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idseer
03-03-2002, 02:19 PM
one of the questions was why he traded lowe.

his reply was that lowe wasn't going to make the club.

i'm wondering how this squares with most of you (including me) who thought lowe was one heck of a pitcher.

doublem23
03-03-2002, 02:24 PM
I think it's become pretty obvious to everyone that Sean did something to piss someone off in one of the offices in Comiskey Park. Getting sent to Charlotte last year and then getting packaged in a trade for TODD RITCHIE of all people... Something is rotten in the state of Denmark.

The guy's done nothing but show up when he's been called upon. Dumping him was a stupid move.

:reinsy
Don't get on my bad side.

:ohno
So that explains it.

czalgosz
03-03-2002, 02:25 PM
Originally posted by idseer
one of the questions was why he traded lowe.

his reply was that lowe wasn't going to make the club.

i'm wondering how this squares with most of you (including me) who thought lowe was one heck of a pitcher.

I liked Lowe, he had a lot of heart, and he put together some gutty performances, but if he was still on the team, there would be problems right now. The Sox would be gearing him towards the bullpen, and he would want to be a starter. I think this works out best for both Lowe and the Sox - Lowe will get his wish and be a starter for the Pirates, while the Sox got someone who will last past the 5th inning.

I'm on record here as saying that the only guy out of those three that the Sox will miss will be Josh Fogg.

CubKilla
03-03-2002, 03:29 PM
It wouldn't surprise me if, given the White Sox still had Lowe, KW wasn't telling the truth. He didn't make the team at the beginning of last year and with the emergence of Buehrle, the return of Parque, and the organizations desire to go with Garland he probably would have been used in relief. If K. Wells wasn't traded Manuel probably would have penciled him in before Lowe too. I liked Sean and was sad to see him go. Hopefully Ritchie will have a great season and we won't be wondering, "What if....."

Lisa
03-03-2002, 03:37 PM
I loved Sean. He was the most consistent pitcher for the Sox last year, and he stepped in time and again to save their butts. If he wasn't going to make the team, that's a sad commentary on our talent recognition. Apparently hard work and gritty performances aren't enough to make the team. If he was Panamanian he'd have be set.

That having been said, I know for a fact Lowe was tired of getting butt**** by the Sox, and he's really excited about starting in Pittsburgh. I'm thinking of braving the rattrap and seeing him when he plays the Cubs.

baggio202
03-03-2002, 03:59 PM
sean lowe was 17-6 the last three and years and williams said he couldnt make the staff??..oh yeah..jim parque and his 4.97 career era is so much better than lowe...what was i thinking....and gary glover and his 4.90 whatever era...lowe is worse than guys like barcelo,osuna,biddle....what a dumbass...this guy is worse than hawk harrelson


he is gonna kill this team...if we were in the AL west we would be the worst team in that division..the third worst in the east...two years ago under schueler we won 95 games before the unbalanced schedule and had the best regular season record in the AL...

that statement.."sean lowe wouldnt make this team"...sums up kenny williams tenure here..he is a moron and in two years we will be lucky to win 70 games....

kermittheefrog
03-03-2002, 04:04 PM
Originally posted by idseer
one of the questions was why he traded lowe.

his reply was that lowe wasn't going to make the club.

i'm wondering how this squares with most of you (including me) who thought lowe was one heck of a pitcher.

Was this a radio interview or something? If not is it posted on a website?

doublem23
03-03-2002, 04:04 PM
Originally posted by baggio202
and gary glover and his 4.90 whatever era

You can't say a pitcher sucks or is good based on his first 101.1 IP of major league expierence.

Daver
03-03-2002, 04:07 PM
Originally posted by kermittheefrog


Was this a radio interview or something? If not is it posted on a website?

It was on ESPN AM 1000 this morning.

LongDistanceFan
03-03-2002, 04:10 PM
Originally posted by Lisa
If he was Panamanian he'd have be set.

that is a REAL CHEAP comment to make with out proof........

baggio202
03-03-2002, 04:10 PM
Originally posted by doublem23


You can't say a pitcher sucks or is good based on his first 101.1 IP of major league expierence.

i never said glover sucked..i said he is not better than sean lowe

and moron kenny williams should have taken what you said into account before trading kip wells...400 ip and age 27 is what scouts say a pitcher needs to develop

baggio202
03-03-2002, 04:18 PM
Originally posted by LongDistanceFan
that is a REAP CHEAP comment to make with out proof........

there is some proof..read jerry reinsdorf's view on minority business..he said he is giving contracts out to vendors and such for comiskey that are minorities...he said that it should mirror the make up of the south side...guess he forgot about the white neighborhood just west of comiskey that supported the sox for over 100 years now...this story is on the mlb site if you want to read it for yourself...

so if youre a white guy and you want a vending contract with the sox..change your last name to gonzalez

LongDistanceFan
03-03-2002, 04:22 PM
Originally posted by baggio202


there is some proof..read jerry reinsdorf's view on minority business..he said he is giving contracts out to vendors and such for comiskey that are minorities...he said that it should mirror the make up of the south side...guess he forgot about the white neighborhood just west of comiskey that supported the sox for over 100 years now...this story is on the mlb site if you want to read it for yourself...

so if youre a white guy and you want a vending contract with the sox..change your last name to gonzalez that has nothing to do with talent and anybody who tries to run a baseball team like that is screwed up.............. i mean putting talent on the field.............

now i have said the hiring of kw intrigues me for the obvious, but there is no proof of anything else.

idseer
03-03-2002, 04:44 PM
Originally posted by kermittheefrog


Was this a radio interview or something? If not is it posted on a website?

actually i got it second hand on the espn board, but from a guy i fairly trust. i didn't hear the interview myself.
daver seems to verify it tho so i'm confident it's accurate.

i thought it was a pretty strange thing for him to say myself. if it WAS just because he pissed someone off i would still think they would've still realized his value was a little higher. since they let him go cheap i believe KW just didn't appreciate his value.

it's funny, i've said for years now that the sox will never get to that next level (world series) under the current leadership. even tho i'm very optimistic about the upcoming season, it's things like this quote that lead me to believe i'm still expecting too much.

PaleHoseGeorge
03-03-2002, 05:01 PM
I think a compelling case can be made showing Sean Lowe was the most effective middle reliever on the team last year. What could Kenny Williams be thinking?

I'm not one of those people who thinks Lowe should have been given a shot in the starting rotation. We're stacked with young guns who ought to have long careers ahead of them vying for those slots. Lowe was making a major contribution to the team right where he was.

Besides the obvious ego trip of starting, I'm sure Lowe was motivated by the big money starting pitchers command. I don't blame him for asking for the opportunity. If he is going to start, I'm glad it is for Pittsburgh and not the Sox.

RedPinStripes
03-03-2002, 05:02 PM
KW just made another stupid statment. How in the hell can San not be good enough for this team? He needs better bull****ting skills. That was just stupid to say that. Osuna, Parque, and Wright were all locks for the roster then huh? I guess they're all better then Sean and helped the team more then he did the past 2 years.

baggio202
03-03-2002, 06:13 PM
RPS...im gonna send that quote to mandy lowe...she can give it to sean to put up by his locker for motivation...it would be funny as hell if sean won 20 games this year

RedPinStripes
03-03-2002, 06:38 PM
Originally posted by baggio202
RPS...im gonna send that quote to mandy lowe...she can give it to sean to put up by his locker for motivation...it would be funny as hell if sean won 20 games this year

I don't know about 20 with pitt, but I'm sure he'll do well. KW is just a true idiot for saying that. Tell mandy i said hi.

duke of dorwood
03-03-2002, 07:39 PM
:KW


NOW APPEARING AT ZANIES


Jees!

LongDistanceFan
03-03-2002, 07:47 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
I think a compelling case can be made showing Sean Lowe was the most effective middle reliever on the team last year. What could Kenny Williams be thinking?

I'm not one of those people who thinks Lowe should have been given a shot in the starting rotation. We're stacked with young guns who ought to have long careers ahead of them vying for those slots. Lowe was making a major contribution to the team right where he was.

Besides the obvious ego trip of starting, I'm sure Lowe was motivated by the big money starting pitchers command. I don't blame him for asking for the opportunity. If he is going to start, I'm glad it is for Pittsburgh and not the Sox. i liked lowe as well and k. wells,

Lisa
03-03-2002, 09:23 PM
that is a REAL CHEAP comment to make without proof

I wasn't referring to minority hiring practices, a subject that I think has been overblown and used as an excuse too many times. I was specifically referring to Carlos Lee, who sucks, yet the organization seems to want to sign him to a lifetime contract. Sorry if I was unclear.

LongDistanceFan
03-03-2002, 09:38 PM
Originally posted by Lisa


I wasn't referring to minority hiring practices, a subject that I think has been overblown and used as an excuse too many times. I was specifically referring to Carlos Lee, who sucks, yet the organization seems to want to sign him to a lifetime contract. Sorry if I was unclear. >>>>. If he was Panamanian he'd have be set. <<<<< was a very inappropriate comment almost irresponbible .......... it made you look as a racist to me....

but i will take what you said. if ref to c. lee then name him, not his nationality ..........

how can you compare a pict talent to an "of" its like apples and oranges........

lee suppose to offer more on offense and therefore more valuable to the team........ i think most here will agree with you on lowe getting screwed.

Lisa
03-04-2002, 12:47 AM
>>>>. If he was Panamanian he'd have be set. <<<<< was a very inappropriate comment almost irresponbible .......... it made you look as a racist to me....

lol - sorry, but that's pretty funny. Others here will get the joke. (RPS - wanna take this one? :D: ) However, it's pretty inappropriate - almost irresponsible - to toss that kind of name at someone you've never met, barely talked to, and don't know on the basis of one quote. if you have an issue with the way I worded it, that's fine, but the personal attack was certainly unnecessary.

but i will take what you said. if ref to c. lee then name him, not his nationality ..........

This is all you had to say. But I did already clarify and apologize for the confusion in my earlier post. And I will say this - although I don't ever go out of my way to offend anyone (except maybe Cubs fans and trolls), I will not be working overtime to edit and reword in order to be PC. If something is misunderstood, I will clarify and apologize for the confusion. But I will almost never apologize for my statements, since there is no malice behind them.

LongDistanceFan
03-04-2002, 12:55 AM
Originally posted by Lisa


lol - sorry, but that's pretty funny. Others here will get the joke. However, it's pretty inappropriate - almost irresponsible - to toss that kind of name at someone you've never met, barely talked to, and don't know on the basis of one quote. if you have an issue with the way I worded it, that's fine, but the personal attack was certainly unnecessary.

then what is the joke........... explain this to me and others......... see no one is really coming to your defense are they?

hey sweetie, this is not a personal attack..............

you wrote.........>>>>> I wasn't referring to minority hiring practices <<< what do you think ball players are???????? are they not hired by the sox organization??????

we have agreed that your comment was stupid and uncalled for.

RedPinStripes
03-04-2002, 01:07 AM
Originally posted by Lisa


Others here will get the joke. (RPS - wanna take this one? :D: them.

I'm not touching that one :D:

RedPinStripes
03-04-2002, 01:08 AM
Originally posted by LongDistanceFan
then what is the joke........... explain this to me and others......... see no one is really coming to your defense are they?

hey sweetie, this is not a personal attack..............

you wrote.........>>>>> I wasn't referring to minority hiring practices <<< what do you think ball players are???????? are they not hired by the sox organization??????

we have agreed that your comment was stupid and uncalled for.

You seem to be the only one commenting about it and concerned. That sounds personal to me.

LongDistanceFan
03-04-2002, 08:12 AM
when someone make, what i percieved as a racist comment, i will respond............ i pointed out what i thought and now responding to you and lisa response............. am i not suppose to respond...

do you condone such comments to be made and posted here?????

now lets assumed it from someone you don't know and that person said that, would you not say something about it......... we know you know lisa, but tell the truth...............

do you actually condone persons saying comments like that............ plain and simple

harwar
03-04-2002, 09:06 AM
Originally posted by idseer
one of the questions was why he traded lowe.

his reply was that lowe wasn't going to make the club.

i'm wondering how this squares with most of you (including me) who thought lowe was one heck of a pitcher.

You hit a nerve here with me.I was FURIOUS when i heard about the trade.I didn't like it then and i still don't like it.Sean Lowe was one my favorite players.Not only because i met him in a bar in key west and he was great but because he is what most teams that win it all have.A great middle reliever.Who knows how Osusna and Barcello are going to do after surgery.Sean was also a leader in the Sox clubhouse and EVERYONE(save maybe clayton)was angry or sad about the trade.If the trade had been for a higher caliber of pitcher then maybe... oh well,its too late now and we just have to hope for the best.

Jerry_Manuel
03-04-2002, 11:51 AM
he was great but because he is what most teams that win it all have.A great middle reliever.Who knows how Osusna and Barcello are going to do after surgery.

That's the problem, harwar. Sean thinks he should be in the starting rotation, the Sox didn't feel that way. So he was traded to a team that will give him what he wants, a chance to start.

Lisa
03-04-2002, 12:39 PM
Originally posted by LongDistanceFan
do you condone such comments to be made and posted here?????

now lets assumed it from someone you don't know and that person said that, would you not say something about it......... we know you know lisa, but tell the truth...............

do you actually condone persons saying comments like that............ plain and simple

I didn't make a bad comment. Youmisinterpreted it. Plain and simple. If I had bad intentions, that would be different. But I didn't. And as far as no one coming to my defense, it wasn't a big surprise considering it was the middle of the night/early morning. And thanks to RPS for his comment.

My point is this, and this is the last comment I'll make on the matter: it's wrong to judge a person on one or two comments. If someone was, in almost every post, making clear racist comments with the INTENTION of bing racist, then yeah, I think everyone here would call them on it. But if you're going to carry the mantle of tolerance, LDF, then maybe you should look beyond the one comment you're judging me on. If you really want to know - I'm a member of the NAACP, I teach civil rights to high school kids, and I've intentionally sought out teaching positions in schools with underrepresented minorites. But if you insist on calling me a racist based on one misunderstood comment, be my guest. I can't please everyone, nor do I care to try.

Lisa
03-04-2002, 12:48 PM
Originally posted by Jerry_Manuel


That's the problem, harwar. Sean thinks he should be in the starting rotation, the Sox didn't feel that way. So he was traded to a team that will give him what he wants, a chance to start.

Granted, Sean was not going ot have the opportunity to start in Chicago. There's just too many pitching prospects for him to have had a chance. That having been said, the Sox were still stupid - for the good of the team - to let him go. He was one of our only pitchers who wasn't injured, and he was consistent. I think the Sox are overrating what they're going to get out of these pitchers coming off of injury.

LongDistanceFan
03-04-2002, 12:51 PM
Originally posted by Lisa


Granted, Sean was not going ot have the opportunity to start in Chicago. There's just too many pitching prospects for him to have had a chance. That having been said, the Sox were still stupid - for the good of the team - to let him go. He was one of our only pitchers who wasn't injured, and he was consistent. I think the Sox are overrating what they're going to get out of these pitchers coming off of injury. and with this agree, but not only with sean but others we gave up to acquire ritchie............... way too much to give up

LongDistanceFan
03-04-2002, 12:59 PM
Originally posted by Lisa


I didn't make a bad comment. Youmisinterpreted it. Plain and simple. If I had bad intentions, that would be different. But I didn't. And as far as no one coming to my defense, it wasn't a big surprise considering it was the middle of the night/early morning. And thanks to RPS for his comment.

My point is this, and this is the last comment I'll make on the matter: it's wrong to judge a person on one or two comments. If someone was, in almost every post, making clear racist comments with the INTENTION of bing racist, then yeah, I think everyone here would call them on it. But if you're going to carry the mantle of tolerance, LDF, then maybe you should look beyond the one comment you're judging me on. If you really want to know - I'm a member of the NAACP, I teach civil rights to high school kids, and I've intentionally sought out teaching positions in schools with underrepresented minorites. But if you insist on calling me a racist based on one misunderstood comment, be my guest. I can't please everyone, nor do I care to try. all i said was the comment was real cheap, and later i said that it was uncalled for.............

well you teach civil rights and part of the naacp, it does not make one immune to being a racist.......... not that i am calling you one...... so i am a minority myself........... i know what civil rights is and was part of the civil rights office for the govt sevice for 16 ys and been involve in many court cases b/c of civil rights.......... so being a member of the naacp does not cut it with me.......... i have known people of color who are reverse racist...

i said that on perception, i can perceived what you wrote as a racist comment.......... you being a teacher should know what perception is and mean on paper, being spoken and as it is intended in the work place.

btw, i am part of the black correlation as well...............

hold2dibber
03-04-2002, 01:38 PM
Originally posted by harwar


You hit a nerve here with me.I was FURIOUS when i heard about the trade.I didn't like it then and i still don't like it.Sean Lowe was one my favorite players.Not only because i met him in a bar in key west and he was great but because he is what most teams that win it all have.A great middle reliever.Who knows how Osusna and Barcello are going to do after surgery.Sean was also a leader in the Sox clubhouse and EVERYONE(save maybe clayton)was angry or sad about the trade.If the trade had been for a higher caliber of pitcher then maybe... oh well,its too late now and we just have to hope for the best.

Listen, Sean Lowe was and is a decent pitcher. But it is crazy to say he is "a great middle reliever." He's a little better than average and he's versatile, but that's about the best you can say. He's not going to be more than that, and he absolutely is not a starter. He'll give some decent performances as a starter, but he'll get shelled just as often. I have nothing against Lowe and thought he was a big asset to the team last year. And although I like Ritchie and agree that they needed someone like him (i.e., proven 200 IP/year starter who will keep you in games), I suspect they gave up too much for him. That said, let's not try to turn Sean Lowe into Pedro Martinez here. He's a decent, versatile pitcher, but he is far from unreplaceable.

PaleHoseGeorge
03-04-2002, 01:40 PM
Look, in the interest of heading off a major fight, can we agree the best way to describe KW's strange and curious interest in signing El Caballo to a two-year deal is mostly due to the ballplayer's low batting average and lousy defense last year, more than his ethnicity?

Lisa is right that KW's interest is strange, though I think it's still a smart move because Lee's value will never be lower, and plenty of other teams will still be willing to make a deal with the Sox for Lee's bargain basement contract, even if Lee has another sub-par season in 2002. KW is locking in Lee when his value is low.

Racism is a pretty serious charge--and should not be leveled without obvious intent. Let's not go there. :(:

Lisa
03-04-2002, 01:51 PM
I agree that IF the Sox had the intention of going with Lee this year, which they obviously do, then signing him was definitely a good move. I'm wondering, htough, why he wasn't traded for a top starting pitcher. Let's assume, for a second, that the organization was dead set on the Lowe/Wells/Fogg for Ritchie trade. If we traded Lee for, say, Appier (which was an idea tossed around that I liked a lot) or any other top pitcher, our rotation would have looked like this:

Appier or other top pitcher
Ritchie
Buehrle
Parque
Garland or Wright (Garland is my bet)

That's a much stronger rotation than our possibilities now. I would have liked even more if we had signed Sele, who signed for a surprisingly low amount. It seems like the Sox didn't even pursue that possibility. We seem to be misusing our resources, and as a result we still have a question mark on the pitching staff and an overload in the outfield and at 3B.

Randar68
03-04-2002, 02:02 PM
Originally posted by Lisa
I agree that IF the Sox had the intention of going with Lee this year, which they obviously do, then signing him was definitely a good move. I'm wondering, htough, why he wasn't traded for a top starting pitcher. Let's assume, for a second, that the organization was dead set on the Lowe/Wells/Fogg for Ritchie trade. If we traded Lee for, say, Appier (which was an idea tossed around that I liked a lot) or any other top pitcher, our rotation would have looked like this:

Appier or other top pitcher
Ritchie
Buehrle
Parque
Garland or Wright (Garland is my bet)

That's a much stronger rotation than our possibilities now. I would have liked even more if we had signed Sele, who signed for a surprisingly low amount. It seems like the Sox didn't even pursue that possibility. We seem to be misusing our resources, and as a result we still have a question mark on the pitching staff and an overload in the outfield and at 3B.


Appier or Sele?

Come on, you have to be kidding. Now THAT would be misusing resources. Sele only thrived in the first half because they were calling the high strikes. They didn't in the second half and he struggled.

As for Appier, I would rather give one of 4 or 5 youngsters on our team that spot.

rmusacch
03-04-2002, 02:08 PM
Originally posted by Lisa

If we traded Lee for, say, Appier (which was an idea tossed around that I liked a lot) or any other top pitcher, our rotation would have looked like this:



Just a hunch, but I am thinking the Mets would not have taken Lee straight up for Appier.

Lisa
03-04-2002, 02:14 PM
No but we would have had to give up little else. Certainly not as much as we gave up for Ritchie. Appier, Sele, or whoever else you prefer to put in that spot, it doesn't matter. The point is, we overspent for an average pitcher and haven't dealt with our position player overload.

baggio202
03-04-2002, 02:24 PM
Originally posted by LongDistanceFan
when someone make, what i percieved as a racist comment, i will respond............ i pointed out what i thought and now responding to you and lisa response............. am i not suppose to respond...

do you condone such comments to be made and posted here?????

now lets assumed it from someone you don't know and that person said that, would you not say something about it......... we know you know lisa, but tell the truth...............

do you actually condone persons saying comments like that............ plain and simple


its pretty obvious what she meant..thats why no one else commented on it....she is refering to carlos lee and his horrible 2nd half of the season...which when you take into account offense ,defense and baserunning might be the worst half season of baseball ever played by a sox lf...and he gets rewarded with a multi-million dollar contract...

in your zealousness to personally attack another poster with a kneejerk reaction, you failed to take the time to understand what she was really saying...maybe next time you should ask someone to clarify something that seems a little off to you..

i know lisa personally...if she is racist then 99.999% of all white people in this country are..but then again there are minorities out there that really believe that...perception is a two way street

FarWestChicago
03-04-2002, 02:27 PM
OK, that's enough of this thread.