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PicktoCLick72
12-07-2006, 01:00 AM
In this article, Rogers basically said that Williams stated he will not extend any of the current straters and rely on the young arms after that. Who did KW say this to because I'm not sure what Rogers is basing this off of.
http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/cs-061206rogers,1,1443212.column?coll=cs-home-headlines

Trav
12-07-2006, 01:17 AM
In this article, Rogers basically said that Williams stated he will not extend any of the current straters and rely on the young arms after that. Who did KW say this to because I'm not sure what Rogers is basing this off of.
http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/cs-061206rogers,1,1443212.column?coll=cs-home-headlines


I was wondering the same thing. This seems like shoddy reporting to me. Go figure.

KRS1
12-07-2006, 01:25 AM
As stated in the original trade thread, to me, it's a pretty obvious hyperbole.

HotelWhiteSox
12-07-2006, 01:37 AM
When I first read it I thought it was hyperbole. But I read it again and then posted it in the other thread, I don't know, I was wondering if something was said off the record or if I missed some other quote, because he is making some pretty strong statements which would make him a joke if he is just assuming something after the Garcia trade (something he says early in the article it's not about)

Lip Man 1
12-07-2006, 01:38 AM
Well Rogers does say in the story he specifically asked Williams if he was going to turn over all five starters on the roster before the 2008 season ends.

The murkiness comes with his quote of Williams' answer. It leaves open to speculation (Williams answer) the Sox could do just exactly that.

I'm at a loss for words over this entire scenario and the trading of Garcia for junk and another 'can't miss kid.'

Lip

UserNameBlank
12-07-2006, 01:56 AM
BS. Rogers should go **** himself.

There is no way to tell what will happen during the 2007 and 2008 seasons. The Sox could, for all purposes, win back to back World Series Championships. The free agent market will be different. Like Phil freaking Rogers has any idea at all what the future holds.

I don't like the Freddy Garcia trade, but if the Sox and KW can find a way to reap the benefits of this FA market they should. I was very happy with our 5-man rotation today but I will readily admit that that particular rotation is NOT going to be worth something like $70-75 mil per year, which is what it would be if all these guys were extended right now. Who knows, maybe over the '07 offseason things change and it becomes more economical for the Sox to offer a couple of extensions. Right now, a $95-100 mil payroll can not support all of these guys and still pay for 8 positions, a DH, and a bullpen. Instead of keeping Freddy, getting a draft pick when he bolted for FA, and waiting at least one year before we could even trade that draft pick, KW got a couple pieces that can help us now, either on the Sox or by way of a trade.

Edit: KW just said recently that he was looking at extending one of Buehrle/Garcia. Well, hopefully KW announces Mark's extension soon.

Lip Man 1
12-07-2006, 02:16 AM
User:

Can you be a little more specific where Kenny said that? I remember reading a post that said Kenny said he wouldn't talk about negotiations with extensions out of a promise to one of those players involved but that's all I recall.

Lip

UserNameBlank
12-07-2006, 02:27 AM
User:

Can you be a little more specific where Kenny said that? I remember reading a post that said Kenny said he wouldn't talk about negotiations with extensions out of a promise to one of those players involved but that's all I recall.

Lip

It was in some article, forget which one. It was discussed somewhere here though. Maybe someone else remembers exactly which one.

soxtalker
12-07-2006, 07:43 AM
I don't think that it is just Rogers. Take a look at Cowley's article (http://www.suntimes.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/163688,CST-SPT-cowley07.article)in today's Suntimes.

veeter
12-07-2006, 08:29 AM
If the Sox are truly using the Braves as their model, One or two of the veterans will have to stay. I say they extend Garland and Buerhle. Make Vasquez and Contrearas the moveable ones.

WhiteSox5187
12-07-2006, 08:48 AM
If the Sox are truly using the Braves as their model, One or two of the veterans will have to stay. I say they extend Garland and Buerhle. Make Vasquez and Contrearas the moveable ones.
Amen to that...

I got the impression that KW told Phil Rogers DIRECTLY that he would not extend any of the contracts for this rotation.

Craig Grebeck
12-07-2006, 08:52 AM
I hope Haeger gets his shot to start, there's no reason he can't be very good.

veeter
12-07-2006, 08:53 AM
Amen to that...

I got the impression that KW told Phil Rogers DIRECTLY that he would not extend any of the contracts for this rotation.Kenny wears his emeotions on his sleeve. Right now, he's pissed at the market. He'd never say it but he's pissed at the cubs, Yankmees, Boston, Rangers and any other fiscally irresponsible organization. He HAS to extend at least one of the guys because through it all, he needs to keep us, the fans, happy. If the Sox turn into the Marlins, a lot of people are going to be very upset.

WhiteSox5187
12-07-2006, 08:55 AM
Reisendorf is great at pissing off his fan base and he doesn't care whether or not he pisses off the fans. Remember Reisendorf is the man with final say in the White Sox, not Kenny Williams. If Williams had the final say I wouldn't be worried but because Reisendorf has final say I am very worried.

veeter
12-07-2006, 09:00 AM
Reisendorf is great at pissing off his fan base and he doesn't care whether or not he pisses off the fans. Remember Reisendorf is the man with final say in the White Sox, not Kenny Williams. If Williams had the final say I wouldn't be worried but because Reisendorf has final say I am very worried.I disagree. Reinsdorf has given Kenny a lot of leeway. We need to stop focusing on the white flag trade and start remembering these two just built a world champion.

caulfield12
12-07-2006, 09:02 AM
Interesting to see Iguchi named as the first replacement at leadoff for Pods, and it really couldn't be Anderson or Uribe, so that's logical enough.

With Garcia, it was simply a matter of them feeling that McCarthy had AT LEAST an equal chance (if not better) than Garcia to have a sub 4.00, plus the ability to create some additional payroll flexibility.

WhiteSox5187
12-07-2006, 09:15 AM
I disagree. Reinsdorf has given Kenny a lot of leeway. We need to stop focusing on the white flag trade and start remembering these two just built a world champion.
I'm not just remembering the White Flag trade, I'm recalling the '94 season scrapped, the man who fired Rolen Heymond (I'm sure I misspelled that) to bring in Hawk Harrelson, also look to the Bulls! He let Krause disband the dynasty that had one more championship left in it so he could bring his fishing buddy Tim Floyd to coach. <Shrudder>.

Ol' No. 2
12-07-2006, 09:25 AM
Well Rogers does say in the story he specifically asked Williams if he was going to turn over all five starters on the roster before the 2008 season ends.

The murkiness comes with his quote of Williams' answer. It leaves open to speculation (Williams answer) the Sox could do just exactly that.

I'm at a loss for words over this entire scenario and the trading of Garcia for junk and another 'can't miss kid.'

LipFlashback to one year ago: Kenny said he was going to let Jon Garland and Jose Contreras walk.

Don't we know by now how to interpret these kind of remarks?

sox84
12-07-2006, 09:36 AM
Reisendorf is great at pissing off his fan base and he doesn't care whether or not he pisses off the fans. Remember Reisendorf is the man with final say in the White Sox, not Kenny Williams. If Williams had the final say I wouldn't be worried but because Reisendorf has final say I am very worried.

Amen to that!! I hope we're all overreacting, but there's a gnawing feeling in the back of my mind that we might be seeing a regress back to Grinchdorf of 10 years ago.

NoNeckEra
12-07-2006, 09:59 AM
Reisendorf is great at pissing off his fan base and he doesn't care whether or not he pisses off the fans. Remember Reisendorf is the man with final say in the White Sox, not Kenny Williams. If Williams had the final say I wouldn't be worried but because Reisendorf has final say I am very worried.
I'm sure JR is staying up at night thinking of ways to P.O his fan base.
Where do you come up with this stuff? True, all your examples on your subsequent post turned out bad, but weren't bad in concept(such as Tim Floyd). But KW is running this show, and unless you know something he doesn't about Gavin Floyd, let him do his job.

Jurr
12-07-2006, 10:08 AM
I like the thinking, trying to keep a fresh transition of starting pitchers coming to the Sox. That's asking a helluva lot out of Don Cooper, though. Having to manage the mechanics and mentalities of a young crop of pitchers through a season can't be easy. However, maybe they're beginning to believe that Cooper is a bona fide guru, along the lines of Mazzone.

Lip Man 1
12-07-2006, 10:16 AM
Veeter:

The issue I guess is that correct or not, fair or unfair, many Sox fans remember the incredibly stupid, bothched, arrogant things this owenrship has done in the past and are scared that things might happen again.

It all comes down to 'trust' and many feel that Jerry Reinsdorf simply can't be trusted, that the leopard can't change his spots, that the 'bottom line' is always more important then the 'winning line.'

After finally winning a World Series that may be totally unfair of the fan base but as has been stated, they do remember history. Only time will tell.

One member of the Chicago media who is a dedicated, long time Sox fan and Sox author, e-mailed me that upon hearing the news of the deal he had the same sinking feeling that many fans have posted at WSI, i.e. in his words, "here we go again..."

He then tried to add a touch or humor to break the mood by saying, "at least the lines to the john won't be long..."

Lip

Hitmen77
12-07-2006, 10:21 AM
that was a terrible article - even by Phil Rogers's standards. He really rips into JR and KW for something that might happen 2 or 3 years from now.

White Sox fans, go ahead and make plans to be busy with something other than watching baseball games in late-summer 2009, if not also '08.

..the dynasty of a Sox fan's dreams seems to be in serious danger of crumbling, thanks to a stunning bit of arrogance from club Chairman Jerry Reinsdorf and general manager Ken Williams.
...some vintage Reinsdorfian my-way-or-the-highway logic ...
...a childish reaction to the rising salaries of pitchers.
....Executives with rival clubs were at least somewhat incredulous about the brazen nature of this plan. One called it "counter to everything they've been doing."...

***?
Did KW really say they are most definitely not going to extend any current starters and let them all walk? Is it even remotely possible that KW meant that the Sox, in order to be consistently competitive long-term, have to plan for the possibility that all of their current starters will be gone after their contracts are up.

You have to admit that, if all 4 remaining veteran starters continue to be quality pitchers over the next 2 years and the market remains the same, it's not too likely that the Sox are going to be able to shell out $15 million per year for each of them. Would Rogers rather the Sox stuck with, say Garland and Buerhle past 2008 and have total garbage for our #4 and #5 starters?

While I am disappointed in what we got in return for Garcia, I don't disagree with the philosophy that re-stocking with minor league talent is a key part of continued success.

WhiteSox5187
12-07-2006, 10:24 AM
I'm sure JR is staying up at night thinking of ways to P.O his fan base.
Where do you come up with this stuff? True, all your examples on your subsequent post turned out bad, but weren't bad in concept(such as Tim Floyd). But KW is running this show, and unless you know something he doesn't about Gavin Floyd, let him do his job.
He knows a lot more about Floyd than I do, but mind you Reisendorf signs the checks, not KW. And if Reisendorf says "I want you to cut payroll" then KW will do that. This could very well turn out to be a GREAT trade for the Sox. Iwill admit that, and they may very well trade for a Vernon Wells or someone. And then I look like a total idiot. My point though is that Mr. Reisendorf has a track record of doing this sort of thing and doesn't really care whether or not he pisses his fan base off.

Flight #24
12-07-2006, 10:28 AM
There's 2 things that should be kept pretty separate, IMO.

1) JR is cutting salary - that's simply not based on any evidence. KW has said the payroll will stay around the $100M mark. His problem/complaint is #2 below

2) The market is moving beyond what the Sox can afford at $100M in payroll. What's confusing about that is that we've been hearing about how teams are so flush with cash. But looking around, the ludicrous deals have been done by the Red Sox, Cubs, and possibly the Dodgers (if you consider Schmidt ludicrous). Those are all bigger market teams than the Sox. Is it possible that a greater discrepancy between the teams based on markets is developing? If JR keeps the payroll at $100-$110M, but that doesn't enable you to resign all the SPs, is that really his fault?

And yes, Chicago is a large market. But you're a fool if you think that the White Sox have the same resource base as the Cubs, Red Sox, Dodgers, Yankees.

Above all though, I think we need to focus on actions, not words. I simply cannot believe that KW would go with an all-youth rotation and pocket the cash. He may decide it's better for the team to distirbute it differently, but he won't just slash payroll and there's no indication JR will mandate that.

Jurr
12-07-2006, 10:31 AM
***?
Did KW really say they are most definitely not going to extend any current starters and let them all walk? Is it even remotely possible that KW meant that the Sox, in order to be consistently competitive long-term, have to plan for the possibility that all of their current starters will be gone after their contracts are up.

You have to admit that, if all 4 remaining veteran starters continue to be quality pitchers over the next 2 years and the market remains the same, it's not too likely that the Sox are going to be able to shell out $15 million per year for each of them. Would Rogers rather the Sox stuck with, say Garland and Buerhle past 2008 and have total garbage for our #4 and #5 starters?

While I am disappointed in what we got in return for Garcia, I don't disagree with the philosophy that re-stocking with minor league talent is a key part of continued success.
Amen. It's so damn easy to get caught up in the emotion and security that comes with having players that you've seen compete at the highest level and win consistently. However, no smart franchise is going to hold on to every one of those players until their value is way down.

For example...what if Buehrle never recovers from his sub-par 2006? What if he develops some shoulder issue? It's just hard to forecast what's going to happen in the future, so you have to sometimes stick your neck out, bite the bullet, and trade some of these guys away for young talent.

Ol' No. 2
12-07-2006, 10:33 AM
There's 2 things that should be kept pretty separate, IMO.

1) JR is cutting salary - that's simply not based on any evidence. KW has said the payroll will stay around the $100M mark. His problem/complaint is #2 below

2) The market is moving beyond what the Sox can afford at $100M in payroll. What's confusing about that is that we've been hearing about how teams are so flush with cash. But looking around, the ludicrous deals have been done by the Red Sox, Cubs, and possibly the Dodgers (if you consider Schmidt ludicrous). Those are all bigger market teams than the Sox. Is it possible that a greater discrepancy between the teams based on markets is developing? If JR keeps the payroll at $100-$110M, but that doesn't enable you to resign all the SPs, is that really his fault?

And yes, Chicago is a large market. But you're a fool if you think that the White Sox have the same resource base as the Cubs, Red Sox, Dodgers, Yankees.

Above all though, I think we need to focus on actions, not words. I simply cannot believe that KW would go with an all-youth rotation and pocket the cash. He may decide it's better for the team to distirbute it differently, but he won't just slash payroll and there's no indication JR will mandate that.But if the market is moving into the stratosphere, doesn't that affect ALL teams? Garcia is signed at well below market rates. Wouldn't that make him MORE valuable? This is what I don't get.:?:

Flight #24
12-07-2006, 10:39 AM
But if the market is moving into the stratosphere, doesn't that affect ALL teams? Garcia is signed at well below market rates. Wouldn't that make him MORE valuable? This is what I don't get.:?:

I'm with you on that one. And it's not like any surprising new deals got signed in the last day or 2 that necessitated a sudden change in direction for Kenny. I just don't get this, to me it seems like he got an itchy trigger finger and jumped the gun when waiting would probably have gotten him a far greater return.

I mean it's one thing for the Rangers or Mets to turn down Danks/Pelfrey in a deal when they can go out and sign Schmidt/Zito. It's another when the alternative is plugging in said rookie and reducing competitiveness in 2007.

Iwritecode
12-07-2006, 10:52 AM
This appears to be the quote that Rogers and Cowley are over-reacting to:

''It was our intention to talk about extensions with every one of [the current starting pitchers] because they're all young, they're all durable and I don't think -- at one point in time -- outside of the business question,'' Williams said. ''What's going on now in the market, it's not realistic for us to go that route. We've got to make an adjustment.''

They for some reason are interpreting that last sentence as "we aren't going to keep any of our starters". I'd like to believe he's saying they'll only be able to keep 1-3 rather than all five.

Lip Man 1
12-07-2006, 10:52 AM
As usual gang me thinks there is probably more going on behind the scenes then we can imagine.

I'll be on the phone this afternoon working my sources both inside and outside of the organization but I don't think I'll find out much, I mean if Don Cooper says he wasn't consulted that I have to think the folks that I know probably don't know much more either.

If I can find out some reasoning or something that hasn't been talked about, I'll post it.

Also I suggest watching if possible Chicago Tribune Live! today on Comcast Sports Chicago. I have to think they'll have Rogers on to talk about his column.

Lip

SABRSox
12-07-2006, 10:56 AM
They for some reason are interpreting that last sentence as "we aren't going to keep any of our starters". I'd like to believe he's saying they'll only be able to keep 1-3 rather than all five.

I think that's what Kenny is referring to. He's probably thinking now he can afford the 1-3, and needs to trade the rest for the best young, cheap guys he can get that will be here quickly.

I still think he extends Buehrle, unless somebody blows him away with a deal for Vernon Wells or Anthony Reyes. I think he'd also be more inclined to extend Garland as well, but who knows. He's probably the most attractive to other teams in terms of a trade. Personally, I think when the Mets miss out on Zito, the Sox trade him to them for some prospects. (Pelfrey and Milledge, please...)

HotelWhiteSox
12-07-2006, 10:59 AM
Doesn't seem as out of reach now

infohawk
12-07-2006, 11:00 AM
Amen to that!! I hope we're all overreacting, but there's a gnawing feeling in the back of my mind that we might be seeing a regress back to Grinchdorf of 10 years ago.
I think there is a great deal of wisdom in not getting caught up in the "irrational exhuberance" of this year's free agent market. I agree with KW, several teams are going to get burned, and badly. I don't want the White Sox to be one of them. I don't think that the Sox will let every free agent pitcher go, but it's clear that they can't keep all of them. Waaaay too expensive. I really do believe that sustained success means you have to be able to turn your roster over. The smart GMs keep cheap replacements in the pipelines. The dumb GMs are at the mercy of the market, year after year. I don't herald a GM as particularly good or visionary for going out and signing multiple free agents to expensive deals. Fact is, they do that because they failed to restock their club to begin with. They're not heros, but dolts.

Lip Man 1
12-07-2006, 11:07 AM
Info:

Agreed with one condition...your minor league system has to produce. And the track record of the Sox pitching prospects in the past ten, fifteen years hasn't been the greatest has it?

Lip

Vernam
12-07-2006, 11:32 AM
Flashback to one year ago: Kenny said he was going to let Jon Garland and Jose Contreras walk.

Don't we know by now how to interpret these kind of remarks?
Amen. I wouldn't be surprised to see Buehrle re-signed soon.

The Cowley article struck me as reasonable, but Rogers's read like Cubune propaganda. He begins by taking a shot at JR and KW as skinflints, but by the end of the article he sounds like he's lost his nerve -- as if he was writing what an editor "suggested" but halfway through realized it was a crock of ****. The Sox are supposed to throw money at Garcia, Vazquez and Buehrle? Hell, Rogers mentions Garland, too, though he's locked up through next season. BS.

Ever since Wayne Garland -- the first major free-agent bust in the 70s -- it's been a losing proposition to give big, long-term contracts to starters. They're just too iffy. Freddie has thrown 200 innings for five straight years. You could look and say he's a horse we have to keep, or he's a horse who's one or two seasons from the glue factory. But I think people on WSI are over-rating the trade value of Garcia with one year left on his contract.

To really pry bodies away from some team, we'd have to trade Garland. Any takers? I didn't think so. Kenny knows the Sox need to reload with some young arms, but very few of the teams in the market for one of our starters have any arms to trade.

The symbolism of Hendry being hooked to an EKG while he signed all that money over to a mediocrity like Lilly is something that will endure. I wish the guy a speedy recovery, but he should have his head examined while he's at it.

Vernam

IowaSox1971
12-07-2006, 01:12 PM
Rogers wrote last year after the Thome trade that giving up Gonzalez was a big risk for us.

Then early Friday evening, before the Garcia trade is made, Rogers rips the Sox, writing that they have done nothing at the Winter Meetings and that they need to get younger and cheaper pitching or else they won't be able to fill out a rotation in 2008 or 2009.

Then late Friday evening, after the Sox reacquire Gonzalez (and another promising young pitcher), Rogers revises his column and criticizes the Sox again, basically because they won't do what the Cubs are doing and overpay mediocre veteran pitchers.

MRM
12-07-2006, 01:15 PM
Edit: KW just said recently that he was looking at extending one of Buehrle/Garcia. Well, hopefully KW announces Mark's extension soon.

When did he say that? He was asked if he was considering extending one of them and simply answered he'd be breaking a promise to one of them if he discussed it.

UserNameBlank
12-07-2006, 01:34 PM
When did he say that? He was asked if he was considering extending one of them and simply answered he'd be breaking a promise to one of them if he discussed it.

That sounds kind of like extension talk to me though. Would he really care about breaking a promise to a guy that has refused to negotiate? I don't know if anything will happen, but I have to think KW and Mark are either in negotiations now or will be soon. I'm thinking once Zito signs Mark's agent will have a good figure to go by, so maybe something heats up then.

Lip Man 1
12-07-2006, 01:37 PM
User:

Knowing Williams MO from the folks that I have spoken with, yes. He gave his word to that player and even if he was NOT negotiating with him Williams' word means something to him. I think he wouldn't say anything even if it was already decided there would not be an extension.

Lip

maurice
12-07-2006, 01:43 PM
Sounds like Phil is off his medication . . . or maybe he was just on a short deadline. Didn't the Garcia trade news break late?

There's absolutely no way in heck that KW accurately laid out his 3-year plan for the benefit of Rogers (and every other MLB GM). He's just overreacting to a single move that was predictable to anybody who watches KW closely. This sort of trade has been in the works since the Vazquez / Young deal.

slavko
12-07-2006, 01:49 PM
Flashback to one year ago: Kenny said he was going to let Jon Garland and Jose Contreras walk.

Don't we know by now how to interpret these kind of remarks?

This, IMO, is the key to the whole thing. Kenny plays it close to the vest, spreads a little "misinformation," and a columnist who can't remember what he wrote a short time ago misinterprets it and jumps on it to create a negative column. Then we all get in an uproar. My advice: leave work early and take a nap before dinner. Then watch a WS DVD after dinner. Get a good night's rest. Be happy.

SoxFan64
12-07-2006, 02:38 PM
I think too many people are reacting to KW's every move and intrepreting his every move in the present and not seeing the larger picture. This is a poker game (or a chess match -- choose your analogy) where the next move is not the final move.

The market has gone away from the Sox; they don't have the resources or won't commit the resources to overpay. Reinsdorf (sp?) has said on more than one occasion that he is at the mercy of his dumbest competitor (other owners). When one of the other owners starts to overpay than everyone else does the same thing and the market for players gets out of whack.

That is what is going in the present.

Prior to the end of the season, KW mentioned that he did not want to get too old and that moves would be made to prevent that. I think yesterday's trade fits that mold.

By trading for potential in lieu of proven performance KW gets time and saves money. The trade-off is the potential never materializes.

At the same time, Rogers article makes perfect sense. To me, he is writing like Lip posted at the beginning of this thread... "oh no, here he (Reinsdorf - sp) goes again." If Jerry/KW go too far in trading proven for potential then they risk losing their fan base. They know this. Sox fans, unlike the Flubbies, will not support a crap product. So Rogers article and others like that reinforce the fans' approach that don't turn this into a fire sale.

We will lose more players sometime over the next year. My guess someone from the following group: Crede, Buehrle, Garland, JC, Gooch and Dye. We will get back youth, time (before the new players reach free agency) and save money.

It will be incumbent on the front office to make sure they have ID-ed the right people and made the right choices. It will also be incumbent on the coaching staff to make corrections in mechanics to make the potential become the proven.

The Sox will blow a few of these deals but if one or two of them come through and the market for players recedes to its 2003-05 levels of sanity then the Sox will be positioned well for the future. If KW and his staff blow it then the fans will leave -- and if the Flubbies catch lightening in the bottle -- then Chicago will put the success of 2005 in the rear view mirror.

In short we can overpay for players now and hope to win this year. The risk is if you miss the brass ring and if you lose players to FA whose contracts expire at the end of 2007 then our team goes into rebuilding mode and we watch the town talk about the Cubbies this and the Cubbies that.

If the team backs up the truck this year and goes south in the standings then the front office risks losing us for a long time.

Nice position to be in.

UserNameBlank
12-07-2006, 02:53 PM
User:

Knowing Williams MO from the folks that I have spoken with, yes. He gave his word to that player and even if he was NOT negotiating with him Williams' word means something to him. I think he wouldn't say anything even if it was already decided there would not be an extension.

Lip

Maybe so, but it's kind of confusing. The only two members of the rotation possibly headed to FA after '07 were Mark and Freddy, and Freddy was just traded.

All offseason so far there have been pretty heavy rumors about Vazquez and now according to at least two sources Garland was close to being traded. I just don't see how KW would trade Freddy and entertain trading another pitcher with 2 years left on his contract if he wasn't sure he could re-sign Mark. Because unless KW used the pieces from trading Freddy and one of Vazquez/Garland to get say Willis, the Sox would go into '08 with McCarthy, Contreras in his final year, one of Vaz/Jon in his final year, and a couple prospects.

The thing is, I don't see KW doing that. I think it makes sense to get younger and cheaper but also continue to compete, and I think that is what KW will do.

But who knows though, Contreras, Mark, Javy, and Jon could all be gone by next month for all I know.

maurice
12-07-2006, 03:08 PM
IMO, KW remained open to trading any of his starters so that he could accurately gauge to their trade value and throw up a smokescreen to help him "fly under the radar."

The guy he targeted to trade many months ago was Garcia (even Garcia knew this). What he always wanted to get back was young pitching. Turns out, he ended up trading Garcia for young pitching.

Flight #24
12-07-2006, 03:15 PM
Think back to everything Kenny has said since BEFORE winning the WS. Things like "We need to build around pitching", "We never want to be in the position of not having a 5th starter". Some of which were reiterated even recently, AFTER the rumored prices of FAs like Lilly & Meches were $10M/yr.

Now think back to what Kenny has DONE - resigning both Jose & Jon. Trading for Javy and making McCarthy a 6th starter. Trading for Jose & Freddy in '04.

It's pretty clear that he understands that you win with pitching. I cannot believe that a guy who believes that and looks at the age of his position players is going to deal away all 4 veteran SPs for rookies. Ain't happening. He'll probably deal 1 more or maybe even 2 by this time nexty year, but you won't be going into '08 with McCarthy, Floyd, Gonzalez, Haeger, & Broadway in the rotation.

Now think back to how KW negotiates. "We're not going to be able to extend Jon and Jose" (paraphrased). It's pretty clear that he's sending a message to the SPs that if they want to stay, they'll be reasonable in their requests. I'd bet that Buehrle re-ups before opening day and that they get one of Garland or Javy done before OD'08.

Paulwny
12-07-2006, 03:26 PM
Now think back to how KW negotiates. "We're not going to be able to extend Jon and Jose" (paraphrased). It's pretty clear that he's sending a message to the SPs that if they want to stay, they'll be reasonable in their requests. I'd bet that Buehrle re-ups before opening day and that they get one of Garland or Javy done before OD'08.


I think its time for JR to be a little more reasonable with his refusal to give SP's 4+ yr contracts. This is one reason it may be difficult to keep the staff together.

lakeviewsoxfan
12-07-2006, 03:31 PM
I think its time for JR to be a little more reasonable with his refusal to give SP's 4+ yr contracts. This is one reason it may be difficult to keep the staff together.

Now thats not going to happen, I completely agree with the clubs policy with the 3 yr. deal max for pitchers it makes complete sense.

MRM
12-07-2006, 03:34 PM
Now thats not going to happen, I completely agree with the clubs policy with the 3 yr. deal max for pitchers it makes complete sense.

Absolutely. How many of these 4-6 year contracts for pitchers have worked out? I can't think of one. I can think of several that really hurt the signing team, though.

Paulwny
12-07-2006, 03:40 PM
Now thats not going to happen, I completely agree with the clubs policy with the 3 yr. deal max for pitchers it makes complete sense.

Absolutely. How many of these 4-6 year contracts for pitchers have worked out? I can't think of one. I can think of several that really hurt the signing team, though.


Don't look for quality fa sp's to sign with the sox, KW will always have to trade for them.

caulfield12
12-07-2006, 03:44 PM
I think its time for JR to be a little more reasonable with his refusal to give SP's 4+ yr contracts. This is one reason it may be difficult to keep the staff together.

Who would you give one to?

Garland? You can't be serious about giving that to either Buerhle or Contreras at this point?

Ol' No. 2
12-07-2006, 03:52 PM
Don't look for quality fa sp's to sign with the sox, KW will always have to trade for them.How many FA starting pitchers can you name who signed big 4+ year contracts and who proved to be worth the money? It's a pretty short list. I'm pretty sure I can name 5 times the number who weren't. As long as you keep supplying your team with young pitchers and supplementing with trades for guys with 1-2 years remaining on their contracts, you're in a good position. It doesn't take too many albatross contracts to completely handcuff the team for a good long time.

Paulwny
12-07-2006, 03:56 PM
Who would you give one to?

Garland? You can't be serious about giving that to either Buerhle or Contreras at this point?


It's all relative, what are other teams willing to offer?, can the sox easily replace these pitchers or will they wait X number of years for a pitcher to develop in the minors. With JR's attitude KW will have a difficult time negotiating with FA SP's.

Paulwny
12-07-2006, 04:00 PM
How many FA starting pitchers can you name who signed big 4+ year contracts and who proved to be worth the money? It's a pretty short list. I'm pretty sure I can name 5 times the number who weren't. As long as you keep supplying your team with young pitchers and supplementing with trades for guys with 1-2 years remaining on their contracts, you're in a good position. It doesn't take too many albatross contracts to completely handcuff the team for a good long time.

Not many , but many teams are probably sacrificing a year to be able to obtain 3-4 quality years. Name a quality fa sp the sox have signed recently. please don't list El Duque.

Ol' No. 2
12-07-2006, 04:10 PM
Not many , but many teams are probably sacrificing a year to be able to obtain 3-4 quality years. Name a quality fa sp the sox have signed recently. please don't list El Duque.I can't recall the last one...and it's worked out pretty well. Remember the FA pitchers the Sox pursued in the last few years and didn't get?

Matt Clement :puking:
Jaret Wright :puking::puking:
Sidney Ponson :puking::puking::puking:

Please, Kenny, keep striking out.

Paulwny
12-07-2006, 04:16 PM
I can't recall the last one...and it's worked out pretty well. Remember the FA pitchers the Sox pursued in the last few years and didn't get?

Matt Clement :puking:
Jaret Wright :puking::puking:
Sidney Ponson :puking::puking::puking:

Please, Kenny, keep striking out.

So if KW pursued these pitchers everyone who thinks KW can evaluate pitchers is wrong .

Flight #24
12-07-2006, 04:30 PM
So if KW pursued these pitchers everyone who thinks KW can evaluate pitchers is wrong .

I know some guys who'd disagree with you. Their names are Jose, Freddy, Javy, Brandon, Bobby, Damaso, Neal, Matt, Mike, & Esteban.

Paulwny
12-07-2006, 04:43 PM
I know some guys who'd disagree with you. Their names are Jose, Freddy, Javy, Brandon, Bobby, Damaso, Neal, Matt, Mike, & Esteban.

This has gone off course. If JR doesn't change his stance on long term contracts for sp's, no quality fa sp will sign with the sox. Other teams knowing JR's feelings will toss in another year to a pitcher who is in negotiations with them and the sox.
The sox will have to wait for a pitcher to develop or KW will have to make some trades. Then people here will be complaining that the sox are depleting the minors.
When some of the crappiest pitchers (Lily), are receiving > 3 yr contracts it's time for JR to re-evaluate his stance.

Ol' No. 2
12-07-2006, 04:52 PM
This has gone off course. If JR doesn't change his stance on long term contarcts for sp's, no quality fa sp will sign with the sox. Other teams knowing JR's feelings will toss in another year to a pitcher who is in negotiations with them and the sox.
The sox will have to wait for a pitcher to develop or KW will have to make some trades. Then people here will be complaining that the sox are depleting the minors.
When some of the crappiest pitchers (Lily), are receiving > 3 yr contracts it's time for JR to re-evaluate his atance.When I see a pitcher actually earn one of those monster contracts I'll agree with you. I'd rather avoid the albatrosses, thank you very much. All the more reason to pass and let other teams screw themselves up. What, exactly are they missing out on, anyway? Kevin Brown? Matt Clement?? Carl Pavano?? I'll pass.

Daver
12-07-2006, 05:03 PM
Kenny traded for Freddy Garcia, and then signed him to a relatively short term extension, it can be done. Making the blanket statement that a FA pitcher will not sign for less than 5 years is painting with a very broad brush.

Ol' No. 2
12-07-2006, 05:06 PM
Can someone please explain why people are simultaneously laughing at other teams signing mediocre pitchers to ridiculous contracts and bemoaning the fact that the Sox aren't doing the same?:?:

Paulwny
12-07-2006, 05:09 PM
Kenny traded for Freddy Garcia, and then signed him to a relatively short term extension, it can be done. Making the blanket statement that a FA pitcher will not sign for less than 5 years is painting with a very broad brush.


Damn Daver, I thought I was clear since no one had mentioned Garcia. He's one of the few exceptions, the vast majority of Fa SP's want the longest years contract they can obtain.

Ol' No. 2
12-07-2006, 05:12 PM
Damn Daver, I thought I was clear since no one had mentioned Garcia. He's one of the few exceptions, the vast majority of Fa SP's want the longest years contract they can obtain.Garland and Contreras also signed 3-year deals. I can't quite grasp your point. Do you WANT them to sign guys like Ted Lilly for 4/$40M?

Flight #24
12-07-2006, 05:16 PM
FWIW, I think a couple of other trends we're going to see in the market is that you don't see guys significantly better than Lilly hit FA. You'll see guys get significant extensions. There's already been a trend towards that the past year or 2 with Sheets being a prime example. Sure, you'll have a Bora$$ client every so often - but for the most part I think you'll see pitchers take reasonable deals 1-2 years before hitting the market.

That means that if you want front-of-the-rotation guys, you're going to have to develop them or have the minor league chips to trade for them. I'd guess that's what Kenny's trying to get a head start on.

I'll say it again - I believe Buehrle will get resigned on a 3-4yr deal, at maybe ~$13M/yr. Possibly 5 for him because he's not a real injury risk in terms of his delivery and because he's kind of the pitcher equivalent to Konerko in terms of being the "face of the franchise".

Paulwny
12-07-2006, 05:20 PM
Garland and Contreras also signed 3-year deals. I can't quite grasp your point. Do you WANT them to sign guys like Ted Lilly for 4/$40M?

Of course not, however when a quality, and I've said quality in about 5 posts, fa sp is available I want the sox to be competative. With JR's attitude KW has one hand tied behind his back during negotiations. I don't belive any of the current fa sp's is worth their contracts.
In future yrs the sox will have to re-sign starters or negotiate with fa's, it won't be easy for KW.

Daver
12-07-2006, 05:25 PM
Of course not, however when a quality, and I've said quality in about 5 posts, fa sp is available I want the sox to be competative. With JR's attitude KW has one hand tied behind his back during negotiations. I don't belive any of the current fa sp's is worth their contracts.
In future yrs the sox will have to re-sign starters or negotiate with fa's, it won't be easy for KW.

Jerry Reinsdorf's attitude has changed a lot since Oct. of 2005, 2006 showed him that fielding a winning team can and will pay for itself many times over in the long run, but you have to continue to win.

Ol' No. 2
12-07-2006, 05:25 PM
Of course not, however when a quality, and I've said quality in about 5 posts, fa sp is available I want the sox to be competative. With JR's attitude KW has one hand tied behind his back during negotiations. I don't belive any of the current fa sp's is worth their contracts.
In future yrs the sox will have to re-sign starters or negotiate with fa's, it won't be easy for KW.But if guys like Lilly are signing for this kind of money, what are quality starters going to go for? I'd have to assume Zito is going to get 6 years and a bazillion dollars. Is that what you want? It seems to me FA pitchers come in two categories: overpriced mediocrity or stratospherically overpriced quality. I don't think either represents a good deal. How many can you name in the last few years who have been worth it?

fquaye149
12-07-2006, 05:28 PM
Can someone please explain why people are simultaneously laughing at other teams signing mediocre pitchers to ridiculous contracts and bemoaning the fact that the Sox aren't doing the same?:?:

BINGO.

fquaye149
12-07-2006, 05:29 PM
But if guys like Lilly are signing for this kind of money, what are quality starters going to go for? I'd have to assume Zito is going to get 6 years and a bazillion dollars. Is that what you want? It seems to me FA pitchers come in two categories: overpriced mediocrity or stratospherically overpriced quality. I don't think either represents a good deal. How many can you name in the last few years who have been worth it?

But you're the one who wants us to go out and sign free agent relievers?:tongue:

Paulwny
12-07-2006, 05:34 PM
But if guys like Lilly are signing for this kind of money, what are quality starters going to go for? I'd have to assume Zito is going to get 6 years and a bazillion dollars. Is that what you want? It seems to me FA pitchers come in two categories: overpriced mediocrity or stratospherically overpriced quality. I don't think either represents a good deal. How many can you name in the last few years who have been worth it?

If you want to remain competative every year, then when in Rome do as ......, or trade for starters ,or wait till a starter develops. I agree, not many if actually any starters were worth their contracts, but this just shows the quality of pitching in the minors.

Ol' No. 2
12-07-2006, 07:46 PM
But you're the one who wants us to go out and sign free agent relievers?:tongue:Yeah, there's a great comparison. 6 yr/$100M+ contracts vs. a 2 yr $6M contract for a reliever.

fquaye149
12-07-2006, 08:19 PM
Yeah, there's a great comparison. 6 yr/$100M+ contracts vs. a 2 yr $6M contract for a reliever.

who you gonna get for 3 mill a year who's worth a damn...

sigh...i remember when tom gordon's 3 million deal with the yanks was considered bat**** crazy

caulfield12
12-07-2006, 08:21 PM
It's all relative, what are other teams willing to offer?, can the sox easily replace these pitchers or will they wait X number of years for a pitcher to develop in the minors. With JR's attitude KW will have a difficult time negotiating with FA SP's.


Yes, in the 2005 offseason, they dismantled the team ala Florida and let Garland and Contreras depart without trying to sign them to extensions....oops!

caulfield12
12-07-2006, 08:24 PM
FWIW, I think a couple of other trends we're going to see in the market is that you don't see guys significantly better than Lilly hit FA. You'll see guys get significant extensions. There's already been a trend towards that the past year or 2 with Sheets being a prime example. Sure, you'll have a Bora$$ client every so often - but for the most part I think you'll see pitchers take reasonable deals 1-2 years before hitting the market.

That means that if you want front-of-the-rotation guys, you're going to have to develop them or have the minor league chips to trade for them. I'd guess that's what Kenny's trying to get a head start on.

I'll say it again - I believe Buehrle will get resigned on a 3-4yr deal, at maybe ~$13M/yr. Possibly 5 for him because he's not a real injury risk in terms of his delivery and because he's kind of the pitcher equivalent to Konerko in terms of being the "face of the franchise".

FWIW, the Oswalt contract is really seen as the "gold standard" for the upper tier pitchers now.

caulfield12
12-07-2006, 08:26 PM
But if guys like Lilly are signing for this kind of money, what are quality starters going to go for? I'd have to assume Zito is going to get 6 years and a bazillion dollars. Is that what you want? It seems to me FA pitchers come in two categories: overpriced mediocrity or stratospherically overpriced quality. I don't think either represents a good deal. How many can you name in the last few years who have been worth it?


For instance, where would we have been last season if we were stuck with Colon's deal that was rejected?

We would have been back to the fifth starter issue I fear.

Ol' No. 2
12-07-2006, 08:52 PM
who you gonna get for 3 mill a year who's worth a damn...

sigh...i remember when tom gordon's 3 million deal with the yanks was considered bat**** crazyEven at $4-5M, it's not going to be more than a 2 yr deal. That's a far cry from a $100M+ contract for a FA pitcher.

Jurr
12-07-2006, 09:02 PM
The good teams...the REALLY good teams nowadays don't have more than 1 pitcher signed long term from any of the free agency extravangzas.

The good teams are bringing up guys from the majors, working them into quality starters, then extend them as long as possible. Period.

You sometimes have to let a guy struggle for a little while and take your lumps to get a later return. Sorry, but that's the way it goes. We had to do it with Garland, Crede, Rowand, and the list goes on and on.

When you sign these guys to HUGE contracts, unless you're the Yankees, you tie yourself up to a guy that could just as easily end up sucking or going on the DL for an extended period of time as winning you 20 games.

Does Matt Clement ring a bell? Josh Beckett? Red Sox fans thought they had another WS ring in the bag when the ST rosters came out. How quickly dreams vanish.

By doing the three year extension, you keep yourself flexible enough to make a move if one of the guys ends up getting hurt or falling apart. You can't do that when you tie up a guy for 6 years and 12-15 million per.

Ol' No. 2
12-07-2006, 09:05 PM
The good teams...the REALLY good teams nowadays don't have more than 1 pitcher signed long term from any of the free agency extravangzas.

The good teams are bringing up guys from the majors, working them into quality starters, then extend them as long as possible. Period.

You sometimes have to let a guy struggle for a little while and take your lumps to get a later return. Sorry, but that's the way it goes. We had to do it with Garland, Crede, Rowand, and the list goes on and on.

When you sign these guys to HUGE contracts, unless you're the Yankees, you tie yourself up to a guy that could just as easily end up sucking or going on the DL for an extended period of time as winning you 20 games.

Does Matt Clement ring a bell? Josh Beckett? Red Sox fans thought they had another WS ring in the bag when the ST rosters came out. How quickly dreams vanish.

By doing the three year extension, you keep yourself flexible enough to make a move if one of the guys ends up getting hurt or falling apart. You can't do that when you tie up a guy for 6 years and 12-15 million per.I've been trying to think of a FA pitcher who's signed a big contract in the last 5 years or so who's worked out.

Still thinking...

fquaye149
12-07-2006, 09:08 PM
Even at $4-5M, it's not going to be more than a 2 yr deal. That's a far cry from a $100M+ contract for a FA pitcher.

It's true...there's less years invested, but utility-wise it's still ****ty---middle relievers are a crapshoot

Signing free agent pitching is not a pleasant thing, imo, no matter who it is and how it's done.

Hell, I think this trade with Freddy shows how high the trade value of middle relief likely is,too, that we couldn't get even one serviceable middle reliever for Freddy

Ol' No. 2
12-07-2006, 09:11 PM
It's true...there's less years invested, but utility-wise it's still ****ty---middle relievers are a crapshoot

Signing free agent pitching is not a pleasant thing, imo, no matter who it is and how it's done.

Hell, I think this trade with Freddy shows how high the trade value of middle relief likely is,too, that we couldn't get even one serviceable middle reliever for FreddyI'll bet I can come up with more FA relievers who worked out than FA starters. Besides, the downside risk is so much smaller.

Fake Chet Lemon
12-07-2006, 09:14 PM
I just hate Kenny's crying about the market. Shut up. The market is the market, regardless of your industry. If you can't compete in your marketplace you die. No use crying about it, that doesn't help anything. We need godfather Marlon Brando to slap Kenny in the face and tell him to stop it and act like a man. I never thought I'd say that about KW.

You sold 3mil tickets and had monster TV ratings last year, bump the payroll accordingly and you can compete. They spent more than the Twins and Tigers last year, those two teams didn't bitch about competing with the Chicago market.

Jurr
12-07-2006, 09:15 PM
Damn, not to change the subject, but I'm watching game 5 of the ALCS. Anaheim just got up 3-2, and I'm still pissed off. Weird.

Jurr
12-07-2006, 09:16 PM
I just hate Kenny's crying about the market. Shut up. The market is the market, regardless of your industry. If you can't compete in your marketplace you die. No use crying about it, that doesn't help anything. We need godfather Marlon Brando to slap Kenny in the face and tell him to stop it and act like a man. I never thought I'd say that about KW.

You sold 3mil tickets and had monster TV ratings last year, bump the payroll accordingly and you can compete. They spent more than the Twins and Tigers last year, those two teams didn't bitch about competing with the Chicago market.
Yeah...he pissed and moaned about the market, which led him to miss out on the Matt Clement bonanza. He "settled" on El Duque. Clement gave up a BIG crooked number in the playoffs and then trotted onto the bench.

Oh, yeah, we won a WS with a 75 million dollar payroll. Man enough for ya?

cheezheadsoxfan
12-07-2006, 11:38 PM
Yeah...he pissed and moaned about the market, which led him to miss out on the Matt Clement bonanza. He "settled" on El Duque. Clement gave up a BIG crooked number in the playoffs and then trotted onto the bench.

Oh, yeah, we won a WS with a 75 million dollar payroll. Man enough for ya?

What he said.:cool:

GoSox2K3
12-19-2006, 12:33 PM
Interesting comment from Rogers on Sox fans reaction to this column:
http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/cs-061218my2006rogers,1,96787.story?coll=cs-whitesox-headlines

Man, did White Sox fans hate the columns I wrote from the winter meetings critical of the Jerry Reinsdorf/Ken Williams decision to rebuild the World Series rotation over the next two years rather than adjust to the increased value of pitchers in this market. I can't believe fans really want to see Mark Buehrle and Jon Garland follow Freddy Garcia out of town, but they don't want any outsiders criticizing their team, especially not someone from "the Cubune."

Phil, maybe it's because you (unlike Joe Cowley, for example) are mischaracterizing what the Sox are doing.

The Sox never said they're definitely dumping all of their starters. Rather, KW realizes this may happen and, at the very least, they're going to lose at least a few of their starters. What they're trying to do is balance winning now with not being empty handed in 2009.

Why is it so hard to understand that this is not the same as gutting their rotation or as having a "fire sale" (actual comment from the Trib's Morrissey)?


EDIT: Sorry, I didn't realize there was a new thread on Phil's latest comments in what's the score.

Vernam
12-19-2006, 12:54 PM
Interesting comment from Rogers on Sox fans reaction to this column:
http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/cs-061218my2006rogers,1,96787.story?coll=cs-whitesox-headlines
I want to believe Rogers does get it, and his reference to "the Cubune" is a subliminal message. Like a hostage on video, blinking "Help Me" in morse code. :cool:

Vernam

CaptainBallz
12-19-2006, 03:52 PM
I want to believe Rogers does get it, and his reference to "the Cubune" is a subliminal message. Like a hostage on video, blinking "Help Me" in morse code. :cool:

Vernam

Unfortunately, just like the hostage in the video, we're all well aware that he needs help, but unlike the hostage, there's no gun to his head making him write stupid ****.

Tragg
12-19-2006, 06:29 PM
If you want to remain competative every year, then when in Rome do as ......, or trade for starters ,or wait till a starter develops. I agree, not many if actually any starters were worth their contracts, but this just shows the quality of pitching in the minors.
But it's the Cubs and Jays and Royals that live in "Rome". Champions aren't signing the Jason Marquis's to $40 million deals - the Cubs are doing that and the World Champion Cardinals are letting them do that. My best advice is to NOT follow the practices of the Royals and the Cubs.

The strategy is changing, no question; and I don't know what the right strategy is... You don't see winning organizations chasing mediocrity for $50 million (the BoSox, for example, spent a ton of money on a Japanese pitcher precisely because they are looking for a difference-maker, instead of the usual suspects).
I seriously doubt that the Cubs and Royals have the answers.

jabrch
12-19-2006, 06:40 PM
KW always tells people one thing, and does another. Garland wasn't being resigned - then he was. We weren't trading a starter - then we did.

Is it possible that some combination of McCarthy, Floyd, Gio, Broadway, Sisco, Haeger, Kyle M, etc. are MLB calibre starters and it becomes unneeded to extend some of our guys, so we can either trade them or take draft pick compensation for them. If those guys do develop - then that's great. There's also a lot of money lying around that Kenny can use to resign one or more of the SPs on todays roster.

Don't get your panties in a bunch about an article that talks about what we will do after this and next offseason. It's really silly.

SluggersAway
12-19-2006, 09:06 PM
The problem is that with the increased revenue, Jerry has the ability to sign some players that will make us competitive in the new market, but he has been reluctant to do so.

Sure, you can try to go cheap and develop some arms for 2008/2009, but it is a crap shoot.

We need a real CF (or someone suitable to back BA up), a real SS (or one that can hit aswell as defend), another reliable bullpen arm, and maybe a starting pitcher depending on how some of our starters bounce back.

TheOldRoman
12-19-2006, 09:19 PM
The problem is that with the increased revenue, Jerry has the ability to sign some players that will make us competitive in the new market, but he has been reluctant to do so.

Sure, you can try to go cheap and develop some arms for 2008/2009, but it is a crap shoot.
:thud:
Once again, leave it to the White Sox to decrease payroll while secretly increasing it.:rolleyes:

caulfield12
12-19-2006, 09:20 PM
The problem is that with the increased revenue, Jerry has the ability to sign some players that will make us competitive in the new market, but he has been reluctant to do so.

Sure, you can try to go cheap and develop some arms for 2008/2009, but it is a crap shoot.

We need a real CF (or someone suitable to back BA up), a real SS (or one that can hit aswell as defend), another reliable bullpen arm, and maybe a starting pitcher depending on how some of our starters bounce back.


You are you talking about, Jay Payton?

Or you think we should spend $100 million plus for Vernon Wells or Andruw Jones and simply dump Anderson?

Who do you want JD Drew, Darin Erstad or Preston Wilson?

Please.

Bucky F. Dent
12-20-2006, 07:10 AM
I'm sorry, but I am not willing to burn a hole in my gut worrying about what KW is doing with this team based on some garbage that a cubune shill writes.

Especially when that shill is trumpeting the supposedly succesful offseason that the Cubs have had.

How many games have the Sox won in the past two years? 189

How many games have the Cubs won? 145

I'll stick with what Kenny's plan, thanks.

Brewski
12-20-2006, 10:26 AM
I'm sure that he'll be back here posting again when he has something to sell.

PennStater98r
12-20-2006, 11:05 AM
He's an idiot.

Rogers - YOU'RE AN IDIOT!

It's pretty sad when I am posting the following question to a reporter on this site.

Links? Sources?