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View Full Version : Crede gets the shaft in GG voting


Jjav829
11-02-2006, 04:27 PM
What a sham. Chavez won again. :rolleyes:

The other award winners were:

SP - Kenny Rogers
C - Ivan Rodriguez
1B - Mark Teixeira
2B - Mark Grudzielanek
SS - Derek Jeter
OF - Ichiro
OF - Vernon Wells
OF - Torii Hunter

Ol' No. 2
11-02-2006, 04:30 PM
What a sham. Chavez won again. :rolleyes:

The other award winners were:

SP - Kenny Rogers
C - Ivan Rodriguez
1B - Mark Teixeira
2B - Mark Grudzielanek
SS - Derek Jeter
OF - Ichiro
OF - Vernon Wells
OF - Torii HunterI wish I could say I was surprised.

lakeviewsoxfan
11-02-2006, 04:30 PM
You just knew that was coming. Personally I thought Mike Lowell deserved it more than Chavez. The GG award is a ****ing joke.

LuvSox
11-02-2006, 04:31 PM
I'm sad for Joe.

chaerulez
11-02-2006, 04:31 PM
Derek Jeter wins another gold glove award. What a joke.

WizardsofOzzie
11-02-2006, 04:32 PM
Im shocked!!!

QCIASOXFAN
11-02-2006, 04:33 PM
I wish I could say I was surprised.
Good Posting. That was my reply.

23Ventura
11-02-2006, 04:34 PM
Chavez will always get it as long as he continues to dive on the ground to field balls to his left that Crede would field routinely. I also think it's a shame Buehrle never seems to get consideration for a GG. Do they just automatically give it to Kenny Rogers because he dives for every ball, even when it's totally obvious he has no chance of catching it? I've actually seen him screw up easy plays for the SS or second baseman with that dive a lot more times than I've seen him make the play. And Derek Jeter winning it again? He has no range. Do people really think he's the best defensive short stop in the league? (Or on his own team, for that matter)

The GG is a joke because they give it to the same guys every year, even if they don't deserve it.

Lip Man 1
11-02-2006, 04:45 PM
To be honest with you I though Joe had a better defensive season in 2005 then in 2006. Anyway I'm not surprised. Crede isn't 'flashy' he just gets the job done (and in something like this that can hurt you...)

Lip

maurice
11-02-2006, 04:45 PM
I'm not gonna claim that our guys definitely are the best at their positions, but they're better than or equal to 4 or 5 of the winners.

zach074
11-02-2006, 04:50 PM
Same story as last year. The Gold Glove award is a popularity contest.

seventyseven
11-02-2006, 05:06 PM
I'm more surprised Hunter won than Chavez. Torii looked rather average out there this year. Gary Matthews, Jr., anyone?

Corlose 15
11-02-2006, 05:06 PM
What a sham. Chavez won again. :rolleyes:

The other award winners were:

SP - Kenny Rogers
C - Ivan Rodriguez
1B - Mark Teixeira
2B - Mark Grudzielanek
SS - Derek Jeter
OF - Ichiro
OF - Vernon Wells
OF - Torii Hunter

The only one of these guys who didn't have this award locked up in April was Grudzielanek because Hudson got traded to the national league. This award is an absolute joke.

JB98
11-02-2006, 05:07 PM
Mark Grudzielanek? Are you kidding me?

The two best defensive second baseman in the AL are:
1. Luis Castillo
2. Tadahito Iguchi

I know Crede got screwed, but I just thought I'd bitch about a position other than 3B or SS. :D:

IlliniSox4Life
11-02-2006, 05:14 PM
The thing that pisses me off isn't that my guy doesn't get some stupid award, it's knowing that 30 years from now, everyone will talk about the great Chavez' defense, and very few will know anything about Crede's D (that is assuming he doesn't end up with the Yankees or Red Sox)

soxinem1
11-02-2006, 05:17 PM
I for once have to disagree with many of the posts. I take nothing away from Crede, and do believe he deserves to win a GG, but Chavez did have a great year with the glove, as did Mike Lowell. In several key categories he was better than Joe.

If it would have been Nick Punto, A-Rod, Beltre, or some other stiff, then yes, I'd be upset.

At least he lost it to a credible player, not like that stupid Palmeiro GG back in the 90's when he played about 20 games at 1B and won the award. That was obsurd!

Sox Fan 35
11-02-2006, 05:20 PM
I for once have to disagree with many of the posts. I take nothing away from Crede, and do believe he deserves to win a GG, but Chavez did have a great year with the glove, as did Mike Lowell. In several key categories he was better than Joe.

If it would have been Nick Punto, A-Rod, Beltre, or some other stiff, then yes, I'd be upset.

At least he lost it to a credible player, not like that stupid Palmeiro GG back in the 90's when he played about 20 games at 1B and won the award. That was obsurd!

I agree. If Crede is ever going to win one he will really have to out play Chavez.

Jurr
11-02-2006, 05:33 PM
Sorry, guys. He had half the errors and a better fielding percentage. He had more putouts and more double plays turned. And, he's a damn solid third baseman. Crede is awesome, but Chavez had a better year. Crede should've won it last year, but Chavez was the easy pick here.

BA: The Hitman
11-02-2006, 05:36 PM
Sorry, guys. He had half the errors and a better fielding percentage. He had more putouts and more double plays turned. And, he's a damn solid third baseman. Crede is awesome, but Chavez had a better year. Crede should've won it last year, but Chavez was the easy pick here.


As much as I hate to admit it, I have to agree with you on this one. Crede definitely had a better year defensively last year. Who cares about the Gold Glove anyways? I'm sure Chavez would trade in all of his gold gloves for that nice WS ring that Joe has.

I want Mags back
11-02-2006, 05:44 PM
torii hunter:angry:

Sox Fan 35
11-02-2006, 05:48 PM
What about Mackowiak?

soxchick20
11-02-2006, 05:55 PM
The thing that pisses me off isn't that my guy doesn't get some stupid award, it's knowing that 30 years from now, everyone will talk about the great Chavez' defense, and very few will know anything about Crede's D (that is assuming he doesn't end up with the Yankees or Red Sox)

Definitely agree.

Award or no award, Crede was awesome.

Oblong
11-02-2006, 06:00 PM
Don't sweat it. Baseball fans know. Like another person said, these awards were won in April. Using Gold Gloves to judge a defender is dubious. An excellent defender will probably miss 1, maybe 2 early on in their career. But if they are good enough to win 2 or 3 after that they will. Then they'll win another 3 or 4 which they probably don't deserve.

Jeter's a surprise. He's mediocre, at the very best, at shortstop.

Well... maybe it's not a surprise.

chisoxmike
11-02-2006, 06:10 PM
What a ****ing joke!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


TORII HUNTER??????? Please.:rolleyes:

The awards are for THIS year!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

****!!!!!!

ND_Sox_Fan
11-02-2006, 06:16 PM
What a ****ing joke!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


TORII HUNTER??????? Please.:rolleyes:

The awards are for THIS year!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

****!!!!!!

Agree 100% - he wasn't the same fielder this year with the broken ankle.

oeo
11-02-2006, 06:23 PM
I'm more surprised Hunter won than Chavez. Torii looked rather average out there this year. Gary Matthews, Jr., anyone?

Yeah, what the hell? He was awful out there this year.

It's a good thing this award is accurate.

There needs to be some sort of computation to determine the winner, enough of this vote for whoever is popular crap.

1951Campbell
11-02-2006, 06:27 PM
The other award winners were:

SP - Kenny Rogers


Gold Glove, Brown Hand.

Beer Can Chicken
11-02-2006, 06:40 PM
Gold Gloves are a complete joke. Take for example 1999 when Rafael Palmeiro won the GG at 1st. He played 135 games at DH and 28 games at 1B. Yes, you read that correctly.
Once a player wins it for the first time they continually win it based on reputaion. It sucks.

Frontman
11-02-2006, 06:45 PM
Considering they awarded GG to one cheater and another suspected 'roid user, I hold very little value to the GG awards. Thankfully, it was another of the the Tiger pitchers who cost them the Series by not knowing how to throw to a ball around the infield that won it, or else I'd really be bugged.


Front

mjmcend
11-02-2006, 07:15 PM
Here is some love for Crede and Uribe from an objective outside source.

Per Rotoworld:


Ivan Rodriguez won his 12th Gold Glove in balloting announced Thursday.
Also winning were 1B Mark Teixeira (2nd), 2B Mark Grudzielanek (1st), 3B Eric Chavez (6th), SS Derek Jeter (3rd), OF Torii Hunter (6th), OF Vernon Wells (3rd), OF Ichiro Suzuki (6th) and P Kenny Rogers (5th). Each of those last six players have now won at least three in a row. Hunter and Chavez strictly coasted on reputation alone this year -- Gary Matthews Jr. was just one of the center fielders better than Hunter and Joe Crede and Brandon Inge were better choices at third. Jeter was as ridiculous of a pick as ever. Juan Uribe should be a two-time winner right now, if only because Alex Gonzalez was limited to 111 games. Some credit should be given to Rodriguez. Most guys up in that territory get their strictly on reputation, but Rodriguez was obviously the best catcher in the AL this year. Grudzy is also a nice choice. Mark Ellis is probably the best when healthy, but he only played in 124 games. We figured Luis Castillo would get the nod. Nov. 2 - 6:45 pm et

TheOldRoman
11-02-2006, 07:36 PM
Of those 9, only three are deserving: Roidriguez, Ichiro, and Wells.

Rogers is very overrated, Grudzielanek is a joke, Hunter has lost three steps, and he was overrated to begin with. He was never a great CF, he just played really deep so he could rob homers. It has started hurting him lately.

Of course, the biggest joke of all is Jeter at shortstop. He is one of the worst defensive SS in the American League. I honestly would rather have Jose Valentin at SS from a defensive standpoint. Sure, Jose is going to sidearm 20-30 into the firstbase stands, but he will get to loads more than Jeter.

beckett21
11-02-2006, 08:08 PM
Maybe I missed it, but any word on how many votes Tony Batista got? :cool:

These awards are meaningless. They are solely based upon past reputation. Year after year, it's the same old story. :rolleyes:

EMachine10
11-02-2006, 09:20 PM
BA was so solid in the outfield....and that was a somewhat serious reply. hopefully within the next few years, he can be recognized as one of the top defensive outfielders in the game. yes, he has a little bit of work to do out there, but he is certainly on his way.

ChiSoxGirl
11-02-2006, 09:49 PM
Chavez won again. :rolleyes:

Surprise me. Eh, if we have to find a positive in this shaft, it's just more of that "Under the Radar" stuff we all know and love so well!

FedEx227
11-02-2006, 09:56 PM
Crede and Inge both had better Zone Ratings and Range Factors. No contest in my mind. But Chavez and Jeter dive more, so hey... the same people that vote for this garbage are the ones that claim Aaron Rowand was twice the centerfielder Brian Anderson was.


Oh, and btw... before I get a "GO BACK TO STAT LAND" crap.

Zone Rating: The percentage of balls fielded by a player in his typical defensive "zone," So basically with Crede having a .790... 79% of the balls hit into his "zone" (3rd base foul line to SS) he fielded. Compared to the 76.5% that Chavez did. It's a very great stat that shows just how many balls guys get to.

Range Factor: Range Factor ((PO + A) divided by innings). The amount of Put-Outs and Assists divided by innings. So saying that Chavez had more putouts is great and dandy, but per inning average Crede was much better. Crede came in at 3.24 while Chavez 2.98.

Of course, the biggest joke of all is Jeter at shortstop. He is one of the worst defensive SS in the American League. I honestly would rather have Jose Valentin at SS from a defensive standpoint. Sure, Jose is going to sidearm 20-30 into the firstbase stands, but he will get to loads more than Jeter.
God is that ever the truth. Jeter's Zone rating puts him at 20/25th in the league for everyday shortstops, only people below him are Betancourt, Berrora, Felipe Lopez and Hanley Ramirez. He also comes in DEAD last in Range Factor for AL Shortstops. Gold glove right there!

ChiSox14305635
11-02-2006, 11:57 PM
Gary Matthews Jr. was just one of the center fielders better than Hunter and Joe Crede and Brandon Inge were better choices at third. Jeter was as ridiculous of a pick as ever. Juan Uribe should be a two-time winner right now

QFT.

Jeter, Hunter, & Chavez winning is nothing short of a joke.

Huisj
11-02-2006, 11:58 PM
Crede and Inge both had better Zone Ratings and Range Factors. No contest in my mind. But Chavez and Jeter dive more, so hey... the same people that vote for this garbage are the ones that claim Aaron Rowand was twice the centerfielder Brian Anderson was.


Oh, and btw... before I get a "GO BACK TO STAT LAND" crap.

Zone Rating: The percentage of balls fielded by a player in his typical defensive "zone," So basically with Crede having a .790... 79% of the balls hit into his "zone" (3rd base foul line to SS) he fielded. Compared to the 76.5% that Chavez did. It's a very great stat that shows just how many balls guys get to.

Range Factor: Range Factor ((PO + A) divided by innings). The amount of Put-Outs and Assists divided by innings. So saying that Chavez had more putouts is great and dandy, but per inning average Crede was much better. Crede came in at 3.24 while Chavez 2.98.


God is that ever the truth. Jeter's Zone rating puts him at 20/25th in the league for everyday shortstops, only people below him are Betancourt, Berrora, Felipe Lopez and Hanley Ramirez. He also comes in DEAD last in Range Factor for AL Shortstops. Gold glove right there!

The ironic thing about that last statement is that Betancourt is gaining a little bit of attention as an outstanding fielder too. It seems to come down to how hard you make the plays you make look. If you make hard plays look easy, you don't have a chance. If you make every play look crazy and frantic, then they'll love you.

RadioheadRocks
11-03-2006, 12:04 AM
"I'd like to thank the academy for this gold glove award because I really love helping people and want to make the world a better place, and I don't eat meat 'cause I'm a veterinarian." :roflmao: :roflmao: :roflmao: :roflmao:

... and that's all I have to say about this ridiculous sham of an award.

RadioheadRocks
11-03-2006, 12:12 AM
Who's going to present Kenny Rogers with HIS Gold Glove... Joey Greco? :cool:

thomas35forever
11-03-2006, 01:06 AM
Somebody said on here (I think) that the award is Chavez's to lose. Apparently, he hasn't lost it yet.

itsnotrequired
11-03-2006, 07:25 AM
Maybe I missed it, but any word on how many votes Tony Batista got? :cool:

These awards are meaningless. They are solely based upon past reputation. Year after year, it's the same old story. :rolleyes:

...and there's the answer. Unless a guy totally clowns it, he is a lock for the award. Even a mediocre performance will put a player in the running if they won it last year. Also, don't forget that a decent bat is necessary to win a defensive award. That's what bugs me the most about the GG.

Maybe Crede will win the Silver Slugger because of his glove work.

:rolleyes:

alohafri
11-03-2006, 07:28 AM
What a sham. Chavez won again. :rolleyes:

The other award winners were:

SP - Kenny Rogers
C - Ivan Rodriguez
1B - Mark Teixeira
2B - Mark Grudzielanek
SS - Derek Jeter
OF - Ichiro
OF - Vernon Wells
OF - Torii Hunter

Of course Rogers won it. The man is loaded with stickum.

Oblong
11-03-2006, 07:30 AM
The ironic thing about that last statement is that Betancourt is gaining a little bit of attention as an outstanding fielder too. It seems to come down to how hard you make the plays you make look. If you make hard plays look easy, you don't have a chance. If you make every play look crazy and frantic, then they'll love you.


Jim Edmonds

C-Dawg
11-03-2006, 07:35 AM
On ESPN, as they were telling who all the winners are, right after they mentioned Jeter, they said "yes, only one Yankee, and no Red Sox". What was that? Do they think we'll lose interest of there aren't enough Red Sox?

Jurr
11-03-2006, 07:40 AM
Crede and Inge both had better Zone Ratings and Range Factors. No contest in my mind. But Chavez and Jeter dive more, so hey... the same people that vote for this garbage are the ones that claim Aaron Rowand was twice the centerfielder Brian Anderson was.


Oh, and btw... before I get a "GO BACK TO STAT LAND" crap.

Zone Rating: The percentage of balls fielded by a player in his typical defensive "zone," So basically with Crede having a .790... 79% of the balls hit into his "zone" (3rd base foul line to SS) he fielded. Compared to the 76.5% that Chavez did. It's a very great stat that shows just how many balls guys get to.

Range Factor: Range Factor ((PO + A) divided by innings). The amount of Put-Outs and Assists divided by innings. So saying that Chavez had more putouts is great and dandy, but per inning average Crede was much better. Crede came in at 3.24 while Chavez 2.98.


God is that ever the truth. Jeter's Zone rating puts him at 20/25th in the league for everyday shortstops, only people below him are Betancourt, Berrora, Felipe Lopez and Hanley Ramirez. He also comes in DEAD last in Range Factor for AL Shortstops. Gold glove right there!
Or, we could look at stats like errors and see that Crede doubled Chavez. Or fielding percentage.

See, stats that are derivative of other stats (zone/range/blah blah blah) put so much other crap into the picture.

If you watch Chavez play third, he's awesome. He can really pick it, though I agree that Crede is ridiculous, as well.

Chavez had a better year at third. Period. I know because we're Sox fans we have the bias, but let's not let it get out of hand.

Now, guys like Torii Hunter and Jeter??? Bah.

stl_sox_fan
11-03-2006, 07:42 AM
Gold Glove, Brown Hand.

:D:

Oblong
11-03-2006, 07:55 AM
Or, we could look at stats like errors and see that Crede doubled Chavez. Or fielding percentage.

See, stats that are derivative of other stats (zone/range/blah blah blah) put so much other crap into the picture.

If you watch Chavez play third, he's awesome. He can really pick it, though I agree that Crede is ridiculous, as well.

Chavez had a better year at third. Period. I know because we're Sox fans we have the bias, but let's not let it get out of hand.

Now, guys like Torii Hunter and Jeter??? Bah.

Errors and fielding percentage are among the worst stats you can use to judge a player's defense. That's probably why Jeter won. If you are slow and have no range then you'll only get to the balls that are easy plays to make, thus you won't make a lot of errors. Guys with a lot of range probably make more errors because they have more opportunities to make errors and they get to balls that have a higher degree of difficulty, increasing the chance for errors.

Jurr
11-03-2006, 08:01 AM
Errors and fielding percentage are among the worst stats you can use to judge a player's defense. That's probably why Jeter won. If you are slow and have no range then you'll only get to the balls that are easy plays to make, thus you won't make a lot of errors. Guys with a lot of range probably make more errors because they have more opportunities to make errors and they get to balls that have a higher degree of difficulty, increasing the chance for errors.
No doubt. But, my friend, you're talking about Eric Chavez.

I've got that MLB package, and I watched a ton of Oakland games after Sox games finished, just to see the Hurt play. Chavez is very salty at third.

Like I said. Jeter and Hunter? No way. Chavez? Tip your cap.

ode to veeck
11-03-2006, 08:40 AM
I for once have to disagree with many of the posts. I take nothing away from Crede, and do believe he deserves to win a GG, but Chavez did have a great year with the glove, as did Mike Lowell. In several key categories he was better than Joe.


CHavez had a good year with the glove!? Like the playoff muffs. Sorry, being in the bay area I see a lot of Chavez and he doesn't compare to Joe with the leather

FedEx227
11-03-2006, 08:46 AM
No doubt. But, my friend, you're talking about Eric Chavez.

I've got that MLB package, and I watched a ton of Oakland games after Sox games finished, just to see the Hurt play. Chavez is very salty at third.

Like I said. Jeter and Hunter? No way. Chavez? Tip your cap.

See using errors as a judgment is completely illogical because they are decisional. The games official scorer dictates what is an error and whats not. If a bouncing ball hits Jeter in the chest, do they rule it an error because he didn't back up or do they cite the huge bounce is took and how quick the ball was hit. It's very judgmental. How with a judgmental stat can you put everyone on a level playing field?

That's why I showed you two stats that judges every single person on the exact same scale and they clearly showed that Crede was better than Chavez. Even your argument about fielding percentage didn't make sense, because Zone Rating is in effect fielding percentage, but it dictates balls hit into your area not just the ones you make plays on... so it limits people without range or quick instincts that let balls fly through the gaps.

It's not bias at all. Oakland is probably my 4th-5th favorite team, but the fact is Chavez was clearly outplayed by Crede, Lowell and Brandon Inge this year.

Oblong
11-03-2006, 08:51 AM
Here's another take. (http://www.baseballthinkfactory.org/files/dialed_in/discussion/2006_gold_glove_winners_as_i_see_it/)

He's got Uribe at #1 for SS.

russ99
11-03-2006, 09:09 AM
Same story as last year. The Gold Glove award is a popularity contest.

Actually, it's worse than that. It's a popularity contest where an award meant to go to the top defensive player is eventually determined by how large a player's offensive numbers are.

Don't feel bad, several deserving candidates get shafted every season. We all know Crede really deserves it.

palehozenychicty
11-03-2006, 10:19 AM
Like there are any surprises. But to be real, at the minimum, Michael Young should have won, since he is the best balance of stick and glove among starting shortstops. If Uribe can improve his plate discipline (cross fingers and die:D: ) just a little, he may surprise with a win. Because he is the best defensive shortstop in the AL. Hands down.

thedudeabides
11-03-2006, 10:36 AM
Here's another take. (http://www.baseballthinkfactory.org/files/dialed_in/discussion/2006_gold_glove_winners_as_i_see_it/)

He's got Uribe at #1 for SS.

...and Pods third in LF.

Hangar18
11-03-2006, 10:42 AM
Ive just about had it up to HERE with Joe Crede getting the shaft year in and year out like this. After being in the World Series, and hearing sportswriters and mediots remarking "wow, I didnt know Crede was gold-glove caliber", I figured he was a lock this year. Sick of the Media.

itsnotrequired
11-03-2006, 10:43 AM
Ive just about had it up to HERE with Joe Crede getting the shaft year in and year out like this. After being in the World Series, and hearing sportswriters and mediots remarking "wow, I didnt know Crede was gold-glove caliber", I figured he was a lock this year. Sick of the Media.

:roflmao: :roflmao: :roflmao:

Hangar's style of posting has my LOLing 99% of the time.

Hangar18
11-03-2006, 10:46 AM
:roflmao: :roflmao: :roflmao:

Hangar's style of posting has my LOLing 99% of the time.


Thanks :cool:

itsnotrequired
11-03-2006, 10:48 AM
Thanks :cool:

The uppercase "here", the bold "Sick of the Media"...it had it all.

D. TODD
11-03-2006, 10:57 AM
Or, we could look at stats like errors and see that Crede doubled Chavez. Or fielding percentage.

See, stats that are derivative of other stats (zone/range/blah blah blah) put so much other crap into the picture.

If you watch Chavez play third, he's awesome. He can really pick it, though I agree that Crede is ridiculous, as well.

Chavez had a better year at third. Period. I know because we're Sox fans we have the bias, but let's not let it get out of hand.

Now, guys like Torii Hunter and Jeter??? Bah. I agree zone rating, and range factors are educated guesses at best. They do not take into account the type of balls that are hit "into the range" how hard it was hit, any tough hops, etc. A official scorer is a subjective call at times also on giving an error or a hit, but these range guides and zone scores are not any better.

The problem with picking a gold glove winner is that you need to see a guy on a consistant basis to get a true feeling for his defensive performance and nobody can do that with each player at each position, so they rely on statistics and reputation which are both poor measuring sticks.

Lip Man 1
11-03-2006, 12:24 PM
Hangar:

Excuse me...but aren't the Gold Gloves voted on by the 'players' themselves?

Lip

Hangar18
11-03-2006, 12:29 PM
Hangar:

Excuse me...but aren't the Gold Gloves voted on by the 'players' themselves?

Lip



I know that Joe Crede cant watch every other 3rd baseman in the league, hes too busy being a 3rd baseman himself......

TDog
11-03-2006, 12:33 PM
Hangar:

Excuse me...but aren't the Gold Gloves voted on by the 'players' themselves?

Lip


Managers and coaches, not the players, vote for the Gold Gloves.

Lip Man 1
11-03-2006, 12:36 PM
T-Dog:

Thanks...I knew it wasn't 'the media,' but didn't know who actually did it. Appreciate you clearing that one up before the conspiracy nuts got rolling.

Lip

sox84
11-03-2006, 12:49 PM
Sorry, guys. He had half the errors and a better fielding percentage. He had more putouts and more double plays turned. And, he's a damn solid third baseman. Crede is awesome, but Chavez had a better year. Crede should've won it last year, but Chavez was the easy pick here.

I agree. Did notice that Chavez gave props to Joe and Lowell when they interviewed him..

Fake Chet Lemon
11-03-2006, 12:53 PM
Crede winning the Sporting News award as AL's best 3rd baseman is way better than this anyway, the players vote for that one.

I just don't get why those don't get more pub than they do?

Hangar18
11-03-2006, 12:54 PM
I just don't get why those don't get more pub than they do?


You inadvertantly answered Lip's query here ..........
stupid Media.

spiffie
11-03-2006, 01:24 PM
See using errors as a judgment is completely illogical because they are decisional. The games official scorer dictates what is an error and whats not. If a bouncing ball hits Jeter in the chest, do they rule it an error because he didn't back up or do they cite the huge bounce is took and how quick the ball was hit. It's very judgmental. How with a judgmental stat can you put everyone on a level playing field?

That's why I showed you two stats that judges every single person on the exact same scale and they clearly showed that Crede was better than Chavez. Even your argument about fielding percentage didn't make sense, because Zone Rating is in effect fielding percentage, but it dictates balls hit into your area not just the ones you make plays on... so it limits people without range or quick instincts that let balls fly through the gaps.

It's not bias at all. Oakland is probably my 4th-5th favorite team, but the fact is Chavez was clearly outplayed by Crede, Lowell and Brandon Inge this year.
If it takes pretend stats to show that Crede is better then obviously he must not be, since real stats failed to prove your point. Back to your spreadsheets!

BadBobbyJenks
11-03-2006, 03:01 PM
Chavez made 5 errors....He is a gold glover I dont see why people here bash him

TheVulture
11-03-2006, 04:19 PM
What a sham. Chavez won again. :rolleyes:

The other award winners were:

SP - Kenny Rogers
C - Ivan Rodriguez
1B - Mark Teixeira
2B - Mark Grudzielanek
SS - Derek Jeter
OF - Ichiro
OF - Vernon Wells
OF - Torii Hunter

Considering Grudz won at 2B I'd have say Iguchi got the shaft as well.

FedEx227
11-03-2006, 04:56 PM
If it takes pretend stats to show that Crede is better then obviously he must not be, since real stats failed to prove your point. Back to your spreadsheets!

Yeah not sure if you remember but on the 5th day god created RBI, HR, AVG, WINS and Fielding Percentage, thus they are the only acceptable stats to look at.

ewokpelts
11-03-2006, 05:01 PM
Chavez made 5 errors....He is a gold glover I dont see why people here bash himaside from crede making 5 more errors than chavex, all his fielding stats are superior...AND he played more games and had more chances at plays....this is no different than torii hunter winning last year even though he was hurt almost all season

Oblong
11-03-2006, 08:50 PM
To judge fielding you should look at all the available stats and form your judgement from the group. Each one has it's own defaults. But if you see a guy near the top in most of them, then that tells me he's the best one. From the stats I've looked at it oculd have gone to Crede, Inge, or Lowell without much of an argument.

FedEx227
11-04-2006, 12:30 AM
To judge fielding you should look at all the available stats and form your judgement from the group. Each one has it's own defaults. But if you see a guy near the top in most of them, then that tells me he's the best one. From the stats I've looked at it oculd have gone to Crede, Inge, or Lowell without much of an argument.

Exactly those three seem to be towards the top of most of them outside of errors (which as already explained is a horrible judgment for fielders).

TaylorStSox
11-04-2006, 02:22 PM
Jeter isn't mediocre defensively. He flat out sucks! I hate the GG.

TDog
11-04-2006, 02:26 PM
Chavez made 5 errors....He is a gold glover I dont see why people here bash him


So you have watched Chavez play third base and you've watched Crede play third base and you honestly believe Chavez is the better fielder?

BadBobbyJenks
11-04-2006, 07:25 PM
So you have watched Chavez play third base and you've watched Crede play third base and you honestly believe Chavez is the better fielder?



Thats not what I said, but people here make it seem like the guy sucks. He is a great fielder and has been his whole career. And when you have won it 5 times, Joe Crede cant over take him with double digit errors.

FedEx227
11-04-2006, 07:43 PM
Thats not what I said, but people here make it seem like the guy sucks. He is a great fielder and has been his whole career. And when you have won it 5 times, Joe Crede cant over take him with double digit errors.

Which is exactly the problem with the award. Once you win it, you never relinquish it which is complete garbage. Torii Hunter was in no way, shape or form deserving of it last year. Derek Jeter should never have touched the award in the first place and now he'll never give it up. It's a complete popularity/better hitter contest and its complete BS.

And if double-digit errors makes Crede a bad fielder then he should really stop attempting to go for hard balls, quick liners, bad bounces, hot shots... just let those go to left field that way he won't get errors and can maybe "take" the award away from Chavez. Awesome.

Oblong
11-04-2006, 08:56 PM
Do you guys remember Deivi Cruz? He used to play shortstop for the Tigers and was an absolute statue. The Tigers radio guy used say "Cruz Control has it... throw to first". He actually thought Cruz was a good fielder because he hardly made errors. It was because the guy was slower than mud and only got to the easiest balls. He was from the Islands somewhere and had pretty bad teeth when they signed him. So they fixed those up for him when he got to the bigs. He made up for the lost time of being able to eat good meals because he reached Tony Gwynn territory real fast.

BadBobbyJenks
11-05-2006, 12:28 AM
Which is exactly the problem with the award. Once you win it, you never relinquish it which is complete garbage. Torii Hunter was in no way, shape or form deserving of it last year. Derek Jeter should never have touched the award in the first place and now he'll never give it up. It's a complete popularity/better hitter contest and its complete BS.

And if double-digit errors makes Crede a bad fielder then he should really stop attempting to go for hard balls, quick liners, bad bounces, hot shots... just let those go to left field that way he won't get errors and can maybe "take" the award away from Chavez. Awesome.



Again someone twisting what I said, Who the **** is saying hes a bad fielder. And what does tori hunter have to do with chavez and crede?

FedEx227
11-05-2006, 12:23 PM
Because your logic doesn't make sense.

Chavez has less errors thus he is a great fielder.

Yes, hes good, but he's not deserving of the award when there were 3, maybe even 4 guys more deserving, who despite having more errors, fielded more balls and had more assists/putouts per game.

I only used Torii Hunter because Chavez has hit that "elite" point now where no matter what he does he'll win a Gold Glove.

3rdgensoxfan
11-05-2006, 02:02 PM
BA was so solid in the outfield....and that was a somewhat serious reply. hopefully within the next few years, he can be recognized as one of the top defensive outfielders in the game. yes, he has a little bit of work to do out there, but he is certainly on his way.

He makes it look too easy. He'd be lucky to win one.

soxfanreggie
11-05-2006, 05:01 PM
Joe was more than qualified for the award, but he has a World Series ring, something many gold-glovers won't ever win.

TDog
11-05-2006, 07:17 PM
Thats not what I said, but people here make it seem like the guy sucks. He is a great fielder and has been his whole career. And when you have won it 5 times, Joe Crede cant over take him with double digit errors.


And Chavez, especially getting fewer chances than Crede, probably won't record double-digit errors if official scorers are reluctant to give him errors that they would other third basemen because he wins the Gold Glove every year.

Many errors are subjective. Official scoring is inconsistent, and often the players involved in a misplay determine how it is scored.

WizardsofOzzie
11-05-2006, 09:39 PM
And if double-digit errors makes Crede a bad fielder then he should really stop attempting to go for hard balls, quick liners, bad bounces, hot shots... just let those go to left field that way he won't get errors and can maybe "take" the award away from Chavez. Awesome.
Ding Ding Ding Ding, people look at errors way too much to judge fielding. Not saying that errors don't show how good a fielder you are but you can't focus solely on errors and gauge who deserves the GG......and its been said many times before, gold gloves are a joke of an award anyways

D. TODD
11-06-2006, 08:54 AM
Do you guys remember Deivi Cruz? He used to play shortstop for the Tigers and was an absolute statue. The Tigers radio guy used say "Cruz Control has it... throw to first". He actually thought Cruz was a good fielder because he hardly made errors. It was because the guy was slower than mud and only got to the easiest balls. He was from the Islands somewhere and had pretty bad teeth when they signed him. So they fixed those up for him when he got to the bigs. He made up for the lost time of being able to eat good meals because he reached Tony Gwynn territory real fast.
Cal Ripken & Ryan Sandberg benefited greatly from their limited range as well. They were solid as a rock with the chances they did get to though. While The Jose Lind's of the world made more mistakes they also made more plays.

soxlover
11-06-2006, 10:10 AM
I also remember people saying Royce Clayton was a good defensive SS. He had absolutely NO range.

Nelson Foxtrot
11-09-2006, 11:12 PM
Since Chavez keeps winning and he's one of Beane's boys, I'm curious as to what everybody thinks of Win Shares? I've seen lots of statheads and FOBB's elsewhere use Win Shares to rank offense and pitching, and they seem to consider Defensive Win Shares the best stat to judge defense. Yet, they never use it to give credit to Sox players.

From The Hardball Times list of individual Defensive Win Shares:
2006 AL 3B:
Crede 7.0
Lowell 6.6
Chavez 6.2

2005 AL 3B:
Figgins 5.5
Chavez 5.2
Crede 4.7
Considering Figgins played 158 games and Chavez 160, Crede's numbers in only 132 would project to 5.6 over 158 games.

2005 All Positions in Both Leagues:
Matheny 11.1
Ausmus 10.4
Uribe 9.3
The next closest non-catcher is fellow AL SS Peralta at 8.1, a big drop, so the case could be made that Uribe not only deserved the Gold Glove in 2005, but that he was also the most valuable defensive player in the AL, and most valuable non-catcher in all of baseball. Uribe finished fourth this year, but seemed to have his head out of the game at times, and only played 132 games.

Konerko was also 2nd best fielding AL 1B in 2005 according to this, and Rowand was the most valuable defensive outfielder in the majors.

While I'm playing around with this,
Pitching Win Shares AL 2005:
Buehrle 23.2
Santana 23.1
Garland 21.1
Colon 19.2
Garcia 18.6
Contreras 18.2
So that gives us the most valuable pitcher in the AL and four of the top six last year. Halladay finished second to Santana this year, so it's not really biased toward winning teams.

I know people don't trust the Bill James stats, or don't fully understand them (even I don't and I'm the one posting one), but sometimes they do reflect what we saw with our own eyes, that pitching and defense won us a championship a year ago, and I think that lends them credibility.

In terms of offense, Konerko, Iguchi, and Thome were all ranked 2nd in the AL at their positions in 2006, while Dye was the third best offensive OF. Anderson was in a three-way tie with Rios and Ichiro for 6th best defensive outfielder.

This year's AL GG winners under this scenario would be:
C Rodriguez
1B Overbay/Swisher/Sexson tie
2B Ellis (Grudz is 9th)
3B Crede
SS Peralta (Jeter is ranked 10th)
OF Granderson
OF Wells
OF Hunter (I guess he's Mr. Clutch...during the regular season)

chisoxjtrain
11-10-2006, 12:26 AM
This year's AL GG winners under this scenario would be:
C Rodriguez
1B Overbay/Swisher/Sexson tie
2B Ellis (Grudz is 9th)
3B Crede
SS Peralta (Jeter is ranked 10th)
OF Granderson
OF Wells
OF Hunter (I guess he's Mr. Clutch...during the regular season)[/QUOTE]

i can respect this list

HammerSox
11-11-2006, 01:12 PM
Lets all vote 5000 times for Crede as Defensive Player of the Year. He is a top 10 finalist. Go to this link to vote. You can vote around 26 times per minute. So that is only roughly 3 hours of your time to vote 5000 times. Get-ER-Done

http://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/NASA...tyib/index.jsp

Also, who takes a back to back gold glover at SS and moves him to 3B? The dump ass Yankees that's who.