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joegraz
10-14-2006, 05:07 AM
I've seen this movie before.

Steelrod
10-14-2006, 08:06 AM
I've seen this movie before.
It started right after he said they were far apart on money, and that free agency was an option.

Frankfan4life
10-14-2006, 11:44 AM
I feel bad for Frank but I'm not unhappy that the A's are on the ropes. I thought that Frank showing up for the ALDS meant that he finally got that playoff monkey from 2000 off his back. Unfortunately, it seems that his playoff struggles have surfaced again. I guess we'll have to see which Frank shows up today.

thegooch
10-14-2006, 11:58 AM
Wait...i think frank just popped up again. Wait...I think he is complaing about being underpaid again. The cancer rears his ugly head again. Good riddance.

robertks61
10-14-2006, 12:01 PM
Had KW resigned him this is probably what we would have seen most of the season. I do wish him well and hopefully the A's make it a longer playoff series than it may be.

Flight #24
10-14-2006, 12:05 PM
Wait...i think frank just popped up again. Wait...I think he is complaing about being underpaid again. The cancer rears his ugly head again. Good riddance.

Bull****. Show me a Frank complaint about being underpaid. All he's said is that the offer isn't where he'd like it to be. I suppose you think he should take whatever they offer and say "thank you for even offering me a contract"? As for being a "cancer", I'll take the word of pretty much everyone in Oakland that he's not only a model teammate but also a mentor to their young players. Something that was also said by younger teammates in Chicago, but never reported widely. Meanwhile, whereas no teammate said he was a cancer, Kenny Williams claimed it and it was parrotted unsupported across hte local papers.

The Frank-hatred and limbs on which people climb out onto to to try and slam him never ceases to amaze me.

RKMeibalane
10-14-2006, 12:06 PM
Had KW resigned him this is probably what we would have seen most of the season.

And you know this because? Ten at-bats is hardly an accurate means of judging how a player will perform over the course of a full season. I would think baseball fans would understand that by now.

RKMeibalane
10-14-2006, 12:08 PM
Bull****. Show me a Frank complaint about being underpaid. All he's said is that the offer isn't where he'd like it to be. I suppose you think he should take whatever they offer and say "thank you for even offering me a contract"? As for being a "cancer", I'll take the word of pretty much everyone in Oakland that he's not only a model teammate but also a mentor to their young players. Something that was also said by younger teammates in Chicago, but never reported widely. Meanwhile, whereas no teammate said he was a cancer, Kenny Williams claimed it and it was parrotted unsupported across hte local papers.

The Frank-hatred and limbs on which people climb out onto to to try and slam him never ceases to amaze me.

Well said. I've given up on the Frank-haters. Every time one of them says something stupid, my ignore list increases in size, and will continue to do so. I don't have the energy to argue with them anymore, but I applaud you for taking the fight to them. Again, well done! :cool:

thegooch
10-14-2006, 12:14 PM
Bull****. Show me a Frank complaint about being underpaid. All he's said is that the offer isn't where he'd like it to be. I suppose you think he should take whatever they offer and say "thank you for even offering me a contract"? As for being a "cancer", I'll take the word of pretty much everyone in Oakland that he's not only a model teammate but also a mentor to their young players. Something that was also said by younger teammates in Chicago, but never reported widely. Meanwhile, whereas no teammate said he was a cancer, Kenny Williams claimed it and it was parrotted unsupported across hte local papers.

The Frank-hatred and limbs on which people climb out onto to to try and slam him never ceases to amaze me.


Just wait. It's just like TO backers. he's changed his tune now that he's in a new place. Please. He'll hold the organization hostage over money. without a doubt. Also, I have never heard younger teammates saying how much they loved frank as a mentor(in chicago). And I'll take Kenny Williams word over Franks any day of the week. Frank is the greatest hitter in the history of our franchise, but he was also the most self-cenetred and worst for our clubhouse.

Steelrod
10-14-2006, 12:50 PM
Bull****. Show me a Frank complaint about being underpaid. All he's said is that the offer isn't where he'd like it to be. I suppose you think he should take whatever they offer and say "thank you for even offering me a contract"? As for being a "cancer", I'll take the word of pretty much everyone in Oakland that he's not only a model teammate but also a mentor to their young players. Something that was also said by younger teammates in Chicago, but never reported widely. Meanwhile, whereas no teammate said he was a cancer, Kenny Williams claimed it and it was parrotted unsupported across hte local papers.

The Frank-hatred and limbs on which people climb out onto to to try and slam him never ceases to amaze me.
The FACT is that he talked to the press about his contract, not the team. His focus should ONLY be on the ALCS and his team right now, not his contract status!

Frankfan4life
10-14-2006, 12:53 PM
Wait...i think frank just popped up again. Wait...I think he is complaing about being underpaid again. The cancer rears his ugly head again. Good riddance.Wow, I can't believe that you can actually mock the best Sox player in history and a future HOF like that. He got a really undeserved bum rap in this town. Frank is a great ballplayer and he has earned a lot more respect from Sox fans than that.

cheeses_h_rice
10-14-2006, 01:40 PM
Well said. I've given up on the Frank-haters. Every time one of them says something stupid, my ignore list increases in size, and will continue to do so. I don't have the energy to argue with them anymore, but I applaud you for taking the fight to them. Again, well done! :cool:

It's almost as if certain Sox fans become Jay Mariotti when it comes to buying into the myths about Frank Thomas the clubhouse cancer.

:rolleyes:

Palehose13
10-14-2006, 01:47 PM
Just wait. It's just like TO backers. he's changed his tune now that he's in a new place. Please. He'll hold the organization hostage over money. without a doubt. Also, I have never heard younger teammates saying how much they loved frank as a mentor(in chicago). And I'll take Kenny Williams word over Franks any day of the week. Frank is the greatest hitter in the history of our franchise, but he was also the most self-cenetred and worst for our clubhouse.

Just keep listening to reporters...

Fact: Frank never held out for money.
Fact: There have been a few younger teammates that have hailed Frank as a mentor. I know Aaron Rowand was one. I believe Willie Harris may have been another.

I can't believe that you are comparing Frank Thomas to Terrell Owens. :rolleyes:

The FACT is that he talked to the press about his contract, not the team. His focus should ONLY be on the ALCS and his team right now, not his contract status!

IIRC, Frank didn't talk abotut he contract until the A's front office made it known that they had made an offer. I know that Billy Beane is a god and all, but why make a contract offer during the middle of the ****ing playoffs? Don't you think that might divert some of the attention away from the task at hand?

RKMeibalane
10-14-2006, 01:54 PM
IIRC, Frank didn't talk abotut he contract until the A's front office made it known that they had made an offer. I know that Billy Beane is a god and all, but why make a contract offer during the middle of the ****ing playoffs? Don't you think that might divert some of the attention away from the task at hand?

The irony of this situation is that if Frank had declined to make any sort of comment about his status for next season, people would be complaining about him trying to shut the press out again, saying that he needs to be open and honest about his intentions so that A's management knows where he stands.

The stench from all the **** the Frank-haters keep spewing around here is almost too much to bear.

DoItForDanPasqua
10-14-2006, 01:59 PM
Konerko turned down the Sox offer and held out for free agency last year. Was that OK but somehow Frank is whining?

RKMeibalane
10-14-2006, 02:03 PM
Konerko turned down the Sox offer and held out for free agency last year. Was that OK but somehow Frank is whining?

You're making sense. The Frank-haters won't like that.

dickallen15
10-14-2006, 03:55 PM
Konerko turned down the Sox offer and held out for free agency last year. Was that OK but somehow Frank is whining?
Frank bitched and moaned about a contract he signed with the White Sox, even holding a mini holdout at the beginning of the 2001 spring training. He showed up on the MLB mandated reporting date, but skipped a couple of White Sox scheduled workouts all because he wasn't happy with a contract he signed after having a big season. Of course when he went down early in the season that year and didn't play up to his paycheck or when he had a couple of down years before a huge 2000, Frank wasn't exactly figuring out ways to give money back. His 2001 whining was so bad HE WAS FIRED BY HIS AGENTS, something you rarely see. One of his agents was an ex-teammate, Scott Sanderson. While many make him out to be the world's greatest teammmate, and others make him out to be the world's worst, I'd be willing to bet he's somewhere in betweeen. I don't hate Frank, he's a HoFamer in my mind. But if you don't think money is going to be an issue with him, or if he has to settle for something not that large, and you don't think he'll whine about it after a nice comeback, I have White Sox WS tickets to sell you.

RKMeibalane
10-14-2006, 04:13 PM
Of course when he went down early in the season that year and didn't play up to his paycheck or when he had a couple of down years before a huge 2000, Frank wasn't exactly figuring out ways to give money back.

Reinsdorf always had the option of invoking the DSC if he was dissatisfied with Frank's performance, which he finally did in '02.

hose
10-14-2006, 04:16 PM
It pains me to see Hurt with a ofer in the ALCS.

On one hand I want Frank to have a awesome series but on the other I want the air horn blowing F.O.B.B.'s team to go down in flames.

Hitmen77
10-14-2006, 05:42 PM
It pains me to see Hurt with a ofer in the ALCS.

On one hand I want Frank to have a awesome series but on the other I want the air horn blowing F.O.B.B.'s team to go down in flames.

I agree. I hate to see Big Frank go O-fer, but if this keeps up, I'll be relieved not to have to hear all the FOBBs scream "I told you so".

jabrch
10-14-2006, 05:43 PM
I feel bad for the big fella. He's not the hitter he once was. He had all the power we were used to seeing (maybe even more) but just didn't hit like the Frank we loved. It didn't help him any that he had very little support around him in the order. But teams pound him inside so much now (and don't care if he walks) that he hardly has a chance.

That lineup is TERRIBLE.

(D'Angelo Jimenez is on their post season roster - nuff said)

Frankfan4life
10-14-2006, 11:11 PM
I didn't see the game but I was hoping that Frank would do well. I was shocked that he didn't get a hit in the ALCS. Frank has nothing to be ashamed of though. He helpd the A's win the division and, most importantly, he almost single-handedly drowned the "piranhas."

Myrtle72
10-14-2006, 11:27 PM
Well... so much for all of Billy Beane's "calculations" and "statistics" from "Harvard scholars."

goon
10-14-2006, 11:56 PM
Well said. I've given up on the Frank-haters. Every time one of them says something stupid, my ignore list increases in size, and will continue to do so. I don't have the energy to argue with them anymore, but I applaud you for taking the fight to them. Again, well done! :cool:

more like, anytime anyone says something bad about frank thomas you throw a fit and just completely avoid anything "negative" or different then your views because it hurts your feelings. like when you had to post that you were blocking me because i thought frank thomas looked like he could barely walk.:rolleyes: i mean don't make a big deal out of it or anything.

i think there are more people on this board who are simply indifferent about frank thomas, rather than what they are referred to as "frank haters." i doubt there are a ton of sox fans who "hate" frank, but he can make it difficult to root for him with some of the things that spewing out of his mouth. if anything i'm surprised at the amount of people who have seemed to take a disliking of jim thome as of recently.

frank is alright in my book, but i could give a **** about what others have to say about him.

jabrch
10-15-2006, 08:14 AM
I think we have a ton of fans who started watching Frank after 2000 and don't know the Frank that RKM, Voo, etc. really do love. I understand why they do. I'm not so sentimental with him for a number of reasons, but this is/was one of the 2 or 3 best hitters in the game for a full decade.

dickallen15
10-15-2006, 08:19 AM
Reinsdorf always had the option of invoking the DSC if he was dissatisfied with Frank's performance, which he finally did in '02.
It was never involked. It was torn up and Frank signed a new contract so he would get more money upfront. He's been a great hitter with no doubt. A definite HoFamer IMO, but the guy has been in 4 postseason series and has an 0fer in 2 of them. The WS won a WS and went 11-1 without him in the playoffs. They were 2-7 with him in the playoffs during years which he won the MVP and should have won the MVP. I know it would be unfair to put that all on him, but he should be given some of the blame, not for 93 which he was good, but 2000 a couple of hits could have made a huge difference in a series where every game was tight.

TornLabrum
10-15-2006, 09:11 AM
It was never involked. It was torn up and Frank signed a new contract so he would get more money upfront. He's been a great hitter with no doubt. A definite HoFamer IMO, but the guy has been in 4 postseason series and has an 0fer in 2 of them. The WS won a WS and went 11-1 without him in the playoffs. They were 2-7 with him in the playoffs during years which he won the MVP and should have won the MVP. I know it would be unfair to put that all on him, but he should be given some of the blame, not for 93 which he was good, but 2000 a couple of hits could have made a huge difference in a series where every game was tight.

It was invoked. At that point Jerry Reinsdorf intervened and negotiated a new contract with Frank. Oh, and if you take a look at those playoff games, it wasn't just Frank who screwed up. You might want to take a look at the pitching (especially in '93) and what the rest of the lineup were doing in those games.

You really love to play fast and loose with facts, and that isn't going to cut it around here. You might also want to check out what some other great players have done in the post-season before you get all over Thomas. There's a thread all about that: http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=80168

dickallen15
10-15-2006, 09:22 AM
It was invoked. At that point Jerry Reinsdorf intervened and negotiated a new contract with Frank. Oh, and if you take a look at those playoff games, it wasn't just Frank who screwed up. You might want to take a look at the pitching (especially in '93) and what the rest of the lineup were doing in those games.

You really love to play fast and loose with facts, and that isn't going to cut it around here. You might also want to check out what some other great players have done in the post-season before you get all over Thomas. There's a thread all about that: http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=80168
As my post said he was good in 1993. Its pretty hard to defend an 0fer like he had in 2000, and every game was tight. Piniella exposed his defense in Game 3 of that series as well. If you want to ban me for my opinions or being "fast and loose with facts" I'll understand, but at least give me an example. His diminished skills clause may have been involked, but he never had to adhere to the least favorable conditions of it, and it was torn up and he was given a lot more money upfront. And if I am correct, he did sign a contract with that clause in it.

RedHeadPaleHoser
10-15-2006, 09:24 AM
I feel bad for Frank; I think he will go down as one of the most misunderstood players in baseball. The greatest compliment, in this day and age, is that you can say the only thing we question about Frank is his mouth....that has gotten him into more trouble, IMO, than anything else.

TornLabrum
10-15-2006, 09:35 AM
As my post said he was good in 1993. Its pretty hard to defend an 0fer like he had in 2000, and every game was tight. Piniella exposed his defense in Game 3 of that series as well. If you want to ban me for my opinions or being "fast and loose with facts" I'll understand, but at least give me an example. His diminished skills clause may have been involked, but he never had to adhere to the least favorable conditions of it. And if I am correct, he did sign a contract with that clause in it.

Okay, how's this for 2000:

Ray Durham 2-10, 3 BB
Paul Konerko 1-9, 1 BB
Carlos Lee 1-11, 0 BB
Magglio Ordonez 2-11, 2 BB
Frank Thomas 0-9, 4 BB

So Thomas at least got on base as much as Ordonez and more than Konerko and Lee combined. The other four players drove in three runs among them to Thomas's none, which happens to be the same number Konerko drove in. Yeah, Thomas failed the team...and so did the rest of those guys. Yet you select Thomas as the goat.

samram
10-15-2006, 09:39 AM
I feel bad for the big fella. He's not the hitter he once was. He had all the power we were used to seeing (maybe even more) but just didn't hit like the Frank we loved. It didn't help him any that he had very little support around him in the order. But teams pound him inside so much now (and don't care if he walks) that he hardly has a chance.

That lineup is TERRIBLE.

(D'Angelo Jimenez is on their post season roster - nuff said)

That lineup is abysmal. Maybe it's a case of a broken calculator.

dickallen15
10-15-2006, 09:45 AM
Okay, how's this for 2000:

Ray Durham 2-10, 3 BB
Paul Konerko 1-9, 1 BB
Carlos Lee 1-11, 0 BB
Magglio Ordonez 2-11, 2 BB
Frank Thomas 0-9, 4 BB

So Thomas at least got on base as much as Ordonez and more than Konerko and Lee combined. The other four players drove in three runs among them to Thomas's none, which happens to be the same number Konerko drove in. Yeah, Thomas failed the team...and so did the rest of those guys. Yet you select Thomas as the goat.
He also left 9 men on base the first 2 games. Game 1 he left 5 or 6 before the 10th inning, including the bases loaded at one point. Game 2 he left a few guys on, but it might not have mattered, and game 3 they bunted at him in the 9th which got them a win. I never even called him THE goat. Ever. I did say he should have been the MVP that season. The MVP needs to show up in the playoffs as well. He was the White Sox best hitter, highest paid player and player with the biggest stature around the game. He's the #3 hitter. He is the guy who is going to take the most heat. BTW, I think your numbers are wrong, I think Paulie was 0fer as well. Also, interesting was Frank made $7.1 million that year. Konerko, Ordonez and Lee made a COMBINED $1.1 million. I'm not the only one who expects guys with the huge contracts to come up huge in big situations.

fquaye149
10-15-2006, 10:20 AM
He also left 9 men on base the first 2 games. Game 1 he left 5 or 6 before the 10th inning, including the bases loaded at one point. Game 2 he left a few guys on, but it might not have mattered, and game 3 they bunted at him in the 9th which got them a win. I never even called him THE goat. Ever. I did say he should have been the MVP that season. The MVP needs to show up in the playoffs as well. He was the White Sox best hitter, highest paid player and player with the biggest stature around the game. He's the #3 hitter. He is the guy who is going to take the most heat. BTW, I think your numbers are wrong, I think Paulie was 0fer as well. Also, interesting was Frank made $7.1 million that year. Konerko, Ordonez and Lee made a COMBINED $1.1 million. I'm not the only one who expects guys with the huge contracts to come up huge in big situations.

13 AB is a small sample size (2000 playoffs)

12 AB is a small sample size (2006 ALCS)

25 AB is a small sample size (derrrr)

A much larger sample size is 64 AB (his entire postseason record)

in which Frank went 11 for 46 (.239 AVG) with 18 walks (.450)OBP

Not exactly abysmal. You expect a little better for Frank, but it's not like he's as awful a baseball player as, say, Ted Williams (.200/.333/.200)

By the way...Frank was .239 with a .450 OBP in the postseason over his career.

Remember a guy named Reggie Jackson? What was his nickname again? And what was his career postseason line? .278 AVG, .353 OBP?

Derek Jeter? Big postseason hero? .314/.384

RKMeibalane
10-15-2006, 11:08 AM
in which Frank went 11 for 46 (.239 AVG) with 18 walks (.450)OBP

Not exactly abysmal. You expect a little better for Frank, but it's not like he's as awful a baseball player as, say, Ted Williams (.200/.333/.200)

By the way...Frank was .239 with a .450 OBP in the postseason over his career.

That Ted Williams guy obviously can't hit. I don't know what Boston was thinking, putting him out there day after day.

ondafarm
10-15-2006, 01:11 PM
It's almost as if certain Sox fans become Jay Mariotti when it comes to buying into the myths about Frank Thomas the clubhouse cancer.

:rolleyes:

Well said sir!!

DumpJerry
10-15-2006, 02:25 PM
IIRC, Frank didn't talk about he contract until the A's front office made it known that they had made an offer. I know that Billy Beane is a god and all, but why make a contract offer during the middle of the ****ing playoffs? Don't you think that might divert some of the attention away from the task at hand?
Best point stated of the thread.

nasox
10-15-2006, 03:07 PM
13 AB is a small sample size (2000 playoffs)

12 AB is a small sample size (2006 ALCS)

25 AB is a small sample size (derrrr)

A much larger sample size is 64 AB (his entire postseason record)

in which Frank went 11 for 46 (.239 AVG) with 18 walks (.450)OBP

Not exactly abysmal. You expect a little better for Frank, but it's not like he's as awful a baseball player as, say, Ted Williams (.200/.333/.200)

By the way...Frank was .239 with a .450 OBP in the postseason over his career.

Remember a guy named Reggie Jackson? What was his nickname again? And what was his career postseason line? .278 AVG, .353 OBP?

Derek Jeter? Big postseason hero? .314/.384

I love Frank, but those 18 walks do not help the team as much as some extra base hits and homers. They help the team, but his lack of power in the postseason (excluding the ALDS this year) should be mentioned.

DaleJRFan
10-15-2006, 03:24 PM
There were 8 other guys in the lineup other than Frank Thomas that were equally as bad in the ALCS. The A's ran into a better team.

RKMeibalane
10-15-2006, 03:53 PM
I love Frank, but those 18 walks do not help the team as much as some extra base hits and homers. They help the team, but his lack of power in the postseason (excluding the ALDS this year) should be mentioned.

He has three home runs in 46 at-bats, which comes out to one every 15.3 at-bats. Not great, but not bad, either. In fact, prior to the steroids era, it was considered a good ratio.

goon
10-15-2006, 06:49 PM
I think we have a ton of fans who started watching Frank after 2000 and don't know the Frank that RKM, Voo, etc. really do love. I understand why they do. I'm not so sentimental with him for a number of reasons, but this is/was one of the 2 or 3 best hitters in the game for a full decade.

very true, though there are a lot of people who were fans of the white sox LONG before frank ever came along and they don't feel the same kind of attachment for the guy. i started watching baseball around 7 or 8 and my parents took me to a lot of games when the new comiskey opened up, so i can definitely understand why people worship the guy.

frank brings a lot of negative attention on himself. i love the guy as a player and i know he isn't the villian the chicago media would like us to believe, but he can be a big time prick. if you can't see that or just refuse to acknowledge it, don't get pissy because other people do.

i'm not referring to you man, just agitators on both sides of the fence.

fquaye149
10-15-2006, 08:11 PM
very true, though there are a lot of people who were fans of the white sox LONG before frank ever came along and they don't feel the same kind of attachment for the guy. i started watching baseball around 7 or 8 and my parents took me to a lot of games when the new comiskey opened up, so i can definitely understand why people worship the guy.

frank brings a lot of negative attention on himself. i love the guy as a player and i know he isn't the villian the chicago media would like us to believe, but he can be a big time prick. if you can't see that or just refuse to acknowledge it, don't get pissy because other people do.

i'm not referring to you man, just agitators on both sides of the fence.

Frank doesn't bring attention on himself. He gets goaded by dickweeds like Mariotti into saying things that get taken out of context. He gets asked questions about quotes from his teammates that are taken out of context. And so on. Frank doesn't do situps in his front yard. He showed up late ONCE for camp and that was because he was hurt. He doesn't do Burger King or Nike commercials and he only had one video game made about him.

Frank Thomas is not TO or Keyshawn Johnson or any of these people who relish attention. People THREW the spotlight ON Frank b/c he was a phenomenal ballplayer. The reporters didn't like the copy he was giving them, so they spun everything against him.

That's the way I see it. If you think Frank really loves the attention, then I guess you and I see things differently.

oscars gamble
10-15-2006, 08:19 PM
Frank doesn't bring attention on himself. He gets goaded by dickweeds like Mariotti into saying things that get taken out of context. He gets asked questions about quotes from his teammates that are taken out of context. And so on. Frank doesn't do situps in his front yard. He showed up late ONCE for camp and that was because he was hurt. He doesn't do Burger King or Nike commercials and he only had one video game made about him.

Frank Thomas is not TO or Keyshawn Johnson or any of these people who relish attention. People THREW the spotlight ON Frank b/c he was a phenomenal ballplayer. The reporters didn't like the copy he was giving them, so they spun everything against him.

That's the way I see it. If you think Frank really loves the attention, then I guess you and I see things differently.

He did not show up late for camp because he was hurt it was because he was upset with his contract. That fact cannot be disputed. He admitted as much in the papers, oh yeah the press made that all up

fquaye149
10-15-2006, 08:29 PM
He did not show up late for camp because he was hurt it was because he was upset with his contract. That fact cannot be disputed. He admitted as much in the papers, oh yeah the press made that all up

He had a note from his mom...i mean doctor

TornLabrum
10-15-2006, 09:58 PM
Frank doesn't bring attention on himself. He gets goaded by dickweeds like Mariotti into saying things that get taken out of context. He gets asked questions about quotes from his teammates that are taken out of context. And so on. Frank doesn't do situps in his front yard. He showed up late ONCE for camp and that was because he was hurt. He doesn't do Burger King or Nike commercials and he only had one video game made about him.

Frank Thomas is not TO or Keyshawn Johnson or any of these people who relish attention. People THREW the spotlight ON Frank b/c he was a phenomenal ballplayer. The reporters didn't like the copy he was giving them, so they spun everything against him.

That's the way I see it. If you think Frank really loves the attention, then I guess you and I see things differently.

And here's where stories get completely screwed up. He didn't show up late for camp. He actually showed up early (during the time pitchers and catchers only were there, but other players were given the option of reporting. He left camp because of the salary dispute, but he returned on the day he was required to. End of story, except for the residual impression obviously given about what he did by the mediots.

TornLabrum
10-15-2006, 10:01 PM
He had a note from his mom...i mean doctor

That was an entirely different incident. That was after Frank was sent home early before the end of the previous season because Jerry Manuel, MD diagnosed him as faking having a sore ankle. That winter a bone spur the size of Delaware was removed from his ankle, and his surgeon sent a note stating that he was not to run some idiotic drill that head football coach Jerry Manuel decided his players needed to run that involved a lot of changing of direction that would put undue stress on Thomas's newly repaired ankle. As a result, he and Manuel got into a shouting match, but Thomas didn't run the drill.

dickallen15
10-15-2006, 10:34 PM
And here's where stories get completely screwed up. He didn't show up late for camp. He actually showed up early (during the time pitchers and catchers only were there, but other players were given the option of reporting. He left camp because of the salary dispute, but he returned on the day he was required to. End of story, except for the residual impression obviously given about what he did by the mediots.
He also had a press conference apologizing for causing a huge distraction, and then saying his 6 day walkout wasn't about money although right before he left he complained that ARod got $25 million a year and poor Frank had to live on $10 million, albeit some of that deferred. He complained in the press conference about the deferred money and the diminished skills clause I believe. What gives him the right to complain about a contract he signed? He was "fired' by his agents because of his actions. One of his agents was a former teammate, Scott Sanderson. How many times do you hear about prominent players such as Frank Thomas getting told to find new representation? Not very often I would imagine.

fquaye149
10-16-2006, 02:41 AM
That was an entirely different incident. That was after Frank was sent home early before the end of the previous season because Jerry Manuel, MD diagnosed him as faking having a sore ankle. That winter a bone spur the size of Delaware was removed from his ankle, and his surgeon sent a note stating that he was not to run some idiotic drill that head football coach Jerry Manuel decided his players needed to run that involved a lot of changing of direction that would put undue stress on Thomas's newly repaired ankle. As a result, he and Manuel got into a shouting match, but Thomas didn't run the drill.

Ugh. My bad. I admit my ignorance.

soxinem1
10-17-2006, 03:16 PM
Bull****. Show me a Frank complaint about being underpaid. All he's said is that the offer isn't where he'd like it to be. I suppose you think he should take whatever they offer and say "thank you for even offering me a contract"? As for being a "cancer", I'll take the word of pretty much everyone in Oakland that he's not only a model teammate but also a mentor to their young players. Something that was also said by younger teammates in Chicago, but never reported widely. Meanwhile, whereas no teammate said he was a cancer, Kenny Williams claimed it and it was parrotted unsupported across hte local papers.

The Frank-hatred and limbs on which people climb out onto to to try and slam him never ceases to amaze me.

Amen! How can any White Sox fan crow over an 0-10 by Frank? Great way to treat the best player in the team's history.

If there is one thing I am not pleased with KW about, it's his handling of the Frank Drama. Totally unwarranted and unnecessary. His handling of this mess just put gas on the fire.

voodoochile
10-17-2006, 03:54 PM
He also had a press conference apologizing for causing a huge distraction, and then saying his 6 day walkout wasn't about money although right before he left he complained that ARod got $25 million a year and poor Frank had to live on $10 million, albeit some of that deferred. He complained in the press conference about the deferred money and the diminished skills clause I believe. What gives him the right to complain about a contract he signed? He was "fired' by his agents because of his actions. One of his agents was a former teammate, Scott Sanderson. How many times do you hear about prominent players such as Frank Thomas getting told to find new representation? Not very often I would imagine.

Put it in context. The previous season ended with a steroid bulked up Giambi beating out Frank for MVP. That MVP would have been Frank's third and would have removed the DSC from his contract and guaranteed he get every penny he had orginially signed for. In addition, Frank was coming out of the divorce and was seriously hurting for cash - so much so that he took a loan from the Sox - something KW made light of when Frank left this past off season.

Turns out he was right, the Sox invoked the clause a few years later and cost Frank millions.

I don't get why people get so down on players who talk about their money. I mean we all know they get paid huge sums to play a game and entertain us. That pay scale isn't the same as it is in the "real world" and yes, things like respect and ego are tied up in the salaries they receive. At least in Frank's case he had a valid reason to be upset/concerned. Most of the guys don't have to worry about their bosses cutting their pay from $10M/year down to league minimum because JR was the only guy who ever put a DSC in a contract and KW was the only guy who ever invoked one.

jabrch
10-17-2006, 08:15 PM
Put it in context....Frank was coming out of the divorce and was seriously hurting for cash

While I agree with the rest of your post, you are going to have a VERY hard time drumming up a case for Mr. Thomas "seriously hurting for cash". None of know his finances well, but we all know enough to know that man could have walked into any bank and gotten more money than some of us will make in a lifetime without doing more than signing his name. He could made most of our annual salaries just as an appearance fee. He could have made our lifetime earnings by signing a new endorsement deal.

No VC - I won't cry for Franks cash problems. Not in light of the world we live in.

RKMeibalane
10-17-2006, 08:32 PM
No VC - I won't cry for Franks cash problems. Not in light of the world we live in.

I agree. The DSC was a bogus clause to put in any contract, but it's important to remember that Frank signed the contract, even when Reinsdorf himself told Thomas to think about it before he did.

To be clear, I do agree with VC that Frank was unfairly painted into a corner by Giambi's cheating, as it's clear that he wouldn't have won the MVP without the 'roids. However, had Frank not signed the contract in the first place, he wouldn't have been in a position to lose so much money. It's unfortunate that it happened, because I don't think he deserved to lose money as a result of someone else's dishonesty, but it's clear that Frank didn't consider all of his options carefully before signing the deal in '97.

ondafarm
10-17-2006, 09:26 PM
I agree. The DSC was a bogus clause to put in any contract, but it's important to remember that Frank signed the contract, even when Reinsdorf himself told Thomas to think about it before he did.

To be clear, I do agree with VC that Frank was unfairly painted into a corner by Giambi's cheating, as it's clear that he wouldn't have won the MVP without the 'roids. However, had Frank not signed the contract in the first place, he wouldn't have been in a position to lose so much money. It's unfortunate that it happened, because I don't think he deserved to lose money as a result of someone else's dishonesty, but it's clear that Frank didn't consider all of his options carefully before signing the deal in '97.

If Reinsdorf had thought it was unfair, then he should have taken the DSC out. I wouldn't trust him on any contract whatsoever.

voodoochile
10-17-2006, 10:45 PM
While I agree with the rest of your post, you are going to have a VERY hard time drumming up a case for Mr. Thomas "seriously hurting for cash". None of know his finances well, but we all know enough to know that man could have walked into any bank and gotten more money than some of us will make in a lifetime without doing more than signing his name. He could made most of our annual salaries just as an appearance fee. He could have made our lifetime earnings by signing a new endorsement deal.

No VC - I won't cry for Franks cash problems. Not in light of the world we live in.

I'm not asking you or anyone to cry, but I think compassion is something we can have for anyone going through a rough time even if their idea of a rough time is far from what we consider rough.

Each person's viewpoint is subjective. Frank got screwed by a bloated cheat out of millions of dollars and he was rightfully ticked about it 5 months later. How would you feel if you ended up getting screwed out of several years worth of salary by someone who turned out to be a liar and a cheat and your boss did nothing but sit on his hands or actively run you down to the press? Frank not only got no support from the team he had played for all of those years, but he regularly got hammered by people like Manuel. Then he thinks he's got it, the respect he wants, the security he needs and a chance to end his career with the team he had played for all along... blammo... there comes Giambi and his needle... there goes Frank...

fquaye149
10-18-2006, 01:15 AM
Amen! How can any White Sox fan crow over an 0-10 by Frank? Great way to treat the best player in the team's history.

If there is one thing I am not pleased with KW about, it's his handling of the Frank Drama. Totally unwarranted and unnecessary. His handling of this mess just put gas on the fire.

Is that like Johnny Drama?

fquaye149
10-18-2006, 01:17 AM
I'm not asking you or anyone to cry, but I think compassion is something we can have for anyone going through a rough time even if their idea of a rough time is far from what we consider rough.

Each person's viewpoint is subjective. Frank got screwed by a bloated cheat out of millions of dollars and he was rightfully ticked about it 5 months later. How would you feel if you ended up getting screwed out of several years worth of salary by someone who turned out to be a liar and a cheat and your boss did nothing but sit on his hands or actively run you down to the press? Frank not only got no support from the team he had played for all of those years, but he regularly got hammered by people like Manuel. Then he thinks he's got it, the respect he wants, the security he needs and a chance to end his career with the team he had played for all along... blammo... there comes Giambi and his needle... there goes Frank...

The worst was Giambi on Rome and Dan Patrick. Between that and the ****ing steroids Mr. "I play the field ****tily so I'm more valuable than the best hitter of the 90's" had a completely unfair advantage. 3 MVP's=1st ballot HOF no matter what the douchebag Chicago media says. 2 MVP's=*******s like Mariotti might be able to convince the Tribune sheep that flock this site that Frank is not a first ballot HOFer

Steelrod
10-18-2006, 03:36 AM
If Reinsdorf had thought it was unfair, then he should have taken the DSC out. I wouldn't trust him on any contract whatsoever.
With all due respect, contract negotiating is give and take. This contract was renegotiated twice by Frank's people. Typically, when something is added to one side, the other side gets something also. We will never know what Frank got to have the DSC added, although I seem to remember that several years were added in addition to method of payout.

Flight #24
10-18-2006, 10:46 AM
Just for the record, this "clubhouse cancer" & bad guy Frank Thomas

- Never held out despite being cheated out of millions of dollars and having his boss go along with that
- Never missed games except with fairly serious injuries
- Never used performance enhancing drugs (or recreational drugs)
- Was almost always if not always very generous with fans
- Never interefered with other guys in the clubhouse (the worst that's been said is that he focused on his stats, not that he was demanding special assistants/chairs, playing music, etc.)

All of this, AND he was arguably the best hitter of the past 10-20 years and one of the best of all time.

But if he says "Hey, I don't think I'll accept the first offer" coming off of an MVP-caliber season and the team's announcement that they've made him a contract offer in the first place......fans who should be revering him as a player, jump on him.

:?: :(:

SBSoxFan
10-18-2006, 12:41 PM
If Reinsdorf had thought it was unfair, then he should have taken the DSC out. I wouldn't trust him on any contract whatsoever.

Didn't Jordan have a DSC too?

thegooch
10-18-2006, 12:49 PM
Just for the record, this "clubhouse cancer" & bad guy Frank Thomas

- Never held out despite being cheated out of millions of dollars and having his boss go along with that
- Never missed games except with fairly serious injuries
- Never used performance enhancing drugs (or recreational drugs)
- Was almost always if not always very generous with fans
- Never interefered with other guys in the clubhouse (the worst that's been said is that he focused on his stats, not that he was demanding special assistants/chairs, playing music, etc.)

All of this, AND he was arguably the best hitter of the past 10-20 years and one of the best of all time.

But if he says "Hey, I don't think I'll accept the first offer" coming off of an MVP-caliber season and the team's announcement that they've made him a contract offer in the first place......fans who should be revering him as a player, jump on him.

:?: :(:

how was he "cheated" out of millions of dollars? Thats a crock.

and he never missed games? What about this episode?

The extent to which Thomas is embarrassed by his weak swings against Wetteland becomes clear a few hours later that day, when White Sox manager Jerry Manuel calls on him to pinch hit again in the second game of the doubleheader. This time, Chicago is down 6-3 in the sixth inning but has the bases loaded with two outs. Texas brings in Mike Munoz, a journeyman lefthander, the kind of pitcher God created to get Thomas into the Hall of Fame.
But Thomas says no.
In fact, when Manuel sends word that he wants his 6-5 slugger to face Munoz, Thomas already is in the clubhouse in flip-flops and a T-shirt. After the game, Manuel, fed up with Thomas' refusal to hit and his unwillingness to play first base, sends him back to Chicago while the team continues its road trip.


What was that all about? Him being a team player?

Flight #24
10-18-2006, 12:59 PM
how was he "cheated" out of millions of dollars? Thats a crock. Well, He lost the MVP to a guy who's admitted to taking steroids during that period. Not sure how much more blatant cheating can get. And that had a direct result of providing the Sox the ability to exercise the DSC, i.e. costing him millions of dollars. So to summarize: Frank performs at the level required. Doesn't get the official award because he's cheated out of it. Loses millions of dollars.



and he never missed games? What about this episode?

The extent to which Thomas is embarrassed by his weak swings against Wetteland becomes clear a few hours later that day, when White Sox manager Jerry Manuel calls on him to pinch hit again in the second game of the doubleheader. This time, Chicago is down 6-3 in the sixth inning but has the bases loaded with two outs. Texas brings in Mike Munoz, a journeyman lefthander, the kind of pitcher God created to get Thomas into the Hall of Fame.
But Thomas says no.
In fact, when Manuel sends word that he wants his 6-5 slugger to face Munoz, Thomas already is in the clubhouse in flip-flops and a T-shirt. After the game, Manuel, fed up with Thomas' refusal to hit and his unwillingness to play first base, sends him back to Chicago while the team continues its road trip.


What was that all about? Him being a team player?

You'll have to refresh my memory as to what year that was, because I have a feeling it was during the ankle spur year. Even if not, you're talking 1 game in which he missed a PH AB over his career with the Sox. Heck - even if it was 10 games, that's like 1/yr. My point was that this wasn't a guy who sat out unless he had a major injury. He was frequently slammed when he did sit out, and each time - the injury was shown to be severe.

SBSoxFan
10-18-2006, 01:10 PM
Well, He lost the MVP to a guy who's admitted to taking steroids during that period. Not sure how much more blatant cheating can get. And that had a direct result of providing the Sox the ability to exercise the DSC, i.e. costing him millions of dollars. So to summarize: Frank performs at the level required. Doesn't get the official award because he's cheated out of it. Loses millions of dollars.

He wasn't cheated by the Sox though. I guess you could argue that the Sox should have acknowledged the fact that Giambi cheated and remove the clause, but I'm not sure you could figure any corporation to act in that way.

Maybe Frank should've sued Giambi?!

Flight #24
10-18-2006, 01:35 PM
He wasn't cheated by the Sox though. I guess you could argue that the Sox should have acknowledged the fact that Giambi cheated and remove the clause, but I'm not sure you could figure any corporation to act in that way.

Maybe Frank should've sued Giambi?!

No, I'm talking about from Frank's point-of-view, he went out and put up the #s he was expected to. And he'd been a loyal soldier to the Sox through that point. So he could have expected the Sox to say "We're not going to exercise it because you're our franchise player and you put up franchise player #s but because of a freak incident didn't get the actual award". Instead, they said "don't let the door hit you on the way out".

So what did he do? He expressed his discontent with that. But he still reported to camp on time, i.e. no holdout.

RKMeibalane
10-18-2006, 01:53 PM
You'll have to refresh my memory as to what year that was, because I have a feeling it was during the ankle spur year. Even if not, you're talking 1 game in which he missed a PH AB over his career with the Sox. Heck - even if it was 10 games, that's like 1/yr. My point was that this wasn't a guy who sat out unless he had a major injury. He was frequently slammed when he did sit out, and each time - the injury was shown to be severe.

It was after he suffered the bone-spur injury. The actual incident took place September 13, 1999, against the Rangers. Thomas was sent home the following day: Manuel and Jumbo-Tron Ron accused him of "quitting the team" later that same week.

TornLabrum
10-18-2006, 08:05 PM
It was after he suffered the bone-spur injury. The actual incident took place September 13, 1999, against the Rangers. Thomas was sent home the following day: Manuel and Jumbo-Tron Ron accused him of "quitting the team" later that same week.

And that shows the extent to which the Thomas bashers will go. Quote an article that knocks Thomas that turns out to be Dr. Manuel and Dr. Schueler diagnosing Thomas's ankle injury and sending him home as a quitter when he had a bone spur the size of a walnut.

Have they at long last no shame?