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UserNameBlank
11-19-2006, 07:49 PM
Let's say for example some of these rumored deals revolving around our starters are true.

If Garland could bring back Danks, Masset, and Otsuka, Garcia could bring in Ervin Santana in a package, Vazquez could bring in a top pitching prospect from the Mets, and Buehrle could net Wainwright or Reyes, would anyone really be opposed to rebuilding our entire starting rotation?

Just for arguments sake, if KW was able to go into 2007 with a rotation of Contreras, McCarthy, Santana, Wainwright/Reyes, and a battle between Haeger/Phillips/Broadway/Mets prospect/Danks for the fifth spot, would anyone really be unhappy?

The Sox would still be in a position to compete in the Central with all the offense they have, but they would also be in a position to possibly put together a deal to get another established young pitcher like Willis. The Sox could then afford to pay for extensions to Dye, Crede, Iguchi, as well as pay for an elite future free agent such as Andruw Jones or Vernon Wells.

I really love our rotation as it is going into 2007, but I'm worried that the Sox will screw themselves afterwards by not getting as much as possible out of soon to be free agents and denying arbitration to those that walk.

Brian26
11-19-2006, 07:55 PM
Just for arguments sake, if KW was able to go into 2007 with a rotation of Contreras, McCarthy, Santana, Wainwright/Reyes, and a battle between Haeger/Phillips/Broadway/Mets prospect/Danks for the fifth spot, would anyone really be unhappy?


Yes, anyone with season tickets, because that's a 4th place rotation if we're lucky.

UserNameBlank
11-19-2006, 08:07 PM
Yes, anyone with season tickets, because that's a 4th place rotation if we're lucky.

Cleveland isn't going to run out anything better than that. Neither will Minnesota. And KC will suck again in 2007, too. Detroit would be the only team with a better rotation IMO.

By the time any of our current starting five hit free agency they will be looking at at least 13 million per year. The Sox can not afford that and will not pay that, so IMO it's either make one more run in 2007 or try and set ourselves up for the next few years.

The day the Sox sign a Suppan type starter for 11 million per year is the day that this team is destined for the gutter. I think if KW wants to remain competitive in a division that is only getting stronger he needs to look toward 2008 and beyond as well.

Beautox
11-19-2006, 08:17 PM
Yes, anyone with season tickets, because that's a 4th place rotation if we're lucky.

You can't say for certain that would be a 4th place finish or 1st. Weren't the marlins supposed to set the record for losses? The twins had Garza + Baker + Liriano and Bonser and they came out on top, there is nothing saying young "rookie" pitchers cant be successful in their first year, and most of those pitchers stated are just about past their injury apex.

If dealing two of MB/Garcia/Vazquez/Garland nets you top talent i wouldn't be against it.

lakeviewsoxfan
11-19-2006, 08:20 PM
I really hate the off-season

Cuck_The_Fubs
11-19-2006, 08:38 PM
I really hate the off-season

U said this about 500 times so far :tongue:

Domeshot17
11-19-2006, 08:39 PM
I like it for several reasons, and I hate it for others.

A toss up is its still questionmarks. Will these kids be as good as advertised? maybe. But will Buehlre bounce back? maybe, will Vazquez put it together? maybe? Freddy and Garland inconsistencies getting better? maybe. It doesnt make us any more consistent.

On the other hand. It cuts a TON of payroll. It also gives us a rotation made up of some of the youngest and brightest young pitchers in the game. even Danks is highly touted, and I think he could be GREAT outside of arlington (much like Chris Young will be).

I hate it because we are putting all our eggs in 1 basket. Figure, at best 1/2 of the rotation hits their cieling. Then you have 2 studs, 1 aging ace, and 2 iffy specs. Not so different then what we have now in terms of production.

lakeviewsoxfan
11-19-2006, 08:48 PM
U said this about 500 times so far :tongue:

your sig sucks he was not being sarcastic, he was really pissed off! Thats why I called the cops!!:tealpolice:

Jjav829
11-19-2006, 10:06 PM
Let's say for example some of these rumored deals revolving around our starters are true.

If Garland could bring back Danks, Masset, and Otsuka, Garcia could bring in Ervin Santana in a package, Vazquez could bring in a top pitching prospect from the Mets, and Buehrle could net Wainwright or Reyes, would anyone really be opposed to rebuilding our entire starting rotation?

Just for arguments sake, if KW was able to go into 2007 with a rotation of Contreras, McCarthy, Santana, Wainwright/Reyes, and a battle between Haeger/Phillips/Broadway/Mets prospect/Danks for the fifth spot, would anyone really be unhappy?

The Sox would still be in a position to compete in the Central with all the offense they have, but they would also be in a position to possibly put together a deal to get another established young pitcher like Willis. The Sox could then afford to pay for extensions to Dye, Crede, Iguchi, as well as pay for an elite future free agent such as Andruw Jones or Vernon Wells.

I really love our rotation as it is going into 2007, but I'm worried that the Sox will screw themselves afterwards by not getting as much as possible out of soon to be free agents and denying arbitration to those that walk.

Yes. If we're going that far, why stop there? Might as well trade Thome, Dye, Crede and Konerko for prospects and completely rebuild.

The only problem with that is we don't need to rebuild. This team isn't that far away from being World Series champions. We need a little tweaking. A few new relievers, a leadoff man, maybe a new shortstop, centerfielder or starting pitcher if the right one is available for the right price. What we don't need to do is blow it all up and start over again.

Brian26
11-19-2006, 10:59 PM
Yes. If we're going that far, why stop there? Might as well trade Thome, Dye, Crede and Konerko for prospects and completely rebuild.

The only problem with that is we don't need to rebuild. This team isn't that far away from being World Series champions. We need a little tweaking. A few new relievers, a leadoff man, maybe a new shortstop, centerfielder or starting pitcher if the right one is available for the right price. What we don't need to do is blow it all up and start over again.

That's my point. There's a window of opportunity to win another World Series, but that chance isn't going to last much longer. I doubt we're going to be able to re-sign both Dye AND Crede. Thome's career is winding down, and expecting the same production out of AJ and Iguchi into 2008/2009 might be asking too much. Trading four starting pitchers and making McCarthy the #2 or #3 starter is a step towards rebuilding now.

Years from now the 2006 season is going to seem like an even bigger wasted opportunity.

103 screwball
11-19-2006, 11:14 PM
I can tolerate rebuilding. I can tolerate a long rebuilding process starting players who aren't even ready to be in the bigs. However, I will be furious if the Sox blow up the team and rebuild without making a few more runs at a championship. I don't believe it is KW's intention to rebuild anytime soon especially with the team's growing popularity, season ticket sales, and budget over 100 million. It's fun to speculate but I can't believe Sox fans would want or even tolerate this.

getonbckthr
11-20-2006, 01:09 AM
I believe in rebuilding by way of reloading. A Garcia for Santana deal in all reality is a wash as far as talent and production however I support it because Santana is 6 years younger and I believe like 9 million dollars cheaper. If we can get the same production from a younger cheaper player opposed to someone we have already then make the move if Anaheim is willing. Same goes for Javy/ Mccarthy. If we truly feel Brandon can give us the same production as Javy combined with his age and 6 million dollar difference in salary then make the switch and move Javy to the Mets if the Mets are honestly interested in the rumored deals being thrown around. Those prospects we get for Javy combined with 1 or 2 of ours could land us Crawford. So by way of 3 moves our rotation gets younger, maintains its production, we acquire a young, cheap leadoff hitter and save like 10 million dollars. That 10 million can go along way in extending Crede, Dye or Burls. So on the whole our team gets younger, better and we extend long-term 1 of our key pieces that would be availlable next season.

DSpivack
11-20-2006, 01:29 AM
Any major reconfiguring of the team will occur after 2007, not before.

Flight #24
11-20-2006, 10:39 AM
That's my point. There's a window of opportunity to win another World Series, but that chance isn't going to last much longer. I doubt we're going to be able to re-sign both Dye AND Crede. Thome's career is winding down, and expecting the same production out of AJ and Iguchi into 2008/2009 might be asking too much. Trading four starting pitchers and making McCarthy the #2 or #3 starter is a step towards rebuilding now.

Years from now the 2006 season is going to seem like an even bigger wasted opportunity.

Here's the problem: You're always going to have that option. if you do that, in 2 years when your rebuilt rotation is ready to contend, you could say "Well, Konerko's deal is up in 2 years and we won't be able to resign him AND our young pitchers as they hit arbitration, so let's rebuild now and trade him for prospects. Plus AJ's deal is up at the end of the year so we should deal him too".

Your strategy ends in continual rebuilding and never actually contending.

The smarter thing to do is to never undergo a massive rebuilding effort but to do it gradually each year. So - trading one of the starters for a couple of prospects (ala Garland for Danks & Masset or Garcia for Pelfrey/Humber/Milledge) and holding onto the rest of your vets lets you contend this year, and then if you so choose, let one or more of your vets go after the season (or trade one of them) and fill in 1-2 spots with rookies.

So: After 06, trade Garcia for pitching prospects. After '07, plug in Sweeney/Fields in the OF and choose between letting one of Burls/Vaz/JC go (resignin Dye and replacing them with one of the prospects acquired for Garcia) or keeping them and letting Dye go (replaced with Fields/Sweeney or a traded-for Crawford). And so on. Each year you hopefully have a strong core of vets and 2-year players and plug in 1 rookie.

The Immigrant
11-20-2006, 10:47 AM
The Kids Can Play!

Lip Man 1
11-20-2006, 12:35 PM
My only comment on all this is that I think the organizations philosophy has changed somewhat with winning the title in 2005.

I personally don't think 'rebuilding' is their main mantra anymore. They may want to 'retool' and add young players into the mix every season, but gutting the club and rebuilding? I don't think that's possible any longer.

If you want to keep drawing three million a year, you don't 'rebuild.'

Lip

the gooch
11-20-2006, 03:06 PM
The Sox don't want to rebuild to that extent. The plan is to bring in a new regular every year. The inconsistencies of rookies are tolerable when not surrounded by other inconsistent players. Unfortunately, Uribe and Pods didn't help BA much.

If the Sox want to take the majority of the marketshare in Chicago, contending is a must.

(Has Kittle read the title?)

I want Mags back
11-20-2006, 04:31 PM
ive seen some terrible ideas here, but that takes the cake

caulfield12
11-20-2006, 04:57 PM
I would take Milledge back in a second...and I don't mind young pitching (Danks, Pelfrey, Reyes, Wainright, Santana) if it's QUALITY young talent. My major concern is he doesn't seem to be much of a SB threat yet...he's one of those five tool athletes like Anderson, Alex Escobar or Julio Ramirez that hasn't put it all together yet at the MLB level.

There's a marked difference between Felix Diaz/Arnie Munoz/Jon Adkins/Josh Stewart/Sean Tracey and some of the names being mentioned.

The way I look at is we've dealt Lumsden, Gio Gonzalez and Chris Young. We need to replace that talent by dealing at least one of our starters (Garcia and Garland netting the most in return at this point).

As KW says, get younger and more athletic. Another option would be Milledge in LF, Anderson/Sweeney in CF and signing Lugo to play SS (essentially replacing Garcia or Garland's salary on the payroll). We also have the trading "chip" of Josh Fields.

Domeshot17
11-20-2006, 06:48 PM
not saying im for this line of rebuilding, but how can you compare Reyes Wainwright and Ervin Santana to Josh Stewart and Sean Tracey. Its like comparing Lastings Milledge to Jeff Leifer.

caulfield12
11-20-2006, 06:57 PM
It just seems that the majority of our top prospects the last 10 years have been busts, with the exception of Crede, Magglio and Carlos Lee.

I would be happy if we had a minor league pitcher who could do as well as Bonser, Garza or even Baker did last year.

Domeshot17
11-20-2006, 07:24 PM
agreed there, but the beauty of these guys is they are (a) not home grown and not sent through our minor league system which cant develop pitchers and (b) weren't drafted by the sox, which has been another major flaw of our scouting/development staff. They got to grow up on teams that can raise um, and just come here and put it together with Coop