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View Full Version : 'Nasty' Bullpen: Who's in?


Cuck_The_Fubs
11-20-2006, 05:52 PM
Since there is all this talk about having a nasty bullpen, and getting the best arms in the league,well, maybe we have what we need already. With Javy getting pummeled in the 5th-6th inning, why not move him? He has a Cy young arm before the 5th-6th, i just dont get it.

Bullpen Arms:
-Dave Aardsma
-Matt Thornton
-Bobby Jenks
-Mike MacDougal
-Charlie Haeger*
-Javier Vazques
-McCarthy*

Starting Position:
-McCarthy*
-Garland
-Contreras
-Buerhle
-Garcia
-Charlie Haeger*

*Symbolizes a 2 man rotation every other week, or reversed from bullpen to Starting position.

Garcia is used as an example to demonstrate an 1 of these pitchers being traded, nonetheless himself.

Ideas/Suggestions to fellow Armchair GM's?

MUsoxfan
11-20-2006, 05:54 PM
Two things....

1) It's a really bad idea to bring in a knuckler in the middle of a game. It totally throws off the catcher

2) Vazquez is paid entirely too much money and too valuable a piece of trade-bait to keep in the bullpen.

JermaineDye05
11-20-2006, 05:59 PM
its too early to say our bullpen is set, we don't know what we'll get from Aardsma, and we don't know if Thornton will be the same, and we don't know if MacDougal will be healthy

caulfield12
11-20-2006, 06:00 PM
You can't pay Vazquez $9.5 million to be a middle reliever.

We weren't willing to pay El Duque about half that to do the same thing.

And neither of them would be (would have been) happy in that position...so you have morale and clubhouse turmoil as well. Vazquez is fragile enough as it is.

Cuck_The_Fubs
11-20-2006, 06:00 PM
Two things....

1) It's a really bad idea to bring in a knuckler in the middle of a game. It totally throws off the catcher

2) Vazquez is paid entirely too much money and too valuable a piece of trade-bait to keep in the bullpen.

2 things:
1. Hell, i dont care how valuable he is. If he has a great arm in the bullpen, im in.
2. Haeger denotes either a bullpen arm, or a starter. And yes, i agree with u that it does throw off a catcher. He could prove himself to be either of these pos's

caulfield12
11-20-2006, 06:01 PM
its too early to say our bullpen is set, we don't know what we'll get from Aardsma, and we don't know if Thornton will be the same, and we don't know if MacDougal will be healthy


KW has to get another reliever....from FA's (doubt it) but most likely from trading one of the starters. Patience.

johnr1note
11-20-2006, 06:15 PM
2 things:
1. Hell, i dont care how valuable he is. If he has a great arm in the bullpen, im in.
2. Haeger denotes either a bullpen arm, or a starter. And yes, i agree with u that it does throw off a catcher. He could prove himself to be either of these pos's

2 more things:

1. Vazquez showed improvement as the year went on -- I am not sold on giving up on him as a reliable starting pitcher.

2. The history of our own team shows that a knuckleballer can be effective out of the bullpen -- Hoyt Wilhelm anyone?

oeo
11-20-2006, 06:16 PM
The offseason isn't over, and I'll bet that the current bullpen will not be the same by opening day. How about we wait and see what happens? It's only November, there's still a lot of time to make changes, and changes will be made.

Cuck_The_Fubs
11-20-2006, 06:18 PM
2 more things:

1. Vazquez showed improvement as the year went on -- I am not sold on giving up on him as a reliable starting pitcher.

2. The history of our own team shows that a knuckleballer can be effective out of the bullpen -- Hoyt Wilhelm anyone?

Agreed

MUsoxfan
11-20-2006, 06:31 PM
2. The history of our own team shows that a knuckleballer can be effective out of the bullpen -- Hoyt Wilhelm anyone?

Different time, different team. Did you see how ****ed up AJ was behind the plate on the days he KNEW Haeger would be pitching and was totally prepared to handle a knuckler that day? To throw that out at him at random a couple times a week has disaster written all over it

oeo
11-20-2006, 06:35 PM
Different time, different team. Did you see how ****ed up AJ was behind the plate on the days he KNEW Haeger would be pitching and was totally prepared to handle a knuckler that day? To throw that out at him at random a couple times a week has disaster written all over it

He just needs experience with catching it. He's a major league catcher, I'd imagine, with time, he would learn the tendencies and not look so bad. The only way Haeger comes out of the bullpen is if AJ learns how to catch the knuckler regularly. Which will take some time and dedication in the spring, but what has to be done, has to be done.

MUsoxfan
11-20-2006, 06:39 PM
He just needs experience with catching it. He's a major league catcher, I'd imagine, with time, he would learn the tendencies and not look so bad. The only way Haeger comes out of the bullpen is if AJ learns how to catch the knuckler regularly.


I'm not sure about that. Jason Varitek is an All-Star catcher that can't catch a knuckler. He's so bad that the Sawx kept throwing out a catcher that did nothing but let balls go by him by the dozen for a month. The Sawx jumped through flaming hoops to get back Mirabelli who has a career because of Wakefield.

Knuckleballers aren't something you see everyday. Most catchers have never caught one.

Huisj
11-20-2006, 06:57 PM
He just needs experience with catching it. He's a major league catcher, I'd imagine, with time, he would learn the tendencies and not look so bad. The only way Haeger comes out of the bullpen is if AJ learns how to catch the knuckler regularly. Which will take some time and dedication in the spring, but what has to be done, has to be done.

Better yet, we could make a middle of the day trade to get Doug Mirabelli, and then ESPN could go gaga for the next two months showing highlights of him changing his clothes in a taxi and running into the park moments before entering the game . . . oh wait, you mean the only reason they made such a big deal out of that was because it happened in Boston? my bad. nevermind.

rowand33
11-20-2006, 07:10 PM
IMO, there shouldn't be tihs many people that throw 100 in the same bullpen...

major league hitters have a much better chance of hitting a fastball in the high 90s if this see one 3 straight innings...

I'm kinda hoping we don't see Aardsma before September.

Domeshot17
11-20-2006, 07:25 PM
agreed on the too many guys throwing straight heat arguement. Aardsma, I really wasnt happy with that deal to be honest. Maybe Coop can fix him, but he is a major project. I would take heager over him anyday. Heager proved in his short stint he belongs here. Now its up to AJ to earn his pay check and work with him and learn how to catch a knuckleball. If not, bringing Chris Stewart in late in games wouldnt be a bad idea. He can catch the knuckleball and would be a defensive upgrade over AJ.

caulfield12
11-20-2006, 08:05 PM
agreed on the too many guys throwing straight heat arguement. Aardsma, I really wasnt happy with that deal to be honest. Maybe Coop can fix him, but he is a major project. I would take heager over him anyday. Heager proved in his short stint he belongs here. Now its up to AJ to earn his pay check and work with him and learn how to catch a knuckleball. If not, bringing Chris Stewart in late in games wouldnt be a bad idea. He can catch the knuckleball and would be a defensive upgrade over AJ.

Haeger proved he can be very good and very bad. Lots of White Sox fans don't believe McCarthy proved anything last year, and I would NEVER rank Haeger over Brandon.

He's certainly not the favorite until KW goes through the rest of the offseason without making any more moves.

Domeshot17
11-20-2006, 08:20 PM
Half of Heagers problems come from AJ. I love AJ, but when he makes strikes turn into balls because his body or glove went the wrong way, that hurts, because then Heager is forced to either walk guys or throw it down the middle. MAJOR PROBLEM.

Cuck_The_Fubs
11-20-2006, 08:26 PM
Half of Heagers problems come from AJ. I love AJ, but when he makes strikes turn into balls because his body or glove went the wrong way, that hurts, because then Heager is forced to either walk guys or throw it down the middle. MAJOR PROBLEM.
100% agreed

ChiSoxLifer
11-20-2006, 08:33 PM
Half of Heagers problems come from AJ. I love AJ, but when he makes strikes turn into balls because his body or glove went the wrong way, that hurts, because then Heager is forced to either walk guys or throw it down the middle. MAJOR PROBLEM.

It's kind of hard to get used to a knuckle ball pitcher just called up from the minors. I'm sure during spring training AJ will have plenty of time to work with Haegar and cut down on this problem.

Rockman218
11-20-2006, 08:59 PM
Despite his sixth inning trouble, i think Javier would be an asset to a lot of teams. We could possibly two decent relievers, or one awesome reliever in a trade involving him.

mcp5185
11-20-2006, 09:32 PM
IMO, there shouldn't be tihs many people that throw 100 in the same bullpen...

major league hitters have a much better chance of hitting a fastball in the high 90s if this see one 3 straight innings...

I'm kinda hoping we don't see Aardsma before September.

These pitchers woulldn't be facing the same three-four hitters every inning. Theres nine guys in the lineup. Not to mention these guys throw other pitches and Thornton is a lefty.

Cuck_The_Fubs
11-20-2006, 09:38 PM
These pitchers woulldn't be facing the same three-four hitters every inning. Theres nine guys in the lineup. Not to mention these guys throw other pitches and Thornton is a lefty.
Nasty bullpens have variety. That's what i call Guillen style.:smile:

oeo
11-21-2006, 12:59 PM
I'm not sure about that. Jason Varitek is an All-Star catcher that can't catch a knuckler. He's so bad that the Sawx kept throwing out a catcher that did nothing but let balls go by him by the dozen for a month. The Sawx jumped through flaming hoops to get back Mirabelli who has a career because of Wakefield.

Knuckleballers aren't something you see everyday. Most catchers have never caught one.

AJ wasn't that bad for a guy that probably has never caught one before, or if he did, had minimal experience. If Haeger is seriously going to be in the bullpen, then AJ has no choice than to take the time and try to get better at catching it. Haeger's future in a Sox uniform is basically in the hands of AJ right now. If AJ doesn't learn to catch it, Haeger isn't going to last long around here.

caulfield12
11-21-2006, 01:10 PM
Nasty bullpens have variety. That's what i call Guillen style.:smile:

We could use a Kelly Wunsch, Takatsu, Myers, Pat Neshek, Chad Bradford change of pace/approach and appearance, hopefully from the LH side but I wouldn't mind RHP either.