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caulfield12
11-22-2006, 10:27 AM
Just saw it on ESPN's "Cold Pizza."

However, it wouldn't have been enough for him to win had Cowley put him at #2.

Maybe the "anti-Yankees" bias is seeping into the White Sox beat writers as well?

Fenway
11-22-2006, 10:37 AM
NY POST goes after Cowley

http://www.nypost.com/seven/11222006/sports/yankees/why_we_snubbed_jeter_for_award_yankees_george_king .htm

Here is the best part. The writer of the story George King in 1999 left Perdo Martinez off his MVP ballot costing Pedro the MVP. He said pitchers shouldn't be included in the MVP but the previous year had 2 Yankees pitchers on his ballot. :angry:
http://www.nypost.com/seven/11222006/img/front112206.jpg



One voter, a shameless Chicago shill named Joe Cowley, actually listed Jeter sixth and then spent yesterday double-talking his explanation to anyone who would listen.

Cowley, who covers the White Sox, took a beating yesterday across the country for voting Jeter sixth on a 10-man ballot.

"I look at two things unless the numbers are just so freaky," said Cowley. "One, the player has to play on a contending team, and two, is this the guy who single-handedly carried his team?
"I look at all the numbers and what I see first hand. Morneau is the heart of that team and had a lot of clutch hits. Take him out of the lineup and that team is in the middle of the pack.
"Derek Jeter had nice numbers, but you could plug another guy in that lineup and that guy would have close to his numbers."



In 2003, when he worked for the Daily Southtown, Cowley left Carlos Delgado and Vernon Wells off his ballot. Chicago chapter chairman Paul Sullivan suspended Cowley from voting the following year because he didn't think Cowley took the voting seriously and "embarrassed" the Chicago chapter. george.king@nypost.com (george.king@nypost.com)

Fenway
11-22-2006, 11:16 AM
Cowley being "interviewed" on WFAN's Mike and the Mad Dog

http://www.wfan.com/episode_download.php?contentType=36&contentId=173121

spawn
11-22-2006, 11:21 AM
This is hilarious. They act as if Jeter should've won the award unanimously! I guess no one else was deserving of the award.:rolleyes:

WizardsofOzzie
11-22-2006, 11:27 AM
Those poor yankees fans, and all they've had to endure :violin:

WizardsofOzzie
11-22-2006, 11:30 AM
This is hilarious. They act as if Jeter should've won the award unanimously! I guess no one else was deserving of the award.:rolleyes:
Well, nobody west of the NY, Ohio Border anyways! Afterall, Columbus (and by Columbus i mean ESPN) proved that the world ends if you go further west than that

chisoxmike
11-22-2006, 11:32 AM
NY POST goes after Cowley

http://www.nypost.com/seven/11222006/sports/yankees/why_we_snubbed_jeter_for_award_yankees_george_king .htm

Here is the best part. The writer of the story George King in 1999 left Perdo Martinez off his MVP ballot costing Pedro the MVP. He said pitchers shouldn't be included in the MVP but the previous year had 2 Yankees pitchers on his ballot. :angry:
http://www.nypost.com/seven/11222006/img/front112206.jpg


:rolling:

You made my day with this post Fenway.

One voter, a shameless Chicago shill named Joe Cowley, actually listed Jeter sixth and then spent yesterday double-talking his explanation to anyone who would listen.:rolling: :rolling:

downstairs
11-22-2006, 11:42 AM
Put Jeter in MIN and Morneau in NY, then lets see who diserves what.

I actually think Crowley gave Jeter too much credit as #6.

spiffie
11-22-2006, 11:42 AM
This has to be the most defending of Joe Cowley I've ever seen on this site.

Martinigirl
11-22-2006, 11:44 AM
The sense of entitlement that New Yorkers have is mindnumbing. Cowley is entitled to his opinion, even if all of NYC disagrees with it.

INSox56
11-22-2006, 11:50 AM
That is the single best thing I've read all week. COWLEY JUST GAINED A FEW POINTS IN MY BOOK!

SoxFan78
11-22-2006, 11:53 AM
Im listening to the interview, my god, these NY hosts are cracking me up. Believe me, if Jeter played anywhere else of PA, they wouldnt give two ****s.

thomas35forever
11-22-2006, 11:58 AM
NY POST goes after Cowley

http://www.nypost.com/seven/11222006/sports/yankees/why_we_snubbed_jeter_for_award_yankees_george_king .htm

Here is the best part. The writer of the story George King in 1999 left Perdo Martinez off his MVP ballot costing Pedro the MVP. He said pitchers shouldn't be included in the MVP but the previous year had 2 Yankees pitchers on his ballot. :angry:
http://www.nypost.com/seven/11222006/img/front112206.jpg
Wow, like this is the biggest bombshell to hit New York since 9/11.:rolleyes:

"Jeter Defeats Podsednik"

champagne030
11-22-2006, 12:00 PM
NY POST goes after Cowley

http://www.nypost.com/seven/11222006/sports/yankees/why_we_snubbed_jeter_for_award_yankees_george_king .htm



Quote:

In 2003, when he worked for the Daily Southtown, Cowley left Carlos Delgado and Vernon Wells off his ballot. Chicago chapter chairman Paul Sullivan suspended Cowley from voting the following year because he didn't think Cowley took the voting seriously and "embarrassed" the Chicago chapter. george.king@nypost.com (george.king@nypost.com)


Sullivan didn't suspend Cowley for not having Delgado and Wells on his ballot, it was because he didn't fill his ballot out with Flubs players.

Seriously, I cannot believe Sullivan is/was Chairman of anything other than the Vineline. Until this past season, he was nothing but a shill for all things Cubby.

INSox56
11-22-2006, 12:05 PM
what the hosts are saying is utterly stupid. They keep asking about what Jeter did in ONE GAME in ONE SERIES against boston. Hello, look at what Dye did in NUMEROUS games this year. you can't use the performance of GAME TWO AGAINST BOSTON on such and such a date. :rolleyes: I wish Cowley would have asked these guys how many Twins games they'd watched this year. How many As games did they watch this year. Where would the Sox have been at times without Dye CARRYING the team? Where would the horrible hitting As have been without Frank? Where would the Twins have been without any one of Morneau, Mauer, Santana? Can you compare those answers with Where would the Yanks have been without Jeter? I say no.

FedEx227
11-22-2006, 12:11 PM
Oh New York, how stupid you are.

chisoxmike
11-22-2006, 12:13 PM
All I hear from NY is a lot of this...:whiner: :whiner: :whiner: :whiner:

Seriously, don't they realize nobody else cares about them? Oh wait...

I want Mags back
11-22-2006, 12:14 PM
:D: good for him:D:

maurice
11-22-2006, 12:30 PM
They keep asking about what Jeter did in ONE GAME in ONE SERIES against boston.

C'mon, can't you yokels see that a series against a 3rd place team (5th in the WC) that finished 11 games below the Yankees is absolutely HUGE . . . the most important series of the year . . . more important than the playoff series against Detroit. I mean, if Jeter didn't rock in that series, Boston might have finished in 2ND PLACE (4th in the WC) and only 9 GAMES out. That would be a disaster!

areilly
11-22-2006, 12:31 PM
I couldn't even make it 2/3 of the way through that WFAN interview. Absolutely disgusting stuff.

Fenway
11-22-2006, 12:32 PM
C'mon, can't you yokels see that a series against a 3rd place team (5th in the WC) that finished 11 games below the Yankees is absolutely HUGE . . . the most important series of the year . . . more important than the playoff series against Detroit. I mean, if Jeter didn't rock in that series, Boston might have finished in 2ND PLACE (4th in the WC) and only 9 GAMES out. That would be a disaster!


Maybe the Red Sox and Yankees should play 162 games with each other and let the rest of the country ignore us :tongue:

maurice
11-22-2006, 12:35 PM
Seriously, don't they realize nobody else cares about them?

Nope. NY and Boston are the 2 most narcissistic places in the country (sorry, Fenway). They get excited when some rube aspires to be one of them, but they become extremely offended when they learn that most other people hardly ever think about them. They manufacture opportunities to insert their hometowns into every conversation possible, even when it's not even tangentially related to the topic at hand. This comes through loud and clear on ESPN.

churlish
11-22-2006, 12:45 PM
This just tears me up inside. I mean, how am I suppose to be thankful, when a human being has the nerve to vote Derek Jeter 6TH??? The beautiful weather outside just doesn't seem very beautiful knowing that these kind of atrocities exist in the world. This is a sad day, indeed.

PKalltheway
11-22-2006, 12:47 PM
Good job Cowley! Way to stick it to those New York bastards!:D:

Fenway
11-22-2006, 12:53 PM
Nope. NY and Boston are the 2 most narcissistic places in the country (sorry, Fenway). They get excited when some rube aspires to be one of them, but they become extremely offended when they learn that most other people hardly ever think about them. They manufacture opportunities to insert their hometowns into every conversation possible, even when it's not even tangentially related to the topic at hand. This comes through loud and clear on ESPN.

ESPN I agree has helped fuled the monster that NYY/Boston has become. Bristol being exactly 100 miles from both cities hears both cities screaming and then transmits it to the rest of the country. I honestly get numb in the summer with WFAN and WEEI going at each other, the Post, Daily News and the Herald and Globe creating hype.

One thing the fans of the Red Sox and Yankees refuse to admit is the balance of power in the AL has shifted to the Central Division.

thedudeabides
11-22-2006, 01:43 PM
There were 5 writers who left Joe Mauer completely off their ballot. I think he was as deserving as Jeter. Who's screaming for this injustice?

SoxFan78
11-22-2006, 02:11 PM
Joe Cowley will be on the Dan Patrick radio show this hour, and Keith Olberman is expected to grill him like Mike and the Mad Dog.

Fenway
11-22-2006, 02:14 PM
according to a post on nyyfans.com Cowley has lost his voting status again because of the Jeter vote

http://forums.nyyfans.com/showpost.php?p=3753105&postcount=581

http://bigblueinteractive.com/petescorner2/forum_display.cfm?F1_ID=210006

According to another site I frequent, Joe Cowley's MVP vote has been suspended. And guess what? It's not the first time it's happend to him.

Here's the thread if you want to read it. It's from Big Blue Interactive. It was mentioned on Joe Beningo's radio show:

oeo
11-22-2006, 02:18 PM
Jeter bats in front of an All Star lineup, of course his numbers are going to be inflated. Hell, if Juan Uribe batted in the Yankee lineup, his OBP would be much better than .257.

Like someone already said, put Jeter in Minnesota's lineup, and he doesn't even sniff those numbers.

Add to that, he plays average defense, and no MVP for Jeter.

BTW, does anyone whine more than the New York media?

Oblong
11-22-2006, 02:18 PM
That's ridiculous. I see that Crowley also left off Mauer. Will they suspend the writers who also left off Mauer?

If he's suspended for dropping Jeter to sixth, then scrap the whole system.

Jaffar
11-22-2006, 02:29 PM
Cowley is going toe to toe with Dan Patrick and Keith Olberman. It pathetic how east coast biased they sound. I enjoy hearing Cowley mention over and over again how the AL central is the best division in baseball.

ewokpelts
11-22-2006, 02:34 PM
Cowley is going toe to toe with Dan Patrick and Keith Olberman. It pathetic how east coast biased they sound. I enjoy hearing Cowley mention over and over again how the AL central is the best division in baseball.and he's throwing insults the sox pitching staff's way....

SoxFan78
11-22-2006, 02:38 PM
How about MLB just makes some rule changes for MVP voting.

Two or more members of the New York Yankees must be in the top 10, preferably in the top 5.

No matter the stats, Derek Jeter must be in the top 4 of every ballot.

Any deviations from these rules and your voting privileges will be suspended for one (1) year.

Jaffar
11-22-2006, 02:40 PM
Yeah, I didn't get to hear the whole thing, had to take a call so I don't think I caught that part. Did they really say what the Yankees did in the east is similar to what the Twins did in the central?

Iwritecode
11-22-2006, 02:41 PM
Maybe the Red Sox and Yankees should play 162 games with each other and let the rest of the country ignore us :tongue:

SHH!!! Don't give them any ideas!

That's ridiculous. I see that Crowley also left off Mauer. Will they suspend the writers who also left off Mauer?

If he's suspended for dropping Jeter to sixth, then scrap the whole system.

I'm amazed somebody can be suspended for having the wrong OPINION! :o:

the gooch
11-22-2006, 02:46 PM
Patrick: "I think you had to look for somebody like Morneau. You didn't have to look for Jeter."
Morneau got 15 1st place votes! More than Jeter! How many smell hounds were required to cross the Mississippi River?

Patrick: "How could you not put Mauer in your top 10?"
He put two Twins in his top 3!

Cowley did a good job of responding that he doesn't vote for a name. It sure sounds like he puts a lot of time into his consideration. His vote for AJ in #10 hurts his case, though.

The other guy on the radio show was saying this is "sad" and "pathetic" and said that Cowley should have to pay for his tickets to get into the ballpark.

Fenway
11-22-2006, 02:48 PM
NEWSDAY has ballots of all the writers posted
http://www.newsday.com/sports/baseball/yankees/ny-spvotes1122,0,2346956.htmlstory?coll=ny-main-bigpix

SouthSide_HitMen
11-22-2006, 02:54 PM
according to a post on nyyfans.com Cowley has lost his voting status again because of the Jeter vote

http://forums.nyyfans.com/showpost.php?p=3753105&postcount=581

http://bigblueinteractive.com/petescorner2/forum_display.cfm?F1_ID=210006

According to another site I frequent, Joe Cowley's MVP vote has been suspended. And guess what? It's not the first time it's happend to him.

Here's the thread if you want to read it. It's from Big Blue Interactive. It was mentioned on Joe Beningo's radio show:


I'd rather they suspend him from covering the White Sox. I could care less how he votes for MVP. Morneau definitely should not have won. Jeter has a better case. I would have voted Frank Thomas and Johan Santana 1-2 in the AL and Pujols & Howard 1-2 in the NL.

DumpJerry
11-22-2006, 03:00 PM
That King guy at the Post is an obvious fool. He said Cowley covered the White Sox like that skewered him against Jeter. Has King ever read Cowley's coverage of the Sox and compare it with reality? Is he implying that only reporters who cover the Yankees should be allowed to vote because only Yankee beat writers know what to do?

Why haven't Jeter's people and/or the Yankees told the New York media to **** before Jeter becomes more unpopular on the road than Giambi?

Finally, suspending writers for voting "incorrectly" will greatly increase the credibility of the awards selected by the Baseball Writers.

kobo
11-22-2006, 03:12 PM
I would have voted Frank Thomas and Johan Santana 1-2 in the AL
:?: Seriously?

spawn
11-22-2006, 03:13 PM
If Cowley got his voting rights revoked because of this year's vote, then the whole thing is a sham. I mean, really. *****.

the gooch
11-22-2006, 03:25 PM
NEWSDAY has ballots of all the writers posted
http://www.newsday.com/sports/baseball/yankees/ny-spvotes1122,0,2346956.htmlstory?coll=ny-main-bigpix
I don't get the big deal about this.
Frank Thomas was left off people's ballots and as high as #2.
Mauer was left off ballots and as high as #3.
Santana was left off ballots and as high as #1.

The entire Yankee infield got MVP votes: ARod, Giambi, CANO. This goes along with votes for Wang, Damon, and Rivera. (So how exactly did Jeter carry the team by himself?)

Texas voted for Gary Matthews Jr. and Michael Young.

chisoxmike
11-22-2006, 03:26 PM
NEWSDAY has ballots of all the writers posted
http://www.newsday.com/sports/baseball/yankees/ny-spvotes1122,0,2346956.htmlstory?coll=ny-main-bigpix

CLEVELAND

Jim Ingraham, News Herald
1. Jeter
2. Hafner
3. Ortiz
4. Morneau
5. Sizemore
6. Thomas
7. Mauer
8. Dye
9. Guillen
10. Nathan

Wow. :rolling:

spawn
11-22-2006, 03:33 PM
Jim Ingraham, News Herald
1. Jeter
2. Hafner
3. Ortiz
4. Morneau
5. Sizemore
6. Thomas
7. Mauer
8. Dye
9. Guillen
10. Nathan


Why isn't Ingram being blasted for placing Dye 8th? And Hafner 2nd? Oh, that's right...because he has Jeter at #1.:rolleyes:

oeo
11-22-2006, 03:35 PM
I see Cowley also gave AJ his vote. :redneck

RKMeibalane
11-22-2006, 03:57 PM
I never thought I'd be defending Cowley over anything, but this is ridiculous. Morneau was probably the best offensive player in the American League for more than four months, and was a big reason why the Twins- whom everyone left for dead after their slow start- managed to not only get back into the race, but win the division- baseball's toughest division at that.

New York (and Boston, as well) needs to ****. If Jeter were playing in Kansas City right now, nobody would care about him. Frankly, I'm surprised the NY media isn't crying about Ryan Howard winning in the National League, with Beltran finishing with fewer votes than Lance Berkman. The arrogance of that city is appauling, and it gets worse with each passing year. Where the Big Apple leads, all must follow.

*****.

fquaye149
11-22-2006, 06:12 PM
:?: Seriously?

That's a damned good pick if you gauge MVP on how vital their performance was to their (playoff) team's success.

No one was more important to his team than Frank was to the A's and Santana was to the Twins.

But most people don't vote that way, so whatever.

fquaye149
11-22-2006, 06:13 PM
Wow. :rolling:

Hafner has by far the best #'s in the AL. It's not really his fault the Indians weren't good.

You can argue just about anyone for MVP in the AL....there really is no bad pick...which is why this Cowley crucifixion going on is ridiculous.

Jjav829
11-22-2006, 06:27 PM
Hahaha, what bull****. **** NY and all those morons who are getting all self-righteous because they voted for Jeter #1 and someone else had the nerve to vote him lower. It's a vote, *******s. Look up the word if you don't understand it. It's an expression of opinion about a given topic. Note the word "opinion." That means there is no right or wrong vote. If they revoke Cowley's vote because of this, then screw the whole system. They might as well just ask the ********s in New York who they feel should be the MVP each year. Then we can have Yankees as the MVP each year. Won't that be fun. :rolleyes:

FWIW, I disagree with Cowley putting Jeter 6th. While I don't think Jeter should have won, I would certainly say he was in the top 3 or 4 of MVP worthy candidates. But that's Cowley's opinion. I also feel Morneau should have won.

SouthSide_HitMen
11-22-2006, 06:43 PM
That's a damned good pick if you gauge MVP on how vital their performance was to their (playoff) team's success.

No one was more important to his team than Frank was to the A's and Santana was to the Twins.

But most people don't vote that way, so whatever.

That was the basis for my one / two votes in each league. I didn't study all the candidates to go beyond those two. I think Jeter is more deserving than Morneau.

You pull Frank or Santana off of those teams and they would be hovering around .500 and neither would have won their division IMO.

Traditional college bowls, LT vs. Brown, Payton, Sayers and now MVP. Glad to see you are coming around. :D:

Frank Thomas - 137 G, .381 OBP, .545 SLG, 39 HR, 114 RBI, 77 R
Derek Jeter - 154 G, .417 OBP, .473 SLG, 14 HR, 97 RBI, 118 R

The Yankees scored 159 more runs than Oakland. Frank Thomas knocked in / scored 24.77% of Oaklan'd runs vs. Jeter's 23.1%

I agree the race was wide open (vs. the NL which really had two credible top choices IMO).

Man Soo Lee
11-22-2006, 06:49 PM
I probably would have had Jeter higher than 6th, but I think that's defensible.

Is there any credible explanation for the A.J. vote? He was closer to the 10th most valuable on the Sox than he was 10th in the American League last year.

fquaye149
11-22-2006, 06:56 PM
That was the basis for my one / two votes in each league. I didn't study all the candidates to go beyond those two. I think Jeter is more deserving than Morneau.

You pull Frank or Santana off of those teams and they would be hovering around .500 and neither would have won their division IMO.

Traditional college bowls, LT vs. Brown, Payton, Sayers and now MVP. Glad to see you are coming around. :D:

Frank Thomas - 137 G, .381 OBP, .545 SLG, 39 HR, 114 RBI, 77 R
Derek Jeter - 154 G, .417 OBP, .473 SLG, 14 HR, 97 RBI, 118 R

The Yankees scored 159 more runs than Oakland. Frank Thomas knocked in / scored 24.77% of Oaklan'd runs vs. Jeter's 23.1%

I agree the race was wide open (vs. the NL which really had two credible top choices IMO).

I was always "around"---you're just fortunate sometimes and your view coincides with mine:cool:

fquaye149
11-22-2006, 06:57 PM
I probably would have had Jeter higher than 6th, but I think that's defensible.

Is there any credible explanation for the A.J. vote? He was closer to the 10th most valuable on the Sox than he was 10th in the American League last year.

The vaunted "intangibles" probably.

Plus in the AL there weren't many good catchers...so like Jeter at SS, AJ's #'s look inflated as a catcher.

However, it's very hard to defend having AJ above Mauer...who is better in almost every single way.

caulfield12
11-22-2006, 07:02 PM
While we're at it, we might as well put Oklahoma in the National Championship Game...if OU didn't turn the ball over four times against Texas, this is all you'd be hearing about for the next month.

SouthSide_HitMen
11-22-2006, 07:30 PM
I was always "around"---you're just fortunate sometimes and your view coincides with mine:cool:

Three hyphens (http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=1377696&postcount=43) - two more than I usually use. :cool:

While we're at it, we might as well put Oklahoma in the National Championship Game...if OU didn't turn the ball over four times against Texas, this is all you'd be hearing about for the next month.

They would be a unanimous choice to play Ohio State if they weren't screwed TWICE (http://www.sportsline.com/columns/story/9671006) by Pac 10 officials (and, of course, did not turn the ball over four times vs. Texas and won the game).

fquaye149
11-22-2006, 07:44 PM
Three hyphens (http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=1377696&postcount=43) - two more than I usually use. :cool:



They would be a unanimous choice to play Ohio State if they weren't screwed TWICE (http://www.sportsline.com/columns/story/9671006) by Pac 10 officials (and, of course, did not turn the ball over four times vs. Texas and won the game).

that's a dash, doofus, not a hyphen.

Hyphens connect words. Dashes function as an appositive pause-break.

nb: DASH: Southside Hitman---a poor grammarian---has been known to post on a message board

HYPHEN: Southside Hitmen thinks the NFL is full of sketch-jobs

SouthSide_HitMen
11-22-2006, 08:17 PM
that's a dash, doofus, not a hyphen.

Hyphens connect words. Dashes function as an appositive pause-break.

nb: DASH: Southside Hitman---a poor grammarian---has been known to post on a message board

HYPHEN: Southside Hitmen thinks the NFL is full of sketch-jobs

The keyboard has one symbol - and my - indicates a dash irregardless of your drunken ND tirades which we can surely count on happening after Saturday evening. :cool:

PS - Is the Arkansas vs. LSU game always played in Little Rock when Arkansas hosts the game? Is the stadium bigger?

fquaye149
11-22-2006, 08:37 PM
The keyboard has one symbol - and my - indicates a dash irregardless of your drunken ND tirades which we can surely count on happening after Saturday evening. :cool:

PS - Is the Arkansas vs. LSU game always played in Little Rock when Arkansas hosts the game? Is the stadium bigger?

Ignorance is no excuse.

And to answer your other question---I don't know. I'll ask around when I get back in the south

caulfield12
11-22-2006, 08:40 PM
I think it's typical of the southern schools that are located in smaller cities (Alabama, Auburn, Arkansas) to play at least one "big game" per year off their campus so fans from throughout the state can more easily attend. I know Bama plays at once in Birmingham...the NW corner of Arkansas is pretty far removed from the rest of the state, so it's more a matter of convenience and attendance.

fquaye149
11-23-2006, 12:55 PM
I think it's typical of the southern schools that are located in smaller cities (Alabama, Auburn, Arkansas) to play at least one "big game" per year off their campus so fans from throughout the state can more easily attend. I know Bama plays at once in Birmingham...the NW corner of Arkansas is pretty far removed from the rest of the state, so it's more a matter of convenience and attendance.

The 'Backs already played a game at LR---UL Monroe three weeks ago or so. I'm almost positive they play 2 LR games a year...I'm just not sure whether the LSU game is always there.

[/hijack]

23Ventura
11-24-2006, 12:49 PM
I'm amazed somebody can be suspended for having the wrong OPINION! :o:
It's even more amazing somebody can be suspended for having the right opinion. Jeter didn't deserve the award. The five guys that Cowley voted ahead of Jeter (Morneau, Dye, Thomas, Santana, Ortiz) were all more deserving. If Jeter played anywhere other than New York, this wouldn't be an issue.

fquaye149
11-24-2006, 01:17 PM
It's even more amazing somebody can be suspended for having the right opinion. Jeter didn't deserve the award. The five guys that Cowley voted ahead of Jeter (Morneau, Dye, Thomas, Santana, Ortiz) were all more deserving. If Jeter played anywhere other than New York, this wouldn't be an issue.

My understanding is that Jeter's VORP (value over replacement) is better than everyone but Hafner.

This may sound like statistic mumbo jumbo...but it's not really---all told, given the #'s Jeter put up, and how much better they are than everyone else who played SS in the AL, Jeter is probably the least dispensable (besides Santana, of course...but he only pitches every fifth day).

That's not to say that anyone who picked Jeter is WRONG (of course they're not...Morneau, Dye, Thomas, Santana, and Ortiz all put up BETTER #'s than Jeter and were all more important to their team) but given the fact that Jeter plays SS and still put up the #'s he did is pretty respectable...surely those who voted FOR Jeter aren't WRONG---just of a different opinion what MVP means.

23Ventura
11-24-2006, 01:30 PM
My understanding is that Jeter's VORP (value over replacement) is better than everyone but Hafner.

This may sound like statistic mumbo jumbo...but it's not really---all told, given the #'s Jeter put up, and how much better they are than everyone else who played SS in the AL, Jeter is probably the least dispensable (besides Santana, of course...but he only pitches every fifth day).

That's not to say that anyone who picked Jeter is WRONG (of course they're not...Morneau, Dye, Thomas, Santana, and Ortiz all put up BETTER #'s than Jeter and were all more important to their team) but given the fact that Jeter plays SS and still put up the #'s he did is pretty respectable...surely those who voted FOR Jeter aren't WRONG---just of a different opinion what MVP means.
I see what you're saying, but it's absolutely a joke that he can be suspended from voting because he put Jeter 6th. His ballot seemed perfectly reasonable, and it's not like he put Jeter behind five guys that didn't deserve it. And I really believe that if Jeter didn't play in NY, he wouldn't have had a chance at the MVP.

fquaye149
11-24-2006, 01:58 PM
I see what you're saying, but it's absolutely a joke that he can be suspended from voting because he put Jeter 6th. His ballot seemed perfectly reasonable, and it's not like he put Jeter behind five guys that didn't deserve it. And I really believe that if Jeter didn't play in NY, he wouldn't have had a chance at the MVP.
I agree with everything you say here. Right on.:smile:

MDF3530
11-24-2006, 06:23 PM
Cowley being "interviewed" on WFAN's Mike and the Mad Dog

http://www.wfan.com/episode_download.php?contentType=36&contentId=173121

The East Coast hacks are PO'd that Cowley didn't vote for Derek Jeter because he's Derek Jeter.

TDog
11-24-2006, 09:40 PM
I might not have voted Jeter in the top five either.

It isn't like Cowley left Jeter off the ballot.

jabrch
11-25-2006, 01:38 AM
I never thought I'd be defending Cowley over anything

I still wont - regardless of if he is right or wrong. He's human fecal matter.

Brian26
11-25-2006, 11:53 AM
Quite honestly, Cowley loses more credibility in my book for putting AJ on the ballot at #10 than where he ranked Jeter. I can justify putting Jeter at #6 based on who is in front of him, but there's no way AJ should be in the top 10.

Joe Cowley, Chicago Sun Times
1. Morneau
2. Dye
3. Santana
4. Thomas
5. Ortiz
6. Jeter
7. Guerrero
8. A. Rodriguez
9. Hafner
10. Pierzynski

Brian26
11-25-2006, 11:57 AM
That's not to say that anyone who picked Jeter is WRONG (of course they're not...Morneau, Dye, Thomas, Santana, and Ortiz all put up BETTER #'s than Jeter and were all more important to their team) but given the fact that Jeter plays SS and still put up the #'s he did is pretty respectable...

I don't agree with that. This isn't the Silver Slugger Award. A player's position on the field should have no bearing on MVP voting (With the exception of guys who are exclusively DH's, who usually have to put up remarkable numbers to get consideration). I don't think shortstops or catchers should get special consideration.

fquaye149
11-25-2006, 11:59 AM
I don't agree with that. This isn't the Silver Slugger Award. A player's position on the field should have no bearing on MVP voting (With the exception of guys who are exclusively DH's, who usually have to put up remarkable numbers to get consideration). I don't think shortstops or catchers should get special consideration.


Well that's fine, but history would tend to disagree with you on this one.

Brian26
11-25-2006, 12:21 PM
Well that's fine, but history would tend to disagree with you on this one.

Times change. Shortstop used to be a slap-hitting position with guys who batted 8th or 9th. Now look at some of the shortstops in the AL: Tejada, Michael Young, Jeter, A-Rod (before he went to NYY), Carlos Guillen, Cabrera, and even Jose Valentin hit 25 hrs twice with the Sox.

fquaye149
11-25-2006, 12:39 PM
Times change. Shortstop used to be a slap-hitting position with guys who batted 8th or 9th. Now look at some of the shortstops in the AL: Tejada, Michael Young, Jeter, A-Rod (before he went to NYY), Carlos Guillen, Cabrera, and even Jose Valentin hit 25 hrs twice with the Sox.

But A-Rod's not a power hitter

He's a hitter that put up excellent numbers across the board at a position where it would be impossible for the Yankees to find comparable production, especially since Jeter plays no worse than average defense (and some people would make the argument that he plays better than average defense. Not me of course. I think he's a mediocre SS)

On the other hand, Morneau, Hafner, Thome, and Konerko are more or less interchangeable.

Dye's a better sell, since he plays a very good defense in a position where defense is harder to find. Mauer too.

And of course, Santana is a great case to make since it's nearly impossible to find another pitcher who's even close to as dominating.

I would have voted Dye, Mauer, or Santana. But I can understand why people voted for Jeter.

Fenway
11-25-2006, 02:25 PM
One of the Red Sox message boards posted some writers and other hanger-ons reactions to the voting

http://www.redsoxnation.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=23405

BILL JAMES (sabermetrician and historian):

I don't see that it is wholly unreasonable. I would have voted for Travis Hafner first, David Ortiz second. I don't see that a vote for Morneau is unreasonable.

cbotnyse
11-25-2006, 02:39 PM
wait, I am just skimming some of these posts, but did the Sun Times writer really get banned for voting Jeter 6th????? :o: :o: :o:

NonetheLoaiza
11-25-2006, 03:39 PM
Voting for AJ in the 10th spot is not a big deal. It's like Kenny Williams drafting his son in the late rounds of the baseball draft. Everyone does it.

MDF3530
11-25-2006, 03:54 PM
Here's the thread on another Red Sox message board:

http://www.talksox.com/forum/showthread.php?t=7738

maurice
11-27-2006, 06:06 PM
Voting Jeter #6 is not less reasonable than voting him #1, IMO. You can make a very strong argument that 5 guys were more deserving than Jeter. The 5 guys Cowley named all are good selections.