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View Full Version : IDLE SPECULATION: Manny Ramirez to the Sox?


jabrch
11-13-2006, 07:13 PM
With Boston appearing to have won the sweepstakes for Matsuzaka by bidding what sounds to be about 40mm, and now having to pay him 10+mm per, what are the chances they look to move Manny? We have an opening in LF. He'd fit nice in the batting order somewhere. Boston could use a young OF like BA or Sweeney.

Just thinking out loud...

SpartanSoxFan
11-13-2006, 07:36 PM
With Boston appearing to have won the sweepstakes for Matsuzaka by bidding what sounds to be about 40mm, and now having to pay him 10+mm per, what are the chances they look to move Manny? We have an opening in LF. He'd fit nice in the batting order somewhere. Boston could use a young OF like BA or Sweeney.

Just thinking out loud...

Dude, what's the score???

chisoxmike
11-13-2006, 07:37 PM
No!

MUsoxfan
11-13-2006, 07:38 PM
No thanks. Pods' defense is bad. We don't need even more of a defensive downgrade

chisoxmike
11-13-2006, 07:40 PM
No thanks. Pods' defense is bad. We don't need even more of a defensive downgrade


...and a complete utter *******.

MUsoxfan
11-13-2006, 07:45 PM
...and a complete utter *******.

That too.:cool:

jortafan
11-13-2006, 07:59 PM
I hate to admit this, but it wouldn't surprise me in the least to someday see Manny wearing the black socks of the White Sox. When one considers all the other ex-Cleveland Indians players who wound up doing stints on the South Side, it would be totally believable for Manny to play here too. Of course, it will only occur after he's completely past his days as a ferocious hitter. We'll get the washed-up version of Ramirez.

chisoxmike
11-13-2006, 08:02 PM
I hate to admit this, but it wouldn't surprise me in the least to someday see Manny wearing the black socks of the White Sox. When one considers all the other ex-Cleveland Indians players who wound up doing stints on the South Side, it would be totally believable for Manny to play here too. Of course, it will only occur after he's completely past his days as a ferocious hitter. We'll get the washed-up version of Ramirez.

With this guy...:schueler yes.

With this guy...:KW I would doubt it.

munchman33
11-13-2006, 08:04 PM
Attitude or not, the upgrade Ramirez (one of the statistically best players in the game last year) represents over Podsednik (one of the statistically worst players in the game last year) is obscenely obvious. Chosing Podsednik over Ramirez is liking saying you'd rather throw Jon Snyder every fifth game over Carlos Zambrano. Sure he's got emotional problems, but at least he doesn't completely suck.

A. Cavatica
11-13-2006, 08:12 PM
Whether it makes sense for the White Sox to get him is another question, but
the Red Sox would unload him in a heartbeat.

The Red Sox have been trying to get out from under Manny's contract for 2-3 years, and each year he gets more tradeable (as his contract dwindles). Manny has also worn out the patience of Red Sox brass. I think if you could probably get better than even odds in Boston that Manny will be traded this winter.

Boston also needs to fill a lot of holes. If they work out a deal with Matsuzaka then their starting pitching will get a lot better, but I'm not sure they'll stop there. At different times they've expressed interest in Contreras, Vazquez, Buehrle, and McCarthy (and probably Garcia, thought I can't remember that specifically). They need a lefthanded reliever badly, I bet they'd jump at Cotts. And I'm sure they'd love to have Konerko at first. So we're a potential bonanza for them as a trading partner.

I think KW probably would talk to them about Manny, because he's a special hitter, and because KW has a jones for ex-Indians. He'd certainly be an upgrade over Podsednik, even with his defensive issues. I'm not so worried about his personal issues because I think Ozzie would handle him, and because he'll be happier outside of Boston. But I don't think he solves our leadoff problem, and I don't see us taking on all that salary.

I posted earlier that the only way I could imagine a trade happening is if we dealt Konerko + spare parts for Manny + a leadoff hitter (Youkilis or Crisp, whichever floats your boat).

soxfan13
11-13-2006, 08:16 PM
Whether it makes sense for the White Sox to get him is another question, but
the Red Sox would unload him in a heartbeat.

The Red Sox have been trying to get out from under Manny's contract for 2-3 years, and each year he gets more tradeable (as his contract dwindles). Manny has also worn out the patience of Red Sox brass. I think if you could probably get better than even odds in Boston that Manny will be traded this winter.

Boston also needs to fill a lot of holes. If they work out a deal with Matsuzaka then their starting pitching will get a lot better, but I'm not sure they'll stop there. At different times they've expressed interest in Contreras, Vazquez, Buehrle, and McCarthy (and probably Garcia, thought I can't remember that specifically). They need a lefthanded reliever badly, I bet they'd jump at Cotts. And I'm sure they'd love to have Konerko at first. So we're a potential bonanza for them as a trading partner.

I think KW probably would talk to them about Manny, because he's a special hitter, and because KW has a jones for ex-Indians. He'd certainly be an upgrade over Podsednik, even with his defensive issues. I'm not so worried about his personal issues because I think Ozzie would handle him, and because he'll be happier outside of Boston. But I don't think he solves our leadoff problem, and I don't see us taking on all that salary.

I posted earlier that the only way I could imagine a trade happening is if we dealt Konerko + spare parts for Manny + a leadoff hitter (Youkilis or Crisp, whichever floats your boat).

Exactly yes he would be huge but it doesnt change the fact that either Pods has to go back to the way he was in the first half of 2005 or we need a serious upgrade in LF.

Palehose13
11-13-2006, 08:26 PM
Why would the Sox want a guy with no speed, awful derfense, and an attitude problem? They don't need more station-to-station type hitters.

MUsoxfan
11-13-2006, 08:27 PM
Attitude or not, the upgrade Ramirez (one of the statistically best players in the game last year) represents over Podsednik (one of the statistically worst players in the game last year) is obscenely obvious.


There are other things that need to be taken into consideration than exclusively stats

buehrle4cy05
11-13-2006, 08:31 PM
Why would the Sox want a guy with no speed, awful derfense, and an attitude problem? They don't need more station-to-station type hitters.

Ding ding ding! The Sox already have a slow righty power hitter. Paul Konerko.

Offense doesn't win championships. A lineup with Dye/Thome/Ramirez/Konerko/Crede in the middle would be amazing, but look at this year's Mets. They had a great lineup, and they didn't win the World Series.

CLR01
11-13-2006, 08:50 PM
We have an opening in LF.


Hell No. Manny could barely cover half of that opening in LF.

Sargeant79
11-13-2006, 08:53 PM
There has been speculation (and threads) about this several times in recent years. I remember Kenny Williams on the record last winter saying something to the effect of, "I don't think he's our kind of player."

Not gonna happen.

Craig Grebeck
11-13-2006, 09:18 PM
Ding ding ding! The Sox already have a slow righty power hitter. Paul Konerko.

Offense doesn't win championships. A lineup with Dye/Thome/Ramirez/Konerko/Crede in the middle would be amazing, but look at this year's Mets. They had a great lineup, and they didn't win the World Series.
It doesn't hurt. Having a good staff and a good offense is not mutually exclusive.

buehrle4cy05
11-13-2006, 09:20 PM
It doesn't hurt. Having a good staff and a good offense is not mutually exclusive.

That's true, but Manny is making something like $20 million per year. Unless the Red Sox pick up over half of that, it will hinder the chances of the Sox to sign quality pitching.

Domeshot17
11-13-2006, 09:35 PM
(1) The change of pace out of boston would do wonders for manny

(2) Ozzie wouldnt let Manny be Manny. Ozzie would make Manny play ball.

(3) Manny would do to thome what he did for Ortiz. Manny is a much more feared hitter then Konerko. The protection the lineup see's would be 2nd to none. You can pitch around a Crede or an AJ because most of the the time they wont burn you. They are good hitters, but not the kind you really worry about.

(4) Manny Ramirez is a frickin clutch hitter. Remember the ALDS in 05, when the wrong sox scored their few runs, Manny was knocking them in.

(5) going back to 2, I think playing for Ozzie and playing for mr mop Francona would change Manny's act a lot. HE DOESNT WANT TO BE IN BOSTON.

Other guys who were considered cancers that won championships in Chicago and made a huge difference: Bobby Jenks, AJ, Dennis Rodman.

You ask the 24 other guys in the locker room if they would like to play with Manny Ramirez, you are going to get 24 hell yes's and 1 (Pods) No.

chisoxmike
11-13-2006, 09:39 PM
(2) Ozzie wouldnt let Manny be Manny. Ozzie would make Manny play ball.


...then Manny demands to be traded.

**** Manny and his bull****. We don't need another big bat. All the lineup really needs is a leadoff hitter with speed and knows how to work a count.

Domeshot17
11-13-2006, 09:42 PM
I agree. Let that come from the SS. Get rid of Uribe. Uribe belongs no where near a starting lineup. Im just saying, if Manny came to the sox, I think he would be fine. Ozzie gets him. I think he would like playing for Ozzie.

I promise if we got him, and we won another world series with him, you guys would change your tune so fast. It was just the same with AJ.

Ol' No. 2
11-13-2006, 10:04 PM
I agree. Let that come from the SS. Get rid of Uribe. Uribe belongs no where near a starting lineup. Im just saying, if Manny came to the sox, I think he would be fine. Ozzie gets him. I think he would like playing for Ozzie.

I promise if we got him, and we won another world series with him, you guys would change your tune so fast. It was just the same with AJ.If you think Ozzie has some sort of magic wand to make troublesome players into model citizens, you're kidding yourself. Manny will always be Manny no matter who his manager is.

jabrch
11-13-2006, 10:20 PM
Why would the Sox want a guy with no speed, awful derfense, and an attitude problem? They don't need more station-to-station type hitters.

Hose, there isn't any lineup that Manny Ramirez wouldn't make better. There's nothing wrong with being a station to station hitter when you are a .314/.411/.600 hitter on your career. Last year, he was .321/.439/.619. For crying out loud, he could be our LEADOFF HITTER and we'd be better just for having him in the lineup.

Just to break that down, he gets a hit 31% of his ABs. He gets on base 41% of his PA. He creates nearly .6 a base per AB.

We don't need a station to station type hitter like that? Non-sense

jabrch
11-13-2006, 10:21 PM
...then Manny demands to be traded.

**** Manny and his bull****. We don't need another big bat. All the lineup really needs is a leadoff hitter with speed and knows how to work a count.

Manny is a better hitter than any "leadoff hitter with speed" that we will be acquiring.

WizardsofOzzie
11-13-2006, 10:37 PM
Only if Ozzie bitch slaps him everytime he say something stupid :smile:

munchman33
11-13-2006, 11:00 PM
There are other things that need to be taken into consideration than exclusively stats

:rolleyes:

I can't believe there are people on this planet arguing Scott Podsednik is more valuable than Manny Ramirez. I am disappointed that all of those people are White Sox fans.

Honestly people, on what planet is Manny Ramirez not a better option than a leadoff hitter who can't get on base, can't steal bases, can't read outfield flies, and has no arm? Get over Podsednik's 2005 already. There was no precedence. And it's never happening again.

RadioheadRocks
11-13-2006, 11:09 PM
Haven't we beaten this dead horse before???!!!???!!! :angry:

For the last time, let "Manny be Manny" elsewhere!!!

fquaye149
11-13-2006, 11:11 PM
...and a complete utter *******.

Kind of like Carl Everett?

Ever notice how the best hitter on the Red Sox at any given point in time is always comes off looking like a jerkoff?

Ted Williams? Jim Rice? Wade Boggs?

CLR01
11-13-2006, 11:11 PM
Hose, there isn't any lineup that Manny Ramirez wouldn't make better. There's nothing wrong with being a station to station hitter when you are a .314/.411/.600 hitter on your career. Last year, he was .321/.439/.619. For crying out loud, he could be our LEADOFF HITTER and we'd be better just for having him in the lineup.


Yes sir, the only thing missing from last years team was more solo HR's.

fquaye149
11-13-2006, 11:13 PM
Why would the Sox want a guy with no speed, awful derfense, and an attitude problem? They don't need more station-to-station type hitters.

Because he's one of the best hitters in baseball.

Because he gives you a .400+ OBP almost every year. 40+ HR almost every year. 100+ RBI every year.

When you get a chance to get one of the best hitters in baseball you take it, despite any perceived overabundance of "station to station hitters".

Remember---it's hard to be station-to-station when your hits are clearing the fence.

fquaye149
11-13-2006, 11:14 PM
Yes sir, the only thing missing from last years team was more solo HR's.

Hell, Manny in the leadoff spots could just hit his standard 40 HR all year (no singles, no doubles, no multitudinous walks) and he would probably produce a comparable amount of runs as Pods.

(hyperbole much? but still!!!!)

:redneck

MUsoxfan
11-13-2006, 11:26 PM
:rolleyes:

I can't believe there are people on this planet arguing Scott Podsednik is more valuable than Manny Ramirez. I am disappointed that all of those people are White Sox fans.

Honestly people, on what planet is Manny Ramirez not a better option than a leadoff hitter who can't get on base, can't steal bases, can't read outfield flies, and has no arm? Get over Podsednik's 2005 already. There was no precedence. And it's never happening again.

My intent was not to directly compare Ramirez and Podsednik. Both leave alot to be desired in the field.

My intent was to say that as good as Manny's numbers are, there are alot of intangibles the he lacks for which there are not numbers. Perhaps there are other possibilites in the land of baseball that present a better option for the Sox outfield than Ramirez and Podsednik

fquaye149
11-13-2006, 11:27 PM
My intent was not to directly compare Ramirez and Podsednik. Both leave alot to be desired in the field.

My intent was to say that as good as Manny's numbers are, there are alot of intangibles the he lacks for which there are not numbers. Perhaps there are other possibilites in the land of baseball that present a better option for the Sox outfield than Ramirez and Podsednik

defensively? basically anyone in baseball would be better than either.

offensively? no one better than Manny in left, unless KW can get Pujols and have the gold glove winning 1B switch to LF (.....um.....hee hee)

total package? depends how much you value defense vs. offense. I dont' know where I stand...I think I value defense more than most...but not enough to say I wouldn't piss my pants over the possibility of getting Manny

CLR01
11-13-2006, 11:40 PM
I dont' know where I stand...I think I value defense more than most...but not enough to say I wouldn't piss my pants over the possibility of getting Manny


I thought I didn't know either and then I thought about trying to explain to the pitchers that all the doubles hit to the LF are okay because while he is lazy and slow he hits a ton.

fquaye149
11-13-2006, 11:45 PM
I thought I didn't know either and then I thought about trying to explain to the pitchers that all the doubles hit to the LF are okay because while he is lazy and slow he hits a ton.

You might say "that's the mother****er whose 120 runs batted in and 100 runs scores=220 runs, aka almost 100 more runs than Podsednik created last year, and I damn well doubt that his errors will result in 100 runs."

Or you might say, "sorry."

That's why I'm undecided.

Rocky Soprano
11-13-2006, 11:48 PM
We didnt need Manny to win the World Series and dont need him to win again. We won in part because Pods was getting on base and was a threat on the bases. We need a good lead off hitter not a piece of ****, only cares about himself, selfish player.

RadioheadRocks
11-13-2006, 11:51 PM
We didnt need Manny to win the World Series and dont need him to win again. We won in part because Pods was getting on base and was a threat on the bases. We need a good lead off hitter not a piece of ****, only cares about himself, selfish player.


:thumbsup:

fquaye149
11-13-2006, 11:52 PM
We didnt need Manny to win the World Series and dont need him to win again. We won in part because Pods was getting on base and was a threat on the bases. We need a good lead off hitter not a piece of ****, only cares about himself, selfish player.

So he only cares about himself like Ted Williams, Jim Rice, and Carl Everett? I think we all agree the White Sox would be better off without Jim Rice, Carl Everett in his Boston years or the 1941 Teddy Ballgame. After all, none of them are leadoff hitters.

Does everyone on this board only eat the **** that ESPN and the Boston media (redundant?) spoonfeed them.

Also, I'm confused where this magical OBP/speed leadoff hitter comes from. Please, PLEASE God, don't tell me you think JUAN PIERRE would be a good option for this role.

LOL this is getting curiouser by the moment.

CLR01
11-13-2006, 11:55 PM
You might say "that's the mother****er whose 120 runs batted in and 100 runs scores=220 runs, aka almost 100 more runs than Podsednik created last year, and I damn well doubt that his errors will result in 100 runs."

Or you might say, "sorry."

That's why I'm undecided.

I would prefer to say the White Sox are the 2007 World Champions.

I'm not saying that Manny couldn't help them get there but I have seen what the station to station, swing for the fences White Sox can do for most of the 21st century and I'm not a big fan of it.

fquaye149
11-14-2006, 12:02 AM
I would prefer to say the White Sox are the 2007 World Champions.

I'm not saying that Manny couldn't help them get there but I have seen what the station to station, swing for the fences White Sox can do for most of the 21st century and I'm not a big fan of it.

Sure but the two are not mutually exclusive. I hated the teams of 2003 and 2004 especially, but their problem was having lousy OBP guys in the middle---C Lee and Magglio weren't much more than their BA, which mean they were on base about 35% of the time...not all that mindblowing. Meanwhile, PK was not his consistent self of the past 1.5 seasons, Frank was in and out of the lineup, and Jose was...well, Jose. Comparing that to Paulie, Thome and Dye, they are much more solid quote/unquote station to station hitters. Add Manny to that and you get a REAL station to station team: not that crap we fielded under Manuel.

Plus we still can get that leadoff hitter somewhere and we can still play fundamental baseball.

But still, I'm not 100% convinced...2003-2004 damaged me. I'm on the fence...but I think most of the Manny arguments here are ESPN blather and not as reasoned as yours

Nellie_Fox
11-14-2006, 12:03 AM
You might say "that's the mother****er whose 120 runs batted in and 100 runs scores=220 runs,...His 120 RBI and 100 runs scored don't add up to 220 runs, because every homerun is both an RBI and a run scored, but they are the same run.

Put me down as a NO MANNY person.

fquaye149
11-14-2006, 12:04 AM
His 120 RBI and 100 runs scored don't add up to 220 runs, because every homerun is both an RBI and a run scored, but they are the same run.

That's a good point. My bad. Even so, since he only hits 40-some home runs a year, that adds up to 180 which is a significant amt more than Pods produced.

getonbckthr
11-14-2006, 12:09 AM
I would love it if and only if we find a way to acquire a leadoff hitter at SS or CF. People are saying that Manny couldn't handle covering LF in Comiskey (no not the cell) but with a guy like Anderson, Sweeney or Crawford in CF it definately shrinks his area to patrol. Now what would it take to get Manny and would it make sense for both teams involved? I would assume a package of Vasquez, Pods and Cotts could land us Manny. Manny makes like 20 million a year. Out of that 20 million 6.5 to Vasquez, 10 to Matsuzaka (sp) and Pods and Cotts split the remaining 3.5 Boston lost power but added 2 good arms, a leadoff hitter and a lefty reliever. What would stop Boston at that point from signing Lee or Soriano to play LF, move Pods to CF and allow them to move Crisp and Clement for anything or prospects to make up for what they spent on Lee/Soriano. As far as the real Sox as I said earlier we would have to guarentee acquiring a leadoff hitter somewhere whether it be an army of prospects (Anderson, Broadway, Haegar, rogowski) for Crawford or Uribe for Vizquel. The question I have is are the Sox willing to add 10 million to the payroll because that is the difference I believe of Vasquez and Pods to Manny.

A. Cavatica
11-14-2006, 12:26 AM
All of which is why I think a Manny trade would have to be along the lines of Konerko + Garcia for Manny + Youkilis, because we'd unload two big salaries to balance the one huge one, and because we'd get a leadoff hitter back.

Mind you, I don't like this trade, I'm just trying to imagine what a balanced one would look like.

MUsoxfan
11-14-2006, 01:48 AM
All of which is why I think a Manny trade would have to be along the lines of Konerko + Garcia for Manny + Youkilis, because we'd unload two big salaries to balance the one huge one, and because we'd get a leadoff hitter back.

Mind you, I don't like this trade, I'm just trying to imagine what a balanced one would look like.

Not exactly a prototypical leadoff guy. Crisp would suit that role more, especially for a monetary comparison. However I think we're all talking pie in the sky here because there's not a chance Manny ever enters KW's mind unless the deal is mind-boggling in favor of the Palehose

eastchicagosoxfan
11-14-2006, 05:42 AM
Why would the Sox want a guy with no speed, awful derfense, and an attitude problem? They don't need more station-to-station type hitters.

Right On! Manny isn't a grinder, and he brings none of the qualities that led to the 2005 World Series victory. He has no speed, he doesn't hustle with the little speed he has, and his defense is poor. The Sox won with pitching, defense, great situational hitting and pitching, and aggressive baserunning. Manny is a more productive version of Carlos Lee.

1951Campbell
11-14-2006, 09:10 AM
Ever notice how the best hitter on the Red Sox at any given point in time is always comes off looking like a jerkoff?

Ted Williams? Jim Rice? Wade Boggs?

That's just a coincidence and has nothing to do with Boston's media or fan culture.

Anyway, the question at hand: I think we have enough bats, thank you very much. Now, if we could acquire Manny and immediately flip him for some pitching, I'm all ears.

Fenway
11-14-2006, 09:14 AM
Manny has his faults but nobody can deny his numbers.

But he quit on the Red Sox the final 6 weeks of 2006, that was the last straw here.

I have a feeling he winding up wither in Anaheim or 1060 W Addison

spiffie
11-14-2006, 09:18 AM
That's true, but Manny is making something like $20 million per year. Unless the Red Sox pick up over half of that, it will hinder the chances of the Sox to sign quality pitching.
Theoretically we already have quality pitching. Since no one wants to trade Buehrle, Contreras or Garland, and everyone seems to expect McCarthy to step in and perform as a major league starter, the question is just which very good pitcher we get rid of. Garcia and Sweeney for Ramirez with the Red Sox picking up $5 million a year of his salary and I'd do that in a heartbeat.

oeo
11-14-2006, 09:48 AM
Manny has his faults but nobody can deny his numbers.

But he quit on the Red Sox the final 6 weeks of 2006, that was the last straw here.

I have a feeling he winding up wither in Anaheim or 1060 W Addison

Yes, his numbers with the bat. Which is why he would make a damn good DH, but that's all I'd want him for. So unless Thome is on his way out, we do not need him.

pmck003
11-14-2006, 10:16 AM
I would really like Manny but it seems to me you might as well go for A-rod instead. Hopefully NY would give some money and I think A-rod would be worth an extra 3-5 mil and a prospect over Manny.

chisoxmike
11-14-2006, 12:32 PM
I can't believe there are so many responces to this thread. (Mine included) It's not going to happen. This thread is very Whitesox4ever-esk.

:threadblows:

munchman33
11-14-2006, 12:34 PM
I can't believe there are so many responces to this thread. (Mine included) It's not going to happen. This thread is very Whitesox4ever-esk.

:threadblows:


The majority of responses have nothing to do with the feasability of the trade. Most are people who say they wouldn't take Ramirez on their team, which is just utterly ridiculous.

chisoxmike
11-14-2006, 12:35 PM
The majority of responses have nothing to do with the feasability of the trade. Most are people who say they wouldn't take Ramirez on their team, which is just utterly ridiculous.

We don't need him and have no use for that jagbag, which is why I wouldn't take him.

oeo
11-14-2006, 12:41 PM
The majority of responses have nothing to do with the feasability of the trade. Most are people who say they wouldn't take Ramirez on their team, which is just utterly ridiculous.

What's utterly ridiculous is when people will send all kinds of prospects to the Red Sox for a guy that can hit. He's not worth what we'd have to give up, especially when we do not need a big bat. Let him go to a team that is willing to give up a lot for a guy they actually need (Astros, Flubs...although they don't have much to offer, Angels). We need a leadoff hitter/pitching, not a selfish, ego-driven power hitter. Our resources can be spent elsewhere, where they will be more beneficial to the team; not only next year, but in years to come.

Rocky Soprano
11-14-2006, 01:00 PM
The majority of responses have nothing to do with the feasability of the trade. Most are people who say they wouldn't take Ramirez on their team, which is just utterly ridiculous.

If you rather have Ramirez then say a Crawford, then I'm really glad you dont run the Sox.

We DO NOT need another power hitter, would his offense help? Yes. Would he bring us another ring, Doubt it.

soxfan13
11-14-2006, 01:45 PM
If you rather have Ramirez then say a Crawford, then I'm really glad you dont run the Sox.

We DO NOT need another power hitter, would his offense help? Yes. Would he bring us another ring, Doubt it.

I dont remember anyone stating that they wanted Manny over Crawford.

spiffie
11-14-2006, 01:55 PM
What's utterly ridiculous is when people will send all kinds of prospects to the Red Sox for a guy that can hit. He's not worth what we'd have to give up, especially when we do not need a big bat. Let him go to a team that is willing to give up a lot for a guy they actually need (Astros, Flubs...although they don't have much to offer, Angels). We need a leadoff hitter/pitching, not a selfish, ego-driven power hitter. Our resources can be spent elsewhere, where they will be more beneficial to the team; not only next year, but in years to come.
I don't get where this sense that we can't do anything else this offseason because we need pitching is coming from. We're supposed to have SIX all-star caliber starters, and at least three stud arms in the pen. So we need at most two more solid bullpen arms. Now, if you're saying "don't spend money on Ramirez because we could use that on Zito" then I'm paying attention and interested. But otherwise the pitching situation is not one that will require much in the way of fiscal resources to fix.

I just wonder, would the extra couple hundred points of OPS that Ramirez would bring in LF over Podsednik count less because Manny isn't the world's greatest guy? Because if each of his 40 or so HR will only be 1/2 run each due to the "head case penalty" then I am totally against this idea.

Ol' No. 2
11-14-2006, 02:23 PM
I don't get where this sense that we can't do anything else this offseason because we need pitching is coming from. We're supposed to have SIX all-star caliber starters, and at least three stud arms in the pen. So we need at most two more solid bullpen arms. Now, if you're saying "don't spend money on Ramirez because we could use that on Zito" then I'm paying attention and interested. But otherwise the pitching situation is not one that will require much in the way of fiscal resources to fix.

I just wonder, would the extra couple hundred points of OPS that Ramirez would bring in LF over Podsednik count less because Manny isn't the world's greatest guy? Because if each of his 40 or so HR will only be 1/2 run each due to the "head case penalty" then I am totally against this idea.1. Ramirez can barely play LF in Fenway. Anywhere else he'd be a disaster.

2. We don't need another DH.

3. We do need a leadoff hitter.

Manny Ramirez is exactly what the Sox don't need. It's not that he's not a good hitter, but just assembling good hitters is not a prescription for success. If you don't believe me, ask Brian Cashman.

spiffie
11-14-2006, 02:35 PM
Manny Ramirez is exactly what the Sox don't need. It's not that he's not a good hitter, but just assembling good hitters is not a prescription for success. If you don't believe me, ask Brian Cashman.
I asked Brian Cashman, and he said his problem was spending over $100 million on contracts for guys like Jaret Wright and Carl Pavano and Kenny (too insane for New York) Rogers, and the many other ****ty pitchers that have tromped through the rotation. He told me it was their ridiculously good offense that has gotten them to the playoffs every single year for a decade, and that if he had some better starting pitching that Big Stein would not be so pissed off about things.

In the end, the point is likely moot. The Red Sox aren't going to move Manny Ramirez. But considering Scott Podsednik's defense in LF, I don't think the ridiculous amount of offense gained from that change would be offset by the defensive issues. If we were talking about replacing a gold glover with Manny, I'd be more receptive to this argument, but we're looking at possibly the weakest LF arm in baseball.

I agree we do need a leadoff hitter. Get a SS with a decent OBP, put him at #1, let Thome/Dye/Konerko/Ramirez/Crede bring him home repeatedly, hope to God that our starting pitching doesn't do what it did last year, since no one here seems to want to even consider any idea that would do anything beyond at most trade off one of the excess starters, and let it rip.

Personally, I'd rather get Michael Young and Carl Crawford, but hey, if Boston is balls-out to move him, I can't imagine Kenny, no matter what he says in public, wouldn't listen.

chisoxmike
11-14-2006, 02:46 PM
.

Personally, I'd rather get Michael Young and Carl Crawford....

:praying:

dcb56
11-14-2006, 02:48 PM
Right On! Manny isn't a grinder, and he brings none of the qualities that led to the 2005 World Series victory. He has no speed, he doesn't hustle with the little speed he has, and his defense is poor. The Sox won with pitching, defense, great situational hitting and pitching, and aggressive baserunning. Manny is a more productive version of Carlos Lee.


Who cares if he isn't a "grinder"? Manny had plenty of the qualities that led to Boston's 2004 World Series victory.

Has this fanbase reduced itself to the point where if a player doesn't fit some sterotypical mold (especially one created by the marketing department) then there is no possible way he could make the team better, similar to the morons who called into the Score earlier this football season all worked up in a dither because the Bears were passing the ball to win games instead of relying on a "smashmouth" running attack? Manny is one of the best hitters in the game and would undoubtedly make the team better even with his defensive liabilities. If there's a deal out there that would work for both teams, then more power to KW to get it done.

Of course all of this is just idle speculation...

MUsoxfan
11-14-2006, 03:01 PM
Who cares if he isn't a "grinder"? Manny had plenty of the qualities that led to Boston's 2004 World Series victory.

Has this fanbase reduced itself to the point where if a player doesn't fit some sterotypical mold (especially one created by the marketing department) then there is no possible way he could make the team better, similar to the morons who called into the Score earlier this football season all worked up in a dither because the Bears were passing the ball to win games instead of relying on a "smashmouth" running attack? Manny is one of the best hitters in the game and would undoubtedly make the team better even with his defensive liabilities. If there's a deal out there that would work for both teams, then more power to KW to get it done.

Of course all of this is just idle speculation...

We've seen what a team of bashers does for the Sox and while good by most teams standards, it didn't win any divisions

chisoxmike
11-14-2006, 03:07 PM
We've seen what a team of bashers does for the Sox and while good by most teams standards, it didn't win any divisions

You mean 1997, 1998, 2001, 2002, 2003, and 2004 didn't do it for you? :D:

spiffie
11-14-2006, 03:08 PM
We've seen what a team of bashers does for the Sox and while good by most teams standards, it didn't win any divisions
Nope. The common thread in White Sox division winners has been pitching:
2005 - 1st in AL ERA
2000 - 4th in AL ERA
1994 (they were winning) - 1st in AL ERA
1993 - 1st in AL ERA
1983 - 3rd in AL ERA

So, how do we fix the pitching so that we're not 10th out of 14 next year? Or is the offseason plan just to cross fingers and pray, since nothing we do on offense will matter one whit if the pitching isn't in the top 3-4. Because all the speedy grinders with big hearts won't do jack **** if we can't outpitch people.

spiffie
11-14-2006, 03:11 PM
You mean 1997, 1998, 2001, 2002, 2003, and 2004 didn't do it for you? :D:
They were as good as I'm sure 1954, 1955, 1956, 1957, 1958, 1960, 1961, 1962, 1963, 1964, 1965, 1966, and 1967 must have been for Sox fans then. Or how about 1990, 1991, and 1992, in which we were in the top 3 in SB each year but in the bottom half for HR? Does that mean speed won't win either? If you want to point to ways to have a team fail, the Sox have pretty much tried every single one of them over the 89 years in which we have one World Series title.

MUsoxfan
11-14-2006, 03:14 PM
Nope. The common thread in White Sox division winners has been pitching:
2005 - 1st in AL ERA
2000 - 4th in AL ERA
1994 (they were winning) - 1st in AL ERA
1993 - 1st in AL ERA
1983 - 3rd in AL ERA

So, how do we fix the pitching so that we're not 10th out of 14 next year? Or is the offseason plan just to cross fingers and pray, since nothing we do on offense will matter one whit if the pitching isn't in the top 3-4. Because all the speedy grinders with big hearts won't do jack **** if we can't outpitch people.

Fine, then advocate spending that ridiculous amount of salary that Manny would take up and instead spending it on pitching. This team does not need a "me-first" hitter. For every solo HR he'll hit, he'll give up a run on a ball hit down the line his fat ass won't be able to get to

CLR01
11-14-2006, 03:29 PM
. Because all the speedy grinders with big hearts won't do jack **** if we can't outpitch people.

And neither will a big bat like Manny "I'm going to pout because I can't go to Burning Man" Ramirez. So can we please stop talking about plugging in ****ty defensive players who actually help make the Sox pitching worse and worry about how to make the pitching better or get some speed in the lineup and on base so the big bats we do have are actually driving in runs with those doubles and longballs.

spiffie
11-14-2006, 03:33 PM
Fine, then advocate spending that ridiculous amount of salary that Manny would take up and instead spending it on pitching. This team does not need a "me-first" hitter. For every solo HR he'll hit, he'll give up a run on a ball hit down the line his fat ass won't be able to get to
I've tried advocating that, and everyone says that basically the only person in baseball they'd want over any of our 6 starters is Johan Santana, so that's out.

A quick stat on Ramirez:
2006: 18 of 35 HR with men on base
2005: 32 of 45 HR with men on base
2004: 18 of 43 HR with men on base
Total last three years: 68 of 123 HR with men on base (55%) Perhaps he only hits the HR with men on base to pad his RBI totals.

I guess I'm just not sure how one picks out a "Me-first" hitter. It would seem to me a guy who gets a lot of hits and gets on base a lot helps out his whole team. I've never really heard anything about Ramirez actively working against runners on base. I suppose he might be bad at hitting the opposite way with men on base, but we've tended to forgive that in Thome and Konerko.

guillen4life13
11-14-2006, 04:08 PM
I've tried advocating that, and everyone says that basically the only person in baseball they'd want over any of our 6 starters is Johan Santana, so that's out.

A quick stat on Ramirez:
2006: 18 of 35 HR with men on base
2005: 32 of 45 HR with men on base
2004: 18 of 43 HR with men on base
Total last three years: 68 of 123 HR with men on base (55%) Perhaps he only hits the HR with men on base to pad his RBI totals.

I guess I'm just not sure how one picks out a "Me-first" hitter. It would seem to me a guy who gets a lot of hits and gets on base a lot helps out his whole team. I've never really heard anything about Ramirez actively working against runners on base. I suppose he might be bad at hitting the opposite way with men on base, but we've tended to forgive that in Thome and Konerko.

While to some extent I agree with your point, Thome and Konerko have what most consider to be very friendly, clubhouse friendly personalities. Neither has ever demanded a trade or done anything that would put them into the "clubhouse cancer" category.

If I'm KW, if there's a deal on the table for Ramirez, before pulling the trigger on anything, I'd speak to Manny first hand and also ask Thome about Manny, considering Thome probably has the most experience with him of anyone else on the Sox.

Personally, in terms of production, I'd much rather have a Ramirez over a Thome anyday, and I think that Ramirez would fit very well in a White Sox DH role. I'm not the biggest fan of Thome as a hitter, though he seems like a swell guy. I just don't like all the K's and slowness.

Come to think of it though, Manny would be a lot like Frank, at least in Kenny's eyes. It's not going to happen.

NardiWasHere
11-14-2006, 04:09 PM
I don't seem to understand.

The level of production Manny brings to the table is not even in the same hemisphere as Podsednik. If Manny is the only move the Sox make, then of course, the Sox haven't addressed their needs... HOWEVER, I don't understand why someone would not want this guy on the team...

Hypothetical offseason...
+Manny
+Bullpen Help
+SS Leadoff hitter

Why is this undesirable? Because he's a goofball?

Manny to ChiSox gets blasted on this board, but If the player in question was Frank Thomas (A much lesser player at this point in his career), I have a feeling these same people would be going nuts if someone called Frank a "Me-First" player or "Useless Defensively" or "Fat" (And it wouldn't be the first time) .... But I guess you can't let bias and ignorance get in the way of a good post, eh?

NardiWasHere
11-14-2006, 04:12 PM
While to some extent I agree with your point, Thome and Konerko have what most consider to be very friendly, clubhouse friendly personalities. Neither has ever demanded a trade or done anything that would put them into the "clubhouse cancer" category.


Manny being a complete moron doesn't necessarily make him a clubhouse cancer. It just makes him stupid... Ask Big Papi if he likes having Manny around...

Ol' No. 2
11-14-2006, 04:15 PM
I don't seem to understand.

The level of production Manny brings to the table is not even in the same hemisphere as Podsednik. If Manny is the only move the Sox make, then of course, the Sox haven't addressed their needs... HOWEVER, I don't understand why someone would not want this guy on the team...

Hypothetical offseason...
+Manny
+Bullpen Help
+SS Leadoff hitter

Why is this undesirable? Because he's a goofball?

Manny to ChiSox gets blasted on this board, but If the player in question was Frank Thomas (A much lesser player at this point in his career), I have a feeling these same people would be going nuts if someone called Frank a "Me-First" player or "Useless Defensively" or "Fat" (And it wouldn't be the first time) .... But I guess you can't let bias and ignorance get in the way of a good post, eh?It gets blasted because it doesn't address a single critical need the Sox have.

1. middle relief
2. leadoff hitter
3. more production from the bottom of the order
4. better situational hitting
.
.
.
387. More slugging from the middle of the order.

For another team that is in need of middle-of-the-order production, he'd be fine. This is not fantasy baseball.

NardiWasHere
11-14-2006, 04:43 PM
It gets blasted because it doesn't address a single critical need the Sox have.

1. middle relief
2. leadoff hitter
3. more production from the bottom of the order
4. better situational hitting
.
.
.
387. More slugging from the middle of the order.

For another team that is in need of middle-of-the-order production, he'd be fine. This is not fantasy baseball.

Why does the hypothetical pickup of Manny forbid any moves pertaining to middle relief or a leadoff hitter? Also, when Manny is inserted in the middle of the order the bottom gets stronger as players are moved down a slot.

I don't understand ON2... When Arod rumors were flying you were very much in favor of the idea (as was I)......But wait... ARod can't pitch out of the bullpen... ARod doesn't leadoff...

Remember 10-12-2006? I think people have gotten a little loopy from banging their heads on the wall all season long.

If people don't like it because they think there are better moves Kenny could make, fine, let's hear 'em. But this is ALEX FRIKKIN' RODRIGUEZ!!! He's only a certain hall-of-famer and one of the best players in the game and would instantly be the best player on the team. And it in no way precludes them making additional moves to address the bullpen, which everyone agrees is the most glaring problem. In fact, by making Uribe trade bait, it actually enables that move.

HOW IS THIS DIFFERENT? I don't understand....

DISCLAIMER:
Manny isn't ARod, but you can't deny he is
(a) A special player
(b) An upgrade in LF

Cuck_The_Fubs
11-14-2006, 04:44 PM
Manny sucks. He's the giant tumor on any team he is on.

spiffie
11-14-2006, 04:51 PM
Manny sucks. He's the giant tumor on any team he is on.
You are so right. Thank goodness he took the 2004 season off or the Red Sox never would have won the World Series.

Ol' No. 2
11-14-2006, 04:52 PM
Why does the hypothetical pickup of Manny forbid any moves pertaining to middle relief or a leadoff hitter? Also, when Manny is inserted in the middle of the order the bottom gets stronger as players are moved down a slot.

I don't understand ON2... When Arod rumors were flying you were very much in favor of the idea (as was I)......But wait... ARod can't pitch out of the bullpen... ARod doesn't leadoff...

Remember 10-12-2006?

HOW IS THIS DIFFERENT? I don't understand....

DISCLAIMER:
Manny isn't ARod, but you can't deny he is
(a) A special player
(b) An upgrade in LFThe difference is that Rodriguez would replace "Sweet Swing" Uribe. That's a straight upgrade. It's not so simple with Ramirez. Where would he play? If he replaces Pods in LF, then who leads off? You need to make ANOTHER move to get a leadoff hitter. And you're still stuck with Uribe. But you've now made it tougher to address those two holes because you spent all your money on Ramirez.

Also:
Rodriguez: Gold Glove
Ramirez: Cement Glove

Edit: I'll make it even simpler. Among the position players, the Sox have three basic needs:

1. A leadoff hitter better than Scott Podsednik
2. A CF who can hit
3. A SS who can hit

Alex Rodriguez addresses one of those needs. Manny Ramirez does not.

spiffie
11-14-2006, 04:54 PM
It gets blasted because it doesn't address a single critical need the Sox have.

1. middle relief
2. leadoff hitter
3. more production from the bottom of the order
4. better situational hitting
.
.
.
387. More slugging from the middle of the order.

For another team that is in need of middle-of-the-order production, he'd be fine. This is not fantasy baseball.
FWIW, replacing Pods with Ramirez (assuming KW would get any sort of upgrade for leadoff) would greatly help the bottom of the order. Let's just assume that he were to upgrade leadoff in either SS or CF. The order would look something like:

1. Leadoff hitter
2. Iguchi
3. Thome
4. Ramirez
5. Konerko
6. Dye
7. Pierzynski
8. Crede
9. Uribe/Anderson/other

I would say that by making the lineup strong 1-8 you've adressed the bottom of the order need. Considering your 8 spot would be a guy who last year went off for about a 300/30 season, I'd take that.

And in regards to the cash...if you were to ship one of the starters for Ramirez and cash you'd be looking at a couple million change. Figure the drop off from the couple million no longer spent on Pods and it's about a 2-3 million a year change in payroll. Hardly anything that would hamstring them from going after a Roberts or Catalanatto or someone else who gets on at a nice clip to lead off.

NardiWasHere
11-14-2006, 05:03 PM
The difference is that Rodriguez would replace "Sweet Swing" Uribe. That's a straight upgrade. It's not so simple with Ramirez. Where would he play? If he replaces Pods in LF, then who leads off? You need to make ANOTHER move to get a leadoff hitter. And you're still stuck with Uribe. But you've now made it tougher to address those two holes because you spent all your money on Ramirez.

Also:
Rodriguez: Gold Glove
Ramirez: Cement Glove

Many people would say they'd like to see "'Sweet Swing' Uribe" AND Pods replaced. Although, I know you like Scotty, I wouldn't mind seeing LF and SS upgraded.

Also, it isn't relevant to compare Arod and Ramirez defensively as they play different positions:

Defense:
Pods: Bad
Ramirez: Bad

At least Manny has a functional arm. I'm not sure if Scotty has one of those.

Another point: Manny makes it easier to deal another young outfielder if KW really wanted... Thus, filling another hole (Leadoff SS, bulpen, etc.)

Ol' No. 2
11-14-2006, 05:06 PM
FWIW, replacing Pods with Ramirez (assuming KW would get any sort of upgrade for leadoff) would greatly help the bottom of the order. Let's just assume that he were to upgrade leadoff in either SS or CF. The order would look something like:

1. Leadoff hitter
2. Iguchi
3. Thome
4. Ramirez
5. Konerko
6. Dye
7. Pierzynski
8. Crede
9. Uribe/Anderson/other

I would say that by making the lineup strong 1-8 you've adressed the bottom of the order need. Considering your 8 spot would be a guy who last year went off for about a 300/30 season, I'd take that.

And in regards to the cash...if you were to ship one of the starters for Ramirez and cash you'd be looking at a couple million change. Figure the drop off from the couple million no longer spent on Pods and it's about a 2-3 million a year change in payroll. Hardly anything that would hamstring them from going after a Roberts or Catalanatto or someone else who gets on at a nice clip to lead off.Manny Ramirez is due $18M in 2007 and $20M in 2008. No current Sox starter makes more than $10M (net). That difference is more than "a couple million". With the raises that are due to various players, you've pretty much blown the budget on one guy. Nothing left for bullpen help and nothing left for a leadoff hitter.

guillen4life13
11-14-2006, 05:13 PM
Only way I see the Sox involved in a Manny deal is if they are a bridge in a 3 way trade, where they have what the Sawx want and the Sawx eat some of manny's salary, and some other team who has what the Sox want, wants Manny.


I might have confused myself writing that.

Ol' No. 2
11-14-2006, 05:25 PM
Many people would say they'd like to see "'Sweet Swing' Uribe" AND Pods replaced. Although, I know you like Scotty, I wouldn't mind seeing LF and SS upgraded.

Also, it isn't relevant to compare Arod and Ramirez defensively as they play different positions:

Defense:
Pods: Bad
Ramirez: Bad

At least Manny has a functional arm. I'm not sure if Scotty has one of those.

Another point: Manny makes it easier to deal another young outfielder if KW really wanted... Thus, filling another hole (Leadoff SS, bulpen, etc.)I'd like to see both positions upgraded, too. I don't particularly LIKE Podsednik...I just don't think it's going to be as easy to find a better leadoff hitter as people seem to think.

Here, in a nutshell, is why I don't like trading for Manny Ramirez. The Sox have four main needs:

1. bullpen help
2. a better leadoff hitter
3. a CF that can hit
4. a SS that dan hit

They have a starting pitcher to spare, which is their biggest bargaining chip to satisfy those four needs and they can probably take on a little payroll. Trading that pitcher for Manny Ramirez adds $8M to the payroll AND you've used up your best bargaining chip...without satisfying A SINGLE ONE of those four needs. How are they going to get the things they really need if they blow the whole wad on Manny Ramirez? At least the Rodriguez trade was payroll-neutral and satisfied one of those needs.

NardiWasHere
11-14-2006, 05:43 PM
I'd like to see both positions upgraded, too. I don't particularly LIKE Podsednik...I just don't think it's going to be as easy to find a better leadoff hitter as people seem to think.

Here, in a nutshell, is why I don't like trading for Manny Ramirez. The Sox have four main needs:

1. bullpen help
2. a better leadoff hitter
3. a CF that can hit
4. a SS that dan hit

They have a starting pitcher to spare, which is their biggest bargaining chip to satisfy those four needs and they can probably take on a little payroll. Trading that pitcher for Manny Ramirez adds $8M to the payroll AND you've used up your best bargaining chip...without satisfying A SINGLE ONE of those four needs. How are they going to get the things they really need if they blow the whole wad on Manny Ramirez? At least the Rodriguez trade was payroll-neutral and satisfied one of those needs.

Understood. That's completely valid and it make sense. In fact I actually agree with it. I might have just been practicing in a little sophistry/playing the devil's advocate to tell you the truth:D:.... I mean, its just a hypothetical anyway... If one were to argue against a Manny deal, this is the way to do it. Not the whole, "He isn't a grinder, we need to recreate the 2005 team exactly" mentality.... That is probably what made me argue on the side I did.

Ol' No. 2
11-14-2006, 05:49 PM
Understood. That's completely valid and it make sense. In fact I actually agree with it. I might have just been practicing in a little sophistry/playing the devil's advocate to tell you the truth:D:.... I mean, its just a hypothetical anyway... If one were to argue against a Manny deal, this is the way to do it. Not the whole, "He isn't a grinder, we need to recreate the 2005 team exactly" mentality.... That is probably what made me argue on the side I did.I don't care how good of a hitter he is, Manny Ramirez is a headcase and he'll always be a headcase. Why do you think Boston has tried twice to get rid of him? I see no reason to think that Ozzie Guillen has any sort of magic wand to turn him into a model player.

So not only do the Sox not need him, I don't want him.

CLR01
11-14-2006, 05:57 PM
You are so right. Thank goodness he took the 2004 season off or the Red Sox never would have won the World Series.

I enjoyed watching Ramirez and Ortiz slug the Red Sox to a first round ass whooping in 2005 and an early tee time in 2006. I guess they were short one more bat. :rolleyes:

Sox Fan 35
11-14-2006, 07:09 PM
I enjoyed watching Ramirez and Ortiz slug the Red Sox to a first round ass whooping in 2005 and an early tee time in 2006. I guess they were short one more bat. :rolleyes:

I agree. Why should we tie up so much money in Manny when he dosen't fill any of our major needs?

eastchicagosoxfan
11-14-2006, 07:14 PM
Manny doesn't pitch, plain and simple. The Sox had plenty of offense last season, a heck of a lot more than in 2005, and it got nothing. Ol' No. 2, summed it up well for me, Manny doesn't address any need directly.

A. Cavatica
11-14-2006, 09:09 PM
[Youkilis is] Not exactly a prototypical leadoff guy. Crisp would suit that role more, especially for a monetary comparison.

Can we agree that on-base percentage is the most important trait of a "prototypical leadoff guy", followed by speed?

Youkilis has a career .379 OBP. Podsednik's is .342. Crisp's is .329.

If you like Crisp's game, you might as well hang on to Podsednik.

NardiWasHere
11-14-2006, 09:26 PM
I don't care how good of a hitter he is, Manny Ramirez is a headcase and he'll always be a headcase. Why do you think Boston has tried twice to get rid of him? I see no reason to think that Ozzie Guillen has any sort of magic wand to turn him into a model player.

So not only do the Sox not need him, I don't want him.

Ozzie doesn't have a magic wand, your're right. If Manny came here, he wouldn't change... anyone who thinks that is kidding themselves.

On the other hand (and maybe I'm wrong here), I draw a distinction between a guy like Manny and guys like Bonds, TO, Artest, and other truly disruptive guys.

Like I've said earlier in the thread and in other threads, Manny just seems historically stupid. He's a goofball. He pees in between pitches inside little closets. Who hasn't?

I guess what I'm trying to say is that he isn't universally disliked. People think he's a moron, but I've never heard of a player destroying his boombox in the clubhouse, or I've never seen Manny really complain about his contract.

He demands a trade or two each year and then forgets about it. He doesn't seem to look like he knows where he is most the time. He lived on top of the Ritz without anyone knowing for a few years and once in a while crashed a wedding in the banquet hall downstairs. He wants to listen to mp3s while in left field.

When has he used HGH, or attack a fan in the stands, or even kick a trainer below the belt (allegedly)?

In conclusion, I could live with him on my favorite team................ Only if he never brings back that horrible blond hair from early last season.

guillen4life13
11-14-2006, 10:07 PM
Ozzie doesn't have a magic wand, your're right. If Manny came here, he wouldn't change... anyone who thinks that is kidding themselves.

On the other hand (and maybe I'm wrong here), I draw a distinction between a guy like Manny and guys like Bonds, TO, Artest, and other truly disruptive guys.

Like I've said earlier in the thread and in other threads, Manny just seems historically stupid. He's a goofball. He pees in between pitches inside little closets. Who hasn't?

I guess what I'm trying to say is that he isn't universally disliked. People think he's a moron, but I've never heard of a player destroying his boombox in the clubhouse, or I've never seen Manny really complain about his contract.

He demands a trade or two each year and then forgets about it. He doesn't seem to look like he knows where he is most the time. He lived on top of the Ritz without anyone knowing for a few years and once in a while crashed a wedding in the banquet hall downstairs. He wants to listen to mp3s while in left field.

When has he used HGH, or attack a fan in the stands, or even kick a trainer below the belt (allegedly)?

In conclusion, I could live with him on my favorite team................ Only if he never brings back that horrible blond hair from early last season.

I really don't think anyone is saying that the biggest problem is his head.

I think that most people here just don't see how Manny fills any of the Sox' major needs, and therefore don't understand what the point would be to bring him here.

Nellie_Fox
11-15-2006, 12:41 AM
You mean 1997, 1998, 2001, 2002, 2003, and 2004 didn't do it for you? :D:Let's not forget 2006. Plenty of hitting, third place.

fquaye149
11-15-2006, 08:05 AM
I enjoyed watching Ramirez and Ortiz slug the Red Sox to a first round ass whooping in 2005 and an early tee time in 2006. I guess they were short one more bat. :rolleyes:

Either that or no good pitching.

Yes, we don't NEED more hitting we NEED pitching, but it's not so easy to just go out and GET good pitching. A good lineup does a lot to mitigate not-so-good pitching

Ol' No. 2
11-15-2006, 10:41 AM
Ozzie doesn't have a magic wand, your're right. If Manny came here, he wouldn't change... anyone who thinks that is kidding themselves.

On the other hand (and maybe I'm wrong here), I draw a distinction between a guy like Manny and guys like Bonds, TO, Artest, and other truly disruptive guys.

Like I've said earlier in the thread and in other threads, Manny just seems historically stupid. He's a goofball. He pees in between pitches inside little closets. Who hasn't?

I guess what I'm trying to say is that he isn't universally disliked. People think he's a moron, but I've never heard of a player destroying his boombox in the clubhouse, or I've never seen Manny really complain about his contract.

He demands a trade or two each year and then forgets about it. He doesn't seem to look like he knows where he is most the time. He lived on top of the Ritz without anyone knowing for a few years and once in a while crashed a wedding in the banquet hall downstairs. He wants to listen to mp3s while in left field.

When has he used HGH, or attack a fan in the stands, or even kick a trainer below the belt (allegedly)?

In conclusion, I could live with him on my favorite team................ Only if he never brings back that horrible blond hair from early last season.Manny just plain quit on the Red Sox last year. That's inexcusable, and I wouldn't want him on my team, no matter what else he brings. There's a reason the Red Sox have tried twice to get rid of him.

CLR01
11-15-2006, 11:57 AM
A good lineup does a lot to mitigate not-so-good pitching


But rarely does it ever do enough. Good pitching may be hard to come by but even mediocre pitching is better than some of the stiffs who threw out of the bullpen last year.

fquaye149
11-15-2006, 07:36 PM
But rarely does it ever do enough. Good pitching may be hard to come by but even mediocre pitching is better than some of the stiffs who threw out of the bullpen last year.

You're absolutely right, but where do these quick fixes come from?

There were no quick fixes from 2004 to 2005...everyone came from the system or was found as an unlikely help in free agency or trades(Hermanson, Jenks)

Our pitchers weren't traded for in the 2004-2005 offseason---they just improved.

We aren't going to fix our starting pitching with personnel moves. It's going to have to come from sleeper pick ups (a la Loaiza, Thornton, Hermy, Jenks in years past) and from our current pitchers getting their heads out of their ass.

Yes, Manny in left will hurt our pitching a decent amount (though I'd argue that Pods was about as brutal last year as you can probably expect Manny to be----get that boy some glasses!) but will more than make up for it with offensive production.

At any rate, I doubt this talk will result in anything more than hot air. Manny's not coming here. Maybe that's a good thing, maybe that's a bad thing. Who knows.

Make no mistake: I do not disagree with you that we need much better pitching this coming year and that is going to be the main determinant of our succes next year

southside rocks
11-15-2006, 07:40 PM
Manny just plain quit on the Red Sox last year. That's inexcusable, and I wouldn't want him on my team, no matter what else he brings. There's a reason the Red Sox have tried twice to get rid of him.

I concur.

And Manny's been asking to be traded since the first year he joined the Red Sox. For a nice look at Manny's style, Manny being Manny, read "Feeding the Monster" by Seth Mnooken, about the 2004 Red Sox. The chapter about Manny will leave a pretty bad taste for any baseball fan. He's no Barry Bonds, true, but he's a 24-carat goldbrick, as my dad used to say.

Ol' No. 2
11-15-2006, 07:53 PM
You're absolutely right, but where do these quick fixes come from?

There were no quick fixes from 2004 to 2005...everyone came from the system or was found as an unlikely help in free agency or trades(Hermanson, Jenks)

Our pitchers weren't traded for in the 2004-2005 offseason---they just improved.

We aren't going to fix our starting pitching with personnel moves. It's going to have to come from sleeper pick ups (a la Loaiza, Thornton, Hermy, Jenks in years past) and from our current pitchers getting their heads out of their ass.

Yes, Manny in left will hurt our pitching a decent amount (though I'd argue that Pods was about as brutal last year as you can probably expect Manny to be----get that boy some glasses!) but will more than make up for it with offensive production.

At any rate, I doubt this talk will result in anything more than hot air. Manny's not coming here. Maybe that's a good thing, maybe that's a bad thing. Who knows.

Make no mistake: I do not disagree with you that we need much better pitching this coming year and that is going to be the main determinant of our succes next yearI don't see Kenny doing major surgery on the starting rotation. The starting rotation is not going to change outside of subtracting one starter and adding McCarthy. Hopefully, last year was an aberration and they'll return to form in 2007.

Bullpens are always somewhat of a crapshoot. Look at the Sox relievers that have been successful and tell me you could have forseen that success.

Jenks - a complete flyer that worked out
Takatsu - one good year, then crapola
Politte - mediocre, great, then crapola
Thornton - part of a crap-for-crap trade that worked out

And on and on...Cotts, Marte, all guys who were completely unpredictable going into the season. For all we know, Thornton will turn back into a pumpkin next year. Middle relievers are typically the weakest pitchers on the team and most subject to variability. If they have a good year the GM looks like a genius.

Ultimately, you have to either get really lucky, or you have to make adjustments mid-season, which means you need to hold back a few prospects that you can use as bargaining chips to get relief help along the way.

jabrch
11-15-2006, 08:49 PM
This is one of the best hitters in the game. I can't believe the dislike for him.

eastchicagosoxfan
11-15-2006, 09:07 PM
This is one of the best hitters in the game. I can't believe the dislike for him.

I don't dislike him, but hitting doesn't win titles. Pitching and defense do, along with situational hitting.

For example, some well beaten stats, that bear repeating:

In 2005 the Sox scored 741 runs, which was 9th in the league.

In 2006 the scored 868 runs, good for third in the league.

In 2005 the Sox gave up 645 runs, good for 3rd in the league, 592 were earned.

In 2006 the Sox gave up 794 runs good for 10th in the league, 743 were earned.

Manny can't pitch. He can't start, he can't be a middle reliever, he can't be a set-up man, nor is he a closer. Pitching and defense. Manny offers neither of those qualities. The Sox have plenty of guys that can hit.

samram
11-15-2006, 09:12 PM
I don't dislike him, but hitting doesn't win titles. Pitching and defense do, along with situational hitting.

For example, some well beaten stats, that bear repeating:

In 2005 the Sox scored 741 runs, which was 9th in the league.

In 2006 the scored 868 runs, good for third in the league.

In 2005 the Sox gave up 645 runs, 592 were earned.

In 2006 the Sox gave up 794 runs, 743 were earned.

Manny can't pitch. He can't start, he can't be a middle reliever, he can't be a set-up man, nor is he a closer. Pitching and defense. Manny offers neither of those qualities. The Sox have plenty of guys that can hit.

All true, but why can't both LF and the pitching be addressed? I can think of several guys I would rather have, but it's not as if acquiring Manny necessarily precludes other moves.

A. Cavatica
11-15-2006, 09:20 PM
All true, but why can't both LF and the pitching be addressed? I can think of several guys I would rather have, but it's not as if acquiring Manny necessarily precludes other moves.

You might be able to get Boston to pick up a couple million off his deal, but you also have to get them to take a big contract (Vazquez or Konerko) in return, and even then you're adding $4-8 million year in payroll. So yes, acquiring Manny does preclude other moves.

eastchicagosoxfan
11-15-2006, 09:24 PM
All true, but why can't both LF and the pitching be addressed? I can think of several guys I would rather have, but it's not as if acquiring Manny necessarily precludes other moves.
I really think the team becomes too stationary then, and it's not the type of team that Ozzie manages best ( the last phrase is frought with peril ). The only speed on the team is in center. The team lacks diversity. As other posters have indictcated it's that same station-to-station team the Sox had in th early 2000's. I believe the Sox need to put their best efforts, and resources, into improving the pitching and defense. Adding another big bat should be an afterthought. The goal has to be:
Good pitching beats good hitting.
Get better pitching, even at the expense of hitting.
If the pitching is vastly improved, and Manny is out there for a song, take a look.

samram
11-15-2006, 09:29 PM
You might be able to get Boston to pick up a couple million off his deal, but you also have to get them to take a big contract (Vazquez or Konerko) in return, and even then you're adding $4-8 million year in payroll. So yes, acquiring Manny does preclude other moves.

That assumes the Sox won't significantly increase payroll, which we don't know. That's why I said it doesn't necessarily preclude other moves.

samram
11-15-2006, 09:32 PM
I really think the team becomes too stationary then, and it's not the type of team that Ozzie manages best ( the last phrase is frought with peril ). The only speed on the team is in center. The team lacks diversity. As other posters have indictcated it's that same station-to-station team the Sox had in th early 2000's. I believe the Sox need to put their best efforts, and resources, into improving the pitching and defense. Adding another big bat should be an afterthought. The goal has to be:
Good pitching beats good hitting.
Get better pitching, even at the expense of hitting.
If the pitching is vastly improved, and Manny is out there for a song, take a look.

I agree he shouldn't be near first priority, if a priority at all. My original point is that adding him doesn't make the team worse- it makes it better because he replaces a guy who is bad. However, like I said, if you can get Crawford or Ichiro to play LF instead, that would be better because they add needed attributes to the team.

The bullpen is going to be addressed, no matter who is added on the offensive side.

A. Cavatica
11-15-2006, 10:40 PM
That assumes the Sox won't significantly increase payroll, which we don't know. That's why I said it doesn't necessarily preclude other moves.

Regardless of what the payroll is, money spent on Manny is money that can't be spent on other players. But I think we understand each other's points.

oeo
11-15-2006, 10:51 PM
All true, but why can't both LF and the pitching be addressed? I can think of several guys I would rather have, but it's not as if acquiring Manny necessarily precludes other moves.

Kenny better be pretty damn sure that he's still going to get bullpen help and a leadoff hitter that can play SS.

It's just not worth what we'd have to give up. I haven't seen anything mentioned about what it would take, but I would imagine McCarthy would be part of the deal. And there we go, we're opening up even more holes for a guy that is not even of need.

Not worth it, not going to happen, and I still do not understand why people want it to happen.