasies.

Edit: I'm not a Heager fan, but I'll take him and an extension to Dye over Meche and some cheap corner OF anyday of the week.

Ol' No. 2
12-07-2006, 01:54 PM
As No. 2 surmised earlier in this thread, with all the additional revenue spread out to all MLB teams why is it that for whatever reason or reasons, the Sox feel they can't handle or deal with the changing markets but most of the other teams apparently feel they can?

The Kansas City Royals just inked Gil Mesch (sorry about the spelling) to a FIVE year deal. There's something out of whack when the K.C. Royals feel they can spend this kind of money yet the much larger market Chicago White Sox feel they can't.

There's more going on to this then meets the eye in my opinion.

LipThis deal has nothing to do with cutting payroll. Nothing. A starter was going to make room for McCarthy. It's been in the cards all year.

The Cubune writers and other mediots are just doing what they always do.

IowaSox1971
12-07-2006, 01:57 PM
With the price teams are now paying for pitching (such as the Cubs giving Lilly $40 million over four years and the Mets giving El Duque $12 million over two years), we didn't get enough in return for a guy who went 17-9 last season and is a proven big-game pitcher. We should have at least gotten Rowand included in the deal with the two young pitchers. We gave up our bargaining chip, and we basically didn't fill any needs for next season.

MRM
12-07-2006, 02:02 PM
Or is Gavin Floyd now going to be sent to the bullpen?

Nope. According to Kenny he's going to compete with McCarthy for a starting spot. How much sense does THAT make? The main reason for trading a starter was to get Brandon into the lineup, now he has to compete with a 1st round bust for the job?

Either Kenny is going to trade another starter, likely Mark, and start both of the kids or this deal makes no sense at all. Surely they could have filled actual needs by trading Freddie rather than settle for a reclaimation project and a kid with possible emotional issues who was transferred out of one high school and kicked off another high school team.

Lip Man 1
12-07-2006, 02:06 PM
No.2:

That's not my point. I agreed with your earlier comment that's why I'm still asking the question...regardless of whether you think it's right or not, other teams are 'adapting' to the new reality of the market place. The Sox seem to refuse to.

Why?

Especially with as you also pointed out all the additional money coming in and also as you pointed out the fact that good pitching at a fair price is at a premium yet look at who the Sox got for Garcia.

My comment has nothing to do with the media.

Lip

fquaye149
12-07-2006, 02:08 PM
This deal has nothing to do with cutting payroll. Nothing. A starter was going to make room for McCarthy. It's been in the cards all year.

The Cubune writers and other mediots are just doing what they always do.

Freeing up 10 million did have something to do with this (and you'll probably see that as Kenny continues to pursue high profile trades and to a lesser extent FA's. But you're right---it mostly had to do with clearing room for McCarthy

fquaye149
12-07-2006, 02:12 PM
No.2:

That's not my point. I agreed with your earlier comment that's why I'm still asking the question...regardless of whether you think it's right or not, other teams are 'adapting' to the new reality of the market place. The Sox seem to refuse to.

Why?

Especially with as you also pointed out all the additional money coming in and also as you pointed out the fact that good pitching at a fair price is at a premium yet look at who the Sox got for Garcia.

My comment has nothing to do with the media.

Lip

The "new reality" as you describe it only applies to a few teams

Most of those new teams are just plain overspending for FA's for the sake of overspending and not getting much w/l return (Baltimore, Los Angeles, Toronto, Cubs) etc. The teams that are successful, are successful either because they are spending exponentially more than other teams (Boston, Mets, Yankees) or because they have a stacked system and are paying to retain their talent and fortify what they already have (St. Louis, Atlanta---these two teams also happen to have two of the best GM's in the game).

A lot of the success comes from the sort of approach Kenny is taking, the "denial" of your so-called "new reality"---Detroit, Florida, Arizona, Minnesota, Cleveland, Oakland (yes Oakland) and the Sox all field a team by finding relative bargains in the market place and refusing to overpay for mediocre talent.

Given the fact that we don't have a Pujols or a Chipper Jones/Andruw Jones/ John Smoltz makeup (i.e. no superstars we can supplant with spending) and that we ARE NOT GOING TO SPEND 200 MILLION NOR SHOULD WE, it seems like me that the smart thing to do IS to "ignore" the "new reality" of free agency.

Ol' No. 2
12-07-2006, 02:14 PM
Freeing up 10 million did have something to do with this (and you'll probably see that as Kenny continues to pursue high profile trades and to a lesser extent FA's. But you're right---it mostly had to do with clearing room for McCarthyYou can't completely separate the two. Replacing Garcia with McCarthy had two purposes: 1) get some youth in the roster, and 2) free up money for other uses. That's not the same thing as "salary dump" which is the way it's being portrayed by a lot of people. And it's not the same situation as two years ago when the Sox had lots of holes to fill and needed to free up significant money to do it. I don't see Kenny spending that money on FA acquisitions the way he did then. Maybe he's got some big deal in the works where he needs that money, but right now I just don't see what that could be.

Gavin
12-07-2006, 02:15 PM
Who the hell wants to go to MLB games to watch "young talent" get whooped for a few years in a row? Here and now or nothing at all... these tickets aren't cheap.

Ol' No. 2
12-07-2006, 02:20 PM
No.2:

That's not my point. I agreed with your earlier comment that's why I'm still asking the question...regardless of whether you think it's right or not, other teams are 'adapting' to the new reality of the market place. The Sox seem to refuse to.

Why?

Especially with as you also pointed out all the additional money coming in and also as you pointed out the fact that good pitching at a fair price is at a premium yet look at who the Sox got for Garcia.

My comment has nothing to do with the media.

LipHow, exactly, do you adapt to the new reality?

1. Spend ridiculous sums of money on mediocre talent, then complain a few years later that your payroll is too high.

2. Bring in some young players who can offset the large salaries you're going to have to pay to retain those of your own players you want to keep and a few FA players you can get for reasonable prices.

I'll take door #2.

I agree that it doesn't look like the Sox got fair value in return for Freddy Garcia. I don't agree that this marks a return to Cheap and Stupid.

ondafarm
12-07-2006, 02:22 PM
. . . How can it be obvious he can pitch in the major leagues when he's never been successful there? He might ultimately be successful, but being a high draft pick is no guarantee and right now I don't see how one can even say it's likely.


Why is it obvious he can pitch in the majors? Take a look at his splits.

http://philadelphia.phillies.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/team/player.jsp?player_id=425856

(meanwhile does anybody know how to just put a Link type instead of putting the whole address in there?) I digress.

His splits are wildly divergent. ERA on grass 3.70, on turf 2.25. vs Left .289 vs Right .203, etc.

There are two scenerios that explain this. First, he's got something deadly for one or the other which doesn't work elsewhere. As in a wicked sidearm delivery or something like that (his curve ball might affect part of that.) Second scenerio is that he's got good stuff and doesn't always know how to throw it. Certainly he hasn't mastered getting through an outing without his best stuff.

He has pitched very acceptably on several occasions and it looks like mostly on turf and against righties, but a few lefty heavy teams playing on grass have shelled him.

My conclusion: he can pitch in the majors, but needs to work on being a major league pitcher.

Lip Man 1
12-07-2006, 02:28 PM
No.2:

I guess we'll have to wait and see. What I do know is that right now the Sox still have holes to fill... particularly in the bullpen, a competent 4th outfielder and a back up catcher.

We'll see if Kenny's turns that money saved into substancial overall team upgrades like before the 2005 season.

I hope so.

Lip

rowand33
12-07-2006, 02:32 PM
a couple of years ago, I think that most poeple would have seen this trade as good. a starter in his contract year for a few young arms with talent. great.

but we've built what is supposed to be a contender. the Sox were supposed to be awesome last year. we talked of a dynasty. that this was the time of the White Sox.

And then we made a trade yesterday that's more in line with what a team like the Marlins would do.

this trade might help us win a few years down the line, but the reason for backlash is because it does NOTHING to help us win in 2007. nothing.

I know that personally, I was expecting viable pieces for Garcia. I had hoped for a new leadoff man. When I thought Phillies, I didn't think Floyd, I thought Rollins. Hell, at least Rowand!

And we got a player we gave them and a guy that's been getting shelled in the NL...

awesome.

And then there's the whole deal that we wanted to do with Houston that didn't get done. The Garland for Taveras and Buchholz deal. Buchholz is awful. Taveras is like a younger Pods. Fast, plays a ****ty center, light hitting.

I don't think I've really questioned a move that Kenny has made in recent years. certainly not since 2003. But honestly, I dunno what the hell he's thinking. It didn't work in 2006 so we shuold just dismantle a pitching staff that dominated in 2005 and helped us win the world series?!

We're not in a rebuilding period. We're contending now. I really hope that this deal is part of something bigger. either using the players we got to get a player like Baldelli or using the money to acquire something

fquaye149
12-07-2006, 02:42 PM
a couple of years ago, I think that most poeple would have seen this trade as good. a starter in his contract year for a few young arms with talent. great.

but we've built what is supposed to be a contender. the Sox were supposed to be awesome last year. we talked of a dynasty. that this was the time of the White Sox.

And then we made a trade yesterday that's more in line with what a team like the Marlins would do.

this trade might help us win a few years down the line, but the reason for backlash is because it does NOTHING to help us win in 2007. nothing.

I know that personally, I was expecting viable pieces for Garcia. I had hoped for a new leadoff man. When I thought Phillies, I didn't think Floyd, I thought Rollins. Hell, at least Rowand!

And we got a player we gave them and a guy that's been getting shelled in the NL...

awesome.

And then there's the whole deal that we wanted to do with Houston that didn't get done. The Garland for Taveras and Buchholz deal. Buchholz is awful. Taveras is like a younger Pods. Fast, plays a ****ty center, light hitting.

I don't think I've really questioned a move that Kenny has made in recent years. certainly not since 2003. But honestly, I dunno what the hell he's thinking. It didn't work in 2006 so we shuold just dismantle a pitching staff that dominated in 2005 and helped us win the world series?!

We're not in a rebuilding period. We're contending now. I really hope that this deal is part of something bigger. either using the players we got to get a player like Baldelli or using the money to acquire something

This isn't rebuilding. This is unloading the fat and getting something for the future in return.

Garcia didn't fit into our 2007 plans so we got something in return.

Rebuilding would be trading a player who would be necessary to contend last year for the future.

Ol' No. 2
12-07-2006, 02:42 PM
Why is it obvious he can pitch in the majors? Take a look at his splits.

http://philadelphia.phillies.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/team/player.jsp?player_id=425856

(meanwhile does anybody know how to just put a Link type instead of putting the whole address in there?) I digress.

His splits are wildly divergent. ERA on grass 3.70, on turf 2.25. vs Left .289 vs Right .203, etc.

There are two scenerios that explain this. First, he's got something deadly for one or the other which doesn't work elsewhere. As in a wicked sidearm delivery or something like that (his curve ball might affect part of that.) Second scenerio is that he's got good stuff and doesn't always know how to throw it. Certainly he hasn't mastered getting through an outing without his best stuff.

He has pitched very acceptably on several occasions and it looks like mostly on turf and against righties, but a few lefty heavy teams playing on grass have shelled him.

My conclusion: he can pitch in the majors, but needs to work on being a major league pitcher.I wouldn't call those splits wildly divergent based on the sample sizes. I'd just call it inconsistency. He's obviously got something. It's a matter of whether he'll ever be able to harness it productively. Plenty of high picks never do, and with each passing year it becomes less and less likely.

5+ BB/9
1 K/BB
17.8 P/IP

Sometimes you see young players with some good indicators, but some bad ones that kill them. For example, sometimes they just walk a lot of hitters that gets them into trouble. Floyd's are pretty uniformly bad.

You never know. He might magically turn into a 20-game winner. I just don't like the odds.

spiffie
12-07-2006, 02:47 PM
Why is it obvious he can pitch in the majors? Take a look at his splits.

http://philadelphia.phillies.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/team/player.jsp?player_id=425856

(meanwhile does anybody know how to just put a Link type instead of putting the whole address in there?) I digress.

His splits are wildly divergent. ERA on grass 3.70, on turf 2.25. vs Left .289 vs Right .203, etc.

There are two scenerios that explain this. First, he's got something deadly for one or the other which doesn't work elsewhere. As in a wicked sidearm delivery or something like that (his curve ball might affect part of that.) Second scenerio is that he's got good stuff and doesn't always know how to throw it. Certainly he hasn't mastered getting through an outing without his best stuff.

He has pitched very acceptably on several occasions and it looks like mostly on turf and against righties, but a few lefty heavy teams playing on grass have shelled him.

My conclusion: he can pitch in the majors, but needs to work on being a major league pitcher.
From the reading I did on Floyd last night and this morning it sounds like his curve ball is his plus pitch. It has been described as being much more effective against righties than lefties.

infohawk
12-07-2006, 02:51 PM
I don't know why anybody is panicking about this trade. The Sox got a very good pitcher who needed a change of scenery and may be a year away from being solid in the rotation but in Coop thinks he's worth getting, I trust his judgement. Gavin was drafted #4 so he has obvious talent. The Sox will almost certainly have him in the rotation and Coop will tutor him like Garland: good fastball, great curve (as opposed to slider) and a solid sinker. As for Garcia, he has always been a bit of a headcase. Could win big games but would consistently blow games against weaker teams he should mow down. And he couldn't keep my mother from stealing second base. Getting Gio back, the next Neal Cotts, sounds like a nice addition.
Agreed. First of all, right now the big change in 2007 will be Brandon replacing Freddy in the rotation. That's not a dramatic difference. At worst it's probably a wash, but I think Brandon has more upside. How many of us were ready to run Freddy out of town last year? I know I was. He won 17 games, but also received outstanding run support. His fastball may be gone, it may not, who knows? I know he developed that split-finger pitch, but how much of his late effectiveness was because the pitch was still a surprise? Again, who knows?

The Sox have so far obtained a power arm for the pen in Aardsma while acquiring three potential starting pitchers. Carlos Vazquez, Floyd and Gonzalez. Two of these pitchers could very well break camp with the club in April (Floyd and Gonzalez) and pitch out of the bullpen in middle relief. On balance, right now I think there is reason to believe that the overall 2007 pitching staff will be better than the 2006 staff.

I also like that the Sox now have some options that could emerge as decent starters (Haeger, McCullough, C. Vazquez, Broadway, Gonzalez and Floyd). The more you have, the greater the probability of producing one or two viable starters down the road. Producing one or two cheap starters could also make the difference between having the resources available to extend the contract of a Buerhle, Crede or Dye (or whomever you want really want to keep.)

maurice
12-07-2006, 03:04 PM
KW is not refusing to adapt to the new reality of the market place. This trade demonstrates HOW he's adapting. Most of the recent contracts are ridiculous, and KW doesn't think he needs to play that game. The teams who are overpaying will handcuff themselves in other areas, since payroll usually is a zero sum game.

KW has cited the Atlanta model as an inspiration for how to compete annually . . . cycle in young, talented players to free up money for other needs. The opposite approach (Baltimore, Texas, etc.) has been disastrous. Heck, even the Yankees are having a hard time getting the job done with a payroll that is 2-4 times higher than most other teams.

Could KW have gotten more for Garcia? That's subjective. He certainly was offered other packages. This is the one he chose and he didn't chose to wait for a better deal, so obviously HE thinks that he could NOT have gotten more. Obviously, KW is high on a very talented, young pitcher and has a ton of faith in Coop. Floyd probably will get a spot in the pen in '07 and then compete for a rotation spot in '08. (Multiple pitching prospects already in the org will be ready to compete by then.) This has been the plan for a long time. The X-factor is Gio, who has the potential to be a MLB starter in '08 or '09, and who has an excellent chance of being an effective MLB reliever in '07 or '08.

Even if they both amount to nothing, KW thinks that McCarthy will equal or outperform Garcia in '07, freeing up millions to spend on contract extensions and other needs. Since the Sox weren't going to stick either of these guys in the BP in '07, one of them had to go. It makes since to get rid of the more expensive player who is on the downside of his career. Even Garcia saw the writing on the wall months ago.

Lip Man 1
12-07-2006, 03:08 PM
Maurice says: "freeing up millions to spend on contract extensions and other needs."

Assuming in fact this does happen then I agree for the most part with your comment. The question hanging over everyone right now is 'will they?'

We'll see.

Lip

Iwritecode
12-07-2006, 03:18 PM
http://philadelphia.phillies.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/team/player.jsp?player_id=425856

(meanwhile does anybody know how to just put a Link type instead of putting the whole address in there?) I digress.


An easy way is to type a word, highlight it and then it the link button and it will do it automatically for you.

Or just quote this post and look below if you want to type it manually.

test (http://www.flyingsock.com)

johnr1note
12-07-2006, 03:22 PM
I also like that the Sox now have some options that could emerge as decent starters (Haeger, McCullough, C. Vazquez, Broadway, Gonzalez and Floyd). The more you have, the greater the probability of producing one or two viable starters down the road. Producing one or two cheap starters could also make the difference between having the resources available to extend the contract of a Buerhle, Crede or Dye (or whomever you want really want to keep.)

The other thing that hasn't been discussed a lot is the concept of packaging a few of these young arms to a team in the "development" stage (e.g., Tampa Bay, Florida, Washington) for more well established bullpen help or to find that established outfielder, catcher, or shortstop everyone is clamoring for. I think that is at least as likely, and probably not add a lot of payroll either.

Just as a reminder, how many of ya'all were all in favor of the Lee for Pods/Vizcaiano deal at the winter meetings 2 years ago. Here is a link to the discussion: http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=42708&page=16&pp=15

I will say this -- while my first reaction to the Pods trade two years ago and this trade are the same -- I don't like it -- KW has proven that he can build a World Series Champion, something that no other Chicago general manager had done for 88 years. Maybe this will turn out to be a disaster, but unlike the Beaner boys in Oakland, Kenny seems to base his decisions on scouting. We have made the failures of other organizations work in the recent past (e.g. Jenks, Thornton) so I will reserve my ire over this trade until we see what shakes out in spring training.

Flight #24
12-07-2006, 03:29 PM
Maurice says: "freeing up millions to spend on contract extensions and other needs."

Assuming in fact this does happen then I agree for the most part with your comment. The question hanging over everyone right now is 'will they?'

We'll see.

Lip

One thing that I could see happening is this: Teams go out and blow their wads early, offering ludicrous dollars to average at best players (Ted Lilly & Gil Meche come to mind). Now, even the big-spending teams are at or near their budgets.

In comes KW in January, and is able to fairly easily beat out a number of teams to sign mid-tier guys (not SPs) to affordable deals with team options. This would include veteran middle relievers, 4th OFs, backup catchers.

Anyone who's participated in a fantasy auction draft has seen this phenomenon. Or anyone who watched Kenny in the 2004-2005 offseason.

HawkDJ
12-07-2006, 03:43 PM
Who the hell wants to go to MLB games to watch "young talent" get whooped for a few years in a row? Here and now or nothing at all... these tickets aren't cheap.

I have a hard time accepting the fact that Ken Williams has now gone the route of looking down the road. This is KW we're talking about. Look at all his major trades since becoming GM. David Wells, Todd Ritchie, Bartolo Colon, Freddy Garcia, Jim Thome. All of these were about giving up young talent to win NOW. Some worked out better than others but the point is KW is willing to take a chance. The idea that he has now gone soft and is looking towards the future seems suspicious to me. If this trade isn't a part of a bigger picture (ala Podsednik for Lee) then I will be completely baffled.

maurice
12-07-2006, 03:50 PM
JR sets the pre-season payroll based on projected revenues. KW has the discretion to spend up to the pre-set amount and has to ask for permission to go over that amount. If, during the season, the pre-season projection for revenues appears to be low, JR will authorize more money.

Again, whether to spend up to the cap is within KW's discretion. He's not going to sign somebody just to max out his payroll. It has to make sense. Plus, he always has the option of holding the $$$ in reserve for a mid-season deal (when it's worth twice as much) or using it for contract extensions. As long as KW gets within a few million of the cap in 2007, then trading Garcia is not a salary dump, because it's a zero sum game.

In any event, the Sox 2007 payroll probably will exceed $100 mil. . . . by how much, I can't say. Cue Henry to post that this represents a payroll "reduction."
:cool:

ondafarm
12-07-2006, 03:54 PM
An easy way is to type a word, highlight it and then it the link button and it will do it automatically for you.

Or just quote this post and look below if you want to type it manually.

test (http://www.flyingsock.com)


Just checking this: Yahoo (http://www.yahoo.com/)

Just call me innocuous (and perhaps banished to the Test Board.)

Thanks, IWC.

kevin57
12-07-2006, 04:17 PM
I don't buy the suggested "planning to succeed in the future" rationale being offered. KW has always said and acted like he plans to win NOW (with future success as a secondary goal).

The only thing I can therefore assume from the Garcia trade is that he honestly believes Garcia is on the declining edge of his career and that what he got as talent (or as bait in a future trade) is better.

maurice
12-07-2006, 04:24 PM
Man, Freddy Garcia was so great. He thanked me for the opportunity to come over and win a World Series. He asked me, if he saw me in a bar, could he sit down and buy a drink for me. By the end of the conversation, he had me apologizing for trading him.

Even if we were to wait on some of the other [free-agent] signings [to lure more teams into the bidding], we'd have been hard-pressed for this particular deal to get any better.

We were the only 90-win team that didn't make the playoffs this year. And we still feel like, if we'd gotten there, we had a hell of a chance. But I've got a responsibility, a responsibility not just for now but for tomorrow. And even if we win in 2007, in Chicago if we spend 2008-09-10 losing 100 games, believe me, you're the village idiot. It doesn't matter what you've done before.

- per Jason Stark (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/hotstove06/columns/story?columnist=stark_jayson&id=2689429)

MRM
12-07-2006, 04:43 PM
I have a hard time accepting the fact that Ken Williams has now gone the route of looking down the road. This is KW we're talking about. Look at all his major trades since becoming GM. David Wells, Todd Ritchie, Bartolo Colon, Freddy Garcia, Jim Thome. All of these were about giving up young talent to win NOW. Some worked out better than others but the point is KW is willing to take a chance. The idea that he has now gone soft and is looking towards the future seems suspicious to me. If this trade isn't a part of a bigger picture (ala Podsednik for Lee) then I will be completely baffled.

I think Kenny is just a little depressed that the market this year has pretty well blown his plans down the road and he has unwisely popped off to the media more than he probably should have (nothing new, there).

Unfortunately he devalues his position of strength with public statements like he's made this week. Why would another GM overpay in the form of a trade if they think Kenny is giving up thus will probably take less? He should be publicly talking up his players and how he wants to re-sign them, etc. IMO that's always been Kennys worst attribute as a GM. He wears his emotions on his sleeve too often. That's fine for a field manager, but not for a GM.

MRM
12-07-2006, 04:50 PM
JR sets the pre-season payroll based on projected revenues. KW has the discretion to spend up to the pre-set amount and has to ask for permission to go over that amount. If, during the season, the pre-season projection for revenues appears to be low, JR will authorize more money.

Again, whether to spend up to the cap is within KW's discretion. He's not going to sign somebody just to max out his payroll. It has to make sense. Plus, he always has the option of holding the $$$ in reserve for a mid-season deal (when it's worth twice as much) or using it for contract extensions. As long as KW gets within a few million of the cap in 2007, then trading Garcia is not a salary dump, because it's a zero sum game.

In any event, the Sox 2007 payroll probably will exceed $100 mil. . . . by how much, I can't say. Cue Henry to post that this represents a payroll "reduction."
:cool:

The Sox payroll and actual team payroll are two different things. Many millions of the actual payroll is being paid by other teams via the Vazquez and Thome deals. I don't recall the total numbers but if they have a $100mil payroll next year, the actual cost to the Sox is closer to $94 mil or so.

Jurr
12-07-2006, 05:03 PM
One thing that I could see happening is this: Teams go out and blow their wads early, offering ludicrous dollars to average at best players (Ted Lilly & Gil Meche come to mind). Now, even the big-spending teams are at or near their budgets.

In comes KW in January, and is able to fairly easily beat out a number of teams to sign mid-tier guys (not SPs) to affordable deals with team options. This would include veteran middle relievers, 4th OFs, backup catchers.

Anyone who's participated in a fantasy auction draft has seen this phenomenon. Or anyone who watched Kenny in the 2004-2005 offseason.
Hermanson was a 'quiet' acquisition that saved the Sox' rear ends in 2005.
Uribe was another mid-level guy that ended up making some of the biggest plays in Sox history (the big out in the Crede walkoff game vs Cleveland, the World Series plays, on and on), and Cintron and Ozuna, two less-celebrated acquisitions, played huge roles last year.

Good GM's make the big moves they actually need to make and fill out the roster with role players that fall in line and step up when needed.
These guys don't always light up message boards with excitement, but they end up being just as vital as the big names.

Has Randy Johnson justified the money the Yankees put into him? Did Dreifort? Did Neagle? Nomar Garciaparra (Cubs edition)?

Did ESPN stop everything when the Sox signed Jermaine Dye?

I like what Kenny is doing. He's letting the other guys go out on a limb and put huge money into players that only fill one of 25 spots on a roster.
Meanwhile, he's not feeling rushed into mortgaging the future of the franchise for one player. Our pitchers will be better rested this year, not having had to labor through the playoffs. Our position players will be a little hungrier this year.

This team is very good as it is, and just needs a little tweak here and there. We're smart enough fans to realize this. Cubs fans need the huge, big money guys to get excited about, just to see those players sit on first base because the talent around them can't get the hits to bring 'em in.

fquaye149
12-07-2006, 05:34 PM
Maurice says: "freeing up millions to spend on contract extensions and other needs."

Assuming in fact this does happen then I agree for the most part with your comment. The question hanging over everyone right now is 'will they?'

We'll see.

Lip

But WHO CARES. The Freddy move was not to free up salary. The salary was an added bonus to the move that had to be make---deal Freddie to open up a spot for a more talented pitcher and get prospects as part of the deal.

The only place where salary was purported to be an issue was whether Rowand came. Some say Rowand was not a throw in because Kenny didn't want to take on the salary. Perhaps, but this is a case, probably, of Kenny not thinking Rowand was worth the money he's being paid, not JR or KW or whoever being too cheap to foot the bill for Rowand.

MRM
12-07-2006, 05:42 PM
But WHO CARES. The Freddy move was not to free up salary. The salary was an added bonus to the move that had to be make---deal Freddie to open up a spot for a more talented pitcher and get prospects as part of the deal.

The only place where salary was purported to be an issue was whether Rowand came. Some say Rowand was not a throw in because Kenny didn't want to take on the salary. Perhaps, but this is a case, probably, of Kenny not thinking Rowand was worth the money he's being paid, not JR or KW or whoever being too cheap to foot the bill for Rowand.

What's the continued facination with Rowand? He's a slightly above average fielder and mediocre hitter who plays wrecklessly, risking injury every time he takes the field. Anderson is a much better fielder with more offensive potential than AAron brings. Overall Rowand is just a very slight improvement over BA IF Brian doesn't improve offensively.

fquaye149
12-07-2006, 05:49 PM
What's the continued facination with Rowand? He's a slightly above average fielder and mediocre hitter who plays wrecklessly, risking injury every time he takes the field. Anderson is a much better fielder with more offensive potential than AAron brings. Overall Rowand is just a very slight improvement over BA IF Brian doesn't improve offensively.

This is an issue that's been beaten to death. Some people are just really attached to Rowand from the championship year and would like to see him back if possible. Others think he's hopelessly inept and that shouldn't be any better than a 4th outfielder.

It's just the way it goes. He was one of the many faces of the 2005 team. It's natural that people would be very fond of him.

jandm859
12-07-2006, 05:50 PM
As No. 2 surmised earlier in this thread, with all the additional revenue spread out to all MLB teams why is it that for whatever reason or reasons, the Sox feel they can't handle or deal with the changing markets but most of the other teams apparently feel they can?

The Kansas City Royals just inked Gil Mesch (sorry about the spelling) to a FIVE year deal. There's something out of whack when the K.C. Royals feel they can spend this kind of money yet the much larger market Chicago White Sox feel they can't.

There's more going on to this then meets the eye in my opinion.

Lip


Yea, there's alot more 10 mil saved by this dump salary deal

Chisox003
12-07-2006, 05:52 PM
As No. 2 surmised earlier in this thread, with all the additional revenue spread out to all MLB teams why is it that for whatever reason or reasons, the Sox feel they can't handle or deal with the changing markets but most of the other teams apparently feel they can?

The Kansas City Royals just inked Gil Mesch (sorry about the spelling) to a FIVE year deal. There's something out of whack when the K.C. Royals feel they can spend this kind of money yet the much larger market Chicago White Sox feel they can't.

There's more going on to this then meets the eye in my opinion.

Lip
I think you're just paranoid. :dunno:

Craig Grebeck
12-07-2006, 06:03 PM
As No. 2 surmised earlier in this thread, with all the additional revenue spread out to all MLB teams why is it that for whatever reason or reasons, the Sox feel they can't handle or deal with the changing markets but most of the other teams apparently feel they can?

The Kansas City Royals just inked Gil Mesch (sorry about the spelling) to a FIVE year deal. There's something out of whack when the K.C. Royals feel they can spend this kind of money yet the much larger market Chicago White Sox feel they can't.

There's more going on to this then meets the eye in my opinion.

Lip
It's called being ahead of the curve and stockpiling young pitchers. There's absolutely no reason to give any of our pitchers long extensions when they are declining and can get promising young pitchers through trades.

rowand33
12-07-2006, 06:15 PM
This isn't rebuilding. This is unloading the fat and getting something for the future in return.

Garcia didn't fit into our 2007 plans so we got something in return.

Rebuilding would be trading a player who would be necessary to contend last year for the future.

yeah, ok, but what was with us wanting to send Garland to Houston also?

That's not unloading fat. That's dismantling a pitching staff that won you the world series in 05.

And I'm shocked that we couldn't have done better for Garcia. Hopefully, a few years from now, we'll be like "man, thank god we have gio and floyd!" but we did nothing that helps us this year. We should be making some kind of move that helps us win the world series in 2007, not 2009.

as I said before, I really hope KW is cooking something else up. because right now we're stuck with Pods as our leadoff man and still have bullpen issues. I had assumed the trading of Garcia would address one of those issues, not bring in young arms.

fquaye149
12-07-2006, 06:18 PM
yeah, ok, but what was with us wanting to send Garland to Houston also?

That's not unloading fat. That's dismantling a pitching staff that won you the world series in 05.

And I'm shocked that we couldn't have done better for Garcia. Hopefully, a few years from now, we'll be like "man, thank god we have gio and floyd!" but we did nothing that helps us this year. We should be making some kind of move that helps us win the world series in 2007, not 2009.

as I said before, I really hope KW is cooking something else up. because right now we're stuck with Pods as our leadoff man and still have bullpen issues. I had assumed the trading of Garcia would address one of those issues, not bring in young arms.

Frankly I have no idea *** is up with the Garland trade...but it didn't happen.

I HOPE what it was was KW ****ing with the other GM's...but I dunno

JB98
12-07-2006, 06:20 PM
yeah, ok, but what was with us wanting to send Garland to Houston also?

That's not unloading fat. That's dismantling a pitching staff that won you the world series in 05.

And I'm shocked that we couldn't have done better for Garcia. Hopefully, a few years from now, we'll be like "man, thank god we have gio and floyd!" but we did nothing that helps us this year. We should be making some kind of move that helps us win the world series in 2007, not 2009.

as I said before, I really hope KW is cooking something else up. because right now we're stuck with Pods as our leadoff man and still have bullpen issues. I had assumed the trading of Garcia would address one of those issues, not bring in young arms.

Exactly. I couldn't have said it better myself.

russ99
12-07-2006, 08:15 PM
Exactly. I couldn't have said it better myself.

Actually, after the intial shock, that Garland trade could have been pretty good. Hirsh can certainly hold down the 5th starter job (he will in Houston, if they don't trade him) and Buchholz could have been a long reliever.

The key to the deal is that Willy Tavarez is just what we need at leadoff & CF. While he's no Carl Crawford, he's got good range, a cannon arm, can hit doubles and triples to the gaps, can beat out infield hits and is a terror on the basepaths. I watch a decent amount of Astros games (my fave NL team) - and strictly IMO - he's poised for a breakout year. I can't believe the Astros would want to deal him. They must be real desperate for established pitching with the potential loss of Pettitte & Clemens. The only caveat is that he's a Boras client.

I would feel much better if Vazquez was the pitcher possibly being traded to Houston, though.

StillMissOzzie
12-08-2006, 02:48 AM
This deal has nothing to do with cutting payroll. Nothing. A starter was going to make room for McCarthy. It's been in the cards all year.

What came first, the chicken or the egg? No matter which SP was offloaded to make room for McCarthy, there were bound to be savings of $10M, give or take a million, compared to McCarthy's $350-400K salary for 2007. Darn those pesky side effects of making room on a roster.


The Kansas City Royals just inked Gil Mesch (sorry about the spelling) to a FIVE year deal. There's something out of whack when the K.C. Royals feel they can spend this kind of money yet the much larger market Chicago White Sox feel they can't.

There's more going on to this then meets the eye in my opinion.

Lip
I hope so, too, Lip.

Freeing up 10 million did have something to do with this (and you'll probably see that as Kenny continues to pursue high profile trades and to a lesser extent FA's. But you're right---it mostly had to do with clearing room for McCarthy

Despite KW's blustering about sending McCarthy to AAA again for 2007, I never believed it and I doubt many other GM's did either. Great minds think alike.
I guess I'd just add, as many others have already, that I will feel better when I see those payroll savings redeployed in retaining someone else the Sox already have, or filling in one of the other holes.

SMO
:gulp:

Grzegorz
12-08-2006, 06:01 AM
The Kansas City Royals just inked Gil Mesch (sorry about the spelling) to a FIVE year deal. There's something out of whack when the K.C. Royals feel they can spend this kind of money yet the much larger market Chicago White Sox feel they can't.
Lip

There is no correlation between spending money and winning the World Series.

There's more going on to this then meets the eye in my opinion.Lip

There sure is a lot going on; teams are grossly overspending for mediocre talent.

wassagstdu
12-08-2006, 08:03 AM
http://mlb.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/stats/sortable_team_stats.jsp?c_id=mlb&baseballScope=AL&statType=2&sitSplit=&timeSubFrame=2006&groupByTeam=true&Submit=Submit&timeFrame=1

Help me. I only looked at the top of that list but I could not find the Sox. Maybe if I turn the list upside down ... The Sox failed last year because the pitching failed. Makes "these trades" less troubling to me. Maybe the whole staff is worth more to others individually than to the Sox collectively.

Hangar18
12-08-2006, 11:45 AM
Tony:

I agree with your thinking but again I can only tell you what has happened in the past, a number of disasterous moves, both on and off the field, that caused only 15 thousand fans to be in those seats in the first place.

Anything can happen for any reason you care to choose.

I hope the Sox know what they are doing but I'm not 100% convinced that they do. There may be forces at work here that we know nothing about and it simply may revolve around the bottom line or perhaps positioning the team to be sold in the future. Remember Reinsdorf is 72 now.

Lip

That is a very interesting theory. (waiting for you-know-who to post "Lip says SOX for sale with the little laughing guy icon here)

Hangar18
12-08-2006, 11:47 AM
There is no correlation between spending money and winning the World Series.

.

hahahahaahhaa, I dont think Jim Hendry got the memo

Hangar18
12-08-2006, 11:51 AM
No.2:

I guess we'll have to wait and see. What I do know is that right now the Sox still have holes to fill... particularly in the bullpen, a competent 4th outfielder and a back up catcher.

We'll see if Kenny's turns that money saved into substancial overall team upgrades like before the 2005 season.

I hope so.

Lip


I was the one who said Buehrle would be the guy not with us for 07, after he signed his extension, knowing full well they would probably get rid of a pitcher .....

caulfield12
12-08-2006, 12:34 PM
Exactly. I couldn't have said it better myself.


Why is everyone overreacting?

KW has multiple kettles in the fire at the same time.

Houston wasn't willing to add Hirsch, deal off.

Houston blinked, and KW went ahead with the Philadelphia deal.

Purpura is trying to save face. I guess it shows how highly-regarded JG is that his name has come up more than any White Sox hurler in recent memory (going back to the Erstad/Singleton deal vetoed by Disney, thanks!), but the White Sox won't deal him this off-season, that much is pretty much guaranteed now.

Lip Man 1
12-08-2006, 01:50 PM
Gregz:

You are right there is no correlation between spending money and WINNING a World Series.

But there is a TON of correlation between spending money and GETTING to the post season isn't there?

Care to review the number of times the 'high payroll' clubs like oh the Yankees, Braves, Cardinals, Astros, Red Sox, Mariners and so forth have been in the post season the last five, ten, fifteen years as compared to the bottom feeders? (I don't see the names of Kansas City, Milwaukee, Pittsbugh, Cincinnati and so forth to often, do you?)

Lip

Flight #24
12-08-2006, 02:24 PM
Gregz:

You are right there is no correlation between spending money and WINNING a World Series.

But there is a TON of correlation between spending money and GETTING to the post season isn't there?

Care to review the number of times the 'high payroll' clubs like oh the Yankees, Braves, Cardinals, Astros, Red Sox, Mariners and so forth have been in the post season the last five, ten, fifteen years as compared to the bottom feeders? (I don't see the names of Kansas City, Milwaukee, Pittsbugh, Cincinnati and so forth to often, do you?)

Lip
That doesn't mean being at the top of the payroll ladder guarantees you a spot, it means being at the bottom knocks you out. The Sox are in no danger of being one of the bottom teams, they're in the middle or upper middle. And I'm not aware of anything that points to being a top 5 payroll giving you more chance of success than being a 5-10 payroll.

The Immigrant
12-08-2006, 02:31 PM
The White Sox had the fourth highest payroll in all of baseball last year (maybe this includes some of the money that's kicked in by other teams, but that shouldn't matter). This team's payroll will not go below $100m this season, which virtually guarantees that we will stay in the top ten highest payrolls of the thirty MLB teams. The money is there and the commitment to spend it wisely is there. If the team starts dumping payroll for the sake of dumping payroll I will be the first to call them out for it, but at this point there is absolutely no indication of that happening. If ownership is not ready to take total payroll into the $120-$125 million range one year after raising it from $75 million to >$100 million, they can hardly be blamed for that. Insinuating that JR is cheap, given the players the White Sox currently have under control, is irresponsible journalism at best.

jabrch
12-08-2006, 03:18 PM
give us some reason to go to the games in 2007 and 2008..


You can't come up with a reason to go to games because we dump one or more mediocre (ERA, WHIP) pitchers?

I trust KW will continue to make this team better.

JB98
12-08-2006, 05:46 PM
Actually, after the intial shock, that Garland trade could have been pretty good. Hirsh can certainly hold down the 5th starter job (he will in Houston, if they don't trade him) and Buchholz could have been a long reliever.

The key to the deal is that Willy Tavarez is just what we need at leadoff & CF. While he's no Carl Crawford, he's got good range, a cannon arm, can hit doubles and triples to the gaps, can beat out infield hits and is a terror on the basepaths. I watch a decent amount of Astros games (my fave NL team) - and strictly IMO - he's poised for a breakout year. I can't believe the Astros would want to deal him. They must be real desperate for established pitching with the potential loss of Pettitte & Clemens. The only caveat is that he's a Boras client.

I would feel much better if Vazquez was the pitcher possibly being traded to Houston, though.

I've never seen this Hirsh pitch in my life. I have no idea whether he could hold down the fifth spot in the rotation. To me, that's a reason not to put faith in him because I want to win now. I'll worry about 2009 when it gets here. Hence, I'm relieved Garland didn't get dealt, and I'm disgusted the possibility even existed.

I wouldn't mind acquiring Tavarez, but I'm not interested in giving up a workhorse from the starting rotation to do it.

JB98
12-08-2006, 05:47 PM
Why is everyone overreacting?

KW has multiple kettles in the fire at the same time.

Houston wasn't willing to add Hirsch, deal off.

Houston blinked, and KW went ahead with the Philadelphia deal.

Purpura is trying to save face. I guess it shows how highly-regarded JG is that his name has come up more than any White Sox hurler in recent memory (going back to the Erstad/Singleton deal vetoed by Disney, thanks!), but the White Sox won't deal him this off-season, that much is pretty much guaranteed now.

How do you know? Your speculation is no more valuable than mine or the Cubune's.

caulfield12
12-08-2006, 07:15 PM
:smile: How do you know? Your speculation is no more valuable than mine or the Cubune's.


Knowing KW as you/we do, do you really think he'd go into the 2nd most important season in club history after dumping two veteran starters and not replacing one of them with an obviously "better" pitcher?

KW knows the history of this franchise as well as anyone, he's not stupid.

He also knew that JG was his most valuable negotiating piece, and that dealing Garland was the best option to address the CF, SS, bullpen and leadoff issues simultaneously.

From the proposed trade, that looks accurate.

This trade could have improved three of those four areas IMO.

But it's over with now.