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Palehose13
12-07-2006, 12:42 AM
Have at it.

Craig Grebeck
12-07-2006, 12:44 AM
Freddy had three months of an ERA above 5.5, one of 4.8, and another 3.7. September was his shining month, 2.46. I think Brandon may replicate that.

MRM
12-07-2006, 12:44 AM
The whole purpose of trading a starter was to open room for Brandon and the very first thing you say after the trade is Brandon is competing with the guy we traded for.

MRM
12-07-2006, 12:45 AM
Freddy had three months of an ERA above 5.5, one of 4.8, and another 3.7. September was his shining month, 2.46. I think Brandon may replicate that.

Great. Tell me how the trade itself upgrades the team.

Craig Grebeck
12-07-2006, 12:46 AM
Great. Tell me how the trade itself upgrades the team.
We replace a mediocre pitcher with a pitcher who will probably do better than him. We also save around 10 million dollars and upgrade our SP depth in the minor league system.

caulfield12
12-07-2006, 12:46 AM
What if he said Buehrle and Contreras are competing with Brandon?

Brandon's at a different point in his career, you just don't "give" him the spot, you open it up to everyone...like they did with Logan.

It shows the minor leaguers anyone like a Sweeney or Logan can really make a mark in ST and even make the club or force a decision.

ilsox7
12-07-2006, 12:47 AM
Great. Tell me how the trade itself upgrades the team.

If you think, as many do, that McCarthy > Freddy and Floyd = Bullpe McCarthy, then the team is improved before you even get to Gio and the $10MM laying around.

TaylorStSox
12-07-2006, 12:47 AM
Great. Tell me how the trade itself upgrades the team.



I'm sure the equipment manager is happy.

russ99
12-07-2006, 12:47 AM
Freddy had three months of an ERA above 5.5, one of 4.8, and another 3.7. September was his shining month, 2.46. I think Brandon may replicate that.

I wonder if this means the Sox are keeping Vazquez? Of all the starters, I assumed he'd be the one to go.

Of course, I'm discounting that "deal all the starters by 08" quote that I'm sure Kenny will at least partially refute in the next few days.

nodiggity59
12-07-2006, 12:47 AM
Great. Tell me how the trade itself upgrades the team.

Floyd will be better than Freddy next year, to say nothing of what Gio could be in 2 years. Freddy was not an acceptable ML pitcher last season, except for the number of innings he logged.

Domeshot17
12-07-2006, 12:48 AM
I also don't see how freeing up 10 million now does all too much for us. Maybe we make a run at Gagne, if not, who is there on the market for set up middle relief? Dotel is only listening to offers where he can close. Mota is out for 50 games for bondsing it.

Maybe we sign a back up catcher, but we have a good young one in Chris Stewart who calls a good game, can catch Haeger, and has one of the top 5 arms in baseball from behind the plate.

The only SS who would be an upgrade over Uribe is off the market

There is not much left out there.

And Brandon did earn it. If Brandon doesnt get his shot this year, its going to show minor leaguers there is no faith in them. He should have won the rotation spot out of spring training. Last year Vazquez should have never been picked up. Brandon has done everything you could possibly ask of him, even swallowing his pride to be put in a position that he would fail in (relieving). He payed his dues

MRM
12-07-2006, 12:48 AM
"What is Kenny supposed to say to Floyd".

Well, NOTHING, he just traded for him. No way you make that kind of public statement RIGHT AFTER the trade. You haven't even seen the guy in person, yet. What is McCarthy thinking about now?

spiffie
12-07-2006, 12:48 AM
I'm willing to be more optimistic about him since he's so young, but his numbers at AA last year weren't much to write home about:

7-12, 4.66 ERA, 8.15 H/9, 1.40 HR/9, 4.7 BB/9, 9.66 K/9, 1.43 WHIP.

Not awful, but on the other hand nothing that makes you want to get the jump on everyone and get your Gio Gonzalez jersey made up.

I mostly find it funny that so many people screamed "You never trade a starter for relief pitching" and yet if Gio doesn't pan out, that might very well end up being what this trade becomes, Freddy for a middle reliever.

caulfield12
12-07-2006, 12:49 AM
Great. Tell me how the trade itself upgrades the team.


Everyone talks about Freddy's great four starts, but what about Brandon down the stretch in 2005 when he held the team together with Jose?

Boston against Schilling
win over the Rangers in Arlington
pitched Santana to a standstill in Metrodome

That matches up evenly with anything Freddy did this season.

Brandon's just growing into body and adding velocity, Freddy is losing his.

ND_Sox_Fan
12-07-2006, 12:49 AM
Freddy had three months of an ERA above 5.5, one of 4.8, and another 3.7. September was his shining month, 2.46. I think Brandon may replicate that.

I am really looking forward to having Brandon in the rotation. He might be inconsistent and have his struggles, but tree months over 5.5 is a great perspective to have. Let's REMEMBER that when April, May and June come around next year.

ilsox7
12-07-2006, 12:49 AM
"What is Kenny supposed to say to Floyd".

Well, NOTHING, he just traded for him. No way you make that kind of public statement RIGHT AFTER the trade. You haven't even seen the guy in person, yet. What is McCarthy thinking about now?

He's thinking, "My spot in the rotation is not necessarily guaranteed. I better work my butt off this winter and show upto spring training to kick some ass." If Brandon is as good as most think he is, he'll be in the rotation.

spiffie
12-07-2006, 12:50 AM
Floyd will be better than Freddy next year, to say nothing of what Gio could be in 2 years. Freddy was not an acceptable ML pitcher last season, except for the number of innings he logged.
Floyd won't be better than Freddy next year if for no other reason than Freddy will be starting and Floyd will, if he's lucky, get to be the fifth man in the bullpen, or more likely will be starting down in Charlotte. Where I doubt even then he bests Freddy's numbers.

oeo
12-07-2006, 12:50 AM
Great. Tell me how the trade itself upgrades the team.

We may not see the upgrade until next year, but it certainly does not downgrade the team. Unless you want to go the Flubbie route and spend a ****load of money, these are the trades you need to make sometimes.

russ99
12-07-2006, 12:51 AM
"What is Kenny supposed to say to Floyd".

Well, NOTHING, he just traded for him. No way you make that kind of public statement RIGHT AFTER the trade. You haven't even seen the guy in person, yet. What is McCarthy thinking about now?

I think that and Kenny's earlier comments that Brandon might pitch in AAA next year is to keep the kid on his toes and hungry for a starting spot. You don't want the kid assuming he's assured of everything before spring training.

jabrch
12-07-2006, 12:51 AM
There is not much left out there.


There is a lot of very valuable pieces out there, some via FA and other via trade.

MRM
12-07-2006, 12:51 AM
If you think, as many do, that McCarthy > Freddy and Floyd = Bullpe McCarthy, then the team is improved before you even get to Gio and the $10MM laying around.

WRONG. Freddy wasn't traded for Brandon. He doesn't enter this equation. And I certainly have no evidence that he IS better. Forget the $10m, neither you nor I own the team. $$$ are meaningless to us.

nodiggity59
12-07-2006, 12:52 AM
Floyd won't be better than Freddy next year if for no other reason than Freddy will be starting and Floyd will, if he's lucky, get to be the fifth man in the bullpen, or more likely will be starting down in Charlotte. Where I doubt even then he bests Freddy's numbers.

Freddy will be starting b/c of his contract, not b/c of his performance.

Craig Grebeck
12-07-2006, 12:52 AM
What should Kenny have done MRM? All you do is pick him apart.

Jjav829
12-07-2006, 12:52 AM
"What is Kenny supposed to say to Floyd".

Well, NOTHING, he just traded for him. No way you make that kind of public statement RIGHT AFTER the trade. You haven't even seen the guy in person, yet. What is McCarthy thinking about now?

He's probably thinking, "This shouldn't be too hard since Gavin Floyd sucks."

caulfield12
12-07-2006, 12:52 AM
Floyd won't be better than Freddy next year if for no other reason than Freddy will be starting and Floyd will, if he's lucky, get to be the fifth man in the bullpen, or more likely will be starting down in Charlotte. Where I doubt even then he bests Freddy's numbers.

Did anyone here predict Neal Cotts' 2005 season, or Hermanson's, or Polittes?

Sometimes a quality arm just "gets" it, like Thornton did last year.

MRM
12-07-2006, 12:53 AM
I think that and Kenny's earlier comments that Brandon might pitch in AAA next year is to keep the kid on his toes and hungry for a starting spot. You don't want the kid assuming he's assured of everything before spring training.

That's ridiculous. He was PROMISED he'd be in the rotation this year when they sent him to the pen last year. You don't start playing mind games with him now.

nodiggity59
12-07-2006, 12:53 AM
$$$ are meaningless to us.


:roflmao:

I knew we should have resigned Maggs when he began his decline. We should've done the same and extended Freddy too!

Craig Grebeck
12-07-2006, 12:53 AM
WRONG. Freddy wasn't traded for Brandon. He doesn't enter this equation. And I certainly have no evidence that he IS better. Forget the $10m, neither you nor I own the team. $$$ are meaningless to us.
Yes he does, he replaces him in the rotation.

Thome wasn't traded for Everett, but that doesn't mean he wasn't part of the equation.

You really expect KW to get a top of the line MLB player for a declining, inconsistent, velocity losing rental like Garcia?

spiffie
12-07-2006, 12:54 AM
Freddy will be starting b/c of his contract, not b/c of his performance.
That statement has absolutely no basis in reality. Even last year, in a year where Freddy struggled, he still ended up putting together a season with an ERA that was better than league average.

caulfield12
12-07-2006, 12:54 AM
WRONG. Freddy wasn't traded for Brandon. He doesn't enter this equation. And I certainly have no evidence that he IS better. Forget the $10m, neither you nor I own the team. $$$ are meaningless to us.


Would the 2005 team have won with Ordonez and Lee?

REALLY?

Money has everything to do with it...you can't analyze in a vacuum, this isn't a ROTO league trade.

ilsox7
12-07-2006, 12:54 AM
WRONG. Freddy wasn't traded for Brandon. He doesn't enter this equation. And I certainly have no evidence that he IS better. Forget the $10m, neither you nor I own the team. $$$ are meaningless to us.

Brandon being in the rotation is a direct result of Freddy being traded. If there is no trade, Brandon is not in the rotation. And $$$ certainly does play a role. While it's not my money, the Sox certainly have a budget. Pocketing $10MM goes a long way to adding other pieces tothe puzzle. Evidene of Brandon's potential as a starter was seen in the 2nd half of 2005.

MRM
12-07-2006, 12:54 AM
What should Kenny have done MRM? All you do is pick him apart.

That's funny. Back a few years ago when he WAS getting "picked apart" I defended him. His moves made sense, anyhow. This one makes no sense on it's face.

Domeshot17
12-07-2006, 12:55 AM
If Brandon doesnt win 17 next year, was it a downgrade?

Freddy really was 1 of our 2 best SP's last year.

Ive said it since I first posted this a few hours back, If we make a move to improve the team, and were able to add something for the future, cool. If we made a move strictly because we want to get cheaper and younger, but it does not do much for us, then F it.

And for the record, for this to not be a downgrade, Brandon basically has to win 15-20 and Floyd has to be average out of the pen. IF he isnt dealt beforehand, He will be on the 25, he is out of minor league options, and probably won't clear waivers

that being said goodnight, Ill jump back in this tomorrow when hopefully everyone knows what arm Floyd throws with before proclaiming him the next Nolan Ryan

voodoochile
12-07-2006, 12:56 AM
Great. Tell me how the trade itself upgrades the team.

Frees up some money. Could be the precursor to making a run at any of the big money players mentioned in the trade rumor threads.

If McCarthy is ready to go, it doesn't seriously damage the team, so it might be a wash with money to spend...

nodiggity59
12-07-2006, 12:56 AM
If Brandon doesnt win 17 next year, was it a downgrade?

Freddy really was 1 of our 2 best SP's last year.

Ive said it since I first posted this a few hours back, If we make a move to improve the team, and were able to add something for the future, cool. If we made a move strictly because we want to get cheaper and younger, but it does not do much for us, then F it.

When will people understand that hardly anyone wants Freddy? You can't get great return for your pitcher when NO ONE WANTS HIM CAUSE HE'S WASHED UP!

caulfield12
12-07-2006, 12:56 AM
:roflmao:

I knew we should have resigned Maggs when he began his decline. We should've done the same and extended Freddy too!

If we had kept Thomas and Rowand, we'd for sure have two World Series rings in one decade.

OzzyTrain
12-07-2006, 12:57 AM
I said it last year, give Brandon a chance. As for Freddy, he did have his rough outing but I think after he came up with the new pic ( think it was the spiltter ) he pitched well.

spiffie
12-07-2006, 12:58 AM
Did anyone here predict Neal Cotts' 2005 season, or Hermanson's, or Polittes?

Sometimes a quality arm just "gets" it, like Thornton did last year.
Sometimes a pitcher improves.

Sometimes a pitcher has one really good year and implodes.

Sometimes a pitcher just keeps pitching poorly.

If we don't consider past performance at all in evaluating a guy, then you might as well just throw darts at a board full of names to decide who your roster will be. Gavin Floyd has shown nothing at any advanced level of the minors or in the majors to indicate that he can be a quality pitcher at those levels on a consistent basis. Sure, maybe he'll pan out and be awesome. But it seems like those of us who are not very optimistic are going based on what he has done, and those who think he'll be good are basing their thoughts on what they hope he will do.

OzzyTrain
12-07-2006, 12:59 AM
I think Freddy and his attude played a role in why he is no longer here as well.

MRM
12-07-2006, 12:59 AM
Brandon being in the rotation is a direct result of Freddy being traded. If there is no trade, Brandon is not in the rotation. And $$$ certainly does play a role. While it's not my money, the Sox certainly have a budget. Pocketing $10MM goes a long way to adding other pieces tothe puzzle. Evidene of Brandon's potential as a starter was seen in the 2nd half of 2005.

Except it's not. Kenny IMMEDIATELY said Brandon will be trying to EARN a roster spot, so he STILL might not be in the rotation.

Where are those other pieces going to come from? The Sox problems certainly aren't going to be fixed in free agency, so what difference does that money make? You think they are going to use it to trade for a $10m/yr middle reliever? I don't think so.

The ONLY way the $$$$ argument makes any sense at all is if they really ARE in the process of obtaining Vernon Wells. And the only way Kennys comments about earning the position makes any sense is if Brandon is one of those being traded to get him.

caulfield12
12-07-2006, 12:59 AM
If Brandon doesnt win 17 next year, was it a downgrade?

Freddy really was 1 of our 2 best SP's last year.

Ive said it since I first posted this a few hours back, If we make a move to improve the team, and were able to add something for the future, cool. If we made a move strictly because we want to get cheaper and younger, but it does not do much for us, then F it.

And for the record, for this to not be a downgrade, Brandon basically has to win 15-20 and Floyd has to be average out of the pen. IF he isnt dealt beforehand, He will be on the 25, he is out of minor league options, and probably won't clear waivers

that being said goodnight, Ill jump back in this tomorrow when hopefully everyone knows what arm Floyd throws with before proclaiming him the next Nolan Ryan


Jerry Kutzler, Adam Peterson, Matt Ginter, Danny Wright (remember his high win totals with horrible ERA's?) and Scott Ruffcorn could win 10-12 with this offense.

Seriously, are we more likely to get back to a 3.61 ERA with McCarthy or Garcia?

I'll vote for McCarthy on that score.

TaylorStSox
12-07-2006, 01:00 AM
If Brandon doesnt win 17 next year, was it a downgrade?

Freddy really was 1 of our 2 best SP's last year.

Ive said it since I first posted this a few hours back, If we make a move to improve the team, and were able to add something for the future, cool. If we made a move strictly because we want to get cheaper and younger, but it does not do much for us, then F it.

And for the record, for this to not be a downgrade, Brandon basically has to win 15-20 and Floyd has to be average out of the pen. IF he isnt dealt beforehand, He will be on the 25, he is out of minor league options, and probably won't clear waivers

that being said goodnight, Ill jump back in this tomorrow when hopefully everyone knows what arm Floyd throws with before proclaiming him the next Nolan Ryan


It projects far beyond next year. Freddy was one our 2 best SP last year, but that doesn't mean a whole lot. How does Freddy project next year and in the future. The prognosis is negative IMO.

NonetheLoaiza
12-07-2006, 01:01 AM
This one makes no sense on it's face.

Yes it does. He did what he said he was going to do, and got two pitching prospects for one in the rotation. Pitching is always at a premium, and he got two prospects for a guy who is due to make 10 mill next year. That makes sense to me.

nodiggity59
12-07-2006, 01:01 AM
Gavin Floyd has shown nothing at any advanced level of the minors or in the majors to indicate that he can be a quality pitcher at those levels on a consistent basis. Sure, maybe he'll pan out and be awesome. But it seems like those of us who are not very optimistic are going based on what he has done, and those who think he'll be good are basing their thoughts on what they hope he will do.

Don't you get it? This is why none of us are a GM: we only know what players have done. The best GMs correctly predict who WILL BE good, regardless of statistics or past success. Then, they acquire undervalued players and create overall superior teams than GMs who rip their rosters from last year's head lines.

OzzyTrain
12-07-2006, 01:01 AM
For the people saying Freddy is washed up, how about the games he pitched after he learned a new pitch ? What about that 1 hitter he threw ?

caulfield12
12-07-2006, 01:04 AM
Sometimes a pitcher improves.

Sometimes a pitcher has one really good year and implodes.

Sometimes a pitcher just keeps pitching poorly.

If we don't consider past performance at all in evaluating a guy, then you might as well just throw darts at a board full of names to decide who your roster will be. Gavin Floyd has shown nothing at any advanced level of the minors or in the majors to indicate that he can be a quality pitcher at those levels on a consistent basis. Sure, maybe he'll pan out and be awesome. But it seems like those of us who are not very optimistic are going based on what he has done, and those who think he'll be good are basing their thoughts on what they hope he will do.

What did Matt Thornton show?
Loaiza in the 2-3 years before we had him?
Contreras?

The White Sox have had TONS of scouts and people in the organization looking at Floyd. I'll trust they know what they're doing....KW doesn't operate in a vacuum.

Both Floyd and Gio were undervalued compared to what he thinks their true value is...you can't chase "high returns" from last year without paying through the teeth for it.

How do you think the Twins got D. Reyes, Nathan, Bonser, Liriano, Silva, etc.? Were any of those guys more highly regarded than either Gio or Floyd when those deals were made?

ilsox7
12-07-2006, 01:04 AM
Except it's not. Kenny IMMEDIATELY said Brandon will be trying to EARN a roster spot, so he STILL might not be in the rotation.

Where are those other pieces going to come from? The Sox problems certainly aren't going to be fixed in free agency, so what difference does that money make? You think they are going to use it to trade for a $10m/yr middle reliever? I don't think so.

The ONLY way the $$$$ argument makes any sense at all is if they really ARE in the process of obtaining Vernon Wells. And the only way Kennys comments about earning the position makes any sense is if Brandon is one of those being traded to get him.

KW also IMMEDIATELY said this move paves the way for a very special pitcher:

"But where we are in our evolution, where we are with our ballclub now is such where we needed to create room for what we also knew is a very special pitcher in Brandon McCarthy (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/profile?statsId=7484). We realized that if we're going to have any sort of sustained success, we're going to have to filter in some of the young players, and we think we've acquired two special ones."

Sometimes what people say has a couple of meanings. In this case, it motivates both Brandon and Gavin to show up to spring training ready to pitch.

As for the $$$, hell, it may have already been spent. Or maybe KW has something else up his sleeve that he needs $10MM for. Or maybe he knows next year's FA class is loaded, so $10MM saved now means Vernon Wells via FA. Who knows, but to say $10MM is not a consideration is absurd.

spiffie
12-07-2006, 01:05 AM
Don't you get it? This is why none of us are a GM: we only know what players have done. The best GMs correctly predict who WILL BE good, regardless of statistics or past success. Then, they acquire undervalued players and create overall superior teams than GMs who rip their rosters from last year's head lines.
Oh, you mean the way that Kenny predicted Politte and Cotts and Logan would be great in the pen last year and Anderson would do fine in CF so we wouldn't need any sort of backup for that position? I mean, that has to be what you mean since I'm sure you're saying Kenny is one of the best GM's, and those moves all fall on him. Or do those not count?

voodoochile
12-07-2006, 01:05 AM
Don't you get it? This is why none of us are a GM: we only know what players have done. The best GMs correctly predict who WILL BE good, regardless of statistics or past success. Then, they acquire undervalued players and create overall superior teams than GMs who rip their rosters from last year's head lines.

Keep feeding live arms to Coop and eventually a few of them will pan out. We've already seen it a couple of times.

If nothing else it doesn't seriously weaken the club and it frees up money.

I trust KW until he builds a team that competes for worst record in the league. I owe him that much...

caulfield12
12-07-2006, 01:06 AM
For the people saying Freddy is washed up, how about the games he pitched after he learned a new pitch ? What about that 1 hitter he threw ?


What about Felix Diaz pitching well against the Cubs, Danny Wright posting 15 wins or Arnie Munoz...umm...well, every dog has his day.

MRM
12-07-2006, 01:07 AM
When will people understand that hardly anyone wants Freddy? You can't get great return for your pitcher when NO ONE WANTS HIM CAUSE HE'S WASHED UP!

Wow...just WOW. Is it possible to make a more clueless claim than this one?

30 years old, 216 inning pitched, 4.53ERA, 135/48 SO/BB.

THATS Washed up? Hate to break this to ya, but those are the numbers of a very good pitcher entering him PRIME in this day and age.

Chisox003
12-07-2006, 01:08 AM
Oh, you mean the way that Kenny predicted Politte and Cotts and Logan would be great in the pen last year and Anderson would do fine in CF so we wouldn't need any sort of backup for that position? I mean, that has to be what you mean since I'm sure you're saying Kenny is one of the best GM's, and those moves all fall on him. Or do those not count?
Did he really predict any of them would be "great"? Maybe he thought they'd be good....?

I'm sure if he had the ability to see into the future, as you're implying, he would've made moves sooner. Hindsight is funny like that.

Step back from the ledge dude, the trade was made 3 hours ago. Relax, there's a long way to go this offseason. God some of you people take over reacting to a new level.

caulfield12
12-07-2006, 01:09 AM
Wow...just WOW. Is it possible to make a more clueless claim than this one?

30 years old, 216 inning pitched, 4.53ERA, 135/48 SO/BB.

THATS Washed up? Hate to break this to ya, but those are the numbers of a very good pitcher entering him PRIME in this day and age.


If that pitcher was Garland and not Garcia, sure.

Look at his IP totals...Garcia is the modern day equivalent of Neal Anderson after taking 35 carries per game for too many seasons. His arm is shot...he's looking more like Wilson Alvarez than a Cy Young winner.

patbooyah
12-07-2006, 01:10 AM
Wow...just WOW. Is it possible to make a more clueless claim than this one?

30 years old, 216 inning pitched, 4.53ERA, 135/48 SO/BB.

THATS Washed up? Hate to break this to ya, but those are the numbers of a very good pitcher entering him PRIME in this day and age.

prime? you have as much right to love freddy as the next guy, but to say he's entering his prime? and PRIME at that? wow.

does a guy usually post his worst career ERA right before entering his prime?

MRM
12-07-2006, 01:10 AM
KW also IMMEDIATELY said this move paves the way for a very special pitcher:



Sometimes what people say has a couple of meanings. In this case, it motivates both Brandon and Gavin to show up to spring training ready to pitch.

As for the $$$, hell, it may have already been spent. Or maybe KW has something else up his sleeve that he needs $10MM for. Or maybe he knows next year's FA class is loaded, so $10MM saved now means Vernon Wells via FA. Who knows, but to say $10MM is not a consideration is absurd.

The $$ damn sure have nothing to do with next year. They have a budget every year, it's not like you just carry over this years excess to next year. Doesn't work that way in any business I've ever seen.

crazyozzie02
12-07-2006, 01:11 AM
rotoworld just stated that even if kenny wanted to turn around and trade him, they would have to wait until at least tomorrow night becasue he is not on the 40-man roster and cant be traded until the rule-5 draft is completed

MRM
12-07-2006, 01:11 AM
prime? you have as much right to love freddy as the next guy, but to say he's entering his prime? and PRIME at that? wow.

At age 30? Absolutely he's in his prime. This isn't 1975 ya know.

nodiggity59
12-07-2006, 01:12 AM
Oh, you mean the way that Kenny predicted Politte and Cotts and Logan would be great in the pen last year and Anderson would do fine in CF so we wouldn't need any sort of backup for that position? I mean, that has to be what you mean since I'm sure you're saying Kenny is one of the best GM's, and those moves all fall on him. Or do those not count?

Of course they count, everything does, but you have to grant that KW is especially good at making these decisions, given the fact that the 2005 team was full of cast offs and guys coming off down years or, worse, guys who had never even had good years.

Look around the league; the teams that go with the names and past glory get their asses handed to them, especially when they pay for said players when they could replace that production with league minimum guys.

Also, if anybody really thinks Freddy will have any kind of sustained success with an 88mph fastball and a new splitter, then they need to look at what he does after he faces the whole league with that pitch once. He won't look so laid back then.

patbooyah
12-07-2006, 01:13 AM
At age 30? Absolutely he's in his prime. This isn't 1975 ya know.

how do you explain the fact that he's being forced to learn new pitches to deal with his diminished velocity?

nodiggity59
12-07-2006, 01:16 AM
Wow...just WOW. Is it possible to make a more clueless claim than this one?

30 years old, 216 inning pitched, 4.53ERA, 135/48 SO/BB.

THATS Washed up? Hate to break this to ya, but those are the numbers of a very good pitcher entering him PRIME in this day and age.

Check his 07 stats. His career numbers clearly show a degeneration of his skills, to say nothing of the fact that it's plain to anyone watching the games that since he came to the Sox, FG has been slowly morphing into a 16 inch softball pitcher.

Plus, if FG was soooo great, then someone would've made KW an offer he couldn't refuse and we'd be looking at a landslide trade in our favor for a great SP.

ilsox7
12-07-2006, 01:16 AM
The $$ damn sure have nothing to do with next year. They have a budget every year, it's not like you just carry over this years excess to next year. Doesn't work that way in any business I've ever seen.

Odd, it works that way in EVERY business I have seen. Excess profits are often given to shareholders in the form of dividends. Or they are reinvested in the business to provide future earnings. Or sometimes, when you know you will have a windfall several months down the line, you are more willing to spend money now (aka KW could extend Garland last spring knowing $10MM would be coming off the books fromeither MB, FG, or JV).

While fiscal calendars are a nice tool of measurement for investors and Wall Street, business are a continuing, fluid operation. What you do one year most certainly impacts the next year. Every year is not a new beginning.

patbooyah
12-07-2006, 01:16 AM
I think Freddy and his attitude played a role in why he is no longer here as well.

i agree wholeheartedly. when i read this about this trade my first thought was that the average time of sox games was going to plummet and that we won't have to deal with a portly venezuelan stomping around on the mound anymore.

MRM
12-07-2006, 01:16 AM
how do you explain the fact that he's being forced to learn new pitches to deal with his diminished velocity?

Please show me where the "diminished velocity" has showed up in his stats. His fastball was slightly down early in the year, much closer to normal late in the year. So what? It's not like he was a fireballer who lost his fastball.

SABRSox
12-07-2006, 01:18 AM
Please show me where the "diminished velocity" has showed up in his stats. His fastball was slightly down early in the year, much closer to normal late in the year. So what? It's not like he was a fireballer who lost his fastball.

He lost significant velocity, and struggled for the first half of the season as he learned to deal with that.

patbooyah
12-07-2006, 01:19 AM
Please show me where the "diminished velocity" has showed up in his stats. His fastball was slightly down early in the year, much closer to normal late in the year. So what? It's not like he was a fireballer who lost his fastball.

oh, god. now you're asking me to invent a "diminished velocity" stat?

how about his ERA that went up almost a full point?

MRM
12-07-2006, 01:19 AM
Odd, it works that way in EVERY business I have seen. Excess profits are often given to shareholders in the form of dividends.

Really? so season ticket holders are getting a rebate as a result of the trade? Why didn't you say so?

As for the rest of it, not even close. They aren't "saving" money for next year, you can be absolutely certain of that. What is spent this year will NOT affect next years budget in the least. Nor should it.

spiffie
12-07-2006, 01:20 AM
What did Matt Thornton show?
Loaiza in the 2-3 years before we had him?
Contreras?

The White Sox have had TONS of scouts and people in the organization looking at Floyd. I'll trust they know what they're doing....KW doesn't operate in a vacuum.

Both Floyd and Gio were undervalued compared to what he thinks their true value is...you can't chase "high returns" from last year without paying through the teeth for it.

How do you think the Twins got D. Reyes, Nathan, Bonser, Liriano, Silva, etc.? Were any of those guys more highly regarded than either Gio or Floyd when those deals were made?
To answer these:
Thorton showed a 96 MPH fastball and massive K/9 numbers. He also was traded for a busted prospect in Joe Borchard.

Esteban Loaiza showed nothing much before hand, had one magical year, and promptly fell back into the mediocrity in which he has spent his career. I suppose we can hope for Floyd to catch lightning in a bottle once.

Jose Contreras had a long track record of success in international competition.

As for the Twins, Nathan was very highly regarded when they traded for him, as the year before he had put up a 2.96 ERA for the Giants. Nathan had succeeded in the majors, so yes, he was more highly regarded than either of our pickups. Liriano had put up some impressive numbers in the low minors, and was basically picked up purely on potential, since he had never pitched beyond A ball. And Bonser has put up a K/9 rate that was very impressive in the minors when the Twins picked him up. Those guys though were all crap shoots, except maybe Nathan, because we hadn't seen anything from them. They were pickups based purely on stuff. With Floyd everything out there seems to indicate that he has a mediocre fastball which has lost speed due to injury and a big curve ball that people have learned to lay off of. I don't mind trading for prospects, I just see nothing in Floyd that excites me. He looks like at best a middle relief guy. He's never shown anything in his peripherals at any level that indicates there's anything special about him that just has yet to be tapped. I hope I'm wrong. Maybe Don Cooper saw film of him showing that if he just picks his elbow up 1mm when he throws suddenly he'll be unstoppable. That would be spectacular.

caulfield12
12-07-2006, 01:24 AM
Please show me where the "diminished velocity" has showed up in his stats. His fastball was slightly down early in the year, much closer to normal late in the year. So what? It's not like he was a fireballer who lost his fastball.


Please look at his stat lines from the beginning of his career in Seattle, lpaying particular attention to K/9IP numbers, K's as well as ERA's.

Garcia consistently threw 93-96 MPH when he came up.

Last year, he was 85-91, with a couple of 92's all season.

That's a significant difference.

ilsox7
12-07-2006, 01:25 AM
Really? so season ticket holders are getting a rebate as a result of the trade? Why didn't you say so?

As for the rest of it, not even close. They aren't "saving" money for next year, you can be absolutely certain of that. What is spent this year will NOT affect next years budget in the least. Nor should it.

Honestly, if you don't think what a business does one year impacts what it will do the next year or years, then I am not sure what to say. It's business at its most basic.

The $10MM has either already been spent, will be spent for 2007, or will bespent at a future date. It is very possible KW would NOT have signed Garland long-term if he knew he wouldn't be getting rid of $10MM this off season. It's also very possible that this money could be reinvested in scouting, players for 2007, or other areas beyond that. The White Sox are a business. Just b/c this $10MM is not immediately spent on another player does not mean it won't be spent elsewhere or hasn't already been spent. Transactions are interrelated and to view them in a vacuum is to do so without logic on your side.

And to put this inthe realm of baseball, look at the Phillies trade of Abreau in July. That deal was made with the express intent of getting rid of his contract so that money could be spent elsewhere going forward. And that is EXACTLY what they are doing.

MRM
12-07-2006, 01:26 AM
oh, god. now you're asking me to invent a "diminished velocity" stat?

how about his ERA that went up almost a full point?

Why not? Stats get invented to support ones position in baseball all the time :D:

His ERA was STILL a VERY respectable 4.54 in the A.L. All of the measurables were quite good for a workhorse. SO/BB, IP, etc.

What does 4.54 translate into today N.L.? 3.50? Certainly sub 4.00.

DachnoPiitu
12-07-2006, 01:26 AM
Freddy Garcia
I love you and I miss you:whiner:
If I recall correct, you were one of the only decent things to come out of the all-star break for the White Sox
I will never forget:gulp:
Thank you

P.S... KENNY WILLIAMS!!!!!! AAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH:angry:

HotelWhiteSox
12-07-2006, 01:27 AM
Now I love BMac, don't think his stats last year are indictive of what he really gives us, and thought him in the bullpen/Vazquez move blocking him was a bad idea, but how come it's okay to use Freddy's ERA to rate and forecast him for next year but McCarthy being a wash or upgrade is pretty much universally assumed? Okay, other variables, like the pitching from the pen is completely different than from the rotation, but that isn't the guaranteed reason, some pitchers have no problem with that and how do we know it's not just some mechanics issue (what I heard many imply) like when he first came up and got lit up. How about Freddy's variables? He sucked early and came in out of shape, I think those are related, sure that is a dig at him, but he finished strong, velocity looked to be going back to form, and came up with a new pitch that made him our best starter in that period. While we're talking variables, we forget about that damn WBC which gave him a weird spring, and where many pitchers (no not all, but more than a few) who participated either finished the season worse than their career average or got hurt.

There's the 'precursor to a bigger move' argument. How likely an important deal that would need to free up money wouldn't involve one of our starters? Would we give up another one and go back to the pre05 form? Freed up money always help, but there's nothing on the free agent market worth looking twice at this year, and a big deal doesn't seem likely, but to be honest I have no clue.

Also have to be honest I've never seen any of the minor leaguers mentioned actually pitch, can only go by stats, scouting reports, and other fans' accounts. It sounds like Floyd is their Borchard, definately a project, who knows could be a Thornton like turnaround, but Coop is only human, our pitching had issues last year. Gio sounds like he was the main piece of this puzzle. But I'm never too big on prospects, how many of our pitchers were deemed the sure thing a year before being brought in to fill our famous #5 hole and were never seen from again? But Gio sounds better than that, that's good. Still though, with some of the names that were going around rumored with one of our pitchers, ughh, just wish Kenny would have waited as we were flexible and had plenty of time. The trade deadline didn't end at these meetings, and teams are likely to be more desperate as we go on. The worst thing that could happen is we would have kept all our starters, (I wouldn't have been a fan of holding back McCarthy, but I might put him ahead of some of our other guys instead and he has a lot of baseball in front of him, we would have an injury insurance policy), then we lose Freddy for a draft pick.



I think Freddy and his attude played a role in why he is no longer here as well.

Could be, there's also a good chance there's something we don't know. Don't think the partying is a big issue, but maybe the showing up of teammates on the mound and probably some preparation/commitment issues.

caulfield12
12-07-2006, 01:29 AM
To answer these:
Thorton showed a 96 MPH fastball and massive K/9 numbers. He also was traded for a busted prospect in Joe Borchard.

Esteban Loaiza showed nothing much before hand, had one magical year, and promptly fell back into the mediocrity in which he has spent his career. I suppose we can hope for Floyd to catch lightning in a bottle once.

Jose Contreras had a long track record of success in international competition.

As for the Twins, Nathan was very highly regarded when they traded for him, as the year before he had put up a 2.96 ERA for the Giants. Nathan had succeeded in the majors, so yes, he was more highly regarded than either of our pickups. Liriano had put up some impressive numbers in the low minors, and was basically picked up purely on potential, since he had never pitched beyond A ball. And Bonser has put up a K/9 rate that was very impressive in the minors when the Twins picked him up. Those guys though were all crap shoots, except maybe Nathan, because we hadn't seen anything from them. They were pickups based purely on stuff. With Floyd everything out there seems to indicate that he has a mediocre fastball which has lost speed due to injury and a big curve ball that people have learned to lay off of. I don't mind trading for prospects, I just see nothing in Floyd that excites me. He looks like at best a middle relief guy. He's never shown anything in his peripherals at any level that indicates there's anything special about him that just has yet to be tapped. I hope I'm wrong. Maybe Don Cooper saw film of him showing that if he just picks his elbow up 1mm when he throws suddenly he'll be unstoppable. That would be spectacular.

In 1999 and 2000, Nathan struggled as a starter and was relegated to the pen. Where you have to give the Twins credit is for identifying his potential to leap from a set-up guy to bigtime closer. But he wasn't considered a "top prospect" either at the time of that trade. Bonser was a pretty high draft pick but had also had his share of struggles.

UserNameBlank
12-07-2006, 01:29 AM
To answer these:
Thorton showed a 96 MPH fastball and massive K/9 numbers. He also was traded for a busted prospect in Joe Borchard.

Esteban Loaiza showed nothing much before hand, had one magical year, and promptly fell back into the mediocrity in which he has spent his career. I suppose we can hope for Floyd to catch lightning in a bottle once.

Jose Contreras had a long track record of success in international competition.

As for the Twins, Nathan was very highly regarded when they traded for him, as the year before he had put up a 2.96 ERA for the Giants. Nathan had succeeded in the majors, so yes, he was more highly regarded than either of our pickups. Liriano had put up some impressive numbers in the low minors, and was basically picked up purely on potential, since he had never pitched beyond A ball. And Bonser has put up a K/9 rate that was very impressive in the minors when the Twins picked him up. Those guys though were all crap shoots, except maybe Nathan, because we hadn't seen anything from them. They were pickups based purely on stuff. With Floyd everything out there seems to indicate that he has a mediocre fastball which has lost speed due to injury and a big curve ball that people have learned to lay off of. I don't mind trading for prospects, I just see nothing in Floyd that excites me. He looks like at best a middle relief guy. He's never shown anything in his peripherals at any level that indicates there's anything special about him that just has yet to be tapped. I hope I'm wrong. Maybe Don Cooper saw film of him showing that if he just picks his elbow up 1mm when he throws suddenly he'll be unstoppable. That would be spectacular.

I have to agree with all this. I don't see much in Floyd either, and I find it strange that KW couldn't have at least picked up another prospect in the deal, but who knows? Maybe Coop thinks he can turn this guy around. I sure hope so.

BTW, for anyone who saw Gio pitch last year, how is he coming along?

caulfield12
12-07-2006, 01:30 AM
Why not? Stats get invented to support ones position in baseball all the time :D:

His ERA was STILL a VERY respectable 4.54 in the A.L. All of the measurables were quite good for a workhorse. SO/BB, IP, etc.

What does 4.54 translate into today N.L.? 3.50? Certainly sub 4.00.

For a power pitcher, a K/IP ratio nearing 4.5 (nearing Jon Garland or James Baldwin territory) is not the thing you really want to see.

caulfield12
12-07-2006, 01:32 AM
To answer these:
Thorton showed a 96 MPH fastball and massive K/9 numbers. He also was traded for a busted prospect in Joe Borchard.

Esteban Loaiza showed nothing much before hand, had one magical year, and promptly fell back into the mediocrity in which he has spent his career. I suppose we can hope for Floyd to catch lightning in a bottle once.

Jose Contreras had a long track record of success in international competition.

As for the Twins, Nathan was very highly regarded when they traded for him, as the year before he had put up a 2.96 ERA for the Giants. Nathan had succeeded in the majors, so yes, he was more highly regarded than either of our pickups. Liriano had put up some impressive numbers in the low minors, and was basically picked up purely on potential, since he had never pitched beyond A ball. And Bonser has put up a K/9 rate that was very impressive in the minors when the Twins picked him up. Those guys though were all crap shoots, except maybe Nathan, because we hadn't seen anything from them. They were pickups based purely on stuff. With Floyd everything out there seems to indicate that he has a mediocre fastball which has lost speed due to injury and a big curve ball that people have learned to lay off of. I don't mind trading for prospects, I just see nothing in Floyd that excites me. He looks like at best a middle relief guy. He's never shown anything in his peripherals at any level that indicates there's anything special about him that just has yet to be tapped. I hope I'm wrong. Maybe Don Cooper saw film of him showing that if he just picks his elbow up 1mm when he throws suddenly he'll be unstoppable. That would be spectacular.

Does anyone know the exact nature or status of his velocity drop?

Was it a Kris Honel like mystery? Or similar to Garcia and Buehlre this year?

Did he ever have surgery?

Lip Man 1
12-07-2006, 01:32 AM
I just got back from a road trip basketball game (I do play by play for a local high school) and found out about this.

I am absolutely stunned.

After all this build up about 'how pitching is at a premium' the Sox deal a proven 200 inning guy and a consistent double figure winner for Gavin ****in Floyd and a player to be named later?

***?????

I'm at a loss for words over this.

Not Garcia for Floyd and Rowand...

Not Garcia for Floyd and Rollins...

But Garcia for Floyd and a minor league pitcher the Sox thought so little of they dealt him last off season.

Unfrigginbelieveable.

Lip

SluggersAway
12-07-2006, 01:33 AM
For a power pitcher, a K/IP ratio nearing 4.5 (nearing Jon Garland or James Baldwin territory) is not the thing you really want to see.

FLOYD and GIO is what we got in return! Keep it in perspective.

MRM
12-07-2006, 01:35 AM
Honestly, if you don't think what a business does one year impacts what it will do the next year or years, then I am not sure what to say. It's business at its most basic.

The $10MM has either already been spent, will be spent for 2007, or will bespent at a future date. It is very possible KW would NOT have signed Garland long-term if he knew he wouldn't be getting rid of $10MM this off season. It's also very possible that this money could be reinvested in scouting, players for 2007, or other areas beyond that. The White Sox are a business. Just b/c this $10MM is not immediately spent on another player does not mean it won't be spent elsewhere or hasn't already been spent. Transactions are interrelated and to view them in a vacuum is to do so without logic on your side.

And to put this inthe realm of baseball, look at the Phillies trade of Abreau in July. That deal was made with the express intent of getting rid of his contract so that money could be spent elsewhere going forward. And that is EXACTLY what they are doing.

Friend, trust me, you don't need to explain basic business to me. I own 4 of them.

Where BASEBALL is concerned there is a budget SOLELY for player salaries that has NOTHING to do with any of the crap you are talking about. They don't free up PLAYER $$$ to put into other areas of the organization. It simply doesn't work that way. A certain % of operating income is "invested" in each area of the operation. THAT is basic business.

And NO, simply coming in under PLAYER budget this year does NOT mean they get to carry that money over next year. In fact, it would go against every business principle there is.

SluggersAway
12-07-2006, 01:40 AM
I am absolutely stunned.

After all this build up about 'how pitching is at a premium' the Sox deal a proven 200 inning guy and a consistent double figure winner for Gavin ****in Floyd and a player to be named later?

***?????

I'm at a loss for words over this...

Unfrigginbelieveable.

Lip

To drown your misery, read Phil Rogers on the Sox Will Gamble on Youth (http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/cs-061206rogers,1,1443212.column?coll=cs-home-headlines).

MRM
12-07-2006, 01:42 AM
I just got back from a road trip basketball game (I do play by play for a local high school) and found out about this.

I am absolutely stunned.

After all this build up about 'how pitching is at a premium' the Sox deal a proven 200 inning guy and a consistent double figure winner for Gavin ****in Floyd and a player to be named later?

***?????

I'm at a loss for words over this.

Not Garcia for Floyd and Rowand...

Not Garcia for Floyd and Rollins...

But Garcia for Gavin and a minor league pitcher the Sox thought so little of they dealt him last off season.

Unfrigginbelieveable.

Lip

but...but...it's getting justified in here left and right.

Lip Man 1
12-07-2006, 01:45 AM
Sluggers:

I did and immediately got sick to my stomach.

I remember the other times the Sox went with 'youth'....the late 80's, the late 90's and they didn't turn out so well did they?

I don't know what else to say.

I hope to God Rogers is wrong....the Sox seemed to have it all going for them after 2005 and now this is a possibility?

I'll take a wait and see attitude but mark my words if after twenty years of saying 'come out and we'll spend' they pull this BS I'm going to call them out on it.

Lip

MRM
12-07-2006, 01:54 AM
To drown your misery, read Phil Rogers on the Sox Will Gamble on Youth (http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/cs-061206rogers,1,1443212.column?coll=cs-home-headlines).

Did you really HAVE to post that depressing story? :D:

SluggersAway
12-07-2006, 01:55 AM
Sluggers:

I don't know what else to say.

I hope to God Rogers is wrong....the Sox seemed to have it all going for them after 2005 and now this is a possibility?

I'll take a wait and see attitude but mark my words if after twenty years of saying 'come out and we'll spend' they pull this BS I'm going to call them out on it.

Lip

I definitely agree. I can't say much more or I may also get a lil sick.

May brighter days be around the corner...

JB98
12-07-2006, 01:58 AM
Count me in the group that hopes Rogers is talking out his ass. This trade is just ****ing horrible. ****ing horrible by any standard. You would think a club that had 97 percent renewal by its season-ticket holders wouldn't make a deal for purposes of dumping salary, but it's certainly possible that's what this is.

If he deals either Contreras or Garland for purposes of putting BOTH McCarthy and Floyd in the rotation, I'm going to be throwing things ****ing mad. I'm already pretty damn pissed off.

SluggersAway
12-07-2006, 01:58 AM
Did you really HAVE to post that depressing story? :D:

Sorry, I like to deal with reality and face adversity head on.

I know you are with me.

ondafarm
12-07-2006, 01:59 AM
Well, I am not surprised that Garcia was dealt.

He is expensive and a one year to free agency guy.

He also really dug himself a hole by announcing how hard it was to get up for the lesser teams in the league. Had he gotten up for most of the games in May, June and July then by August and September, the Sox would be in the playoffs, not 3rd place.

Garcia never showed much interest in keeping guys from stealing. Maybe he never had a great move, maybe never even a good one, but every major league pitcher needs to at least work at doing that. All the opposition knew they could run at will on him.

As for the Sox acquiring pitching, with Coop, I think he's earned a bit of leeway when it comes to acquiring guys. What he did with Thornton verges on a miracle. The Phillies all say that Gavin needed a change of venue. I think he will do long relief this year and then be in the rotation in 2008. The Sox will then have a comparitively cheap, but really solid rotation of Garland, McCarthy, Haeger, Gavin and either Buehrle or Vazquez.

ondafarm
12-07-2006, 02:01 AM
The more I see of Rogers, the less I think of his writing. He blows more smoke than most steel mills.

ilsox7
12-07-2006, 02:10 AM
And NO, simply coming in under PLAYER budget this year does NOT mean they get to carry that money over next year. In fact, it would go against every business principle there is.

Then answer me these three questions:

1. Why do businesses often reinvest profits in one form or another (R&D, executive bonuses, ad campaigns, etc) with the expectation of future earnings in return?

2. Why did the Phillies just trade away a big contract in July and then go out and spend A LOT of money in December? Do you honestly think the would have signed Eaton and added Freddy if they had not freed up money from trading Abreau? Or how about the White Sox two years ago? They did the same exact thing.

3. If you planned today to sell one of your comapny's assets 9 months from now, would you not have a plan in place to spend/invest that money elsewhere?

Where BASEBALL is concerned there is a budget SOLELY for player salaries that has NOTHING to do with any of the crap you are talking about. They don't free up PLAYER $$$ to put into other areas of the organization. It simply doesn't work that way. A certain % of operating income is "invested" in each area of the operation. THAT is basic business.

KW and JR are on the record saying that when the opportunity to sign Iguchi came about 2 years ago, they went around to each department in the organization (Brooks was specifically mentioned) to adjust budgets to find an extra million dollars. If the Sox now think that some MLB player salary may be worth investing in the scouting system, such a theory would fall under the same principle as the Iguchi signing.

getonbckthr
12-07-2006, 02:11 AM
This year if we add no impact guys we would have saved 10 million. Sure Freddy would have been off the books after next season but he would have gotten the 10 mllion still. Instead Kenny gets to stick the 10 million into his pocket for the 08 year and who knows that extra 10 million we saved could be the difference of signing someone or losing someone to another team. Over a 5 year contract thats 2 million a year. Lets say in 07 Dye explodes again and gets a really big payday. Perhaps Kenny gets into the bidding for Vernon Wells. Perhaps we are willing to give him 75 million over 5 years and another team comes back with say 78 over 5 years, KW could reach back to the 10 million he saved and come back over the top and offer 85 over 5 years. Thats 1 scenario. Another is resigning Crede or Burls. We will have the 10 million we saved this season on potentially and probable similar results going from Freddy to Brandon.

Lip Man 1
12-07-2006, 02:11 AM
Onda:

Well Kenny Williams has earned the right to get the benefit of the doubt...he's earned that right after the World Series crown.

But... if the organization does go down the road that Rogers describes as possible, especially after telling fans for years, 'come out and we'll spend,' they won't be able to draw flies at U.S. Cellular Field if they spread garbage on the warning track.

Frankly I'm getting flashbacks to the 'bad old days' that I hoped were finally gone...you remember...things like threatening to move the franchise, trying to break the union costing the team a chance at a World Series, the White Flag Trade....small insignificant things...

It's late and I think the smart course of action is to wait and see what if anything happens over the next few days, weeks.

But if Boone Logan, Charlie Haegar and other stiffs are taking up spots on the roster, it will in my opinion show Rogers may not be so far off after all.

There's an old saying, 'a leopard can't change his spots...'

Time will tell.

Lip

pagansoxfan
12-07-2006, 02:15 AM
either kw drank a few too many @ roxy or taboo, or this is the start of something horrible. i hope rogers is dead wrong, if not, this will make sportsvision seem to not be the worst move this ownership ever made. that is saying something. the sox had the momentum churning in their favor. lip is right big time. for years we heared "fill up the park and we'll put it into the club." if it turns out ownership decides to pull some bs, you won't see me anywhere near the cell as long as the current ownership is in place. i'm no bandwagon jerk either. i've been going to games EVERY season since i was 5. (82). you would think after we filled that park, ownership would want to keep it filled. this dang well better be a setup for another trade!

SluggersAway
12-07-2006, 02:16 AM
I love Coop, but for all the so-called "miracles" he has turned out you'd think the Pope would be knocking down his door.

The Sox have had some good pitchers come through, some mediocre pitchers trotted out, and some god-awful arms throw to home plate. Sometimes they reach beyond their potential and sometimes they don't. I don't have to list all the names of under performing arms in the last few years, but please enough with Coop as the Miracle Worker (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Miracle_Worker) that role belongs to Annie Sullivan.

The Coop Kool-Aid around here sometimes seems like 200 proof.

getonbckthr
12-07-2006, 02:19 AM
Onda:

Well Kenny Williams has earned the right to get the benefit of the doubt...he's earned that right after the World Series crown.

But... if the organization does go down the road that Rogers describes as possible, especially after telling fans for years, 'come out and we'll spend,' they won't be able to draw flies at U.S. Cellular Field if they spread garbage on the warning track.

Frankly I'm getting flashbacks to the 'bad old days' that I hoped were finally gone...you remember...things like threatening to move the franchise, trying to break the union costing the team a chance at a World Series, the White Flag Trade....small insignificant things...

It's late and I think the smart course of action is to wait and see what if anything happens over the next few days, weeks.

But if Boone Logan, Charlie Haegar and other stiffs are taking up spots on the roster, it will in my opinion show Rogers may not be so far off after all.

There's an old saying, 'a leopard can't change his spots...'

Time will tell.

Lip
The thing is though unless you are Boston or the Yanks every team will eventually go through a period where you will go young and suffer some hard seasons. In a way I wouldn't mind a year or two of rebuilding. We can go balls out with our vets and maybe win a title in 07 and have question marks beyond or we can make a move like today, still be solid enough to compete this year but also be prepared for the future. It would be nice to win the Series in 07, but in my eyes I would rather use 07 to be a contender through 2011.

UserNameBlank
12-07-2006, 02:20 AM
Onda:

Well Kenny Williams has earned the right to get the benefit of the doubt...he's earned that right after the World Series crown.

But... if the organization does go down the road that Rogers describes as possible, especially after telling fans for years, 'come out and we'll spend,' they won't be able to draw flies at U.S. Cellular Field if they spread garbage on the warning track.

Frankly I'm getting flashbacks to the 'bad old days' that I hoped were finally gone...you remember...things like threatening to move the franchise, trying to break the union costing the team a chance at a World Series, the White Flag Trade....small insignificant things...

It's late and I think the smart course of action is to wait and see what if anything happens over the next few days, weeks.

But if Boone Logan, Charlie Haegar and other stiffs are taking up spots on the roster, it will in my opinion show Rogers may not be so far off after all.

Time will tell.

Lip

One comment:

If KW would have gotten Rowand, Floyd, and Gio for Garcia I would have considered that a nice return, and I think a lot of other people would have too. I doubt that article is written and I think the trade is looked at as a good one for the Sox.

The thing is though, if that had occurred, besides setting up an Anderson trade and adding Rowand's salary to the books, nothing at all would be different. Gio would still start in the minors and Gavin would still compete with McCarthy. I just don't see why anyone would think that this trade signals a major overhaul.

SluggersAway
12-07-2006, 02:21 AM
It would be nice to win the Series in 07, but in my eyes I would rather use 07 to be a contender through 2011.

Just like the Marlins did.

Lip Man 1
12-07-2006, 02:22 AM
Geton:

Answer me this...assuming the Sox continue to draw 2.5 to 3 million fans and based on the ownerships comments for twenty years about 'come out and we'll spend...' WHY can't the White Sox in the 3rd largest market in the country have a payroll at 100 million or slightly more every season?

That's not Yankee money, that's not Red Sox money, that's not Dodgers or Cubs or Mets money is it?

If the Cardinals, Astros, Braves and SEATTLE MARINERS for God's sake, can for years spend that kind of money, why can't the White Sox?

Lip

Blueprint1
12-07-2006, 02:25 AM
Well, I for one thought we were going to get much more for Garcia. The money everyone else is throwing at not so great pitching is crazy. I figured he would be the pitcher to go because of his contract status. I have a feeling that this trade is just the first step toward another bigger deal. I think we had to free up that ten million for another reason. If you read what Kenny says he basically says that this is the first step.

Lip Man 1
12-07-2006, 02:26 AM
User:

Perhaps because of what it implies. Let's not even consider Rogers' column...just look at it on the surface.

Just yesterday on Comcast Sports, Kenny was talking about the contracts and the market. That was YESTERDAY... now today he trades a consistent double figure winner and a 200 innings guy for another 'project' and a minor league pitcher thought of so little by the same G.M. just a year earlier that he was traded.

AND THIS IS IN A MARKET WHERE PITCHING IS AT A PREMIUM RIGHT? You can't tell me someone out there wasn't willing to offer more for Garcia then what the Sox got, but perhaps (and this is just a guess) the players they were offering in return wouldn't have 'cut' the team salary as much as some wanted.

See what I mean?

Lip

SluggersAway
12-07-2006, 02:27 AM
If the Cardinals and Astros and Braves can for years spend that kind of money, why can't the White Sox?

Lip

Because Jerry has his NBA rings, and now his MLB ring and he isn't like Bob Kraft, so he doesn't want to give a ring to Vladimir Putin (wish I could put this in teal).

getonbckthr
12-07-2006, 02:28 AM
Geton:

Answer me this...assuming the Sox continue to draw 2.5 to 3 million fans and based on the ownerships comments for twenty years about 'come out and we'll spend...' WHY can't the White Sox in the 3rd largest market in the country have a payroll at 100 million or slightly more every season?

That's not Yankee money, that's not Red Sox money, that's not Dodgers or Cubs or Mets money is it?

If the Cardinals and Astros and Braves can for years spend that kind of money, why can't the White Sox?

Lip
Why should we give a 31 yr old pitcher 10 million dollars when we have a 23 yr old who will finish with a similar if not better ERA for 9.5 million dollars less? Therefor allowing us to have that 9.5 million to better the team elsewhere. What has spending big money done for the Yanks or Red Sox? Sure they make the playoffs but thats it. It's not how much money you spend its how you spend it and how you build your team.

Unregistered
12-07-2006, 02:28 AM
User:

Perhaps because of what it implies. Let's not even consider Rogers' column...just look at it on the surface.

Just yesterday on Comcast Sports, Kenny was talking about the contracts and the market. That was YESTERDAY... now today he trades a consistent double figure winner and a 200 innings guy for another 'project' and a minor league pitcher thought of so little by the same G.M. just a year earlier that he was traded.

AND THIS IS IN A MARKET WHERE PITCHING IS AT A PREMIUM RIGHT? You can't tell me someone out there wasn't willing to offer more for Garcia then what the Sox got, but perhaps (and this is just a guess) that the players they were offering in return wouldn't have 'cut' the team salary as much as some wanted.

See what I mean?

Lip

Jesus, Lip. You really know how to bring the party down. Hopefully you'll be proven wrong in the near future... :(:

getonbckthr
12-07-2006, 02:30 AM
Just like the Marlins did.
How many World Series have the Marlins won since 1993? How many have Chicago won since 1906 ( we have 2 teams mind you)?

Lip Man 1
12-07-2006, 02:33 AM
Geton:

I assume your talking about McCarthy and not Floyd correct? There's an old saying 'a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush...'

We'll see.

Unregistered:

Believe me I hope I'm wrong as well...VERY WRONG... because if I'm right....we'll let's not even go there M'kay?

Like I said I saw Williams talking about the market yesterday on Comcast and he didn't like it one bit. He seemed disgusted and frustrated but that's simply my impression watching the video.

To use one of Kenny's favorite sayings, 'it is what it is...' If that's the way the market is going or going to be for the future due to the massive increases in revenue for the owners, you either pay the piper or get out.

We'll just have to wait and see what happens.

Lip

Trav
12-07-2006, 02:34 AM
Lip, I really hope you are wrong but I'm getting the same vibe as you are.

At least there will be good seats available...:(:

UserNameBlank
12-07-2006, 02:37 AM
User:

Perhaps because of what it implies. Let's not even consider Rogers' column...just look at it on the surface.

Just yesterday on Comcast Sports, Kenny was talking about the contracts and the market. That was YESTERDAY... now today he trades a consistent double figure winner and a 200 innings guy for another 'project' and a minor league pitcher thought of so little by the same G.M. just a year earlier that he was traded.

AND THIS IS IN A MARKET WHERE PITCHING IS AT A PREMIUM RIGHT? You can't tell me someone out there wasn't willing to offer more for Garcia then what the Sox got, but perhaps (and this is just a guess) the players they were offering in return wouldn't have 'cut' the team salary as much as some wanted.

See what I mean?

Lip

What you are saying makes perfect sense, but you have to remember you and I and everyone else who hates this trade are only armchair GMs. If KW had other offers out there - perhaps offers that, on the surface, would appear to us armchair GMs as better deals - yet KW chose this offer because he loves the potential of Floyd and Gio, well good for him.

If Floyd and Gio turn out to be two no. 3 starters or better, KW has just gotten an absolute steal. But the thing is, we really won't know for at least two years.

As far as salary, the more salary a team can cut the better they are. You also have to consider one more thing, too. Even if the Sox don't take on a large contract this offseason, they are at least in position to do so at the trade deadline this next season. And now, they also have some prospects too.

To me, all this appears to be is KW getting what he thinks is a good return on a starter he knows he can't re-sign. That's it. Every team has to get younger at some point, and unfortunately for the Sox the free agent market is forcing them to get younger more than anything else.

getonbckthr
12-07-2006, 02:37 AM
Geton:

I assume your talking about McCarthy and not Floyd correct? There's an old saying 'a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush...'

We'll see.


Yes I was referring to Brandon.

SluggersAway
12-07-2006, 02:38 AM
Why should we give a 31 yr old pitcher 10 million dollars when we have a 23 yr old who will finish with a similar if not better ERA for 9.5 million dollars less?

The point is that you should get a little more in return for your successful, innings eater, play-off proven 10 million dollar pitcher than just a couple of maybe's and a salary dump.

The strategy of waiting till the end of the winter meetings, the signing of zito, schmidt, and daisuke in order to prey off the desperation of those left out and yet still yearning for solid pitching to get the most out of them was a solid one. Kenny just jumped the gun!

Lip Man 1
12-07-2006, 02:39 AM
User:

Can't argue with your logic. You're right we'll have to wait and see (and hope...)

Lip

Lip Man 1
12-07-2006, 02:40 AM
Sluggers:

Which (if you are correct) begs the question...why would a smart, shrewd, savvy (not Denis!) G.M. like Kenny Williams jump the gun?

I'm still thinking there is another deal on the horizon which will clear some things up and explain away this Garcia dump. I hope so.

Lip

gobears1987
12-07-2006, 02:48 AM
Freddy had three months of an ERA above 5.5, one of 4.8, and another 3.7. September was his shining month, 2.46. I think Brandon may replicate that.
And do you know why September was so good for him?

BECAUSE HE INTRODUCED A NEW PITCH WHICH PROVED EFFECTIVE TO HIM!!!!!

Sorry for yelling. It isn't directed at you. I just wanted to make sure everyone realized that point.

SluggersAway
12-07-2006, 02:49 AM
Lip:

I hope another deal is on the horizon or the other side is that everyone knows Garcia is "damaged goods" in some way besides us.

patbooyah
12-07-2006, 02:56 AM
okay, bear with me here, but how can the same board be mocking the cubs for giving lilly 10 mil a year and be absolutely suicidal that the sox are getting out of paying a pitcher with similar numbers the same amount of money?

http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g98/jaythejoke/Picture4-2.png

i know that garcia is an innings eater, but he is also arguably getting much worse! granted, his career ERA is better, but if garcia was pitching in the AL East last year, I'm guessing his ERA would have been much higher. he was bombed by the yankees, red sox and devil rays.

so despite what he has done in his career, one could make the argument that freddy will put up more innings than lilly next year, but will also put up very similar numbers.

so if we are going to bash the cubs for their signing of lilly, shouldn't we celebrate ridding ourselves of a similar contract and getting a great prospect and a "project" in return?

patbooyah
12-07-2006, 02:59 AM
And do you know why September was so good for him?

BECAUSE HE INTRODUCED A NEW PITCH WHICH PROVED EFFECTIVE TO HIM!!!!!

Sorry for yelling. It isn't directed at you. I just wanted to make sure everyone realized that point.

for the record, he also faced the angels, who he has always owned, the slumping tigers, the crappy indians, the hapless royals, the hapless mariners and the tribe.

UserNameBlank
12-07-2006, 03:05 AM
okay, bear with me here, but how can the same board be mocking the cubs for giving lilly 10 mil a year and be absolutely suicidal that the sox are getting out of paying a pitcher with similar numbers the same amount of money?

http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g98/jaythejoke/Picture4-2.png

i know that garcia is an innings eater, but he is also arguably getting much worse! granted, his career ERA is better, but if garcia was pitching in the AL East last year, I'm guessing his ERA would have been much higher. he was bombed by the yankees, red sox and devil rays.

so despite what he has done in his career, one could make the argument that freddy will put up more innings than lilly next year, but will also put up very similar numbers.

so if we are going to bash the cubs for their signing of lilly, shouldn't we celebrate ridding ourselves of a similar contract and getting a great prospect and a "project" in return?

Look at IP and wins. Look at Freddy's postseason record. Garcia >>> Lilly, and his contract next year will reflect that.

SluggersAway
12-07-2006, 03:08 AM
okay, bear with me here, but how can the same board be mocking the cubs for giving lilly 10 mil a year and be absolutely suicidal that the sox are getting out of paying a pitcher with similar numbers the same amount of money?

Easy, "the same board" is made up of individual participants each with their own mind and actions, and thus no consensus has been reached where everyone is "mocking the cubs" nor are they equating Lilly with Garcia no matter what salary they have each been granted this year or in years past.

Let alone comparing the numbers they have put up or the contribution they have made to their respective teams lately.

nodiggity59
12-07-2006, 03:08 AM
And do you know why September was so good for him?

BECAUSE HE INTRODUCED A NEW PITCH WHICH PROVED EFFECTIVE TO HIM!!!!!

Sorry for yelling. It isn't directed at you. I just wanted to make sure everyone realized that point.

Unless that pitch is a knuckler, it won't make up for his crappy fastball. 2-3 times through the league, and he'll be blasted worse than ever.

patbooyah
12-07-2006, 03:09 AM
Look at IP and wins. Look at Freddy's postseason record. Garcia >>> Lilly, and his contract next year will reflect that.

i'd take ERA and WHIP over wins any day. Lilly and Garcia are a wash in those two categories and garcia had the easier division (in terms of hitting). garcia also seems to be on the decline, with all those innings of pitching catching up with him.

patbooyah
12-07-2006, 03:10 AM
Easy, "the same board" is made up of individual participants each with their own mind and actions, and thus no consensus has been reached where everyone is "mocking the cubs" nor are they equating Lilly with Garcia no matter what salary they have each been granted this year or in years past.

Let alone comparing the numbers they have put up or the contribution they have made to their respective teams lately.

i should have said majority of posters.

Jerome
12-07-2006, 03:10 AM
***?????

I'm at a loss for words over this.

Not Garcia for Floyd and Rowand...

But Garcia for Floyd and a minor league pitcher the Sox thought so little of they dealt him last off season.

Unfrigginbelieveable.

Lip

I'm not 100% sure on this but wasn't Gio the main focus of the Thome trade?

And he's Jim Thome, of course you're going to have to give up something to get him, that doesn't mean the Sox were down on him when they made the trade

SluggersAway
12-07-2006, 03:25 AM
i should have said majority of posters.

So you like or don't dislike this trade because the Cubs got an "equally bad" pitcher for ten million dollars at the same time as we rid ourselves of a ten million dollar pitcher in exchange for some prospects?

Or do you just wonder about the psyche of WSI as a collective whole?

Something does not compute.

UserNameBlank
12-07-2006, 03:34 AM
i'd take ERA and WHIP over wins any day. Lilly and Garcia are a wash in those two categories and garcia had the easier division (in terms of hitting). garcia also seems to be on the decline, with all those innings of pitching catching up with him.

Why everyone keeps coming up with this "Garcia is on the decline" crap makes no sense to me. The guy pitched well over 200 innings again in 2005, pitched through the postseason and WBC, and lost a few mph off his fastball. He had to adapt so he learned a splitter and finished the season strong.

People in 2005 were saying Schmidt was washed up because he lost some velocity. He regained it only one year later and he didn't even pitch as much as Freddy did.

I see it like this: no matter what, Freddy is a big game pitcher who battles when you need him to battle. He won 17 games last year in a bad year that took him half of a season to adapt to a newer style of pitching. If Freddy regains some heat over the offseason AND uses that splitter next year, he will win at least 17 games again, even if the Phils only win 80. But even if Freddy doesn't regain any velocity he is still going to remain a very good pitcher. Sorry, but Ted Lilly can't sniff Freddy's jock.

ShoelessJoeS
12-07-2006, 03:36 AM
I'm not 100% sure on this but wasn't Gio the main focus of the Thome trade?

And he's Jim Thome, of course you're going to have to give up something to get him, that doesn't mean the Sox were down on him when they made the tradeThinking about the two trades over the past two years, I'd take Thome/Floyd/Gio over Rowand/Freddy/Haigwood any day.

UserNameBlank
12-07-2006, 03:53 AM
So you like or don't dislike this trade because the Cubs got an "equally bad" pitcher for ten million dollars at the same time as we rid ourselves of a ten million dollar pitcher in exchange for some prospects?

Or do you just wonder about the psyche of WSI as a collective whole?

Something does not compute.
I don't understand either.

First off, Garcia is at least a $14-15mil player in any market where Lilly is worth $10. The Sox either know they can not extend Freddy OR the Sox know they can not extend both Freddy and Mark, and the Sox choose to extend Mark. I would bet just about anything that KW is negotiating with Buehrle right now.

The Cubs are backwards IMO. Before signing Lilly, they had a rotation of Zambrano, Prior, and Hill. Two spots were open out of the group of Sean Marshall/Angel Guzman/Carlos Marmol/Neal Cotts/Kerry Wood/Juan Mateo/Glendon Rusch/Wade Miller. Now, none of these guys are exactly innings eaters, but most are young and have potential. Instead of even overpaying for Schmidt or Zito, they over pay for another 6 inning pitcher in Lilly? Why? The Cubs are still going to suck, but at least if they don't sign Lilly they save $10mil and get to watch one of their own kids develop. Instead, now all these guys will be competing, I guess, for one spot in the rotation. They are still going to have an overworked bullpen, so I don't get it.

What the Cubs do should never be compared in any way, shape, or form to what the Sox do. The Sox, by trading Freddy and obtaining prospects, are looking at the present and the future. The Cubs, by being stupid, are looking at the present when they should be looking at the future.

Realist
12-07-2006, 03:59 AM
Dear Everybody That Hates This Trade,

Please play chess against me for large amounts of money per game. Nobody in my family will ever have to work again.

Love,
Realist
xoxo

guillen4life13
12-07-2006, 04:29 AM
For those of you who are saying that $ is meaningless, get real!

This trade, above all, I think was made to get rid of some salary. I also think this means that Crede will likely stay put in Chicago (which I don't complain about).

This frees up at least 8mil that KW can use to acquire a couple good relievers or other minor FA signings. If there's another big trade, he has a little extra dough to put towards a contract for the new acquisition. I agree with the posters who suggest that this is a precursor to a Baldelli trade. That would rock my socks (pun intended).

Considering the raises that KW is going to have to deal with, given the market today, it was already known that he was going to need to get rid of some salary so that the Sox would have money to pay for players like Crede.

So I'm really not that ticked about this trade. I'm not yet ecstatic, but we really have seen how this can pull into the Sox favor.

The Sox lost Ordonez and Lee in the 2005 offseason. They acquired Podsednik, who was coming off of a year in which he hit around .240, and Vizcaino, who was not thought to be a great reliever, but alright. Podsednik's hitting abilities weren't (and still aren't) a proven commodity, but that type of player is what the Sox needed at the time.

I'll fully judge come Opening Day, when the roster is more or less finalized.

Grzegorz
12-07-2006, 05:01 AM
I hope to God Rogers is wrong....the Sox seemed to have it all going for them after 2005 and now this is a possibility?

Lip

Lip,

How much more could one have received for Garcia? He had a less than stellar start of the season, was a poor clubhouse guy, could not field his position, and could not hold runners on base.

This is a gamble for sure but I am sure KW saw value in Floyd. KW receives a lefty that was pretty well regarded by many on this board when he was dealt last year. This deal also frees up cash to make other moves.

Weighing risk versus reward I see the reward having a much higher ceiling.

ilsox7
12-07-2006, 05:17 AM
Not sure if this KW quote has been posted (I've missed some posts between studying for an exam tonight and reading about the trade):

''[Floyd] is a power arm, 91 to 94 [mph fastball], hard curve, fading change,'' Williams said. ''We watched film all day on his delivery and see a way we can work on his command.''

The optimists out there will recognize that almost the exact same thing about Thornton was said when that deal went down. Coop saw a flaw on film.

ilsox7
12-07-2006, 05:37 AM
Geton:

Answer me this...assuming the Sox continue to draw 2.5 to 3 million fans and based on the ownerships comments for twenty years about 'come out and we'll spend...' WHY can't the White Sox in the 3rd largest market in the country have a payroll at 100 million or slightly more every season?

That's not Yankee money, that's not Red Sox money, that's not Dodgers or Cubs or Mets money is it?

If the Cardinals, Astros, Braves and SEATTLE MARINERS for God's sake, can for years spend that kind of money, why can't the White Sox?

Lip

I think the Sox will continue to spend $100MM-ish. But the issue is that, in the current market, an average starting pitcher will run you $10MM per year (hello Ted Lilly). Therefore, you HAVE to have a couple of young arms in the rotation, otherwise an average rotation is going to cost you upwards of $50-60MM. As it stands now, you could make a reasonable argument that the Sox pitching staff, on the free market, would be worth upwards of $55MM. Figure JG, Jose, and are MB are $14MM per year type guys, give or take, Javy is a $10MM per year guy and Brandon is $3MM (which is probably a low estimate given the demand for him). There is no way a team on a $100MM can afford that with guys like Konerko, Thome, Crede, and Dye on the payroll.

Instead, the Sox are currently paying those 5 guys about $41MM (give or take, I think). In theory, if the market stays where it is, the Sox could afford 3 starters at $14MM per year and two young guys, giving you a similarly priced rotation. But in order to get those young guys, you have to take some risks, hence the trade tonight.

Regardless, one of three things will happen over the next few years:

1. This market we are seeing this year has a MAJOR correction, leaving a handful of teams royally ****ed by some awful contracts.

2. Cash in MLB continues to flow freely, including to the White Sox, and the budget goes up by a large amount, allowing for a $60MM starting pitching staff.

3. Most other teams pass the Sox by with payroll and us Sox fans are royally ****ed.

PeoriaSoxFan
12-07-2006, 05:52 AM
Whether of not Freddy is going to dominate or suck next year isn't the point. The point is that Kenny did not get equal value in this trade. We get two prospects, who had ERAs over 4.5 in the minors!!! We don't know if they ever will be any good. I thought Kenny was going to wait and play his cards. Yeah right. This flat out sucks and makes me sick. Had Rowand been in this deal then maybe it makes sense. Add to it that we will likely dump all of our other starters in the future and you can see the return to White Sox suck. After last year, I thought we were building to be an annual playoff team. I don't see how this gets us there. Had Kenny traded for a can't miss guy, I might feel differently. I also like the fact that Kenny is again trading for a guy that he already had and traded away. Nice pattern Kenny. What is wrong with you? Are we not going to address CF? No, I guess it is just going to be addition through subtraction.

PeoriaSoxFan
12-07-2006, 05:55 AM
Lip,

How much more could one have received for Garcia? He had a less than stellar start of the season, was a poor clubhouse guy, could not field his position, and could not hold runners on base.

This is a gamble for sure but I am sure KW saw value in Floyd. KW receives a lefty that was pretty well regarded by many on this board when he was dealt last year. This deal also frees up cash to make other moves.

Weighing risk versus reward I see the reward having a much higher
ceiling.


If Garcia's value was so bad, how did Schmidt just get $16 mill a year, with a higher ERA than Freddy? Also, how does this free up money for the Sox? There is no salary cap!!! And, the Sox just had their highest attendance year ever. Here we are again, the poor sisters of the league.

UserNameBlank
12-07-2006, 06:05 AM
Whether of not Freddy is going to dominate or suck next year isn't the point. The point is that Kenny did not get equal value in this trade. We get two prospects, who had ERAs over 4.5 in the minors!!! We don't know if they ever will be any good. I thought Kenny was going to wait and play his cards. Yeah right. This flat out sucks and makes me sick. Had Rowand been in this deal then maybe it makes sense. Add to it that we will likely dump all of our other starters in the future and you can see the return to White Sox suck. After last year, I thought we were building to be an annual playoff team. I don't see how this gets us there. Had Kenny traded for a can't miss guy, I might feel differently. I also like the fact that Kenny is again trading for a guy that he already had and traded away. Nice pattern Kenny. What is wrong with you? Are we not going to address CF? No, I guess it is just going to be addition through subtraction.

Yeah, 'cause KW should have landed Johan Santana & Nathan from Minny instead.

Jeez, just because some people around here hate the trade doesn't mean KW made a bad move. If KW was offered other deals and decided instead to take Gio and Floyd because he thinks they have huge upside, then that makes him a good, capable GM.

Your ERA in the minors argument holds about as much weight as an Ethopian with tapeworms. For pitchers to develop they have to get lit up time to time. They make mistakes, hopefully learn from them and correct them and in the process find a comfort zone that leads to ML success.

No one knows how this trade will turn out right now, but stay away from ERA arguments about young pitchers because it doesn't mean jack.

About Gio returning: KW traded him for Jim Thome and several million dollars cash. It's not like KW just gave this guy up for nothing. In fact, at the time Gio was THE key in that deal, perhaps even more valuable than Rowand. I'm guessing KW probably could have gotten Rowand instead of Gio, but chose Gio because he isn't stupid.

santo=dorf
12-07-2006, 06:13 AM
We replace a mediocre pitcher with a pitcher who will probably do better than him. We also save around 10 million dollars and upgrade our SP depth in the minor league system.
How exactly is Garcia "mediocre?" His beloved ERA+ was over 100. Doesn't that turn you on?

His numbers were strikingly similar to Garland's last year yet I don't think you'd call him mediocre. If Garland gets you a better package, wouldn't it be better to trade him?

UserNameBlank
12-07-2006, 06:15 AM
If Garcia's value was so bad, how did Schmidt just get $16 mill a year, with a higher ERA than Freddy? Also, how does this free up money for the Sox? There is no salary cap!!! And, the Sox just had their highest attendance year ever. Here we are again, the poor sisters of the league.

:whiner: :whiner: :whiner: :whiner: :whiner: :whiner: :whiner: :whiner:

The move frees up money because now the Sox don't owe Garcia $10mil dollars. Cry all you want, but JR has given KW a very competitive payroll around the $100mil mark to work with. In order to compensate for raises and extensions, as well as possible new additions, something had to be done. Besides, McCarthy sucked in the bullpen anyway. He might do some good as a starter, so don't pay $10mil for 15 wins and an ERA in the mid 4's when you have a guy capable of giving you that already, and he is making the league minimum.

WhiteSox5187
12-07-2006, 06:58 AM
Anyone who thinks that this trade is going to save us enough money to resign Crede and keep Buherle or Garland is nuts. This is a typical move ordered by Reisendorf. He's upset that the price of pitching and any sort of talent has gone up so much. He's not going to cough up that much money, he's going young. Phil Rogers (while biased of course, but he's still a very smart baseball guy) wrote today that KW has said he would have no problem letting go of EVERY MEMBER OF THE '05 ROTATION. That is a quote that recalls Reisendorf circa 1994. He's pouting. And unless we win the WS in '07, we're going young in '08 and very young in '09. It's nice to see that that sense of cheapness that is so ingrained in Reisendorf is back.

wassagstdu
12-07-2006, 06:59 AM
Last year the Sox considered Rowand expendable because of Anderson (oops) and this year the Phillies consider Rowand expendable because of Victorino. Supposing the Sox would like to undo that Anderson for Rowand switch, maybe the other shoe we expect to fall could be a 3-team deal in which Anderson goes somewhere and Rowand comes back to the Sox? Net Garcia and Anderson for Thome and Floyd. Works for me, even though I do think Anderson will be a very good CF for a long time (and that some GM will also think that, though not Gillick because of Victorino).

itsnotrequired
12-07-2006, 07:13 AM
I just got into work this morning and saw the trade. Egads, not at all what I was expecting. My take:

1. This is a stepping stone to a larger trade.

2. Coop saw something on film and feels he can turn Gavin into a stud.

3. Kenny does his research and isn't going to make a pointless trade.

The money demanded by pitchers today is ridiculous. Seeing as how the Sox have a surplus of veteran arms at relatively low salaries and have (had) them locked up for 2007, I figured Kenny would want to go for it all this season. As others have pointed out, there is no way the Sox could pick up Buehrle and Garcia as free agents while at the same time picking up Dye as a free agent and keeping Konerko and Thome on the payroll.

I'm waiting for the storm to settle over this one...

anewman35
12-07-2006, 07:20 AM
I'm not so sure I like the trade myself, but people have to get some perspective here. Even if the trade turns out horrible (which we probably won't know for a few years), it just hurts us next year, because Freddy was gone anyway. But the upside could last for years. In 3 years, if Freddy Garcia is stuck at a $15 million dollar 5th starter somewhere and we have Floyd and Gonzales anchoring our rotation, who's going to say this was a bad trade?

DaveIsHere
12-07-2006, 07:22 AM
Like others have said I think this is one that only time will tell if it was a good trade or not.

rdwj
12-07-2006, 07:26 AM
Seem like nothing more than a salary dump - which is sad. With record high attendance and great television numbers last year, you'd think the Sox would have finally broken free of the small market mentality, but apparently they haven't.

I HOPE Kenny proves me wrong in the days to come, but I can't say that I am anything short of disappointed right now.

jenn2080
12-07-2006, 07:34 AM
I just got into work this morning and saw the trade. Egads, not at all what I was expecting. My take:

1. This is a stepping stone to a larger trade.

2. Coop saw something on film and feels he can turn Gavin into a stud.

3. Kenny does his research and isn't going to make a pointless trade.

The money demanded by pitchers today is ridiculous. Seeing as how the Sox have a surplus of veteran arms at relatively low salaries and have (had) them locked up for 2007, I figured Kenny would want to go for it all this season. As others have pointed out, there is no way the Sox could pick up Buehrle and Garcia as free agents while at the same time picking up Dye as a free agent and keeping Konerko and Thome on the payroll.

I'm waiting for the storm to settle over this one...


What a voice of reason you are. :D:

BeviBall!
12-07-2006, 07:38 AM
After my extremely negative kneejerk reaction to this trade, it's starting to come into focus. Freddy was gone after 2007 and KW needed to get the best deal possible for him. We know KW is no dummy so we have to assume this was the best deal possible. We get a former #4 pick as well as one of our top rated pitchers back. Now, he can either parlay this into another deal for Rocco or someone else, or we can play the waiting game with Floyd and Gio and see how they adapt to Cooper. It's a sound strategy to restock your pitching, it just doesn't feel right when we all think this team can win another crown this year.

This can also serve as a warning to Buehrle, Vazquez and Contreras. Mediocrity will not be tolerated. Out of all our starters from 2006, Garcia would have been the one I'd peg as being the most disinterested. The constant, public berating of his defenders in the field, the weed incident at the WBC, etc. Attitude is very important to this franchise.

I'd really like to hear PK's take on this after signing here for less than he could have gotten elsewhere. I wonder how the vets believe this move will help us win now. Again, attitude. The clubhouse needs to buy into this more than we do.

That said, we have plenty of shopping days left before Opening Day. Williams isn't done and perhaps the money saved and arms acquired will play into future deals.

soxlover
12-07-2006, 07:58 AM
I really don't see this as being that bad. Garcia was gone after this year. I believe that the organization sees some similarity between Floyd and Thornton. Everyone can agree that Thornton was a nice surprise. It does also free up $10 mill for someone else.

Maybe now we can sign Barry Bonds

Law11
12-07-2006, 08:03 AM
Take it for where its coming from but North (670) this morning was talking about how if he heard it right there was a trade on the table for Vernon Wells for Freddy straight up but that KW wanted a 4 year extension signed and it didnt happen..

I find that really hard to buy but I thought I'd throw it out there..

rdwj
12-07-2006, 08:07 AM
Take it for where its coming from but North (670) this morning was talking about how if he heard it right there was a trade on the table for Vernon Wells for Freddy straight up but that KW wanted a 4 year extension signed and it didnt happen..

I find that really hard to buy but I thought I'd throw it out there..

If true - that's fine. You don't want move a quality arm for a guy that's going to bolt right away. Looking for something longterm is smart

Craig Grebeck
12-07-2006, 08:10 AM
How exactly is Garcia "mediocre?" His beloved ERA+ was over 100. Doesn't that turn you on?

His numbers were strikingly similar to Garland's last year yet I don't think you'd call him mediocre. If Garland gets you a better package, wouldn't it be better to trade him?
oooo, his ERA+ was 103. How remarkable. You wouldn't beat down someone's door with MLB pitchers for an overworked crybaby who is leaving his prime years, has lost significant velocity, and is one year away from free agency, would you?

I'm not a huge fan of Garland, but he is signed longer and is younger.

Oh, and thanks for the jab about stats, really relevant. Freddy's a workhorse, he's gritty, doesn't that turn you on?!?!!? He even eats dirt...

WhiteSox5187
12-07-2006, 08:15 AM
If true - that's fine. You don't want move a quality arm for a guy that's going to bolt right away. Looking for something longterm is smart
Yea, but if they fail to resign Crede and fail to address their CF problems, I forsee a youth movement a foot which means bye bye to Buerhle, Garland, and Crede. It could very well be like the late nineties and late eightie repeating itself...come to think of it, we don't do very well in the later half of decades.

pmck003
12-07-2006, 08:18 AM
This clears up some money for barry bonds!

SouthSide_HitMen
12-07-2006, 08:29 AM
The key to this deal is what happens today through April 2nd. If Kenny is able to fill one of our three offensive holes and also get a bullpen arm or two than we will be in good shape in 2007 (and just as important beyond). Gavin should help in the bullpen this year and hopefully will be ready if he needs to replace an injured starter.

I wouldn't slit my wrists for 2007 unless Mark Buehrle or Jose Contreras is also dealt for a few prospects, which I do not think Kenny Williams has in mind.

Kenny Williams wants to win more than anyone on this board. I think people need to chill and see what else develops before jumping to any rash conclusions.

Carlos Lee for Scott Podsednik - bad trade.

Carlos Lee for Scott Podsednik and free agents Tadahito Iguchi and AJ Pierzynski - great trade.

PS - **** Phil Rogers.

rdwj
12-07-2006, 08:32 AM
Yea, but if they fail to resign Crede and fail to address their CF problems, I forsee a youth movement a foot which means bye bye to Buerhle, Garland, and Crede. It could very well be like the late nineties and late eightie repeating itself...come to think of it, we don't do very well in the later half of decades.

You're right - you can't fail, fail and fail again and hope to retain the fan support you've built over the past couple of years. If there is one thing the Sox should have learned is that the fans will support them, but they've GOT to be a winner.

I'm not convinced that CF is a problem, but they certainly have areas of concern.

rdwj
12-07-2006, 08:35 AM
Carlos Lee for Scott Podsednik - bad trade.

Carlos Lee for Scott Podsednik and free agents Tadahito Iguchi and AJ Pierzynski - great trade.

Very true. Right now, I'm admittedly disappointed, but that could change in a heartbeat

samram
12-07-2006, 08:39 AM
The key to this deal is what happens today through April 2nd. If Kenny is able to fill one of our three offensive holes and also get a bullpen arm or two than we will be in good shape in 2007. Gavin should help in the bullpen this year and hopefully will be ready if he needs to replace an injured starter.

I wouldn't slit my wrists for 2007 unless Mark Buehrle or Jose Contreras is also dealt for a few prospects, which I do not think Kenny Williams has in mind.

Kenny Williams wants to win more than anyone on this board. I think people need to chill and see what else develops before jumping to any rash conclusions.

Carlos Lee for Scott Podsednik - bad trade.

Carlos Lee for Scott Podsednik and free agents Tadahito Iguchi and AJ Pierzynski - great trade.

PS - **** Phil Rogers.

I agree with all that except the last sentence. KW did seem to indicate that none of the five guys from last year's rotation would be extended. Whether that works out is still to be seen.

There is $10M to be spent now. I'm not one to complain about payroll and I like finding value, but there are holes on this team that need to be filled. If those holes aren't filled and the Sox go into 2007 with a lower payroll than last season's after the fan support they received, that would look pretty bad.

CLR01
12-07-2006, 08:40 AM
Last year the Sox considered Rowand expendable because of Anderson (oops) and this year the Phillies consider Rowand expendable because of Victorino. Supposing the Sox would like to undo that Anderson for Rowand switch, maybe the other shoe we expect to fall could be a 3-team deal in which Anderson goes somewhere and Rowand comes back to the Sox? Net Garcia and Anderson for Thome and Floyd. Works for me, even though I do think Anderson will be a very good CF for a long time (and that some GM will also think that, though not Gillick because of Victorino).

So they are going to make a third trade with the same team to get back a mediocre CFer that could have been included in the deal they just made? *****. Rowand is not coming back, time to get on with your life.

WhiteSox5187
12-07-2006, 08:45 AM
I agree with all that except the last sentence. KW did seem to indicate that none of the five guys from last year's rotation would be extended. Whether that works out is still to be seen.

There is $10M to be spent now. I'm not one to complain about payroll and I like finding value, but there are holes on this team that need to be filled. If those holes aren't filled and the Sox go into 2007 with a lower payroll than last season's after the fan support they received, that would look pretty bad.
I agree, but it would be typical Reisendorf to get all this fan support and all this extra income and intrest in the Sox and then turn around and go for a youth movement.

jenn2080
12-07-2006, 08:48 AM
Last year the Sox considered Rowand expendable because of Anderson (oops) and this year the Phillies consider Rowand expendable because of Victorino. Supposing the Sox would like to undo that Anderson for Rowand switch, maybe the other shoe we expect to fall could be a 3-team deal in which Anderson goes somewhere and Rowand comes back to the Sox? Net Garcia and Anderson for Thome and Floyd. Works for me, even though I do think Anderson will be a very good CF for a long time (and that some GM will also think that, though not Gillick because of Victorino).


Rowand is not coming back (http://mlb.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/news/article.jsp?ymd=20061206&content_id=1753339&vkey=hotstove2006&fext=.jsp)

SoxxoS
12-07-2006, 08:50 AM
Dear most,

GET A GRIP. This is NOT "the kids can play, part deux."

Too many people are overreacting to this trade...thinking it's a precursor to JR not spending any money and going back to the "kids."

Please keep in mind KW is still our GM and we are in good hands. He doesn't get fleeced often, and I am pretty sure this was the best deal available...OR ELSE KENNY WOULDNT HAVE MADE IT.

Take a deep breath for cripe sake.

Dan H
12-07-2006, 08:52 AM
I agree, but it would be typical Reisendorf to get all this fan support and all this extra income and intrest in the Sox and then turn around and go for a youth movement.

According to Phil Rogers, a youth movement is exactly what the White Sox are doing. He predicts that the whole pitching rotation will be gone by '08. I know the starting rotation let the team down in '06 but this would be rash. We could be in for several years on non-contention.

PennStater98r
12-07-2006, 08:55 AM
w t f ?

Craig Grebeck
12-07-2006, 08:56 AM
According to Phil Rogers, a youth movement is exactly what the White Sox are doing. He predicts that the whole pitching rotation will be gone by '08. I know the starting rotation let the team down in '06 but this would be rash. We could be in for several years on non-contention.
Not if the pitchers pan out. Broadway, McCullough, Gio, Floyd, McCarthy, Haeger are all viable prospects and who's to say they won't develop nicely?

samram
12-07-2006, 08:58 AM
Dear most,

GET A GRIP. This is NOT "the kids can play, part deux."

Too many people are overreacting to this trade...thinking it's a precursor to JR not spending any money and going back to the "kids."

Please keep in mind KW is still our GM and we are in good hands. He doesn't get fleeced often, and I am pretty sure this was the best deal available...OR ELSE KENNY WOULDNT HAVE MADE IT.

Take a deep breath for cripe sake.

That's probably true, and I think we need to see what KW does. One has to think KW knows there are holes that still need to be filled and he doesn't want to go into the season with what is presently a very average bullpen.

samram
12-07-2006, 09:01 AM
According to Phil Rogers, a youth movement is exactly what the White Sox are doing. He predicts that the whole pitching rotation will be gone by '08. I know the starting rotation let the team down in '06 but this would be rash. We could be in for several years on non-contention.

Well, KW also thinks there will be a market correction. He's probably thinking he can replace the current guys with similar guys at better prices if he waits until 2008.

PaulDrake
12-07-2006, 09:03 AM
When will people understand that hardly anyone wants Freddy? You can't get great return for your pitcher when NO ONE WANTS HIM CAUSE HE'S WASHED UP! My ears hurt. In no way is Freddy washed up. I hope this trade frees up some money to do something else down the road. If not, then Floyd better be a diamond in the rough.

russ99
12-07-2006, 09:03 AM
OK, I'm over my initial cringe reaction on this deal, and the only way I can take it at face value is the extra salary. If Freddy would have been traded for players of making up a near equal salary, the Sox would have gotten better players in return.

So my assumption is that the reason the Phillies gave up so little for Garcia was because they were willing to take on the extra salary.

One can only hope that the Sox use that extra salary to make the exchange worth their while.

jandm859
12-07-2006, 09:05 AM
Back to the old white sox. looking to save money, then make excuses why they wont spend like a major market team. It was fun while it lasted.

itsnotrequired
12-07-2006, 09:05 AM
Carlos Lee for Scott Podsednik - bad trade.

Carlos Lee for Scott Podsednik and free agents Tadahito Iguchi and AJ Pierzynski - great trade.

Don't forget the money freed up by letting Maggs walk played a part in getting those players as well as some busted-leg named Jermaine Dye.:cool:

SouthSide_HitMen
12-07-2006, 09:05 AM
I agree with all that except the last sentence. KW did seem to indicate that none of the five guys from last year's rotation would be extended. Whether that works out is still to be seen.

There is $10M to be spent now. I'm not one to complain about payroll and I like finding value, but there are holes on this team that need to be filled. If those holes aren't filled and the Sox go into 2007 with a lower payroll than last season's after the fan support they received, that would look pretty bad.

I agree. I think Kenny will address one offensive hole and get some help for the bullpen as well before the season starts. If not, 2007 will be a season of what ifs (as in what if Garcia wasn't dealt).

According to Phil Rogers, a youth movement is exactly what the White Sox are doing. He predicts that the whole pitching rotation will be gone by '08. I know the starting rotation let the team down in '06 but this would be rash. We could be in for several years on non-contention.

Kenny Williams is the GM, not Phil Rogers. :cool:

rdivaldi
12-07-2006, 09:09 AM
Back to the old white sox. looking to save money, then make excuses why they wont spend like a major market team. It was fun while it lasted.

:dtroll:

Ol' No. 2
12-07-2006, 09:12 AM
Don't forget the money freed up by letting Maggs walk played a part in getting those players as well as some busted-leg named Jermaine Dye.:cool:How much money would they have saved trading Freddy Garcia for GOOD prospects? All they got was a project and a prospect.

russ99
12-07-2006, 09:12 AM
Kenny Williams is the GM, not Phil Rogers. :cool:

Amen, bro. If he were the GM, all the Sox' good players would be traded to the Cubs!

itsnotrequired
12-07-2006, 09:14 AM
How much money would they have saved trading Freddy Garcia for GOOD prospects? All they got was a project and a prospect.

That's how it stands right now but I'm still not convienced that Kenny is done wheeling and dealing.

Ol' No. 2
12-07-2006, 09:16 AM
That's how it stands right now but I'm still not convienced that Kenny is done wheeling and dealing.If he does indeed flip these guys for someone better, I'll tip my hat to him. As it stands now, I can't believe he couldn't have done better. If you're going to trade for prospects, at least get good prospects.

WhiteSox5187
12-07-2006, 09:17 AM
That's true. With one trade or one contract extension KW could squash all these rumors of the "Kids Can Play Part Deux" and leave me (and everything I've said today) looking as dumb as Jay Mariotti.

WhiteSox5187
12-07-2006, 09:17 AM
That's how it stands right now but I'm still not convienced that Kenny is done wheeling and dealing.
That's true. With one trade or one contract extension KW could squash all these rumors of the "Kids Can Play Part Deux" and leave me (and everything I've said today) looking as dumb as Jay Mariotti.

samram
12-07-2006, 09:21 AM
If he does indeed flip these guys for someone better, I'll tip my hat to him. As it stands now, I can't believe he couldn't have done better. If you're going to trade for prospects, at least get good prospects.

That's why I'm interested to see what Philly gets for Lieber. The rumor was they were going to trade Lieber for Mench and Turnbow as soon as they got another starter. If they get that, it would seem Garcia didn't bring as much as he could- unless, again, getting prospects was necessary to do something else.

itsnotrequired
12-07-2006, 09:24 AM
If he does indeed flip these guys for someone better, I'll tip my hat to him. As it stands now, I can't believe he couldn't have done better. If you're going to trade for prospects, at least get good prospects.

...and Gavin could turn into the next Santana, you never know. I guess all we can do is wait and see but I have faith that Kenny isn't looking to simply dump salary. To pass the time, please join me in an exchange of wild ideas and knee-jerk reactions. Here, I'll start:

This trade is the precursor to the real trade: Buehrle and Konerko to the Cards for Puljos. Flip Puljos to the Yankees for Damon and Cabrerra. Use freed up salary to buy rocket cars.

Okay, your turn...

:redneck

Mickster
12-07-2006, 09:24 AM
I read through the 7th page in this thread and immediately went to the end to make this post. It seemed that the thread divided among 2 beliefs:

a. Freddy Garcia is washed up and clearly on the downside of his career and KW made a good move by acquiring 2 young arms who may be the future of our rotation, cooper can do miracles, etc.

b. What the hell was KW thinking trading a 200 inning eater who would be a #2 on most staffs in baseball for Gavin Floyd and Gio Gonzalez. This is hardly the "win now" attitude that we have been hearing about.

My initial beliefs sided with #2 above and, like Lip, felt a bit sick to my stomach after hearing the news on the radio this morning.

My thoughts then turned to the Carlos Lee trade at the beginning of '05 where we sent Lee to Milwaukee for Podsednik and Vizcaino. On it's face the Lee for Vizcaino deal was a horrible trade but it did end up allowing us to sign Iguchi, Pierzinski and El Duque. In the end, it was a brilliant trade for the Sox that significantly contributed to the 2005 World Series.

I will hold my opinion on this deal to see if it leads to something greater. My gut tells me that the financial savings we see in this deal are not the motivating force behind the trade (unlike the Lee deal in 05). If Kenny manages to flip Anderson, Floyd and another ML ready pitcher (Gonzalez or not) to Tampa for say Crawford or to Atlanta for Andrew Jones (these are but 2 examples - and I am not saying that either team would accept such a deal) then it quickly becomes a brilliant move for Kenny. If no other moves are made this off-season and Kenny rounds out the bullpen by pulling a couple of cheap arms from the scrap heap with the Garcia savings, my belief is that we will have ultimately been fleeced by the Phillies.

Time will tell.

fquaye149
12-07-2006, 09:33 AM
How much money would they have saved trading Freddy Garcia for GOOD prospects? All they got was a project and a prospect.

A project? I mean...yeah he's been around 5 years, but he's 23 years old and he was a first round pick.

He's a project insofar as Coop will probably have to *tinker* with his mechanics, but it's not like he's Esteban Loaiza or some other journeyman who once upon a time was thought to be great but now is just a 30 year old .500 pitcher

SoxFan78
12-07-2006, 09:35 AM
Some Asshat on espn 1000 is on the air and saying he is cancelling his season tickets because of this trade.

Get off the bandwagon, dont let the door hit you on the way out.

palehozenychicty
12-07-2006, 09:36 AM
Keep feeding live arms to Coop and eventually a few of them will pan out. We've already seen it a couple of times.

If nothing else it doesn't seriously weaken the club and it frees up money.

I trust KW until he builds a team that competes for worst record in the league. I owe him that much...

Indeed. Floyd is on the verge of being a journeyman or a respectable pitcher, assuming he isn't flipped for something else. It's worth a shot.

Ol' No. 2
12-07-2006, 09:36 AM
I read through the 7th page in this thread and immediately went to the end to make this post. It seemed that the thread divided among 2 beliefs:

a. Freddy Garcia is washed up and clearly on the downside of his career and KW made a good move by acquiring 2 young arms who may be the future of our rotation, cooper can do miracles, etc.

b. What the hell was KW thinking trading a 200 inning eater who would be a #2 on most staffs in baseball for Gavin Floyd and Gio Gonzalez. This is hardly the "win now" attitude that we have been hearing about.

My initial beliefs sided with #2 above and, like Lip, felt a bit sick to my stomach after hearing the news on the radio this morning.

My thoughts then turned to the Carlos Lee trade at the beginning of '05 where we sent Lee to Milwaukee for Podsednik and Vizcaino. On it's face the Lee for Vizcaino deal was a horrible trade but it did end up allowing us to sign Iguchi, Pierzinski and El Duque. In the end, it was a brilliant trade for the Sox that significantly contributed to the 2005 World Series.

I will hold my opinion on this deal to see if it leads to something greater. My gut tells me that the financial savings we see in this deal are not the motivating force behind the trade (unlike the Lee deal in 05). If Kenny manages to flip Anderson, Floyd and another ML ready pitcher (Gonzalez or not) to Tampa for say Crawford or to Atlanta for Andrew Jones (these are but 2 examples - and I am not saying that either team would accept such a deal) then it quickly becomes a brilliant move for Kenny. If no other moves are made this off-season and Kenny rounds out the bullpen by pulling a couple of cheap arms from the scrap heap with the Garcia savings, my belief is that we will have ultimately been fleeced by the Phillies.

Time will tell.The comparisons to the CLee deal are crazy. It's a very differenct situation.

1. The Sox got TWO major-league ready players for Lee, one of whom was the leadoff hitter they needed and became a key part of the WS winning team. For Garcia they got a project and a prospect.

2. The Sox needed payroll room two years ago because they had a lot of holes to fill. In addition to Pods and Vizcaino they acquired Dye, Iguchi, Pierzynski, Everett, Hermanson and Hernandez. I don't believe they're going to turn over that much of the roster this year, so why the need to free up payroll?

I agree with you on the financial part. My gut tells me the same thing. They're sure as hell not going to use the money to sign Barry Zito. The only things that can save this deal are if they flip one of both of these guys to someone else for someone they need or if Cooper can turn Floyd into something.

fquaye149
12-07-2006, 09:37 AM
Indeed. Floyd is on the verge of being a journeyman or a respectable pitcher, assuming he isn't flipped for something else. It's worth a shot.

he is 23 and has been compared to Garland. How old was Garland in his first solid year?

itsnotrequired
12-07-2006, 09:40 AM
Some Asshat on espn 1000 is on the air and saying he is cancelling his season tickets because of this trade.

Get off the bandwagon, dont let the door hit you on the way out.

I guess the renewal rate is now down to a paltry 98.65% because of this guy.

:rolleyes:

samram
12-07-2006, 09:42 AM
he is 23 and has been compared to Garland. How old was Garland in his first solid year?

He's got better stuff than Garland. He supposedly has Carpenter-like stuff. Hopefully, it won't take him as long as it took Carpenter to get good.

Ol' No. 2
12-07-2006, 09:42 AM
he is 23 and has been compared to Garland. How old was Garland in his first solid year?The comparisons with Garland don't follow. Garland had more tools and was good enough to break into the major leagues at 20 years of age. Floyd has a good curve ball but not much else. Sure it's POSSIBLE that Cooper will turn him into a 20-game winner, but it's a lousy bet. You don't trade one of the top pitchers in MLB for a flier.

PaulDrake
12-07-2006, 09:43 AM
how do you explain the fact that he's being forced to learn new pitches to deal with his diminished velocity? His velocity was just fine in September. He went through a tired arm phase. It happens. I was very impressed that he was able to regain his speed and command so late in the year. Freddy doesn't always bring his A game or the best attitude, but I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if he remains a solid dependable starter for a few more years. It takes time to evaluate any trade, but as of right now I feel more than a little sick.

Hitmen77
12-07-2006, 09:44 AM
Kenny Williams is the GM, not Phil Rogers. :cool:

POTW!

spiffie
12-07-2006, 09:46 AM
he is 23 and has been compared to Garland. How old was Garland in his first solid year?
The only comparison between the two is that they are tall.

By Jon's 24th birthday he had already logged over 550 innings in the majors with a 4.60 ERA, around or slightly below the league average for that timeframe. Floyd has logged 110 innings of major league work with an ERA of 7. The development curve for Floyd, even at its most optimistic is much slower than Garland's.

fquaye149
12-07-2006, 09:46 AM
The comparisons with Garland don't follow. Garland had more tools and was good enough to break into the major leagues at 20 years of age. Floyd has a good curve ball but not much else. Sure it's POSSIBLE that Cooper will turn him into a 20-game winner, but it's a lousy bet. You don't trade one of the top pitchers in MLB for a flier.

He's got better stuff than Garland. He supposedly has Carpenter-like stuff. Hopefully, it won't take him as long as it took Carpenter to get good.

Gosh...I have a hard time deciding whom to believe, especially since I dont' really know much about Floyd.

however, forgive me if I really feel inclined to side with the position that's more in line with our GM, who knows a lot more about baseball than either you or me or Samram, ON2.

Ol' No. 2
12-07-2006, 09:46 AM
:KW GAVIN Floyd???? Wait. I thought we were getting CLIFF Floyd!!!!

fquaye149
12-07-2006, 09:47 AM
The only comparison between the two is that they are tall.

By Jon's 24th birthday he had already logged over 550 innings in the majors with a 4.60 ERA, around or slightly below the league average for that timeframe. Floyd has logged 110 innings of major league work with an ERA of 7. The development curve for Floyd, even at its most optimistic is much slower than Garland's.

Or that they are both high draft picks who feature a hard sinking two seamed fastball. And oh by the way...Floyd is 23 not 24.

Oh yeah, and that they are tall. that's the main thing I was thinking of:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

spiffie
12-07-2006, 09:51 AM
Gosh...I have a hard time deciding whom to believe, especially since I dont' really know much about Floyd.

however, forgive me if I really feel inclined to side with the position that's more in line with our GM, who knows a lot more about baseball than either you or me or Samram, ON2.

Here's a report from Floyd's work in the AFL from October of this year. http://www.baseballamerica.com/today/prospects/news/262712.html

Basically his fastball is 90-93, he has a huge curve, and a changeup that was called "good".

DaleJRFan
12-07-2006, 09:52 AM
So while the Sox are dumping rotation salary, division rivals KC are adding it:
http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/6247654

I slept on it... after reading that insane thread lastnight I decided to sleep on it before making reactionary comments. I slept on it, and I am still sick about the trade. It makes no sense on the surface. Like some have said, I sure hope that Don Cooper has a plan for this guy... or that this trade is a precursor to another deal... because if not, it was a salary dump.

But hey, at least we got something back for Freddy since they had no intentions of resigning him after 07.

spiffie
12-07-2006, 09:54 AM
Or that they are both high draft picks who feature a hard sinking two seamed fastball. And oh by the way...Floyd is 23 not 24.

Oh yeah, and that they are tall. that's the main thing I was thinking of:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:
Yup Floyd is 23. For less than 2 more months. By the time pitchers and catchers report he'll be 24.

So they supposedly throw a similar pitch and were drafted high. Is there anything at all in anything Floyd has done in his professional career to suggest a Garland-like career path, or are you basing this solely on his 2-seam fastball?

FedEx227
12-07-2006, 09:55 AM
The comparisons with Garland don't follow. Garland had more tools and was good enough to break into the major leagues at 20 years of age.

To be fair Floyd came up in 04 at the age of 21 and did a bit of pitching as well.

Garland was age 22 before he secured a spot in the everyday rotation, while he played a decent amount in 00 and 01 he was still bounced back between Charlotte and the Sox. In 2002 though, as a 22 year old he became the full-time starter.

I only wish we could have found a way to secure Cole Hamels from them.

DaleJRFan
12-07-2006, 09:56 AM
Here's a report from Floyd's work in the AFL from October of this year. http://www.baseballamerica.com/today/prospects/news/262712.html

Basically his fastball is 90-93, he has a huge curve, and a changeup that was called "good".

from that report....

....after he allowed seven runs on five hits, including two homers, in his last start against Phoenix.

:puking:

Hitmen77
12-07-2006, 09:56 AM
When I hear Gavin Floyd's name, for some reason these 2 images pop into my head: :tongue:

http://images.google.com/images?q=tbn:zgf8xo_IuPEG-M:http://www.ininternet.org/html/personaggi_simpson/professor_frink.bmp (http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.ininternet.org/html/personaggi_simpson/professor_frink.bmp&imgrefurl=http://www.ininternet.org/personaggi_simpson.htm&h=289&w=163&sz=93&hl=en&start=11&tbnid=zgf8xo_IuPEG-M:&tbnh=115&tbnw=65&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dprofessor%2Bfrink%2Bimages%26svnum%3D 10%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26rls%3DDKUS,DKUS:2006-40,DKUS:en%26sa%3DX) "Glavin!"

and...

http://images.google.com/images?q=tbn:GjML1PLxijRqIM:http://ia.imdb.com/media/imdb/01/I/53/96/12m.jpg (http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://ia.imdb.com/media/imdb/01/I/53/96/12m.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0533891/&h=123&w=100&sz=15&hl=en&start=101&tbnid=GjML1PLxijRqIM:&tbnh=89&tbnw=72&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dgavin%2Bmacleod%26start%3D100%26ndsp% 3D20%26svnum%3D10%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26rls%3DDKUS,D KUS:2006-40,DKUS:en%26sa%3DN)

fquaye149
12-07-2006, 09:57 AM
Yup Floyd is 23. For less than 2 more months. By the time pitchers and catchers report he'll be 24.

So they supposedly throw a similar pitch and were drafted high. Is there anything at all in anything Floyd has done in his professional career to suggest a Garland-like career path, or are you basing this solely on his 2-seam fastball?

I said he's been compared to Garland. Some reports I've read also said he has some mental issues.

I was merely trying to point out the kid is 24 and supposedly has great stuff.

Up until 2005 I didn't think Garland was worth much of a **** despite his .500 record. I think a lot of posters would agree. If I'm not mistaken, Garland was about 25 in 2004.

I don't think it's rational to call Floyd "failed" or a journeyman at the age of 23. YET.

BlackSox
12-07-2006, 09:58 AM
Here's a rumor that I am sure will go over like a lead balloon:


http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/sports/4385643.html

Ol' No. 2
12-07-2006, 10:00 AM
Here's a report from Floyd's work in the AFL from October of this year. http://www.baseballamerica.com/today/prospects/news/262712.html

Basically his fastball is 90-93, he has a huge curve, and a changeup that was called "good".The stuff is there, but questions about his mental makeup and confidence certainly persist.Well, THAT certainly sounds like Jon Garland. But these comparisons are just like comparing Anderson to Crede. Just because one player had a rough start and came around, that doesn't mean any player who starts out bad will turn into something good.

Mickster
12-07-2006, 10:00 AM
Here's a rumor that I am sure will go over like a lead balloon:


http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/sports/4385643.html

It is in WTS already. Someone claimed it is done and the ESPN update said that the Sox were trying but the deal is not done.

Flight #24
12-07-2006, 10:01 AM
Like pretty much everyone, I'm flummoxed, flabbergasted, and downright stupefied that this is the best return you could get on Garcia. Even if there's another trade in the works, it still seems like you could do better and then you could keep whatever the "extra" was that you got back in this alternate Freddy trade.

While I agree with the Floyd-Thornton analogy re: Coop's magic, to me Thornton was a great deal because he was traded for Joe Borchard. That's good trading, knowing that the guy's worth less to the other side and so you give them less. Here, Floyd HAS to turn it around or the Sox got screwed.

The only other thing I can think is that maybe we were all overvaluing Freddy. I mean he did decline last year (although he rebounded in Sept) and he is 1-year away from FA. We were hearing names like Danks, but those deals weren't done - so maybe that was what KW asked for & couldn't get. Much like the BloSox were asking for the moon for Manny but haven't gotten anything close (yet). The difference being that the Sox needed to make a move, which also may have played into the poor return.

As for the Rogers article, I simply can't believe that. I know KW said that, but he also said he wasn't going to resign Jon or Jose, and in the last week he said he'd be happy to keep all of the SPs. IMO it's posturing. Even if you figure that he can't keep the whole rotation together, you figure that the $10M savings could easily be applied to give significant raises to 1 or 2 of the SPs and keep them at market price. That to me is negotiations, plain and simple.

In fact, maybe that's another reason for the quick trigger on the trade - to send a message and try to get someone signed cheaper? Coz otherwise this is still a :?: to me.

Goose
12-07-2006, 10:01 AM
I have not read through this entire thread, so forgive me if this has already been mentioned, but...

Could it not be possible that KW made this deal in order to just move one or more of these young pitchers? I mean, Tampa would not take on a "big" contract the likes of a Freddy Garcia, but they would be willing to trade, say, a Carl Crawford, or another *star* player in their organization for young and affordable pitching.

Just a thought.

fquaye149
12-07-2006, 10:02 AM
Well, THAT certainly sounds like Jon Garland. But these comparisons are just like comparing Anderson to Crede. Just because one player had a rough start and came around, that doesn't mean any player who starts out bad will turn into something good.
Except Garland's rough start and coming around isn't too uncommon for a young, talented pitcher who starts off in the mlb at a young age and begins pitching better as he gets more experience....

Crede's experience was quite the opposite of Anderson's---he had a strong half a season in 2002, stunk it up (mostly) in 2003 and 2004, and then hit well in 2005.

So basically, what i'm saying is that you comparing Anderson-and-Crede to Garland-and-Floyd is kind of like comparing Anderson to Crede:redneck

Ol' No. 2
12-07-2006, 10:03 AM
Here's a rumor that I am sure will go over like a lead balloon:


http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/sports/4385643.htmlhttp://www1.istockphoto.com/file_thumbview_approve/210371/2/istockphoto_210371_goodbye_cruel_world_suicide_by_ fruit.jpg

tstrike2000
12-07-2006, 10:07 AM
I said he's been compared to Garland. Some reports I've read also said he has some mental issues.

Mental issues? Hopefully, he doesn't turn into Zach Grienke II: Electric Boogaloo.

PushinWeight
12-07-2006, 10:09 AM
So Williams wasn't going to "make a move, just to make a move" aye?!:angry:

fquaye149
12-07-2006, 10:09 AM
Mental issues? Hopefully, he doesn't turn into Zach Grienke II: Electric Boogaloo.

half of grienke's mental issues probably come from having to live and play in kansas city

Flight #24
12-07-2006, 10:11 AM
It is in WTS already. Someone claimed it is done and the ESPN update said that the Sox were trying but the deal is not done.

2005-6 KW: "It's all about the pitching"
2006 KW: "Given the #s that are flying around, I wish we could post one of our SPs, they'd fetch a ton. " "We'd happily go into 2007 with all of our guys"
2007 KW: "Screw it, let's dump our good, young pitchers signed to multiyear deals for non-prospects"

At least you could make the argument with Freddy that he's a year from FA and declining. Garland's still either improving or maintaining good performance, is signed for 2 years at dirt-cheap rates, and he's going for chump change?

Kenny - this wasn't the right time to try X. Not at all. I simply can't believe this is true, but then again, I can't beleive what they dealt Freddy for either.

PennStater98r
12-07-2006, 10:13 AM
I apologize if this has already been posted, but the only sense I can make of this is that MAYBE the Sox are trying to free up some money to make a run at Wells - and get an extension figured into that.

Perhaps we're going to see both a knuckleballer and this new kid... in the rotation. Rob Neyer has A LOT of good things to say about Charlie Haeger.

rdivaldi
12-07-2006, 10:17 AM
Here's a rumor that I am sure will go over like a lead balloon:


http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/sports/4385643.html

Willy Taveras & Taylor Bucholz?

I've got just the thing for that "journalist"

:bong:

SOecks
12-07-2006, 10:19 AM
Cooper is on ESPN 1000 right now and said he had NO DISCUSSION with KW about this trade. Why in the hell wouldn't he have been a big part of the "Sox Brass" reviewing who they were getting for Garcia? I can't understand this.

tstrike2000
12-07-2006, 10:20 AM
Like pretty much everyone, I'm flummoxed, flabbergasted, and downright stupefied that this is the best return you could get on Garcia. Even if there's another trade in the works, it still seems like you could do better and then you could keep whatever the "extra" was that you got back in this alternate Freddy trade.

That's the main reason for a lot of people are scratching their heads over this trade. I mentioned that Garcia was a frontline starter, which is overstating him, but he's still a solid #2 or #3 starter. For a proven workhorse starter, we should have gotten much more in the first place. Even if there's a "flip" trade, you trade one and keep the residual players. A huge gamble because you don't know how it's going to turn out with Gavin and Gio. And if Floyd is traded in a package deal for someone like a Baldelli or a Vernon Wells, we're down someone in the 'pen.

The only other thing I can think is that maybe we were all overvaluing Freddy. I mean he did decline last year (although he rebounded in Sept) and he is 1-year away from FA.

Freddy did have a crappy year until is final handful of starts, but everyone in the starting rotation was bad for a large portion of the year. Garland went from terrible to great for a couple of months, which is why his ERA was still around 4.50 for the year. Contreras led the league in losses after the All-Star break going into September, Vazquez had the dreaded 6th inning syndrome and Buehrle never amounted any positive consistancy the whole year. So based on that, I don't think we are overvaluing Freddy. He's still worth much more than we got for him.

Unregistered
12-07-2006, 10:21 AM
Here's a rumor that I am sure will go over like a lead balloon:


http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/sports/4385643.html

I can't see how trading Garland and Garcia for a few minor leaguers and Willy Tavarez will 1) help the team at all and 2) not start a riot.

If KW trades both those guys and THAT is what we get in return, he better have a GREAT ****ing "PART 2" to this plan... :(:

itsnotrequired
12-07-2006, 10:21 AM
Cooper is on ESPN 1000 right now and said he had NO DISCUSSION with KW about this trade. Why in the hell wouldn't he have been a big part of the "Sox Brass" reviewing who they were getting for Garcia? I can't understand this.

Whoa, that is really weird. I can't imagine KW would pull the trigger on a pitching trade of this magnitude without consulting Coop.

:?:

CLR01
12-07-2006, 10:23 AM
Whoa, that is really weird. I can't imagine KW would pull the trigger on a pitching trade of this magnitude without consulting Coop.

:?:


Kenny was drugged last night. :(:

Ol' No. 2
12-07-2006, 10:24 AM
I apologize if this has already been posted, but the only sense I can make of this is that MAYBE the Sox are trying to free up some money to make a run at Wells - and get an extension figured into that.

Perhaps we're going to see both a knuckleballer and this new kid... in the rotation. Rob Neyer has A LOT of good things to say about Charlie Haeger.That would make no sense. Wells is still cheap next year - it's after that he would get expensive. But Garcia would be off the books after next year anyway.

SOecks
12-07-2006, 10:30 AM
Whoa, that is really weird. I can't imagine KW would pull the trigger on a pitching trade of this magnitude without consulting Coop.

:?:

Coop said he's in Chicago now and found out about the trade from his wife telling him she "just saw it on TV". He said he saw Floyd a couple of years ago pitching and had some thoughts but NEVER discussed any of this recently with KW. What the hell?

Mickster
12-07-2006, 10:32 AM
Coop said he's in Chicago now and found out about the trade from his wife telling him she "just saw it on TV". He said he saw Floyd a couple of years ago pitching and had some thoughts but NEVER discussed any of this recently with KW. What the hell?

Leads me to believe that he will be flipped.

Unregistered
12-07-2006, 10:33 AM
Kenny was drugged last night. :(:

Or drunk.

http://img480.imageshack.us/img480/831/20030131williamsbd5.jpg
"<hic> I will too-rade you my entire pitching staff for one night with your <hic> beautiful wife. What?! What'd I say? Pat Gillick you're my best friend, man... we gotta stick together<hic> Seriously, you were there, bro... when all these guys told me I was a <hic> crappy GM... it was YOU, G-man... <zzzzzzzzzzz>"

patbooyah
12-07-2006, 10:37 AM
His velocity was just fine in September. He went through a tired arm phase. It happens. I was very impressed that he was able to regain his speed and command so late in the year. Freddy doesn't always bring his A game or the best attitude, but I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if he remains a solid dependable starter for a few more years. It takes time to evaluate any trade, but as of right now I feel more than a little sick.

did he regain his speed and command or did he just have a ridiculously easy schedule? with the exception of the twins and the angels(who he pitched well against even before his great september) he was handed september.

freddy garcia at 10mil/year is not the world's greatest bargain. trading gio and gavin for the right to pay him 10mil/year is an especially bad deal. i think kenny has done a fine job here.

spongyfungy
12-07-2006, 10:41 AM
I'm glad that sweaty is gone and that kw chose to keep javier. (or was forced to keep, whatever)

SABRSox
12-07-2006, 10:43 AM
did he regain his speed and command or did he just have a ridiculously easy schedule? with the exception of the twins and the angels(who he pitched well against even before his great september) he was handed september.

freddy garcia at 10mil/year is not the world's greatest bargain. trading gio and gavin for the right to pay him 10mil/year is an especially bad deal. i think kenny has done a fine job here.


In that vacuum I agree with you. I was at that Freddy 1 hitter, and it was just as much the Angels being a ****ty offensive team as it was Freddy being dominant. He had a nice, easy schedule at the end of last season. And that we got 2 prospects for him is a good deal.

Now, in the current market the way it is, we should have been able to get better prospects for Freddy. Maybe the Danks talk was a bit much, but we could have done better. Unless, of course, a team like TB wanted Floyd, and this deal was done to pry Baldelli away.

Now, if we're going young with starting pitching, Kenny HAS to wait until Zito signs (hopefully with Texas) and he can send Vasquez to the Mets for one or two of their young guys (hopefully Pelfrey and Milledge). I know that's a scary thought, dealing both Garcia and Vasquez, but I honestly think Haeger could pitch as well as Vasquez did last season.

I think people get distracted by this crazy market. Both Garcia and Vasquez were bad last year.

HotelWhiteSox
12-07-2006, 10:47 AM
I think people get distracted by this crazy market. Both Garcia and Vasquez were bad last year.

Freaking Gil Meche is about to get 12 mill a year. Unless this is a piece of a bigger deal this offseason (doubt it), I think he really should have waited

tstrike2000
12-07-2006, 10:51 AM
freddy garcia at 10mil/year is not the world's greatest bargain. trading gio and gavin for the right to pay him 10mil/year is an especially bad deal. i think kenny has done a fine job here.


I think there are more players, especially the recent free agent signings, that are horrible bargains than players that actually are bargains. As it stands, saving money may be the only positive to this. Otherwise, not a good job.

Unregistered
12-07-2006, 10:54 AM
I think there are more players, especially the recent free agent signings, that are horrible bargains than players that actually are bargains. As it stands, saving money may be the only positive to this. Otherwise, not a good job.

Is a "horrible bargain" anything like an "embarrassment of riches?" :?: :D:

Chw2007
12-07-2006, 10:59 AM
this trade makes no sense wat so ever. to me it's 50 times worse than the todd ritchie trade which was his previous bad blockbuster. this one can seriously get him fired if gonzalez and floyd don't turn out. i know garcia is a FA next year but gavin floyd and geo gonzalez. they both have no major league experience (although floyd pitched last year). floyd is an awesome prospect but to give up a guy like garcia and get no veterans back is just stupid. this trade could of been done in july before the trading deadline for god sakes. kenny i don't know wat the hell ur thinking but u've lost ur mind and ur skills. you could of at least gotten a veteran bullpen guy back or aaron rowand, but u really got nothing that will improve this club next year. let's face it after 2007 the sox are gonna rebuild. dye will be gone, thome will be old, the only guy u'll have is konkero on offense. not to mention crede's probably gonna go too. buehrle will be gone and so will contreras and garland in 2009. so you gotta build for now not later. i understand floyd is a power arm with a good curveball and cooper has been known to correct flame throwers, but nothing is guaranteed. i really hope i'm wrong and some one would beat me up when gavin floyd becomes a stud but it doesn't seem too bright right now.

CHISOXFAN13
12-07-2006, 11:02 AM
I just got back from a road trip basketball game (I do play by play for a local high school) and found out about this.

I am absolutely stunned.

After all this build up about 'how pitching is at a premium' the Sox deal a proven 200 inning guy and a consistent double figure winner for Gavin ****in Floyd and a player to be named later?

***?????

I'm at a loss for words over this.

Not Garcia for Floyd and Rowand...

Not Garcia for Floyd and Rollins...

But Garcia for Floyd and a minor league pitcher the Sox thought so little of they dealt him last off season.

Unfrigginbelieveable.

Lip

You are smarter than this Lip. The Sox were very high on Gio, yet he was a piece that got us JIM THOME.

Come on. Be mad, but don't just throw out stupid comments like that.

Lip Man 1
12-07-2006, 11:11 AM
Chw2007:

Paragraphs are your friend.

Chsox13:

I state again if he was so damn 'untouchable' why was he traded in the first place?

Kenny has dealt I recently read, in Rich Lindberg's 'Total White Sox' something like 18 'top prospects' over the past five years and only two, Rodriguez and Reed show anything close to major league potential.

That tells me two things.

1. KW is very, very smart about his minor league system.

2. The minor league system isn't very good to begin with.

Lip

soxrme
12-07-2006, 11:13 AM
What should Kenny have done MRM? All you do is pick him apart.
I would have thought we could have obtained a damn position player for a pitcher of Garcia's caliber, Vernon Wells comes to mind. This is a dump trade as far as I am concerned. Bad move

Flight #24
12-07-2006, 11:16 AM
Chsox13:

I state again if he was so damn 'untouchable' why was he traded in the first place?

Because you have to give something to get something. Gio being the primary component of a trade to get Jim Thome, himself a pretty valuable player, tells you that he has (or at least had) significant value. In fact, there were a number of reports ont he trade at the time that had the Phillies as getting the better of the deal because of Gio.

Kenny has dealt I recently read, in Rich Lindberg's 'Total White Sox' something like 18 'top prospects' over the past five years and only two, Rodriguez and Reed show anything close to major league potential.

That tells me two things.

1. KW is very, very smart about his minor league system.

2. The minor league system isn't very good to begin with.

Lip

#2 doesn't necessarily follow, because that same system has produced for the bigs - Buehrle, Garland, Crede, McCarthy, Rowand and has other traded guys that are too early in their career to rate but who are considered top prospects in Young, Gio, Rupe.

So while you can say that Kenny has been smart about who he trades, the fact that he's kept a fair number of guys who've made it to the bigs as successful players tells you that the system wasn't all that bad.

roadrunner
12-07-2006, 11:18 AM
this trade underscores how bad of a trade the deal for thome turned out to be. basically we traded one of our studs and our center fielder for a guy we already had - frank thomas. u can't tell me we wouldn't be better off if we had just given him a contract. said contract would have been less then thome's and we would have rowand, garcia and gonzalez.

Lip Man 1
12-07-2006, 11:32 AM
Flight:

Possibly... still it is a fact that in five years time very few of the 'traded prospects' has turned into a regular contributor for anyone (and there were some pretty bad teams involved in those deals)

The law of averages would say that surely one or two of those guys would come through, make Kenny look bad and have stat heads like jeremy 1 pontificating how Kenny got screwed.

Lip

CLR01
12-07-2006, 11:34 AM
this trade underscores how bad of a trade the deal for thome turned out to be. basically we traded one of our studs and our center fielder for a guy we already had - frank thomas. u can't tell me we wouldn't be better off if we had just given him a contract. said contract would have been less then thome's and we would have rowand, garcia and gonzalez.


And we would still be sitting here wondering if the Sox missing the playoffs last year was a fluke. How much of Thomes contract are the Sox paying?

SOecks
12-07-2006, 11:35 AM
this trade underscores how bad of a trade the deal for thome turned out to be. basically we traded one of our studs and our center fielder for a guy we already had - frank thomas. u can't tell me we wouldn't be better off if we had just given him a contract. said contract would have been less then thome's and we would have rowand, garcia and gonzalez.

I think this is a good point, but you left off one intangible that KW and possibly many others just wanted to be done dealing with Frank. They didn't want him on the team anymore no matter what.

Hitmen77
12-07-2006, 11:38 AM
this trade underscores how bad of a trade the deal for thome turned out to be. basically we traded one of our studs and our center fielder for a guy we already had - frank thomas. u can't tell me we wouldn't be better off if we had just given him a contract. said contract would have been less then thome's and we would have rowand, garcia and gonzalez.

And we would still be sitting here wondering if the Sox missing the playoffs last year was a fluke. How much of Thomes contract are the Sox paying?

....and right now we'd have no DH with Thomas going to some other team for $18 million.

SOecks
12-07-2006, 11:40 AM
....and right now we'd have no DH with Thomas going to some other team for $18 million.

But then we'd be able to sign Bonds as our DH. That would be awesome...

Flight #24
12-07-2006, 11:41 AM
Flight:

Possibly... still it is a fact that in five years time very few of the 'traded prospects' has turned into a regular contributor for anyone (and there were some pretty bad teams involved in those deals)

The law of averages would say that surely one or two of those guys would come through, make Kenny look bad and have stat heads like jeremy 1 pontificating how Kenny got screwed.

Lip

Not necessarily. You should really separate 2 things: 1) players the Sox organization develops and 2) players they trade away & for.

For #1, you have the guys I mentioned. I have no idea what the "average" number of players developed is for an organization, but it doesn't seem out of line for it to be 1-2/yr. Kenny's been on the job for 6 years, and by my count he's got 5 guys I mentioned off the top of my head. That would be below average, but not horrid.

For #2, he could be an unqualified success. Not only does he trade away guys that might seem attractive, but really aren't, he also finds guys in other systems that turn out well (a long list including Marte, Cotts, Thornton, Jenks, Uribe, Ozuna, etc.).

To me, the two-way aspect of #2 - that he trades guys that don't do anything and trades for guys that pan out, make it unlikely to be luck.

PeteWard
12-07-2006, 11:44 AM
Then answer me these three questions:

1. Why do businesses often reinvest profits in one form or another (R&D, executive bonuses, ad campaigns, etc) with the expectation of future earnings in return?

2. Why did the Phillies just trade away a big contract in July and then go out and spend A LOT of money in December? Do you honestly think the would have signed Eaton and added Freddy if they had not freed up money from trading Abreau? Or how about the White Sox two years ago? They did the same exact thing.

3. If you planned today to sell one of your comapny's assets 9 months from now, would you not have a plan in place to spend/invest that money elsewhere?



KW and JR are on the record saying that when the opportunity to sign Iguchi came about 2 years ago, they went around to each department in the organization (Brooks was specifically mentioned) to adjust budgets to find an extra million dollars. If the Sox now think that some MLB player salary may be worth investing in the scouting system, such a theory would fall under the same principle as the Iguchi signing.

I have to say that there is nothing more depressing than guys like you taking all the fun out of the game we love by putting such a depressing corporate face on it, no matter how accurate you might be. Have you ever hit a baseball in your life? Great feeling.Beats the helll out of balancing a spreadsheet.

fquaye149
12-07-2006, 11:46 AM
I have to say that there is nothing more depressing than guys like you taking all the fun out of the game we love by putting such a depressing corporate face on it, no matter how accurate you might be. Have you ever hit a baseball in your life? Great feeling.Beats the helll out of balancing a spreadsheet.

Good point.

Here's my analysis of the trade, keeping your concerns in mind:

"crack of the bat. Peanuts. The smell of summer wafting through the fresh cut grass. Remembering how my dad took me to see Frank Thomas smashing line drives over the left field wall. High school varsity ball. Remembering how good it felt to make a perfect throw to turn the 3-6-3 double play.

Hit and run!"

CLR01
12-07-2006, 11:49 AM
[quote=roadrunner;1433992basically we traded one of our studs and our center fielder for a guy we already had - frank thomas. u can't tell me we wouldn't be better off if we had just given him a contract. said contract would have been less then thome's and we would have rowand, garcia and gonzalez.[/quote]

Okay so the Sox traded 1 year of Garcia, 3 years of Rowand and Haigwood for 4 years of Thome, 5-6 years of Floyd and $22million.

The Sox are paying 31 million for 4 years of Thome. Frank would not have been much cheaper.

fquaye149
12-07-2006, 11:55 AM
Okay so the Sox traded 1 year of Garcia, 3 years of Rowand and Haigwood for 4 years of Thome, 5-6 years of Floyd and $22million.

The Sox are paying 31 million for 4 years of Thome. Frank would not have been much cheaper.

What you forgot is that going into the 2006 season everyone expected Frank to produce at the level he just did....

I don't see why Kenny Williams didn't expect Frank to put up the exact same numbers as Jim Thome this year.

Also, we probably would have been even better with Frank, because Frank started out hot in 2006, and would have carried our team through those early months when everyone else played like ****. Thome really didn't help us out...he just got hot the exact same time Dye and Crede and the rest got hot.

Thome was definitely not valuable to the 2006 team.

Forgive me if any of my facts are incorrect. I'm looking back at last offseason through the same lenses as Roadrunner

PeteWard
12-07-2006, 11:56 AM
When I hear Gavin Floyd's name, for some reason these 2 images pop into my head: :tongue:

http://images.google.com/images?q=tbn:zgf8xo_IuPEG-M:http://www.ininternet.org/html/personaggi_simpson/professor_frink.bmp (http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.ininternet.org/html/personaggi_simpson/professor_frink.bmp&imgrefurl=http://www.ininternet.org/personaggi_simpson.htm&h=289&w=163&sz=93&hl=en&start=11&tbnid=zgf8xo_IuPEG-M:&tbnh=115&tbnw=65&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dprofessor%2Bfrink%2Bimages%26svnum%3D 10%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26rls%3DDKUS,DKUS:2006-40,DKUS:en%26sa%3DX) "Glavin!"

and...

http://images.google.com/images?q=tbn:GjML1PLxijRqIM:http://ia.imdb.com/media/imdb/01/I/53/96/12m.jpg (http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://ia.imdb.com/media/imdb/01/I/53/96/12m.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0533891/&h=123&w=100&sz=15&hl=en&start=101&tbnid=GjML1PLxijRqIM:&tbnh=89&tbnw=72&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dgavin%2Fingernails on a blackboardleod%26start%3D100%26ndsp%3D20%26svnum%3 D10%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26rls%3DDKUS,DKUS:2006-40,DKUS:en%26sa%3DN)


oh for christ sakes you can come up with a better oldTV reference. THE Floyd !!!http://www.tvacres.com/images/lawson_floyd2.jpg
.

Zisk77
12-07-2006, 11:57 AM
The whole purpose of trading a starter was to open room for Brandon and the very first thing you say after the trade is Brandon is competing with the guy we traded for.

Both those guys will hold runners on better than Freddy :rolleyes:

CLR01
12-07-2006, 12:02 PM
What you forgot is that going into the 2006 season everyone expected Frank to produce at the level he just did....

I don't see why Kenny Williams didn't expect Frank to put up the exact same numbers as Jim Thome this year.

Also, we probably would have been even better with Frank, because Frank started out hot in 2006, and would have carried our team through those early months when everyone else played like ****. Thome really didn't help us out...he just got hot the exact same time Dye and Crede and the rest got hot.

Thome was definitely not valuable to the 2006 team.

Forgive me if any of my facts are incorrect. I'm looking back at last offseason through the same lenses as Roadrunner

I'm glad I actually took the time to read through that whole post before I responded. :cool:

PeteWard
12-07-2006, 12:02 PM
Both those guys will hold runners on better than Freddy :rolleyes:

There's an upside finally.God he drove me nuts with his arrogance in ignoring the baserunner..and it cost the Sox a game or two. Still, I dont see how this will make things better. And JC was just as bad. Oh and Bobby as well. Maybe this is on Coop.

SouthSide_HitMen
12-07-2006, 12:14 PM
I have to say that there is nothing more depressing than guys like you taking all the fun out of the game we love by putting such a depressing corporate face on it, no matter how accurate you might be. Have you ever hit a baseball in your life? Great feeling.Beats the helll out of balancing a spreadsheet.

Financial considerations directly effect the players a club can place on the field. Money is a finite resource and each team is constrained by the amount of revenue it can bring it which makes discussion of the financial aspect of this trade relevent, IMO. It may be boring to some fans but it must be taken into consideration when evaluating a deal.

PeteWard
12-07-2006, 12:22 PM
Financial considerations directly effect the players a club can place on the field. Money is a finite resource and each team is constrained by the amount of revenue it can bring it which makes discussion of the financial aspect of this trade relevent, IMO. It may be boring to some fans but it must be taken into consideration when evaluating a deal.


I'll forgive you your Scrooge-ian outlook on the game because of your tribute signature to our glorious General. I hope you saw what he said regarding catching the Kentucky Fuhrer today. It was classic Bobby.

sweetjpo
12-07-2006, 12:26 PM
I think with the money freed up by getting rid of freddy, we can actually sign crede to a long term contract. Before KW was worried about the market for crede so he was hesitant to offer a deal. I would not be surprised to see crede get a long term deal in the next couple days.

And I am pissed that while dealing with philly, why not get rowand out of the deal too?

SouthSide_HitMen
12-07-2006, 12:27 PM
I'll forgive you your Scrooge-ian outlook on the game because of your tribute signature to our glorious General. I hope you saw what he said regarding catching the Kentucky Fuhrer today. It was classic Bobby.

I actually had the quote in my sig but replaced it due to the big White Sox news (as well as the fact Bobby and the Red Raiders wanted to downplay this achievement).

"The thing I remember about Adolph Rupp is that one time I scored seven points against the ornery son of a bitch to help beat him," Knight said, referring to Ohio State's 87-74 victory over the Wildcats in the 1961 NCAA tournament. "That's a lot bigger in my memory than this."

BTW - ilsox7, who you were addressing with your original post, is also a big IU / Bobby Knight fan. :D:

I'm thinking about heading to Lubbock for 880!!!

Juice16
12-07-2006, 12:43 PM
I think with the money freed up by getting rid of freddy, we can actually sign crede to a long term contract. Before KW was worried about the market for crede so he was hesitant to offer a deal. I would not be surprised to see crede get a long term deal in the next couple days.

And I am pissed that while dealing with philly, why not get rowand out of the deal too?

this is my biggest problem too. Williams metnioned the talks about getting aaron back. you mean to tell me he could'nt be part of this deal? Instead we get what we got back. This sucks.