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tlebar318
10-16-2006, 04:17 PM
CBS Sportsline is reporting this as "breaking news"-
I guess it was his fault that the A's did not hit in the ALCS!:cool:

I want Mags back
10-16-2006, 04:18 PM
ouch, HE GONE

nasox
10-16-2006, 04:20 PM
Who is going to take his place?

FedEx227
10-16-2006, 04:21 PM
Oh Billy Beane... I like Billy Beane but Macha is not your problem, firing him won't change the fact that you need to have some amount of small-ball, hit-n-run type offense come playoff time. And for anybody that thinks thats Machas duties I suggest you read Moneyball and find out the A's Manager is nothing but a puppet and a hand to fill out the lineup card.

Baby Fisk
10-16-2006, 04:23 PM
Yep, it was all Macha's fault. Nothing to see here.

Jerome
10-16-2006, 04:23 PM
maybe the new manager can bring with him some hitters that don't leave so many runners on base

CLR01
10-16-2006, 04:23 PM
Who is going to take his place?


Probably Dusty. Between Beane's awesomeness and Dusty's magic toothpick they will be a lock to win the world series.

PKalltheway
10-16-2006, 04:23 PM
Even though it wasn't his fault that the A's didn't go to the World Series, you gotta blame someone, I guess.

palehozenychicty
10-16-2006, 04:24 PM
Probably Dusty. Between Beane's awesomeness and Dusty's magic toothpick they will be a lock to win the world series.

I would not doubt this move, and Barroid will follow once Thomas decides to hit the open market.

DaleJRFan
10-16-2006, 04:25 PM
Evidentially, there were some communication issues with Macha and the reserve players as well as how he handled the injured players...

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2628358

Daver
10-16-2006, 04:25 PM
Macha is the fall guy for Beanes's misguided approach for building a baseball team. I wonder if anyone in A's ownership will ever figure out that Billy is the problem.

palehozenychicty
10-16-2006, 04:26 PM
Macha is the fall guy for Beanes's misguided approach for building a baseball team. I wonder if anyone in A's ownership will ever figure out that Billy is the problem.


:fobbgod:

Never! Nevaaah!!

RKMeibalane
10-16-2006, 04:29 PM
Probably Dusty. Between Beane's awesomeness and Dusty's magic toothpick they will be a lock to win the world series.

:hurt

"Sonofa..."

RKMeibalane
10-16-2006, 04:34 PM
In all seriousness, Macha was not the problem for the A's. Aside from Thomas and Swisher, they had no one else in the lineup who could hit. Eric Chavez is normally a good hitter, but he had a down year because of injuries. Milton Bradley was injured most of the season, as was Bobby Crosby. The A's were counting on production from all five of those guys, and only got it from two of them. The rest of the team just sucks.

I wonder if Beane will re-hire Macha like he did last winter. I still can't believe Ken came back after that. Beane is such a snake in the grass. I hope Frank is paying close attention to this situation, so that he doesn't get suckered into singing a bad contract. We know what happened the last time he did that.

Myrtle72
10-16-2006, 04:37 PM
Wow, that's classy. Of course, when the team fails, you gotta blame someone. It doesn't seem like Macha had much to work with, though.

CLR01
10-16-2006, 04:37 PM
In all seriousness, Macha was not the problem for the A's. Aside from Thomas and Swisher, they had no one else in the lineup who could hit. Eric Chavez is normally a good hitter, but he had a down year because of injuries. Milton Bradley was injured most of the season, as was Bobby Crosby. The A's were counting on production from all five of those guys, and only got it from two of them. The rest of the team just sucks.

I wonder if Beane will re-hire Macha like he did last winter. I still can't believe Ken came back after that. Beane is such a snake in the grass. I hope Frank is paying close attention to this situation, so that he doesn't get suckered into singing a bad contract. We know what happened the last time he did that.


Swisher can hit? :?:

SoxSpeed22
10-16-2006, 04:40 PM
Just don't forget that he was fired last year, then brought back.
But if Billy Beane is as much of a super-genius as advertised, they'll bring in someone random.

RKMeibalane
10-16-2006, 04:44 PM
Swisher can hit? :?:

He can hit for power and drive in runs. He also walks frequently. I've had the chance to watch him more often than most, and he's better than he showed in the Tigers series.

Ol' No. 2
10-16-2006, 04:50 PM
In all seriousness, Macha was not the problem for the A's. Aside from Thomas and Swisher, they had no one else in the lineup who could hit. Eric Chavez is normally a good hitter, but he had a down year because of injuries. Milton Bradley was injured most of the season, as was Bobby Crosby. The A's were counting on production from all five of those guys, and only got it from two of them. The rest of the team just sucks.But boy, oh, boy, look at those OBP, VORP and isoFOOZIX numbers!

FedEx227
10-16-2006, 04:51 PM
He can hit for power and drive in runs. He also walks frequently. I've had the chance to watch him more often than most, and he's better than he showed in the Tigers series.

Swisher is a very good player, he can hit. The Tigers series should not in any way represent the Oakland team as a whole because a good majority of them CAN hit, but come playoff time its about more than station to station singles, doubles and homeruns.

You can call me a FOBB because I do believe some of the stuff he is preaching is indeed important to baseball, but he becomes too consumed with his ideals that it hurts his team in the long run. The fact that he doesn't believe stolen bases are worth the risk is no doubt just bull-headed and stupid. Come playoff time you have to take risks and you have to go outside of your normal realm to pull off a win. No manager yet has had the balls to stand up to Beane and go against his wishes and probably never will as long as Billy continues the revolving door.

Baby Fisk
10-16-2006, 04:54 PM
But boy, oh, boy, look at those OBP, VORP and isoFOOZIX numbers!
On paper, the A's are indestructible.

ma-gaga
10-16-2006, 04:55 PM
Macha is the fall guy for Beanes's misguided approach for building a baseball team. I wonder if anyone in A's ownership will ever figure out that Billy is the problem.

What misguided approach?? Pitching, defense, OBP, and SLG??! He should change his team to be more like Detroit, and more of a hacktastic approach?? He should bunt more often? More steals?? What's the missing piece? Play more like Anaheim and finish 5+ games out?? Play like Texas and finish 15+ games out of first place every year, for the last 7 years.

I don't understand this level of derision. The A's have made the playoffs 5 times in 7 years. You add in the amount of player turnover, and payroll restrictions that this team has, and it seems really silly to mock Beane's abilities of running a major league franchise.

Regardless, this doesn't really strike me as news in any meaningful way. Wasn't Macha fired last year, then re-signed a week later?

:gulp:

FedEx227
10-16-2006, 04:58 PM
What misguided approach?? Pitching, defense, OBP, and SLG??! He should change his team to be more like Detroit, and more of a hacktastic approach?? He should bunt more often? More steals?? What's the missing piece? Play more like Anaheim and finish 5+ games out?? Play like Texas and finish 15+ games out of first place every year, for the last 7 years.

I don't understand this level of derision. The A's have made the playoffs 5 times in 7 years. You add in the amount of player turnover, and payroll restrictions that this team has, and it seems really silly to mock Beane's abilities of running a major league franchise.

The haters of Billy Beane do become quite annoying as they don't present any real arguments. It's hard to mess with the regular season success the As have had under his regime. Like I stated though sometimes he needs to put less restrictions on the players and allow them to play a bit more freely bunting more, moving runs over at least come playoff time. At the moment his team is too one-dimensional and he relies on the same few ideals time and time again and when those fail (this postseason) it blows up in their face.

soxinem1
10-16-2006, 05:01 PM
maybe the new manager can bring with him some hitters that don't leave so many runners on base

Right. I guess it was Ken's problem that Beane gave him a bunch of DP-hitting into basecloggers, as he has since he has been GM of the team.

It was also his fault that D'Angelo Jmenez and Scutaro were his keystone combo for the playoffs too. Even though Marco had a good ALDS against MIN, Crosby and Ellis would have been better.

Hello, Dusty, your old team is calling you!!!

Ol' No. 2
10-16-2006, 05:04 PM
What misguided approach?? Pitching, defense, OBP, and SLG??! He should change his team to be more like Detroit, and more of a hacktastic approach?? He should bunt more often? More steals?? What's the missing piece? Play more like Anaheim and finish 5+ games out?? Play like Texas and finish 15+ games out of first place every year, for the last 7 years.

I don't understand this level of derision. The A's have made the playoffs 5 times in 7 years. You add in the amount of player turnover, and payroll restrictions that this team has, and it seems really silly to mock Beane's abilities of running a major league franchise.

Regardless, this doesn't really strike me as news in any meaningful way. Wasn't Macha fired last year, then re-signed a week later?

:gulp:It's become increasingly obvious that the secret to Moneyball is nothing more than "get a Zito, Mulder and Hudson when they're cheap". Oakland's success is nothing more than that.

MUsoxfan
10-16-2006, 05:04 PM
I didn't realize that the A's have such an ego that they're in the position to fire a manager that miraculously turns crap into an ALCS team.

Good luck in the future Beane

TheKittle
10-16-2006, 05:04 PM
The haters of Billy Beane do become quite annoying as they don't present any real arguments. It's hard to mess with the regular season success the As have had under his regime. Like I stated though sometimes he needs to put less restrictions on the players and allow them to play a bit more freely bunting more, moving runs over at least come playoff time. At the moment his team is too one-dimensional and he relies on the same few ideals time and time again and when those fail (this postseason) it blows up in their face.


The point isn't winning divisions and then choking, until this year in the playoffs. It's about winning in the postseason. The A's haven't done it. And you could make a case that they play in a two team division, at least the past 3-4 years. Seattle blew it's wad in 2001 and the Rangers in the late 90's. It's been the Angels and A's the past few years.

SABRSox
10-16-2006, 05:04 PM
Unfortunately for the A's, they are becoming baseball's answer to the Buffalo Bills of the early 1990's.

RKMeibalane
10-16-2006, 05:07 PM
Unfortunately for the A's, they are becoming baseball's answer to the Buffalo Bills of the early 1990's.

The Braves still hold that title, in my mind. They should have been able to win more than one championship with all of the WS appearances they made.

Mohoney
10-16-2006, 05:10 PM
I guess it's just easier to fire Macha than admit that clutch performances actually exist.

Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain.

LuvSox
10-16-2006, 05:20 PM
:jerry


I have done one heck of a job on the bench in Shea!

Hint hint, wink wink.

spiffie
10-16-2006, 05:22 PM
Oh Billy Beane... I like Billy Beane but Macha is not your problem, firing him won't change the fact that you need to have some amount of small-ball, hit-n-run type offense come playoff time. And for anybody that thinks thats Machas duties I suggest you read Moneyball and find out the A's Manager is nothing but a puppet and a hand to fill out the lineup card.
Detroit's scoring by game:

Game 1:
Solo Home run
Run Scoring Single
Solo Home Run
Run Scoring double
Run Scoring single

Game 2:
Run Scoring Sacrifice Fly
Run Scoring single
2 run scoring single
Run Scoring Sacrifice Fly
2 run Home Run
Solo Home Run

Game 3:
Run scoring single
Run scoring Fielder's Choice
Solo Home run

Game 4:
Run scoring double
Run scoring double
solo home run
3 run homer

Final Series Numbers:
Detroit: 2 Sacrifice Bunts, 1 Sacrifice Fly, 2 Stolen Bases, 7 Home Runs

The Small Ball is overwhelming.

Mohoney
10-16-2006, 05:27 PM
But look at all those run-scoring base hits and doubles.

It's not homer-happy, it's not small-ball, in the playoffs, it's all about CLUTCH.

That's what we were last year. That's what the Tigers have been this year.

Ol' No. 2
10-16-2006, 05:29 PM
Detroit's scoring by game:

Game 1:
Solo Home run
Run Scoring Single
Solo Home Run
Run Scoring double
Run Scoring single

Game 2:
Run Scoring Sacrifice Fly
Run Scoring single
2 run scoring single
Run Scoring Sacrifice Fly
2 run Home Run
Solo Home Run

Game 3:
Run scoring single
Run scoring Fielder's Choice
Solo Home run

Game 4:
Run scoring double
Run scoring double
solo home run
3 run homer

Final Series Numbers:
Detroit: 2 Sacrifice Bunts, 1 Sacrifice Fly, 2 Stolen Bases, 7 Home Runs

The Small Ball is overwhelming.I don't think anyone ever said the Tigers were a small ball team. They won because they out-pitched the A's by a mile.

The only thing Beane ever did for that team was to get Zito, Mulder and Hudson. They're the only reason the A's won anything. All the Moneyball stuff is a bunch of hooey. Anchor your rotation with those three and you could probably assemble the rest of the team at random and get about the same result.

Daver
10-16-2006, 05:30 PM
What misguided approach?? Pitching, defense, OBP, and SLG??! He should change his team to be more like Detroit, and more of a hacktastic approach?? He should bunt more often? More steals?? What's the missing piece? Play more like Anaheim and finish 5+ games out?? Play like Texas and finish 15+ games out of first place every year, for the last 7 years.

I don't understand this level of derision. The A's have made the playoffs 5 times in 7 years. You add in the amount of player turnover, and payroll restrictions that this team has, and it seems really silly to mock Beane's abilities of running a major league franchise.


How about building a team that combines pitching and hitting with playing fundemental team baseball, and developing players that put team before stats?

Of course, in order to do that you actually have to have scouts that can do more than look at numbers, and that can recoginize which players are guys that want to win as opposed to guys that want to put up numbers.

The steal, the bunt, and the hit and run and fundemental parts of the game, designed more to alter the pitcher and the defense than to help the offense, yet Oakland refuses to use any of them, because they have no grasp of playing team baseball.

If that isn't misguided, you tell me why.

StillMissOzzie
10-16-2006, 05:31 PM
Macha is the fall guy for Beanes's misguided approach for building a baseball team. I wonder if anyone in A's ownership will ever figure out that Billy is the problem.

IIRC, Billy Beane IS a partial owner of the A's now. I think he got something like 2% - 3% with his last contract.

SMO
:gulp:

The Dude
10-16-2006, 05:54 PM
:rolling:

Yeah take a team built like the A's to the ALCS and then fire the manager. Makes perfect sense!:rolleyes:

Actually it makes about as much as sense as the Marlins firing Girardi.

"Not to fault either side, but I felt a disconnect on a lot of levels," general manager Billy Beane said. "Once again, it's not to point the finger at Ken or anything like that. But that disconnect was there and it was something we needed to address as soon as possible."

Beane needs something disconnected from his pompous ass!

Dan the Man
10-16-2006, 06:04 PM
Because it's all Macha's fault that the pitching sucked and Big Frank couldn't have hit a beach ball. It's his fault that no one on the team can steal a base or hit the ball the other way. :bs:

:whatever:
We always hear how Beane is a genius, absolute baseball mastermind, when the A's haven't made the Series in all of his tenure.

Craig Grebeck
10-16-2006, 06:07 PM
I don't think anyone ever said the Tigers were a small ball team. They won because they out-pitched the A's by a mile.

The only thing Beane ever did for that team was to get Zito, Mulder and Hudson. They're the only reason the A's won anything. All the Moneyball stuff is a bunch of hooey. Anchor your rotation with those three and you could probably assemble the rest of the team at random and get about the same result.
But they've been successful without Mulder and Hudson. Beane absolutely fleeced the Cards for Mulder, and got rid of them before their value absolutely plummeted (Mulder the last two seasons, Hudson this season).

The whole idea of moneyball is to find what is undervalued on the market and get it in a cost effective fashion. They constantly have to reinvent themselves because of their short term signings. It's impressive to say the least that they've remained so competitive.

I know you don't like SABR stuff ON2, and I don't want to open that can of worms, but they don't solely rely on OBP and the like anymore. OBP has become valued so much (due in large part to the A's) that they have to look in another direction for cheap alternatives. In the last few years they've done a lot more to bolster their young pitching.

It's not homer-happy, it's not small-ball, in the playoffs, it's all about CLUTCH.
That is a joke. What the hell does the GM have to do with single player performance in the postseason? The general manager is responsible for putting a team together that can compete for the WS, and Beane has gotten them in the playoffs 5/7 years. It's not his fault they tanked in the ALCS any more than it's KW's fault that our pitchers ALL had horrible years.

RKMeibalane
10-16-2006, 06:14 PM
:jerry


I have done one heck of a job on the bench in Shea!

Hint hint, wink wink.

If that happens, I guarantee you Frank moves down the coast to the Angels. There's no way he plays for Manuel again after all the mind-games, tinkering, etc.

MarySwiss
10-16-2006, 06:19 PM
Evidentially, there were some communication issues with Macha and the reserve players as well as how he handled the injured players...

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2628358

I heard someone on ESPN saying that the injured players felt as though they weren't part of the equation.

Could that be because they weren't part of the equation?

Ol' No. 2
10-16-2006, 06:20 PM
But they've been successful without Mulder and Hudson. Beane absolutely fleeced the Cards for Mulder, and got rid of them before their value absolutely plummeted (Mulder the last two seasons, Hudson this season).

The whole idea of moneyball is to find what is undervalued on the market and get it in a cost effective fashion. They constantly have to reinvent themselves because of their short term signings. It's impressive to say the least that they've remained so competitive.

I know you don't like SABR stuff ON2, and I don't want to open that can of worms, but they don't solely rely on OBP and the like anymore. OBP has become valued so much (due in large part to the A's) that they have to look in another direction for cheap alternatives. In the last few years they've done a lot more to bolster their young pitching.


That is a joke. What the hell does the GM have to do with single player performance in the postseason? The general manager is responsible for putting a team together that can compete for the WS, and Beane has gotten them in the playoffs 5/7 years. It's not his fault they tanked in the ALCS any more than it's KW's fault that our pitchers ALL had horrible years.How have they been successful since Mulder and Hudson left? Last year they missed the playoffs altogether and this year they just managed to sneak in, with the fewest wins of any AL playoff team while playing in the weakest division. They advanced only because the Twins (not as good a team as advertised, IMO) wet their pants, and then got their asses handed to them by a real team.

That sure as hell doesn't meet my definition of success.

RKMeibalane
10-16-2006, 06:20 PM
I heard someone on ESPN saying that the injured players felt as though they weren't part of the equation.

Could that be because they weren't part of the equation?

Indeed. And if they were injured, why should they be part of the equation in the first place?

jabrch
10-16-2006, 08:06 PM
Macha is the fall guy for Beanes's misguided approach for building a baseball team. I wonder if anyone in A's ownership will ever figure out that Billy is the problem.

I couldn't have said it any better than that!

HotelWhiteSox
10-16-2006, 08:09 PM
I have a feeling the A's might go to the route of the Marlins. I'm no Beane fan, but I do give him some credit, he does okay for what he has to work with ($)

jabrch
10-16-2006, 08:09 PM
What misguided approach?? Pitching, defense, OBP, and SLG??! He should change his team to be more like Detroit, and more of a hacktastic approach?? He should bunt more often? More steals?? What's the missing piece? Play more like Anaheim and finish 5+ games out?? Play like Texas and finish 15+ games out of first place every year, for the last 7 years.

Nope, play more well rounded baseball. Get guys who actually step up to the plate intending on hitting, not on walking. Swing at good pitches when they come, rather than wait for something center cut.

Play more like a baseball team should, to win, and less like a little league team, hoping the other team makes mistakes and loses it.

jabrch
10-16-2006, 08:10 PM
It's become increasingly obvious that the secret to Moneyball is nothing more than "get a Zito, Mulder and Hudson when they're cheap". Oakland's success is nothing more than that.

That, and loads of anabolic steroids!!!!

jabrch
10-16-2006, 08:11 PM
Unfortunately for the A's, they are becoming baseball's answer to the Buffalo Bills of the early 1990's.

No way - that Bills team was loaded with great football players. This is just a bad baseball team that has an approach that succeeds against back end of rotation pitchers, and good ones when they have off days. Totally poor comparison.

jabrch
10-16-2006, 08:13 PM
Ron Washington will get the job next - another mouthpiece for Beane.

The Immigrant
10-16-2006, 08:46 PM
I hope Frank is paying close attention to this situation, so that he doesn't get suckered into singing a bad contract. We know what happened the last time he did that.

He tried to whine his way out of it?

Craig Grebeck
10-16-2006, 08:58 PM
Nope, play more well rounded baseball. Get guys who actually step up to the plate intending on hitting, not on walking. Swing at good pitches when they come, rather than wait for something center cut.

Play more like a baseball team should, to win, and less like a little league team, hoping the other team makes mistakes and loses it.
They do win, a lot. Since 2000 their worst season was 88 wins. They have failed in the postseason, but their strongest teams (01-03) faltered due to poor pitching.

dickallen15
10-16-2006, 08:58 PM
No way - that Bills team was loaded with great football players. This is just a bad baseball team that has an approach that succeeds against back end of rotation pitchers, and good ones when they have off days. Totally poor comparison.
Actually most teams have a tough time beating good pitching.

soxtalker
10-16-2006, 09:02 PM
Here are the links from the SF Chronicle (http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2006/10/16/SPGD3LQE7N3.DTL&type=as)and SF Examiner (http://www.examiner.com/a-346958~Macha_Fired_As_Oakland_s_Manager.html) . Sounds like this was in the cards for awhile -- conflicts with players and Beane. While a championship might have prevented it, it might not have.

dickallen15
10-16-2006, 09:08 PM
Here are the links from the SF Chronicle (http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2006/10/16/SPGD3LQE7N3.DTL&type=as)and SF Examiner (http://www.examiner.com/a-346958~Macha_Fired_As_Oakland_s_Manager.html) . Sounds like this was in the cards for awhile -- conflicts with players and Beane. While a championship might have prevented it, it might not have.
They talked about this on Comcast earlier this evening. Apparently a lot of the players hated Macha, and managing the A's is basically being the middle man for Beane who supposedly makes out the line-ups himself. The guy mentioned Ron Washington wouldn't take the job if offered and said the most likely candidate is Beane's former high school teammate.

TDog
10-16-2006, 09:22 PM
The fact is, the A's overachieved. The pitching wasn't as good as it has been in the past. The hitting wasn't as good as it has been in the past. I don't know about the defense. Chavez is still a gold glover, whether he fields well or not.

I'm not sorry the A's fired someone who seemed to be a pretty good manager. I won't be if they sign Piniella. Now I hope the A's show no interest in re-signing Frank Thomas so that people around here can stop with the A's-love.

SABRSox
10-16-2006, 09:32 PM
No way - that Bills team was loaded with great football players. This is just a bad baseball team that has an approach that succeeds against back end of rotation pitchers, and good ones when they have off days. Totally poor comparison.

You are in denial if you think the A's have been a bad baseball team with bad players. They've had excellent pitching (Hudson, Mulder, Zito, Harden, Haren) some pretty good hitters (Chavez, Kendall, Tejada, Thomas in a great year, and I'll even throw in a roided up Giambi). The rest of the team has been kinda ugly to look at, but they get the job done.

And as for beating up on back end pitchers and pitchers who have off days... well, that's what a good baseball team does. That's what the White Sox did in 2005.

Oblong
10-16-2006, 09:36 PM
I think the paint by numbers approach doesn't lend itself well to the playoffs because part of success is to learn to adjust to the situation. The A's just tried to do everything as they did all year long.

In game 1 they pitched Detroit as if they were the first pitch hackers they've been all year. Pitching coaches would tell their guys to pitch to the Tigers as if you have an 0-2 count. The Tigers made a conscious decision to work the count and not be so aggressive and the A's admitted after the game they didn't know what to do. Troy Percival, who is still on the 60 man roster, did some advance scouting of Oakland. Leyland credited his work. Detroit when into this series with a game plan taht was different from how they approached the offense all year.

Daver
10-16-2006, 09:51 PM
You are in denial if you think the A's have been a bad baseball team with bad players.

You're in denial, that is a collection of good players, but they are in no way a good team, because they don't know the word team, nor do they have a clue on how to play team baseball.

dickallen15
10-16-2006, 09:57 PM
You're in denial, that is a collection of good players, but they are in no way a good team, because they don't know the word team, nor do they have a clue on how to play team baseball.
But they have Frank Thomas to show them the way.

Craig Grebeck
10-16-2006, 10:05 PM
You're in denial, that is a collection of good players, but they are in no way a good team, because they don't know the word team, nor do they have a clue on how to play team baseball.
What is team baseball? Did they lose because they didn't bunt or hit and run enough? As Spiffie pointed out, the Tigers are playing mashing, base clogging, selfish baseball and they swept the A's.

RKMeibalane
10-16-2006, 10:22 PM
He tried to whine his way out of it?

Exactly, and then a year and half later, the DSC was invoked anyway. :cool:

RKMeibalane
10-16-2006, 10:24 PM
But they have Frank Thomas to show them the way.

I would think by now that you can recognize teal without a problem. :cool:

SouthSide_HitMen
10-16-2006, 10:43 PM
Macha is the fall guy for Beanes's misguided approach for building a baseball team. I wonder if anyone in A's ownership will ever figure out that Billy is the problem.

LrZLaNLMbD0

RKMeibalane
10-16-2006, 11:02 PM
LrZLaNLMbD0

:rolling:

ma-gaga
10-17-2006, 02:08 AM
How about building a team that combines pitching and hitting with playing fundemental team baseball, and developing players that put team before stats?

I watched them destroy the Twins with pitching, defense and timely hitting. It felt like the Twins couldn't breathe. Then Nathan broke Ellis's hand, they ran into Detroit, and their mojo fell apart.

How have they been successful since Mulder and Hudson left? Last year they missed the playoffs altogether and this year they just managed to sneak in, with the fewest wins of any AL playoff team while playing in the weakest division. They advanced only because the Twins (not as good a team as advertised, IMO) wet their pants, and then got their asses handed to them by a real team.

That sure as hell doesn't meet my definition of success.

Since their first playoff run in 2002 the only two players still on the roster is Zito and Chavez. Replacing 23 players was Beane's job and he beat out the big market Angels, Rangers and Mariners.

I just have a hard time calling that franchise a "failure" for reinventing themselves and continuing to win.

I mean, you'll always have the 'ultimate argument' against them, they haven't won a world series with the Beane regime, but I think the two of you are over the top with the rhetoric.

:cool:

Beautox
10-17-2006, 04:41 AM
Actually it makes about as much as sense as the Marlins firing Girardi.


The Marlins firing Giradi was a good if not great thing, Girardi cost them a chance at the WC. Brining Johnson back out after a hour and a half rain delay and having him long toss with D-Train, only to come out and hurt his pitching arm. That coupled with the fact he didn't agree with Beinfest about who should be on the 25 man roster, he wanted both Nolasco and Johnson down on the farm, and he wanted to stick Willingham behind the dish.

Girardi gets far to much credit for the marlins '06 success. Managers in general will win or loose you 4-10 games a season *cough rob mackowiak in cf*. Secondly Loria wanted Girardi to begin with even though Beinfest wanted their current manager Fredi Gonzalez(who understands developing young talent).


Simply put, the alpha and omega to the marlins are Larry Beinfest & Jim Fleming.

Mohoney
10-17-2006, 04:46 AM
That is a joke. What the hell does the GM have to do with single player performance in the postseason? The general manager is responsible for putting a team together that can compete for the WS, and Beane has gotten them in the playoffs 5/7 years. It's not his fault they tanked in the ALCS any more than it's KW's fault that our pitchers ALL had horrible years.

Horsefeathers. Make up your mind. Is it SINGLE player performances, or did the TEAM he put together choke, as evidenced by your comment about them "tanking in the ALCS"?

That team left 29 men on base in 4 games, and that's including the game where Rogers ****ed their couch, and they only left 3 because nobody could get on in the first place.

If you want to tell me that the inability to manufacture runs and get 2 out hits in the clutch didn't kill the A's in this series, then you're nuttier than a 20 pound squirrel turd.

Craig Grebeck
10-17-2006, 07:44 AM
Horsefeathers. Make up your mind. Is it SINGLE player performances, or did the TEAM he put together choke, as evidenced by your comment about them "tanking in the ALCS"?

That team left 29 men on base in 4 games, and that's including the game where Rogers ****ed their couch, and they only left 3 because nobody could get on in the first place.

If you want to tell me that the inability to manufacture runs and get 2 out hits in the clutch didn't kill the A's in this series, then you're nuttier than a 20 pound squirrel turd.
It is single player performances in incredibly small sample sizes. Over 162 games, they were a very good team. They had a tough series, and their inability to be "clutch" has nothing to do with their philosophy on baseball.

Flight #24
10-17-2006, 08:19 AM
It is single player performances in incredibly small sample sizes. Over 162 games, they were a very good team. They had a tough series, and their inability to be "clutch" has nothing to do with their philosophy on baseball.

Every year it's the same thing: "Small sample size", "success int he postseason is luck", etc. But looking at the same type of results 5 out of 7 years is wearing out the sample size argument.

The A's are not built to win close games. Those require offensive execution. Which doesn't just mean bunting, it's hitting to the right side, taking the extra base, etc.

That's why the routinely lose in the playoffs. It's similar in a way to the Yankees, who are also built to win in the regular season, but not in the playoffs. When the quality of play goes up and runs are scarce, it's not all about having the ability to manufacture a run. And even just that ability makes the D play differently and helps you be able to win without actually bunting, etc.

Norberto7
10-17-2006, 10:04 AM
How about building a team that combines pitching and hitting with playing fundemental team baseball, and developing players that put team before stats?

Of course, in order to do that you actually have to have scouts that can do more than look at numbers, and that can recoginize which players are guys that want to win as opposed to guys that want to put up numbers.

The steal, the bunt, and the hit and run and fundemental parts of the game, designed more to alter the pitcher and the defense than to help the offense, yet Oakland refuses to use any of them, because they have no grasp of playing team baseball.

If that isn't misguided, you tell me why.

If this truly is the answer, then why does the team that best fits the one you describe parallel the A's so closely in results? Regular season success, postseason abomination...

I speak of the Minnesota Twins, of course.

Ol' No. 2
10-17-2006, 11:04 AM
I watched them destroy the Twins with pitching, defense and timely hitting. It felt like the Twins couldn't breathe. Then Nathan broke Ellis's hand, they ran into Detroit, and their mojo fell apart.



Since their first playoff run in 2002 the only two players still on the roster is Zito and Chavez. Replacing 23 players was Beane's job and he beat out the big market Angels, Rangers and Mariners.

I just have a hard time calling that franchise a "failure" for reinventing themselves and continuing to win.

I mean, you'll always have the 'ultimate argument' against them, they haven't won a world series with the Beane regime, but I think the two of you are over the top with the rhetoric.

:cool:Not only have they not won a World Series, until this year they haven't even won ONE post-season series. Without the big three in their rotation, they're a slightly above average team.

ode to veeck
10-17-2006, 12:56 PM
Macha is the fall guy for Beanes's misguided approach for building a baseball team. I wonder if anyone in A's ownership will ever figure out that Billy is the problem.

I thought Macha actually did a great job. They steamrolled the hottest team in baseball in the 1st round of the playoffs, and after Macha got them there with smoke and mirrors (on top of what BB gave them). Unfortunately, the A's ran into the Tigers in the ALCS, who are gonna crush the winner of the Cards/Mets series. Beane's an idiot more than ever ... who'da thunk it?!

ma-gaga
10-17-2006, 03:38 PM
Not only have they not won a World Series, until this year they haven't even won ONE post-season series. Without the big three in their rotation, they're a slightly above average team.

So the definition of a good season, or a successful season is "winning the ring". Nothing else will do?

I'm going to stop advancing this argument, because I'm approaching FOBB status (propellerhead, yes. FOBB, no.). I'm just in the camp that you can have a successful season even if you finish out of the playoffs.

:gulp:

Ol' No. 2
10-17-2006, 03:59 PM
So the definition of a good season, or a successful season is "winning the ring". Nothing else will do?

I'm going to stop advancing this argument, because I'm approaching FOBB status (propellerhead, yes. FOBB, no.). I'm just in the camp that you can have a successful season even if you finish out of the playoffs.

:gulp:I wouldn't go so far as to say anything other than winning the World Series is a failure...but I don't see how you can call it a successful season if you don't even make the playoffs.

jabrch
10-17-2006, 09:18 PM
You are in denial if you think the A's have been a bad baseball team with bad players. They've had excellent pitching (Hudson, Mulder, Zito, Harden, Haren) some pretty good hitters (Chavez, Kendall, Tejada, Thomas in a great year, and I'll even throw in a roided up Giambi). The rest of the team has been kinda ugly to look at, but they get the job done.

And as for beating up on back end pitchers and pitchers who have off days... well, that's what a good baseball team does. That's what the White Sox did in 2005.

Those teams have been LOADED with bad baseball players. They have had a few good ones (mostly using steroids) but most of the guys they have trotted out have been awful. And as far as TEAM goes, there hasn't been a single well rounded TEAM yet come from Oakland since the 1970s or maybe the early 80s. That's a pisspoor organizational model that has roided its way into lots of high draft picks. Once the trickle down of those guys is gone, if Beane sticks with his current model, that team is going to really suck again.

FarWestChicago
10-17-2006, 09:30 PM
Beane had to fire Macha. Macha is a class guy. He doesn't fit in with the organization at all. You need to be 100% ******* 100% of the time to belong on the A's.

RKMeibalane
10-17-2006, 09:33 PM
Beane had to fire Macha. Macha is a class guy. He doesn't fit in with the organization at all. You need to be 100% ******* 100% of the time to belong on the A's.

Something jeremyb1 knows well.

Jerome
10-18-2006, 01:22 AM
Right. I guess it was Ken's problem that Beane gave him a bunch of DP-hitting into basecloggers, as he has since he has been GM of the team.

It was also his fault that D'Angelo Jmenez and Scutaro were his keystone combo for the playoffs too. Even though Marco had a good ALDS against MIN, Crosby and Ellis would have been better.

Hello, Dusty, your old team is calling you!!!

Are you insulting me or agreeing with me? It's plain to see that the A's totally sucked it up with men on base against Detroit, that's all I was saying, and that Macha can't get up there and hit for those guys. And yes Crosby and Ellis would have been a big boost, but injuries happen. (Ask the Twins about losing the ROY this year)

ode to veeck
10-18-2006, 10:27 AM
Beane had to fire Macha. Macha is a class guy. He doesn't fit in with the organization at all. You need to be 100% ******* 100% of the time to belong on the A's.

Exactly, and BB shows the world once again he's a complete idiot.

Moses_Scurry
10-18-2006, 04:04 PM
The "playoffs are a crapshoot" argument shows to be complete BS a little more each year that the A's don't advance in the playoffs. How many more times must this happen before the sample size is big enough. I would say that 5 post-seasons with one series win is a good enough sample to say that the system just doesn't work in the post-season, but it's not because the "playoffs are a crapshoot".

Baby Fisk
10-18-2006, 04:51 PM
So the definition of a good season, or a successful season is "winning the ring". Nothing else will do?

I'm going to stop advancing this argument, because I'm approaching FOBB status (propellerhead, yes. FOBB, no.). I'm just in the camp that you can have a successful season even if you finish out of the playoffs.


If you ain't first, you're last.

TDog
10-18-2006, 06:12 PM
If you ain't first, you're last.

So the Twins and Cubs were equally successful, their fans having been equally treated to success this season?

There are 30 MLB teams. Including the team that will win the 2006 World Series, there will be seven different champions in seven years. Spending money to win the World Series doesn't seem to work anymore. Signing players based on their past success doesn't seem to work anymore. Moneyball hasn't developed into a winning formula A World Series championship is successful, but it it is more than that. It is magical, now more than any time in the history of the game.

If it were only about winning the World Series, I wouldn't have followed the White Sox since the late 1960s.

Craig Grebeck
10-18-2006, 11:22 PM
"There were things that transpired over the course of the year that the players were unhappy about,'' A's center fielder Mark Kotsay said (http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2006/10/17/AS.TMP&type=as). "I felt like he didn't protect me,'' Zito said. "I know a lot of managers do -- (White Sox first baseman) Paul Konerko told me that Ozzie Guillen would take a bullet for his players. I was upset but Macha was fighting his own battle and he probably couldn't process that kind of pressure, so, OK, I'll wear it.''
"I know that the one thing any player wants from his manager is to be protected,'' catcher Jason Kendall said. "If there's a bang-bang play at first, even if you're out, if you're arguing you want someone there behind you. If you argue a pitch, even if you're wrong, you want someone joining in. And I'm not sure Macha did that.'' "When I got injured, I felt disrespected,'' Kotsay said. "The 'puzzling' comment really threw me. My manager didn't have my back, and every manager's first business is to protect his players. That totally lost my trust in that relationship, between us as player and manager.''
"The atmosphere wasn't positive, for some reason,'' Chavez said. "That was hard for us to deal with -- here we are, winning the division, we're banged up but we're still doing what we should be doing, and every time he spoke to us, he'd say how much appreciated the effort, but then you'd read things where he was always smashing people. ... This negative cloud was just eating at everybody.''
Wow, Beane is such an egomaniac. This Macha guy sounds like a real class act, someone the players can rally behind and appreciate.

FarWestChicago
10-20-2006, 11:29 PM
Wow, Beane is such an egomaniac. This Macha guy sounds like a real class act, someone the players can rally behind and appreciate.You are an amazing dumbass. You can't recognize players who know who butters their bread? If they don't suck Beane ass they are gone. My god you are totally clueless. In fact, you have just insulted the word clueless.

:fobbgod:

I hang my token managers out to dry. The players know who the boss is. And the complete moron minions of mine fall for the whole thing! I laugh in all their faces!!!!

Craig Grebeck
10-21-2006, 12:17 AM
So, what do you base your opinion that Macha is a class guy off of?

And why/how do you know so much about Beane?

FarWestChicago
10-21-2006, 12:50 AM
So, what do you base your opinion that Macha until is a class guy off of?

And why/how do you know so much about Beane?I lived there from 1981 until 2006. Next question.

jabrch
10-21-2006, 12:51 AM
Are you insulting me or agreeing with me? It's plain to see that the A's totally sucked it up with men on base against Detroit, that's all I was saying, and that Macha can't get up there and hit for those guys. And yes Crosby and Ellis would have been a big boost, but injuries happen. (Ask the Twins about losing the ROY this year)


No - it's not that they sucked against Detroit. They sucked all season. The had the 6th worst batting average in MLB. They had the third worst avg with men in scoring position. They had the fourth worst slg in MLB. With men in scoring position, they had the 5th worst slg @ .391. (Compare to the Sox at .504)

They have a crappy offense. They had bad hitters across the lineup. The only guys who could hit for even a decent average had no power. The guys who had power were all or nothing.

This offensive gameplan has been proven time and time again to be unsuccessful against good pitching. Feast on KCs 5th starter all you want. But Oakland, until they change their strategy, will never succeed enough in the post season to win it all.

FarWestChicago
10-21-2006, 12:56 AM
No - it's not that they sucked against Detroit. They sucked all season. The had the 6th worst batting average in MLB. They had the third worst avg with men in scoring position. They had the fourth worst slg in MLB. With men in scoring position, they had the 5th worst slg @ .391. (Compare to the Sox at .504)

They have a crappy offense. They had bad hitters across the lineup. The only guys who could hit for even a decent average had no power. The guys who had power were all or nothing.

This offensive gameplan has been proven time and time again to be unsuccessful against good pitching. Feast on KCs 5th starter all you want. But Oakland, until they change their strategy, will never succeed enough in the post season to win it all.:rolling:

Nice burn!

:roflmao:

Fenway
10-21-2006, 06:10 PM
Macha just got fired from ANOTHER job

Major league baseball has announced that Sox skipper Terry Francona will manage the Major League All-Stars in the "All-Star Series 2006" in Japan on Nov. 3-8.

Francona will replace former Oakland A's manager Ken Macha, who was recently fired by the A's.

http://www.boston.com/sports/baseball/redsox/extras/extra_bases/2006/10/franona_will_ma.html