PDA

View Full Version : KW comments on Lowe


voodoochile
03-04-2002, 01:42 PM
Okay, they closed the other thread just as I finished typing my response, so to get back to the original topic, here are my thoughts...

Are Sox fans ever happy? When we traded for Ritchie many people were screaming, "Crappy trade! Way to much to give up! I want Lowe or Fogg or Kip back (depending on which they thought was the best pitcher or who had the most upside)". Those who favored the trade (like me) pointed out that Kip was an underachiever, Fogg had no place on the team either in AAA in the majors and Lowe was probably not going to make the team, so the trade looked alright. That seemed to molify people who were upset, but only barely. Now, KW comes out and confirms that Lowe probably wasn't going to make the team and he is getting crucified for saying that. Give me a break... You cannot have it both ways. KW got Ritchie for what he considered to be expendable players.

Lowe wasn't going to make the team and we got Ritchie for him and two prospects. That is the official version of what happened. The rest doesn't matter. It may be that KW is merely spinning to shut up the first group who says we gave up too much. I mean Kip and Fogg and a player we weren't going to keep is pretty damn cheap for a veteran, innings-eating, top-of-the-rotation pitcher. You all scream and scream and scream, but no one knows how this trade will work out. Sometimes I think we are just looking for an excuse to crucify Sox management.

I am not saying this well, but to summarize:

1)If you think we gave up too much, how do you feel now, realizing Lowe wasn't going to make the team?

2)If you thought Lowe deserved to make the team and wasn't going to, don't you feel better finding out we got Ritchie for him?

3)Maybe it is all just spin...

BTW, I completely disagree with Lisa's statement that Carlos Lee sucks. How can you make that judgement on such a young player who has shown a huge amount of ability in his short career? Does 3 months of bad fielding and suspect hitting really overrule the other 9 months of his career? Sox fans need to wait until the end of this season to make any judgement about Lee. It is way to early to do otherwise.

FarWestChicago
03-04-2002, 01:47 PM
Nice restart, VC. :smile:

voodoochile
03-04-2002, 01:48 PM
Originally posted by FarWestChicago
Nice restart, VC. :smile:

Great Post, FWC... :D:

Lisa
03-04-2002, 01:54 PM
I base my impression on Lee's suckiness on this: he's developin some really bad habits. Now, lots of players get into bad habits their first couple years and then work on them. But - and I know I'm going to get hit for this - Lee doesn't strike me as the sharpest crayon in the box. And in order to break bad habits developed in your 2nd-3rd year of pro ball, you gotta have some self-awareness and a lot of self-control. I don't see these qualities in Lee, or at least I don't see them in the quantities needed. I genuinely think he wants to play better, and I think he will work hard. But I don't think he has the mental control necessary to do so. I could be wrong, I suppose, and I hope I am, because we seem to be stuck with the guy. But the mistakes he's making are fundamental, and LF, compared to all the other positions, is the easiest to play. If he can't succeed there, where can he? Plus, his approach at the plate is steadily worsening. T the end of 2000 and throughout 2001, he got worse and worse. He hit well at the beginning of 2001, but that's to be expected as pitchers get used to hitters. But with the unbalanced schedule, Lee has even less time to play on that, and he pulls EVERY PITCH (esp. when the Sox are struggling). I don't see the development tools there that he would need.

voodoochile
03-04-2002, 02:04 PM
Originally posted by Lisa
I base my impression on Lee's suckiness on this: he's developin some really bad habits. Now, lots of players get into bad habits their first couple years and then work on them. But - and I know I'm going to get hit for this - Lee doesn't strike me as the sharpest crayon in the box. And in order to break bad habits developed in your 2nd-3rd year of pro ball, you gotta have some self-awareness and a lot of self-control. I don't see these qualities in Lee, or at least I don't see them in the quantities needed. I genuinely think he wants to play better, and I think he will work hard. But I don't think he has the mental control necessary to do so. I could be wrong, I suppose, and I hope I am, because we seem to be stuck with the guy. But the mistakes he's making are fundamental, and LF, compared to all the other positions, is the easiest to play. If he can't succeed there, where can he? Plus, his approach at the plate is steadily worsening. T the end of 2000 and throughout 2001, he got worse and worse. He hit well at the beginning of 2001, but that's to be expected as pitchers get used to hitters. But with the unbalanced schedule, Lee has even less time to play on that, and he pulls EVERY PITCH (esp. when the Sox are struggling). I don't see the development tools there that he would need.

The stuff about Lee's intelligence seems like Pure speculation, or do you have some inside information. Besides even Carlos admits he stunk it up last year in the second half. He did have enough smarts to play winter ball to try and get back on track though. However if there is an issue with concentration, maybe they can get him a prescription for Ritalin or the like...

Last year was tough on the whole team, because of all the hype and then the injuries. Hope to see you posting a mea culpa in mid-July or so this year, but that isn't because I want to see you apologize, rather because I (like you) want Lee to have a great year...

Dadawg_77
03-04-2002, 02:08 PM
I agree with Voodo on this one. Lowe is a dime a dozen type of pitcher. You can find a cheap one every year if you look.

Lee is an question mark. Will he make a great defenive LF? No, but he is still learning how to play OF. Can he become a Albert (Joey) Belle type of LF? Yes. Does he has value to Sox besides bait in a trade? Yes, if he can get his bat to come around, you can play him in LF till Frank desides to retire or starts to lose it. Then move Lee to DH, LTP to left and Harris to center (assuming Hummel gets the 2nd base job next year). Now could you get a great SP for Lee, most likly not. You could get a avg to good SP for him, but we landed that with Richie.

Randar68
03-04-2002, 02:24 PM
Originally posted by Lisa
and he pulls EVERY PITCH (esp. when the Sox are struggling). I don't see the development tools there that he would need.


Did you just start watching Sox baseball, or did you block out the previous 2 seasons to last?

Carlos was our best situational hitters and hit to all fields well. As is the case with many young players when thrust into a more prominent role, he struggled in Frank's absense, and it was clear to me that he was trying to be Frank. His power and abilities come naturally, and he was clearly forcing it, especially at the plate, last year.

kermittheefrog
03-04-2002, 02:56 PM
Ya know what's really cool? The Stats Scouting Notebook. It has these cool little charts that show where on the field players got their hits. So I took a look at the Sox hitters charts and Lee seems to do a pretty good job of hitting the ball all over the field. If you don't like Lee for pulling the ball what about Jose? Jose is a fierce pull hitter. Konerko is pretty big on pulling the ball too. No offense Lisa but you seem to have some irrational bias agaisnt Carlos and I'm not saying this as his biggest fan.

czalgosz
03-04-2002, 03:00 PM
Originally posted by kermittheefrog
Ya know what's really cool? The Stats Scouting Notebook. It has these cool little charts that show where on the field players got their hits. So I took a look at the Sox hitters charts and Lee seems to do a pretty good job of hitting the ball all over the field. If you don't like Lee for pulling the ball what about Jose? Jose is a fierce pull hitter. Konerko is pretty big on pulling the ball too. No offense Lisa but you seem to have some irrational bias agaisnt Carlos and I'm not saying this as his biggest fan.

Valentin is a huge pull hitter. It's almost ridiculous.

I understand the criticism - when Lee is trying to pull the ball, that's when he's at his least effective.

I like Carlos Lee, and I think that he'll be a very good hitter. I wouldn't mind it terribly if the Sox traded him, but they would have to get a lot of value in return.

But I already talked about this about 6 months ago.

LongDistanceFan
03-04-2002, 03:32 PM
everybody knows i am for trading lee........... but i won't rehash that agrument.......... only to say if we get what he is valued and more. i think leifer can do the job that lee been doing....... i think we should just eat claytons contract.......

but trading what we did to get ritchie, is way too much and i think everybody here agrees.....

does anybody know who this cat we got with ritchie?

kermittheefrog
03-04-2002, 03:38 PM
Originally posted by LongDistanceFan

does anybody know who this cat we got with ritchie?

Lee "Organization Depth" Evans. Hey someone has to be the backup catcher for Birmingham.

LongDistanceFan
03-04-2002, 03:48 PM
Originally posted by kermittheefrog


Lee "Organization Depth" Evans. Hey someone has to be the backup catcher for Birmingham. kw had his head up his arse again..........

doublem23
03-04-2002, 03:50 PM
Originally posted by LongDistanceFan
kw had his head up his arse again..........

Tell us something we don't know, LDF. :D:

LongDistanceFan
03-04-2002, 03:56 PM
Originally posted by doublem23


Tell us something we don't know, LDF. :D: ok..... so that was really obvious....... :) :D:

voodoochile
03-04-2002, 04:54 PM
but trading what we did to get ritchie, is way too much and i think everybody here agrees.....

Actually, no, I disagree. This was the exact point of my original post. How did we trade too much? By KW's own admission, Lowe was not going to be on the club this year, so in effect we traded Kip and Fogg for Ritchie. How is that too much?

idseer
03-04-2002, 04:59 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile


Actually, no, I disagree. This was the exact point of my original post. How did we trade too much? By KW's own admission, Lowe was not going to be on the club this year, so in effect we traded Kip and Fogg for Ritchie. How is that too much?

that's rediculous! ok we traded kip and fogg for ritchie.

then ... we GAVE lowe away ... suggesting he wasn't worth anything to anybody. what twisted logic!

voodoochile
03-04-2002, 05:11 PM
Originally posted by idseer


that's rediculous! ok we traded kip and fogg for ritchie.

then ... we GAVE lowe away ... suggesting he wasn't worth anything to anybody. what twisted logic!

Is there any guarantee that the Sox could have traded Lowe for someone else? If they didn't include Lowe, they would have had to toss in something else to get Ritchie, because Kip and Fogg clearly weren't enough. Would you rather give up a player they don't want on the team, or one they do?

If they don't include Lowe, then at this point in the year, they are stuck with him (and they don't want him) or they have to make another trade, or let him walk for nothing.

Besides, Lowe is a pretty average pitcher, talent wise. People keep saying he is starting material, but it just isn't true, IMO. Guess we'll find out, though, because he (and his two pitches) will be starting for Pittsburgh...

idseer
03-04-2002, 05:23 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile


Is there any guarantee that the Sox could have traded Lowe for someone else? If they didn't include Lowe, they would have had to toss in something else to get Ritchie, because Kip and Fogg clearly weren't enough. Would you rather give up a player they don't want on the team, or one they do?

If they don't include Lowe, then at this point in the year, they are stuck with him (and they don't want him) or they have to make another trade, or let him walk for nothing.

Besides, Lowe is a pretty average pitcher, talent wise. People keep saying he is starting material, but it just isn't true, IMO. Guess we'll find out, though, because he (and his two pitches) will be starting for Pittsburgh...

well, i think you miss the point. that many here think he is more valuable than what they got for him. he may not be your typical starter but i think what many like about him is his attitude and his versatility. i think we're saying if he HAD to go we could have gotten more. i don't think you can say he wasn't going to play for us so he just became worthless.
i think it's just very possible that at the end of the year this trade could look terrible. personally i'm hoping ritchie pans out well. at the time the trade was made i could accept it. i just think (and this was the whole point of my original post) that what KW said was ignorant ... even if it WAS just trying to sweep the issue under the rug.

as to his starting, if he DOES falter, at least pittsburg gets a very good relief pitcher in addition to kip and josh.

voodoochile
03-04-2002, 05:29 PM
This whole trade is going to come down to how Ritchie performs (obviously). If he lives up to his billing and wins ~18 games, then it was a good trade, period (IMO). There wasn't room for all the pitchers, so Kip, Lowe and Fogg were either going to be odd men out, or they were going to take up space that other pitchers deserved/earned. There was a logjam, KW tried to fix that problem in addition to getting the Sox a top of the rotation pitcher. Time will tell whether he succeeded or not...

RedPinStripes
03-04-2002, 05:57 PM
I like the idea we got ritchie and dumped kip. I was interested to see what fogg would turn out to be. But Sean Lowe didn't need to be in this trade and for KW to think he's not good enough for this team is rediculous. He was the go to guy in emergenceies and did well. We have room for josh paul and sandy but not sean? I know they are different positions, but Sean had value to this team no matter what his market value is. And that value to me was too much to give up in this trade. Kip and fogg for ritchie straight up would have been a better deal. With all the question we have with the bullpen this year, it would be nice to have a guy like Sean Lowe in the mid\long relief roll.

RedPinStripes
03-04-2002, 06:02 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
Okay, they closed the other thread just as I finished typing my response, so to get back to the original topic, here are my thoughts...


Why was the other thread closed? Did I miss a good brawl?

Jerry_Manuel
03-04-2002, 06:05 PM
Originally posted by RedPinStripes
With all the question we have with the bullpen this year, it would be nice to have a guy like Sean Lowe in the mid\long relief roll.

No offense RPS, but my head is going to explode. Lowe himself said last year that he either wanted to start with the Sox, or he wanted to be traded. He doesn't want to pitch in the bullpen anymore.

voodoochile
03-04-2002, 06:07 PM
Originally posted by RedPinStripes
I like the idea we got ritchie and dumped kip. I was interested to see what fogg would turn out to be. But Sean Lowe didn't need to be in this trade and for KW to think he's not good enough for this team is rediculous. He was the go to guy in emergenceies and did well. We have room for josh paul and sandy but not sean? I know they are different positions, but Sean had value to this team no matter what his market value is. And that value to me was too much to give up in this trade. Kip and fogg for ritchie straight up would have been a better deal. With all the question we have with the bullpen this year, it would be nice to have a guy like Sean Lowe in the mid\long relief roll.

A wishy washy wannabe and a 25 year old prospect who cannot crack the big leagues when his team's pitching has been decimated by injuries are not enough to land a pitcher of Ritchie's talent. To believe otherwise is simply deluding yourself. Ritchie is a proven commodity, Kip and Josh are not.

Daver
03-04-2002, 06:13 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile


A wishy washy wannabe and a 25 year old prospect who cannot crack the big leagues when his team's pitching has been decimated by injuries are not enough to land a pitcher of Ritchie's talent. To believe otherwise is simply deluding yourself. Ritchie is a proven commodity, Kip and Josh are not.

Good point Voodoo,Fogg was probably never going to make the big league team,as he was about twelfth on the depth chart and moving down instead of up,with the addition of Rauch and Malone.With the Sox organization he would have been a career Minor Leaguer.


But then again what the hell do I know? ©

RedPinStripes
03-04-2002, 06:13 PM
Originally posted by Jerry_Manuel


No offense RPS, but my head is going to explode. Lowe himself said last year that he either wanted to start with the Sox, or he wanted to be traded. He doesn't want to pitch in the bullpen anymore.

I didn't know that. In that case....to hell with him. He would'nt serve the purpose behind my thoughts.

RedPinStripes
03-04-2002, 06:16 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile


A wishy washy wannabe and a 25 year old prospect who cannot crack the big leagues when his team's pitching has been decimated by injuries are not enough to land a pitcher of Ritchie's talent. To believe otherwise is simply deluding yourself. Ritchie is a proven commodity, Kip and Josh are not.

Some people think Kip is the second coming of Christ. His minor league scouting report has them blinded too. They saw him as the main part of that trade for some reason.

RedPinStripes
03-04-2002, 06:19 PM
If Sean was demanding to be a starter, i guess it don't matter that he was thrown in this trade. His value is not that high on the market. I would have liked to see him in the penn though. That wasn't going to happen anyway.

RedPinStripes
03-04-2002, 06:21 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile


To believe otherwise is simply deluding yourself.

Is that a fact?

Jerry_Manuel
03-04-2002, 06:31 PM
Originally posted by RedPinStripes
If Sean was demanding to be a starter, i guess it don't matter that he was thrown in this trade. His value is not that high on the market. I would have liked to see him in the penn though. That wasn't going to happen anyway.

He was basically thrown in, it's no secret he and Williams didn't see eye to eye. I don't think the Pirates said "Unless you give us, Sean Lowe, the deal is off." I'm sure he sees the money he can make as a starter and wants to give it a try. Can't say I blame.

baggio202
03-04-2002, 07:17 PM
a couple of points..

on lee's defense...he is not still learning the outfield..he has been out there 3 years now..he stinks..and he always will...he is gonna have to hit, hit ,hit to make for the numerous routine and tough plays that other lf 's make that carlos turns into doubles and triples...to prove my point..jeff liefer never played an inning of outfield in organized baseball unitl he came up to the sox..he first game in the outfield ever was spelling maggs in rf....he is twice the defenseive player lee is..and liefer aint that good out there..if he works hard he could develop in an average defensive lf...lee is that bad...i have no hope for hin in lf...he is a prototypical DH..

and about sean lowe being easily replaced...yeah right...we will see how easy he is replaced this year...he went 17-6 the last three years...despite only starting for 1/3 of the season last year he was 3rd on the staff in wins with a 9-4 record and a mid 3 era...if thats so easily replaceable..how come he was so valuable to the sox last year...why did we keep him around for 3 years???

kw is a moron....and its these trades and decisions that are ruining this team..if this team was in the AL west..we would be picked to finish dead last..even behind anaheim...who has put together a pretty damn good club...we are going backwards from '00

LongDistanceFan
03-04-2002, 07:52 PM
Originally posted by baggio202
a couple of points..

on lee's defense...he is not still learning the outfield..he has been out there 3 years now..he stinks..and he always will...he is gonna have to hit, hit ,hit to make for the numerous routine and tough plays that other lf 's make that carlos turns into doubles and triples...to prove my point..jeff liefer never played an inning of outfield in organized baseball unitl he came up to the sox..he first game in the outfield ever was spelling maggs in rf....he is twice the defenseive player lee is..and liefer aint that good out there..if he works hard he could develop in an average defensive lf...lee is that bad...i have no hope for hin in lf...he is a prototypical DH..

and about sean lowe being easily replaced...yeah right...we will see how easy he is replaced this year...he went 17-6 the last three years...despite only starting for 1/3 of the season last year he was 3rd on the staff in wins with a 9-4 record and a mid 3 era...if thats so easily replaceable..how come he was so valuable to the sox last year...why did we keep him around for 3 years???

kw is a moron....and its these trades and decisions that are ruining this team..if this team was in the AL west..we would be picked to finish dead last..even behind anaheim...who has put together a pretty damn good club...we are going backwards from '00 that was harsh........ but i agree, lee is at best a dh, wich i said at the end of last yr......... if we needed a bat, jeff can do the job of hitting, but that does not provide us with the answer in the "of".......... frank is our dh so we are stuck with 3 dh'ers. trading lee will free that up ......

getting rid of sean is personaly for kw........ plain and simple......... all i said we gave up too much to get ritchie......... i was not a kipper fan, but the potential is still there.......

ana, atl, sea, and the sCrubs have very good farm systems, so its a matter of time before one of them puts together the total package............

baggio202
03-04-2002, 08:21 PM
Originally posted by LongDistanceFan
that was harsh........ but i agree, lee is at best a dh, wich i said at the end of last yr......... if we needed a bat, jeff can do the job of hitting, but that does not provide us with the answer in the "of".......... frank is our dh so we are stuck with 3 dh'ers. trading lee will free that up ......

getting rid of sean is personaly for kw........ plain and simple......... all i said we gave up too much to get ritchie......... i was not a kipper fan, but the potential is still there.......

ana, atl, sea, and the sCrubs have very good farm systems, so its a matter of time before one of them puts together the total package............


we did give up way too much...to prove it just look at the hermanson and estes trades...two pitchers very similiar to ritchie...all 3 are basically number 3 starters....estes gets traded for reliford and shinjo..one a career backup and the other a slow footed singles hitting outfielder...hermanson went to boston for 3 players not even on bostons 40 man roster ....we can even throw in baldwin...why didnt we just get him back and keep josh ,sean and kip???....it turns out baldwin costs as much as ritchie does....and kw was telling us last year we couldnt afford to keep baldwin...kw way overestimated the market for baldwin...

i know im harsh on kw but damn im getting tired of waiting and spending my money at comiskey and not seeing this team win when it should...im tired of the excuses...

Daver
03-04-2002, 08:31 PM
Originally posted by baggio202



we did give up way too much...to prove it just look at the hermanson and estes trades...two pitchers very similiar to ritchie...all 3 are basically number 3 starters....estes gets traded for reliford and shinjo..one a career backup and the other a slow footed singles hitting outfielder...hermanson went to boston for 3 players not even on bostons 40 man roster ....we can even throw in baldwin...why didnt we just get him back and keep josh ,sean and kip???....it turns out baldwin costs as much as ritchie does....and kw was telling us last year we couldnt afford to keep baldwin...kw way overestimated the market for baldwin...

i know im harsh on kw but damn im getting tired of waiting and spending my money at comiskey and not seeing this team win when it should...im tired of the excuses...

There is the fact that Baldwin sucks,and it was proven when there was little interest from any MLB team for his services when he filed for FA,until he signed an incentive laden contract with the Mariners,as one of the last starting pitchers that can still throw a baseball on the FA list.

As far as your "proof",KW gave up a career minor leaguer in the the Sox system in Josh Fogg,a failure in Kip Wells,and a well liked but replacable Sean Lowe,that was not happy with his position on the team and demanded a trade if he was not going to be a starter,don't tell me you think he could be an every fifth day starter in the AL.

czalgosz
03-04-2002, 08:39 PM
Originally posted by baggio202



we did give up way too much...to prove it just look at the hermanson and estes trades...two pitchers very similiar to ritchie...all 3 are basically number 3 starters....estes gets traded for reliford and shinjo..one a career backup and the other a slow footed singles hitting outfielder...hermanson went to boston for 3 players not even on bostons 40 man roster ....we can even throw in baldwin...why didnt we just get him back and keep josh ,sean and kip???....it turns out baldwin costs as much as ritchie does....and kw was telling us last year we couldnt afford to keep baldwin...kw way overestimated the market for baldwin...

i know im harsh on kw but damn im getting tired of waiting and spending my money at comiskey and not seeing this team win when it should...im tired of the excuses...

I'm torn on Ken Williams. On the one hand, he really does seem to want to win, and is willing to roll the dice a few times to make that happen. We haven't had a General Manager with that kind of thinking in my memory.

On the other hand, he publicly and consistently breaks the cardinal rule of haggling, which is, "always be prepared to walk away." Basically, when he is negotiating for a trade, he makes it very clear that he will do whatever it takes to get that player. So naturally the price goes up.

What is interesting to me is that two of the most egregious examples of this behavior have taken place this offseason. His first offseason was pretty normal in terms of value received for players dealt, but this offseason, KW really got my attention.. The trade for Ritchie and the almost-trade for Darin Erstad were obvious examples of overpaying for a ballplayer, and I wonder how much of that has to do with fallout from "Shouldergate". It seems to me that that little incident might have hurt the Sox's (or at least KW's) ability to make trades more than is talked about.

Of course, I could be wrong.

czalgosz
03-04-2002, 08:43 PM
Originally posted by daver


There is the fact that Baldwin sucks,and it was proven when there was little interest from any MLB team for his services when he filed for FA,until he signed an incentive laden contract with the Mariners,as one of the last starting pitchers that can still throw a baseball on the FA list.

As far as your "proof",KW gave up a career minor leaguer in the the Sox system in Josh Fogg,a failure in Kip Wells,and a well liked but replacable Sean Lowe,that was not happy with his position on the team and demanded a trade if he was not going to be a starter,don't tell me you think he could be an every fifth day starter in the AL.

Baldwin does suck, and even with the Barry/Berry screwup I still think the Sox got the better end of that deal.

I don't disagree that Lowe, Fogg, and Wells were all disposable, but I think they could have netted the Sox a bit more than Todd Ritchie. Don't get me wrong, I think that Ritchie will be decent for the Sox, but I think they gave up one too many pitchers for him.

Daver
03-04-2002, 08:47 PM
Originally posted by czalgosz


Baldwin does suck, and even with the Barry/Berry screwup I still think the Sox got the better end of that deal.

I don't disagree that Lowe, Fogg, and Wells were all disposable, but I think they could have netted the Sox a bit more than Todd Ritchie. Don't get me wrong, I think that Ritchie will be decent for the Sox, but I think they gave up one too many pitchers for him.

Your not going to get an established starter for Fogg and Lowe.

czalgosz
03-04-2002, 08:50 PM
Originally posted by daver


Your not going to get an established starter for Fogg and Lowe.

No, but we could have gotten one, IMO, for Kip and Lowe. And I'm on record as saying that Fogg was the one that I wanted to keep, anyway.

But then again, I could be wrong.

Daver
03-04-2002, 09:07 PM
Originally posted by czalgosz


No, but we could have gotten one, IMO, for Kip and Lowe. And I'm on record as saying that Fogg was the one that I wanted to keep, anyway.

But then again, I could be wrong.

You may have a point,but I think Fogg was a throw in,more to get him out of the system than anything else,he had no real future with the White Sox.


But then again what the hell do I know? ©

Lisa
03-04-2002, 09:27 PM
In response to responses to me :smile: :

randar - no, I didn't just start watching Sox baseball! But I believe in my original post I stated that I was referring to his last season to season and a half. So that answers your question, doesn't it?

ktf - I know all about the stat notebook, thanks. The problem is that it only represents the whole season, and it doesn't break it down. Watch Lee when he's struggling (and he did that a lot last year) - he's trying to pull the ball to the opposite field. The problem is that he doesn't have the patience to wait out for a good pitch. That's the difference between him and Valentin - Valentin has patience at the plate, so he gets more walks and has more success pulling the ball.

And I agree with baggio - if Lee hasn't learned defense in LEFT FIELD of all places by now, it's unlikely he'll ever be a big hit. And I don't see the point in keeping him if he has decent trade value and we are overloaded with outfielders. I mean honestly - who would you rather have in a year - Lee or Borchard? Because eventually it's going to come down to a choice - some of these OF have got to go.

Daver
03-04-2002, 09:30 PM
Originally posted by Lisa


And I agree with baggio - if Lee hasn't learned defense in LEFT FIELD of all places by now, it's unlikely he'll ever be a big hit. And I don't see the point in keeping him if he has decent trade value and we are overloaded with outfielders. I mean honestly - who would you rather have in a year - Lee or Borchard? Because eventually it's going to come down to a choice - some of these OF have got to go.

I doubt you will ever see Borchard in left.

baggio202
03-04-2002, 10:08 PM
Originally posted by daver


I doubt you will ever see Borchard in left.

but there is a good chance you will see maggs in lf...rowand in cf..borchard in rf....and lee is the one being replaced by borchard..which is what lisa is saying....this is not a given..but this outfield has as good a chance as any as being the one we have when all the dust settles next year...

as for baldwin sucking..well he is 10th all time in winning pct for the white sox with pitchers over 1000 ip for the sox...he has a 69-53 lifetime record with the sox...has double digits in wins for 6 straight seasons..has represented the sox in the all star game...and started and pitched his ass off for us in a post season game on a bum shoulder...IF ALL OF OUR PITCHERS SUCKED AS BAD AS BALDWIN ID BE PICKING US FOR ABOUT 105 WINS...

everyone brings up baldwins era when they want to rag on him...but they convienently forget his winning pct...baldwin is not randy johnson..but he doesnt suck either....he is a decsent number 3 starter...no different than todd ritchie...

Daver
03-04-2002, 10:15 PM
Originally posted by baggio202



as for baldwin sucking..well he is 10th all time in winning pct for the white sox with pitchers over 1000 ip for the sox...he has a 69-53 lifetime record with the sox...has double digits in wins for 6 straight seasons..has represented the sox in the all star game...and started and pitched his ass off for us in a post season game on a bum shoulder...IF ALL OF OUR PITCHERS SUCKED AS BAD AS BALDWIN ID BE PICKING US FOR ABOUT 105 WINS...



And he put up all those numbers because he had one of the most potent offense's in baseball behind him,and in that top ten he has the highest ERA,by a decent margin.Baldwin did not make the Sox good,the team made him good.The rest of all of MLB proved this when he signed on as the 5th starter for the Mariners,at a reduced rate.He sucks,accept it.

baggio202
03-04-2002, 10:32 PM
Originally posted by daver


And he put up all those numbers because he had one of the most potent offense's in baseball behind him,and in that top ten he has the highest ERA,by a decent margin.Baldwin did not make the Sox good,the team made him good.The rest of all of MLB proved this when he signed on as the 5th starter for the Mariners,at a reduced rate.He sucks,accept it.

since your into era lets compare...last year baldwin 4.42 ..ritchie 4.47...2 years ago...baldwin 4.61...ritchie 4.81...you have to go back to 99 to find a year when ritchie had a better era..they are both 31 years old and ritchie has had one year where he pitched better than baldwin...that was '99..going on 3 years ago....

so lets face facts...if baldwin sux then so does ritchie..accept it..

as for baldwins era compared to the other pitchers on that list...i cant find the list..it was posted back when bladwin was traded on the sox board..but half the guys on that list pitched in the dead ball era...guys like doc white..red faber , eddie cicotte,ed walsh, and lefty williams were 5 that i can think of off the top of my head that im pretty sure were on that list....not really fair to compare era's from the dead ball era to today...last fguy on that list i believe was mcdowell...im not saying baldwin is the pitcher mcdowell but he is on this list and is in good company...atleast you could acknowledge the man doesnt suck...he is a decsent number 3 pitcher that knows how to win...

LongDistanceFan
03-04-2002, 10:42 PM
Originally posted by daver



a failure in Kip Wells, k wells is how old and you consider him a failure......... there is not too many times we have disagreed my friend, but i will on this.......... i have a feeling that kipper will do well and be a decent starter in the mlb. but all this has to wait for the season to be 1/2 over in order to see who is right and who is wrong........... :gulp:

Daver
03-04-2002, 10:46 PM
Originally posted by baggio202


since your into era lets compare...last year baldwin 4.42 ..ritchie 4.47...2 years ago...baldwin 4.61...ritchie 4.81...you have to go back to 99 to find a year when ritchie had a better era..they are both 31 years old and ritchie has had one year where he pitched better than baldwin...that was '99..going on 3 years ago....

so lets face facts...if baldwin sux then so does ritchie..accept it..

as for baldwins era compared to the other pitchers on that list...i cant find the list..it was posted back when bladwin was traded on the sox board..but half the guys on that list pitched in the dead ball era...guys like doc white..red faber , eddie cicotte,ed walsh, and lefty williams were 5 that i can think of off the top of my head that im pretty sure were on that list....not really fair to compare era's from the dead ball era to today...last fguy on that list i believe was mcdowell...im not saying baldwin is the pitcher mcdowell but he is on this list and is in good company...atleast you could acknowledge the man doesnt suck...he is a decsent number 3 pitcher that knows how to win...

He sucks,and has yet to put together a complete season as a starter,Ritchie was the top pitcher on a team that lost a 100 games,yet he managed to win 2/3rd of his starts,Baldwin struggled to do that on a winning team,if you can't face this fact you are more a fan of the player and not the team.Give it up.

PaleHoseGeorge
03-04-2002, 10:46 PM
My only beef with the trade was giving up three pitchers for one. The last time we had a GM so blind to the value of healthy and strong pitching arms, we ended up with Steve Sax for Melido Perez, Shawn Hillegas, and Domingo Jean. Sure, those pitchers never amounted to crap, but look what Sax did for us.

If I was a major league GM, my operating philosophy would be "never trade a pitcher unless you get one in kind".

Why? I dunno.

:)

LongDistanceFan
03-04-2002, 10:49 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
My only beef with the trade was giving up three pitchers for one. The last time we had a GM so blind to the value of healthy and strong pitching arms,

BINGO............ it seems to me that in order to trade, kw have to give a lot for a little............ i think it had to do with the tor trade.......... IMO

baggio202
03-04-2002, 10:53 PM
someone said in here that the "shouldergate' may have cost KW credibility and now the only way he can make a trade is to give more than he recieves...there might be some truth to that...that whole thing really was an awful omen ...

Daver
03-04-2002, 10:59 PM
Originally posted by baggio202
someone said in here that the "shouldergate' may have cost KW credibility and now the only way he can make a trade is to give more than he recieves...there might be some truth to that...that whole thing really was an awful omen ...

Given the reputation that Gord Ash left behind,I doubt this is a problem.It has been proven that he did less than a good job.

LongDistanceFan
03-04-2002, 11:01 PM
Originally posted by daver


Given the reputation that Gord Ash left behind,I doubt this is a problem.It has been proven that he did less than a good job. its kw inablility to judge good talent and do the right thing

voodoochile
03-04-2002, 11:04 PM
The Sox have too many strong arms as it is. Something is going to have to give - unless all of you want to see more rookies next year as the veterans walk away during FA...

BTW, doesn't Baldwin have the highest ERA in MLB history for a pitcher with over 1000 IP?

Daver
03-04-2002, 11:06 PM
Originally posted by LongDistanceFan
its kw inablility to judge good talent and do the right thing

I think you are wrong there LDF.

LongDistanceFan
03-04-2002, 11:07 PM
Originally posted by daver


I think you are wrong there LDF. thats kool....... but in what area and just in general princpal....... :smile:

Lip Man 1
03-04-2002, 11:09 PM
Folks:

I happened to see where a discussion was being held regarding the Sox giving up to much for a player.

The Steve Sax deal was mentioned.

Melido Perez was NOT in that deal, unfortunately another "kid" was and in this case he's turned out to be pretty damn good. BOB WICKMAN!

The Sax deal is one of the three "worst" ever made by Jumbotron Ron Scheuler (I call him Jumbotron because he's as big as a scoreboard!)

The other two were (of course) Sammy Sosa for George Bell and Jack McDowell for three also rans, the best of which was Lyle Mouton! Before you start to say, Black Jack was finished, he won in double figures BOTH in 95 and 96. Also consider what he could have meant to the Sox in 96 when they were blowing a 4 1/2 game lead in the Wild Card Race in August. Sox 5th starters were 5-18!! McDowell could have won five game hiself in two months.

and to think THIS was the guy (Jumbotron Ron) Uncle Jerry said was going to get us to "point C"!!!!! (LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL)

Thank God Uncle Jerry's 66 and not getting any younger!
Lip

Daver
03-04-2002, 11:13 PM
Originally posted by LongDistanceFan
thats kool....... but in what area and just in general princpal....... :smile:

Kenny built a first class minor league system,from the ruins that Ken Harrellson left him with,I have yet to pass final judgement on Kenny's performance.

kermittheefrog
03-04-2002, 11:14 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile


A wishy washy wannabe and a 25 year old prospect who cannot crack the big leagues when his team's pitching has been decimated by injuries are not enough to land a pitcher of Ritchie's talent. To believe otherwise is simply deluding yourself. Ritchie is a proven commodity, Kip and Josh are not.

Okay let me just say this: **** proven commodities.

The bad major league general managers are guys like Williams and the recently fired Cam Bonifay who go after the overpaid proven commodities instead of trusting young players. Reward comes along with risk. Ritchie is proven, proven to be mediocre just like Bonifay signings like Derek Bell, Pat Meares and Terry Mulholland. Proven don't make you good. I'd rather have an unproven young pitcher like Kip than a proven mediocre one like Ritchie.

PaleHoseGeorge
03-04-2002, 11:16 PM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
Folks:

I happened to see where a discussion was being held regarding the Sox giving up to much for a player.

The Steve Sax deal was mentioned.

Melido Perez was NOT in that deal, unfortunately another "kid" was and in this case he's turned out to be pretty damn good. BOB WICKMAN!

I stand corrected. Wickman went to NYY for Sax. Hillegas went to Cleveland for Cory Snyder, another genius trade.

I'm telling ya, trading healthy arms always comes back to bite you.

:dumbash
"Not to mention unhealthy arms!"

:tool
"Caveat emptor, Gord."

RedPinStripes
03-04-2002, 11:19 PM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
Folks:

and to think THIS was the guy (Jumbotron Ron) Uncle Jerry said was going to get us to "point C"!!!!! (LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL)

Thank God Uncle Jerry's 66 and not getting any younger!
Lip

JR is like Bill Wirtz, they'll be around to mess things up till the are in their 90's. Guys like him don't just go away.

LongDistanceFan
03-04-2002, 11:25 PM
Originally posted by daver


Kenny built a first class minor league system,from the ruins that Ken Harrellson left him with,I have yet to pass final judgement on Kenny's performance. but he didn't draft any of them....... he was in charge of the production side of the players not the drafting......... i may be wrong on this.......... so i will imo.

voodoochile
03-04-2002, 11:26 PM
Originally posted by kermittheefrog


Okay let me just say this: **** proven commodities.

The bad major league general managers are guys like Williams and the recently fired Cam Bonifay who go after the overpaid proven commodities instead of trusting young players. Reward comes along with risk. Ritchie is proven, proven to be mediocre just like Bonifay signings like Derek Bell, Pat Meares and Terry Mulholland. Proven don't make you good. I'd rather have an unproven young pitcher like Kip than a proven mediocre one like Ritchie.

I guess time will tell. KW hasn't exactly given away the store so far, though in fairness, I am glad the Erstad trade fell through. Still, with the Sox having a pennant worthy offense, the time to be "going for it" is now. Is Ritchie going to be the savior? I don't know and as much as your stats give you insight, you don't know either. Maybe Ritchie is about to make a step up. I know, I know, he is way too old to do that...

The facts remain, Kip hadn't proven anything in his time here - 3 steps forward, 3 steps back. Lowe isn't the answer and Fogg wasn't even good enough to make the team last year, so what should we do? Keep them all? Continue with the logjam? Continue to rely on pitchers who were unreliable? KW took a chance. Will it work out? Who knows? You don't either. Besides, I would think Todd's last name would get him some slack from you... :D:

Daver
03-04-2002, 11:30 PM
Originally posted by LongDistanceFan
but he didn't draft any of them....... he was in charge of the production side of the players not the drafting......... i may be wrong on this.......... so i will imo.

Kenny was in charge of drafting all of them.Schueler called the shots based on Kenny's decisions.

kermittheefrog
03-04-2002, 11:31 PM
Originally posted by baggio202


since your into era lets compare...last year baldwin 4.42 ..ritchie 4.47...2 years ago...baldwin 4.61...ritchie 4.81...you have to go back to 99 to find a year when ritchie had a better era..they are both 31 years old and ritchie has had one year where he pitched better than baldwin...that was '99..going on 3 years ago....


That looks pretty bad for Ritchie when you throw in Baldwin plays in the DH league but if you look at their peripherals I'd say they are both mediocre pitchers and which one performs better this year is a crap shoot. I will say Ritchie is better than the guys mentioned before, Hermanson and Estes but still not worth guys like Kip and Fogg. Hermanson and Estes might not be able to hold down a spot in a major league rotation for the full year. I'm not worried about that with Ritchie.

One thing to note about guys already giving up on Wells. Ritchie didn't become a major league starter until he was 27. He was drafted in the first round by the Twins out of college. They made him into a reliever because they thought he failed as a prospect and then he was waived. The Pirates picked him up and he became a good pitcher. Kip is only 25 next year and has already shown more potential than Ritchie did in the minors. Ritchie who didn't make the majors until he was 25. I'd rather have Wells than Ritchie.

kermittheefrog
03-04-2002, 11:35 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile

The facts remain, Kip hadn't proven anything in his time here - 3 steps forward, 3 steps back. Lowe isn't the answer and Fogg wasn't even good enough to make the team last year, so what should we do? Keep them all? Continue with the logjam? Continue to rely on pitchers who were unreliable? KW took a chance. Will it work out? Who knows? You don't either. Besides, I would think Todd's last name would get him some slack from you... :D:

The fact is Kip has shown flashes. He has pitched consistently well out the pen and last year when he was placed into the rotation he ran off a string starts worthy of Mark Buehrle. Kip needs to be more consistent that's all. Instead Kenny trades Kip off for a mediocre veteran pitcher. I wouldn't be surprised if Kip outpitches Ritchie.

Daver
03-04-2002, 11:38 PM
Originally posted by kermittheefrog


That looks pretty bad for Ritchie when you throw in Baldwin plays in the DH league but if you look at their peripherals I'd say they are both mediocre pitchers and which one performs better this year is a crap shoot. I will say Ritchie is better than the guys mentioned before, Hermanson and Estes but still not worth guys like Kip and Fogg. Hermanson and Estes might not be able to hold down a spot in a major league rotation for the full year. I'm not worried about that with Ritchie.

One thing to note about guys already giving up on Wells. Ritchie didn't become a major league starter until he was 27. He was drafted in the first round by the Twins out of college. They made him into a reliever because they thought he failed as a prospect and then he was waived. The Pirates picked him up and he became a good pitcher. Kip is only 25 next year and has already shown more potential than Ritchie did in the minors. Ritchie who didn't make the majors until he was 25. I'd rather have Wells than Ritchie.

Based on the numbers or the way they pitch?

I'll take Ritchie .

voodoochile
03-04-2002, 11:41 PM
Originally posted by kermittheefrog


The fact is Kip has shown flashes. He has pitched consistently well out the pen and last year when he was placed into the rotation he ran off a string starts worthy of Mark Buehrle. Kip needs to be more consistent that's all. Instead Kenny trades Kip off for a mediocre veteran pitcher. I wouldn't be surprised if Kip outpitches Ritchie.

Ritchie has shown flashes also. He also has more guts in his little pinky than Kip has in his whole body. Kip has good stuff, but he cannot figure out how to use it. Will he? Who knows? The history of baseball is littered with guys who had great talent and never figured out how to use it and guys with mediocre talent who were quite effective. When you look at Buehrle's stuff, it doesn't look to be that good, but when you throw in his ability to throw strikes consistently, challange hitters, remain unfazed and throw at several different speeds (I've seen 6 different readings in the same game) he manages to get it done.

Time will tell whether we got a good one or a bust, but the fact remains. There wasn't enough room for all of the pitchers we had (heck there really isn't enough room for the pitchers who are left). The guy we got seems to be maturing into a solid top of the rotation pitcher, just when the Sox need one. Do you really think that the Sox are better off this year with Kip instead of Ritchie?

RedPinStripes
03-04-2002, 11:43 PM
Originally posted by kermittheefrog


The fact is Kip has shown flashes. He has pitched consistently well out the pen and last year when he was placed into the rotation he ran off a string starts worthy of Mark Buehrle. Kip needs to be more consistent that's all. Instead Kenny trades Kip off for a mediocre veteran pitcher. I wouldn't be surprised if Kip outpitches Ritchie.

I think kip has great potential, but is just too much of a sissy to be as good as he can be. Yeah, I'll be afraid of a guy who writes me an apology letter immediatly when they get in the clubhouse .

kermittheefrog
03-04-2002, 11:47 PM
Originally posted by daver


Based on the numbers or the way they pitch?

I'll take Ritchie .

Have you seen Ritchie pitch? It's not exactly like watching Roger Clemens or Greg Maddux. I'd take Wells on both sides of the argument. When Wells is on his curve is much better than Ritchie's slider. I think Kip has better movement on his fastball too. Right now Ritchie has more developed 3rd and 4th offerings but he's also 5 years older.

VeeckAsInWreck
03-05-2002, 01:34 AM
Originally posted by voodoochile


Who knows? The history of baseball is littered with guys who had great talent and never figured out how to use it and guys with mediocre talent who were quite effective. Do you really think that the Sox are better off this year with Kip instead of Ritchie?


I totally agree with you on this one VC. I think Ritchie will play the same role that Cal Eldred did in 2000. Cal (like Ritchie) was a top of the rotation starter that gave you quality starts and ate up a lot of innings. We all have to remember that Ritchie played for some real Cub-like Pirates teams. Not even Pedro could have good numbers with the Pirates. Let's give the guy a chance.
:veeck

RichH55
03-05-2002, 11:51 AM
Originally posted by RedPinStripes


JR is like Bill Wirtz, they'll be around to mess things up till the are in their 90's. Guys like him don't just go away.


Hey I know you aren't the biggest JR fan...but easy! Bill Wirtz? As a Blackhawk fan(double penance) ...there is simply no comparison....Wirtz is awful and his other business concerns only add to his legend of being one of the worst owners of all time.....As far as owners go I don't think JR is awful, not 1st rate either, but not being 1st rate does not make one Bill Wirtz either(who ironically enough gave me an autograph these weekend)

RichH55
03-05-2002, 11:53 AM
Originally posted by daver


Based on the numbers or the way they pitch?

I'll take Ritchie .


I was/am a big Kip Wells guy, and I think he will have a good year for the Pirates, but getting Ritchie was a positive....His 200 innings is proven, but what type of pitcher he can be isn't set in stone.....I saw more than a few comparisons to the career path of Jon Lieber...which I could more than live with:)

baggio202
03-05-2002, 12:30 PM
Originally posted by daver


Based on the numbers or the way they pitch?

I'll take Ritchie .

cmon daver..you were throwing baldwin's era all over the place earlier in this thread....then when its shown that the last two years baldwin had an era that was lower than ritchie's you change to the way they pitch??..btw...if we just talking about pitching on guts and heart...which im guessing is what you mean by that statement then nobody outpitches baldwin...i.e. '00 playoffs when baldwin risked his career to pitch to give us a chance against seatttle and went 6 and gave up 1...

think about it...sox fans were pissed at baldwin because of his high era...ritchie..coming from the national league where there is no dh has posted higher era's than baldwin the past two years..if that continues..and ritchie's era is in the high 4's or low 5's taking into account pitching in the AL and people will want to run him out of town on a rail...

it wasnt so much i wasnt willing trade kip..or anybody...but for those three pitchers we should have gotten alot more...

kermittheefrog
03-05-2002, 07:11 PM
I hate this idea that Ritchie is a similar pitcher to Jon Lieber. I remember Lieber on the Pirates and his stuff was nasty, no one says that about Ritchie. Lieber's K rates and K/BB ratios were much much better than Ritchie's at the same stage of their careers. The guys are completely different. The only similarity is they pitched for the Pirates and were both dealt to Chicago around 30.