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jabrch
12-05-2006, 12:27 AM
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White Sox GM Ken Williams has reportedly checked into Vernon Wells' availability.

The White Sox make as much sense as any team for Wells, especially since they have the starting pitcher and young center fielder the Jays are likely to want in return. Toronto would probably prefer Jon Garland to Freddy Garcia or Javier Vazquez. If the Jays like Brian Anderson, perhaps there's a slight chance something could happen.
Source: Chicago Tribune (http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/cubs/cs-061204sox,1,1986920.story?coll=cs-cubs-headlines)

As long as we could get Wells to agree to stick around for a while, I'd be thrilled to make a move like this.

MUsoxfan
12-05-2006, 12:41 AM
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As long as we could get Wells to agree to stick around for a while, I'd be thrilled to make a move like this.

I'm with you. For Wells, they can have any of those 3 starters and Anderson. As long as Wells agrees to an extension I'd LOVE it

buehrle4cy05
12-05-2006, 12:44 AM
I'm with you. For Wells, they can have any of those 3 starters and Anderson. As long as Wells agrees to an extension I'd LOVE it

And that's probably what it would take to get him.

I'd like this move because after it we would still have Crede, so if need be we could still trade him for pitching. But man, Vernon Wells...:praying::drool:

soltrain21
12-05-2006, 12:45 AM
Get em, Kenny.

getonbckthr
12-05-2006, 01:35 AM
Vernon is a real nice player however no thank you. He is not worth what it will take to get him or the 18 million a year it will to resign him, which you have to if you give up what you have to.

kittle42
12-05-2006, 02:23 AM
Vernon is a real nice player however no thank you. He is not worth what it will take to get him or the 18 million a year it will to resign him, which you have to if you give up what you have to.

Judging by the market, it may be much easier to be "worth" 18 million than it used to be. The Sox cannot sit back as they traditionally have done just because the numbers are getting inflated. I didn't renew my season tickets to watch the most fiscally responsible team money can buy.

dcb56
12-05-2006, 02:37 AM
Vernon is a real nice player however no thank you. He is not worth what it will take to get him or the 18 million a year it will to resign him, which you have to if you give up what you have to.


What are you talking about? I'm sick of this "So and so isn't worth X amount of dollars" crap. **** that, my season tickets went up by nearly 20% this season, so the White Sox had better be ready to pony up some dough to improve the team, especially if they can land one of the premier CF's in the game.
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spiffie
12-05-2006, 02:41 AM
Judging by the amrket, it may be much easier to be "worth" 18 million than it used to be. The Sox cannot sit back as they traditionally have done just because the numbers are getting inflated. I didn't renew my season tickets to watch the most fiscally responsible team money can buy.
Don't you know the Sox plan to counter the Cubs annual winning of the Attendance Trophy by taking home the George Halas Memorial Fiscal Responsibility Trophy?

Grzegorz
12-05-2006, 05:40 AM
I'd like this move because after it we would still have Crede, so if need be we could still trade him for pitching.

If you move Crede who plays third? Has nothing been learned from sticking a rookie into a starting role on a team that is supposedly a primary challenger for the WS championship?

Oh, maybe Fields is light years ahead of Anderson in terms of maturity and development.

Nope, I do not think so...

The Chicago White Sox are not strong enough to move key components and continue on their march to a WS championship.

Where is this eighteen million dollar per year figure coming from? That is high for any player at anytime.

veeter
12-05-2006, 07:10 AM
Get em, Kenny.Jon Garland was the Sox best pitcher last year. He's heading into the point in his career where he could really blossom into something special, or at the very least, maintain where he is. Haven't we learned how valuable pitching is? Wells is great, but I'm not ready to believe McCarthy will step in and win 18 games next year, like Jon has the last two. Do the deal if you don't give up Garland or Buerhle.

soxinem1
12-05-2006, 08:14 AM
Jon Garland was the Sox best pitcher last year. He's heading into the point in his career where he could really blossom into something special, or at the very least, maintain where he is. Haven't we learned how valuable pitching is? Wells is great, but I'm not ready to believe McCarthy will step in and win 18 games next year, like Jon has the last two. Do the deal if you don't give up Garland or Buerhle.

If they can get Wells, ANY of the starters are up for grabs, if you ask me. Especially if a contract extension comes with it.

Remember, the Sox are a Dye injury away from the worst offensive OF in MLB. Right now, the cubs OF will generate far more offense than ours.

jabrch
12-05-2006, 08:21 AM
Jon Garland was the Sox best pitcher last year. He's heading into the point in his career where he could really blossom into something special,

Gar had a 4.5+ ERA and a 1.35+ WHIP. The 18 wins are nice - but that's not enough for me to hold back trading him if there is a deal that can add value to us. In particular, a 5 tool CF.


As far as the cost, 18mm per for 5 years is about right. I have no problem spending big bucks on top tier players. I'd hate to see us waste big bucks on mediocre guys. Every year Wells has gotten better. He's still under 30, and in his prime. Last year he had an awesome season (.303/.357/.542 with 32 HR and 17 SB while playing solid D in CF). His offensive numbers might be even better in USCF. I could see him hitting well in our order with the other bats we have.

Domeshot17
12-05-2006, 08:24 AM
Wells is probably the 2nd best CF in baseball, behind only Carlos Beltran. If you could get him for a package of Garcia Anderson and a prospect, you have to do it. The time is basically here where teams have more money, and salaries are going to go up again. Inflation has hit baseball, and with Soriano and Beltran, Wells pretty much has a precedent. 5-6 years at 17-18 per. He is more worth it then Soriano.

Jurr
12-05-2006, 08:26 AM
Jon Garland was the Sox best pitcher last year. He's heading into the point in his career where he could really blossom into something special, or at the very least, maintain where he is. Haven't we learned how valuable pitching is? Wells is great, but I'm not ready to believe McCarthy will step in and win 18 games next year, like Jon has the last two. Do the deal if you don't give up Garland or Buerhle.
No...people want to see homers, not wins.

I would trade Garland, Buehrle and Crede for Manny Ramirez right now.

People get so damn caught up in making a big splash in free agency that they lose sight of the big picture, and that is the fact that the Sox more likely than not lost last year because the pitching was absolutely gassed from the 2005 campaign. They all pitched a LOT of extra innings.

What the **** is wrong with adding some good relief pitching at a good price and adding some depth? This team won 90 games with a worn out pitching staff! I do understand the Crede dilemma. Boras will be out for blood on that deal, and Joe deserves a payday, especially if he has another season like he did last year. He's probably going to have to leave, ushering in the Fields era. It's tough to swallow having to transition a young player into a role and deal with his growing pains (Crede, Rowand, Anderson come to mind), but it's what the good teams have always done. They phase in the good minor league talent in with the free agent pickups.

On that note, if KW dumps Buehrle, Garland, Contreras, or Garcia (unless he knows that Freddy's arm is now a bowl of chili), he's robbing Peter to pay Paul. He's got pitching that other teams only dream about, a roster that's signed up but not costing these ridiculous prices, and a team that is rested and should be pretty damn hungry after watching two division rivals play in the playoffs.

Get some bullpen arms, let this group of guys have another season together, and let the other idiot GM's think they've become some goliath because they added a big, overpriced bat that may very well hit a huge slump or get injured.

samram
12-05-2006, 09:07 AM
Wells is probably the 2nd best CF in baseball, behind only Carlos Beltran. If you could get him for a package of Garcia Anderson and a prospect, you have to do it. The time is basically here where teams have more money, and salaries are going to go up again. Inflation has hit baseball, and with Soriano and Beltran, Wells pretty much has a precedent. 5-6 years at 17-18 per. He is more worth it then Soriano.

Agreed. They may want Garland more than the others, but if you can sweeten the pot so they take Garcia or Vazquez and a prospect, that works.

gr8mexico
12-05-2006, 09:28 AM
I hope the Sox can pull this one off. Does anyone think the Blue Jays would accept an offer of Javier Vasquez, Brian Anderson and Alex Cintron for Vernon Wells. That would fill all there needs. But nothing will happend until Ted Lilly sign with a team. That why it would help us a lot if the Cubs do sign Lilly. It would put extra pressure on the Jays to make something happend.

1917
12-05-2006, 09:39 AM
THis is really a no brainer. Wells is a power hitting, Gold Glover (I think), with good speed. This would be huge. But I like the quoate in the Times that KW is just going t sit back and wait for the FA pool to dry up and wait for the phone to ring. I know we all want something to talk about, but good things come to those who wait.

cws05champ
12-05-2006, 09:45 AM
No...people want to see homers, not wins.

I would trade Garland, Buehrle and Crede for Manny Ramirez right now.

People get so damn caught up in making a big splash in free agency that they lose sight of the big picture, and that is the fact that the Sox more likely than not lost last year because the pitching was absolutely gassed from the 2005 campaign. They all pitched a LOT of extra innings.

What the **** is wrong with adding some good relief pitching at a good price and adding some depth? This team won 90 games with a worn out pitching staff! I do understand the Crede dilemma. Boras will be out for blood on that deal, and Joe deserves a payday, especially if he has another season like he did last year. He's probably going to have to leave, ushering in the Fields era. It's tough to swallow having to transition a young player into a role and deal with his growing pains (Crede, Rowand, Anderson come to mind), but it's what the good teams have always done. They phase in the good minor league talent in with the free agent pickups.

On that note, if KW dumps Buehrle, Garland, Contreras, or Garcia (unless he knows that Freddy's arm is now a bowl of chili), he's robbing Peter to pay Paul. He's got pitching that other teams only dream about, a roster that's signed up but not costing these ridiculous prices, and a team that is rested and should be pretty damn hungry after watching two division rivals play in the playoffs.

Get some bullpen arms, let this group of guys have another season together, and let the other idiot GM's think they've become some goliath because they added a big, overpriced bat that may very well hit a huge slump or get injured.


Couldn't have said it better myself!

WhiteSox5187
12-05-2006, 09:51 AM
It looks like it's coming down to Rowand or Wells, now I love love love Rowand. He was one of my favorite players with the Sox and I still rooted (odd word) for him when he was with the Phils. But we need a guy like Wells more than Rowand. Wells can hit for power and he has speed. Oh yea, and he's a gold glove winner. Rowand is fast but isn't the on base prescence that Wells is, and Rowand has a bit of pop, but isn't anywhere near as good as Wells. And Rowand can play CF with the best of them, but he's a walking injury liability. I don't even know how he manages to get health insurance much less avoid the DL (although he was a frequent guest of the DL in Philly), Wells it seems to me doesn't get hurt as much. So I'd take Wells over Rowand in a heartbeat, sorry Aaron.

Gammons Peter
12-05-2006, 09:55 AM
ESPN has a story about Wells being the next 20 million dollar man. I'd say that rules us out of signing him to any kind of extention

caulfield12
12-05-2006, 09:58 AM
I definitely think KW would be looking at Rowand as the fourth OF, with Anderson coming in as the starter.

But Rowand obviously would be able to step in and play capably, unlike Rob M. defensively.

Once again, have to dump Gload/Ozuna/Cintron/Rob M. to make any sense.

With the Wells deal, I think we could get away with Garcia/Vazquez AND Anderson AND Haeger. Or instead of Haeger, one of the four mentioned, although Cintron is pretty much the same as their other two shortstops, not a clear starter in the majors.

I'm not too keen on selling Contreras or Buehrle for less than they might be worth.

samram
12-05-2006, 09:59 AM
It looks like it's coming down to Rowand or Wells, now I love love love Rowand. He was one of my favorite players with the Sox and I still rooted (odd word) for him when he was with the Phils. But we need a guy like Wells more than Rowand. Wells can hit for power and he has speed. Oh yea, and he's a gold glove winner. Rowand is fast but isn't the on base prescence that Wells is, and Rowand has a bit of pop, but isn't anywhere near as good as Wells. And Rowand can play CF with the best of them, but he's a walking injury liability. I don't even know how he manages to get health insurance much less avoid the DL (although he was a frequent guest of the DL in Philly), Wells it seems to me doesn't get hurt as much. So I'd take Wells over Rowand in a heartbeat, sorry Aaron.

Well yeah. It's not really coming down to them. It's more like if KW could get Wells, he would get him, and if he can't, maybe he would look into reacquiring Rowand.

On Philly sports radio this morning, some dope reporting from the winter meetings, saying he had snooped around, had somehow come up with the Sox dealing Garcia to Philly for Rowand and Lieber. Someone's got to tell that guy to crush some tinfoil because he is getting some bad reception.

infohawk
12-05-2006, 10:11 AM
I think that any move that has us sending more than one player for one player in return is questionable, unless it's for someone like A-Rod. The way the market is taking shape, I fully expect one of our pitchers and perhaps one other player to bring us a haul. I also really believe that any deal must, absolutely must, get us a young pitcher or two in return. Again, the only exception might be for A-Rod, whom I think would be a nice addition but is certainly not as big a need as a young starter(s) and a bullpen arm or two. I guess I really value having a couple major league ready arms in the minors (or another good, young pitcher in the rotation) over position players.

All that said, Vernon Well would help this team. I just don't like the idea of possibly parting with one of our best bargaining chips, a pitcher, to get a centerfielder in the last year of his contract.

areilly
12-05-2006, 10:24 AM
ESPN has a story about Wells being the next 20 million dollar man. I'd say that rules us out of signing him to any kind of extention

You never know. KW's not unwilling to pay for top-tier talent, and at any rate there will be a day when the Sox, like every other team, are paying someone that much money.

Remember also there was a time not too long ago when the Sox had the two highest-paid players in baseball in the same lineup.

Ol' No. 2
12-05-2006, 10:42 AM
ESPN has a story about Wells being the next 20 million dollar man. I'd say that rules us out of signing him to any kind of extentionThis is the basic problem. How much are you willing to give up for one year of Vernon Wells? If Kenny gives up a pitcher, it's not going to be Garland. He's signed for two more years at a below-market price.

I'm sure Kenny has inquired about Vernon Wells, but I'm equally sure he's inquired about a lot of players. He wants to know what his options are and to assess the value of what he has to trade.

chisoxmike
12-05-2006, 10:50 AM
Get some bullpen arms, let this group of guys have another season together, and let the other idiot GM's think they've become some goliath because they added a big, overpriced bat that may very well hit a huge slump or get injured.

I agree. I think this team has one or two more seasons to do something. The Sox will never pay for FA. I rather not have them overpay for average players like a lot of teams are, but I could never see the Sox ever outbidding another team for anybody. That is going to cost them in a few years.

Jjav829
12-05-2006, 11:00 AM
This is the basic problem. How much are you willing to give up for one year of Vernon Wells? If Kenny gives up a pitcher, it's not going to be Garland. He's signed for two more years at a below-market price.

I'm sure Kenny has inquired about Vernon Wells, but I'm equally sure he's inquired about a lot of players. He wants to know what his options are and to assess the value of what he has to trade.

This was my initial reaction, as well. But check out this quote from a White Sox official.

"What's not to like about Wells?" one White Sox official said. "He does everything in the game right. The only thing that worries me is that we have talked about it so much, I think if it was going to happen, it would have already happened."
It makes you wonder how long they have actually been discussing this deal. Just that one line makes it seem like this move is one the Sox are generally interested in doing.

I really like Wells. Who doesn't, I guess, right? But I, like a few others, can't help but wonder if acquiring Wells would be the best use of our resources. I don't want another year of having two automatic outs at the bottom of the lineup. Obviously Wells would solve that problem. But that leaves us struggling to find another reliever. I would almost rather see the KW find a package that includes a good reliever and a starting pitching prospect (that Otsuka and Danks rumor sounded good, though I don't know if the Rangers would do that).

White Sox Randy
12-05-2006, 11:05 AM
Kenny should stick with what he said that he would do - trade pitching for pitching.

The Sox would be better off holding up some team for 2 or 3 top pitching prospects.

The Sox could sign Wells as a F.A. after the season and give up nothing to get him.

If they could extend him long term now, as part of the deal, I would still want a pitchimg prospect back from Toronto to give up a starting pitcher and Anderson.

Ol' No. 2
12-05-2006, 11:07 AM
This was my initial reaction, as well. But check out this quote from a White Sox official.


It makes you wonder how long they have actually been discussing this deal. Just that one line makes it seem like this move is one the Sox are generally interested in doing.

I really like Wells. Who doesn't, I guess, right? But I, like a few others, can't help but wonder if acquiring Wells would be the best use of our resources. I don't want another year of having two automatic outs at the bottom of the lineup. Obviously Wells would solve that problem. But that leaves us struggling to find another reliever. I would almost rather see the KW find a package that includes a good reliever and a starting pitching prospect (that Otsuka and Danks rumor sounded good, though I don't know if the Rangers would do that).I'd be willing to bet that Kenny has at least 3-4 trade scenarios brewing at the same time. And by scenarios, I mean groupings of multiple trades to get what he wants. When it gets that complicated, you make lots of inquiries. All of them are serious, but not all of them will come to fruition.

If they get Wells for Anderson + a starter, that frees up significant money for 2007 to spend on other needs. Who knows what else he has planned to go with it? Just like the CLee trade, you can't look at any single deal in isolation.

Flight #24
12-05-2006, 11:15 AM
It makes you wonder how long they have actually been discussing this deal. Just that one line makes it seem like this move is one the Sox are generally interested in doing.


That could be true, but I'd bet that's before the market for pitching absolutely exploded. The Jays right now are looking at a)can they resign Wells in a year and b)can they get a solid pitcher having lost at least Lilly? For a team that feels like it's a playoff contender after finishing 2d in the ALE, I could easily see them deciding that their resources are better allocated to pitching and keeping said pitching. Especially when it's going to be pretty tough to outslug the Spankees but not that hard to outpitch them.

It's an interesting conundrum KW has: Trade for stud pitching prospects with less '07 impact but incredible value beyond that or trade for on-field studs that have significant '07 impact but will probably require another payroll bump from '07 to '08 to keep everyone together?:dunno:

One thing for sure: If they trade for Danks/Masset, Buehrle's almost certainly a goner after '07 unless he takes a Carpenter-like deal (which is a steal for the Cards, IMO). In which case, they'd just trade one of the other 3 vets who would be even more under-market in terms of salary.

Flight #24
12-05-2006, 11:22 AM
If they get Wells for Anderson + a starter, that frees up significant money for 2007 to spend on other needs. Who knows what else he has planned to go with it? Just like the CLee trade, you can't look at any single deal in isolation.

Only problem is that the longer you wait, the fewer choices you have to spend $$$ on in FA. If you're focused primarily on an LHRP, it's guys like Ron Villone, and I don't believe the cost of a guy like that is going to depend on any salary savings you get via trade.

Jjav829
12-05-2006, 11:37 AM
I'd be willing to bet that Kenny has at least 3-4 trade scenarios brewing at the same time. And by scenarios, I mean groupings of multiple trades to get what he wants. When it gets that complicated, you make lots of inquiries. All of them are serious, but not all of them will come to fruition.

Right. Maybe I misinterpreted what you originally said, but it seemed to me like you were implying that KW may not be completely serious about Wells, but rather just inquiring to see what is available and at what cost. That quote seems to imply that this Wells trade is something the Sox have spent significant time exploring, not simply a one-call-to-gage-value type of thing.

If they get Wells for Anderson + a starter, that frees up significant money for 2007 to spend on other needs. Who knows what else he has planned to go with it? Just like the CLee trade, you can't look at any single deal in isolation.

Obviously we always have to wait to see the entire offseason, but I'm not expecting the Sox to be serious contenders for any significant free agent. Maybe we'll see a Russ Springer or Toby Hall signing, but other than that, I don't see KW getting too involved in free agency. So the trade market is the only way we are going to improve from the outside.

Ol' No. 2
12-05-2006, 11:48 AM
Only problem is that the longer you wait, the fewer choices you have to spend $$$ on in FA. If you're focused primarily on an LHRP, it's guys like Ron Villone, and I don't believe the cost of a guy like that is going to depend on any salary savings you get via trade.But the dollars spent don't necessarily have to be on a FA. They could take on salary in a trade, and the ability to do so could significantly improve their bargaining position.

Flight #24
12-05-2006, 12:06 PM
But the dollars spent don't necessarily have to be on a FA. They could take on salary in a trade, and the ability to do so could significantly improve their bargaining position.

True, I just don't see that happening for a good arm. Those are too valuable, so unless they're in some way tainted, you're not getting one in a salary dump. The dumps are mostly for older, high-salaried but in some way flawed players.

soxinem1
12-05-2006, 12:11 PM
All in all, I think the only way we get Wells is if the Jays give him away.

I think Coco Crisp is the best and most realistic piece out there that may really help the Sox, based on what it looks like the White Sox want to spend money on.

If a blockbuster trade were to happen, like Jimmy Rollins and Pat Burrell coming here for a starter and two other players, that may be more realistic.

The Phils would love to dump Burrell's salary and if Rollins were able to be pried away, tha may be the cost, ala the Burnett and Lowell trade BOS and FLA made.

But based on their production, it would be better than what the FA's are getting. We'd then have BA and Pods fight it out for CF.

SABRSox
12-05-2006, 12:18 PM
All in all, I think the only way we get Wells is if the Jays give him away.

I think Coco Crisp is the best and most realistic piece out there that may really help the Sox, based on what it looks like the White Sox want to spend money on.

I don't see Coco Crisp happening. The Red Sox are trying to deal Manny away, and if that happens, they can't deal Crisp away or they've lost their entire outfield. (Nixon is a FA)

You're also forgetting that Crisp is under contract until 2009 (club option in 2010) and that he's a bargain at the moment, considering the awful contract Colletti gave Pierre.

It would probably cost more to get Crisp than Wells, given the risk involved with Wells leaving at the end of the season. Even if Wells walks after 07, it would still be worth it, because you essentially traded for a year of him and financial flexibility for 07 for a SP you didn't have room for, and a young CF whom, despite the fact I think will be an above average ballplayer, isn't ready to contribute everday to a championship contending team.

And who knows, maybe KW finds the money to sign Wells to an extension.

dcb56
12-05-2006, 12:31 PM
Don't you know the Sox plan to counter the Cubs annual winning of the Attendance Trophy by taking home the George Halas Memorial Fiscal Responsibility Trophy?

The White Sox have even gone so far as to write a new Grinder Rule, No. 33, which summarizes their plan: A true champion will never open their checkbook to pay a market rate salary for a superstar if there is an undervalued speedster with a big heart and high OBP to be had.

Flight #24
12-05-2006, 12:51 PM
It would probably cost more to get Crisp than Wells, given the risk involved with Wells leaving at the end of the season.

No chance of this being true. Crisp is significantly inferior to Wells in pretty much every way. yes, he's cheaper, but a cheap, worse player is not worth more than an expensive but very good one.

A similar analogy would be to call up the Red Sox and say "OK, Brian Anderson for Manny, but you have to throw in a prospect because BA's young & cheap." It's a bit extreme of an example, but you get the idea.

SABRSox
12-05-2006, 01:12 PM
No chance of this being true. Crisp is significantly inferior to Wells in pretty much every way. yes, he's cheaper, but a cheap, worse player is not worth more than an expensive but very good one.

A similar analogy would be to call up the Red Sox and say "OK, Brian Anderson for Manny, but you have to throw in a prospect because BA's young & cheap." It's a bit extreme of an example, but you get the idea.

The last going price for Crisp was Buehrle. If you ask me, Buehrle for Crisp is more than Garcia/BA for Wells.

oeo
12-05-2006, 01:30 PM
The last going price for Crisp was Buehrle. If you ask me, Buehrle for Crisp is more than Garcia/BA for Wells.

That was just Epstein being stupid, as usual. I don't think the Red Sox will trade him, but if they were to, there's no way they get a starting pitcher in return for him...especially a proven, veteran left-hander like Buehrle.

ilsox7
12-05-2006, 01:30 PM
The last going price for Crisp was Buehrle. If you ask me, Buehrle for Crisp is more than Garcia/BA for Wells.

That was the last asking price, which is very different than the going price. I could ask that someone pay $10 for my crisp $5 bill, but that does not make $10 the going price.

SABRSox
12-05-2006, 02:33 PM
Maybe I'm in the minority here, but I think you could give up less to get Manny at this point than Coco Crisp. Either way, Coco Crisp is too much for too little.

Flight #24
12-05-2006, 03:33 PM
Maybe I'm in the minority here, but I think you could give up less to get Manny at this point than Coco Crisp. Either way, Coco Crisp is too much for too little.

Word is that Epstein is starting discussions for Manny by saying things like "Peavy", "Shields/KRod plus a top prospect", or "3 of your top prospects". If true, it tells you a couple of things:
1) Manny is valued by Boston significantly higher than Crisp
2) Epstein has replaced the old Tampa GM (LaMar?) as the resident village idiot, impossible to make trades with
3) He doesn't really want to trade Manny

Regardless, Crisp's value today is significantly less than it was when Boston dealt for him, at which time they gave up a top prospect for him. Now, he's proven he's not a great CF (whereas he was a good defensive LF), and he's coming off of a subpar offensive year. It's not that far off of an analogy form say the value of Jeremy Reed today.

RKMeibalane
12-05-2006, 03:36 PM
It's not that far off of an analogy form say the value of Jeremy Reed today.

What are you talking about? Jeremy Reed is a HOF'er. :cool:

soxinem1
12-05-2006, 04:30 PM
I don't see Coco Crisp happening. The Red Sox are trying to deal Manny away, and if that happens, they can't deal Crisp away or they've lost their entire outfield. (Nixon is a FA)

You're also forgetting that Crisp is under contract until 2009 (club option in 2010) and that he's a bargain at the moment, considering the awful contract Colletti gave Pierre.

It would probably cost more to get Crisp than Wells, given the risk involved with Wells leaving at the end of the season. Even if Wells walks after 07, it would still be worth it, because you essentially traded for a year of him and financial flexibility for 07 for a SP you didn't have room for, and a young CF whom, despite the fact I think will be an above average ballplayer, isn't ready to contribute everday to a championship contending team.

And who knows, maybe KW finds the money to sign Wells to an extension.


Provided that Drew signs and Manny sticks around, between them and Wily Mo Pena, Crisp can be had, and not for a front-line starter.

If that's the case, Theo can have a five man rotation in the OF, as you know he's going to get Gabe Kapler back one way or another. Then he can listen to all them bitch about playing time.

SABRSox
12-05-2006, 05:12 PM
Provided that Drew signs and Manny sticks around, between them and Wily Mo Pena, Crisp can be had, and not for a front-line starter.

If that's the case, Theo can have a five man rotation in the OF, as you know he's going to get Gabe Kapler back one way or another. Then he can listen to all them bitch about playing time.

I can't imagine even Theo is dumb enough to trot an OF of Manny, Drew, and Willy Mo out there on a daily basis. That would be one of the worst defensive outfields ever.

White_Sock
12-05-2006, 05:12 PM
My buddy is currently at the winter meetings interviewing for a media job with the Charlotte Knights and two other A teams. He's seen KW and the OZ hanging around.

More importantly, the big rumor around the meetings is that KW wants Vernon Wells. However, he said that everyone is remaining cautious and patient given the current state of the market.

Don't mean to contribute to the rumor mill, but hey, it's the offseason for baseball and it's midseason in the baseball rumor league. :redneck

itsnotrequired
12-05-2006, 05:13 PM
Worth a try, I think...

Ol' No. 2
12-05-2006, 05:13 PM
Gee, we hadn't heard anything about that.

HotelWhiteSox
12-05-2006, 05:14 PM
Kenny is slick, I could see him not commenting or tricking others into being interested in like 5 different deals, and then go out and do something completely different. I am digging his new hair cut too

EMachine10
12-05-2006, 05:19 PM
i think i've seen this thread before :tongue:

kittle42
12-05-2006, 05:29 PM
My buddy is currently at the winter meetings interviewing for a media job with the Charlotte Knights and two other A teams. He's seen KW and the OZ hanging around.

More importantly, the big rumor around the meetings is that KW wants Vernon Wells. However, he said that everyone is remaining cautious and patient given the current state of the market.

Don't mean to contribute to the rumor mill, but hey, it's the offseason for baseball and it's midseason in the baseball rumor league. :redneck

Yes! The first one of these this offseason. I hope there are several more.

oeo
12-05-2006, 05:32 PM
I can't imagine even Theo is dumb enough to trot an OF of Manny, Drew, and Willy Mo out there on a daily basis. That would be one of the worst defensive outfields ever.

I don't know, the Flubs are strong contenders for that title.

White_Sock
12-05-2006, 05:37 PM
Originally Posted by Kittle42Quote:
Originally Posted by White_Sock http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=1430671#post1430671)
My buddy is currently at the winter meetings interviewing for a media job with the Charlotte Knights and two other A teams. He's seen KW and the OZ hanging around.

More importantly, the big rumor around the meetings is that KW wants Vernon Wells. However, he said that everyone is remaining cautious and patient given the current state of the market.

Don't mean to contribute to the rumor mill, but hey, it's the offseason for baseball and it's midseason in the baseball rumor league. :redneck


Yes! The first one of these this offseason. I hope there are several more.


My apologies. I just talked to my buddy again, and he said he heard of this from the Trib. :redface:

In the immortal words of Chris Farley: "I feel like a horses patoot!" Now that my career in trade rumors is over (1st time rumor post), I am going to stick to baseball season.

DickAllen72
12-05-2006, 05:39 PM
Wells is probably the 2nd best CF in baseball, behind only Carlos Beltran. If you could get him for a package of Garcia Anderson and a prospect, you have to do it. The time is basically here where teams have more money, and salaries are going to go up again. Inflation has hit baseball, and with Soriano and Beltran, Wells pretty much has a precedent. 5-6 years at 17-18 per. He is more worth it then Soriano.

I was thinking pretty much the same thing. Offer the Jays Garcia and Anderson contingent on working out a deal with Wells. Offer Wells a contract similar to what guys like Beltran and Soriano are getting. If he takes it, it's a good deal.

soxwon
12-05-2006, 05:42 PM
not garland please no- he's our best pitcher for 2 years now.

SluggersAway
12-05-2006, 05:58 PM
not garland please no- he's our best pitcher for 2 years now.

Garland has the most wins of any MLB pitcher over the last 2 years (tied with Chris Carpenter at 36).

Ixnay on any Garland trades.

kittle42
12-05-2006, 06:15 PM
Garland has the most wins of any MLB pitcher over the last 2 years (tied with Chris Carpenter at 36).

Ixnay on any Garland trades.

I am not condoning trading Garland, but wins are a somewhat overrated stat for starting pitchers.

Ol' No. 2
12-05-2006, 06:27 PM
I am not condoning trading Garland, but wins are a somewhat overrated stat for starting pitchers.That may be true when comparing pitchers on crappy teams with those on good teams, but when comparing pitchers with others on the same team it has decidedly more relevance.

maurice
12-05-2006, 06:52 PM
I can't imagine even Theo is dumb enough to trot an OF of Manny, Drew, and Willy Mo out there on a daily basis. That would be one of the worst defensive outfields ever.

Shouldn't be a problem. There's no way all 3 guys will be in the lineup together "on a daily basis." If they start 80 games in the OF together I'd be shocked.
:cool:

santo=dorf
12-05-2006, 06:56 PM
Garland has the most wins of any MLB pitcher over the last 2 years (tied with Chris Carpenter at 36).

Ixnay on any Garland trades.
Jon Garland went 18-10 with a 3.5 ERA on a team that won 99 games.
Jon Garland went 18-7 with a 4.5 ERA on a team that won 90 games.

You can't possibly look at that and not question the value of the win stat of a pitcher.

Freddy Garcia had a similar ERA and a record of 17-8. One extra homer and he could've had the exact same numbers as Garland (of course Garica had a much better WHIP,) yet people are kicking Garcia out the door and crowning Jon the king of the rotation. :?:

santo=dorf
12-05-2006, 06:57 PM
That may be true when comparing pitchers on crappy teams with those on good teams, but when comparing pitchers with others on the same team it has decidedly more relevance.
So Garcia was just as good as Garland last year?

Ol' No. 2
12-05-2006, 07:14 PM
So Garcia was just as good as Garland last year?It depends on how you compare.

santo=dorf
12-05-2006, 07:41 PM
It depends on how you compare.
W-L, ERA, WHIP, SLGA%, K/BB, IP. They're either even or Garcia's better.

Palehose13
12-05-2006, 09:17 PM
Vernon Wells, yes!


Kenny is slick...I am digging his new hair cut too

New haircut? Pic or linky?

Ol' No. 2
12-05-2006, 10:45 PM
W-L, ERA, WHIP, SLGA%, K/BB, IP. They're either even or Garcia's better.The differences are mostly pretty miniscule, and those small differences are more than made up for by this one:

SB/CS:
Garland: 6/7
Garcia: 40(!!)/2

Only Chris Young of SD allowed more SB (41).

Grzegorz
12-06-2006, 05:48 AM
I find it amazing that some White Sox fans look to Vernon Wells as the missing piece. I do not know what his salary would be, but upon hearing numbers like fifteen to twenty million per all I have to wonder is if some of our base are secretly Yankee acolytes.

Chicago White Sox money can be better spent on pitching; that is this teams Achilles' Heel.

Spending does not guarantee championships; pitching, speed, defense, and executing the fundamentals does bring championships.

W-L, ERA, WHIP, SLGA%, K/BB, IP. They're either even or Garcia's better.

As for the Garland/Garcia question ask yourself who fields his position better? Who gives his team a better opportunity to win by holding runners on base? Who appears to be the better teammate by not calling out his offense when he loses close games?

Not even close; the upside for Garland is much higher than that for "Big Game" Freddie. I am not sold on Garcia either as a pitcher or a clubhouse asset; he'd be the first pitcher I'd deal.

jabrch
12-06-2006, 08:00 AM
Spending does not guarantee championships; pitching, speed, defense, and executing the fundamentals does bring championships.



Actually, having a balanced team wins championships. If last year's team had Wells instead of BA and Mack in CF, and had Brandon in the rotation in one of the spots, there is a good chance we win the games needed to close the gap on Minny or possibly Detroit.

Garcia is a FA after this year. We won't be signing him to a 5/70 or a 3/40 type deal. So the question is do you capitalize on him or not. Gar has gaudy win totals, but numbers that don't match his wins. He may be overvalued for his wins. KW should look to capitalize on that. Buehrle is also a FA soon - will he be resigned? We have to get Brandon into the rotation - the question is how.

Jurr
12-06-2006, 08:19 AM
Actually, having a balanced team wins championships. If last year's team had Wells instead of BA and Mack in CF, and had Brandon in the rotation in one of the spots, there is a good chance we win the games needed to close the gap on Minny or possibly Detroit.

Garcia is a FA after this year. We won't be signing him to a 5/70 or a 3/40 type deal. So the question is do you capitalize on him or not. Gar has gaudy win totals, but numbers that don't match his wins. He may be overvalued for his wins. KW should look to capitalize on that. Buehrle is also a FA soon - will he be resigned? We have to get Brandon into the rotation - the question is how.
The White Sox didn't need another huge bat last year. They needed defense and OBP. If you remember, the Sox became so "all or nothing" that they were scoring 1-2 runs a game. Do you think Vernon Wells makes that much of a difference? No. You also can't say that putting McCarthy in the rotation would've helped. He lost so many games for the Sox last year, it wasn't funny. And, I don't want to hear that cop out about "learning a new way of pitching out of the pen"....hit your spots, get outs, and don't let them spray the seats with your pitches. Period.

This team clearly looked like it lost a step last year. They were still giddy over the 2005 stuff, and they cruised to an early string of success. Once the dog days hit, this team learned that after the 2005 season, it didn't have anything left in the tank. It happens to every champion the next year. The Yankees just always spent a ton at the break to re-energize the roster.

This team doesn't need an 80 million dollar bat just to make fans go "ahhhhhhh". We need a guy that will get on base, catch the ball, and not break the bank. I'd rather have Dye resigned than any of these schlubs that are being paid bozo dollars.

samram
12-06-2006, 09:13 AM
Actually, having a balanced team wins championships. If last year's team had Wells instead of BA and Mack in CF, and had Brandon in the rotation in one of the spots, there is a good chance we win the games needed to close the gap on Minny or possibly Detroit.

Right. What exactly about Vernon Wells would not enhance the team's speed, pitching, and defense?

samram
12-06-2006, 09:15 AM
The White Sox didn't need another huge bat last year. They needed defense and OBP. If you remember, the Sox became so "all or nothing" that they were scoring 1-2 runs a game. Do you think Vernon Wells makes that much of a difference? No. You also can't say that putting McCarthy in the rotation would've helped. He lost so many games for the Sox last year, it wasn't funny. And, I don't want to hear that cop out about "learning a new way of pitching out of the pen"....hit your spots, get outs, and don't let them spray the seats with your pitches. Period.

This team clearly looked like it lost a step last year. They were still giddy over the 2005 stuff, and they cruised to an early string of success. Once the dog days hit, this team learned that after the 2005 season, it didn't have anything left in the tank. It happens to every champion the next year. The Yankees just always spent a ton at the break to re-energize the roster.

This team doesn't need an 80 million dollar bat just to make fans go "ahhhhhhh". We need a guy that will get on base, catch the ball, and not break the bank. I'd rather have Dye resigned than any of these schlubs that are being paid bozo dollars.

He hit .303 with a .357 OBP, stole 17 bases, and played Gold Glove defense. How exactly would that have not helped the Sox last year?

BeviBall!
12-06-2006, 09:41 AM
He hit .303 with a .357 OBP, stole 17 bases, and played Gold Glove defense. How exactly would that have not helped the Sox last year?

Exactly. We're talking about one of the best 15 players in the game.

spiffie
12-06-2006, 10:25 AM
He hit .303 with a .357 OBP, stole 17 bases, and played Gold Glove defense. How exactly would that have not helped the Sox last year?
He's too good and costs money. You can't win unless you have lots of average players who grind.

Fenway
12-06-2006, 10:27 AM
Looks like the Jays know he isn't coming back in 2007


LAKE BUENA VISTA, Fla.—The Blue Jays say the decision to remove the face of Vernon Wells from the team's holiday greeting card wasn't guided by business considerations. Their soon-to-be free agent star disagrees, but thinks the team was right to cut him out in any case.

The card features sluggers Lyle Overbay and Troy Glaus, as wells as pitchers Roy Halladay, A.J. Burnett and B.J. Ryan. After being pictured last year, Wells is missing from the card currently landing in mailboxes around Toronto. Two weeks ago, Wells was also notable by his absence from a new series of print ads aimed at season ticket buyers.

http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/Article_Type1&c=Article&pubid=968163964505&cid=1165359015254&col=968705899037&call_page=TS_News&call_pageid=968332188492&call_pagepath=News/News

UserNameBlank
12-06-2006, 10:53 AM
He's too good and costs money. You can't win unless you have lots of average players who grind.

Why is that in teal?

There is a reason the Sox didn't throw Cub money at Beltran, Soriano, and Furcal over the last few years. While they all are superstar players who would provide tremendous improvements over what we had, there is no way the Sox could win with those players, especially with what 4th/5th starters like Ted Lily and Jeff Suppan are going for these days.

This is a lesson the Cubs are going to find out. While Vernon would be an awesome addition, the Sox should just re-sign both Dye and Crede for probably 6-7 mil more per year. I'd much rather have an outfield of say Pods-Anderson-Dye with Crede at 3B than an OF of say Jacque Jones-Wells-Sweeney with Fields at 3B.

Ol' No. 2
12-06-2006, 10:59 AM
Why is that in teal?

There is a reason the Sox didn't throw Cub money at Beltran, Soriano, and Furcal over the last few years. While they all are superstar players who would provide tremendous improvements over what we had, there is no way the Sox could win with those players, especially with what 4th/5th starters like Ted Lily and Jeff Suppan are going for these days.

This is a lesson the Cubs are going to find out. While Vernon would be an awesome addition, the Sox should just re-sign both Dye and Crede for probably 6-7 mil more per year. I'd much rather have an outfield of say Pods-Anderson-Dye with Crede at 3B than an OF of say Jacque Jones-Wells-Sweeney with Fields at 3B.Good job.
http://phillips.blogs.com/photos/uncategorized/923strawman.jpg

spiffie
12-06-2006, 11:15 AM
Why is that in teal?

There is a reason the Sox didn't throw Cub money at Beltran, Soriano, and Furcal over the last few years. While they all are superstar players who would provide tremendous improvements over what we had, there is no way the Sox could win with those players, especially with what 4th/5th starters like Ted Lily and Jeff Suppan are going for these days.

This is a lesson the Cubs are going to find out. While Vernon would be an awesome addition, the Sox should just re-sign both Dye and Crede for probably 6-7 mil more per year. I'd much rather have an outfield of say Pods-Anderson-Dye with Crede at 3B than an OF of say Jacque Jones-Wells-Sweeney with Fields at 3B.
I agree with randomly throwing money at superstars not being a path to success.

However, I disagree with your assessment. Jermaine Dye, if he has a year like he just had will command a huge sum on the open market, and having gone the last 3 years at a below-market salary is unlikely to sign for any sort of significant discount, and will also be entering his mid-30's. Joe Crede has had one high-level season, is a Scott Boras client, and has had chronic back problems. However, I'll assume the best for Joe and say that next year he puts up similar numbers and has no lingering back issues. To resign those two not only would be a rather risky proposition, but would likely require an annual investment of 22-25 million a year at current market rates.

Josh Fields is the #1 position prospect in our organization. At some point he is going to have to get on the field. I'm perfectly content to let him go another year in the minors and keep Crede. But if you told me you could lock up a young stud CF entering the prime years of his career, but the downside is you have to put your best prospect in the organization out on the field, I'm not sure I'm so at odds with that. And really, there's nothing that says we have to get rid of Crede. For 2007 there is no reason the OF couldn't be Dye-Wells-Pods and Crede at 3B, and if Dye goes in 2008 then the OF would be Anderson-Wells-Sweeney or some other acquisition we don't know about with Crede still at 3B. So yes, by 2009 we might end up with Wells-Sweeney-Anderson-Fields as a combination. And if those players are anything like what this organization says they will be that's not at all a bad situation, and we would have more salary flexibility than if we have Crede and Dye both locked into multi-year 10-15 million per year deals.

And honestly I have no idea what the hell Jacque Jones is doing in your statement other than to try and somehow add the Cubs into a discussion that they are not involved in.

Flight #24
12-06-2006, 11:17 AM
This team doesn't need an 80 million dollar bat just to make fans go "ahhhhhhh". We need a guy that will get on base, catch the ball, and not break the bank. I'd rather have Dye resigned than any of these schlubs that are being paid bozo dollars.

Dye's going to cost significant $$$, I'd bet he doesn't settle for less than what JD Drew just got. Wells is also better than or equivalent to Dye in pretty much every area. He gets on base (something you say we need). He's a GG defender in CF (something else you say we need). Yes, he's expensive, but not prohibitively so when compared to what it'll likely cost to either sign or retain another stud OF. Plus, if you make this type of move, you gain a year of having BOTH Dye and Wells, which is a ridiculous improvement over the Sox last year (and that's coming from someone who's a big fan of Anderson and think he's going to be very good).

Wells = speed, D, and power & average & on-base to boot.

UserNameBlank
12-06-2006, 12:00 PM
I agree with randomly throwing money at superstars not being a path to success.

However, I disagree with your assessment. Jermaine Dye, if he has a year like he just had will command a huge sum on the open market, and having gone the last 3 years at a below-market salary is unlikely to sign for any sort of significant discount, and will also be entering his mid-30's. Joe Crede has had one high-level season, is a Scott Boras client, and has had chronic back problems. However, I'll assume the best for Joe and say that next year he puts up similar numbers and has no lingering back issues. To resign those two not only would be a rather risky proposition, but would likely require an annual investment of 22-25 million a year at current market rates.

Josh Fields is the #1 position prospect in our organization. At some point he is going to have to get on the field. I'm perfectly content to let him go another year in the minors and keep Crede. But if you told me you could lock up a young stud CF entering the prime years of his career, but the downside is you have to put your best prospect in the organization out on the field, I'm not sure I'm so at odds with that. And really, there's nothing that says we have to get rid of Crede. For 2007 there is no reason the OF couldn't be Dye-Wells-Pods and Crede at 3B, and if Dye goes in 2008 then the OF would be Anderson-Wells-Sweeney or some other acquisition we don't know about with Crede still at 3B. So yes, by 2009 we might end up with Wells-Sweeney-Anderson-Fields as a combination. And if those players are anything like what this organization says they will be that's not at all a bad situation, and we would have more salary flexibility than if we have Crede and Dye both locked into multi-year 10-15 million per year deals.

And honestly I have no idea what the hell Jacque Jones is doing in your statement other than to try and somehow add the Cubs into a discussion that they are not involved in.

I see what you are saying but I doubt Dye is going to have another year like his '06 season. I'm expecting more along the lines of .305-33-100, which IMO will put him more in the JD Drew range. I don't think it is totally out of the question for the Sox to offer him something like 3 years/39 mil. As for Crede, who knows, but even if he puts up the same numbers as he did in '06 I don't think he will be anywhere near capable of getting Soriano money or anything like that. Maybe 12 or 13 mil per, but I guess you never know with Borass. If Crede and Dye could both be extended, and it cost the Sox say 26 mil per year for three years, I'd rather have both of them than Wells at 19 or 20 mil per.

Think of it this way: right now we have a top-5 defensive CF who can't hit very well yet, the No. 1 offensive RF who is either in or if not very close to the top-5 in defense for RF's, and a top-5 defensive 3B who ranked among the best of the offensive 3B last year. If the Sox lose both Dye and Crede and pick up Wells, they are losing defense and probably offense at 3B and RF, and only gaining offense in CF. Bad deal IMO.

Of course, none of us know if Dye or Crede would even negotiate or if they are determined to go into FA, so the issue of trading Dye and/or Crede will be discussed from now until either of them either re-sign or hit FA. But in a perfect world, I'd rather have Dye, Crede, and Anderson over Wells.

MRM
12-06-2006, 05:02 PM
Where is this eighteen million dollar per year figure coming from? That is high for any player at anytime.

18mil/yr probably won't be enough to sign Wells. Look at the money and years Soriano just got at age 32. Wells is only 27 or 28, is a five tool player AND GG caliber CF. I'll bet it takes 5 years at $20mil/per minimum to sign him long term. And that's probably cheap considering the way the market is going these days.

cburns
12-06-2006, 05:48 PM
The more we win, the less we have to worry about salary issues.

jabrch
12-06-2006, 06:54 PM
I really believe that between BA and Sweeney, one of those guys should be starting. We need to build and deveop our own talent if we are ever going to have a dynasty.

An OF of BA/Sweeney, Wells and Dye would be awful nice.

MRM
12-06-2006, 08:21 PM
I really believe that between BA and Sweeney, one of those guys should be starting. We need to build and deveop our own talent if we are ever going to have a dynasty.

An OF of BA/Sweeney, Wells and Dye would be awful nice.

A "dynasty" is near impossible in this economic age. Even if you develop your own players, or get players before their value jumps, at some point you've got to pay big money to keep them RE:Konerko. Anyone think Dye and MB will be with the Sox after next year? Crede after '08? Not without pulling out the checkbook. Can't pay "everyone", unless you're the Yankees.

That said, Wells is probably the biggest bargain in baseball THIS YEAR at $6.5mil. I'd do a deal for him in a heartbeat if they could arrange a long term extension (at whatever the cost) in the process. He's a young 5-tool stud who is also the kind of character guy Ozzie and Williams seem to like so much. I like this one much better than any of the other rumors we've heard.

jabrch
12-06-2006, 11:22 PM
A "dynasty" is near impossible in this economic age.

By dynasty, I'm talking about a team that you can pencil in for 90 wins every year, and that EXPECTS to make the playoffs each year. It takes a GM who can manage both the short and long term sides of a roster - something Kenny is particularly adept at.

No - we won't win 6 WS championships in the next 10 years, but I'd like to make the post season 6 of 10 years. That would be pretty damn cool. In order to do that, we need a mix of FAs and of developing our own. Right now, I think the OF is an opportunity for us with Sweeny, BA and Owens, all potentially MLB starters in the near future. Fields also at 3B. Past that, we have nobody (at least not that I see) starting a field position from the farm in the next two years.