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View Full Version : Macha speaks out on Beane


Jerry_Manuel
10-22-2006, 09:30 AM
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2634647

Figured this was a little different then the Macha is fired thread.

Feel free to merge.

MUsoxfan
10-22-2006, 09:38 AM
"The reason I was fired," he told the San Francisco Chronicle, "[was] there was too much interference."


Shocking

DrCrawdad
10-22-2006, 09:41 AM
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2634647

Figured this was a little different then the Macha is fired thread.

Feel free to merge.


I guess Macha isn't a lifetime member of FOBB.

jabrch
10-22-2006, 11:10 AM
Beane hired what he hoped would be a pansy he could push around. Now that he found he actually hired a person who thinks on his own, rather than just bows down to Beane's computations, he fired him.

Good - let's see what's next in Oakland.

FarWestChicago
10-22-2006, 11:13 AM
Beane hired what he hoped would be a pansy he could push around. Now that he found he actually hired a person who thinks on his own, rather than just bows down to Beane's computations, he fired him.

Good - let's see what's next in Oakland.Working for a micromanaging, egomaniacal, back stabbing, undermining jerk like Beane would have to be the worst manager job in baseball, if not all of pro sports. And, you get to make peanuts compared to your peers on top of it. Sure, several hundred thousand looks good to the average person. But, you can be like Crusty and make several million to suck. :D:

jabrch
10-22-2006, 11:28 AM
Working for a micromanaging, egomaniacal, back stabbing, undermining jerk like Beane would have to be the worst manager job in baseball, if not all of pro sports. And, you get to make peanuts compared to your peers on top of it. Sure, several hundred thousand looks good to the average person. But, you can be like Crusty and make several million to suck. :D:

He will have no problem finding a bench coach in Stockton or something like that to take it. But since Beane's philosophy diminishes the need for a manager who manages, because the calculator tells you exactly who to play when, he's never going to get a top tier veteran manager.

I just can't wait until the steroids wear off in Oakland (residuals like all the players/picks they got for trading/losing roidmonsters a few years ago) and compensatory picks are gone. What's he going to do next?

fquaye149
10-22-2006, 11:37 AM
Beane hired what he hoped would be a pansy he could push around. Now that he found he actually hired a person who thinks on his own, rather than just bows down to Beane's computations, he fired him.

Good - let's see what's next in Oakland.

I'm sure there's some of that stuff going on. But it really seems like the players hated the **** out of Macha. You really don't see this kind of slamming of an ex manager, period:

http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2006/10/17/AS.TMP&type=as

the most significant quote, imo:

"I heard Steve Phillips on ESPN saying, 'I don't understand this move because those guys were playing (well) for Macha,' '' Kotsay said. "Well, we didn't play for him. This collective group wanted to win together, we felt we have a chance to win together, and we provided the leadership. The core guys who went out and played every day were the leaders of the team and carried us through the uncertainty. If there were problems, they were dealt with among the 25 guys.''
There were concerns from a strictly managerial standpoint, too.
"Everyone thought it was weird Kotsay didn't hit against left-handers the last two months of the season, he's so great defensively,'' starter Dan Haren said. "And it was unfair to sit him two months against lefties and then all of a sudden throw him in there in the playoffs against tough lefties like (Johan) Santana and Kenny Rogers. I don't think Macha handled that correctly.

jabrch
10-22-2006, 11:50 AM
I'm sure there's some of that stuff going on. But it really seems like the players hated the **** out of Macha. You really don't see this kind of slamming of an ex manager, period:

http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2006/10/17/AS.TMP&type=as

the most significant quote, imo:

Kotsay knows where his bread is buttered. What do you expect from him? Loyalty to his manager? Professionalism to keep his mouth shut? No, you'd expect him to behave exactly as his boss (Beane) tells him to. Kotsay his .275/.332/.386 this year. Maybe if he's have shut his mouth and gone out there and worked harder, he wouldn't have been another crappy piece of a crappy offense?

You are right - you don't see that kind of slamming of an ex-manager, unless it starts with your GM who encourages it. Players don't behave like that on their own, certainly not guys who sucked as bad as Kotsay did last year.

FarWestChicago
10-22-2006, 11:56 AM
Kotsay knows where his bread is buttered. What do you expect from him? Loyalty to his manager? Professionalism to keep his mouth shut? No, you'd expect him to behave exactly as his boss (Beane) tells him to. Kotsay his .275/.332/.386 this year. Maybe if he's have shut his mouth and gone out there and worked harder, he wouldn't have been another crappy piece of a crappy offense?

You are right - you don't see that kind of slamming of an ex-manager, unless it starts with your GM who encourages it. Players don't behave like that on their own, certainly not guys who sucked as bad as Kotsay did last year.:thumbsup: You hit that nail right on the head. A boss undermined by his own boss is totally screwed. I would never work in an environment like that.

fquaye149
10-22-2006, 11:59 AM
Kotsay knows where his bread is buttered. What do you expect from him? Loyalty to his manager? Professionalism to keep his mouth shut? No, you'd expect him to behave exactly as his boss (Beane) tells him to. Kotsay his .275/.332/.386 this year. Maybe if he's have shut his mouth and gone out there and worked harder, he wouldn't have been another crappy piece of a crappy offense?

You are right - you don't see that kind of slamming of an ex-manager, unless it starts with your GM who encourages it. Players don't behave like that on their own, certainly not guys who sucked as bad as Kotsay did last year.

Well, if you'll read the article you'll see Chavez, Zito (who's going to be a free agent this year), and Kendall all rip Macha, and badly.

Mod edit: Four paragraphs is far beyond "fair use." You've been around here long enough to know that. Take three days off.

It's not just Kotsay, and the fact that Zito joins in suggests that Beane's encouragement doesn't have EVERYTHING to do with it. I'm sure Beane has a lot to do with it, but these quotes certainly suggest Macha was not cutting it. I doubt anyone will be able to work for Beane for any period of time, but Macha hardly seems like a guy I'd want anywhere around the White Sox clubhouse

southside rocks
10-22-2006, 12:02 PM
You are right - you don't see that kind of slamming of an ex-manager, unless it starts with your GM who encourages it. Players don't behave like that on their own, certainly not guys who sucked as bad as Kotsay did last year.

I think you're right about this.

Good gosh, look at the Cubs and Dusty Baker -- he took that team to the worst record in the National League this year, and he made some absolutely awful moves with most of the roster. When he got shown the door, none of the Cubs players made comments like that; in fact, they all did the obligatory 'make nice' stuff even as they said how happy they are to see new management.

Not saying that Macha a great manager, but come on, Buck Showalter's worse and he didn't draw this much fire! Beane's got to be behind the attacks on Macha.

Very classy. :(:

FarWestChicago
10-22-2006, 12:03 PM
Well, if you'll read the article you'll see Chavez, Zito (who's going to be a free agent this year), and Kendall all rip Macha, and badly.

It's not just Kotsay, and the fact that Zito joins in suggests that Beane's encouragement doesn't have EVERYTHING to do with it.There is nothing logical in this post. You should stick to defending rap. :D:

Beane drives a wedge between the manager and the players. It feeds his ego. That causes the whole mess. I have seen managers in business destroyed the same way.

fquaye149
10-22-2006, 12:04 PM
I think you're right about this.

Good gosh, look at the Cubs and Dusty Baker -- he took that team to the worst record in the National League this year, and he made some absolutely awful moves with most of the roster. When he got shown the door, none of the Cubs players made comments like that; in fact, they all did the obligatory 'make nice' stuff even as they said how happy they are to see new management.

Not saying that Macha a great manager, but come on, Buck Showalter's worse and he didn't draw this much fire! Beane's got to be behind the attacks on Macha.

Very classy. :(:

I just don't understand what Zito would have to gain by trumping up something about his ex-manager when nothing's there. The guy's going to be a free agent and ability to get along with a manager will probably be a concern when he's signed. If Zito's speaking up there must have been a pretty big problem b/t him and Macha; it certainly doesn't seem like Beane would hold much sway over Zito, especially since it's nearly 100% Zito won't be back.

fquaye149
10-22-2006, 12:05 PM
There is nothing logical in this post. You should stick to defending rap. :D:

Beane drives a wedge between the manager and the players. It feeds his ego. That causes the whole mess. I have seen managers in business destroyed the same way.

Fair enough. We agree that Beane is a toolbox...I just don't remember this venom when Howe left.

FarWestChicago
10-22-2006, 12:05 PM
Not saying that Macha a great manager, but come on, Buck Showalter's worse and he didn't draw this much fire! Beane's got to be behind the attacks on Macha.

Very classy. :(:Excellent point. Of course, the FOBB's will never understand this. :smile:

jabrch
10-22-2006, 12:05 PM
Well, if you'll read the article you'll see Chavez, Zito (who's going to be a free agent this year), and Kendall all rip Macha, and badly.

Of course! All of them do. What are they supposed to do? Side with Macha or Beane?

It's funny, one of them said that Macha doesn't defend his players, but Ozzie does. ****, Ozzie's players all bought him a freaking bus because he is known for throwing them under it so much.

Whiney, bitchy, crybabies - all of them. **** and play baseball.

They sided with their GM who just fired their coach...no kidding?

FarWestChicago
10-22-2006, 12:06 PM
Fair enough. We agree that Beane is a toolbox...I just don't remember this venom when Howe left.I don't think Howe ever stood up to Beane. That's the big difference.

fquaye149
10-22-2006, 12:07 PM
Of course! All of them do. What are they supposed to do? Side with Macha or Beane?

It's funny, one of them said that Macha doesn't defend his players, but Ozzie does. ****, Ozzie's players all bought him a freaking bus because he is known for throwing them under it so much.

Whiney, bitchy, crybabies - all of them. **** and play baseball.

They sided with their GM who just fired their coach...no kidding?

We've been over this Jabrch. Ozzie doesn't throw his real players under the bus. He throws BA's (although I wholeheartedly disagree with this), Sean Traceys, and Juan Uribe's under the bus. He goes to the wall for AJ's and Dye's, and Konerko's and the like.

And I still don't understand why Zito would "side" with his GM? I can completely see Chavez and Kendall and especially Kotsay, but Zito?

jabrch
10-22-2006, 12:08 PM
especially since it's nearly 100% Zito won't be back.

You are mistaken here. This is by no means a foregone conclusion. Beane is working to resign Zito. If he can get him to sign without a no trade clause, Zito is worth more to Beane in trade value next July than the 2 draft picks he MAY get in compensation for him. There are serious negoitations between Zito's agent and Beane. He very well may end up in Oakland if no other West Coast team is ready to give him 5/75 of something like that.

southside rocks
10-22-2006, 12:08 PM
I just don't understand what Zito would have to gain by trumping up something about his ex-manager when nothing's there. The guy's going to be a free agent and ability to get along with a manager will probably be a concern when he's signed. If Zito's speaking up there must have been a pretty big problem b/t him and Macha; it certainly doesn't seem like Beane would hold much sway over Zito, especially since it's nearly 100% Zito won't be back.

Well, even if Zito isn't back with the A's (and that's not for sure yet) -- don't forget that baseball is a small, small world. There are 30 GM's in that world. Some are more powerful than others, but none are powerless.

Heck, Jerry Reinsdorf has admitted publicly that he's passed on players who were given a thumbs-down by GM's who are friends of his.

So ask this: Is Barry Zito better off in his baseball future if Billy Beane loves him, or hates him?

I'm just saying. :cool:

fquaye149
10-22-2006, 12:08 PM
I don't think Howe ever stood up to Beane. That's the big difference.

I guess I don't really know the history. I just wonder about oversimplifying things strictly out of hate for Beane, when it seems there's more than enough blame to go around.

Beane is the primary thing I hate about the A's, but I hate everything else about the team as well, besides Frank. From Macha down to Nick Swisher's stupid haircut, I don't have any love for anyone on that squad just because he has to "put up with Beane"

FarWestChicago
10-22-2006, 12:09 PM
And I still don't understand why Zito would "side" with his GM? I can completely see Chavez and Kendall and especially Kotsay, but Zito?It's the environment Beane creates. He undermines any respect a player could ever have for the manager. They know the manager is just a stooge. They don't have to have something to gain. The inmates are running the asylum and having a good time doing it.

fquaye149
10-22-2006, 12:10 PM
You are mistaken here. This is by no means a foregone conclusion. Beane is working to resign Zito. If he can get him to sign without a no trade clause, Zito is worth more to Beane in trade value next July than the 2 draft picks he MAY get in compensation for him. There are serious negoitations between Zito's agent and Beane. He very well may end up in Oakland if no other West Coast team is ready to give him 5/75 of something like that.

Zito's looking at a big payday from a NY team. I really doubt

a.) Beane can match that

b.) Zito's surfer boy manchildness will override his (and Boras's) desire to make more than 10 million dollars more by playing in NY (or Boston)

southside rocks
10-22-2006, 12:11 PM
We've been over this Jabrch. Ozzie doesn't throw his real players under the bus. He throws BA's (although I wholeheartedly disagree with this), Sean Traceys, and Juan Uribe's under the bus. He goes to the wall for AJ's and Dye's, and Konerko's and the like.


And I submit that the reason that Ozzie throws even those players under the bus, when he does, is because they have failed to play baseball as it should be played on his team.

AJ, JD, and Paulie have long since established, and continue to establish every day, that they play ball the way their manager wants them to play it. For that, and for those players, Ozzie will defend them to the death.

And even when he gets on the others, the BA's and Sean Traceys, he never lets outsiders ream them. Ozzie's team is a family.

He wants the younger, less mature players to learn the rewards of playing baseball the right way. One of those rewards is that their manager has their back 1000% of the time.

fquaye149
10-22-2006, 12:12 PM
Well, even if Zito isn't back with the A's (and that's not for sure yet) -- don't forget that baseball is a small, small world. There are 30 GM's in that world. Some are more powerful than others, but none are powerless.

Heck, Jerry Reinsdorf has admitted publicly that he's passed on players who were given a thumbs-down by GM's who are friends of his.

So ask this: Is Barry Zito better off in his baseball future if Billy Beane loves him, or hates him?

I'm just saying. :cool:

That's a good point, but the same might be said about someone who can't get along with his manager. I would expect Zito to have kept his mouth shut if it hadn't been a serious issue.

But then again West raises some good points about the attitude Beane creates, so who knows.

I hate all those morons out there. I just didn't want to spare Macha too much indignity just because he was stupid enough to manage the A's

southside rocks
10-22-2006, 12:15 PM
That's a good point, but the same might be said about someone who can't get along with his manager. I would expect Zito to have kept his mouth shut if it hadn't been a serious issue.

But then again West raises some good points about the attitude Beane creates, so who knows.

I hate all those morons out there. I just didn't want to spare Macha too much indignity just because he was stupid enough to manage the A's

True, but to a much lesser extent. The owners and GM's have the money. They are the game. The managers are personnel, just like the players.

If a player doesn't get along with a Tony LaRussa, or a Bobby Cox, or a Joe Torre, sure it can affect his future negatively.

But Ken Macha? Who he? :tongue:

jabrch
10-22-2006, 12:18 PM
Fair enough. We agree that Beane is a toolbox...I just don't remember this venom when Howe left.

Howe was gone after back-to-back 100 win seasons. What do you say about the guy then? I may be wrong on this, but my memory was that he wasn't fired, just wasn't resigned when his contract expired. (Am I off on that?)

In any case, Beane and his players aren't going to bash a guy who just took them to 100 wins. Beane believes he has built a great baseball team. His calculator says so. And Macha has missed the playoffs twice with that team. This is a smear campaign, nothing more, nothing less.

Daver
10-22-2006, 12:24 PM
It's the environment Beane creates. He undermines any respect a player could ever have for the manager. They know the manager is just a stooge. They don't have to have something to gain. The inmates are running the asylum and having a good time doing it.


Jerry Manuel will make an excellent manager for the Oakland A's..........

TornLabrum
10-22-2006, 12:24 PM
And I submit that the reason that Ozzie throws even those players under the bus, when he does, is because they have failed to play baseball as it should be played on his team.

AJ, JD, and Paulie have long since established, and continue to establish every day, that they play ball the way their manager wants them to play it. For that, and for those players, Ozzie will defend them to the death.

And even when he gets on the others, the BA's and Sean Traceys, he never lets outsiders ream them. Ozzie's team is a family.

He wants the younger, less mature players to learn the rewards of playing baseball the right way. One of those rewards is that their manager has their back 1000% of the time.

I would also note that Ozzie has publicly said that he doesn't throw anyone under the bus until he's let them know it in the locker room.

Unregistered
10-22-2006, 04:09 PM
"A number of sources have indicated that a group of players met with Beane following Macha's exit on Monday but before they met with the media. Were they coached about what they would say about the outgoing manager? Macha didn't want to speak about that publicly. Throughout the interview, he repeatedly emphasized that while he wanted to set the record straight on several matters, he preferred to take a more positive outlook on his Oakland tenure."

http://www.insidebayarea.com/sports/ci_4532511

The Dude
10-22-2006, 04:29 PM
Jerry Manuel will make an excellent manager for the Oakland A's..........

:rolling:

So funny and yet soo true!

havelj
10-22-2006, 04:52 PM
Solution:

Frank Thomas - Player/Manager.

RadioheadRocks
10-22-2006, 07:27 PM
Kotsay knows where his bread is buttered. What do you expect from him? Loyalty to his manager? Professionalism to keep his mouth shut? No, you'd expect him to behave exactly as his boss (Beane) tells him to.

Just goes to show you The Stepford Wives have nothing on Billy Beane.

"I'll just DIE if I don't get this recipe! I'll just DIE if I don't get this recipe! I'll just DIE if I don't get this recipe! I'll just DIE..."

Craig Grebeck
10-22-2006, 11:36 PM
Howe was gone after back-to-back 100 win seasons. What do you say about the guy then? I may be wrong on this, but my memory was that he wasn't fired, just wasn't resigned when his contract expired. (Am I off on that?)

In any case, Beane and his players aren't going to bash a guy who just took them to 100 wins. Beane believes he has built a great baseball team. His calculator says so. And Macha has missed the playoffs twice with that team. This is a smear campaign, nothing more, nothing less.
I get it. He uses stats. Ha. Ha. He believes he built a good team because he has had a ridiculous amount of player turnover for the last five years, yet they remain competitive every single year.

jabrch
10-23-2006, 01:18 AM
I get it. He uses stats. Ha. Ha. He believes he built a good team because he has had a ridiculous amount of player turnover for the last five years, yet they remain competitive every single year.

Stop that crap right now CraigG. That's complete horse****. There's nothing wrong with "using stats". I am a big fan of using statistics to tell me what happened. I even like statistics to try and guess what will happen. So screw you and that holier than thou bullcrap that anyone who dislikes the revolution is to dumb to understand statistics. I've got a 9 hours of grad level statistics, as well as an undergrad in Economics. I'm in a job where I use statistics every day. Don't play that bull**** on me.

He builds BAD offensive baseball teams and justifies them using a select group of selfserving statistics. His teams are incapable of winning consistently in short serieses against good teams because his offensive model only succeeds in a flat world where there are completely controlled variables that can be manipulated on a spreadsheet.

They are much less competitive now than they were 5 years ago when they won 100 games two years in a row. Ya know why that is? Because there are fewer steroid users in the game (want to discuss how many of them there are who have been Athletics since 2000?) and because the draft picks that Beane has gotten from losing top talent/drug users have mostly slipped on their own and because the players who were there before Beane implemented his ass backwards vision are now mostly gone too.

It's not "He uses stats. Ha Ha." It's he's a self-promoting piece of crap who mistreats anyone who doesn't kiss his ass. I wish KW would have had him and Lewis in a dark alley after the way Beane treated Kenny in Moneyball.

Jerome
10-24-2006, 01:01 PM
I understand the reasons for letting Macha go but all this ripping on him once he's gone is not classy at all.

RKMeibalane
10-24-2006, 01:22 PM
I understand the reasons for letting Macha go but all this ripping on him once he's gone is not classy at all.

The reason you're seeing that is because none of the players want to give Beane an excuse to get rid of them. They're not stupid: every player on that team knows what an ass Beane is. Frank Thomas said just last week that he "doesn't trust anybody in the game now" because of how his tenure with the Sox ended, and I'm sure he's keeping an eye on what Beane is up to as he mulls his options for '07.

Baseball players are smarter than most people give them credit for. They can understand that it's not wise to piss off the boss, especially coming off such a poor performance in the Detroit series. I don't believe for one minute that the A's players hated Macha. I do believe they're alligning themselves with Beane to save their jobs.

thegooch
10-24-2006, 04:01 PM
Solution:

Frank Thomas - Player/Manager.

I LOVE it! Thomas is almost as stat-driven as Beane. They are a match made in heaven.

Iwritecode
10-25-2006, 10:44 AM
Jerry Manuel will make an excellent manager for the Oakland A's..........

Speaking of Jerry Manuel, was anyone else suprised at the name of the poster that started this thread?

Jerry, where have you been? Only 5 posts in the past year? I remember when you averaged 10 times that in one day...

:smile:

maurice
10-25-2006, 04:00 PM
BB treats his managers like crap and uses them as scapegoats for his personal shortcomings. You don't have to take our word for it. Even his hagiography (Moneyball) proves the point. Lewis talks about BB losing his mind and bitching about his manager for making routine bullpen moves, though BB later concedes that the bullpen he assembled blows. The book also shows how he interferes with player-manager interactions by directly imposing orders on players (don't steal bases, take more pitches, etc.). I kept waiting for BB to go down to the clubhouse and flip over a buffet table.
:redneck