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Fenway
11-06-2006, 04:29 PM
The bidding has started for Matsuzaka and Scott Boras is behind the curtain. Everyone expects the Yankees to make a big bid ( Red Sox, Mets as well ) but some in the NY media think the fix is in as Boras has told a team to bid high and then work out a private settlement with the Seibu owners.

Bigger question is just how good is he?

http://cbs.sportsline.com/columns/story/9780830

ilsox7
11-06-2006, 04:41 PM
I saw an article somewhere that proposed a pretty cool idea given the absurdity of the Japanese posting system. Say a team like the O's or Cubs make a $50MM bid. They win the exclusive negotiating rights with the player. Then they make a 7 year contract offer at $2MM per year. Total cost over 7 years is $64MM. If the guy doesn't take it, he has to go back to Japan for a year. At worst, it might expose the posting system. At best, a team gets a supposed #1 or #2 pitcher for a fairly reasonable price.

ondafarm
11-06-2006, 09:50 PM
I saw an article somewhere that proposed a pretty cool idea given the absurdity of the Japanese posting system. Say a team like the O's or Cubs make a $50MM bid. They win the exclusive negotiating rights with the player. Then they make a 7 year contract offer at $2MM per year. Total cost over 7 years is $64MM. If the guy doesn't take it, he has to go back to Japan for a year. At worst, it might expose the posting system. At best, a team gets a supposed #1 or #2 pitcher for a fairly reasonable price.

This would probably anger Boras and he would be able to come up with a significant amount of retribution against the Cubs or Orioles. If I was Matsuzaka, that is the reason I would employ Boras.

I also doubt Matsuzaka would be a starting pitcher, probably more likely a closer.

NardiWasHere
11-06-2006, 09:59 PM
I also doubt Matsuzaka would be a starting pitcher, probably more likely a closer.

What makes you think that? Is he not equipped for the innings or would you think his game is better suited for the bullpen? Has there been any comments by anyone about this, or is just your analysis?

chaerulez
11-06-2006, 10:20 PM
I saw an article somewhere that proposed a pretty cool idea given the absurdity of the Japanese posting system. Say a team like the O's or Cubs make a $50MM bid. They win the exclusive negotiating rights with the player. Then they make a 7 year contract offer at $2MM per year. Total cost over 7 years is $64MM. If the guy doesn't take it, he has to go back to Japan for a year. At worst, it might expose the posting system. At best, a team gets a supposed #1 or #2 pitcher for a fairly reasonable price.

Winning the bid only gives you the right to get a contract done in 30 days. It would do nothing but just delay the whole system, which I doubt MLB would allow. The posting money goes to team not the player anyway so Boras and Matsuzaka could probably care less how much teams bids, just the final contract.

What makes you think that? Is he not equipped for the innings or would you think his game is better suited for the bullpen? Has there been any comments by anyone about this, or is just your analysis?

I don't know where that analysis comes from. It's based off nothing.

ondafarm
11-06-2006, 10:20 PM
What makes you think that? Is he not equipped for the innings or would you think his game is better suited for the bullpen? Has there been any comments by anyone about this, or is just your analysis?


Because he's only thrown more than 200 innings twice in his career. Each of those years he had relatively mediocre records and the season after that was subpar. He also was used as a closer by Sadaharu Oh, manager of Japan's champion WBC team.

ondafarm
11-06-2006, 10:22 PM
I don't know where that analysis comes from. It's based off nothing.

Correct again, moosebreath.

chaerulez
11-06-2006, 10:30 PM
Because he's only thrown more than 200 innings twice in his career. Each of those years he had relatively mediocre records and the season after that was subpar. He also was used as a closer by Sadaharu Oh, manager of Japan's champion WBC team.

In Japan, they only play I believe 144 games. Matsuzaka once threw 250 pitches in a high school game and then pitched again the next day. And uh, he started all three games he pitched in the WBC.

chaerulez
11-06-2006, 10:32 PM
Correct again, moosebreath.

Seems like I was, as I just proved in my previous post you don't know what your talking about (in regards to the 200 IP thing, and basically implying he's frail), and the other "fact" you presented was made up (the WBC thing). I guess this "moosebreath" (whatever that means), knows a bit more than you.

Edit: Also you said above that every year he pitched at least 200 innings and the year after they were just average at best. Well your wrong about that too.

http://www.japanesebaseball.com/players/player.jsp?PlayerID=1104

2001 15-15 3.60 ERA 240 1/3 IP (okay, I'll give you that)
2002 6-2 3.68 ERA 73 1/3 IP (seems like it was his only injury plagued year still 78 K's to 15 BB's that year sure looks promising)
2005 14-13 2.30 ERA 215 IP (record might not be impressive, but that ERA sure is)
2006 17-5 2.13 ERA 186 1/3 IP (I don't know, I think that stat line would've won the Cy Young easily in the NL this year, regardless you don't see many seasons like that)

ilsox7
11-06-2006, 10:40 PM
Winning the bid only gives you the right to get a contract done in 30 days. It would do nothing but just delay the whole system, which I doubt MLB would allow. The posting money goes to team not the player anyway so Boras and Matsuzaka could probably care less how much teams bids, just the final contract.



Delaying the system is the whole point. As far as I've read, whoever wins the bidding process gets exclusive negotiating rights for 30 days. If no deal is agreed upon, then he cannot come to MLB this year. The bid money goes bck to the MLB team, and they repeat the whole process next year. For a team like the O's, they get what is supposedly a great pitcher for 7 years and $64MM. The pitcher gets scrwed out of a lot of money. If he refuses the contract, the O's have effectively blocked the Yankees and Red Sox from getting the guy. Seems like a good plan to me.

I want Mags back
11-06-2006, 10:43 PM
I saw an article somewhere that proposed a pretty cool idea given the absurdity of the Japanese posting system. Say a team like the O's or Cubs make a $50MM bid. They win the exclusive negotiating rights with the player. Then they make a 7 year contract offer at $2MM per year. Total cost over 7 years is $64MM. If the guy doesn't take it, he has to go back to Japan for a year. At worst, it might expose the posting system. At best, a team gets a supposed #1 or #2 pitcher for a fairly reasonable price.
sounds kinda like what they did in "the Scout"

chaerulez
11-06-2006, 10:49 PM
Delaying the system is the whole point. As far as I've read, whoever wins the bidding process gets exclusive negotiating rights for 30 days. If no deal is agreed upon, then he cannot come to MLB this year. The bid money goes bck to the MLB team, and they repeat the whole process next year. For a team like the O's, they get what is supposedly a great pitcher for 7 years and $64MM. The pitcher gets scrwed out of a lot of money. If he refuses the contract, the O's have effectively blocked the Yankees and Red Sox from getting the guy. Seems like a good plan to me.

It was my understanding that new bids would just start 30 days later. I might've understood it wrong. However, I think his Seibu Lions contract ends after next year, so for some reason if it doesn't get done this year, next year he'll just be on the free agent market. With the globalization of sports from this country (baseball and basketball) leagues should just form transfer systems like they have for soccer. Would just make the entire process easier.

ilsox7
11-06-2006, 11:10 PM
With the globalization of sports from this country (baseball and basketball) leagues should just form transfer systems like they have for soccer. Would just make the entire process easier.

:thumbsup:

ondafarm
11-06-2006, 11:10 PM
Seems like I was, as I just proved in my previous post you don't know what your talking about (in regards to the 200 IP thing, and basically implying he's frail), and the other "fact" you presented was made up (the WBC thing). I guess this "moosebreath" (whatever that means), knows a bit more than you.

Edit: Also you said above that every year he pitched at least 200 innings and the year after they were just average at best. Well your wrong about that too.

http://www.japanesebaseball.com/players/player.jsp?PlayerID=1104

2001 15-15 3.60 ERA 240 1/3 IP (okay, I'll give you that)
2002 6-2 3.68 ERA 73 1/3 IP (seems like it was his only injury plagued year still 78 K's to 15 BB's that year sure looks promising)
2005 14-13 2.30 ERA 215 IP (record might not be impressive, but that ERA sure is)
2006 17-5 2.13 ERA 186 1/3 IP (I don't know, I think that stat line would've won the Cy Young easily in the NL this year, regardless you don't see many seasons like that)


Look, if you really want to push this. I spoke to Matsuzaka on March 12th, while watching the USA-Japan baseball game at the big A. We didn't talk long, but I did have a significant chance to talk to several reporters there. I did ask them about Matsuzaka pitching and they all said Oh reccomended him as a closer and not a starter. The longer season would 'exhaust' him. I didn't get a chance after the game to confirm this with Oh, but the reporters in the press box are pretty reliable. The Pacific League, where Seibu plays, is typically considered the lesser of the two leagues.

Grzegorz
11-07-2006, 05:56 AM
Winning the bid only gives you the right to get a contract done in 30 days. It would do nothing but just delay the whole system, which I doubt MLB would allow. The posting money goes to team not the player anyway so Boras and Matsuzaka could probably care less how much teams bids, just the final contract.



I don't know where that analysis comes from. It's based off nothing.

If the "winner" gets a thirty day window to sign the player or lose the posting to the team the player is under contract with?

This "system" can be easily manipulated.

TheKittle
11-08-2006, 03:26 PM
Aside from Nomo, 95-97, all Japanese STARTERS have not made an impact in the majors.

Irabu was a bust.

Ishii is nothing special a 3-4 starter at best.

Most Japanese pitchers who have done well in the majors have been relievers.

OEO Magglio
11-08-2006, 11:52 PM
Aside from Nomo, 95-97, all Japanese STARTERS have not made an impact in the majors.

Irabu was a bust.

Ishii is nothing special a 3-4 starter at best.

Most Japanese pitchers who have done well in the majors have been relievers.
Mats will be different, he's the real deal.

Fenway
11-09-2006, 12:12 AM
WFAN is reporting that some team bid 42.5 Million for the rights :o:

If that is true it has to be either the Yankees or the Mets.

ondafarm
11-09-2006, 12:38 AM
WFAN is reporting that some team bid 42.5 Million for the rights :o:

If that is true it has to be either the Yankees or the Mets.


And the Yankee$ are complaining that they lost money this season.

OEO Magglio
11-09-2006, 12:59 AM
WFAN is reporting that some team bid 42.5 Million for the rights :o:

If that is true it has to be either the Yankees or the Mets.
Jesus.

SoxSpeed22
11-09-2006, 01:20 AM
Jesus.We knew this was coming, all of us. I am, however interested in Hideki Okajima, a lefty reliever with a nasty curve.

champagne030
11-09-2006, 01:06 PM
Delaying the system is the whole point. As far as I've read, whoever wins the bidding process gets exclusive negotiating rights for 30 days. If no deal is agreed upon, then he cannot come to MLB this year. The bid money goes bck to the MLB team, and they repeat the whole process next year. For a team like the O's, they get what is supposedly a great pitcher for 7 years and $64MM. The pitcher gets scrwed out of a lot of money. If he refuses the contract, the O's have effectively blocked the Yankees and Red Sox from getting the guy. Seems like a good plan to me.

Prevent them from getting him this season. He'll be a free agent after this season and there will not be a posting fee required for him next year. Bora$$ will take him to the highest bidder (Yankmees and Blowsawx).

The risk the O's (or whoever) take by offering a huge posting fee just to block would be the bad PR it would create for any potential free agent from Japan signing with them.

Gammons Peter
11-09-2006, 01:22 PM
Was yesterday the deadline for posting on the other "lesser" players??

Flight #24
11-09-2006, 04:15 PM
FWIW, I heard 2 reports:

1) The Angels are the high bidder (no amount given)
2) The Mets are the high bidder with a $24M bid

If true, I'd much prefer the Angels for a couple of reasons.
1) I think the Mets are the ideal trade partner for the Sox to send a starter for prospects and/or relief help.
2) I think the Angels would ordinarily be significant contenders to trade for Manny or ARod, and while the addition of Matsuzaka would give them a spare pitcher (and a potentially dominant rotation with Weaver, Escobar, Lackey, Santana, Colon), the cost of a $20+M bid and a Boras contract would have to impact their ability to absorb $16-20M salary.

Fenway
11-09-2006, 04:32 PM
The board of directors of the Lions will meet Friday morning to decide so we may hear something Thursday night our time.

WFAN is still sticking to their story about the bid.

ondafarm
11-10-2006, 01:39 AM
We knew this was coming, all of us. I am, however interested in Hideki Okajima, a lefty reliever with a nasty curve.


I saw this kid pitch. His curve would go around corners and he throws a couple of different curves. His control is very solid. Unfortunately, his fastball doesn't really break many speed limits and he'd get lit up if he came here. Even a great curve thrown every time will get adjusted to.

thedudeabides
11-10-2006, 01:04 PM
FWIW, I heard 2 reports:

1) The Angels are the high bidder (no amount given)
2) The Mets are the high bidder with a $24M bid

If true, I'd much prefer the Angels for a couple of reasons.
1) I think the Mets are the ideal trade partner for the Sox to send a starter for prospects and/or relief help.
2) I think the Angels would ordinarily be significant contenders to trade for Manny or ARod, and while the addition of Matsuzaka would give them a spare pitcher (and a potentially dominant rotation with Weaver, Escobar, Lackey, Santana, Colon), the cost of a $20+M bid and a Boras contract would have to impact their ability to absorb $16-20M salary.

Buster Olney is reporting the Red Sox won the bid by far. Their bid is believed to be over $40 million. :o:

chaerulez
11-10-2006, 01:06 PM
Buster Olney is reporting the Red Sox won the bid by far. Their bid is believed to be over $40 million. :o:

If that is true, they must be desperate. Schilling is old and Beckett had a bad year, so I'd be desperate if I were them too.

Fenway
11-10-2006, 01:38 PM
Buster Olney is reporting the Red Sox won the bid by far. Their bid is believed to be over $40 million. :o:

WEEI's Dale Arnold says he talked to Lucchino and Olney's report is accurate.:o:

The Red Sox are desperate......

Fenway
11-10-2006, 02:08 PM
posters on nyyfans.com are grumbling about the Red Sox throwing money around to prevent the Yankees from getting players :tongue:

http://forums.nyyfans.com/showthread.php?p=3725351

SABRSox
11-10-2006, 02:22 PM
This guy is going to become one of the biggest busts ever. He'd have to be nothing less than Cy Young reborn to warrant $42.5 million for negotiation rights to make it worthwhile.

And I thought Epstein was a moneyball guy.

palehozenychicty
11-10-2006, 02:27 PM
If that is true, they must be desperate. Schilling is old and Beckett had a bad year, so I'd be desperate if I were them too.

They look like a team that could fall flat on their face again.

spiffie
11-10-2006, 02:40 PM
This guy is going to become one of the biggest busts ever. He'd have to be nothing less than Cy Young reborn to warrant $42.5 million for negotiation rights to make it worthwhile.

And I thought Epstein was a moneyball guy.
How do you define worthwhile? If you have enough revenue to support a $150 million dollar payroll, and Matsuzaka steps in as a #1 pitcher, wins 18 games, and brings your team to the World Series, is it worthwhile? The Red Sox have enough cash to fill their other holes while paying this cash, if they so choose. For them this could be a good decision. For a team like the Sox, who, though well-off, are certainly not on par with the Big Three for payroll, this would be using too many of your resources. But if you have the cash, and you think he's going to be a #1 pitcher for the rest of the decade, who cares if you overpay what people think he should be worth?

spiffie
11-10-2006, 02:44 PM
If that is true, they must be desperate. Schilling is old and Beckett had a bad year, so I'd be desperate if I were them too.
Schilling 2006: 15-7, 31 starts, 204 IP, 3.97 ERA, 1.21 WHIP, 116 ERA+ 13th in the AL in ERA.

No reason he can't go another couple of years.

munchman33
11-10-2006, 02:56 PM
Schilling 2006: 15-7, 31 starts, 204 IP, 3.97 ERA, 1.21 WHIP, 116 ERA+ 13th in the AL in ERA.

No reason he can't go another couple of years.

Guys pitching that late in their career don't see a slight drop over time. It's usually an immediate drop that tells them they simply can't do this anymore. With the injury issues he's had recently, that time is probably pretty close.

Fenway
11-10-2006, 03:00 PM
Guys pitching that late in their career don't see a slight drop over time. It's usually an immediate drop that tells them they simply can't do this anymore. With the injury issues he's had recently, that time is probably pretty close.

Schilling has said over and over 2007 is it. He wants to concentrate on his new gaming company and explore running for political office in Arizona.

spiffie
11-10-2006, 03:04 PM
Guys pitching that late in their career don't see a slight drop over time. It's usually an immediate drop that tells them they simply can't do this anymore. With the injury issues he's had recently, that time is probably pretty close.
If Schilling holds true to what Fenway said then its all moot, and I agree about the dropoff. But older pitchers are showing that the ceiling can be the early 40's these days. We may never know, but I don't see any reason why he couldn't be effective through 2009 or so. Or he could go 5-16 next year. I just know if I'm the Red Sox I'm more worried about Beckett than Schilling for next year.

Flight #24
11-10-2006, 03:04 PM
Just for kicks, let's say he gets a 3-yr, $36M deal (which seems in the ballpark and maybe even low given the numbers being thrown around), then if the posting fee is $40M, his total cost to the Red Sox for 3 years becomes $76M or an average cost/yr of just above $25M (ignoring the luxury tax issues).

With $25M, you could probably go get yourself a Zito and something between a Suppan-esque innings-eater and maybe a Schmidt (i.e. maybe Zito at $14M and Schmidt at $12 given the age difference). Or one of those and a pretty good bat. Heck - if I were Theo, I'd make Ortiz play 1B, sign Thomas for say $7M/yr, Sign Zito for $14M/yr, and plug the remaining $4-5M into the bullpen by signing say Villone & Speier. Would you rather have Matsuzaka or all of that, especially given the variety of needs the BloSox have?

Now I know luxury tax issues come into play in the latter more than the former and that there's the whole "Far East revenues" aspect of things that offset, but those would have to be pretty significant to outweigh the sheer cost of this guy, of course assuming the rumors on the fee are true.

schmitty9800
11-10-2006, 03:07 PM
Now I know luxury tax issues come into play in the latter more than the former and that there's the whole "Far East revenues" aspect of things that offset, but those would have to be pretty significant to outweigh the sheer cost of this guy, of course assuming the rumors on the fee are true.
Those revenues are pretty damn significant. There's a reason why Seattle won't ever deal Ichiro.

spiffie
11-10-2006, 03:09 PM
Just for kicks, let's say he gets a 3-yr, $36M deal (which seems in the ballpark and maybe even low given the numbers being thrown around), then if the posting fee is $40M, his total cost to the Red Sox for 3 years becomes $76M or an average cost/yr of just above $25M (ignoring the luxury tax issues).

With $25M, you could probably go get yourself a Zito and something between a Suppan-esque innings-eater and maybe a Schmidt (i.e. maybe Zito at $14M and Schmidt at $12 given the age difference). Or one of those and a pretty good bat. Heck - if I were Theo, I'd make Ortiz play 1B, sign Thomas for say $7M/yr, Sign Zito for $14M/yr, and plug the remaining $4-5M into the bullpen by signing say Villone & Speier. Would you rather have Matsuzaka or all of that, especially given the variety of needs the BloSox have?

Now I know luxury tax issues come into play in the latter more than the former and that there's the whole "Far East revenues" aspect of things that offset, but those would have to be pretty significant to outweigh the sheer cost of this guy, of course assuming the rumors on the fee are true.
One thought...maybe this is the year they dump Ramirez, and get rid of his huge salary, which would pretty much free up room to make that big a signing for Matsuzaka and do the other things you mentioned.

Kogs35
11-10-2006, 03:42 PM
olney thinks the redsox won the bidding

Fenway
11-10-2006, 03:49 PM
from the Boston Globe

There's growing steam behind a report by ESPN's Buster Olney that the Red Sox might have submitted the top bid for Seibu Lions righthander Daisuke Matsuzaka.

One major league source indicated, "That wouldn't surprise me one bit. I have heard the Red Sox were very competitive. It would be a strike against the Yankees, who have been considered the front-runner, and it show Red Sox fans the team is serious about rebuilding what happened last season."

http://www.boston.com/sports/baseball/redsox/extras/extra_bases/

SABRSox
11-10-2006, 04:14 PM
I'm sorry, for a guy that hasn't pitched 1 inning in MLB, there is no way he's worth around $25mil a year average after all the posting bid and salary negotations. In fact, I'll go as far to say that there is NO pitcher in MLB worth that money.

spiffie
11-10-2006, 04:21 PM
I'm sorry, for a guy that hasn't pitched 1 inning in MLB, there is no way he's worth around $25mil a year average after all the posting bid and salary negotations. In fact, I'll go as far to say that there is NO pitcher in MLB worth that money.
I don't know. If someone said I could either spend $25 million on Javy Vazquez and Freddy Garcia, or I could spend $25 million on Johan Santana and Brandon McCarthy, I would take the latter even though Johan would be getting 24.5 or so of that cash.

SABRSox
11-10-2006, 04:31 PM
I don't know. If someone said I could either spend $25 million on Javy Vazquez and Freddy Garcia, or I could spend $25 million on Johan Santana and Brandon McCarthy, I would take the latter even though Johan would be getting 24.5 or so of that cash.

You re-framing the question. The question isn't if 2 players are worth $25 mil, and one guy gets the bulk of that. The question is if 1 guy alone is worth $25 mil. My belief, especially for a pitcher, is no. Certainly not a pitcher with zero MLB experience.

That gyroball could have the same effect and Shingo's frisbee. As in you can put it on the board...

spiffie
11-10-2006, 04:40 PM
You re-framing the question. The question isn't if 2 players are worth $25 mil, and one guy gets the bulk of that. The question is if 1 guy alone is worth $25 mil. My belief, especially for a pitcher, is no. Certainly not a pitcher with zero MLB experience.

That gyroball could have the same effect and Shingo's frisbee. As in you can put it on the board...
2 things:

-You said no pitcher was worth $25 million. I simply stated that there are cases where, if my team was structured in a certain way, I would gladly pay that to someone. At no point did I say that I think Matsuzaka is "worth" $25 million if you mean worth to be that he is twice as good as any other pitcher (since outside of Clemens or Johnson I can't think of anyone earning much more than $13 million a year).

-Matsuzaka doesn't throw the gyroball. He has said he has fooled around with it, but that it's not part of his arsenal.

SABRSox
11-10-2006, 04:42 PM
2 things:

-You said no pitcher was worth $25 million. I simply stated that there are cases where, if my team was structured in a certain way, I would gladly pay that to someone. At no point did I say that I think Matsuzaka is "worth" $25 million if you mean worth to be that he is twice as good as any other pitcher (since outside of Clemens or Johnson I can't think of anyone earning much more than $13 million a year).

-Matsuzaka doesn't throw the gyroball. He has said he has fooled around with it, but that it's not part of his arsenal.

Wait a minute, are you:
:borass:

spiffie
11-10-2006, 04:52 PM
Wait a minute, are you:
:borass:
If I were He Who Must Not Be Named don't you think Kenny Williams would have sensed my presence and shut down the internet by now?

I do think though that people put too much emphasis on how much a player is "worth" as opposed to how much value that money spent will garner for your team. If I have 25 million to spend, and I can either spend it on 2 average or slightly above average veterans, or on 1 superstud and 1 young cheap prospect, I'd rather "overspend" on the stud and take my chances than to pay the same money for almost certainly average production.

Flight #24
11-10-2006, 05:04 PM
If I were He Who Must Not Be Named don't you think Kenny Williams would have sensed my presence and shut down the internet by now?

I do think though that people put too much emphasis on how much a player is "worth" as opposed to how much value that money spent will garner for your team. If I have 25 million to spend, and I can either spend it on 2 average or slightly above average veterans, or on 1 superstud and 1 young cheap prospect, I'd rather "overspend" on the stud and take my chances than to pay the same money for almost certainly average production.

The whole big ginormous caveat to all of this is whether or not this guy is indeed a stud. In the Santana example, you're getting about as much of a sure thing as you can, plus you have McCarthy ready to go. In the Red Sox case, there are a ton of question marks about this guy, and they don't have a McCarthy ready to go (i.e. their version, Papelbon, is already slotted into the rotation and they still have a couple of holes left).

The one thing that could be a huge factor for them is if this indeed opens up the Far East market. I'm not sure about how those type of revenues are shared or what, but if this guy is hugely popular and that makes the Red Sox hugely popular over there, that could translate into a lot of $$$, even after his contract ends and if he leaves for another team.

palehozenychicty
11-10-2006, 05:08 PM
One thing that people are forgetting is that he may strongarm the sawx into overpaying for him beyond the ridiculous negotiation fees. Boston has traditionally not been a place that players love to play in, and for a guy that is unfamiliar with customs, etc., he may return to Seibu and try again next year. Either way, it will be interesting.

Fenway
11-11-2006, 01:09 PM
But other baseball officials, including Yankee GM Brian Cashman, weren't so sure Matsuzaka is Boston-bound. And a Red Sox source last night called the report "premature."


"I don't think anyone knows anything for certain," Cashman said, adding that he hadn't heard anything official from Major League Baseball

http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseball/story/470336p-395858c.html

Fenway
11-13-2006, 01:01 PM
NAPLES, Fla. -- The assembled Japanese media here at the annual general managers' meetings have been told this morning that the Seibu Lions' board of directors will meet tonight (Tuesday morning in Japan) to mull over the bids submitted by major league teams to earn the negotiating rights to coveted righthander Daisuke Matsuzaka.

In fact, the Lions plan to hold a press conference at 8 p.m. Eastern, though they did not disclose what they were announcing. Major league baseball spokesman Patrick Courtney said that MLB would announce the decision as soon as it was made known to them.

Matsuzaka's agent, Scott Boras, was also due here sometime today

http://www.boston.com/sports/baseball/redsox/extras/extra_bases/

chisoxmike
11-13-2006, 01:24 PM
Is it just me, or does anybody want him to blow on a MLB team just to spite all the hype and overblown **** about him? I'm not saying he's a bad pitcher or anything, but I think its kind of outragous the "procedure" teams have to go through just to talk to a guy that may or may not sign with them. :dunno:

Fenway
11-13-2006, 01:30 PM
Is it just me, or does anybody want him to blow on a MLB team just to spite all the hype and overblown **** about him? I'm not saying he's a bad pitcher or anything, but I think its kind of outragous the "procedure" teams have to go through just to talk to a guy that may or may not sign with them. :dunno:

the whole system smells. It appears the Red Sox can make a lot of their money back simply by offering NESN games to Japanese Television. Mariners make a killing doing this. For some reason MLB revenue sharing rules to not apply to international TV.

Fenway
11-13-2006, 04:07 PM
Boston is going nuts waiting for the announcement - talk radio is all baseball

lastest rumors

ESPN's Peter Gammons reports the Sox' winning bid was $42 million and far outbid the next best bidder, while XM radio "Baseball This Morning" co-host Orestes Destrade is saying "From my reliable sources it is the Boston Red Sox [who have the highest bid, but the bid] is not $38 million, it is not $45 million, it is guaranteed over $50 million for the rights" to negotiate with Matsuzaka's agent Scott Boras."

http://www.boston.com/sports/baseball/redsox/extras/extra_bases/


The Red Sox bid $42 million for the right to negotiate with prized Japanese pitcher Daisuke Matsuzaka, sources told ESPN's Peter Gammons. Boston's bid far exceeded any other team's offer.
Matsuzaka will learn Tuesday whether the Seibu Lions have accepted a bid for him by a major league team.
Major League Baseball and the Japanese commissioner's office will make simultaneous announcements at 8 p.m. ET Tuesday (10 a.m. Tokyo time Wednesday), MLB spokesman Pat Courtney said Monday at the big league general managers' meetings.

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2660428

It just proves the value of
http://www.staffordmotorspeedway.com/NESN-LOGO.jpg

they going to love Hazel Mae in Japan

http://mlb.mlb.com/images/2006/05/05/ttU4Ucfr.jpg

crazyozzie02
11-13-2006, 04:45 PM
Boston did win says the score in one of their updates, so now they have 30 days as you all know.

Madvora
11-13-2006, 04:48 PM
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2660428
If Boston signs him it would effectively plant a Red Sox flag in the growing Far East market.

Give me a break!

SABRSox
11-13-2006, 04:48 PM
the whole system smells. It appears the Red Sox can make a lot of their money back simply by offering NESN games to Japanese Television. Mariners make a killing doing this. For some reason MLB revenue sharing rules to not apply to international TV.

That'll change come the next collective bargainning agreement.

Fenway
11-13-2006, 04:49 PM
Boston did win says the score in one of their updates, so now they have 30 days as you all know.

Nothing official until 8 PM eastern....but looks like WFAN was right about the money and Olney the team

I expect to see a lot of Japanese ads at Fenway next year
park looks like the side of a Nascar car

palehozenychicty
11-13-2006, 05:18 PM
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2660428


Give me a break!

Well, don't you know that baseball is only played East of the Hudson River? I mean, c'mon man! The Japanese only want to see the bestest and most splendiforous American teams!

spiffie
11-13-2006, 05:50 PM
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2660428


Give me a break!
He's probably right. Look at the Mariners and Ichiro. From everything I've seen about this guy he seems to be a phenomoneon over there, and whatever team got him is likely to become hugely popular over there. If KC had ponied up $50 million, there'd be a lot of blue hats on the streets of Tokyo.

Fenway
11-13-2006, 10:47 PM
24 hour delay MLB says

oeo
11-13-2006, 10:49 PM
He's probably right. Look at the Mariners and Ichiro. From everything I've seen about this guy he seems to be a phenomoneon over there, and whatever team got him is likely to become hugely popular over there. If KC had ponied up $50 million, there'd be a lot of blue hats on the streets of Tokyo.

It totally depends on how successful he is here. If he flops, all the money goes to waste, and will the guy really be that popular? Maybe, but if it's a constant suckfest, eventually it will wear off.

Grzegorz
11-14-2006, 05:56 AM
Is it just me, or does anybody want him to blow on a MLB team just to spite all the hype and overblown **** about him? I'm not saying he's a bad pitcher or anything, but I think its kind of outragous the "procedure" teams have to go through just to talk to a guy that may or may not sign with them.

Bidding to negotiate with a player?

Absolutely I hope this process fails. Think about how the money put up just to negotiate could help the player development and scouting departments of an organization.

esbrechtel
11-14-2006, 08:49 AM
i read in the trib that boston bid $45 mill

Fenway
11-14-2006, 09:24 AM
i read in the trib that boston bid $45 mill

nothing official yet


Matsuzaka's current team, the Seibu Lions, held a news conference last night, but only to say there will be a simultaneous announcement with Major League Baseball tonight on the status of the pitcher's posting, the process in which US teams can bid for the right to negotiate for his services.

http://www.boston.com/sports/baseball/redsox/articles/2006/11/14/sox_get_the_word_today/

INSox56
11-14-2006, 09:49 AM
i read in the trib that boston bid $45 mill

"Fifty million dollars? Who you think you got, Chelsea Clinton?"

Erik The Red
11-14-2006, 10:25 AM
I thought New York was the "evil empire".

Ol' No. 2
11-14-2006, 11:30 AM
Is anyone else thinking that if the Yankees whiff on getting Matsuzaka they might turn their attention to Freddy Garcia? Maybe that Rodriguez deal isn't dead yet.

palehozenychicty
11-14-2006, 12:41 PM
Is anyone else thinking that if the Yankees whiff on getting Matsuzaka they might turn their attention to Freddy Garcia? Maybe that Rodriguez deal isn't dead yet.

They will definitely do something ridiculous.

dcb56
11-14-2006, 02:35 PM
Is anyone else thinking that if the Yankees whiff on getting Matsuzaka they might turn their attention to Freddy Garcia? Maybe that Rodriguez deal isn't dead yet.

Freddy only gets up for the big games so New York would be the perfect place for him to go. :redneck



:offtopic: If KW wants to move Freddy he should send him to an AL West team not based in Anaheim using the fact that he's been money against the Angels his entire career as his selling point. How about Freddy + Uribe and maybe a prospect or two for Michael Young?

buehrle4cy05
11-14-2006, 08:20 PM
How about Freddy + Uribe and maybe a prospect or two for Michael Young?

I wonder...throw BA into that and could you remove the deep pink?

buehrle4cy05
11-14-2006, 08:23 PM
It's official:
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2662193

Red Sox pay $51.1 million for negotiating rights to Matsuzaka.

Throw in the $12-15 mil it will take (per year) to sign him, and they could spend about $65 million on a player for one year.:o:

SABRSox
11-14-2006, 08:33 PM
It's official:
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2662193

Red Sox pay $51.1 million for negotiating rights to Matsuzaka.

Throw in the $12-15 mil it will take (per year) to sign him, and they could spend about $65 million on a player for one year.:o:

Wow. That's insane for a player who hasn't thrown a single pitch in MLB. Perhaps the international TV revenues need to come under the revenue sharing as well.

Fenway
11-14-2006, 08:57 PM
It's official:
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2662193

Red Sox pay $51.1 million for negotiating rights to Matsuzaka.

Throw in the $12-15 mil it will take (per year) to sign him, and they could spend about $65 million on a player for one year.:o:

10 beers next year gawd thats a lot of cash

StillMissOzzie
11-14-2006, 09:03 PM
Red Sox pay $51.1 million for negotiating rights to Matsuzaka.


It was my understanding that the Red Sox will only cough up the bid money if they strike a deal with this guy, so they'd better make it at least a 3 year deal. $60M for a one year rental? Even Theo's not that dumb.

SMO
:gulp:

WizardsofOzzie
11-14-2006, 09:46 PM
Is it bad that i hope he's a flop, just to prove to all the idiots who wanted to fork over 50 million dollars just to talk to the guy, that its a dumbass appoach to building a baseball team. I enjoyed the part in the ESPN article where it showed you could have the top 5 SP in ERA, top 5 relievers, and the closer with the most saves and still have 2 million and change left over :o:

esbrechtel
11-14-2006, 10:16 PM
Is anyone else thinking that if the Yankees whiff on getting Matsuzaka they might turn their attention to Freddy Garcia? Maybe that Rodriguez deal isn't dead yet.

That is essentialy what the trib was talking about... not necessarily for Arod but a trade in general with the yank$ possibly bullpen help...and it was for trading any of the other 4 starters (not jose or vazquez)

areilly
11-14-2006, 10:28 PM
That is essentialy what the trib was talking about... not necessarily for Arod but a trade in general with the yank$ possibly bullpen help...and it was for trading any of the other 4 starters (not jose or vazquez)

I would imagine the Yankees aren't going to give Javy or Jose another chance. But I would also imagine they don't ever want to go back, either...

CLR01
11-14-2006, 10:40 PM
Is it bad that i hope he's a flop, j


Not at all. It is always fun to laugh at the mighty east coast teams.


$50 million+ is a lot of money for a Christmas tree.

esbrechtel
11-14-2006, 10:41 PM
I would imagine the Yankees aren't going to give Javy or Jose another chance. But I would also imagine they don't ever want to go back, either...
exactly!

buehrle4cy05
11-14-2006, 10:57 PM
Not at all. It is always fun to laugh at the mighty east coast teams.


$50 million+ is a lot of money for a Christmas tree.

I was looking forward to seeing Matsuzaka go to a team that I'd feel comfortable wearing their jersey, but because it's the Red Sox, I hope he flops.

thomas35forever
11-14-2006, 11:28 PM
Not since Yao Ming have I seen such hype over an overseas player who has yet to play in the States.

WizardsofOzzie
11-14-2006, 11:32 PM
Not since Yao Ming have I seen such hype over an overseas player who has yet to play in the States.
Does that mean we get the comercials from all the big companies, like the Yo....Yao credit card one?

Think of it......The McDonald's Matsuzaka happy meal, with gyroball McNuggets

Jjav829
11-15-2006, 12:41 AM
Hahahaha, $50+ million just for the right to sign a guy for even more money, and all the while he hasn't thrown a pitch in the big leagues yet. :roflmao:

I hope this guy is Hideki Irabu-bad. He'd have to be Johan Santana-good to be worth the money the Red Sox are paying.

You realize that for about $25 million more they could sign Barry Zito for 5 years?

BanditJimmy
11-15-2006, 01:10 AM
This guy might end up costing the Red Sox close to $100 million, especially since Borass is involved.


*** were they thinking?


Here is my hope for the Red Sox:

Schilling- His bleeding ankle explodes once again and his old arm falls off
Mastsuzaka - Sucks to the high leve Irabu did
Beckett - Continues to locate the plate the same way he locates his lack of mechanics.
Papelbon - becomes Mel Rojas one year wonder boy.

SABRSox
11-15-2006, 01:47 AM
Hahahaha, $50+ million just for the right to sign a guy for even more money, and all the while he hasn't thrown a pitch in the big leagues yet. :roflmao:

I hope this guy is Hideki Irabu-bad. He'd have to be Johan Santana-good to be worth the money the Red Sox are paying.

You realize that for about $25 million more they could sign Barry Zito for 5 years?

But the advertising dollars alone...

Obviously the marketing departments are gaining sway in baseball decisions. I'm not sure I like that.

Fenway
11-15-2006, 09:11 AM
Boston reaction

BOB RYAN (http://www.boston.com/sports/columnists/ryan/)
Dollars, hopes sky-high (http://www.boston.com/sports/baseball/redsox/articles/2006/11/15/dollars_and_hopes_sky_high_already)

Start with this: Investing in a pitcher is like putting your hard-earned money into a Broadway show.

ON BASEBALL (http://www.boston.com/sports/baseball/redsox/articles/2006/11/15/fact_plus_fiction_its_a_great_story)
It's a great story (http://www.boston.com/sports/baseball/redsox/articles/2006/11/15/fact_plus_fiction_its_a_great_story)

The Red Sox faked everybody out. Most everybody in Japan assumed that the Yankees would emerge as the highest bidder.

New York reaction
http://cache.boston.com/bonzai-fba/Globe_Photo/2006/11/15/1163598946_1258.jpg (http://www.nypost.com/seven/11152006/sports/boston_bounty_sports_joel_sherman.htm)http://cache.boston.com/bonzai-fba/Globe_Photo/2006/11/15/1163599006_9566.jpg (http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/story/471533p-396799c.html)

Fenway
11-15-2006, 10:18 AM
Mike Lupica nails it

You want to put a price tag on that five-game beatdown the Yankees gave the Red Sox last August, the total collapse that followed in Boston? Here it is, the $51.11 million the Red Sox now pay just to negotiate exclusively with Matsuzaka.

It means the Red Sox pay nearly as much to get a seat at the table with Matsuzaka and his agent Scott Boras as the Yankees paid to get Randy Johnson away from the Diamondbacks once.


http://www.nydailynews.com/front/story/471563p-396800c.html

BNLSox
11-15-2006, 10:38 AM
Maybe I'm being ignorant but I think that the Red Sox purely did this to block the Yankees from bringing this guy over for 2007. I truly believe that no deal will be worked out and that the money will return to beantown.

INSox56
11-15-2006, 10:48 AM
Maybe I'm being ignorant but I think that the Red Sox purely did this to block the Yankees from bringing this guy over for 2007. I truly believe that no deal will be worked out and that the money will return to beantown.

that's what some are saying and that wouldn't surprise me too much, really.

soxfan13
11-15-2006, 11:20 AM
that's what some are saying and that wouldn't surprise me too much, really.

Very interesting article for the people that think this is just a ploy to block the yankees....

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/columns/story?columnist=crasnick_jerry&id=2662289

WizardsofOzzie
11-15-2006, 11:37 AM
"The length of Matsuzaka's deal could be a sticking point. Boras, in all likelihood, would prefer to negotiate a three-year contract for, say, $15 million annually, then take Matsuzaka out on the market again when he's 29 years old and a proven winner on the biggest stage"

So this deal could potentially cost Boston 96 million for 3 years? Dear christ almighty :o:

CLR01
11-15-2006, 02:34 PM
"The length of Matsuzaka's deal could be a sticking point. Boras, in all likelihood, would prefer to negotiate a three-year contract for, say, $15 million annually, then take Matsuzaka out on the market again when he's 29 years old and a proven winner on the biggest stage"

So this deal could potentially cost Boston 96 million for 3 years? Dear christ almighty :o:


Did they release just the winning bid or did they disclose all bids? I wonder what the second highest bid was. This is going to be like Texas signing A-Rod all over again except with A-Rod you knew what you were getting.

Ol' No. 2
11-15-2006, 02:46 PM
"The length of Matsuzaka's deal could be a sticking point. Boras, in all likelihood, would prefer to negotiate a three-year contract for, say, $15 million annually, then take Matsuzaka out on the market again when he's 29 years old and a proven winner on the biggest stage"

So this deal could potentially cost Boston 96 million for 3 years? Dear christ almighty :o:So even if he wins 20 games every year, each of those wins costs them $1.6M.:o::o:

Fenway
11-15-2006, 03:01 PM
So this deal could potentially cost Boston 96 million for 3 years? Dear christ almighty :o:

The question we are asking in Boston is just how much money is this team making? :o: The investment bank looking at the New York Times says their stake in the Red Sox which was $75 Million 5 years ago is now worth $150 million.

These numbers are insane

Ol' No. 2
11-15-2006, 03:03 PM
The question we are asking in Boston is just how much money is this team making? :o: The investment bank looking at the New York Times says their stake in the Red Sox which was $75 Million 5 years ago is now worth $150 million.

These numbers are insaneYou know what this means...more seats (somewhere).

Fenway
11-15-2006, 03:09 PM
You know what this means...more seats (somewhere).

I figure seats on the CITGO sign :tongue:

They do plan to add 2500 more seats by 2008...all on the roof

http://mario.mlblogs.com/photos/boston/boston_005.jpg

spiffie
11-15-2006, 03:12 PM
So even if he wins 20 games every year, each of those wins costs them $1.6M.:o::o:
I guess what strikes me is that they've been making moves for the last year based on not having enough money. They let Damon go, they dropped out of the moves for Abreu...it seemed the Red Sox were trying to tighten the purse strings a bit.

Does anyone have any idea how profitable the Red Sox are? Because if they are able to make a profit with a $150 or $175 million payroll, why not spend it? Is there some objective number where it costs too much to win, or are we simply conditioned to that as Sox fans where we know that we have to try to win within a budget?

Fenway
11-15-2006, 03:47 PM
Matsuzaka 'surprised'
by Red Sox' $51m bid (http://www.boston.com/sports/baseball/redsox/articles/2006/11/15/red_sox_win_battle_to_talk_to_matsuzaka)

Daisuke Matsuzaka said today he looked forward to seeing Boston, though he stressed that he hasn't signed a contract so "it's not as though I'm on the team yet." (AP, 12:18 p.m.)

Lip Man 1
11-15-2006, 03:49 PM
Spiffie:

I don't think winning and cost effectiveness are linked. It all depends on the owner or ownership.

They have to answer questions themselves like what they have from a monetary resource standpoint. What their outside business interests are, if they are connected or if one does well or poorly how does that impact the other and so forth. How much do they make from marketing / broadcasting / parking / concessions and so on, what are the lease terms for the ballpark. Is it in fact important to them to actually 'make money,' and so forth.

It's not cut and dried.

Plus you have the individual personalities. Steinbrenner wants to win at all costs (God love him for it!), the Royals and Twins are owned by two of the richest individuals on the planet but they feel they are 'entitled' to the community giving them things instead of getting it on their own. You have the impact of corporations like Tribune Company and AOL / Time Warner.

Bottom line, there is no magic number for winning, spending, is it right? is it financially sound? ect. It all depends on the circumstances, background and personality of whomever owns a team.

Lip

lakeviewsoxfan
11-15-2006, 04:04 PM
I just do not think Boston will sign this guy Boras is going to demand at least 3 years and between 45-60MM. i think this was a way for them to block the NYY from signing this guy and by bidding a significant amount more than the competetion (just a guess) it was a ploy just to not let the NYY get this guy.

We shall see how this plays out.

Ol' No. 2
11-15-2006, 04:09 PM
Spiffie:

I don't think winning and cost effectiveness are linked. It all depends on the owner or ownership.

They have to answer questions themselves like what they have from a monetary resource standpoint. What their outside business interests are, if they are connected or if one does well or poorly how does that impact the other and so forth. How much do they make from marketing / broadcasting / parking / concessions and so on, what are the lease terms for the ballpark. Is it in fact important to them to actually 'make money,' and so forth.

It's not cut and dried.

Plus you have the individual personalities. Steinbrenner wants to win at all costs (God love him for it!), the Royals and Twins are owned by two of the richest individuals on the planet but they feel they are 'entitled' to the community giving them things instead of getting it on their own. You have the impact of corporations like Tribune Company and AOL / Time Warner.

Bottom line, there is no magic number for winning, spending, is it right? is it financially sound? ect. It all depends on the circumstances, background and personality of whomever owns a team.

LipI think there is a "magic number" in the sense that they could get more for the same amount of money spending it elsewhere. How many extra wins is he going to bring you? When all is said and done, they're going to shell out somewhere in the vicinity of $30M a year for this guy. I can't see any way he can contribute enough to justify that cost.

Fenway
11-15-2006, 04:10 PM
I just do not think Boston will sign this guy Boras is going to demand at least 3 years and between 45-60MM. i think this was a way for them to block the NYY from signing this guy and by bidding a significant amount more than the competetion (just a guess) it was a ploy just to not let the NYY get this guy.

We shall see how this plays out.

Every indication is Boston wants to sign him. They almost have to. Yes they could be doing it to block New York but if they then screw Boras you think Scott would let any of his clients go near Boston?

palehozenychicty
11-15-2006, 04:11 PM
I just do not think Boston will sign this guy Boras is going to demand at least 3 years and between 45-60MM. i think this was a way for them to block the NYY from signing this guy and by bidding a significant amount more than the competetion (just a guess) it was a ploy just to not let the NYY get this guy.

We shall see how this plays out.

A lot of this is sound but the Seibu Lions NEED the cash from the Sawx to cover operating costs. Boras is also unable to pit Matsuzaka against any other teams, so his hand is forced. They'll work a deal out, which will be absurd however you look at it.

Ol' No. 2
11-15-2006, 04:15 PM
A lot of this is sound but the Seibu Lions NEED the cash from the Sawx to cover operating costs. Boras is also unable to pit Matsuzaka against any other teams, so his hand is forced. They'll work a deal out, which will be absurd however you look at it.That's a good point. Boras can't play his usual game of playing one team off the other, so he's got a lot less leverage.

spiffie
11-15-2006, 04:22 PM
That's a good point. Boras can't play his usual game of playing one team off the other, so he's got a lot less leverage.
No, but he can hold up the works for 30 days while Zito, Padilla, Schmidt, Lilly, Meche, and pretty much any other pitcher of any value get a chance to sign somewhere else, and just let him become a pure free agent next season.

Perhaps the main thing in the Red Sox favor is supposedly Matsuzaka wants to come to the U.S. now. If that's the case it'll be hard for Boras to try and play that sort of game.

Ol' No. 2
11-15-2006, 04:31 PM
No, but he can hold up the works for 30 days while Zito, Padilla, Schmidt, Lilly, Meche, and pretty much any other pitcher of any value get a chance to sign somewhere else, and just let him become a pure free agent next season.

Perhaps the main thing in the Red Sox favor is supposedly Matsuzaka wants to come to the U.S. now. If that's the case it'll be hard for Boras to try and play that sort of game.Cross Zito off that list. Boras always holds his players out for as long as possible. No chance Zito will be signed before January. I doubt many of the others will sign that quickly, either. Besides, Matsuzaka would lose a lot of face going back to the Japanese league. No way he does that unless the Red Sox seriously lowball him, no matter what Boras says.

CLR01
11-15-2006, 04:47 PM
Boras is also unable to pit Matsuzaka against any other teams, so his hand is forced.


He can't let teams bid up the price because it has already happened. If anyones hand is forced here it is the Red Sox who showed the world how desperate they are to sign this guy that they paid $50million just to have a cup of coffee. I'm sure Boras is quite comfortable with his situation is this.

CLR01
11-15-2006, 04:49 PM
I just do not think Boston will sign this guy Boras is going to demand at least 3 years and between 45-60MM. i think this was a way for them to block the NYY from signing this guy and by bidding a significant amount more than the competetion (just a guess) it was a ploy just to not let the NYY get this guy.

We shall see how this plays out.

How are they blocking New York? If the Blow Sox don't sign him within the 30 day window can't they just start over again or offer him to the next highest bidder?

Ol' No. 2
11-15-2006, 04:51 PM
How are they blocking New York? If the Blow Sox don't sign him within the 30 day window can't they just start over again or offer him to the next highest bidder?Nope. He goes back to the Japanese team. This is the crazy part. You'd think the next highest bidder would get a shot, but that's not the way it works. But then the Red Sox don't pay the $51M.

CLR01
11-15-2006, 04:57 PM
Nope. He goes back to the Japanese team. This is the crazy part. You'd think the next highest bidder would get a shot, but that's not the way it works. But then the Red Sox don't pay the $51M.


Well all righty then. I thought I had read earlier in this thread that the process would start over.

KyWhiSoxFan
11-15-2006, 06:56 PM
No, but he can hold up the works for 30 days while Zito, Padilla, Schmidt, Lilly, Meche, and pretty much any other pitcher of any value get a chance to sign somewhere else, and just let him become a pure free agent next season.

Matsuzaka is under contract for two more years to the Lions. Seibu would have to go through the process again next year if a deal is not worked out. This actually puts a lot of pressure on Seibu to make a deal because the team owner needs cash.

Boston will surely try for a 4 or 5 year deal. No sense going for just two years and have to amortize $25 million per year into a deal, effectively paying $35 or $40 million a year for the guy.

If the two parties are close but can't reach an agreement, I would not be surprised if the Lions kick in money to close the deal. Paying such a high premium gives the Lions some leeway to give the BoSox some money from their take. The pressure here is on Matsuzaka and the Lions to get a deal done. It is in both of their best interests.

FedEx227
11-15-2006, 07:23 PM
Hmmm... Red Sox fans claim the beloved SAWKS are nothing like the Yankees. Makes sense.

chisoxmike
11-15-2006, 07:37 PM
Hmmm... Red Sox fans claim the beloved SAWKS are nothing like the Yankees. Makes sense.


They've always been the YankeesII in my eyes. I've NEVER felt bad for them and I NEVER will. **** 'em.

ilsox7
11-15-2006, 07:41 PM
So even if he wins 20 games every year, each of those wins costs them $1.6M.:o::o:

That doesn't take into account the increased revenues from having this guy on their team. From everything I've read, we're talking HUGE dollars added to the top line in Boston b/c of 1 guy.

A. Cavatica
11-15-2006, 10:14 PM
Smartest thing for Boston to do is lowball him. He's not worth the cost, but they can still keep him away from NY.

A. Cavatica
11-15-2006, 10:16 PM
I figure seats on the CITGO sign :tongue:

They do plan to add 2500 more seats by 2008...all on the roof

Could they replace the playing surface with thick plexiglas and put seats underneath?

Fenway
11-16-2006, 09:37 AM
How big is Daisuke Matsuzaka in Japan???? My company handles satellite time for media outlets and usually it is nice and quiet with the daily feeds for CNN, MSNBC, Fox etc...right now we have requests from EIGHTEEN media outlets from Japan who have all arrived in Boston.

I saw 2 crews from Japan doing street interviews in Harvard Square.

This seems to be a huge story in Toyko.

Fenway
11-16-2006, 03:23 PM
Turns out the Red Sox bid $51,111,111.11 was done so because it coverted to 6 billion yen.

I'm curious on how much payroll in Japan is for a full roster. Seems like Boston's bid might pay for the teams entire payroll in 2007.

ilsox7
11-16-2006, 03:32 PM
How big is Daisuke Matsuzaka in Japan???? My company handles satellite time for media outlets and usually it is nice and quiet with the daily feeds for CNN, MSNBC, Fox etc...right now we have requests from EIGHTEEN media outlets from Japan who have all arrived in Boston.

I saw 2 crews from Japan doing street interviews in Harvard Square.

This seems to be a huge story in Toyko.

As crazy as a lot of folks think Boston's bid is, I think most people are vastly underestimating the revenue streams that will come from signing this guy. The $51.1MM may be a wash when all is said and done.

spiffie
11-16-2006, 03:37 PM
Matsuzaka is under contract for two more years to the Lions. Seibu would have to go through the process again next year if a deal is not worked out. This actually puts a lot of pressure on Seibu to make a deal because the team owner needs cash.
Do you have a source on the idea that he has two years left, as every article I've read over the last six months has said that he would be entering his final season with Seibu if he didn't come over for 2007.

Domeshot17
11-16-2006, 10:31 PM
:whiner: :whiner: :whiner: Hey, I thought Theo was broke and had no money to spend. The Red Sox cant possibly compete with the Yankees payroll. :whiner: :whiner: :whiner:

I really wanted to like this guy too (Matsuzaka). Its a shame he has to goto Boston, and just become another Jackass like Josh Beckett, Curt Schilling, Mike Lowell, Jason Varitek.

In all honesty, he will help them a lot, but they still won't be a playoff team. Beckett can't handle the AL, Schilling is old, broken down, and gotten way too fat. Wakefield has always been average, Paplebon WILL NOT BE THE SAME PITCHER IN THE ROTATION (alot different seeing his splitter once a game and 3 times through the order, hes going to get hit hard in the 6th and 7th innings). They almost need an overhaul. Too many ?'s and too many guys on the decline in their career.

brewcrew/chisox
11-17-2006, 12:06 AM
I've also heard that so desperate are the Seibu lions to receive the initial sitdown money from the Red Sox that they may actually agree to pay part of Matsuzaka's contract once he signs. Seriously, think about it. if the Lions pay 10 million of his contract just so he signs, they still get 42 million, which is about what everyone thought the highest bid was going to be in the first place. The longer this negotiation drags on, the better chance this weird exchange has of surfacing.

Fenway
11-20-2006, 10:17 AM
:o:
Any Red Sox fans at the Staples Center were holding their breath as Kirk Hinrich landed in the lap of Daisuke Matsuzaka during play. Matsuzaka was not injured on the play.
http://cache.boston.com/bonzai-fba/Globe_Photo/2006/11/20/1164028483_5845.jpg

http://bostondirtdogs.boston.com/BDD_matsuzaka_daigo_banner.jpg (http://www.boston.com/sports/baseball/redsox/extras/matsuzaka/)

oeo
11-20-2006, 10:24 AM
:o:
Any Red Sox fans at the Staples Center were holding their breath as Kirk Hinrich landed in the lap of Daisuke Matsuzaka during play. Matsuzaka was not injured on the play.
http://cache.boston.com/bonzai-fba/Globe_Photo/2006/11/20/1164028483_5845.jpg

http://bostondirtdogs.boston.com/BDD_matsuzaka_daigo_banner.jpg (http://www.boston.com/sports/baseball/redsox/extras/matsuzaka/)


He's a Bulls fan (seriously, though, they said it during the game). :cool:

Anyways...he's not even signed yet, if he were to get injured, it's as simple as the Red Sox not signing him and getting their trillion dollars back.

peeonwrigley
11-20-2006, 02:40 PM
Knocking Matsuzaka out of the picture would have been the only positive contribution Hinrich made to Chicago last night. He was brutal.

Fenway
11-27-2006, 09:44 AM
Boras playing hardball

Matsuzaka, Sox oceans apart -- Talks could affect other deals
(http://redsox.bostonherald.com/redSox/view.bg?articleid=169222)By Tony Massarotti
The Red Sox and Daisuke Matsuzaka still have nearly three weeks to come to terms on a contract, but preliminary indications are that the sides may have to overcome an initial gap as wide as the Pacific Ocean.

meanwhile the Boston Globe looks at why the bid amount made sense for Boston.
Financially,
not a big hit (http://www.boston.com/sports/baseball/redsox/articles/2006/11/26/financially_not_a_big_hit)

There have been wide-ranging opinions on the enormous $51.1 million posting fee the Red Sox paid for Daisuke Matsuzaka's negotiating rights.


The cost of player development. It's a ballpark figure, but some baseball people calculate it costs $20 million-$40 million to develop a front-line player -- from the time he's drafted out of high school or college and signed to a lucrative bonus to the time he gets that superstar contract. That would justify the amounts ($30 million-$39 million) the Mets, Yankees, Rangers, and Angels posted for Matsuzaka.

You then factor in the two or three years he's under your control; the arbitration years when the money goes up; maybe even his first major contract to buy out the arbitration years, and then the payment for the big contract when he reaches superstar status.

When you look at it that way, if you had Matsuzaka in your farm system at age 18, signed him as an amateur player, paid for his instruction, signed him to major league contracts, etc., it probably wouldn't have added up to $51.1 million, but perhaps a sizable fraction of that.


and this little bombshell
The Red Sox also are close to buying into the Jack Roush racing team, which could bring them significant NASCAR revenue.

Flight #24
11-27-2006, 10:43 AM
The cost of player development. It's a ballpark figure, but some baseball people calculate it costs $20 million-$40 million to develop a front-line player -- from the time he's drafted out of high school or college and signed to a lucrative bonus to the time he gets that superstar contract. That would justify the amounts ($30 million-$39 million) the Mets, Yankees, Rangers, and Angels posted for Matsuzaka.

You then factor in the two or three years he's under your control; the arbitration years when the money goes up; maybe even his first major contract to buy out the arbitration years, and then the payment for the big contract when he reaches superstar status.

When you look at it that way, if you had Matsuzaka in your farm system at age 18, signed him as an amateur player, paid for his instruction, signed him to major league contracts, etc., it probably wouldn't have added up to $51.1 million, but perhaps a sizable fraction of that.


Ummmm.......doesn't that neglect that you had his performance for those years? In this case, the Red Sox are paying more than the estimated amount, getting a guy with a significant degree of MLB performance risk to him, and getting fewer yearsof performance out of him for it. Great plan!

Fenway
11-28-2006, 09:39 AM
It turns out that part of the 51 million going to the Lions can be used on the contract.

http://redsox.bostonherald.com/redSox/view.bg?articleid=169381

An example of what Lucchino and the Lions could be discussing is the Red Sox being unwilling to go beyond an average annual salary of $9 million. If an acceptable middle ground of $11 million per year for, say, five years would get a deal done, the Lions could subtract $10 million from the $51.11 million owed them in order to bridge the gap.
Seibu is considered to be in no position to turn its back on even $41.11 million. The owner of Seibu, Yoskiaki Tsutsumi, resigned last year amid allegations of insider trading, and the team is seen as struggling financially.



TOKYO -- The Red Sox have made an offer to pitcher Daisuke Matsuzaka that Boston president Larry Lucchino describes as "fair" and "comprehensive."

Lucchino, in Tokyo on Tuesday after meeting with representatives of Matsuzaka's Seibu Lions, said the Red Sox have taken the next step toward signing the Japanese star.


http://www.boston.com/sports/baseball/redsox/articles/2006/11/28/red_sox_make_offer_to_matsuzaka/

caulfield12
11-28-2006, 09:53 AM
It turns out that part of the 51 million going to the Lions can be used on the contract.

http://redsox.bostonherald.com/redSox/view.bg?articleid=169381




http://www.boston.com/sports/baseball/redsox/articles/2006/11/28/red_sox_make_offer_to_matsuzaka/


The other thing that you have to consider is the revenue streams from Japan that will be created with his addition. He jumps right away to #2 coverage, if not top billing because of his being on the Red Sox in Japan.

So, as with the Roush partnership to generate ANOTHER form of revenue, the Red Sox have estimated he could bring in between $8-12 million per season to the coffers.

In that sense, any deal here makes more sense than Schmidt or Zito, who have limited "revenue generating powers" (maybe Zito, to an extent), IF HE TRULY is an ACE and not Hideki Irabu, Mac Suzuki or Chan-Ho Park.

Fenway
11-28-2006, 09:59 AM
The other thing that you have to consider is the revenue streams from Japan that will be created with his addition. He jumps right away to #2 coverage, if not top billing because of his being on the Red Sox in Japan.

So, as with the Roush partnership to generate ANOTHER form of revenue, the Red Sox have estimated he could bring in between $8-12 million per season to the coffers.

In that sense, any deal here makes more sense than Schmidt or Zito, who have limited "revenue generating powers" (maybe Zito, to an extent), IF HE TRULY is an ACE and not Hideki Irabu, Mac Suzuki or Chan-Ho Park.

It speaks volumes that Lucchino is in Japan talking to the Lions directly. This deal will get done as the Lions already had a going away party for Matsuzaka and now since we know the Lions can contribute to the contract thje 51M bid makes a little more sense.

The Red Sox may not know how to evaluate players but they sure know how to make money.

champagne030
11-28-2006, 02:23 PM
The other thing that you have to consider is the revenue streams from Japan that will be created with his addition. He jumps right away to #2 coverage, if not top billing because of his being on the Red Sox in Japan.

So, as with the Roush partnership to generate ANOTHER form of revenue, the Red Sox have estimated he could bring in between $8-12 million per season to the coffers.

In that sense, any deal here makes more sense than Schmidt or Zito, who have limited "revenue generating powers" (maybe Zito, to an extent), IF HE TRULY is an ACE and not Hideki Irabu, Mac Suzuki or Chan-Ho Park.

The Red Sox are going to see **** in the way of revenue from the Roush deal. NASCAR fans aren't suddenly going to turn on the Boston game because their logo is on the hood for a few races.

palehozenychicty
11-28-2006, 02:58 PM
The Red Sox may not know how to evaluate players but they sure know how to make money.


Where have we heard that one before? Oh, wait......:D:

caulfield12
11-28-2006, 03:30 PM
The Red Sox are going to see **** in the way of revenue from the Roush deal. NASCAR fans aren't suddenly going to turn on the Boston game because their logo is on the hood for a few races.


Just wait...just like outfield billboards in the majors or "naming rights," they'll figure out a way to make money from it somehow.

Flight #24
11-28-2006, 04:17 PM
Interesting scenario developing that could make the Red Sox look very smart.

If you assume Matsuzaka is a guy worth say $15M/yr on a 6-yr deal if he were an FA, that's $90M.

Now if the Red Sox get him at say $8M/yr for 6 and pay $51M posting fee, he costs them $99M. The Seibu Lions kick in $24M into his contract so he makes $12M/yr, which given that he doesn't have the FA process to deliver his full value, is a reasonable discount.

If he brings in $2M/yr in additional revenue, that brings the net cost to the Red Sox to $87M, or right in line with what a young #2 starter might fetch in the current pitching market.

Why would the Lions kick in the $$$? Because having accepted the $51M posting fee, they like Daisuke have few options, and receiving a net posting fee of $27M isn't that far off of the pre-posting estimates, and it's a hell of a lot better than the 0 they'd get if he comes back to Japan.

So basically, the Red Sox bid an amount that they knew would blow everyone out of the water and then used the fact that they face the least consequences of the 3 involved parties of a deal falling apart to put the squeeze on the other parties to get them a market-level deal.

The most interesting part of this is the implications that this might have for the next posted star.

Ol' No. 2
11-28-2006, 04:32 PM
Interesting scenario developing that could make the Red Sox look very smart.

If you assume Matsuzaka is a guy worth say $15M/yr on a 6-yr deal if he were an FA, that's $90M.

Now if the Red Sox get him at say $8M/yr for 6 and pay $51M posting fee, he costs them $99M. The Seibu Lions kick in $24M into his contract so he makes $12M/yr, which given that he doesn't have the FA process to deliver his full value, is a reasonable discount.

If he brings in $2M/yr in additional revenue, that brings the net cost to the Red Sox to $87M, or right in line with what a young #2 starter might fetch in the current pitching market.

Why would the Lions kick in the $$$? Because having accepted the $51M posting fee, they like Daisuke have few options, and receiving a net posting fee of $27M isn't that far off of the pre-posting estimates, and it's a hell of a lot better than the 0 they'd get if he comes back to Japan.

So basically, the Red Sox bid an amount that they knew would blow everyone out of the water and then used the fact that they face the least consequences of the 3 involved parties of a deal falling apart to put the squeeze on the other parties to get them a market-level deal.

The most interesting part of this is the implications that this might have for the next posted star.Good point. The fact that the posting team gets zip if the player isn't signed and they can't go to the next highest bidding team is an obvious flaw in the system. It lets a MLB team hold the posting team hostage. If that happens, look for a change in the system next year.

champagne030
11-28-2006, 08:32 PM
Just wait...just like outfield billboards in the majors or "naming rights," they'll figure out a way to make money from it somehow.

Except there's no billboard space or naming rights left to sell. NASCAR team owner's aren't getting rich. NASCAR (Bill France) is getting rich. Every dime that sponsorship draws goes into the cars. I have a friend who was responsible for sports marketing at a company that paid for primary sponsorship on a NASCAR team. Owner's don't get into the sport to get rich. They're already rich and are looking for a way to enjoy their fortune. Primary sponsors pay upwards of $35M a year to get 4 hours worth of commercials during a race and brand loyalty from fans.

caulfield12
11-28-2006, 09:25 PM
With Montoya, they're looking to expand into the emerging Hispanic market. Women drivers, black drivers...they really need to escape from the "stigma" of the South that you still see at lots of racetracks like Talledega, hundreds of campers and trucks and SUV's with "3" on them or "8" or Confederate flags.

If they can broaden their appeal to the NE and West, they might have something...enough to start cutting into NBA and NHL revenues, if they haven't already.

I know there's not a direct crossover between the Big 4 sports and Nascar or PGA golf, but there has to be some "cross pollination" going on.

champagne030
11-28-2006, 09:52 PM
With Montoya, they're looking to expand into the emerging Hispanic market. Women drivers, black drivers...they really need to escape from the "stigma" of the South that you still see at lots of racetracks like Talledega, hundreds of campers and trucks and SUV's with "3" on them or "8" or Confederate flags.

If they can broaden their appeal to the NE and West, they might have something...enough to start cutting into NBA and NHL revenues, if they haven't already.

I know there's not a direct crossover between the Big 4 sports and Nascar or PGA golf, but there has to be some "cross pollination" going on.

NASCAR (Bill France) loves the idea of expanding. Ganassi loves Montoya because he knows he's a hell of a driver and could maybe bring him a championship.

Owner's don't mind the expansion, but only because they won't have to worry about busting their ass to find sponsors or risk paying their own cash to fund their teams. Roush has had to bust his ass lately to find sponsors and drivers and he's had one of the most successful teams around. He'd gladly let the Sawx give him 'X' dollars and let them find the sponsors or worry about the cash. Maybe Boston thinks they can muscle advertisers from their network into NASCAR sponsorship (or the other way around), but that only helps them recoup their investment (and I already stated the owner's don't make much profit). And anything that would have an official Red Sox logo/affiliation on the car would garner MLB wanting some money thrown their way.

The Red Sox may help draw viewers to NASCAR, but all NASCAR viewers already know about Boston.

Flight #24
11-29-2006, 10:30 AM
Good point. The fact that the posting team gets zip if the player isn't signed and they can't go to the next highest bidding team is an obvious flaw in the system. It lets a MLB team hold the posting team hostage. If that happens, look for a change in the system next year.

In an interesting twist, MLB has supposedly said that a team is not allowed to leverage part of the posting fee into salary through side deals. Whether that's enforceable or whether they would even enforce it against one of the "favorite son" teams is the interesting part.

Fenway
11-29-2006, 11:45 AM
In an interesting twist, MLB has supposedly said that a team is not allowed to leverage part of the posting fee into salary through side deals. Whether that's enforceable or whether they would even enforce it against one of the "favorite son" teams is the interesting part.

There is no way MLB can enforce this. The Lions could funnel the money back into one of the Red Sox dummy companies that don't answer to MLB.

Boston Red Sox (http://redsox.bostonherald.com/redSox)

(http://redsox.bostonherald.com/redSox/view.bg?articleid=169588)
MLB: Seibu canít pitch in $$$
(http://redsox.bostonherald.com/redSox/view.bg?articleid=169588)By Michael Silverman
Major League Baseball said yesterday that the Seibu Lions cannot use any portion of the $51.11...

Boras is shooting for the moon but he also has a client that wants to go to the US, his former team needs the money. The deal will get done somehow.

Boston Red Sox (http://redsox.bostonherald.com/redSox)

Red Sox look down on Matsuzaka -- Dealing with Boras perilous
(http://redsox.bostonherald.com/redSox/view.bg?articleid=169531)By Tony Massarotti
The news sent shock waves throughout the baseball world, but nowhere was the noise louder than in Southern California. There, at Scott Boras Headquarters, the $51.11 million for the rights to Daisuke Matsuzaka meant one thing and one thing...

Madvora
11-29-2006, 11:54 AM
Red Sox look down on Matsuzaka -- Dealing with Boras perilous
(http://redsox.bostonherald.com/redSox/view.bg?articleid=169531)By Tony Massarotti
The news sent shock waves throughout the baseball world, but nowhere was the noise louder than in Southern California. There, at Scott Boras Headquarters, the $51.11 million for the rights to Daisuke Matsuzaka meant one thing and one thing...
Oh God! They've already created the nickmame "D-Mat" for him?
I feel sick.

Fenway
11-29-2006, 12:31 PM
Oh God! They've already created the nickmame "D-Mat" for him?
I feel sick.

That is the Herald's name for him, the Globe has decided on Dice-K :rolleyes:

Bobby Valentine is concerned the posting process may ruin baseball in Japan

Bobby V isn't worried about Matsuzaka. It's the posting process itself that has him squinting at the future from his perch in an Osaka skybox. "Japanese baseball can't exist for long, just like the Negro Leagues couldn't exist, if Major League Baseball just takes the best players away," he says. "This isn't, this shouldn't be, a minor league breeding ground. This is a place where newborns are dressed in Yomiuri Giants uniforms. This is a place with history and passion. This is a place where baseball is the No. 1 sport, where baseball is played on every last patch of available dirt." Valentine envisions a system in which Asian teams would make up a division of MLB and compete for the World Series crown.

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2669791

Madvora
11-29-2006, 12:44 PM
Bobby Valentine is concerned the posting process may ruin baseball in Japan

I'm probably in the minority here at WSI, but I loved the WBC and would love to see Japan or other countries worked into the MLB.

SABRSox
11-29-2006, 12:53 PM
I'm probably in the minority here at WSI, but I loved the WBC and would love to see Japan or other countries worked into the MLB.

The travel logistics make it impossible.

Fenway
11-29-2006, 12:55 PM
I'm probably in the minority here at WSI, but I loved the WBC and would love to see Japan or other countries worked into the MLB.

It is only a matter of time ( perhaps in the next 10 years ) that the Japan Leagues will somehow be intergrated into MLB. There is simply too much money to be made in Japan. Japan is more baseball mad than the United States as it is their #1 sport.

The WBC proved that the gap is closing at the elite level.

Madvora
11-29-2006, 01:11 PM
The travel logistics make it impossible.
Oh I didn't mean anything like Asia being the "AL Far East" or anything. Obviously that's too much travel to make it possible. The idea that these teams would compete in some sort of post season playoffs or tournament is what I was talking about.

Fenway
11-29-2006, 01:26 PM
I suspect the Red Sox will soon open their season with 2 games in Japan if they sign Matsuzaka. I'm surprised the Mariners haven't done so yet.

PKalltheway
11-29-2006, 04:29 PM
I suspect the Red Sox will soon open their season with 2 games in Japan if they sign Matsuzaka. I'm surprised the Mariners haven't done so yet.
IIRC, the A's and Mariners were supposed to play a couple of games in Japan to start either the 2002 or 2003 season, but it wound up getting cancelled for some reason. Maybe somebody can help me out on this.

Fenway
12-07-2006, 11:00 AM
A week to go and the Red Sox are getting worried

Getting dicey
with Matsuzaka (http://www.boston.com/sports/baseball/redsox/articles/2006/12/07/getting_dicey_with_matsuzaka)

With a week to go before the clock strikes midnight on the Red Sox' quest to sign Daisuke Matsuzaka, perhaps it should not surprise anyone that the Sox are feeling their chances of landing Dice-K are more than a bit dicey.


According to sources with direct access to the Sox' view, there is an increasing feeling that Boras is setting the stage, both privately and publicly, that there is not going to be a deal. "Unless he's being less than honest," one source said, "there isn't going to be a deal."

Ol' No. 2
12-07-2006, 11:16 AM
A week to go and the Red Sox are getting worried

Getting dicey
with Matsuzaka (http://www.boston.com/sports/baseball/redsox/articles/2006/12/07/getting_dicey_with_matsuzaka)

With a week to go before the clock strikes midnight on the Red Sox' quest to sign Daisuke Matsuzaka, perhaps it should not surprise anyone that the Sox are feeling their chances of landing Dice-K are more than a bit dicey.
"Unless he's being less than honest,":rolleyes:

Flight #24
12-07-2006, 11:21 AM
A week to go and the Red Sox are getting worried

Getting dicey (http://www.boston.com/sports/baseball/redsox/articles/2006/12/07/getting_dicey_with_matsuzaka)
with Matsuzaka (http://www.boston.com/sports/baseball/redsox/articles/2006/12/07/getting_dicey_with_matsuzaka)

With a week to go before the clock strikes midnight on the Red Sox' quest to sign Daisuke Matsuzaka, perhaps it should not surprise anyone that the Sox are feeling their chances of landing Dice-K are more than a bit dicey.


I heard a rumor that Boras could quash this deal, then turn around to the Lions and offer to buy out Matsuzaka's rights himself and shop around for a bigger deal as an FA.

I'd have to think the Commish would squash that since it would basically eliminate the posting system and since it would be a return to the days in which teams sold players for cash. But it's a possibility. Boras/Daisuke agree to pay say $30M to the Lions, the Yankees turn around and sign him for a 6-year, $120M deal, and he nets a $15M/yr salary (less Bora$ commission).

Ol' No. 2
12-07-2006, 11:29 AM
I heard a rumor that Boras could quash this deal, then turn around to the Lions and offer to buy out Matsuzaka's rights himself and shop around for a bigger deal as an FA.

I'd have to think the Commish would squash that since it would basically eliminate the posting system and since it would be a return to the days in which teams sold players for cash. But it's a possibility. Boras/Daisuke agree to pay say $30M to the Lions, the Yankees turn around and sign him for a 6-year, $120M deal, and he nets a $15M/yr salary (less Bora$ commission).No way. Can you imagine the repurcussions?

Fenway
12-07-2006, 11:31 AM
I heard a rumor that Boras could quash this deal, then turn around to the Lions and offer to buy out Matsuzaka's rights himself and shop around for a bigger deal as an FA.

I'd have to think the Commish would squash that since it would basically eliminate the posting system and since it would be a return to the days in which teams sold players for cash. But it's a possibility. Boras/Daisuke agree to pay say $30M to the Lions, the Yankees turn around and sign him for a 6-year, $120M deal, and he nets a $15M/yr salary (less Bora$ commission).

Larry Lucchino said on WEEI if Boras tries to pull a stunt like that the Red Sox will demand that Selig BAN Boras from the game of baseball.

Boras said 2 days ago the worth of the Lions franchise is only $100 million and the posting system is flawed. This could wind up on Selig's lap and who knows what the genius of Milwaukee would do.

Like we need another soap opera in this town.

Kogs35
12-07-2006, 11:37 AM
Larry Lucchino said on WEEI if Boras tries to pull a stunt like that the Red Sox will demand that Selig BAN Boras from the game of baseball.

Boras said 2 days ago the worth of the Lions franchise is only $100 million and the posting system is flawed. This could wind up on Selig's lap and who knows what the genius of Milwaukee would do.

Like we need another soap opera in this town.

seems like this game of poker boras is playing is going to blow up in his face if he tries that. as much as selig is a moron, he is leaving at the end of his contract, there is no way he leaves his "legacy" letting boras get away with a stunt like that.

Domeshot17
12-07-2006, 12:12 PM
Even if they have to wait the year its not a BAD move by Boras

Let say the red sox would give a 3 year 36 million dollar deal.

Next year, he can get a 6 year 18 per deal, which would almost be like a 5 year deal for 18 per since he lost a year, it still makes the same money after 3 years from today with 3 more years of 18 per incase he is a Bust

palehozenychicty
12-07-2006, 12:55 PM
No way. Can you imagine the repurcussions?


It is developing quite similar to how ARod was lost by the Red Sox due to the player's union not wanting him to change terms on his deal to match the dollars. Then the Yanks came in the 11th hour and got him. That being said, ARod on the Sawx arguably would've been an even bigger disaster and they wouldn't have won the series in '04.

ewokpelts
12-07-2006, 01:18 PM
It is developing quite similar to how ARod was lost by the Red Sox due to the player's union not wanting him to change terms on his deal to match the dollars. Then the Yanks came in the 11th hour and got him. That being said, ARod on the Sawx arguably would've been an even bigger disaster and they wouldn't have won the series in '04.there's no telling how bad arod on the blow sawks would have been....for all we know, they would have won it all anyways....your 3-4-5 hitters would have been manny arod and MVP Ortiz...not a bad stretch

ewokpelts
12-07-2006, 01:21 PM
I dont know if this has been posted here yet, but Last week on Dan Patrick's show, he pointed out that the $51 Million that the Blow sawks will pay just to TALK to D. is 2 million LESS than what the Yankmees paid Damon for 4 years of work.

Fenway
12-07-2006, 01:25 PM
Even if they have to wait the year its not a BAD move by Boras



Well there is a great subplot developing. Boston has already paid the Seibu Lions the posting fee (Lucchino did that last week in Toyko) and now comes word that the Lions' owner has already "invested" the money.

Matsuzaka doesn't want to go back at this point.

Can you imagine what would happen if Boston doesn't sign him and they can't get their money back from the Lions? :o:

SABRSox
12-07-2006, 01:33 PM
Can you imagine what would happen if Boston doesn't sign him and they can't get their money back from the Lions? :o:

Whitey Bulger flies to Japan to break Matsuzaka's arm?

Fenway
12-07-2006, 01:43 PM
Whitey Bulger flies to Japan to break Matsuzaka's arm?

http://images.google.com/images?q=tbn:1pPg1UQYFYVk-M:http://images.ibsys.com/2002/1203/1817021_200X150.jpg (http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://images.ibsys.com/2002/1203/1817021_200X150.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.thebostonchannel.com/news/1823904/detail.html&h=150&w=200&sz=7&hl=en&start=43&tbnid=1pPg1UQYFYVk-M:&tbnh=78&tbnw=104&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dwhitey%2Bbulger%26start%3D40%26ndsp%3 D20%26svnum%3D10%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26sa%3DN):rolli ng: :rolling:

Domeshot17
12-07-2006, 01:47 PM
right now this is a big starring contest between the red sox and Bora$$. And as much as I don't like cutting Theo and his "we cant compete with the yankees" poor me little kid attitude any slack, he is in a very bad spot. IF he lets Matsuzaka go unsigned, he is a laughing stock, but if he gives him 6 years 18 mil per and he ends up being average, he is also a laughing stock.

Boras also is not going to take well to the Boston threats.

This was a mess from day one. The entire process is flawed. You know for a fact had Kansas City come in, offered 65 million to negotiate, A call would have went to the Yankees and Red Sox, Seattle, etc. asking if they would go 66. The reason is no one cares about Matsuzaka on the KC Royals.

And lets say KC would if they had it, then the system basically is calling 4 teams and saying how high will YOU go.

The correct process would be a set fee, 10 million, 5 million, every team pays it, and a lottery occurs for the rights.

voodoochile
12-07-2006, 01:49 PM
Well there is a great subplot developing. Boston has already paid the Seibu Lions the posting fee (Lucchino did that last week in Toyko) and now comes word that the Lions' owner has already "invested" the money.

Matsuzaka doesn't want to go back at this point.

Can you imagine what would happen if Boston doesn't sign him and they can't get their money back from the Lions? :o:

Makes sense to invest it then they will the interest and can repay the principle and still have a profit.

Fee was 20M or something, even in a week at 4% the interest would be $15,000+.

Fenway
12-07-2006, 01:57 PM
Makes sense to invest it then they will the interest and can repay the principle and still have a profit.

Fee was 20M or something, even in a week at 4% the interest would be $15,000+.

It was 51M to be exact ( or actually 6 billion yen )

I'm not sure how much leverage Boras has however. If his client has to go back he has "lost face" which is huge in the culture of Japan. The Lions obviously don't want him back either.

There is very bad blood between Boras and Lucchino after the A-Rod fiasco. This could really get ugly and then Selig has to do something. That is the last thing Bud wants to do.

Keep in mind Lucchino wants to replace Bud as commissioner when the time comes

SABRSox
12-07-2006, 01:59 PM
Keep in mind Lucchino wants to replace Bud as commissioner when the time comes

So? What does Bora$$ have to do with that decision? Nothing.

Ol' No. 2
12-07-2006, 03:00 PM
It was 51M to be exact ( or actually 6 billion yen )

I'm not sure how much leverage Boras has however. If his client has to go back he has "lost face" which is huge in the culture of Japan. The Lions obviously don't want him back either.

There is very bad blood between Boras and Lucchino after the A-Rod fiasco. This could really get ugly and then Selig has to do something. That is the last thing Bud wants to do.

Keep in mind Lucchino wants to replace Bud as commissioner when the time comesThere's way too much at stake here for everybody for even Boras to screw it up. The deal will get done, although probably not until the 11th hour.

jabrch
12-08-2006, 12:50 AM
There's way too much at stake here for everybody for even Boras to screw it up. The deal will get done, although probably not until the 11th hour.


Without a shady backroom deal where Seibu sends cash back to the Red Sox, or to Matsuzaka himself, I don't see a deal happening. 51mm + a deal that Matsuzaka/Boras would take is going to be well over 20mm per year, possibly over 25mm. That's just out of line with any market, for any pitcher right now, much less one who has never thrown one inning in MLB.

SluggersAway
12-08-2006, 01:18 AM
Without a shady backroom deal where Seibu sends cash back to the Red Sox, or to Matsuzaka himself, I don't see a deal happening.

No need to be shady, the 6 billion yen can be used any way they please including using it to pay a little of Matsuzaka's salary.

HomeFish
12-08-2006, 02:34 AM
fenway:

Could you do us a favor and link to the Boston newspaper that says "D-Mat", rather than the one which says "Dice-K"?

D-Mat may be boring, derivative, unoriginal, etc., but it kind of has a ring to it. Dice-K is just plain retarded.

Fenway
12-08-2006, 09:28 AM
fenway:

Could you do us a favor and link to the Boston newspaper that says "D-Mat", rather than the one which says "Dice-K"?

D-Mat may be boring, derivative, unoriginal, etc., but it kind of has a ring to it. Dice-K is just plain retarded.

LOL I will try

Boras has to be laughing after the Royals gave Meche 11M a year. These contracts have gone beyond insane.


When Gil Meche, who has won a grand total of 55 games in his career, including a modest 11 last season in Seattle, can claim a $55 million, five-year contract from the small-market Kansas City Royals, one can only imagine what kind of payday Boras envisions for his Japanese client. "When I see midlevel pitchers perform, and when they're being paid, they're being paid $40 million, $50 million over four or five years, the fact is, this player's abilities are better," Boras said of Matsuzaka. "And everyone knows it, everyone admits it, and I'm not being an advocate for the player when I say that. I'm merely repeating the observations of most trained baseball observers.


http://www.boston.com/sports/baseball/redsox/articles/2006/12/08/red_sox_map_out_next_step_for_long_term/

caulfield12
12-08-2006, 10:26 AM
LOL I will try

Boras has to be laughing after the Royals gave Meche 11M a year. These contracts have gone beyond insane.



http://www.boston.com/sports/baseball/redsox/articles/2006/12/08/red_sox_map_out_next_step_for_long_term/


Where was the line about the Royals/Meche deal was like "a homeless person buying a Plasma Big Screen tv"?

Flight #24
12-08-2006, 10:56 AM
No need to be shady, the 6 billion yen can be used any way they please including using it to pay a little of Matsuzaka's salary.

Not according to the commissioners office it can't.

jabrch
12-08-2006, 03:23 PM
No need to be shady, the 6 billion yen can be used any way they please including using it to pay a little of Matsuzaka's salary.

That's against the rules. That doesn't mean it hasn't and won't happen, but it is against the rules. The posting fee may not be manipulated by using other kickbacks to the teams or the player. Highest bidder wins, the team gets all of that money, and then the MLB team and the player negotiate a deal. The Japanese team is not supposed to be a facilitator of the deal nor an interested party financially, otherwise it lessens the value of the posting fee and might have meants someone else would have been the highest bidder.