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broker3d
11-28-2006, 08:06 PM
I'm sure that some of you would say pitching but I don't think there is a position that the Sox have been worse at developing than shortstop over the last 25 years. I really can't think of a single shortstop (decent shortstop) that was developed in the White Sox system.

Let me know your thoughts on the position that the Sox have had the least success at developing. Also, name the top shortstops that came up through the Sox system.

Daver
11-28-2006, 08:15 PM
Yeah, that Ozzie Guillen guy sucked.

buehrle4cy05
11-28-2006, 08:17 PM
Yeah, Luis Aparicio was a terrible shortstop.

Frater Perdurabo
11-28-2006, 08:17 PM
Yeah, that Ozzie Guillen guy sucked.

Didn't Ozzie come to the Sox (along with Tim Lollar) from the Padres in the LaMarr Hoyt deal? Did Ozzie really spend any time in the Sox minor league system?

buehrle4cy05
11-28-2006, 08:21 PM
Oh yeah, I forgot about Luke Appling. So the Sox have developed two HOF shortstops.

Edit: Misread the thread, thought you were saying over the entire history of the franchise.

Bucky F. Dent
11-28-2006, 08:22 PM
Damn, Broker!
You just cut me to the core.

Bucky D. was drafted by the Sox in '70.

broker3d
11-28-2006, 08:51 PM
First of all, Ozzie Guillen was traded for in the trade involving Lamar Hoyt. So, no, Ozzie Guillen did not suck he just wasn't brought up in our system. As a matter of fact, he was one of my all time favorites. Apparacio and Appling played much further than 25 years ago. Who was the last quality shortstop the sox developed in their system over the last 25 or so years?

A. Cavatica
11-28-2006, 09:01 PM
Todd Cruz?

monkeypants
11-29-2006, 12:29 AM
http://i2.ebayimg.com/01/i/06/e2/9e/cb_1.JPG

"Did someone say my name? No? Are you sure? No? Really? Um, ok."

ondafarm
11-29-2006, 12:40 AM
I'm sure that some of you would say pitching but I don't think there is a position that the Sox have been worse at developing than shortstop over the last 25 years. I really can't think of a single shortstop (decent shortstop) that was developed in the White Sox system.

Let me know your thoughts on the position that the Sox have had the least success at developing. Also, name the top shortstops that came up through the Sox system.

Great shortstops are born not made. Or if they are made, it is on the corner ballfields of the DR. Okinawa and Venezuela. Shortstop takes an incredible amount of instinct. The best shortstop I ever played with was always moving with the pitch. He had incredible range and would intercept throws I was preparing to receive and redirect and nail a guy going into a different base.

I grew up playing second base (if your mom founded the Nellie Fox fan club, you'd have been raised to play second also.) When I signed a contract, I was switched to catcher. I learned how to play catcher and had my knees not given out, I would have kept learning and kept getting better defensive skills. Shortstop is either there when they sign or it isn't. The hitting and baserunning can be taught and will come, but the defensive instincts aren't learnt. It also helps develop SS if you have a recent HOF caliber SS in your system as a roving instructor.

Nellie_Fox
11-29-2006, 12:40 AM
He clearly said "over the last 25 years." Aparicio and Appling are slightly outside that window. Ozzie was not developed in the Sox system. So, it's a reasonable question.

soxinem1
11-29-2006, 10:21 AM
This is a valid point, but quite honestly, how many teams DEVELOPED their own quality SS? Almost every team has had this dilemna, especially in the past 30 years.

Today, except for a handful, most teams starting SS have come from different organizations. Plus:

Ozzie Smith was best known as a Cardinal, but came up with SD. HE still has not been adequately replaced by a home-grown guy in either city.

Alan Trammell still has not been replaced in DET.

Derek Jeter is the first quality NYY homegrown SS in a LONG time.

Nomar was the last quality homegrown SS BOS had since Rick Burleson.

The Dodgers haven't had one since Maury Wills, unless you count Iron Glove Bill Russell.

The Brewers still havent replaced Robin Yount.

The Cubs have not replaced Don Kessinger or Shawon Dunston.

And the list goes on and on.

I like to see players come out of the farm system as much as anyone, but this has been a sport-wide issue ever since free agency began, not just a White Sox issue.

WhiteSox5187
11-29-2006, 10:48 AM
Boy, I think you have to go all the way back to Bucky Dent for the last good Sox home grown shortstop. And I think he doesn't make the twenty five year cut. So before Uribe you had Valentine who was lousy defensively and came up with the Brewers. Before Valentine you had Caruso who was awful but came up with the Sox, before Caruso you had Ozzie and Ozzie came up with the Padres, before Ozzie you had....christ...um...god, it was like a revolving door. So in '83 there was Dybzinski. Was he there in '82? Greg Pryor was there for awhile....so was Don Kessinger and he came up with the Cubs. Pryor came up with the Yankees. And then you had Bannister in '77 who was with them for one year. I'm missing a couple of guys. Who?

jcw218
11-29-2006, 11:36 AM
Here's a list of the White Sox Shortstops since 1983

Jerry Dybzinski - 1983
Scott Fletcher - 1984
Ozzie Guillen - 1985 - 1997
Craig Grabeck - 1992 - Ozzie injured in collision with Tim Raines
Mike Caruso - 1998 - 1999
Jose Valentin - 2000, 2003 - 2004
Royce Clayton - 2001 - 2002
Juan Uribe - 2005 - present

To my knowledge, none of the aforementioned players were drafted and developed by the White Sox organization

Britt Burns
11-29-2006, 01:02 PM
You could say the same thing about a catcher as well...Karkovice is the only one who came up through the Sox organization, and, well, he couldn't hit a lick. Prior to Robin and Crede it was 3rd base that the Sox had a terrible tme developing players. In other words, good skill position players don't come around that often, and you can't hold it against the system that none have panned out.

Consider the high draft picks recently spent on SS...Dellareo (ugh), Morse, Valido, Getz (drafted in'02 as a SS).

Zisk77
11-29-2006, 04:30 PM
[quote=WhiteSox5187;1424219]Before Valentine you had Caruso who was awful but came up with the Sox,

Caruso was a product of the giants farm and was part of the "white flag" trade.

A. Cavatica
11-29-2006, 06:03 PM
Here's a list of the White Sox Shortstops since 1983

Jerry Dybzinski - 1983
Scott Fletcher - 1984
Ozzie Guillen - 1985 - 1997
Craig Grabeck - 1992 - Ozzie injured in collision with Tim Raines
Mike Caruso - 1998 - 1999
Jose Valentin - 2000, 2003 - 2004
Royce Clayton - 2001 - 2002
Juan Uribe - 2005 - present

To my knowledge, none of the aforementioned players were drafted and developed by the White Sox organization

Grebeck was a Sox farmhand, but he was more of a second baseman.

wassagstdu
11-29-2006, 08:26 PM
What does it mean to be "developed" in the Sox farm system? Aparicio was more discovered than developed, though I guess he did have a cup of coffee in the Sox farm system. But he was already a legend in Venezuela before the Sox signed him -- mainly because his father (Luis Aparicio el Grande) was a legend and famously handed over his glove to Luis (Jr) on the field when he retired.

Historically, wherever they come from, shortstops have been the highest quality position for the Sox (after pitching). Appling, Carrasquel, Aparicio, Hansen, (fast forward) Guillen, Uribe. Worst has been third base -- until (Melton?) Ventura and Crede.

broker3d
11-29-2006, 08:49 PM
As for catcher, this may be a stretch but Joel Skinner was a very highly touted catcher. Just not a highly productive major league catcher.