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View Full Version : Cubune: KW says Crede extension unlikely; no Bonds (duh)


Mr. White Sox
11-28-2006, 12:15 AM
KW seems to be standing pat, but as the article states I wouldn't be surprised to see Crede or Freddy get traded if it helps the club in the here and now.

article (http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/cs-061127sox,1,6410166.story?coll=cs-home-headlines)

chisoxmike
11-28-2006, 12:20 AM
Typical White Sox....

They still don't act like a World Championship team. I'm not saying spend freely like a lot of teams are doing on overrated players. In order to keep your home players over a period of time, they're going to have to spend the money to keep them, aka Konerko.

DumpJerry
11-28-2006, 12:29 AM
Typical White Sox....

They still don't act like a World Championship team. I'm not saying spend freely like a lot of teams are doing on overrated players. In order to keep your home players over a period of time, they're going to have to spend the money to keep them, aka Konerko.
Come on Mike, we know by know to not listen to Kenny, we just watch him work his magic.

buehrle4cy05
11-28-2006, 12:30 AM
Come on Mike, we know by know to not listen to Kenny, we just watch him work his magic.

I hope he's just ****ing with Bora$$.

chaerulez
11-28-2006, 12:35 AM
Read that article too and I thought it was poor journalism. There is no real Sox fan "dreaming" for Bonds to come play LF. The overwhelming majority of the Sox fanbase can't stand Bonds. So for them to report that is irresponsible, because it made it seem like Sox fans are wishing for Bonds to come to the Sox. If the Sox ever signed Bonds, I would not follow the team until he left.

Craig Grebeck
11-28-2006, 12:41 AM
Typical White Sox....

They still don't act like a World Championship team. I'm not saying spend freely like a lot of teams are doing on overrated players. In order to keep your home players over a period of time, they're going to have to spend the money to keep them, aka Konerko.
Crede is by no means a special player. His level of production shouldn't be hard to replace.

LuvSox
11-28-2006, 12:43 AM
Crede is by no means a special player. His level of production shouldn't be hard to replace.

He's got a pretty god damn good glove, which, IIRC, is also a part of baseball.

chisoxmike
11-28-2006, 12:43 AM
Read that article too and I thought it was poor journalism. There is no real Sox fan "dreaming" for Bonds to come play LF. The overwhelming majority of the Sox fanbase can't stand Bonds. So for them to report that is irresponsible, because it made it seem like Sox fans are wishing for Bonds to come to the Sox. If the Sox ever signed Bonds, I would not follow the team until he left.

It is a Tribune story...

WizardsofOzzie
11-28-2006, 12:58 AM
Crede is by no means a special player. His level of production shouldn't be hard to replace.
:tealpolice:

TheOldRoman
11-28-2006, 01:04 AM
I agree that this is a horrible article. However, nothing in it is very damning about Crede. We all knew that it was a dicey situation to begin with - partially because of Borass, but mostly because of Crede's back. KW is just letting Crde know that, although they love him, he might not be able to stay here if he doesn't meet the Sox' demands.
Basically, KW put pressure on Crede. Joe has said he wants to stay here, and if Borass isn't acting in his best interests, he will be fired That is great, but there is the uncertainty of Joe's back. Joe IS a special player, but he is replaceable. If the Sox can't come to a reasonable agreement, tacking his back into account, he will be moved for young talent. Nothing shocking there.

CaptainBallz
11-28-2006, 01:07 AM
Crede is by no means a special player. His level of production shouldn't be hard to replace.


I was thinking the same thing and have offered my services in the hot corner for '07...

:?:

crazyozzie02
11-28-2006, 01:09 AM
:tealpolice:

Thank you. I was just about to call them

oeo
11-28-2006, 01:09 AM
After watching the low part of his career, and developing into the player he is now, it would hurt to see him being successful in a different uniform. :whiner:

Jerome
11-28-2006, 01:15 AM
I really like Joe Crede. Especially last year. He hit very well last year, and we all see how he can play the field. But that back is very very worrisome to me, why isn't he getting surgery?

Factor in Fields + Bora$ = He gone. I hope KW gets some value for him this year if he can't sign him.

I hope he stays with the Sox but I just can't see it happening.

Jerome
11-28-2006, 01:16 AM
Crede is by no means a special player. His level of production shouldn't be hard to replace.

I wish that was totally true and I wish it was that easy. How is everyone's Josh Fields level of confidence?

WizardsofOzzie
11-28-2006, 01:21 AM
I wish that was totally true and I wish it was that easy. How is everyone's Josh Fields level of confidence?
The same place i was with Crede 3-4 years ago. Who knows if he will pan out to be a superstar like joe. Lets hope so :praying:

Grzegorz
11-28-2006, 05:41 AM
Crede is by no means a special player. His level of production shouldn't be hard to replace.

Define "hard" in "hard to replace."

His production can be replaced but it is a matter of how much it would cost the Chicago White Sox organization.

Craig Grebeck
11-28-2006, 07:54 AM
Define "hard" in "hard to replace."

His production can be replaced but it is a matter of how much it would cost the Chicago White Sox organization.
Despite his breakout season, he still got on base at a very low percentage. He is good with the glove, but don't give him 5/60 because he can field.

Easy to replace i.e. pick up Morgan Ensberg on the cheap and give Fields some time. Ensberg, despite the ignorance of the Astros front office, posted better numbers than Crede last season.

Pasqua's Posers
11-28-2006, 08:12 AM
Crede is by no means a special player. His level of production shouldn't be hard to replace.

:dumbass:

Enough said

jenn2080
11-28-2006, 08:13 AM
Read that article too and I thought it was poor journalism. There is no real Sox fan "dreaming" for Bonds to come play LF. The overwhelming majority of the Sox fanbase can't stand Bonds. So for them to report that is irresponsible, because it made it seem like Sox fans are wishing for Bonds to come to the Sox. If the Sox ever signed Bonds, I would not follow the team until he left.



The majority of every MLB teams fanbase can't stand Bonds.

jenn2080
11-28-2006, 08:16 AM
:dumbass:

Enough said


OH OH OH I 2nd that!

hi im skot
11-28-2006, 08:35 AM
OH OH OH I 2nd that!

Thirded.

In Kenny I trust.
In Kenny I trust.
In Kenny I trust.
In Kenny I trust.
In Kenny I trust.
In Kenny I trust.
In Kenny I trust.
In Kenny I trust.
In Kenny I trust.
In Kenny I trust.
In Kenny I trust.

The offseason sucks.

rdwj
11-28-2006, 08:55 AM
Crede is by no means a special player. His level of production shouldn't be hard to replace.

Wow - just wow! Have you seen him play 3rd?

alohafri
11-28-2006, 09:03 AM
Crede is by no means a special player. His level of production shouldn't be hard to replace.

Yeah, he is no Craig Grebeck.

Rocky Soprano
11-28-2006, 09:26 AM
I'd get rid of Konerko just to keep Crede's glove and clutch bat.

INSox56
11-28-2006, 09:36 AM
I froth at the mouth thinking about having either Shields or fenagling a deal for Arod

Hangar18
11-28-2006, 09:42 AM
........
that back is very very worrisome to me, why isn't he getting surgery?


Thats got $cot Bora$ written all over it. Im very sure hes the one who told Crede to not have the surgery done to drive up the price. He'll have it AFTER he signs a big contract. Watch.

Hangar18
11-28-2006, 09:44 AM
Ensberg, despite the ignorance of the Astros front office, posted better numbers than Crede last season.

He did that alright .............. in the National League.

soxfan13
11-28-2006, 10:07 AM
I'd get rid of Konerko just to keep Crede's glove and clutch bat.


And his bad back that will develop into more of a problem.

Rocky Soprano
11-28-2006, 10:22 AM
And his bad back that will develop into more of a problem.

Like I said, I would rather keep Crede than Konerko.

Hangar18
11-28-2006, 10:24 AM
I like how Dave Van Dyke confirmed what I mentioned last week.
The stupid Cubs are responsible for this overpriced nonsense right now .......
everyones trying to sign guys now before Hendry swoops in and overpays for everyone .......

soxfan13
11-28-2006, 10:35 AM
Like I said, I would rather keep Crede than Konerko.

I love Crede but I dont know why you would throw money at a player that has a iffy back. Its just a matter of time before he needs to get the surgery that they talked about this year.

Jjav829
11-28-2006, 10:52 AM
He's got a pretty god damn good glove, which, IIRC, is also a part of baseball.

But not a part of baseball that is measured in statistical form with much accuracy. :rolleyes:

Lip Man 1
11-28-2006, 11:48 AM
More and more I'm thinking Kenny is going to come back with the same team (except for one or two small moves) and take his chances.

Hard not to fault him, they did win 90 games but I'm reminded of the old adage that, 'if you are standing still you are moving behind.'

We'll see.

Lip

maurice
11-28-2006, 11:48 AM
KW is posturing. The most significant quote is at the very end of the article:
Williams is so low-key about making trades that he will arrive at baseball's annual winter meetings a day and a half after Cubs GM Jim Hendry. "I think people are under the impression we have to move a guy or two," Williams said. "While we see that as the best posturing position for the upcoming year, we're not going to [do that] if it's not best for us."

Teams are low-balling KW because they think he HAS to move a starter. KW wants to increase his leverage by denying it (and by waiting until after the FA pitchers sign huge deals).

As for Crede, keep in mind the things he said about Garland, etc. when their contracts were up. The agents think that he HAS to re-sign the players to big deals. KW wants to increase his leverage by denying it. I suspect he also wants to try to scare Crede into dumping Boras.

I don't know if it will work, but IMO this statement is carefully calculated.

Ol' No. 2
11-28-2006, 11:56 AM
When you've got crap, it's easy to improve the team, but when you've got a 90-win team one year removed from a WS win, it gets a lot harder. That's the way I read Kenny's comments. He's looking to improve, but he's not going to make a deal just to make a deal. It has to make them better.

Flight #24
11-28-2006, 12:02 PM
Nothing new here, not sure what the fuss is all about. Crede's under Sox control for 2 more years, so there's no urgency to get a deal done on KW's side. If indeed Joe & Boras are looking at the early signings and asking for similar $$$, it's 100% appropriate for Kenny to say what he did. He's got the leverage here because especially with a bad back, Joe's taking on all the risk if he holds out for top dollar.

Instead, Kenny can wait, see how the market settles out once the top guys all sign and point to some mid-level deals and say "OK Joe, with the back issues, this is what we can give you right now, if you wait you might get more, but your back might also give out".

It's GM-speak, people, means virtually 0.

soxinem1
11-28-2006, 12:05 PM
While Crede has been clutch the past couple years, you have to look at the reality of the situation. His balky back and lack of a consistent track record, minus the first 4 1/2 months of 2006 really says that 2007 will be a tell-all in this drama.

I must say, KW has a strange way about him sometimes. I remember his extension to Antonio Osuna after 2-3 ST appearances, but refusing to talk contract with Keith Foulke that same year. When Williams talks about Crede, he has the same expression as he did with Ordonez, Thomas, Everett and a few others when contracts were brought up.

If Crede plays 2007 like this year, he is as good as gone, because Boras will get him an $85 million deal in a snap. Say what you want about Boras, he gets his clients their money. If BOS does indeed sign this ridiculous contract with JD Drew, you know Crede will do better, especially being a 3B versus an OF.

Apparently the White Sox feel that they are not ready to bet the ranch on him, and rightfully so. Crede has not shown the all around consistency yet and has been very slow to develop. Ventura did a lot more for the White Sox and was shown the door with no grace or class, and Crede having Boras as his agent is not going to make it better.

My guess is that Crede's last year with the White Sox is 2007. And if the team is out of contention by August, he will be gone then.

I just have a feeling that this will get ugly ala McDowell, Robin, Maggs, Frank...........

BA: The Hitman
11-28-2006, 01:13 PM
Seeing Crede leave would probably be more painful than watching robin ventura go.

I know it's a risk to sign him to a long term deal right now, but if he has a year in 2007 like he did in 2006, the Sox definitely won't be signing him to a long term deal after that with boras as his agent.. It's a risk that I think KW and the white sox can afford and should take. After watching Crede for allthose frustrating years, it would be terrible to see him produce in another uniform. Plus, hes a damn good fielder.

ajismyhero
11-28-2006, 01:22 PM
I like how Dave Van Dyke confirmed what I mentioned last week.
The stupid Cubs are responsible for this overpriced nonsense right now .......
everyones trying to sign guys now before Hendry swoops in and overpays for everyone .......

You would think other teams would learn from the Yankees that a high payroll doesn't equal a World Series ring.....

If the Crede/Garcia for Santana/Figgins trade has any merit, anyone know where they would play Figgins? He has IF and OF experience, which means he could replace Uribe or Pods. I personally wouldn't mind seeing Figgins leadoff at SS and then throw Pods down in the 7 spot - he seemed to produce better at the bottom of the lineup during those couple of games in 2006 and it would give us more speed throughout the lineup...

Hitmen77
11-28-2006, 01:38 PM
KW was saying the same kind of things about Garland and Contreras before they signed their extensions. Remember all the talk last winter about how the Sox "weren't hopeful" of getting a deal worked out with either of those pitchers? KW saying this now about Crede doesn't really tell me anything about his future with the team.

Since Crede won't be a free agent until after the '08 season, I don't expect any deals or trades to happen now. I think the Sox will keep Crede through 2007 and then next winter choose one of two options:

1) Work out a contract extension with Joe

or, if they can't come to an agreement on an extension:

2) Trade him for a bunch of talent and designate Josh Fields as our 2008 3B.


I'd like to see Crede here for a long time, but I'm not worried about the Sox situation here. They have Joe for '07 while Fields gets another year of experience under his belt. After '07, if they can't work out a deal, he's still tradable, we'd get alot in return for him and Josh Fields should be ready by opening day 2008.

soxtalker
11-28-2006, 01:38 PM
Seeing Crede leave would probably be more painful than watching robin ventura go.

I know it's a risk to sign him to a long term deal right now, but if he has a year in 2007 like he did in 2006, the Sox definitely won't be signing him to a long term deal after that with boras as his agent.. It's a risk that I think KW and the white sox can afford and should take. After watching Crede for allthose frustrating years, it would be terrible to see him produce in another uniform. Plus, hes a damn good fielder.

The problem is that it is a risk that the Sox probably do not believe that they can afford to take. Crede's back problems present a big risk. In recent years, the Sox have been pretty consistent in wanting to avoid medical risks with costly players. For example, they weren't willing to take the risk with either Maggs or Frank. (Yes, there were other issues, but the medical risks were major factors.) If they didn't have a fairly good alternative with Fields, it might be different (though I'm not even sure of that).

I feel some sentiment in favor of Crede, but, quite frankly, it isn't a risk that I would like to see them take. Sure, it will hurt to see him doing well elsewhere, but it would feel worse to be hamstrung by a $10 - $15MM contract for several years while he's on the DL. And KW will probably get considerable value in a deal for him.

1917
11-28-2006, 01:51 PM
My faith in Josh Fields stepping in at 3rd and producing in 2007 are low..it took Robin 2 years...Crede 2 years....we suffered thru a project with BA in 2006...Fields should be eased into 3rd base....If Crede is traded, and don't get all mad, but Mack should be our 3rd basemen...I believe that is the position he played in Pit (not CF).....

FielderJones
11-28-2006, 02:01 PM
Ensberg, despite the ignorance of the Astros front office, posted better numbers than Crede last season.

:?:
Ensberg (http://www.sportsline.com/mlb/players/playerpage/205022)
Crede (http://www.sportsline.com/mlb/players/playerpage/23555)

Better numbers in what? Not showing up to play? And you're worried about Crede's back? Sorry, but I want more out of a 3B than taking walks.

At least take a look at the stats before posting nonsense like that.

mjmcend
11-28-2006, 02:06 PM
Thats got $cot Bora$ written all over it. Im very sure hes the one who told Crede to not have the surgery done to drive up the price. He'll have it AFTER he signs a big contract. Watch.

That makes zero sense.

Wouldn't having the surgery make him more attractive to sign long term.
I doubt Crede is taking medical advice from his agent. Even if his agent is Satan.

Maybe Crede doesn't want to have surgery because it is a risky endeavor that may lower his quality of life outside the diamond after he hangs up the glove.

Hitmen77
11-28-2006, 02:15 PM
My faith in Josh Fields stepping in at 3rd and producing in 2007 are low..it took Robin 2 years...Crede 2 years....we suffered thru a project with BA in 2006...Fields should be eased into 3rd base....If Crede is traded, and don't get all mad, but Mack should be our 3rd basemen...I believe that is the position he played in Pit (not CF).....

...and that's why, if Fields replaces Crede, it won't happen until 2008.

mjmcend
11-28-2006, 02:16 PM
:?:
Ensberg (http://www.sportsline.com/mlb/players/playerpage/205022)
Crede (http://www.sportsline.com/mlb/players/playerpage/23555)

Better numbers in what? Not showing up to play? And you're worried about Crede's back? Sorry, but I want more out of a 3B than taking walks.

At least take a look at the stats before posting nonsense like that.

If given the same # of ABs, Ensberg beats Crede in every catagory except average. And he blows him out of the water in OBP.

esbrechtel
11-28-2006, 02:24 PM
reading that article was a kick to the stomach...i am disappointed in the loyalty in prosports...save konerko (taking a hometown discount) everyone is in it for the money...rarely do you see a player go through his entire career in one place...i think thats sad, crede is a terrific player and has played through his back problems for two years i dont think thats going to be a problem, i wish the sox would just lock him up, i dont want to watch the chris snopeks of the world play 3rd for the sox....(chone figgins included...)

hi im skot
11-28-2006, 02:27 PM
reading that article was a kick to the stomach...i am disappointed in the loyalty in prosports...save konerko (taking a hometown discount) everyone is in it for the money...rarely do you see a player go through his entire career in one place...i think thats sad, crede is a terrific player and has played through his back problems for two years i dont think thats going to be a problem, i wish the sox would just lock him up, i dont want to watch the chris snopeks of the world play 3rd for the sox....(chone figgins included...)

I don't think the issue is necessarily with Crede's loyalty. It might have more to do with KW's interest in keeping him around; perhaps he feels that Fields will truly be an upgrade in the long run.

I love love love Joe and would be beyond bummed to see him go, but I think we're all getting a little worked up over a non-issue.

We shall see, though.

rdwj
11-28-2006, 02:36 PM
If given the same # of ABs, Ensberg beats Crede in every catagory except average. And he blows him out of the water in OBP.

*sigh*

Unfortunately, you're not including the thing that Crede does best in your comparison.

mjmcend
11-28-2006, 02:47 PM
*sigh*

Unfortunately, you're not including the thing that Crede does best in your comparison.

Defense. I get it.

Doesn't make him worth PK money.

Ol' No. 2
11-28-2006, 02:51 PM
If given the same # of ABs, Ensberg beats Crede in every catagory except average. And he blows him out of the water in OBP.This one might make a teensey bit of difference:

w/RISP, BA/SLG:
Ensberg: .225/.402
Crede: .343/.500

hi im skot
11-28-2006, 02:52 PM
This one might make a teensey bit of difference:

w/RISP, BA/SLG:
Ensberg: .225/.402
Crede: .343/.500

:thumbsup:

southwstchi4life
11-28-2006, 03:01 PM
I'd get rid of Konerko just to keep Crede's glove and clutch bat.


Easily. Im glad somebody actually criticizes Konerko. I got really sick of him leaving men on base last year. Credes glove and clutch bat will be missed if he leaves next year. More improtantly his humbleness.

Ol' No. 2
11-28-2006, 03:27 PM
Easily. Im glad somebody actually criticizes Konerko. I got really sick of him leaving men on base last year. Credes glove and clutch bat will be missed if he leaves next year. More improtantly his humbleness.My god, you're right. In 142 AB with RISP, that bum Konerko hit only .366 with 8 HR and 74 RBI.

Corlose 15
11-28-2006, 03:34 PM
This thread is getting ridiculous. I didn't realize that WSI had so many medical professionals that are also back experts.:rolleyes: First of all the knowledge we have about Crede's back condition is very limited. What we do know however is that Herm Schneider (whose opinion I respect more anyone here) said that as long as Crede does the required physical therapy there is really no difference between that and surgery. Now, if with surgery you have chance of paralysis (however small it may be) and limited mobility why wouldn't you go another route if possible?

soxtalker
11-28-2006, 03:35 PM
I don't think the issue is necessarily with Crede's loyalty. It might have more to do with KW's interest in keeping him around; perhaps he feels that Fields will truly be an upgrade in the long run.

I love love love Joe and would be beyond bummed to see him go, but I think we're all getting a little worked up over a non-issue.

We shall see, though.

I don't detect any animosity on behalf of either Joe or KW. And both would probably like to see something work out here. But both sides have their own issues that seem to make a trade more and more likely.

As I said earlier, KW and the Sox probably don't feel that they can take the risk of Crede's back problems. The surgery would have mitigated that risk long-term with a small amount of near-term risk that there would be complications in the surgery. The Sox have some urgency, given the timing on Crede's contract and a similar timeframe for Fields development.

Crede probably has a different timeframe. There's a small, but real, chance that surgery will end his career (and maybe worse). As long as he can postpone the surgery, he avoids that outcome. Waiting might cost him the chance to stay in Chicago, but it is very likely he'll be able to continue to play somewhere and for a lot of money.

Sure, the Sox can wait a year, but the pressure for them to do something only increases over time. If someone comes through with a good offer now, Fields is probably close enough. It's not ideal, but probably good enough for KW to consider taking the chance if the right offer comes along.

Mickster
11-28-2006, 03:36 PM
My god, you're right. In 142 AB with RISP, that bum Konerko hit only .366 with 8 HR and 74 RBI.

What a loser. :neener:

Craig Grebeck
11-28-2006, 03:36 PM
This one might make a teensey bit of difference:

w/RISP, BA/SLG:
Ensberg: .225/.402
Crede: .343/.500
Quite honestly I don't care. Ensberg still posted an .843 OPS in these situations, so it's not like he was anemic. That's a horrible rationale to take when judging a player. Stats like this fluctuate considerably from year to year, and can't take precedent over season long stats. AROD has had a bad stretch, do you pass on him because someone else has better RISP numbers? Take a look at those stats for Ensberg in 2005, they aren't constant year to year.
Easily. Im glad somebody actually criticizes Konerko. I got really sick of him leaving men on base last year.
RISP STATS (Which I hate, but do some freakin' research before you slam)
.366/.421/.599/1.020
What about 2 out RISP?
.309/.415/.509/.924
Credes glove and clutch bat will be missed if he leaves next year.
Actually, if you look at the stats provided, Crede was much less "clutch" than Konerko.
More improtantly his humbleness.
Well, considering our manager can at times be a huge egomaniac, I think the team will manage without the magical powers of Crede's (alleged) humbleness.
*sigh*

Unfortunately, you're not including the thing that Crede does best in your comparison.
Crede being a good fielder and having a slightly above average bat does not make him worth what he'll ask for. Ensberg will probably make less than half what Crede will ask for and will produce better offensively.

Craig Grebeck
11-28-2006, 03:37 PM
My god, you're right. In 142 AB with RISP, that bum Konerko hit only .366 with 8 HR and 74 RBI.
Beat me to it.

What do people have against the guy? He has been incredibly consistent the last three seasons.

Ol' No. 2
11-28-2006, 03:42 PM
Quite honestly I don't care. Ensberg still posted an .843 OPS in these situations, so it's not like he was anemic. That's a horrible rationale to take when judging a player. Stats like this fluctuate considerably from year to year, and can't take precedent over season long stats. AROD has had a bad stretch, do you pass on him because someone else has better RISP numbers? Take a look at those stats for Ensberg in 2005, they aren't constant year to year.Yep, when the game's on the line and the critical runs are in scoring position, what every team needs is someone like Ensberg who can draw a walk.:rolleyes:

They had almost the same number of PA with RISP last year. Ensberg drove in 33, Crede drove in 61.

mjmcend
11-28-2006, 03:44 PM
This one might make a teensey bit of difference:

w/RISP, BA/SLG:
Ensberg: .225/.402
Crede: .343/.500

Career stats:

w/RISP, BA/SLG:
Ensberg: .281 /.466
Crede: .291/.470

DaleJRFan
11-28-2006, 03:46 PM
Yep, when the game's on the line and the critical runs are in scoring position, what every team needs is someone like Ensberg who can draw a walk.:rolleyes:

They had almost the same number of PA with RISP last year. Ensberg drove in 33, Crede drove in 61.

I wonder how amazing Morgan Ensberg's OBP and OPS numbers would be when he's facing dominant AL Central pitching like Crede has over the past 4-5 seasons and not AAAA rotations in the weak ass NL Central.

Crede >>> Ensberg.

Craig Grebeck
11-28-2006, 03:49 PM
I wonder how amazing Morgan Ensberg's OBP and OPS numbers would be when he's facing dominant AL Central pitching like Crede has over the past 4-5 seasons and not AAAA rotations in the weak ass NL Central.

Crede >>> Ensberg.
Based on what?

Ol' No. 2
11-28-2006, 03:50 PM
Career stats:

w/RISP, BA/SLG:
Ensberg: .281 /.466
Crede: .291/.470So which is more indicative of what each player is going to do NEXT YEAR (which is what we really care about), their 2006 numbers or their 2003 numbers?

Craig Grebeck
11-28-2006, 03:53 PM
As the team stands right now, they need someone who can draw a walk. Outside of Thome and Konerko, there aren't any patient hitters. Jermaine's IsoD went up this season, but that was probably a product of fearful pitchers. Uribe, AJ, BA and Crede were all below average at getting on base, and Ensberg's patience would be a huge asset. We can afford to sacrifice some SLG for some OBP.

Craig Grebeck
11-28-2006, 03:53 PM
So which is more indicative of what each player is going to do NEXT YEAR (which is what we really care about), their 2006 numbers or their 2003 numbers?
As far as garbage stats like BA/RISP go, they fluctuate from year to year. Most of the time players have similar stats in all situations.

The Dude
11-28-2006, 03:54 PM
Typical White Sox....

They still don't act like a World Championship team. I'm not saying spend freely like a lot of teams are doing on overrated players. In order to keep your home players over a period of time, they're going to have to spend the money to keep them, aka Konerko.

Nah Mike, I don't think this falls under the "typical White Sox" but under a smart & cautious way of doing business. I think KW is trying to put the best team that 100 million can buy on the field without having 5 players on the roster ala the Yankees that aren't even playing because of injuries. As you know, Crede is a very important part of this team but let's face it...his back is a problem and the other problem lies with his agent. I hope things will be worked out but if not, I hope we can get something solid for him.

By the way, it's been a long month and I'm glad to be back! Missed all of y'all!:gulp:

mjmcend
11-28-2006, 03:58 PM
So which is more indicative of what each player is going to do NEXT YEAR (which is what we really care about), their 2006 numbers or their 2003 numbers?

Doesn't the career averages seem to indicate that Crede will regress some next year while Ensberg will rebound?

Do you believe a player can become more clutch during his career?
I am not saying that his BA w/ RISP cannot improve as he improves as a hitter (which Crede seemingly did) just that this 'clutch factor' or 'ice water in veins' or ablility to handle pressure would not seem to be something that would improve by leaps and bounds.

And I just for the record I don't believe Ensberg is a better player than Crede, just that he might be a better value when you factor in cost plus health risk.

Ol' No. 2
11-28-2006, 04:01 PM
As far as garbage stats like BA/RISP go, they fluctuate from year to year. Most of the time players have similar stats in all situations.I realize you're just repeating the standard stathead line, but even Bill James is beginning to admit that there is such a thing as "clutch hitting".

Craig Grebeck
11-28-2006, 04:05 PM
I realize you're just repeating the standard stathead line, but even Bill James is beginning to admit that there is such a thing as "clutch hitting".
I believe there's such a thing as clutch, but not necessarily clutch players. Ensberg has better stats than Crede across the board, so his RISP numbers shouldn't automatically give Crede a huge advantage. Especially when their OPS are close.

I just believe signing Crede to 5/60 is stupid when Ensberg is just waiting to be picked up by a smart franchise (and make less than half that).

mjmcend
11-28-2006, 04:08 PM
I realize you're just repeating the standard stathead line, but even Bill James is beginning to admit that there is such a thing as "clutch hitting".

However, it still tends fluctuate from year to year just as batting average does. So wouldn't Crede be more likely to return closer to his career averages and Ensberg rebound?

Ol' No. 2
11-28-2006, 04:19 PM
However, it still tends fluctuate from year to year just as batting average does. So wouldn't Crede be more likely to return closer to his career averages and Ensberg rebound?Why would they? Is there some kind of unknown force that makes a player decline if he's had an above average year and improve if he's had a below average one? Players often improve in their first 5-6 years in the league.

I don't know what "board" people are looking across, but the only stat Ensberg leads Crede in is his walk rate, and we all know that's the most important thing to look for in a player.

I can't believe this is seriously up for discussion. Crede >>>> Ensberg in just about every phase of the game.

chisoxmike
11-28-2006, 04:24 PM
Nah Mike, I don't think this falls under the "typical White Sox" but under a smart & cautious way of doing business. I think KW is trying to put the best team that 100 million can buy on the field without having 5 players on the roster ala the Yankees that aren't even playing because of injuries. As you know, Crede is a very important part of this team but let's face it...his back is a problem and the other problem lies with his agent. I hope things will be worked out but if not, I hope we can get something solid for him.

By the way, it's been a long month and I'm glad to be back! Missed all of y'all!:gulp:

Hey hey, look at that, The Dude is here! :bandance:

Yes, Crede is a important piece to the team, the back scares me and I know thats why KW isn't going to throw a ton of money on him like a lot of teams will. That's why I'm grateful for KW. He's a smart guy, unlike the GM on the other side of town.:tongue:

Craig Grebeck
11-28-2006, 04:37 PM
Why would they? Is there some kind of unknown force that makes a player decline if he's had an above average year and improve if he's had a below average one? Players often improve in their first 5-6 years in the league.

I don't know what "board" people are looking across, but the only stat Ensberg leads Crede in is his walk rate, and we all know that's the most important thing to look for in a player.

I can't believe this is seriously up for discussion. Crede >>>> Ensberg in just about every phase of the game.

As I posted earlier, we need OBP. We have enough SLG driven .800 OPS players.

Ol' No. 2
11-28-2006, 04:42 PM
As I posted earlier, we need OBP. We have enough SLG driven .800 OPS players.But the way to get it is not by sacrificing guys like Crede. Going from Crede to Ensberg is an overall downgrade even if they do improve their OBP. There are plenty of weak areas in which they can improve.

Craig Grebeck
11-28-2006, 04:48 PM
But the way to get it is not by sacrificing guys like Crede. Going from Crede to Ensberg is an overall downgrade even if they do improve their OBP. There are plenty of weak areas in which they can improve.
Ensberg had a higher OPS last season than Crede. It is hardly a downgrade.

Maybe it's from playing in the Juice Box? But if you look at OPS+ (takes park factors into account) Ensberg had Crede there 118-108.

The point is that Ensberg and Crede are close offensively, with the edge going to Ensberg (OPS+). And the monetary difference makes Crede's defensive edge moot.

Ol' No. 2
11-28-2006, 04:53 PM
Ensberg had a higher OPS last season than Crede. It is hardly a downgrade.

Maybe it's from playing in the Juice Box? But if you look at OPS+ (takes park factors into account) Ensberg had Crede there 118-108.

The point is that Ensberg and Crede are close offensively, with the edge going to Ensberg (OPS+). And the monetary difference makes Crede's defensive edge moot.The only reason Ensberg had a higher OPS was because of the higher walk rate. His BA and SLG were both lower.

There is only one thing Morgan Ensberg does better than Joe Crede. If you need someone to draw a walk, call Ensberg. For everything else, Crede is far better. It's not even close.

mjmcend
11-28-2006, 04:55 PM
Why would they? Is there some kind of unknown force that makes a player decline if he's had an above average year and improve if he's had a below average one? Players often improve in their first 5-6 years in the league.

I don't know what "board" people are looking across, but the only stat Ensberg leads Crede in is his walk rate, and we all know that's the most important thing to look for in a player.

I can't believe this is seriously up for discussion. Crede >>>> Ensberg in just about every phase of the game.


Throughout the game, players who have had a year highly above thier career averages tend to not repeat those lofty stats again. This is called a career year. It does tend to happen about 5-6 years into a major leauge career which is also the time a player is up for free agency for the first time. I know you know this fact and I don't know why you are denying it now.

Ensberg also has more HR\AB. And OBP is an important part of a team's offense. Less outs are always a good thing.

And like I said before Crede is a better player than Ensberg. However, I believe Ensberg value is higher with respect to Crede's contract situation and health. If we could trade Crede at his maximum value and get Ensberg on the cheap, I believe this would be a net plus for the Sox. I don't know how feasible this is, though.

mjmcend
11-28-2006, 04:58 PM
The only reason Ensberg had a higher OPS was because of the higher walk rate. His BA and SLG were both lower.

There is only one thing Morgan Ensberg does better than Joe Crede. If you need someone to draw a walk, call Ensberg. For everything else, Crede is far better. It's not even close.

Or hit a homerun. Ensberg is the better bet there as well. And in everything else, they are close with the edge to Crede. This is the point. They are similar players with Crede being better.

Ol' No. 2
11-28-2006, 05:04 PM
Throughout the game, players who have had a year highly above thier career averages tend to not repeat those lofty stats again. This is called a career year. It does tend to happen about 5-6 years into a major leauge career which is also the time a player is up for free agency for the first time. I know you know this fact and I don't know why you are denying it now.

Ensberg also has more HR\AB. And OBP is an important part of a team's offense. Less outs are always a good thing.

And like I said before Crede is a better player than Ensberg. However, I believe Ensberg value is higher with respect to Crede's contract situation and health. If we could trade Crede at his maximum value and get Ensberg on the cheap, I believe this would be a net plus for the Sox. I don't know how feasible this is, though.What a load of over-generalized poppycock. Paul Konerko had the two worst seasons of his career in his 5th and 6th full years in the league, and there are plenty of other examples. Just because you occasionally find an Adrian Beltre, that doesn't make it the norm.

Secondly, Crede's BA last year was only 20 pts above his career average - hardly a "lofty stat". And calling a player's 4th full year in the bigs a "career year" is patently absurd.

the gooch
11-28-2006, 05:32 PM
What a load of over-generalized poppycock. Paul Konerko had the two worst seasons of his career in his 5th and 6th full years in the league, and there are plenty of other examples. Just because you occasionally find an Adrian Beltre, that doesn't make it the norm.

Secondly, Crede's BA last year was only 20 pts above his career average - hardly a "lofty stat". And calling a player's 4th full year in the bigs a "career year" is patently absurd.
Then we got jobbed in the Cotts trade.

Hangar18
11-28-2006, 05:37 PM
Then we got jobbed in the Cotts trade.



I still dont understand that trade ......

southwstchi4life
11-28-2006, 05:47 PM
My god, you're right. In 142 AB with RISP, that bum Konerko hit only .366 with 8 HR and 74 RBI.

Well let me ask you a question. With men in scoring position, outside of pods and BA who else on this team would you want to be up. personally, Id take anyone else but konerko and his double plays. Im not taking away anything hes done in 2005, but come on, im so sick of his double plays with men on. I can't be the only one

UserNameBlank
11-28-2006, 06:01 PM
Well let me ask you a question. With men in scoring position, outside of pods and BA who else on this team would you want to be up. personally, Id take anyone else but konerko and his double plays. Im not taking away anything hes done in 2005, but come on, im so sick of his double plays with men on. I can't be the only one

You just got owned. Deal with it.

soxinem1
11-28-2006, 06:06 PM
Why would they? Is there some kind of unknown force that makes a player decline if he's had an above average year and improve if he's had a below average one? Players often improve in their first 5-6 years in the league.

I don't know what "board" people are looking across, but the only stat Ensberg leads Crede in is his walk rate, and we all know that's the most important thing to look for in a player.

I can't believe this is seriously up for discussion. Crede >>>> Ensberg in just about every phase of the game.


I second your point with Ensberg's career numbers. Did anyone seem to forget that the Astros tried to dump him in 2004 when he hit one HR in the first half and finished up with about 10 in HR-happy Enron-Minute maid?

Plus defensively, he is not close to Crede. He has the range of a turtle.

Additionally, didn't he get a nice trip to AAA last year? For a team that was starving for runs, he sure looks like a guy they don't want themselves, so what good will he do us?

mjmcend
11-28-2006, 06:16 PM
For a team that was starving for runs, he sure looks like a guy they don't want themselves, so what good will he do us?

That is the point I am trying to make. They don't seem like they want him ergo we can get him on the cheap. Crede's value is at an all time high and we could get a bundle for him. My arguing of Ensberg's vs. Crede's stats is just to illustrate that Ensberg is not a huge dropoff from Crede not that he is better than Joe.

Ol' No. 2
11-28-2006, 06:23 PM
That is the point I am trying to make. They don't seem like they want him ergo we can get him on the cheap. Crede's value is at an all time high and we could get a bundle for him. My arguing of Ensberg's vs. Crede's stats is just to illustrate that Ensberg is not a huge dropoff from Crede not that he is better than Joe.So we make the team better by grabbing up players that aren't good enough for other teams to want to keep?

Why didn't I think of that?

mjmcend
11-28-2006, 06:27 PM
So we make the team better by grabbing up players that aren't good enough for other teams to want to keep?

Why didn't I think of that?

Like Jermaine Dye, El Duque, or A.J? Glad Kenny Williams thought of that.

soxinem1
11-28-2006, 06:28 PM
That is the point I am trying to make. They don't seem like they want him ergo we can get him on the cheap. Crede's value is at an all time high and we could get a bundle for him. My arguing of Ensberg's vs. Crede's stats is just to illustrate that Ensberg is not a huge dropoff from Crede not that he is better than Joe.

Okay, but if they don't want him being nearly last in runs scored and driven in, apparently he's not as clutch or valuable as you say.

Plus, he cannot hold JC's glove. Sorry, this one doesn't hold well with me.

I'd rather ride this drama out.

munchman33
11-28-2006, 07:00 PM
What a load of over-generalized poppycock. Paul Konerko had the two worst seasons of his career in his 5th and 6th full years in the league, and there are plenty of other examples. Just because you occasionally find an Adrian Beltre, that doesn't make it the norm.

Secondly, Crede's BA last year was only 20 pts above his career average - hardly a "lofty stat". And calling a player's 4th full year in the bigs a "career year" is patently absurd.

I don't know Ol'....Crede did seriously nose dive in the second half last year. I really hope it was the back and not a regression back to the player he was before.

Honestly, I'd rather not find out and get a ton for him now. Even if we can't pick someone up like Ensberg, our best prospect is ready to fill in.

Ol' No. 2
11-28-2006, 07:10 PM
I don't know Ol'....Crede did seriously nose dive in the second half last year. I really hope it was the back and not a regression back to the player he was before.

Honestly, I'd rather not find out and get a ton for him now. Even if we can't pick someone up like Ensberg, our best prospect is ready to fill in.I have no objection to trading Crede or anyone else, for that matter, as long as it results in a net improvement. But if they did, I'd rather take my chances with Fields than Ensberg. Figgins could be the Plan B if Fields flops.

I'm just not sure how to round out this trade so the Sox wind up with a net improvement. You'd certainly want more back for Crede than just Figgins, but I don't see them getting Santana or Shields included.

munchman33
11-28-2006, 07:27 PM
I have no objection to trading Crede or anyone else, for that matter, as long as it results in a net improvement. But if they did, I'd rather take my chances with Fields than Ensberg. Figgins could be the Plan B if Fields flops.

I'm just not sure how to round out this trade so the Sox wind up with a net improvement. You'd certainly want more back for Crede than just Figgins, but I don't see them getting Santana or Shields included.

I know what you mean. Anything we could do to get a Santana back would be huge, but I just don't think we have enough. We'd need to send young talent too. The rumors of us sending Freddy with Crede for Santana/Figgins is just ludacris. I'm sure the Angels would rather have Santana, especially given Freddy's cost/age/declining skill. McCarthy/Crede would make more sense for the Angels, but IMO McCarthy has just as much of a chance to be a stud next year as Santana has.

I'm actually pro starting Fields out there next year....so long as we get better offensive options in CF AND LF. Figgins in LF would be fine by me, but we'd need a better option than BA in center for me to want Fields over Crede. I have more faith in Fields ability to hit than BA (he actually reminds me of a young Crede), but I'd still rather have a proven bat if we're gonna throw a rookie in there who might become an automatic out like BA did last year.

TheVulture
11-28-2006, 07:37 PM
Honestly, I'd rather not find out and get a ton for him now. Even if we can't pick someone up like Ensberg, our best prospect is ready to fill in.

How is Fields ready? He batted .250 with 150 K's at frickin' AA last year! It would be like Brian Anderson times 10 if he is handed the 3b job next year.

Frater Perdurabo
11-28-2006, 08:28 PM
I'm shocked no one picked up on this kernel of festering camel vomit in the linked story:

More trades between the Sox and Cubs for starting pitching might seem logical, except the Cubs have little to offer in return.

We all agree the Cubs have nothing of value that the Sox would want. SO

WHY WOULD THE SOX TRADING STARTING PITCHING TO THE CUBS EVEN SEEM "LOGICAL?"

:kukoo:

The Tribune has sunk so far in its pro-Cubs corporate "synergy" homerism that it says it would seem "logical" for the Sox to trade starting pitching to the Cubs. It's as if, in the Cubune's world, the Sox somehow OWE the Cubs and really should do all they can to help out their North Side neighbors, because it's "logical" for the South Side working class drug dealing, child molesting wife beaters to give their best assets to the world-class, knowledgeable saints who make their annual treks to the Friendly Confines.
(Blue type chosen becuse the Cubune actively acts to create and perpetuate these stereotypes.)

:knue
"There's a moat separating our editorial operation from our corporate bosses, er, siblings."

:kukoo:

Domeshot17
11-28-2006, 09:18 PM
I have said it for a few weeks, I love Joe Crede, but you have to believe he is worth 5 years and 70 million to not consider trading him. Personally, I want more then 1 pretty good year (and a very inconsistent one at that) before dealing out that money.

As smart as Kenny is with players, he has been even smarter with money. He knew Konerko would be worth his deal (especially with the market now) and he also knows Crede is worth 5 for 40 or 45, but nothing beyond that.

I guess it could be argued Crede has more Value then Furcal, and Furcal got 13 million a year, but 1 of 2 things has to happen here. Either Kenny has to realize the market is way over inflated and these guys arent worth it, OR, the market has severly changed over a few years, and this is the trend.

From the Crede Standpoint, he has a lot of choices to make. (to whoever asked, you don't have the back surgery because back surgery is a major concern over your entire career, could be 8 years removed, and teams will still worry 10 times more over a surgically repaired back then they will soar one). Crede has to first decide if he wants to stay in chicago for good money, or leave for bloated. If Crede posts another 30 home run season, he will get the same deal Aramis got. The 2nd choice he has to make AFTER that is who is my new agent? Because Boras does not give home town discounts. He will push Crede to the market, because he knows there is more money there

Either way, this is why you have prospects, eventually, a player leaves, either for FA, injury, retirement, and they need to be replaced. The question isn't if Crede will one day be replaced, it is when. And the major hold up, no one has the ball right now, its sitting at center court.

Frater Perdurabo
11-28-2006, 09:31 PM
Is it true that at one point Crede was quoted as saying that he wants to stay in Chicago and that if he needs to change agents to make it happen, he will do so?

If he said that (and I've never seen an actual link to such a statement), and if he means it, then it may be time for Crede to signal to both Boras and KW that he wants to work out a long-term extension now. Who knows, maybe he's doing that just now?

In the meantime, and in the absence of any real new and confirmed information, let's just not jump off cliffs.
:rolleyes:

Cuck_The_Fubs
11-28-2006, 09:32 PM
I wish that was totally true and I wish it was that easy. How is everyone's Josh Fields level of confidence?
On a scale of 1-10 (10 being the ighest level of confidence), id definitely say 1.

Domeshot17
11-28-2006, 09:35 PM
Im at about a 7 for Fields, but that is over his career, not year 1. I dont think anyone can be as bad as Brian was, but he could be very early crede esque

Craig Grebeck
11-28-2006, 11:44 PM
So we make the team better by grabbing up players that aren't good enough for other teams to want to keep?

Why didn't I think of that?
Maybe, just maybe, the Astros are not a smart organization and we can take advantage of their ignorance. For Christ's sake they have Willy Taveras as their starting CF! This isn't exactly a team that's well run and it would be nice to pick up an underrated 3b for next to nothing.

Will you at least agree that Ensberg is better at not making outs, a skill that any team could use? It's not like we'd have to give up a ton to get him.

gobears1987
11-29-2006, 12:06 AM
Crede is by no means a special player. His level of production shouldn't be hard to replace.
Shoota, is that you?

Craig Grebeck
11-29-2006, 12:07 AM
Shoota, is that you?
No. But if a 108 OPS+ is hard to replace, we're in trouble.

gobears1987
11-29-2006, 12:10 AM
No. But if a 108 OPS+ is hard to replace, we're in trouble.
Have you seen his glovework? Do you take his clutchness into effect?

Let me guess, you don't count his homers in blowouts or any of his fielding plays because Royce Clayton would've done the same.

Jjav829
11-29-2006, 12:30 AM
Is it true that at one point Crede was quoted as saying that he wants to stay in Chicago and that if he needs to change agents to make it happen, he will do so?

If he said that (and I've never seen an actual link to such a statement), and if he means it, then it may be time for Crede to signal to both Boras and KW that he wants to work out a long-term extension now. Who knows, maybe he's doing that just now?

In the meantime, and in the absence of any real new and confirmed information, let's just not jump off cliffs.
:rolleyes:

Yes, he said that. I had it in my sig for a while.

Crede told the Daily Southtown in July that he wanted to continue his career on the South Side and that if he believed his representation was not keeping his best interest in mind, "I'd make some changes."

However, that brings to question just what exactly constitutes "keeping his best interest in mind." It could be that he feels getting the most money he can get is keeping his best interest in mind.

nodiggity59
11-29-2006, 12:31 AM
Shoota, is that you?

Shoota isn't counting Crede's 06 performance b/c he should have been on the DL anyway. Therefore, he would not be hard to replace.

FedEx227
11-29-2006, 12:35 AM
Shoota isn't counting Crede's 06 performance b/c he should have been on the DL anyway. Therefore, he would not be hard to replace.

Well last year doesn't count of course, because as you said he should've had a back problem. Add that to the fact that he faced a lot of bad pitchers. Minus the bad pitchers, awful pitches, good swings and he only had maybe 2-3 HRs, 16-17 RBIs, hardly a great season.

tomgordon1
11-29-2006, 01:51 AM
I would hate to see Crede leave the Sox. He started here and made a difference, especially in 2005. His breakthrough year was in '06 and may have continued that success into next year. It would be nice to hold much of the 2005 roster as much as possible, but he will go eventually.

As for Bonds, I would love to see the whole stadium at the right field bleachers when he hits his homer to break the all-time record but of course, we'd never sign a big name player like him. Plus, he would be too slow in the outfield.

Craig Grebeck
11-29-2006, 08:00 AM
Have you seen his glovework? Do you take his clutchness into effect?

Let me guess, you don't count his homers in blowouts or any of his fielding plays because Royce Clayton would've done the same.
Are you taking his bad back and his agent into account? His offensive production is not worth 6/60.

HerzogVon
11-29-2006, 09:27 AM
I'd get rid of Konerko just to keep Crede's glove and clutch bat.

Not sure if you mean it, but I concur anyway. Joe is step two in Kenny's plan to get rid of The Stooges and replace them with Konerko and HIS stooge, Thome. Aaron was step one. Can AJ be far behind?

In Kenny I DO NOT trust! :angry:

SBSoxFan
11-29-2006, 10:47 AM
I love Crede but I dont know why you would throw money at a player that has a iffy back. Its just a matter of time before he needs to get the surgery that they talked about this year.

The Sox threw a fair amount of money and 3 players for Thome, who also has a bad back.

DaveIsHere
11-29-2006, 10:49 AM
Not sure if you mean it, but I concur anyway. Joe is step two in Kenny's plan to get rid of The Stooges and replace them with Konerko and HIS stooge, Thome. Aaron was step one. Can AJ be far behind?

In Kenny I DO NOT trust! :angry:

That makes no sense.

soxinem1
11-29-2006, 11:07 AM
Not sure if you mean it, but I concur anyway. Joe is step two in Kenny's plan to get rid of The Stooges and replace them with Konerko and HIS stooge, Thome. Aaron was step one. Can AJ be far behind?

In Kenny I DO NOT trust! :angry:


What does this mean? If you are not a KW fan, that's okay because a lot of us don't agree with everything he has done, but referring to any of the major players on the 2005-2007 rosters as Stooges is pretty dumb.

Get a grip, will ya?

Ol' No. 2
11-29-2006, 11:09 AM
Maybe, just maybe, the Astros are not a smart organization and we can take advantage of their ignorance. For Christ's sake they have Willy Taveras as their starting CF! This isn't exactly a team that's well run and it would be nice to pick up an underrated 3b for next to nothing.

Will you at least agree that Ensberg is better at not making outs, a skill that any team could use? It's not like we'd have to give up a ton to get him.Stop with the Moneyball drivel already. Ensberg may be better at not making outs, but I just don't care. I care about my leadoff hitter's OBP, but for my #6 hitter, OBP is well down the list. He's there to drive in runs, and Crede is head and shoulders above Ensberg in that department.

oeo
11-29-2006, 11:13 AM
What does this mean? If you are not a KW fan, that's okay because a lot of us don't agree with everything he has done, but referring to any of the major players on the 2005-2007 rosters as Stooges is pretty dumb.

Get a grip, will ya?

I think 'Stooges' is short for "Three Stooges" (AJ, Rowand, and Crede in 2005).

But still, if Kenny doesn't think re-signing Crede is going to be a possibility, then trading him for the better of the team over the long run is the better move. It has nothing to do with him wanting to 'get rid of the Stooges'. It's a business, it's not all about making friends.

Ol' No. 2
11-29-2006, 11:23 AM
Why is there so much concern about re-signing Crede and how much he's going to get? He's not a FA for two more years. If they can't agree on a multi-year deal they'll almost certainly sign him to a one-year deal at around $6-7M.

WizardsofOzzie
11-29-2006, 11:55 AM
Why is there so much concern about re-signing Crede and how much he's going to get? He's not a FA for two more years. If they can't agree on a multi-year deal they'll almost certainly sign him to a one-year deal at around $6-7M.
I think people are going with the mentality that if we won't be able to re-sign him once he becomes a FA, we should use him as trade bait to acquire our needs for this year.

Ol' No. 2
11-29-2006, 11:59 AM
I think people are going with the mentality that if we won't be able to re-sign him once he becomes a FA, we should use him as trade bait to acquire our needs for this year.If he was entering his walk year, I might agree with that, but with two relatively cheap years remaining it makes no sense. And even if he was entering his walk year, you still need a replacement, and Fields is still iffy.

esbrechtel
11-29-2006, 12:09 PM
per MLB.com

http://mlb.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/news/article.jsp?ymd=20061128&content_id=1746990&vkey=hotstove2006&fext=.jsp

garcia and crede to angels for figgins and santana
crede gone :whiner:
figgins here :angry:
garcia gone :dunno:
santana here :dunno:
santana had a good season last year but i still feel he is unproven and i donno if i like him and bmac in the same rotation...

SBSoxFan
11-29-2006, 12:18 PM
I don't know Ol'....Crede did seriously nose dive in the second half last year. I really hope it was the back and not a regression back to the player he was before.

Honestly, I'd rather not find out and get a ton for him now. Even if we can't pick someone up like Ensberg, our best prospect is ready to fill in.

It seems Crede's stint on the DL last year for his broken finger got him well rested for September/October '05. He had no break last year, and nose dived at the end. There were concerns about his stamina before this as well as, IIRC, he would always loose too much weight during the season.

I don't think it's regression, I think it's being worn out. However, somewhat of a concern too.

kidmccarthy
11-29-2006, 12:18 PM
Santana had the 7th best whip in the league last year. Contreras was #10, Freddy was #11. So, he is probably better than Garcia for the longterm as he is super affordable, and probably wont let every runner on the roster run on him. I doubt we sign Garcia and Buerhle next year, possibly neither of em. Joe is a loss, but our division is young pitching rich and we need to stay competitive for 4-6 years rather than just next year. thats my thoughts.

esbrechtel
11-29-2006, 12:24 PM
the loss of crede would affect more than just the offense...his defense has bailed out our pitching, which relies heavily on groundball outs for a few years...

Hitmen77
11-29-2006, 12:27 PM
Why is there so much concern about re-signing Crede and how much he's going to get? He's not a FA for two more years. If they can't agree on a multi-year deal they'll almost certainly sign him to a one-year deal at around $6-7M.

If he was entering his walk year, I might agree with that, but with two relatively cheap years remaining it makes no sense. And even if he was entering his walk year, you still need a replacement, and Fields is still iffy.

I agree. I made this point yesterday, but 60 posts later, many people are still talking about the sky falling and us upgrading from Crede to Ensberg for '07.

Unless KW gets an offer for Crede now that "he can't refuse" - in other words, one that he really thinks will improve the Sox chances to return to the playoffs in '07 - he's not going to trade Crede now for salary/contract reasons. The Sox can still use Joe to make another playoff run in '07 and still trade him next offseason for alot in return.

That's why Crede will most likely be our 3B for 2007 and Josh Fields gets one more season in the minors. AFTER 2007, then KW will decide to either 1) work out an extension with Crede or 2) trade him in a deal that brings alot of talent to the Sox and plan to have Fields be our 3B on opening day 2008.

Whitesox029
11-29-2006, 12:40 PM
I agree. I made this point yesterday, but 60 posts later, many people are still talking about the sky falling and us upgrading from Crede to Ensberg for '07.

Unless KW gets an offer for Crede now that "he can't refuse" - in other words, one that he really thinks will improve the Sox chances to return to the playoffs in '07 - he's not going to trade Crede now for salary/contract reasons. The Sox can still use Joe to make another playoff run in '07 and still trade him next offseason for alot in return.

That's why Crede will most likely be our 3B for 2007 and Josh Fields gets one more season in the minors. AFTER 2007, then KW will decide to either 1) work out an extension with Crede or 2) trade him in a deal that brings alot of talent to the Sox and plan to have Fields be our 3B on opening day 2008.
What you say makes a lot of sense. However, I like aspects of the possible deal with the Angels. I think they should scale the deal down a bit though. We don't need Santana, and we don't need to trade Crede. I wonder if they would go for Garcia and one of our outfield prospects for Figgins and a quality reliever? (Donnelly?) The only thing is, all their quality relievers are right-handed.
Feel free to criticize this idea because I haven't really looked into the stats and salaries here...I would, but I have to go to class now.

assrevolution
11-29-2006, 12:53 PM
The Sox trading Crede would not only be a bad move for the team, but one for fan support as well. I don't know anyone on the team that's a bigger fan favorite than Joe Crede (besides Pauly maybe). Kenny didn't **** it up with Konerko, and I don't think he'd do the same with Joe.

The last time we got rid of a good 3rd baseman (Ventura) it took forever to replace him. It took me a while to stop cringing everytime a ball was hit to shortshop in the past few years because I was so used to Valentin over there. I've finally accepted that anything hit to the left side of the field will be played, and played well. I don't want that to change.

Hitmen77
11-29-2006, 01:15 PM
What you say makes a lot of sense. However, I like aspects of the possible deal with the Angels. I think they should scale the deal down a bit though. We don't need Santana, and we don't need to trade Crede. I wonder if they would go for Garcia and one of our outfield prospects for Figgins and a quality reliever? (Donnelly?) The only thing is, all their quality relievers are right-handed.
Feel free to criticize this idea because I haven't really looked into the stats and salaries here...I would, but I have to go to class now.

The thing about Kenny Williams, is that he's not afraid to make bold trades if he feels it will improve the team. He'll trade Crede if he thinks it'll make our team better - but at this point he won't trade him solely because of the free agency concern.

It'll be interesting to see if anything happens with the Angels. At any rate, I expect one big trade this winter.

WizardsofOzzie
11-29-2006, 01:32 PM
The Sox trading Crede would not only be a bad move for the team, but one for fan support as well. I don't know anyone on the team that's a bigger fan favorite than Joe Crede (besides Pauly maybe). Kenny didn't **** it up with Konerko, and I don't think he'd do the same with Joe.

The last time we got rid of a good 3rd baseman (Ventura) it took forever to replace him. It took me a while to stop cringing everytime a ball was hit to shortshop in the past few years because I was so used to Valentin over there. I've finally accepted that anything hit to the left side of the field will be played, and played well. I don't want that to change.
Don't forget about Snopeck too

mjmcend
11-29-2006, 01:41 PM
Stop with the Moneyball drivel already. Ensberg may be better at not making outs, but I just don't care. I care about my leadoff hitter's OBP, but for my #6 hitter, OBP is well down the list. He's there to drive in runs, and Crede is head and shoulders above Ensberg in that department.

Except hitting home runs.

SouthSide2Ship
11-29-2006, 01:41 PM
There has been lots of talk in the media about a possible deal with the sox and angels that includes Joe Crede. I think this would be terrible. I want to know other peoples thoughts and if a SAVE JOE CREDE petition needs to be created even though I trust Kenny Williams and his decisions reguarding doing whats best for the team. GO GO WHITE SOX

Lip Man 1
11-29-2006, 01:41 PM
From the Tribune Wednesday on this. (Analysis and so forth)

http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/cs-061128gonzales,1,6955180.story?coll=cs-home-headlines

http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/cs-061128rogers,1,2819471.column?coll=cs-whitesox-headlines

Lip

Domeshot17
11-29-2006, 01:42 PM
its like Aaron Rowand all over again, but hes not even gone.

Joe Crede is a good ball player but not worth 13-15 a year

chisoxmike
11-29-2006, 01:43 PM
Oh my God.

Ol' No. 2
11-29-2006, 01:46 PM
per MLB.com

http://mlb.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/news/article.jsp?ymd=20061128&content_id=1746990&vkey=hotstove2006&fext=.jsp

garcia and crede to angels for figgins and santana
crede gone :whiner:
figgins here :angry:
garcia gone :dunno:
santana here :dunno:
santana had a good season last year but i still feel he is unproven and i donno if i like him and Fingernails on a blackboard in the same rotation...Crede, who has two herniated discs in his lower back, is salary arbitration-eligible and could become a free agent at the end of the 2007 season.How much stock would you put in a writer who can't even get basic details right?

CHISOXFAN13
11-29-2006, 01:47 PM
What the hell are we saving him from?

Ol' No. 2
11-29-2006, 01:47 PM
Except hitting home runs.Have they changed the rules? Do RBI off home runs count different from other RBI?

Flight #24
11-29-2006, 01:50 PM
Have they changed the rules? Do RBI off home runs count different from other RBI?

Not really, but they did add in .2396 runs per BB and that the winner of each game will be determined by the estimated runs scored by the batting order submitted by the manager.....

Ol' No. 2
11-29-2006, 01:54 PM
Not really, but they did add in .2396 runs per BB and that the winner of each game will be determined by the estimated runs scored by the batting order submitted by the manager.....Since not making outs is so important, maybe they should change the rules to award the win to the team that makes the fewest outs?

:cleo I see a big home field advantage, a lot of long extra inning games, and lot of tie-breaker games at the end of the season.

Craig Grebeck
11-29-2006, 01:58 PM
If he was entering his walk year, I might agree with that, but with two relatively cheap years remaining it makes no sense. And even if he was entering his walk year, you still need a replacement, and Fields is still iffy.
Because his value has never been higher! How do you know he won't have an off season next year or get hurt? His value has never and will never be higher, there are adequate replacements around, and we need to cut payroll in order to make the team more well rounded and efficient financially. Crede is replacable, and if we get Santana there is no reason not to do it.

CLR01
11-29-2006, 01:58 PM
I'll sign a few times.

CLR01
11-29-2006, 01:58 PM
What the hell are we saving him from?

Aliens.

sox1970
11-29-2006, 02:01 PM
Dear lord. Crede isn't Babe Ruth, for chrissake. If he goes, he goes. The Sox will still have a good team, and somebody will be playing 3rd base. There won't be an empty hole next to the SS.

As Jerry Seinfeld put it--we root for laundry.

Ol' No. 2
11-29-2006, 02:08 PM
Because his value has never been higher! How do you know he won't have an off season next year or get hurt? His value has never and will never be higher, there are adequate replacements around, and we need to cut payroll in order to make the team more well rounded and efficient financially. Crede is replacable, and if we get Santana there is no reason not to do it.Rubbish. How do you know his value will never be higher? How do you know he won't have an even better season in 2007 and his value will go up? Also, there aren't adequate replacements (don't start with that Ensberg nonsense again) and Crede is still cheap, so trading him has minimal payroll impact. Oh yeah, and they're not going to get Santana. Other than that, I agree with everything you said.

Rocky Soprano
11-29-2006, 02:09 PM
Rubbish. How do you know his value will never be higher? How do you know he won't have an even better season in 2007 and his value will go up? Also, there aren't adequate replacements (don't start with that Ensberg nonsense again) and Crede is still cheap, so trading him has minimal payroll impact. Oh yeah, and they're not going to get Santana. Other than that, I agree with everything you said.

:gulp:

Norberto7
11-29-2006, 02:13 PM
Rubbish. How do you know his value will never be higher? How do you know he won't have an even better season in 2007 and his value will go up?

If he has an even better season in 2007 (with the Sox), his value may stay the same or decrease since he will then only be under contract for one year instead of two.

soxlover
11-29-2006, 02:23 PM
Can anyone that wants to keep him really say they want to shell out PK money with the problems Crede has had and still has with his back? NO way!!

esbrechtel
11-29-2006, 02:45 PM
Can anyone that wants to keep him really say they want to shell out PK money with the problems Crede has had and still has with his back? NO way!!

How much are we paying thome?:dunno: and all he does is hit.....crede plays defense too...

Ol' No. 2
11-29-2006, 02:46 PM
Can anyone that wants to keep him really say they want to shell out PK money with the problems Crede has had and still has with his back? NO way!!Crede is not getting anywhere close to PK money.

CLR01
11-29-2006, 02:51 PM
Crede is not getting anywhere close to PK money.

If this offseason is the new trend Crede will have no trouble at all getting close to PK money.

spiffie
11-29-2006, 02:51 PM
Crede is not getting anywhere close to PK money.
You really don't think that if in 2 more years, if Crede puts up 2 identical seasons of ball like he did last year that someone isn't going to step up and give him 5/60, in a market where Garry Matthews, a 32 yr old journeyman with one good season, is able to get 5/50, and with 2 more years of contract inflation to figure in?

soxlover
11-29-2006, 02:53 PM
Crede is not getting anywhere close to PK money.

Not yet but with this crazy FA market right now he will soon. NObody knows how his back will hold up, he had to be rested these past two years because of a sore back. I am saying that the White Sox should not sign him long term for the money he will command, knowing he is damaged goods.

Ol' No. 2
11-29-2006, 02:56 PM
You really don't think that if in 2 more years, if Crede puts up 2 identical seasons of ball like he did last year that someone isn't going to step up and give him 5/60, in a market where Garry Matthews, a 32 yr old journeyman with one good season, is able to get 5/50, and with 2 more years of contract inflation to figure in?He might, but I'm not going to trade away valuable players today because of what they might get two years from now. Pierzynski will be a FA at the same time. Should we trade him away because of what he might get in 2009? Iguchi is a FA after 2007. Better trade him now, too. And don't even get me started on what McCarthy might get when he becomes a FA.

soxlover
11-29-2006, 02:58 PM
How much are we paying thome?:dunno: and all he does is hit.....crede plays defense too...


Thome is the DH not the 3rd baseman. What is wrong with Thome's back? I have always heard that all he needs to do is exercise to keep his back healthy. I also believe that Thome is what 8 years older that Crede? I also belive that Thome is a better hitter than Crede. I say let Figgins play 3rd base in 07 and Fields in 08 as has already been stated.

Craig Grebeck
11-29-2006, 03:30 PM
He might, but I'm not going to trade away valuable players today because of what they might get two years from now. Pierzynski will be a FA at the same time. Should we trade him away because of what he might get in 2009? Iguchi is a FA after 2007. Better trade him now, too. And don't even get me started on what McCarthy might get when he becomes a FA.
No, because we don't have a pretty good prospect in AAA ready to take over by 2008 for either A.J. or Gooch. If trading Crede nets a good young SP and allows us to get a good SS, then why NOT get Ensberg? He has had a better OPS throughout his career, including a monster 2005. Even if it is a marginal downgrade in your eyes, the upgrade in other areas would be beneficial.

p.s. Always like debating with you ON2, you keep it classy :D:

Ol' No. 2
11-29-2006, 03:41 PM
No, because we don't have a pretty good prospect in AAA ready to take over by 2008 for either A.J. or Gooch. If trading Crede nets a good young SP and allows us to get a good SS, then why NOT get Ensberg? He has had a better OPS throughout his career, including a monster 2005. Even if it is a marginal downgrade in your eyes, the upgrade in other areas would be beneficial.

p.s. Always like debating with you ON2, you keep it classy :D:I have no problem trading Crede or anyone else if it makes the team better. I just think it's silly to trade him because you're afraid of what he's going to get paid in 2009. If he helps them win back-to-back WS Championships and then walks, I'll console myself somehow.:D:

And I see absolutely no point in getting Ensberg. He's not bad...he's just not particularly good. I'd rather get Figgins and give the 3B job to Fields with Figgins as the Plan B if Fields doesn't cut it. At least Fields has a big upside. Ensberg is, and always will be, a journeyman.

Corlose 15
11-29-2006, 03:46 PM
He might, but I'm not going to trade away valuable players today because of what they might get two years from now. Pierzynski will be a FA at the same time. Should we trade him away because of what he might get in 2009? Iguchi is a FA after 2007. Better trade him now, too. And don't even get me started on what McCarthy might get when he becomes a FA.


Exactly! I don't understand why this is such a hard concept for people to understand. Crede won't become a FA for 2 more years! He's not going to get "PK money" really until then. Trading someone for financial reasons two years before they're a problem is asinine.

spiffie
11-29-2006, 03:46 PM
He might, but I'm not going to trade away valuable players today because of what they might get two years from now. Pierzynski will be a FA at the same time. Should we trade him away because of what he might get in 2009? Iguchi is a FA after 2007. Better trade him now, too. And don't even get me started on what McCarthy might get when he becomes a FA.
This is a totally different point. You simply said there is no way that Crede would get PK money as a FA. Whether that means he should be traded now, later, or never is a totally different ball of wax.

Personally, I think that right now is when Crede's trade value is at its peak in terms of risk/reward. Yes, it might go higher at the trade deadline next year if he has a big 1st half. But that's about the only time it could peak. Right now a team looking at Crede is able to reasonably assume 2 years of All-Star level production at an affordable cost, while knowing the GM of the White Sox doesn't have any need to trade him at this time. After this offseason then it does become less likely to get full value as teams know that his walk year is looming. Does that mean they have to trade him? Of course not. But I doubt there will be a time where his perceived value is any higher than it is right now, so if we are going to think about trading him, now would be a good time to do it. Of course, I have no problem with the idea of Joe hopefully putting up another season like last year's in our uniform again. But if we can get younger and better and cheaper, I hope Kenny would listen.

That said...I'll pass on Ensberg. While I love the OBP, I worry about the steep decline from 2005 to 2006. If we're getting 2005 Ensberg, awesome, but something smells funny about him.

Corlose 15
11-29-2006, 03:50 PM
Thome is the DH not the 3rd baseman. What is wrong with Thome's back? I have always heard that all he needs to do is exercise to keep his back healthy. I also believe that Thome is what 8 years older that Crede? I also belive that Thome is a better hitter than Crede. I say let Figgins play 3rd base in 07 and Fields in 08 as has already been stated.


You know why Thome's back hasn't been much of a problem? He goes through an extensive workout routine and therapy that keeps it in shape.

Crede is kind of doing the same thing it isn't like he isn't dealing with his back problem. He is getting physical therapy, which HERM SCHNEIDER has said will accomplish the same thing as the surgery as long as he does the work.

People are making a mountain out of a molehill. Hell, I heard Joe's from Missouri, lets trade him to the Cardinals the ungrateful bastard.:rolleyes:

thomas35forever
11-29-2006, 03:56 PM
the loss of crede would affect more than just the offense...his defense has bailed out our pitching, which relies heavily on groundball outs for a few years...
My point exactly. I know Figgins is versatile, but Crede's in his prime right now. Why fix something that isn't broken? Since Joe's not as recognized as David Wright, do you suppose Kenny won't give him the extension so teams won't know as much about his clutch performances?

esbrechtel
11-29-2006, 04:14 PM
You know why Thome's back hasn't been much of a problem? He goes through an extensive workout routine and therapy that keeps it in shape.

Crede is kind of doing the same thing it isn't like he isn't dealing with his back problem. He is getting physical therapy, which HERM SCHNEIDER has said will accomplish the same thing as the surgery as long as he does the work.

this is exactly my point, we are paying thome a great deal of money and he has "back problems"....i have a difficult time calling crede "damaged goods"

Ol' No. 2
11-29-2006, 04:23 PM
This is a totally different point. You simply said there is no way that Crede would get PK money as a FA. Whether that means he should be traded now, later, or never is a totally different ball of wax.

Personally, I think that right now is when Crede's trade value is at its peak in terms of risk/reward. Yes, it might go higher at the trade deadline next year if he has a big 1st half. But that's about the only time it could peak. Right now a team looking at Crede is able to reasonably assume 2 years of All-Star level production at an affordable cost, while knowing the GM of the White Sox doesn't have any need to trade him at this time. After this offseason then it does become less likely to get full value as teams know that his walk year is looming. Does that mean they have to trade him? Of course not. But I doubt there will be a time where his perceived value is any higher than it is right now, so if we are going to think about trading him, now would be a good time to do it. Of course, I have no problem with the idea of Joe hopefully putting up another season like last year's in our uniform again. But if we can get younger and better and cheaper, I hope Kenny would listen.

That said...I'll pass on Ensberg. While I love the OBP, I worry about the steep decline from 2005 to 2006. If we're getting 2005 Ensberg, awesome, but something smells funny about him.WHEN he'll get big money is precisely the point. Why trade a player now because you're afraid of what he's going to be making in 2009? It makes no sense. The only way his trade value will go down over the next year is if his back gives out, but OTOH, if he plays all year without any back problems, his value could well go UP. I doubt there will be any shortage of teams wanting him and willing to sign him to a long-term deal. It's more than worth the risk for another year of having him on the team.

Again, if they can make a trade that makes the team better, bye-bye Joe. But rushing to trade him away because you're afraid of what he's going to make in 2009 is silly.

spiffie
11-29-2006, 05:33 PM
WHEN he'll get big money is precisely the point. Why trade a player now because you're afraid of what he's going to be making in 2009? It makes no sense. The only way his trade value will go down over the next year is if his back gives out, but OTOH, if he plays all year without any back problems, his value could well go UP. I doubt there will be any shortage of teams wanting him and willing to sign him to a long-term deal. It's more than worth the risk for another year of having him on the team.

Again, if they can make a trade that makes the team better, bye-bye Joe. But rushing to trade him away because you're afraid of what he's going to make in 2009 is silly.
It's not just about Crede though. The looming question is Fields. Do you trade a guy who has high trade value, who has free agency looming on the horizons, and who is blocking your #1 position prospect? If they had no one in the pipeline to replace Crede the story would be different. But if the organization expects Fields to be able to step in and perform at a pretty good level, then you have to think about dealing Crede.

And I have to disagree about the idea that after next season his value would be even higher. In the suddenly inflated marketplace that's out there, the value of two years of cheap production is gigantic. One year, while very good, is not nearly as much of a commodity. I'm not saying he would suddenly become like trying to trade Pablo Ozuna, but I don't believe he would fetch as much in Jan. 2008 as he might get right now, barring an absolute monster year (think 315/360/550) from him next year.

Ol' No. 2
11-29-2006, 05:41 PM
It's not just about Crede though. The looming question is Fields. Do you trade a guy who has high trade value, who has free agency looming on the horizons, and who is blocking your #1 position prospect? If they had no one in the pipeline to replace Crede the story would be different. But if the organization expects Fields to be able to step in and perform at a pretty good level, then you have to think about dealing Crede.

And I have to disagree about the idea that after next season his value would be even higher. In the suddenly inflated marketplace that's out there, the value of two years of cheap production is gigantic. One year, while very good, is not nearly as much of a commodity. I'm not saying he would suddenly become like trying to trade Pablo Ozuna, but I don't believe he would fetch as much in Jan. 2008 as he might get right now, barring an absolute monster year (think 315/360/550) from him next year.If Fields was ready, I'd be more inclined to agree, but I think he's looking at another year in AAA. I'd prefer to keep Crede another year and give Fields another year of seasoning in the minors.

And we're just going to have to agree to disagree on what Crede's value would be next year. Value is often driven by how many teams are bidding than by actual value, and there will be plenty of teams bidding next year. Plus, there are currently some questions about his back that would be allayed by another year of playing time.

Hitmen77
11-29-2006, 05:42 PM
What the hell are we saving him from?

This thread.

Hangar18
11-29-2006, 05:43 PM
This thread.


Im gonna really miss October Joe, if all this pans out and hes traded.

StatHead21
11-30-2006, 01:03 AM
Crede is going to get 12-14 mill a year, he's not worth it when you have Fields ready to play. They have to trade him.

TheVulture
11-30-2006, 02:27 AM
I The looming question is Fields. Do you trade a guy who has high trade value, who has free agency looming on the horizons, and who is blocking your #1 position prospect? If they had no one in the pipeline to replace Crede the story would be different.

Crede is going to get 12-14 mill a year, he's not worth it when you have Fields ready to play. They have to trade him


I'll say it again - Josh Fields at AA in 2006 : .252 BA 142 K

That doesn't translate to any MLB success for Fields in '07 in my book. He's not ready. I'm not even sure how he'll do at AAA in '07 based on those numbers.

KRS1
11-30-2006, 03:37 AM
I'll say it again - Josh Fields at AA in 2006 : .252 BA 142 K

That doesn't translate to any MLB success for Fields in '07 in my book. He's not ready. I'm not even sure how he'll do at AAA in '07 based on those numbers.


Ummmmmmmmmm.........

You do realize those were his 05' numbers you have there, and he succeeded while playing in Charlotte last year right? .305 BA .894 OPS 136 K's in 462 AB's.




Like others have said Fields needs more time to work on stuff in Charlotte.

Grzegorz
11-30-2006, 05:51 AM
Crede is going to get 12-14 mill a year, he's not worth it when you have Fields ready to play. They have to trade him.

He (Fields) is not ready to play... I don't care what his AA/AAA numbers were.

Last year promoting Brian Anderson to the starting lineup caused issues; some contrived by the manager, but none the less, Brian Anderson did not produce.

Why risk the same scenario based on the same logic as was applied last year? Has there been nothing learned from the events from last year?

I agree with Ol' No. 2; you deal a player because it helps the team on the field, you do not deal a player because of what his salary might be down the road.

I still believe in the talent of Brian Anderson; I hope this manager is fair enough to give him a shot in spring training.

Cuck_The_Fubs
11-30-2006, 07:38 AM
I'll say it again - Josh Fields at AA in 2006 : .252 BA 142 K

That doesn't translate to any MLB success for Fields in '07 in my book. He's not ready. I'm not even sure how he'll do at AAA in '07 based on those numbers.
I know that Fields isn't ready. But seriously, do you think KW is going to negotiate a monster deal with Bora$$? I doubt it. Besides, Crede has a horrible back, and you might as well get rid of him before he has no back.

Frater Perdurabo
11-30-2006, 08:13 AM
Besides, Crede has a horrible back, and you might as well get rid of him before he has no back.

Since you specialize in back problems, can you give me something to treat my scoliosis? Or do I need to call your office to set up an appointment?

:rolleyes:

Frontman
11-30-2006, 08:57 AM
Sounds like that Joe is staying put for now.

http://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/news/article.jsp?ymd=20061129&content_id=1747758&vkey=news_cws&fext=.jsp&c_id=cws

I don't think Joe is going anywhere this season. I also don't think KW will negotiate for a real high end deal for Joe, so it might be Crede's "swan song" with the Sox.

Front

GoSox2K3
11-30-2006, 09:03 AM
Because his value has never been higher! How do you know he won't have an off season next year or get hurt? His value has never and will never be higher, there are adequate replacements around, and we need to cut payroll in order to make the team more well rounded and efficient financially. Crede is replacable, and if we get Santana there is no reason not to do it.

:o:
I'm glad you're not in charge of the team. The Sox play in the 3rd largest market in America, drew 3 million last year, expect more big crowds next year, beat the Cubs in TV ratings.... and you think we need to cut payroll and trade someone who we have under contract for two more seasons???

Sounds like some fans are all ready to white flag the '07 season.

Frater Perdurabo
11-30-2006, 09:07 AM
Sounds like that Joe is staying put for now.

http://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/news/article.jsp?ymd=20061129&content_id=1747758&vkey=news_cws&fext=.jsp&c_id=cws

I don't think Joe is going anywhere this season. I also don't think KW will negotiate for a real high end deal for Joe, so it might be Crede's "swan song" with the Sox.

Front

Thanks for the link. I see no reason to deal Crede now. I was equally encouraged by this:

...Anderson reported Wednesday a decided upswing in his physical condition, after being treated for stomach bacteria that could have originally been a parasite.

"One million times better," said Anderson in describing how he currently felt, adding that his weight is back up to 215 pounds and he should be back at his normal weight of 220 pounds by the February start of Spring Training.

EndemicSox
11-30-2006, 10:54 AM
I love Crede, his defense is fun to watch, and he has some pop in his bat. Nevertheless, he is never going to get on base enough to deserve a huge contract, and if KW thinks that his asking price is going to be too high, well, bring on the Fields era.