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View Full Version : Could K Rogers Cheating Have Affected Penate Race?


Roof Shot
10-23-2006, 06:04 PM
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/multimedia/photo_gallery/0610/gallery.mlb.rogers/content.10.html

The Racehorse
10-23-2006, 06:10 PM
I can't make up my mind to what is more disturbing, the scatological-looking smudge mark or Kenny Rogers facial expressions.

MUsoxfan
10-23-2006, 06:20 PM
The most disturbing thing is that there's someone with 5th grade grammar skills starting threads on this site:rolleyes:

voodoochile
10-23-2006, 06:24 PM
The most disturbing thing is that there's someone with 5th grade grammar skills starting threads on this site:rolleyes:

Way to add something to the thread and to start a fight... well done...

Hey if you're looking for someone to brawl with, how about me?:?:

RKMeibalane
10-23-2006, 06:26 PM
What's a penate race? :cool:

MUsoxfan
10-23-2006, 06:28 PM
Way to add something to the thread and to start a fight... well done...

Hey if you're looking for someone to brawl with, how about me?:?:

My apologies...


Things like that irk me. I like to avoid brawls if I can

Robb
10-23-2006, 06:30 PM
I can't make up my mind to what is more disturbing, the scatological-looking smudge mark or Kenny Rogers facial expressions.

I can't stand how the guy acts on the mound and in the dugout. It's aggravating to me.

voodoochile
10-23-2006, 06:30 PM
My apologies...


Things like that irk me. I like to avoid brawls if I can

No problem. Posts that do nothing but harp on grammar irk me...

veeter
10-23-2006, 06:32 PM
Of all the Tiger pitchers, I was curious about Robertson. His velocity against the A's was unbelievable. Fox's gun is probably fast, but he was hitting 95 and 96 consistently, blowing guys away. Since he's been with Detroit he's been a location guy. Spotting his fastball and using his change. All of the sudden he's a power pitcher? Watch for him to come up lame next season.

MUsoxfan
10-23-2006, 06:34 PM
Back to the issue at hand.....

Whatever substance was on his hand. After that substance was removed, he allowed but 1 hit. The guy has simply been dominating and whether he did or didn't have a substance on his hand all year made a very small difference in the pennant race

Lip Man 1
10-23-2006, 06:35 PM
Is that something you hit with a stick to break open for candy?

:D:

Seriously Dan Patrick today said he had photos showing that same smudge on Rogers' thumb from back in July.

I don't think there is any question he was doing something to the ball but he never got caught much like Gaylord Perry so there's nothing you can do about it now. It's remarkable if he was doing it for that long, that someone didn't catch on to it.

Of course like Perry it could all be a mental game with hitters. Remember Perry in his bio stated he'd load up a pitch maybe one or twice a game in key spots, but by going to his hat, hair, side of pants numerous times, he had hitters going nuts and getting themselves out.

It wouldn't surprise me if Rogers took a page out of Perry's book....that's called 'gamesmenship.' And shame on all the coaches and players who didn't pick up on it.

Of course the folks who really look bad in all this are the umpires. Rogers was caught with something on his hand, it wasn't dirt...dirt is legal and you don't ask someone to wash off dirt, you just rub it off on your uniform. Instead of following the rule, kicking him out and suspending him for ten days, they ask him to wash his hands.

Laughable....and so was Tony LaRussa. He may have cost his team a title right there by not throwing a fit and demanding that Rogers get the boot much like Joe Niekro and Rick Honeycutt.

Maybe it's because Leyland is his close friend and he didn't want to embarrass him...I don't know.

Lip

Robb
10-23-2006, 06:35 PM
Of all the Tiger pitchers, I was curious about Robertson. His velocity against the A's was unbelievable. Fox's gun is probably fast, but he was hitting 95 and 96 consistently, blowing guys away. Since he's been with Detroit he's been a location guy. Spotting his fastball and using his change. All of the sudden he's a power pitcher? Watch for him to come up lame next season.

The FOX guns are a joke IMO.

MUsoxfan
10-23-2006, 06:35 PM
Of all the Tiger pitchers, I was curious about Robertson. His velocity against the A's was unbelievable. Fox's gun is probably fast, but he was hitting 95 and 96 consistently, blowing guys away. Since he's been with Detroit he's been a location guy. Spotting his fastball and using his change. All of the sudden he's a power pitcher? Watch for him to come up lame next season.


There have been issues with Fox's radar gun....namely during the ALCS when seemingly half of the Tigers staff was throwing over 100mph. Zumaya was supposedly throwing 103mph consistently

veeter
10-23-2006, 06:38 PM
I'm looking forward to his start against St. Louie. I hope they kick his ass.

goon
10-23-2006, 06:42 PM
Of all the Tiger pitchers, I was curious about Robertson. His velocity against the A's was unbelievable. Fox's gun is probably fast, but he was hitting 95 and 96 consistently, blowing guys away. Since he's been with Detroit he's been a location guy. Spotting his fastball and using his change. All of the sudden he's a power pitcher? Watch for him to come up lame next season.


fox's gun have been loopy all playoffs. in the alcs zumaya hit 103, i don't know how many times and verlander was up at 101. opening night of the world series, granted it was cold, verlander didn't get above 94.


the highest i saw kenny hit last night, that i can recall, was about 91, which is quite high for rogers. although people are making fun of this thread, it does sort of dig under my skin that no other teams or managers noticed that spot on kenny's hand. i know there are only a few games that we've seen him have it on his hand, but i doubt he just used it for four games this season. if some research is done and it is found out that spot was on his hand for most of his starts, i will be a tad bitter. not just at rogers because it's silly to think this would be the first time a baseball player has cheated, but at opposing teams and their managers. obviously it gave the guy somekind of edge, if it didn't, he wouldn't have been using it.

mjmcend
10-23-2006, 06:43 PM
Is that something you hit with a stick to break open for candy?

:D:

Seriously Dan Patrick today said he had photos showing that same smudge on Rogers' thumb from back in July.

I don't think there is any question he was doing something to the ball but he never got caught much like Gaylord Perry so there's nothing you can do about it now. It's remarkable if he was doing it for that long, that someone didn't catch on to it.

Of course like Perry it could all be a mental game with hitters. Remember Perry in his bio stated he'd load up a pitch maybe one or twice a game in key spots, but by going to his hat, hair, side of pants numerous times, he had hitters going nuts and getting themselves out.

It wouldn't surprise me if Rogers took a page out of Perry's book....that's called 'gamesmenship.' And shame on all the coaches and players who didn't pick up on it.

Of course the folks who really look bad in all this are the umpires. Rogers was caught with something on his hand, it wasn't dirt...dirt is legal and you don't ask someone to wash off dirt, you just rub it off on your uniform. Instead of following the rule, kicking him out and suspending him for ten days, they ask him to wash his hands.

Laughable....and so was Tony LaRussa. He may have cost his team a title right there by not throwing a fit and demanding that Rogers get the boot much like Joe Niekro and Rick Honeycutt.

Maybe it's because Leyland is his close friend and he didn't want to embarrass him...I don't know.

Lip

Also maybe because LaRussa knew that some of his pitchers were cheating as well and didn't want his players to be outed as well.

goon
10-23-2006, 06:44 PM
Back to the issue at hand.....

Whatever substance was on his hand. After that substance was removed, he allowed but 1 hit. The guy has simply been dominating and whether he did or didn't have a substance on his hand all year made a very small difference in the pennant race


well, who's to say he didn't simply put it in another location, where it couldn't be seen by cameras? yes he has been dominating this year and it's impossible to say that the sox would have got it hadn't it been for kenny using pine tar... but he was using it for a reason, i'm sure it did help the movement on his pitches.

SABRSox
10-23-2006, 06:45 PM
Maybe it's because Leyland is his close friend and he didn't want to embarrass him...I don't know.

Lip

I'm gonna borrow Hangar's tinfoil hat here, but I think that since Leyland and LaRussa are such close friends, that maybe Leyland told LaRussa earlier in the season that Rogers was cheating, not thinking they'd meet in the WS. Then when LaRussa's players complain, he's got to do something, but he doesn't want to embarrass Leyland, so he doesn't go ballistic about the whole thing.

I don't think Rogers cost the White Sox the wild card (though I'm sure he cheated against us). I do feel that this World Series is tainted now. Hopefully the Cardinals pull it out, so it's a moot point. Cards in 6, still.

The Racehorse
10-23-2006, 06:46 PM
Is that something you hit with a stick to break open for candy?

:D:

Seriously Dan Patrick today said he had photos showing that same smudge on Rogers' thumb from back in July.

I don't think there is any question he was doing something to the ball but he never got caught much like Gaylord Perry so there's nothing you can do about it now. It's remarkable if he was doing it for that long, that someone didn't catch on to it.

Of course like Perry it could all be a mental game with hitters. Remember Perry in his bio stated he'd load up a pitch maybe one or twice a game in key spots, but by going to his hat, hair, side of pants numerous times, he had hitters going nuts and getting themselves out.

It wouldn't surprise me if Rogers took a page out of Perry's book....that's called 'gamesmenship.' And shame on all the coaches and players who didn't pick up on it.

Of course the folks who really look bad in all this are the umpires. Rogers was caught with something on his hand, it wasn't dirt...dirt is legal and you don't ask someone to wash off dirt, you just rub it off on your uniform. Instead of following the rule, kicking him out and suspending him for ten days, they ask him to wash his hands.

Laughable....and so was Tony LaRussa. He may have cost his team a title right there by not throwing a fit and demanding that Rogers get the boot much like Joe Niekro and Rick Honeycutt.

Maybe it's because Leyland is his close friend and he didn't want to embarrass him...I don't know.

Lip

I think LaRussa not doing anything is a direct result of his friendship with Leyland. LaRussa is about as old school as there is [retaliation, knock-down pitches, etc], and he not going absolutely ape with an argument in that situation is pretty amazing. I heard Jim Rome say today the LaRussa is also loyal to a fault. So loyal, by the way, that he totally defended Mark McGuire when the whole world say how badly McGuire performed during the steroid hearings in D.C.

TheOldRoman
10-23-2006, 06:50 PM
I believe that if Rogers was ejected, the Cardinals would have won. The Tigers woudln't have been able to win 4/5, with three on the road, and their best pitcher out. If the cheater got tossed, the Cardinals are world champions in a few days. Rogers not getting ejected and suspended drastically changed the series.
I believe the umpire ****ed up by not throwing him out immediately upon seeing "something" on his hand. There should have been no warning. However, La Russa blew it by not throwing a fit. He merely mentioned to the ump that the ball was moving funny. If he would have insisted, the ump would have had to inspect him thouroughly. There is blame to go around. Most of which is on that piece of garbage Rogers. Between him, Ordonez, Roidriguez, and the Belt Stealer, Detriot is really a classy team. I want them to lose now more than ever.

mjmcend
10-23-2006, 06:52 PM
I'm gonna borrow Hangar's tinfoil hat here, but I think that since Leyland and LaRussa are such close friends, that maybe Leyland told LaRussa earlier in the season that Rogers was cheating, not thinking they'd meet in the WS. Then when LaRussa's players complain, he's got to do something, but he doesn't want to embarrass Leyland, so he doesn't go ballistic about the whole thing.

I don't think Rogers cost the White Sox the wild card (though I'm sure he cheated against us). I do feel that this World Series is tainted now. Hopefully the Cardinals pull it out, so it's a moot point. Cards in 6, still.

Doubt that Leyland would admit that one of his players was cheating unpromted.

cheeses_h_rice
10-23-2006, 06:54 PM
Interesting article (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2006/writers/jon_heyman/10/23/scoop.rogers/index.html?cnn=yes) that talks about the preponderence of cheating by MLB pitchers, and gives the opinion by a bullpen coach that it was indeed pine tar.

FarWestChicago
10-23-2006, 06:54 PM
Also maybe because LaRussa knew that some of his pitchers were cheating as well and didn't want his players to be outed as well.He knows about a ****load of his players on HGH. Maybe he didn't want to draw the cheating spotlight. :redneck

SABRSox
10-23-2006, 06:57 PM
Doubt that Leyland would admit that one of his players was cheating unpromted.

They are close friends. That's why I borrowed the tinfoil hat.

FarWestChicago
10-23-2006, 07:00 PM
They are close friends. That's why I borrowed the tinfoil hat.Take the tinfoil off:

Leyland: Tony, you say **** about The Gambler I'm bringing up all your 'roids and HGH. ****, you make Victor Conte look like a small timer.

LaRoida: A little dirt never hurt anything, Jimmy.

SABRSox
10-23-2006, 07:01 PM
Take the tinfoil off:

Leyland: Tony, you say **** about The Gambler I'm bringing up all your 'roids and HGH. ****, you make Victor Conte look like a small timer.

LaRoida: A little dirt never hurt anything, Jimmy.

:rolling: Nice.

SluggersAway
10-23-2006, 07:04 PM
I almost hate this more than the HGH and steroids because the evidence of wrongdoing is right in front of everyone's eyes and yet the umpires, mlb, and opposing manager are doing nothing about it when it looks like he has been doing it all season long.

Something is very rotten in the state of Denmark!

The Racehorse
10-23-2006, 07:05 PM
Interesting article (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2006/writers/jon_heyman/10/23/scoop.rogers/index.html?cnn=yes) that talks about the preponderence of cheating by MLB pitchers, and gives the opinion by a bullpen coach that it was indeed pine tar.

Some guys use a combination of all three -- pine tar, shaving cream and suntan lotion -- or you could use one or two.


Remind me to never "bump into" an MLB pitcher as I don't want to stick to them & I'm not needing a shave or working on my tan. :D:

23Ventura
10-23-2006, 07:14 PM
Is that something you hit with a stick to break open for candy?

:D:

Seriously Dan Patrick today said he had photos showing that same smudge on Rogers' thumb from back in July.

I don't think there is any question he was doing something to the ball but he never got caught much like Gaylord Perry so there's nothing you can do about it now. It's remarkable if he was doing it for that long, that someone didn't catch on to it.

Of course like Perry it could all be a mental game with hitters. Remember Perry in his bio stated he'd load up a pitch maybe one or twice a game in key spots, but by going to his hat, hair, side of pants numerous times, he had hitters going nuts and getting themselves out.

It wouldn't surprise me if Rogers took a page out of Perry's book....that's called 'gamesmenship.' And shame on all the coaches and players who didn't pick up on it.

Of course the folks who really look bad in all this are the umpires. Rogers was caught with something on his hand, it wasn't dirt...dirt is legal and you don't ask someone to wash off dirt, you just rub it off on your uniform. Instead of following the rule, kicking him out and suspending him for ten days, they ask him to wash his hands.

Laughable....and so was Tony LaRussa. He may have cost his team a title right there by not throwing a fit and demanding that Rogers get the boot much like Joe Niekro and Rick Honeycutt.

Maybe it's because Leyland is his close friend and he didn't want to embarrass him...I don't know.

Lip
I was also very surprised that LaRussa didn't complain about it. Didn't he accuse the Sox of stealing signs back in June when we scored 33 runs in two games, and that was just the regular season, this is the World Series. Even i if the pine tar isn't really effecting the outcome of the game, it's still illegal, and if LaRussa had said something in the first inning Rogers probably would've gotten ejected, which would certainly give the Cards an edge.

SluggersAway
10-23-2006, 07:16 PM
Here is the coup de grace from the SI article 'cheeses' posted and answers Lip's speculation on La Russa:

"I bet Tony La Russa's pitchers are mad at him for saying anything, because a lot of guys do it, and I'd be surprise if there's a whole staff of guys who don't do it. In fact, I'd say a majority of guys use one of the three -- shaving cream, suntan lotion or pine tar. They can't like him ratting out the other team when everyone does it. Maybe he had to say something because it's the World Series, it's on TV and he probably has to answer to his owner.

"But you'll notice he didn't continue to talk about it, and he instructed his guys not to talk about it. They probably have no interest in catching Rogers because if they do then the umpire is looking at everyone.''

Anyone on the White Sox rubbing their arms a la David Wells or dipping into their back pocket?

Justagirl
10-23-2006, 07:31 PM
I was also very surprised that LaRussa didn't complain about it. Didn't he accuse the Sox of stealing signs back in June .

I know Duncan did.
JL also implied that Thome was reading into Verlanders pitches, remember that? Reading pitches - tarring up your hand= which is worse?
I love baseball! :bandance:

SluggersAway
10-23-2006, 07:42 PM
I really hate this development the more I think about it. It is one thing to try to gain strength, improve your eyesight, return from injury faster through science, but it is absolutely unacceptable to cheat so blatantly DURING the game.

goon
10-23-2006, 07:43 PM
Anyone on the White Sox rubbing their arms a la David Wells or dipping into their back pocket?


http://adorocinema.cidadeinternet.com.br/filmes/boogie-nights/boogie-nights01.jpg




Dirk, whose side are you on?

Gregory Pratt
10-23-2006, 07:52 PM
Here is the coup de grace from the SI article 'cheeses' posted and answers Lip's speculation on La Russa:

"I bet Tony La Russa's pitchers are mad at him for saying anything, because a lot of guys do it, and I'd be surprise if there's a whole staff of guys who don't do it. In fact, I'd say a majority of guys use one of the three -- shaving cream, suntan lotion or pine tar. They can't like him ratting out the other team when everyone does it. Maybe he had to say something because it's the World Series, it's on TV and he probably has to answer to his owner.

"But you'll notice he didn't continue to talk about it, and he instructed his guys not to talk about it. They probably have no interest in catching Rogers because if they do then the umpire is looking at everyone.''

Anyone on the White Sox rubbing their arms a la David Wells or dipping into their back pocket?

There is simply no way that Jenks doesn't wipe something on the ball. He runs his hands all over his head and cap. He's an obvious one.

1951Campbell
10-23-2006, 07:53 PM
LaRussa wussed out because he wanted Leyland to keep sitting at his table at lunch.

Totally wussy.

It's the World Series, Tony. Grow a pair and pitch a fit. Geez. :rolleyes:

1951Campbell
10-23-2006, 07:55 PM
I will also point out that Leyland's comments have been super-glib about the incident.

Tony got pwned.

goon
10-23-2006, 07:57 PM
LaRussa wussed out because he wanted Leyland to keep sitting at his table at lunch.

Totally wussy.

It's the World Series, Tony. Grow a pair and pitch a fit. Geez. :rolleyes:


which makes the the whole situation even more odd because those are the moments la russa seems to live for.

oeo
10-23-2006, 07:59 PM
Of all the Tiger pitchers, I was curious about Robertson. His velocity against the A's was unbelievable. Fox's gun is probably fast, but he was hitting 95 and 96 consistently, blowing guys away. Since he's been with Detroit he's been a location guy. Spotting his fastball and using his change. All of the sudden he's a power pitcher? Watch for him to come up lame next season.

Zumaya was also hitting 103/104, and Verlander in the 100/101 range. Uh...no. That radar gun was screwed up.

Justagirl
10-23-2006, 08:00 PM
There is simply no way that Jenks doesn't wipe something on the ball. He runs his hands all over his head and cap. He's an obvious one.

Hes just sweatier than most people! ha
He does look like he has ADHD out there though, doesnt he?

kittle42
10-23-2006, 08:02 PM
No problem. Posts that do nothing but harp on grammar irk me...

Stand up for the preservation of grammar! :wink:

1951Campbell
10-23-2006, 08:06 PM
which makes the the whole situation even more odd because those are the moments la russa seems to live for.

There's some friendship dynamic at work there.

Either that, or Cards pitchers were cheating too.

samram
10-23-2006, 08:08 PM
Of all the Tiger pitchers, I was curious about Robertson. His velocity against the A's was unbelievable. Fox's gun is probably fast, but he was hitting 95 and 96 consistently, blowing guys away. Since he's been with Detroit he's been a location guy. Spotting his fastball and using his change. All of the sudden he's a power pitcher? Watch for him to come up lame next season.

A couple of friends of mine had drinks with some Mets' advance scouts at the Renaissance Hotel the night before Game 4 of the ALCS and the scouts said the Fox gun was 3-4 MPH fast.

FarWestChicago
10-23-2006, 08:13 PM
I really hate this development the more I think about it. It is one thing to try to gain strength, improve your eyesight, return from injury faster through science, but it is absolutely unacceptable to cheat so blatantly DURING the game.I was waiting for some gasbrain to say 'roids are OK. Look at the bright side, you don't have any credibility so it can't be shot. :redneck

samram
10-23-2006, 08:14 PM
There's some friendship dynamic at work there.

Either that, or Cards pitchers were cheating too.

I'll take the latter on that one.

To put on the tinfoil hat for a second, isn't it strange that Rogers, normally stoic, has suddenly become a raving loon on the mound? Perhaps he thinks if he can get people to pay attention to his fist pumping and shouting to no one in particular, they won't pay so much attention to the funky smudges on his hand? :smokin:

CLR01
10-23-2006, 08:14 PM
Either that, or Cards pitchers were cheating too.


I don't see why that should have stopped him here. His pitcher had yet to take the field and if he was going to doctor the ball he would have had plenty of time to change hats/wash his hands to avoid getting caught himself. Of course that is assuming TLR would have pooped his head out of the dugout before the inning was over like he should have.

SluggersAway
10-23-2006, 09:36 PM
I was waiting for some gasbrain to say 'roids are OK.

I was just waiting for someone to misconstrue my comment. Good job.

SluggersAway
10-23-2006, 09:45 PM
Never did I say steroids are okay, master of reading comprehension.

I only pointed out that cheating during the game is absolutely unacceptable.

1951Campbell
10-23-2006, 09:47 PM
I'll take the latter on that one.

To put on the tinfoil hat for a second, isn't it strange that Rogers, normally stoic, has suddenly become a raving loon on the mound? Perhaps he thinks if he can get people to pay attention to his fist pumping and shouting to no one in particular, they won't pay so much attention to the funky smudges on his hand? :smokin:

Yeah, that's a little too foil-laden for my tastes. :D:

But what is interesting is that folks on the radio said there are screen-caps circulating of Rogers with "the smudge" from the ALCS.

SluggersAway
10-23-2006, 09:59 PM
But what is interesting is that folks on the radio said there are screen-caps circulating of Rogers with "the smudge" from the ALCS.

The Sports Illustrated site has a picture of him with "the smudge" from a White Sox game back in July.

CLR01
10-23-2006, 09:59 PM
Yeah, that's a little too foil-laden for my tastes. :D:

But what is interesting is that folks on the radio said there are screen-caps circulating of Rogers with "the smudge" from the ALCS.


Yes there is. Here are some from SI (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/multimedia/photo_gallery/0610/gallery.mlb.rogers/content.7.html) and here is one from July 5th (http://sandiego.padres.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/news/gameday_recap.jsp?ymd=20060705&content_id=1540626&vkey=recap&fext=.jsp&c_id=mlb).


Some one needs to tell him to wash his handswhen he is done playing in the dirt and to stay out of the medicine cabinet

1951Campbell
10-23-2006, 10:07 PM
Yes there is. Here are some from SI (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/multimedia/photo_gallery/0610/gallery.mlb.rogers/content.7.html) and here is one from July 5th (http://sandiego.padres.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/news/gameday_recap.jsp?ymd=20060705&content_id=1540626&vkey=recap&fext=.jsp&c_id=mlb).


Some one needs to tell him to wash his handswhen he is done playing in the dirt and to stay out of the medicine cabinet

I said it before and I'll say it again...it looks like an iodine stain.

I can't for the life of me think of a reason why iodine would benefit a pitcher, but then again, I was an infielder in high school.

Anyone have any thoughts on this?

1951Campbell
10-23-2006, 10:10 PM
And I'll just add that no matter what that is on his hand, he must think it helps, because there's been quite a few pictures that have turn up with that smudge there.

FarWestChicago
10-23-2006, 10:19 PM
It is one thing to try to gain strength, improve your eyesight, return from injury faster through science, but it is absolutely unacceptable to cheat so blatantly DURING the game.

I was just waiting for someone to misconstrue my comment. Good job.

Never did I say steroids are okay, master of reading comprehension.

I only pointed out that cheating during the game is absolutely unacceptable.And there is it in black and white. You said what you said. You know what. I don't need this crap. I'm busting my ass to keep this server running long enough to get a new one going. I'm missing out on sleep and up to my ass in alligators and you are being totally disingenuous. Take a hike. I'll lift your suspension after the server move and when I've had a chance to relax for a bit.

CLR01
10-23-2006, 10:21 PM
I said it before and I'll say it again...it looks like an iodine stain.

I can't for the life of me think of a reason why iodine would benefit a pitcher, but then again, I was an infielder in high school.

Anyone have any thoughts on this?


Oblong is that you? :smile:


If anything it would mark the ball. The alcohol in it would dry before he made it out tp the mound.

TheOldRoman
10-23-2006, 10:23 PM
I said it before and I'll say it again...it looks like an iodine stain.

I can't for the life of me think of a reason why iodine would benefit a pitcher, but then again, I was an infielder in high school.

Anyone have any thoughts on this?
But there is no way it could be iodine because he completely washed it off between innings. Iodine would not come off like that.

LuvSox
10-23-2006, 10:33 PM
http://images.usatoday.com/life/_photos/2004/07/07/inside1-07-rogers.jpg

"My hands are clean"

TheKittle
10-23-2006, 10:43 PM
No problem. Posts that do nothing but harp on grammar irk me...


Thank you!!! This isn't some damn English class. It should be fun and even if somebody ****s up on grammar, who gives a ****!!!

23Ventura
10-23-2006, 10:52 PM
There is simply no way that Jenks doesn't wipe something on the ball. He runs his hands all over his head and cap. He's an obvious one.
What is that stuff that's always on the back of his hat?
Anyway, I'm sure there are a lot more pitchers that put a "foreign substance" on the ball that we will never know about. I get the feeling that it's probably a pretty common practice.

LuvSox
10-23-2006, 10:53 PM
What is that stuff that's always on the back of his hat?


Rosin. Totally legal.

jenn2080
10-23-2006, 10:56 PM
The stuff on his hand had no impact on his pitching. It should have nothing to with the rest of the WS.

23Ventura
10-23-2006, 10:57 PM
Rosin. Totally legal.
Ahh, that makes sense. I guess that would be why no opposing manager has asked an umpire to check his hat.

LuvSox
10-23-2006, 10:58 PM
Ahh, that makes sense. I guess that would be why no opposing manager has asked an umpire to check his hat.

The first time I saw it I figured he fell on his ass and hit the back of his head on the ground. :D:

thomas35forever
10-23-2006, 11:01 PM
The Tigers deserve to lose now. Cheaters never prosper. If they win, St. Louis fans are gonna hate The Gambler forever.

LuvSox
10-23-2006, 11:03 PM
The Tigers deserve to lose now. Cheaters never prosper. If they win, St. Louis fans are gonna hate The Gambler forever.

Wouldn't it be something if one day Rogers and AJ were battery mates? People would lose their voices screaming obscenities.

23Ventura
10-23-2006, 11:04 PM
The Tigers deserve to lose now. Cheaters never prosper. If they win, St. Louis fans are gonna hate The Gambler forever.
I think they will probably hate him whether they win or lose, but certainly, with the camera man incident, and now this, Kenny Rogers can't be very popular for baseball fans outside of Detroit.

Gregory Pratt
10-23-2006, 11:11 PM
What is that stuff that's always on the back of his hat?
Anyway, I'm sure there are a lot more pitchers that put a "foreign substance" on the ball that we will never know about. I get the feeling that it's probably a pretty common practice.

First question: answered.
As for your comment, agreed. That, more than his friendship with Leyland, is why LaRussa didn't make a fuss.

He doesn't want to have a Frank Robinson v. Mike Scioscia duel.

sox647
10-23-2006, 11:12 PM
Yes there is. Here are some from SI (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/multimedia/photo_gallery/0610/gallery.mlb.rogers/content.7.html) and here is one from July 5th (http://sandiego.padres.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/news/gameday_recap.jsp?ymd=20060705&content_id=1540626&vkey=recap&fext=.jsp&c_id=mlb).


Some one needs to tell him to wash his handswhen he is done playing in the dirt and to stay out of the medicine cabinet

that's some shiny "dirt" he's got there.

23Ventura
10-23-2006, 11:22 PM
I had a good laugh when I read an article on MLB.com that said this:

"Rogers said the stuff came from rubbing up his baseballs in the bullpen warming up before the game."

Sure Kenny, rubbing your baseballs.

StillMissOzzie
10-23-2006, 11:53 PM
Even though I already predicted the Tigers in 5, I'd like to see them split the next two games just to force a game 6. You gotta know that Rogers will be watched like a hawk if he pitches again in the World Series.

SMO
:gulp:

Nellie_Fox
10-24-2006, 12:01 AM
I said it before and I'll say it again...it looks like an iodine stain.

I can't for the life of me think of a reason why iodine would benefit a pitcher, but then again, I was an infielder in high school.

Anyone have any thoughts on this?I though that, rather than pine tar, which is clear (yes, I know it attracts dirt and gets stained quickly) it reminded me of the "stickum" that football wide receivers used back in the 70s before the NFL banned it. Their hands were stained brown all the time.

The Racehorse
10-24-2006, 04:21 AM
I though that, rather than pine tar, which is clear (yes, I know it attracts dirt and gets stained quickly) it reminded me of the "stickum" that football wide receivers used back in the 70s before the NFL banned it. Their hands were stained brown all the time.

Lester Hayes & Kenny Rogers... like two sticky peas in a pod! :redneck

southside rocks
10-24-2006, 06:33 AM
He knows about a ****load of his players on HGH. Maybe he didn't want to draw the cheating spotlight. :redneck

I lost a lot of respect for LaRussa when he managed Oakland and defended the Juicer's Row that played on that team.

I'm not sure that Tony has a problem with some forms of cheating, and yes, I know that's a harsh thing to say, but come on ... he all but promoted steroid use by that club in those years.

As for Rogers' being a cheat and its effect on the standings: we have no idea how many other players used unfair advantages this year. It all affected the standings. We don't have enough info to sort it all out.

mccoydp
10-24-2006, 09:06 AM
Take the tinfoil off:

Leyland: Tony, you say **** about The Gambler I'm bringing up all your 'roids and HGH. ****, you make Victor Conte look like a small timer.

LaRoida: A little dirt never hurt anything, Jimmy.

Classic post.

kittle42
10-24-2006, 09:32 AM
Thank you!!! This isn't some damn English class. It should be fun and even if somebody ****s up on grammar, who gives a ****!!!

Fine. Everyone has convinced me that writing and speaking the way one is taught in school is stupid and unimportant in any non-educational forum. I am wrong.

cws05champ
10-24-2006, 10:15 AM
I think the best way ot tell what the substance was, is to check the face of the cameraman in Texas. Maybe he'll still have a smudge on his face when Rogers pushed him down for taking his picture. :D:

Justagirl
10-24-2006, 10:48 AM
First question: answered.
As for your comment, agreed. That, more than his friendship with Leyland, is why LaRussa didn't make a fuss.

He doesn't want to have a Frank Robinson v. Mike Scioscia duel.
Thats pretty much everyones guess. Michael Kay mentioned that he thought TLR knew about it, but had previously kept silent because he was doing the same thing and Leyland knew it. Who knows.

Nellie_Fox
10-24-2006, 10:49 AM
Thank you!!! This isn't some damn English class. It should be fun and even if somebody ****s up on grammar, who gives a ****!!!Proper English is only required inside the four walls of an English class. Other than that, there is absolutely no reason for it! I don't even know why they have English classes. There's no way we can have fun surrounded by proper English.

kittle42
10-24-2006, 11:26 AM
Proper English is only required inside the four walls of an English class. Other than that, there is absolutely no reason for it! I don't even know why they have English classes. There's no way we can have fun surrounded by proper English.

Thank you, Nellie. I knew there was another voice of reason out there!

Justagirl
10-24-2006, 11:34 AM
The only spelling thats ever really bothered me are tHe PeOPle wHO TypE lIkE thIS or lyk3 tl-lis. Thats just irritating. If it's an accidental typo or someone just misspelled a word, I could care less. What IS funny though is when someones correcting someone elses *grammEr* and they misspell grammar, or something like that...then I feel is is my duty to make fun of them.

MarySwiss
10-24-2006, 11:50 AM
Proper English is only required inside the four walls of an English class. Other than that, there is absolutely no reason for it! I don't even know why they have English classes. There's no way we can have fun surrounded by proper English.

Thank you, Nellie. I knew there was another voice of reason out there!

The only spelling thats ever really bothered me are tHe PeOPle wHO TypE lIkE thIS or lyk3 tl-lis. Thats just irritating. If it's an accidental typo or someone just misspelled a word, I could care less. What IS funny though is when someones correcting someone elses *grammEr* and they misspell grammar, or something like that...then I feel is is my duty to make fun of them.

I guess I fall in the middle someplace. I notice when errors occur and find them annoying when they're severe (not obvious typos that anyone can make), but I usually don't feel compelled to correct them--unless someone's paying me to do so.

cheeses_h_rice
10-24-2006, 11:57 AM
Thank you, Nellie. I knew there was another voice of reason out there!

You meen to tell me "penate" isnt a reel wurd?

bryPt
10-24-2006, 11:57 AM
Some Detroit fan called the Score yesterday and said that A-Rod threw balls out of play to the ball boy instead of handing them to the ump, only when K Rogers was pitching. Said he noticed that back in July or something. on SI.com, they have a photo of the smug during the July 20th game, against our boys.

Lorenzo Barcelo
10-24-2006, 12:39 PM
The Sports Illustrated site has a picture of him with "the smudge" from a White Sox game back in July.

Yup July 20 a game we happened to lose 2-1.

davenicholson
10-24-2006, 12:43 PM
Some Detroit fan called the Score yesterday and said that A-Rod threw balls out of play to the ball boy instead of handing them to the ump, only when K Rogers was pitching. Said he noticed that back in July or something. on SI.com, they have a photo of the smug during the July 20th game, against our boys.
:o:
Kittle? Nellie? HELP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

MarySwiss
10-24-2006, 12:45 PM
:o:
Kittle? Nellie? HELP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Well, that's what happens when you have these stupid "first initial plus first syllable of last name" nicknames all over the place. Obviously, he meant I-Rod. :smile:

getonbckthr
10-24-2006, 01:02 PM
I think Mr Rogers was using that stuff that guitar players use. Its like a 2nd skin that would improve his grip on the ball.

Fenway
10-24-2006, 01:03 PM
story won't die

http://www.boston.com/sports/baseball/articles/2006/10/24/spot_duty_for_rogers/

Fenway
10-24-2006, 01:15 PM
penate?



http://www.ancestry.com/learn/facts/fact.aspx?fid=7&ln=Penate&fn

October26
10-24-2006, 04:31 PM
story won't die

http://www.boston.com/sports/baseball/articles/2006/10/24/spot_duty_for_rogers/

Good. I'm glad. The Cheater/Gambler needs to be questioned until they get to the bottom of this. Where is Bud Selig and what is he doing about this?

MarySwiss
10-24-2006, 04:39 PM
Good. I'm glad. The Cheater/Gambler needs to be questioned until they get to the bottom of this. Where is Bud Selig and what is he doing about this?

My guess would be "nothing."

Lip Man 1
10-24-2006, 04:53 PM
Hitting coach Hal McRae (Sox fans remember him from 1977...) went off on Rogers in the USA Today. Says the team has a half dozen scuffed balls in their posession. Assumes Rogers used his fingernails to cut them. Also said Rogers definitely had pine tar not 'dirt,' on his hand.

Lip

PKalltheway
10-24-2006, 04:54 PM
I'm sick and tired of hearing people (not on here, but on TV) saying that "this is an accepted practice to use pine tar on your hands" Hey if you get caught using it, you should be thrown out. Period. End of story. Brendan Donelley (sp?) was tossed last year for using pine tar in a meaningless Nationals-Angels interleague game, but Rogers DOES NOT get tossed on the biggest stage in baseball, the World Series? LaRussa should have grown a pair and actually went out there and did something about it, like Frank Robinson did last year.

Hey Tony, I thought your objective was to win the World Series? Well you just blew a chance to go up 2-0.

beckett21
10-24-2006, 05:20 PM
Hitting coach Hal McRae (Sox fans remember him from 1977...) went off on Rogers in the USA Today. Says the team has a half dozen scuffed balls in their posession. Assumes Rogers used his fingernails to cut them. Also said Rogers definitely had pine tar not 'dirt,' on his hand.

Lip

Probably what bothers me most about this whole affair is that they are insulting the intelligence of the general public by trying to convince us that Rogers had 'dirt' on his hand.

He knew it wasn't dirt, the managers knew it wasn't dirt, the umps knew it wasn't dirt, the players knew it wasn't dirt. Please stop trying to tell Joe Public that it was dirt. We all know better than that.

I was listening to Dan Patrick for a few minutes in the car yesterday afternoon, and Keith Olbermann brought up the idea that it may have been some type of benzoin compound, such as tincture of benzoin. This is used medically when steri-strips are applied to a wound to get the paper strips to hold better to the skin and keep the wound edges from separating. Looks just like iodine, and is sticky as hell. He also mentioned that it was commonly used by musicians such as getonbckthr said.

Whatever it was, it was not dirt. If this is one of those 'unwritten' rules that is ignored, fine. I don't care. But don't insult me by telling me it was a clump of dirt. GMAB. The cover-up ****** me off more than the crime.

buehrle4cy05
10-24-2006, 05:20 PM
Hitting coach Hal McRae (Sox fans remember him from 1977...) went off on Rogers in the USA Today. Says the team has a half dozen scuffed balls in their posession. Assumes Rogers used his fingernails to cut them. Also said Rogers definitely had pine tar not 'dirt,' on his hand.

Lip

ESPN showed a still showing Rogers having something that looked like a piece of sandpaper glued/taped to his finger in a game earlier this year...

beckett21
10-24-2006, 05:21 PM
My guess would be "nothing."

:tool

Your what hurts?

soxinem1
10-25-2006, 07:25 AM
All I know is that the jerk has been pitching for a long time, and in half of them, his pitches moved funny. Since he's played for several teams, and has been teammates of a high percentage of players in MLB, if he was cheating, someone should have said something long ago.

Is Hal McRae failing to mention that the scuffs on the balls may have been because they hit facades, seats, dugouts, etc.?

But now it's an issue because two things Rogers has done in the past, which are:

1. Fading down the stretch; it didn't really happen this year.
2. Getting bombed in the playoffs; he's been lights out.

Because he had one of the more consistent years of his career in 2006, and has been tough in postseason, now people want to complain.

Where were they 10 years ago?

jenn2080
10-25-2006, 07:45 AM
Kenny is the reason the Tigers lost yesterday. Damn him!

Baby Fisk
10-25-2006, 08:54 AM
I'm sick and tired of hearing people (not on here, but on TV) saying that "this is an accepted practice to use pine tar on your hands"

In Canada, Rogers Sportsnet is offering pregame coverage featuring Jays' announcer Jamie Campbell and Jays' catcher Gregg Zaun. Zaun has been all but admitting, actually no, he HAS been admitting on air that he sometimes puts a bit of pine tar on his uniform to help his grip. Both he and Campbell have brushed the issue aside, saying "this sort of thing has been going on for a hundred years." The impression they leave is that some forms of cheating are not as serious as other forms of cheating. :?:


PS: there's a difference between a simple typo and a linguistic atrocity, of which the latter appears in the thread title.

cws05champ
10-25-2006, 11:01 AM
Is anyone a pitcher out there that could tell us what the effect of pine tar would have on the ball and it's movment? Does it have an affect, or is it just to grip the ball better?

I'm not advocating the use of illegal substances, but trying to understand to what end we are arguing.

Paulwny
10-25-2006, 12:05 PM
I lost a lot of respect for LaRussa when he managed Oakland and defended the Juicer's Row that played on that team.

I'm not sure that Tony has a problem with some forms of cheating, and yes, I know that's a harsh thing to say, but come on ... he all but promoted steroid use by that club in those years.

As for Rogers' being a cheat and its effect on the standings: we have no idea how many other players used unfair advantages this year. It all affected the standings. We don't have enough info to sort it all out.


Strange guy, La Russa. In 1990 he protested the Seattle Fur Exchange's annual auction. Before a White House dinner he made sure he would be served a vegetarian meal.

From the Buffalo News:
Aren't baseballs and gloves made out of animal hides? And aren't bats made from trees, which were at one time living things? And if La Russa's so dedicated to the cause . . .
http://www.buffalonews.com/editorial/20061025/1021205.asp :?:

Lip Man 1
10-25-2006, 12:43 PM
What pine tar, or a scuff or hair tonic does is that it causes the ball to spin or move more erratically then 'normal,' the substance catches and holds the air more, causing more friction, which causes changes in movement.

Generally you want the 'imperfection' near a stitch and on the other side from where you are releasing the ball.

Not that I'd know anything about 'doctoring' baseballs mind you!

:rolleyes:

Lip

pmck003
10-25-2006, 12:51 PM
I'd guess it's pine tar or something else as well but if it was tobacco juice maybe he'd say its dirt to the media. Does he chew tobacco?

Green
10-25-2006, 03:37 PM
What I want to know is why LaRussa decided to take the high road for pine tar, but accused the Sox of stealing signs?

Frontman
10-25-2006, 05:59 PM
What bothers me is the reports that Rogers has been doing this all season. From what was said on ESPN radio yesterday, there are photos of Rogers having this stuff on his hand as far back as July 4th. Considering this is a guy who had a habit of falling apart on the back half of the season, which he obviously didn't do, I feel that probably those reports have some credibility.

How many games did Rogers win that he might not have won for the Tigers while having the "dirt" on his hand, compared to how many games the Sox finished behind the Tigers?

Granted, if the Cards win two more, I really don't give a damn, but if somehow the Tigers win the Series, I'm really pissed that he got away with it for so damn long.

Front

Ziggy S
10-25-2006, 06:27 PM
Wouldn't it be something if one day Rogers and AJ were battery mates? People would lose their voices screaming obscenities.
I believe "Pine Tar" Rogers pitched for the Hostess Cupcakes in 2K3 or 2K2, so AJ probably did catch him at least that year.

Ziggy S
10-25-2006, 06:35 PM
I knew we were getting screwed almost every other game with umpires' strike zones this year, but I had no idea about Rogers (sue me, I could only catch the games on AFN) using the "foreign substance" in addition to getting a zone wide enough for THREE Hummers to fit and drive through, especially against Buehrle.

Ziggy S
10-25-2006, 06:42 PM
This is my last statement on the subject. I don't care at all for LaRusa, Dave Duncan, or that naturally gifted slugger Albert Pujols or Jim Edmonds (Ol Jim becoming an all around .300 30 HR 100 RBI guy after he was traded from Los Angeles Anaheim Orange County Sacremento San Jose Cancun Angels to St Louis couldn't have had anything to do with "supplements" could it?), but **** the Tigers. **** Magglio and his contract, **** Kenny Rogers, and **** I-Roid. I say again, **** the ****ing Tigers.

cheeses_h_rice
10-25-2006, 07:18 PM
What bothers me is the reports that Rogers has been doing this all season. From what was said on ESPN radio yesterday, there are photos of Rogers having this stuff on his hand as far back as July 4th. Considering this is a guy who had a habit of falling apart on the back half of the season, which he obviously didn't do, I feel that probably those reports have some credibility.

How many games did Rogers win that he might not have won for the Tigers while having the "dirt" on his hand, compared to how many games the Sox finished behind the Tigers?

Granted, if the Cards win two more, I really don't give a damn, but if somehow the Tigers win the Series, I'm really pissed that he got away with it for so damn long.

Front

There is a photo of him with pine tar on his hand on the July 20 game against the White Sox in Detroit that I went to.

The Sox lost that game. With Contreras on the bump. The score? 2-1.

Make of it what you will.

Me = :angry:

Soxfanspcu11
10-25-2006, 07:34 PM
There is a photo of him with pine tar on his hand on the July 20 game against the White Sox in Detroit that I went to.

The Sox lost that game. With Contreras on the bump. The score? 2-1.

Make of it what you will.

Me = :angry:


Well, that's complete bull****.

Everyone knows that Kenny Rogers is a complete **** stain. The camera incident, the SECOND camera incident, the cheating.

Does anyone remember the allstar game in '05 at Commerica Park in Detroit? Remember during the introductions how bad the Tigers fans booed him??? I just remembered that, oh the irony!

Anyway, about the radar gun discussions earlier in the thread. The Fox gun may be "juiced" or whatever, but the Comcast gun also had HGH Zumaya throwing 103 earlier this year, so.........................:?:

Green
10-25-2006, 08:45 PM
This is a picture of Rogers against the Sox on July 20th (Tigers won 2-1)
http://i.a.cnn.net./si/multimedia/photo_gallery/0610/gallery.mlb.rogers/images/rogers10.jpg
Notice anything? (Besides his crazy facial expressions that he always has)

PKalltheway
10-25-2006, 09:16 PM
What I want to know is why LaRussa decided to take the high road for pine tar, but accused the Sox of stealing signs?
I think it was Dave Duncan that actually accused the Sox of stealing signs.

Frankfan4life
10-25-2006, 09:17 PM
It's hard for me to believe that some fans actually don't care that Rogers is cheating. Obviously, if he is allowed to continue to cheat then every pitcher is going to have to cheat otherwise they'll be at a disadvantage or they'll be considered idiots. Is this what fans want?

And please don't tell me that they all cheat unless you know it to be a fact.

CLR01
10-25-2006, 09:21 PM
I think it was Dave Duncan that actually accused the Sox of stealing signs.

Yeah, poor little baby was upset his son got drilled. :whiner: :whiner: :whiner:

Oblong
10-25-2006, 09:35 PM
Why do some consider stealing signs to be cheating? I can understand if you are using cameras or zoom lenses or things like that. But if you know that the manager with his hat off means pitch out, then go for it. Isn't that part of the game? Isn't that just like guessing what's coming next based on pitching patterns?

23Ventura
10-25-2006, 10:27 PM
Why do some consider stealing signs to be cheating? I can understand if you are using cameras or zoom lenses or things like that. But if you know that the manager with his hat off means pitch out, then go for it. Isn't that part of the game? Isn't that just like guessing what's coming next based on pitching patterns?
Agreed. I've never understood what the big deal was. If you don't want people stealing your signs, make them harder to steal.

Myrtle72
10-25-2006, 10:55 PM
Why do some consider stealing signs to be cheating? I can understand if you are using cameras or zoom lenses or things like that. But if you know that the manager with his hat off means pitch out, then go for it. Isn't that part of the game? Isn't that just like guessing what's coming next based on pitching patterns?

Those are probably the same people who believe that when the Sox did well off of Verlander they were cheating by possibly being able to figure out his pitches ahead of time.

Bill Naharodny
10-25-2006, 11:49 PM
Here is the coup de grace from the SI article 'cheeses' posted and answers Lip's speculation on La Russa:

"I bet Tony La Russa's pitchers are mad at him for saying anything, because a lot of guys do it, and I'd be surprise if there's a whole staff of guys who don't do it. In fact, I'd say a majority of guys use one of the three -- shaving cream, suntan lotion or pine tar. They can't like him ratting out the other team when everyone does it. Maybe he had to say something because it's the World Series, it's on TV and he probably has to answer to his owner.

"But you'll notice he didn't continue to talk about it, and he instructed his guys not to talk about it. They probably have no interest in catching Rogers because if they do then the umpire is looking at everyone.''

Anyone on the White Sox rubbing their arms a la David Wells or dipping into their back pocket?

Just for fun, I'd say IF they're were one, it would be Buehrle, simply because he's the crafty "non-stuff, needs movement" type -- and he does wipe his face and head quite a bit. But if it were true, I'd advise Mark to get some better pine tar for next year. :smile:

The other guy would be Freddy -- he strikes me as a guy who'll become more and more of a junkballer and "edge" pitcher the older he gets. His transition from the hard stuff has already started, and I'll bet he'll be increasingly good at making the switch as time goes on. Plus he sweats profusely, and wipes himself down a lot -- which that article would indicate is helpful in these matters.

So, Freddy, if you're inclined to use pine tar, suntan lotion, shaving cream, or even Old Spice, I say: Godspeed, my friend. May you be as successful as nutjob Kenny Rogers.

shoelessshaun27!
10-26-2006, 06:58 AM
I hate Kenny Rogers.

Frontman
10-26-2006, 07:39 AM
Why do some consider stealing signs to be cheating? I can understand if you are using cameras or zoom lenses or things like that. But if you know that the manager with his hat off means pitch out, then go for it. Isn't that part of the game? Isn't that just like guessing what's coming next based on pitching patterns?

All sports have cheating. All sports have cheating overlooked. Do you really think Michael Jordan's last shot as a Bull for the title was a clean play? He completely pushed off to make that shot. But noone was about to call him on it, knowing it was the final seconds of that game. The same that football players "reach forward" after being taken down, acting as if the ball is a good 1-2 yards farther due to them putting it there. Sometimes the line judge gets it right, other times it gets placed a bit further than it really should.

Baseball is all about trying to get one over on the other team. From stealing signs, to *ahem* dropped third strikes; baseball is all about heads up, did I do something that the other team isn't aware of. I think Rogers history of being a weapons-grade airhole, plus the fact that he did it all damn year is what fans are pissed with.

Front

Oblong
10-26-2006, 07:56 AM
Those are probably the same people who believe that when the Sox did well off of Verlander they were cheating by possibly being able to figure out his pitches ahead of time.

Leyland didn't say the Sox were cheating. He said he suspected that Verlander was tipping his changeup. That's on Verlander, not the Sox. My view on that is if he really thinks that, then don't make it public. Fix what you think is wrong and then next time "tip your pitch" but instead of a changeup throw a fastball.

soxinem1
10-26-2006, 11:12 AM
Those are probably the same people who believe that when the Sox did well off of Verlander they were cheating by possibly being able to figure out his pitches ahead of time.

It sounds better than saying 'Hey, the White Sox just have his number, that's all.'

Accusing a team of sign-stealing is childish, even if it's true. Hell, we steal signs in Little League All-Star Tournaments.

esbrechtel
10-26-2006, 04:06 PM
before you know it rogers is going to have to resort to putting jalepeno juice up his nose (like major league)