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A. Cavatica
12-03-2006, 08:39 AM
Nick Cafardo has a full-page article about the trade market in today's Boston Globe. I think his assessments are pretty good, as witnessed by what he has to say about the (our) Sox:

Key acquisitions: RH reliever David Aardsma.
Needs: Another reliever, leadoff hitter, backup catcher. Could upgrade CF, LF, or SS.
Targets: Any pitching prospect from Texas (moving RHP Freddy Garcia or RHP Javier Vazquez for RHP Nick Masset, LHP John Danks, RHP Eric Hurley, or RHP Thomas Diamond). Multiplayer deal with the Angels involving OF Chone Figgins and RHP Ervin Santana for Garcia and 3B Joe Crede. Another leadoff possibility is OF Coco Crisp. Would make a run at SS Omar Vizquel if the Giants made him available. Possible interest in free agent catcher Rod Barajas or trade for Damian Miller or Toby Hall.
Projected payroll: $105 million.

The Angels' needs include a "power hitter who plays either third base or first base", and Crede is a specific target.

Garland is listed as a trade target for Texas, along with Vazquez.

The Mets' targets include Vazquez and Garcia.

And Tampa Bay's main target is "might trade CF Rocco Baldelli for a starter like Jon Garland or Mark Buehrle."

Anyway, pretty much every reasonable rumor we've heard this winter is listed, but the crazy-sounding ones are filtered out. What I find interesting is (1) the play to the Tampa rumor; (2) that the Sox and Angels apparently need to involve a third team to consummate their trade, and (3) a Rangers deal would seem likeliest to revolve around Vaz, with the Sox perhaps preferring to move Freddy and the Rangers asking for Garland.

KW is certainly in the driver's seat. Cafardo believes the following teams are looking for starting pitching: Cubs, Dodgers, Mets, Yankees, Cardinals, Braves, Orioles, Reds, Astros, Padres, Giants, Mariners, Rangers, Jays, Diamondbacks, Rockies, Royals, Brewers, Twins, A's, Pirates, Rays, and Nationals.

caulfield12
12-03-2006, 10:15 AM
I wouldn't think about giving up a pitcher to get Rocco Baldelli, though.

It's bad enough what they want for Crawford.

A. Cavatica
12-03-2006, 01:41 PM
I wouldn't think about giving up a pitcher to get Rocco Baldelli, though.

It's bad enough what they want for Crawford.

Baldelli's a really good young player, but like Crawford, he doesn't walk enough to be a leadoff hitter. I think he might be worth a pitcher if the Rays take on the full salary, but IMHO we can't afford to deal our extra starter without finding a leadoff hitter who plays SS, LF, or CF.

CPditka
12-03-2006, 01:49 PM
I wouldn't think about giving up a pitcher to get Rocco Baldelli, though.

It's bad enough what they want for Crawford.

Its their loss. They have no pitching outside Kamir and if they are too demanding for Crawford and Baldelli then they lose out on getting some badly needed pitching. They can keep their LF and CF and finish 60-102 again.

Domeshot17
12-03-2006, 02:08 PM
they are being smart. They have 5 awesome young OF. Everyone assumes they are just this team that makes young kids good, and then trades them for more kids. they have a really good future and why hurt that by moving their best player (Crawford). I honestly doubt they will even listen to an offer on him. I would move Vazquez for Baldelli in a SECOND. He battled injuries early in his career, but I think he is going to be an amazing player when its all said and done. His upside is tremendous.

Plus, unlike a trade with Boston Texas Angels, you dont run a major risk of having to face them in the playoffs.

Fenway
12-03-2006, 02:15 PM
The column in question is linked below.

BASEBALL NOTES: Attention, shoppers (http://www.boston.com/sports/baseball/articles/2006/12/03/attention_shoppers)
(By Nick Cafardo,) Whether you're a big-, middle-, or small-market team, baseball's winter meetings can either fill your needs or create new ones. There are still plenty of free agents to be had, including top-level ones such as Barry Zito and Jason Schmidt and second-tier ones such as Trot Nixon and Jay Payton. There also could be big names involved in trades

caulfield12
12-03-2006, 02:51 PM
they are being smart. They have 5 awesome young OF. Everyone assumes they are just this team that makes young kids good, and then trades them for more kids. they have a really good future and why hurt that by moving their best player (Crawford). I honestly doubt they will even listen to an offer on him. I would move Vazquez for Baldelli in a SECOND. He battled injuries early in his career, but I think he is going to be an amazing player when its all said and done. His upside is tremendous.

Plus, unlike a trade with Boston Texas Angels, you dont run a major risk of having to face them in the playoffs.

And they you've just declared that Anderson is basically worthless.

Crawford, sure...but Baldelli is not a clear and obvious upgrade over the next 3-5 years when you consider the cost of giving up a pitcher...heck, Anderson might be better than Baldelli over the next five seasons.

Domeshot17
12-03-2006, 03:10 PM
Anderson will be different then Baldelli, not better. Baledlli has tremendous range in the OF, could easily handle center, he has a strong arm, he isnt a power hitter but hits the gaps hard and might be one of the 2 or 3 fastest guys in baseball.

I don't think Anderson will be half the player Baldelli is, maybe defensively, but not with the stick.

Personally, I just cant struggle from another year of uribe and anderson 8 and 9. We have to upgrade one of those positions. Those 2 alone cost us easily 6 games with their inability to do anything offensively, those 6 games put us a lot closer to the playoffs. Uribe's defense is over rated because he os his errant throws, hes good, but not amazing because he throws the ball away too much. Anderson is great in the OF. If you upgrade offensively without taking a hit with the D you have to do it.

Taliesinrk
12-03-2006, 04:21 PM
Anderson will be different then Baldelli, not better. Baledlli has tremendous range in the OF, could easily handle center, he has a strong arm, he isnt a power hitter but hits the gaps hard and might be one of the 2 or 3 fastest guys in baseball.

I don't think Anderson will be half the player Baldelli is, maybe defensively, but not with the stick.

Personally, I just cant struggle from another year of uribe and anderson 8 and 9. We have to upgrade one of those positions. Those 2 alone cost us easily 6 games with their inability to do anything offensively, those 6 games put us a lot closer to the playoffs. Uribe's defense is over rated because he os his errant throws, hes good, but not amazing because he throws the ball away too much. Anderson is great in the OF. If you upgrade offensively without taking a hit with the D you have to do it.

speaking strictly about CF; what CF could we get that would be an upgrade offensively and not lose any D??

Domeshot17
12-03-2006, 04:24 PM
My point was on Baldelli, he plays a hell of a center field and roams a much bigger OF in Tampa. I think getting onto a better playing surface in Chicago would do wonders for him. Maybe he wont be as good as Brian, but his arm is better and you wouldnt miss a beat with him.

Frater Perdurabo
12-03-2006, 04:39 PM
Does anyone think Tampa would trade Baldelli straight up for one of the Sox' starting pitchers? Would they trade Crawford for McCarthy?

ondafarm
12-04-2006, 12:14 AM
Does anyone think Tampa would trade Baldelli straight up for one of the Sox' starting pitchers? Would they trade Crawford for McCarthy?

I don't know why you keep thinking McCarthy is on the trading block. Of all the Sox pitchers he and Jenks are probably the most untoucahble trade-wise. Thornton being just behind them.

maurice
12-04-2006, 02:25 PM
Tampa Bay's main target is "might trade CF Rocco Baldelli for a starter like Jon Garland or Mark Buehrle." Anyway, pretty much every reasonable rumor we've heard this winter is listed, but the crazy-sounding ones are filtered out.

Baldelli for Garland or Buehrle should have been filtered out . . . or at least rephrased. Baldelli's trade value does not remotely approach Garland's or Buehrle's.

Does anyone think Tampa would trade Baldelli straight up for one of the Sox' starting pitchers?

Tampa would very gladly trade Baldelli straight up for ANY of the Sox starting pitchers. Healthy, inning-eating starters are etremely valuable . . . much more so than a talented CF with the following stats:
2003: 156 games played
2004: 136 games played
2005: 0 games played
2006: 92 games played

russ99
12-04-2006, 02:34 PM
they are being smart. They have 5 awesome young OF. Everyone assumes they are just this team that makes young kids good, and then trades them for more kids. they have a really good future and why hurt that by moving their best player (Crawford). I honestly doubt they will even listen to an offer on him. I would move Vazquez for Baldelli in a SECOND. He battled injuries early in his career, but I think he is going to be an amazing player when its all said and done. His upside is tremendous.

Plus, unlike a trade with Boston Texas Angels, you dont run a major risk of having to face them in the playoffs.

I thought the Rays were being smart, but then they go out and trade Gathright to KC for a prospect (J.P. Howell). That's how not to build a contending club. If they are going to move 1 or 2 of those good outfielders, then they really need to get major league talent in return. You have to wonder about Tampa ownership and their willingness to add salary.

I don't see how Baldelli is that much better than the guy we already have here at CF, other than batting average, and who's to say Rocco hasn't lost a step after such a bad injury...

However, Crawford is a guy I'd love to see in a Sox uniform.

Jjav829
12-04-2006, 02:47 PM
I thought the Rays were being smart, but then they go out and trade Gathright to KC for a prospect (J.P. Howell). That's how not to build a contending club. If they are going to move 1 or 2 of those good outfielders, then they really need to get major league talent in return. You have to wonder about Tampa ownership and their willingness to add salary.

That's because Joey Gathright isn't very good. The prospect they got in return is a 23-year-old lefty who had a 3.09 ERA in his minor league career. Who would you rather have? The 23-year-old lefty pitcher drafted in the first round of the 04 draft, or the 25-year-old outfielder with no power who has a career .251 average (and hit .262 with a .332 OBP while playing regularly for the Royals) and who was found because he could jump over a car?

Pretty easy decision if you ask me, though car jumping is a valuable skill for baseball players to have.

Foulke You
12-04-2006, 03:01 PM
Baldelli for Garland or Buehrle should have been filtered out . . . or at least rephrased. Baldelli's trade value does not remotely approach Garland's or Buehrle's.



Tampa would very gladly trade Baldelli straight up for ANY of the Sox starting pitchers. Healthy, inning-eating starters are etremely valuable . . . much more so than a talented CF with the following stats:
2003: 156 games played
2004: 136 games played
2005: 0 games played
2006: 92 games played
I agree with your assessment. They'd have to include more than Baldelli for the Sox to entertain moving Buehrle or Garland. I don't doubt that Tampa wants pitching but what I question whether Tampa is willing to take on a big ticket salary like any of our 5 starters. Vazquez makes $12 million, Buehrle and Garcia makeb about $9 million...those just seem like un-D-Ray like salaries to me. I'm willing to bet they might be more interested in cheap young guys like McCarthy or Haegar than our big ticket starters.

Fenway
12-04-2006, 04:01 PM
The Red Sox are looking for a closer and on this the first day of the meetings 2 names have come out.

Theo is insane


One Milwaukee Brewers official said this afternoon the Red Sox have made an inquiry on embattled former closer Derrick Turnbow, who after making the National League All-Star team came unglued in July, when he was 1 for 5 in save chances and had a 21.32 ERA and lost his closer job.
Turnbow, throws 97-98 mph and has had superb stretches the past two years. But when he goes bad, he really goes bad.


http://www.boston.com/sports/baseball/redsox/extras/extra_bases/

meanwhile
Foulke encore? (http://www.boston.com/sports/baseball/redsox/extras/thebuzz)
Could it be possible that Keith Foulke returns to the Red Sox?

and the Dodgers are saying a deal for Manny is a longshot

GM Ned Colletti told his people this morning that a deal with the Red Sox for Manny Ramirez was "the longest of longshots.'' One Dodger official rated the chances of a deal "at 5 percent...at best.''

Ol' No. 2
12-04-2006, 04:05 PM
Here's a little nugget from ESPN's Hot Stove Report:
The Cubs are dangling right fielder Jacque Jones (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/profile?statsId=6246).I'm pretty sure there are few Cubs fans who would LOVE to see Jones dangling from somewhere.

FedEx227
12-04-2006, 04:24 PM
^ Haha, that's pretty terrible, btw.


The Red Sox would be smart to get Turnbow, he's one of those guys that came undone, but could easily get right back into the groove with a change of scenery. He's a fireballer, unfortunately he only has 1 good pitch.

caulfield12
12-04-2006, 04:36 PM
I thought the Rays were being smart, but then they go out and trade Gathright to KC for a prospect (J.P. Howell). That's how not to build a contending club. If they are going to move 1 or 2 of those good outfielders, then they really need to get major league talent in return. You have to wonder about Tampa ownership and their willingness to add salary.

I don't see how Baldelli is that much better than the guy we already have here at CF, other than batting average, and who's to say Rocco hasn't lost a step after such a bad injury...

However, Crawford is a guy I'd love to see in a Sox uniform.

Howell is one of the pitchers some Royals insiders were "grousing" about how they gave up on him too quickly and brought him up before he was ready.

You have a former first rounder, left-handed, young/affordable and the chance to grow into a job in KC, why do you dump him for what amounts to a 4th outfielder...a player very similar to Pablo Ozuna for the White Sox?

With DeJesus, Reggie Sanders, Emil Brown, Teahen probably moving to make way for Gordon, Costa...there's no space for Gathright, who's essentially a slightly better Nook Logan.

Fenway
12-04-2006, 05:25 PM
4:15 p.m., from Peter Gammons
The Dodgers and Mariners are in the hunt for Manny Ramirez (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/profile?statsId=5132).

SEATTLE???
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2685697

Frater Perdurabo
12-04-2006, 09:18 PM
Does anyone think Tampa would trade Baldelli straight up for one of the Sox' starting pitchers? Would they trade Crawford for McCarthy?

I don't know why you keep thinking McCarthy is on the trading block. Of all the Sox pitchers he and Jenks are probably the most untoucahble trade-wise. Thornton being just behind them.

I do not believe McCarthy is on the block, and I don't think my statement above in any way reflects that I think he's on the block. He probably is the most valuable pitcher on the Sox roster because he's so inexpensive.

The purpose of my query was to see if anyone would think the Rays would give up Crawford for McCarthy. That's a deal I would do if I were the GM of either team (TB wants young, good, cheap pitching; CC would add a great dimension to the Sox, and he's signed to a cheap deal). Would you?

ondafarm
12-04-2006, 09:31 PM
I do not believe McCarthy is on the block, and I don't think my statement above in any way reflects that I think he's on the block. He probably is the most valuable pitcher on the Sox roster because he's so inexpensive.

The purpose of my query was to see if anyone would think the Rays would give up Crawford for McCarthy. That's a deal I would do if I were the GM of either team (TB wants young, good, cheap pitching; CC would add a great dimension to the Sox, and he's signed to a cheap deal). Would you?

Were I the Sox, I would not do the deal. The Sox have better options to trade and I don't think TB is so skinflint that they'd not take Garcia or Vazquez instead. Starting pitching is at a premium this year, pretty much always has.

FedEx227
12-04-2006, 09:35 PM
If I were Kenny I'd do exactly as ondafarm is saying.

Start with Vazquez, if they say no, add something to that... still say no, switch Vazquez with Garcia. Give them all of their options before McCarthy. While I know some people like to say he's not ready, he is. It would be a joke if we don't have him in the starting rotation this year.

Lip Man 1
12-04-2006, 11:05 PM
Fed:

Why is it a joke?

McCarthy is still very young, pitching in triple A doesn't start the clock towards free agency either.

Guys like Gary Peters pitched years in the minor leagues learning their craft before getting the call to the big club.

When the time came, they were ready and it showed in their performance. McCarthy still looks like he needs to learn some things.

I'm not saying it's perfect but if the Sox do what Kenny has been saying, that they don't HAVE to trade a starter (which he again said tonight on Comcast Sports Chicago), there are worse things then having him get work in Charlotte.

Lip

Fenway
12-05-2006, 09:28 AM
Cafardo writes this morning that many teams are waiting to see what Theo does...

LAKE BUENA VISTA, Fla. -- The Red Sox appear to be the center of the baseball universe.

Manny Ramírez is a bigger name right now than Mickey Mouse, which is a name that also could be used to describe some of the offers teams have floated to the Red Sox brass for one of the greatest righthanded hitters in modern times.

"Red Sox trade Manny yet?" asked Detroit manager Jim Leyland. "What a hitter. Great hitter."

http://www.boston.com/sports/baseball/redsox/articles/2006/12/05/domino_theory_pervasive/

"Everyone's watching the Red Sox," said an NL GM. "The Red Sox are controlling this thing. If they break the logjam, you might see some other deals made."

caulfield12
12-05-2006, 10:03 AM
Fed:

Why is it a joke?

McCarthy is still very young, pitching in triple A doesn't start the clock towards free agency either.

Guys like Gary Peters pitched years in the minor leagues learning their craft before getting the call to the big club.

When the time came, they were ready and it showed in their performance. McCarthy still looks like he needs to learn some things.

I'm not saying it's perfect but if the Sox do what Kenny has been saying, that they don't HAVE to trade a starter (which he again said tonight on Comcast Sports Chicago), there are worse things then having him get work in Charlotte.

Lip

However, that trade (potential one for a starter) is going to be hard to pass up because it seems to be the most cost-efficient way for us to "supplement" the back of our bullpen.

I don't know how many threads you've written about the pen, but I am sure one will be coming in October of 2007 if we don't do anything more than try to find another Jeff Nelson off the scrap heap.

cws05champ
12-05-2006, 10:08 AM
Here's a little nugget from ESPN's Hot Stove Report:
I'm pretty sure there are few Cubs fans who would LOVE to see Jones dangling from somewhere.

I heard on XM radio a three way deal involving J.Jones, Carlos Marmol, Paul Maholm(pirates SP) to the Rockies, Jason Jennings to the Cubs, Brad Hawpe to the Pirates.
Was just a rumor as of yesterday, I'm not sure how close this is to happening.

FedEx227
12-05-2006, 01:41 PM
I heard on XM radio a three way deal involving J.Jones, Carlos Marmol, Paul Maholm(pirates SP) to the Rockies, Jason Jennings to the Cubs, Brad Hawpe to the Pirates.
Was just a rumor as of yesterday, I'm not sure how close this is to happening.

Rockies actually make out pretty well in that, Maholm is a good talent. Unfortunately they get everyones favorite Jones, and Cy-Young aka Carlos Marmol. And the Pirates of course don't solve any of their problems through trades because they are the Pirates.

Fenway
12-05-2006, 01:56 PM
We have a nice quote from Theo Epstein

"We'll definitely have a closer by Opening Day"


Theo is about to get burned. He decided to offer Foulke arbitration in the thinking he would then get a draft choice from the team that signs him. Guess what?


Foulke's agent yesterday indicated the former closer was weighing accepting Boston's offer (http://www.boston.com/sports/baseball/redsox/articles/2006/12/05/lester_said_to_be_making_progress/), which would essentially put him under contract for next season. What does it say about you when two of the first moves you make in a necessary overhaul of the bullpen are to sign Mike Timlin and offer Foulke arbitration? Is Joe Sambito far behind?


http://www.boston.com/sports/nesn/wilbur/sports_blog/blog/2006/12/05/arms_worth_hammer/index.html

Fenway
12-05-2006, 03:17 PM
Red Sox send a signal about Manny


LAKE BUENA VISTA, Fla. -- Red Sox manager Terry Francona, appearing with Charlie Steiner and myself on XM Radio moments ago, said he doesn't believe Manny Ramirez will be traded.

"I don't see it happening,'' Francona said when asked about the likelihood of a deal. "Everyone hears the whispers. I don't think it's any big secret that there are times of the year that he feels Boston is closing in on him.


http://www.boston.com/sports/baseball/redsox/extras/extra_bases/2006/12/tito_on_manny_d.html

Flight #24
12-05-2006, 03:41 PM
Red Sox send a signal about Manny



http://www.boston.com/sports/baseball/redsox/extras/extra_bases/2006/12/tito_on_manny_d.html

IMO, Theo sent the signal when he basically asked for what I saw one report term "every player on the Dodgers roster and 250 gold bars". If his reported demands for Manny are accurate, that tells you that he's either still high from his latest Pearl Jam show or is trying to make sure he can tell Manny "I tried, no one wants you".

Fenway
12-05-2006, 05:11 PM
Boston is getting desperate for a closer


LAKE BUENA VISTA, Fla. -- The market for come-backing closer Eric Gagne is heating up, and word is Gagne could be signed by the end of the week.

Smack in the middle of it are the Red Sox. The Red Sox currently have the best opportunity for Gagne, who would be their closer. The Indians could also be in the same boat, also in need of a closer, but Red Sox dollars could trump the Indians.

I love this part
While Gagne was originally going to take part in a workout for some teams, that's been scrapped because of the intense interest in him.

http://www.boston.com/sports/baseball/redsox/extras/extra_bases/

MUsoxfan
12-05-2006, 05:13 PM
If Theo signs this guy to any significant amount of guaranteed money people will be chasing him out of town while swinging boards with nails in them.

Ol' No. 2
12-05-2006, 05:15 PM
Boston is getting desperate for a closer



I love this part


http://www.boston.com/sports/baseball/redsox/extras/extra_bases/So are he and Keith Foulke going to fight it out for the job?:o:

SABRSox
12-05-2006, 05:21 PM
If Theo signs this guy to any significant amount of guaranteed money people will be chasing him out of town while swinging boards with nails in them.

They ought to already for signing Drew.

Fenway
12-05-2006, 05:24 PM
If Theo signs this guy to any significant amount of guaranteed money people will be chasing him out of town while swinging boards with nails in them.

You would not believe the outrage Red Sox fans have over this Drew signing.

People are calling WEEI wanting Lou Gorman and Dan Duquette back :tongue:

palehozenychicty
12-05-2006, 05:34 PM
They ought to already for signing Drew.

Indeed. Epstein's seventeen minutes are up.

Fenway
12-05-2006, 05:36 PM
If Theo signs this guy to any significant amount of guaranteed money people will be chasing him out of town while swinging boards with nails in them.

Indeed. Epstein's seventeen minutes are up.

Can we trade Manny and Theo for KW?

ma-gaga
12-06-2006, 01:41 PM
The Dodgers and Mariners are in the hunt for Manny Ramirez (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/profile?statsId=5132).

SEATTLE???

The rumor from USS Mariners (http://www.ussmariner.com/)is that it would be a series of trades, the Mariner's would then flip Sexson to SF Giants for a locked up Jason Schmidt...

It doesn't quite make sense to me. Schmidt is (was) a FA. Just all about money "earmarked" for a SP I guess.


The Manny deal looks to be dead, since Boston was asking for a ridiculous price. I was obviously in favor of a Manny trade, having suggested it several months ago, but for what Theo wanted, the Ms were right to say no.
The Ms are saying all the proper things about not shopping Sexson, but hes absolutely on the block. The current rumor du jour has Sexson going to San Francisco and Rafael Soriano going to Atlanta in a three way trade that would send Tim Hudson and Adam LaRoche to the Mariners. This deal would be a home run for the Mariners and a lousy one for the Braves, so Id expect John Schuerholz to come to his senses before it gets too far. But man, if that deal happens, Ill do backflips in the street.

Fenway
12-07-2006, 11:08 AM
Finally Keith Foulke is a free agent


Keith Foulke has declined the Red Sox offer of arbitration, officially making him a free agent.


http://www.boston.com/sports/baseball/redsox/extras/extra_bases/

So Boston is now focused on Gagne :o:


The biggest obstacle to a deal could be the amount of guaranteed money Boras is seeking for Gagne, who has been limited to 15 1/3 innings over the last two years because of elbow and back surgeries. One GM said that Boras was asking in excess of $5 million guaranteed.


Makes one wonder if Boras is saying pay Gagne the money and I will come down in price on Matsuzaka. Epstein has a major problem on his hands if he can't make a deal on Matsuzaka as the fan base will revolt.