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Thome25
10-06-2006, 07:56 AM
I don't think we would deal with Boston unless it was a minor deal. You don't help a potential playoff foe by trading them one of our starters.

Could you imagine if the pitcher we traded to Boston came back and haunted us in the playoffs? NOT a good idea.

A. Cavatica
10-06-2006, 08:43 AM
I don't think we would deal with Boston unless it was a minor deal. You don't help a potential playoff foe by trading them one of our starters.

Could you imagine if the pitcher we traded to Boston came back and haunted us in the playoffs? NOT a good idea.

Could you imagine if we missed the playoffs? :o:

Kenny will deal with whoever gives him the best deal.

Thome25
10-11-2006, 08:09 AM
Well there are only two conceivable spots Melky can play LF and CF. Both Matsui and Damon are locked up till 09. Melky isn't going to lead off since they got Damon and he would need better production to warrant playing a corner OF spot with out leading off.

Here is Melky's scouting report from 2004. (http://story.scout.com/a.z?s=228&p=2&c=223111) He is defiantly fast enough to lead off and he will get better at stealing bags 12SB/5CS. Like i said he is only 22 he has a bright future provided he gets the ABs and isn't used as a 4th OFer. He sprays the ball to all fields, and walks nearly as much as he strikes out and hes a switch hitter, plus he hits LHP 10 points higher than RHP which is huge in the Central division. In his rookie year he posted a OBP better than our own lead off hitter and the flavor of the week Juan Pierre(who was in the weak NL).

Also Matsui does more than just produce on the field he gets alot of ad revenue for the yankees in Japan where he was once called "godzilla". Letting Melky ride the bench is a waste of his talent especially when you consider how Matsui has an "iron man" work ethic and outside of this year had never missed a game, same goes for damon he played in 149 games this year even after having a broken bone in his foot. That isn't enough ABs and it would be a waste of talent and value to use him as a 4th OFer or send him back down to AAA(when he is clearly ML ready) the yankees could get pieces they need to contend by dealing him this offseason.

If we can deal Garcia to the Yankees that frees up payroll, opens up a spot for McCarthy, and gives us our lead off hitter/LF for the future in Melky whos defense is sterling and it also gives us some BP help in Cox/Proctor. An outfield of Cabrera/Anderson/Sweeney is incredibly young, talented and defensively sound. it makes me :drool:

I still stand by what i think he will put up next year.

285+avg/.365OBP 400SLG, 15-20SB/6CS 12-15HR

This is what he put up in '06.

.280avg/.360OBP/.391SLG 12SB/5CS 7HR

what do you guys think as far as if its possible and projection wise?

Help a potential playoff opponent get stronger while giving them a player who could come back to haunt us in Garcia?

I don't think so.

Beautox
10-11-2006, 08:22 AM
Help a potential playoff opponent get stronger while giving them a player who could come back to haunt us in Garcia?

I don't think so.

Last time i checked, we're not in the same division and if we meet in the post season then may the best team win. We need a lead off hitter and to shed some $ and open a spot for McCarthy and Garcia has one year left on his contract how is that going to haunt us?

Thome25
10-11-2006, 08:35 AM
Last time i checked, we're not in the same division and if we meet in the post season then may the best team win. We need a lead off hitter and to shed some $ and open a spot for McCarthy and Garcia has one year left on his contract how is that going to haunt us?

Garcia could come back to haunt us by:

A.) Helping the Yankees get to the playoffs

B.) Pitching well against US.

C.) Helping the Yankees beat us in the playoffs by pitching well against us.

looking at all three of those scenarios I'd have to say NO THANK YOU!!!

Beautox
10-11-2006, 09:36 AM
Garcia could come back to haunt us by:

A.) Helping the Yankees get to the playoffs

B.) Pitching well against US.

C.) Helping the Yankees beat us in the playoffs by pitching well against us.

looking at all three of those scenarios I'd have to say NO THANK YOU!!!

Going by your Theory we should not make a deal with any of the other 29 teams in baseball, because "that might come back to haunt us" in the post season provided you make it there. If we went by that line of thinking we would've never dealt Loaiza to the yankees for Jose, even though that seems to have worked out pretty well for us.

Thome25
10-11-2006, 09:43 AM
Going by your Theory we should not make a deal with any of the other 29 teams in baseball, because "that might come back to haunt us" in the post season provided you make it there. If we went by that line of thinking we would've never dealt Loaiza to the yankees for Jose, even though that seems to have worked out pretty well for us.

Loaiza wasn't the caliber of pitcher Garcia is. And no that's just ridiculous for you to say that.

You don't trade with perennial playoff contenders in your own league. I.E. Yankees, Red Sox etc. unless it's a minor deal like the Riske trade.

Perennial playoff teams like the Yankees sign players, or trade with teams that are not going to be in playoff contention.

It's the same problem KW said he had with trying to make trades last season and at the trade deadline. Not many teams wanted to help him out by trading players to the World Champs.

Beautox
10-11-2006, 09:47 AM
Loaiza wasn't the caliber of pitcher Garcia is. And no that's just ridiculous for you to say that.

You don't trade with perennial playoff contenders in your own league. I.E. Yankees, Red Sox etc. unless it's a minor deal like the Riske trade.

Perennial playoff teams like the Yankees sign players, or trade with teams that are not going to be in playoff contention.

It's the same problem KW said he had with trying to make trades last season and at the trade deadline. Not many teams wanted to help him out by trading players to the World Champs.

:rolleyes:

You always make the move that will make your club better, its as simple as that. McCarthy into the rotation is better for the white sox seeing how his floor is a #3 and his ceiling is an ace. a SP needs to go and if we can get BP help and a LF/Leadoff man you do it. Melky to the white sox makes us younger, cheaper and better defensively.

Thome25
10-11-2006, 09:57 AM
:rolleyes:

You always make the move that will make your club better, its as simple as that. McCarthy into the rotation is better for the white sox seeing how his floor is a #3 and his ceiling is an ace. a SP needs to go and if we can get BP help and a LF/Leadoff man you do it. Melky to the white sox makes us younger, cheaper and better defensively.

How many times do I have to point it out to you? IT'S NOT GOING TO HAPPEN. Not with the Yankees.

McCarthy's Ceiling is an ace, I'll have to agree with you on that one. But his floor is all the way down to possibly being Kip Wells, Josh Fogg, Lorenzo Barcelo, Jim Parque, or Pat Daneker.

Beautox
10-11-2006, 10:10 AM
How many times do I have to point it out to you? IT'S NOT GOING TO HAPPEN. Not with the Yankees.

McCarthy's Ceiling is an ace, I'll have to agree with you on that one. But his floor is all the way down to possibly being Kip Wells, Josh Fogg, Lorenzo Barcelo, Jim Parque, or Pat Daneker.

Your right, we've never dealt with the yankees, and Brian Cashman is stupid enough to let a talented 22yr old rot on the bench and not get enough ABs seeing how Matsui never misses a game and Damon played in 143 with a broken bone in his foot and Abreu played in 156 games this year, also add to the fact that they will once again be re signing Bernie Williams as a fourth OFer and they have Aaron Guiel, but yet they're some how going to find 400 ABs to keep the kid sharp at the ML level or they can deal him for pitching and BP help.

Thome25
10-11-2006, 10:15 AM
Your right, we've never dealt with the yankees, and Brian Cashman is stupid enough to let a talented 22yr old rot on the bench and not get enough ABs seeing how Matsui never misses a game and Damon played in 143 with a broken bone in his foot and Abreu played in 156 games this year, also add to the fact that they will once again be re signing Bernie Williams as a fourth OFer and they have Aaron Guiel, but yet they're some how going to find 400 ABs to keep the kid sharp at the ML level or they can deal him for pitching and BP help.

The Yankees want to get younger and less expensive on the pitching staff and in the lineup.

Damon or Matsui are more likely to get traded than Cabrera.

And I honestly don't think the White Sox and Yankees would make a blockbuster deal together.

Do the Red Sox and Yankees make trades together? How about the A's and Yankees or the Angels and Yankees? If you're a WS contender you DO NOT make blockbuster trades with a perennial playoff team and potential playoff foe.

Paulwny
10-11-2006, 10:30 AM
The Yankees want to get younger and less expensive on the pitching staff and in the lineup.

Damon or Matsui are more likely to get traded than Cabrera.

And I honestly don't think the White Sox and Yankees would make a blockbuster deal together.

Do the Red Sox and Yankees make trades together? How about the A's and Yankees or the Angels and Yankees? If you're a WS contender you DO NOT make blockbuster trades with a perennial playoff team and potential playoff foe.

I agree that NY will want young harder not necessarily cheaper throwing pitchers.
Disagree about Cabrera, NY is still old school, lf and rf are for power hitters. The yanks will shop Cabrera this off season.

Palehose13
10-11-2006, 10:42 AM
The Yankees want to get younger and less expensive on the pitching staff and in the lineup.

Damon or Matsui are more likely to get traded than Cabrera.

And I honestly don't think the White Sox and Yankees would make a blockbuster deal together.

Do the Red Sox and Yankees make trades together? How about the A's and Yankees or the Angels and Yankees? If you're a WS contender you DO NOT make blockbuster trades with a perennial playoff team and potential playoff foe.

How do you know that the Yankees want to go cheaper? I've never seen any indication of that. They may be just the perfect team to take one of our established pitchers so that we can keep McCarthy (since everyone tells me he's the second coming of Blackbeard).

They Yankees would rather trade Damon or Matsui? Where are you getting your info? For all of the other teams in baseball I would believe this, but not the Yankees.

The Sox and Yankees just made a trade a few years ago: Loaiza for Contreras. The Yankees also helped us get David Wells in 2001. There isn't a strong history of the Sox and Yankees as trading partners, but there is a history.

Thome25
10-11-2006, 10:49 AM
How do you know that the Yankees want to go cheaper? I've never seen any indication of that. They may be just the perfect team to take one of our established pitchers so that we can keep McCarthy (since everyone tells me he's the second coming of Blackbeard).

They Yankees would rather trade Damon or Matsui? Where are you getting your info? For all of the other teams in baseball I would believe this, but not the Yankees.

The Sox and Yankees just made a trade a few years ago: Loaiza for Contreras. The Yankees also helped us get David Wells in 2001. There isn't a strong history of the Sox and Yankees as trading partners, but there is a history.

Well, considering the fact that a $200MM payroll got them absolutely nowhere the last 6 years I'd have to believe that the Yankees will try to get cheaper and get more value for their money.

I mean that's the way teams are winning these days.

As far as the Yankees and Sox as trading partners, The Sox were a middle-of the-road team both times NOT a legitimate WS contender. Two teams who are STRONG WS contenders do not make blockbuster trades together.

As far as trading Damon and Matsui goes, that's just personal opinion. I think they'll try to keep a young, hungry plyer like Cabrera and try to play him and then deal a Damon or Matsui.

Cabrera is a big reason they were winning in 2006. They'll probably find some way to play him.

samram
10-11-2006, 10:50 AM
How do you know that the Yankees want to go cheaper? I've never seen any indication of that. They may be just the perfect team to take one of our established pitchers so that we can keep McCarthy (since everyone tells me he's the second coming of Blackbeard).

They Yankees would rather trade Damon or Matsui? Where are you getting your info? For all of the other teams in baseball I would believe this, but not the Yankees.

The Sox and Yankees just made a trade a few years ago: Loaiza for Contreras. The Yankees also helped us get David Wells in 2001. There isn't a strong history of the Sox and Yankees as trading partners, but there is a history.

They also helped the Sox get Colon in 2003.

Palehose13
10-11-2006, 10:53 AM
They also helped the Sox get Colon in 2003.

Thank you. I had a feeling that I was missing someone. I guess I am trying to erase Bart on the Sox from my memory.

Thome25
10-11-2006, 10:53 AM
They also helped the Sox get Colon in 2003.

Both of those deals were to stop the Red Sox from getting Colon and Wells.

Palehose13
10-11-2006, 10:56 AM
Both of those deals were to stop the Red Sox from getting Colon and Wells.

Yes, but why the White Sox? If you remember 2001 was "It's time" and the Sox were expected to make a big push in the playoffs while the Yankees were just coming off of a WS championship. Before the start of the 2001 season it looked like the White Sox would have been more of a threat to the Yankees than the Red Sox.

Thome25
10-11-2006, 11:01 AM
Yes, but why the White Sox? If you remember 2001 was "It's time" and the Sox were expected to make a big push in the playoffs while the Yankees were just coming off of a WS championship. Before the start of the 2001 season it looked like the White Sox would have been more of a threat to the Yankees than the Red Sox.

Because like I said, The White Sox were a middle-of-the-road playoff contender NOT a legitimate WS contender those years.

Is a team honestly going to help another team get stronger knowing full well that they might have to face said team in the playoffs?

The Yankees didn't see the White Sox as a threat in 2001 and 2003.

Will the White Sox be a legitimate threat in 2007? Probably. Will the Yankees knowingly and honestly help them get stronger? Probably not.

KW probably sees the same thing about the Yankees. They will be a serious threat in 2007 (as with every year.) Will KW help them get stronger knowing he might have to face them in the playoffs? Probably not.

Palehose13
10-11-2006, 11:07 AM
Because like I said, The White Sox were a middle-of-the-road playoff contender NOT a legitimate WS contender those years.

Is a team honestly going to help another team get stronger knowing full well that they might have to face said team in the playoffs?

The Yankees didn't see the White Sox as a threat in 2001 and 2003.

Will the White Sox be a legitimate threat in 2007? Probably. Will the Yankees knowingly and honestly help them get stronger? Probably not.

KW probably sees the same thing about the Yankees. They will be a serious threat in 2007 (as with every year.) Will KW help them get stronger knowing he might have to face them in the playoffs? Probably not.

I really love how you just make up stuff and throw out assumptions with no basis, The Sox in 2000 had the best record in baseball and were picked by many media outlets to go to the World Series because they picked up the final piece of the puzzle, David Wells. It seems asinine now 'cause hindsight is 20/20, but a lot of people were hyped about the Sox in 2001 (pre-season) and it wasn't just in Chicago.

IMO, the Yankees will do anything they can to put the best possible team that they think they can assemble on the field. KW will do the same. Hell, the Yankees may see the Sox as non-threatening at all because of their third place finish.

I just don't buy your logic. You can't always trade with non-contenders because they are non-contenders for a reason (lack of good players).

Paulwny
10-11-2006, 11:16 AM
NY and Boston don't trade with each other because their in the same division. This is a big difference, not making a trade because you MIGHT face this team in the play-offs doesn't make sense. If you improve your team, make the trade.

Thome25
10-11-2006, 11:17 AM
I really love how you just make up stuff and throw out assumptions with no basis, The Sox in 2000 had the best record in baseball and were picked by many media outlets to go to the World Series because they picked up the final piece of the puzzle, David Wells. It seems asinine now 'cause hindsight is 20/20, but a lot of people were hyped about the Sox in 2001 (pre-season) and it wasn't just in Chicago.

IMO, the Yankees will do anything they can to put the best possible team that they think they can assemble on the field. KW will do the same. Hell, the Yankees may see the Sox as non-threatening at all because of their third place finish.

I just don't buy your logic. You can't always trade with non-contenders because they are non-contenders for a reason (lack of good players).

C'mon now. the White Sox in 2001 and 2003 were just like the Mets this year.

Heavy hitting and hardly any pitching. The only reason the Mets are still in it is because the NL is so weak someone had to go.

Media hype about a team means nothing. Hell if the media says something the opposite probably will happen in the MLB playoff race.

Look at the last few teams they picked to win it all. The 2005 Yankees, The 2006 White Sox, The 2006 Yankees, and The 2006 Twins.

What happened to those teams? Look up and down the roster of the 2001 and 2003 White Sox teams and knowing what it takes to win a WS, do you honestly think those teams had enough to win it all? Probably not.

I'm not making stuff up without any basis. When was the last time two teams in the same league who were LEGITIMATE WS contenders make a blockbuster, multi-player trade together?

Oh yeah, that's right the Rangers were legitimate contenders when they traded AROD to NY. They were a bad team that had players to trade.

Remember all the trades between WS contenders Oakland and the Yankees?
How about the Indians and Yankees? The Angels and Yankees? The Twins and the Yankees? Oh you don't? BECAUSE THEY DIDN'T HAPPEN.

When both teams in the same league have a legit shot at making it to the World Series they are not and WILL NOT be trading partners. Except for a minor deal like the Riske trade with Boston.

Thome25
10-11-2006, 11:22 AM
Might as well just roadhouse this thread

Flight #24
10-11-2006, 11:24 AM
Garcia could come back to haunt us by:

A.) Helping the Yankees get to the playoffs

B.) Pitching well against US.

C.) Helping the Yankees beat us in the playoffs by pitching well against us.

looking at all three of those scenarios I'd have to say NO THANK YOU!!!

Insert ARod for Garcia and hitting for pitching and you have the same scenario. Which is why the Sox would make a move that makes them better even if it improves a competitor.

Palehose13
10-11-2006, 11:27 AM
Once again you are throwing words around and defining them to fit your reasoning. Who really knows who is a legitimate world series contender? All I know that at the start of 2001 the Sox were considered a hell of a lot more legitimate than the Diamondbacks. How about the Tigers this year, were they considered legitimate? You just never know what team is going to emerge any given year. I have to agree with Beautox that with your theory we wouldn't trade with anyone for fear of making them better.

I get the whole "not trading in your division", but am not getting you at all. Maybe the fact that you think Crede is on the same level as ARod is tainting my view.

Palehose13
10-11-2006, 11:29 AM
Might as well just roadhouse this thread

I think splitting it was good enough. IMO, nothing in here to roadhouse. Are you applying for a moderating job?

chaerulez
10-11-2006, 12:17 PM
Maybe it's not wise to trade with the Twins or Tigers at the moment. Or even Cleveland, but I don't certainly see a problem dealing with the Yankees. They aren't in our division and well, any worries about facing them in the postseason requires us to be in the postseason first.

Jaffar
10-11-2006, 12:42 PM
Hopefully KW never refuses to resign a player and let's him walk even if he wants to stay for fear that he might come back and play well against us....ah crap! Wasn't sure if the teal was necessary.

spiffie
10-11-2006, 01:29 PM
Hopefully KW never refuses to resign a player and let's him walk even if he wants to stay for fear that he might come back and play well against us....ah crap! Wasn't sure if the teal was necessary.
The only solution is that any time we want to get rid of a player Kenny has to give him two choices:
1. Retire peacefully
2. Retire after a roundhouse kick. And by retire, he means die. And by die, he means have every molecule in your body explode simultaneously.

itsnotrequired
10-11-2006, 01:37 PM
I think splitting it was good enough. IMO, nothing in here to roadhouse. Are you applying for a moderating job?

Thome25 is quickly becoming one of my favorite posters.

Hangar18
10-11-2006, 01:50 PM
I'm not making stuff up without any basis. When was the last time two teams in the same league who were LEGITIMATE WS contenders make a blockbuster, multi-player trade together?

Oh yeah, that's right the Rangers were legitimate contenders when they traded AROD to NY. They were a bad team that had players to trade.

Remember all the trades between WS contenders Oakland and the Yankees?
How about the Indians and Yankees? The Angels and Yankees? The Twins and the Yankees? Oh you don't? BECAUSE THEY DIDN'T HAPPEN.

When both teams in the same league have a legit shot at making it to the World Series they are not and WILL NOT be trading partners. Except for a minor deal like the Riske trade with Boston.


Hmmmm, interesting theory there

Baby Fisk
10-11-2006, 01:58 PM
2. Retire after a roundhouse kick. And by retire, he means die. And by die, he means have every molecule in your body explode simultaneously.
Not many people know it, but that's what happened to James Baldwin.

:JB
"My ass never hauled ass like it did when it got the boot from Kenny."

samram
10-11-2006, 02:01 PM
Not many people know it, but that's what happened to James Baldwin.

:JB
"My ass never hauled ass like it did when it got the boot from Kenny."

Well, he came back, but he knew better than to be any good.

The Dude
10-11-2006, 02:20 PM
I find it pretty funny how basically only 3 posts by Palehose13, paul and samram were visible to me on that first page of this! Glad I'm not reading this stimulating thread!:tongue:

fquaye149
10-11-2006, 02:52 PM
Might as well just roadhouse this thread

Well that's where threads where someone is spewing **** go.

Look at how well playing "keep away" has worked out for the Yankees and Red Sox? Playing the defense game has kept the Yankees out of the WS since 2003 and without a title since 2000. This with a 200 million payroll. The Red Sox, 2004 notwithstanding, have likewise been not so successful as their payroll should indicate.

This is because they are overly concerned with not helping their rivals and less concerned with getting the best players for their team.

Beautox
10-12-2006, 12:12 AM
Thome25 is quickly becoming one of my favorite posters.

agreed.

Thome25
10-12-2006, 08:21 AM
I think splitting it was good enough. IMO, nothing in here to roadhouse. Are you applying for a moderating job?

Sure. Where do I sign up?

itsnotrequired
10-12-2006, 08:23 AM
Sure. Where do I sign up?

:rolling:

Hangar18
10-12-2006, 08:29 AM
I find it pretty funny how basically only 3 posts by Palehose13, paul and samram were visible to me on that first page of this! Glad I'm not reading this stimulating thread!:tongue:


Can I have my 6 seconds back please ..........

fquaye149
10-12-2006, 08:36 AM
Can I have my 6 seconds back please ..........

Wow---this is how you know it's a bad thread!:redneck:redneck:redneck

Thome25
10-12-2006, 08:40 AM
I love this thread...It points out how if your views aren't in the mainstream and the same as everyone else's on here, you get singled out and treated like a moron.

Sorry but I'm NOT like the rest of the "sheep" (or lemmings if you prefer.) on here.

Serously though, I apologize if I offended anyone by getting a little rude in some of my posts.

itsnotrequired
10-12-2006, 08:50 AM
I love this thread...It points out how if your views aren't in the mainstream and the same as everyone else's on here, you get singled out and treated like a moron.

Sorry but I'm NOT like the rest of the "sheep" (or lemmings if you prefer.) on here.

Serously though, I apologize if I offended anyone by getting a little rude in some of my posts.

Thinking "outside the mainstream" is fine but you need to be prepared to backup your claims, thoughts, etc. IMHO, you haven't demonstrated that.

Hangar18
10-12-2006, 08:51 AM
Thinking "outside the mainstream" is fine but you need to be prepared to backup your claims, thoughts, etc. IMHO, you haven't demonstrated that.


What made me think was when was the last time the Yankees and RedSox made a trade? I cant remember ......

itsnotrequired
10-12-2006, 08:58 AM
What made me think was when was the last time the Yankees and RedSox made a trade? I cant remember ......

So what? That's not unusual at all and has nothing to do with being contenders. The MacDougal trade was the first trade with KC in what, 15 years? The Sox haven't made a trade with the Twins in 20 years.

Thome25
10-12-2006, 09:00 AM
Thinking "outside the mainstream" is fine but you need to be prepared to backup your claims, thoughts, etc. IMHO, you haven't demonstrated that.

Is it possible to have an opinion that doesn't require hard facts to back up your point?

My biggest mistake was not typing "IMO" in front of what I wrote.

Edit: We're not lawyers here debating a point and If we don't provide "evidence" to back up our claim someone is going to jail.

This is some good friendly baseball conversation and you're allowed to express your opinion without the last 10 years worth of statistics to back up your claim.

I wasn't trying to start some lame rumor or something to that effect. I just based my OPINION on the past track record of how I've seen trades being made.

itsnotrequired
10-12-2006, 09:08 AM
Is it possible to have an opinion that doesn't require hard facts to back up your point?

Sure it is. But when you type in ALL CAPS, bold and continue to stress a given point, it is as if you are passing it off as fact. You stated that you "aren't making claims without any basis" but then turn around and imply your points are "opinions that don't require hard facts". Which one is it?

Thome25
10-12-2006, 09:17 AM
Sure it is. But when you type in ALL CAPS, bold and continue to stress a given point, it is as if you are passing it off as fact. You stated that you "aren't making claims without any basis" but then turn around and imply your points are "opinions that don't require hard facts". Which one is it?

In your opinion there is no difference between the two quotes in bold. Which is fine. But to me, there is.

To me, "hard facts" would be posting all the trades between the White Sox and Yankees since 1959 from a source.

To be "having a basis" for my point was watching baseball for the last 20 years and honestly not remembering ever seeing two powerhouse WS contenders making a blockbuster multi-player trade.

Like I said if I would've just typed "IMO" in front of what I wrote. I wouldn't have gotten blasted.

jenn2080
10-12-2006, 09:19 AM
Is it possible to have an opinion that doesn't require hard facts to back up your point?

My biggest mistake was not typing "IMO" in front of what I wrote.

Edit: We're not lawyers here debating a point and If we don't provide "evidence" to back up our claim someone is going to jail.

This is some good friendly baseball conversation and you're allowed to express your opinion without the last 10 years worth of statistics to back up your claim.

I wasn't trying to start some lame rumor or something to that effect. I just based my OPINION on the past track record of how I've seen trades being made.


No it is not. If you know the facts might as well preach them.

jenn2080
10-12-2006, 09:20 AM
What made me think was when was the last time the Yankees and RedSox made a trade? I cant remember ......

The Yankees got Damon last year. I do not know what the Red Sox got in return.

jenn2080
10-12-2006, 09:22 AM
Wow---this is how you know it's a bad thread!:redneck:redneck:redneck

Can I have my 6 seconds back please ..........

This is proof that this thread is off the charts

samram
10-12-2006, 09:23 AM
The Yankees got Damon last year. I do not know what the Red Sox got in return.

He was a free agent.

Thome25
10-12-2006, 09:24 AM
Damn...can't we all just get along on here?

So alot of people didn't agree with what I was saying. They're entitled to that.

But at the same time, do I deserve to get blasted for formulating my own opinion?

I'll just have to watch what I type and save the keystrokes from now on.

Hangar18
10-12-2006, 09:25 AM
The Yankees got Damon last year. I do not know what the Red Sox got in return.


That was thru Free Agency, not a trade

Thome25
10-12-2006, 09:26 AM
No it is not. If you know the facts might as well preach them.

The Yankees got Damon last year. I do not know what the Red Sox got in return.

And you were preaching to me to know the facts before I type them?

itsnotrequired
10-12-2006, 09:29 AM
In your opinion there is no difference between the two quotes in bold. Which is fine. But to me, there is.

:?:

I point out that there is a difference and specifically ask which way you are heading. How did you reach the conclusion that I consider them the same?

Thome25
10-12-2006, 09:35 AM
:?:

I point out that there is a difference and specifically ask which way you are heading. How did you reach the conclusion that I consider them the same?

Sorry I misunderstood your post. The basis of my point was having watched baseball the last 20 years and I don't think I've ever seen two powerhouse WS contenders in the same league making a major trade with each other.

That's what I was trying to present. I wasn't using "hard facts" like posting all of the trades made between the Yankees and White Sox since 1959.

Sorry for the confusion.

I'm going to have to disappear from this site and bury my head in the sand somewhere after the fiasco in this thread.

jenn2080
10-12-2006, 09:42 AM
That was thru Free Agency, not a trade

Ok I didnt know that. But he did come from the Red Sox. :D:

Hangar18
10-12-2006, 09:45 AM
And you were preaching to me to know the facts before I type them?


she was 1/2 right, but I know where your going with this. There have been more RedSox becoming Yankees, and only because of FA

Thome25
10-12-2006, 09:45 AM
I don't want to fight with you guys. We're all Sox fans here (most of us anyway.)

If I'm coming off like I'm trying to start trouble, I'M NOT.

We all have something in common here. It's our undying love for the White Sox.

Therefore, for the most part we're all on the same page.

itsnotrequired
10-12-2006, 09:45 AM
Sorry I misunderstood your post. The basis of my point was having watched baseball the last 20 years and I don't think I've ever seen two powerhouse WS contenders in the same league making a major trade with each other.

That's what I was trying to present. I wasn't using "hard facts" like posting all of the trades made between the Yankees and White Sox since 1959.

Sorry for the confusion.

I'm going to have to disappear from this site and bury my head in the sand somewhere after the fiasco in this thread.

I guess the issue is more to do with defining what a WS contender is. I mean, many "experts" picked the Cubs to be contenders this year. Same deal with the Brewers. Sure, some teams are more or less no-brainers for contenders but it is still a crap shoot for the most part.

The thing I feel that everyone can agree on is that teams rarely trade within their own division, regardless of whether or not the teams are contenders.

Thome25
10-12-2006, 09:52 AM
I guess the issue is more to do with defining what a WS contender is. I mean, many "experts" picked the Cubs to be contenders this year. Same deal with the Brewers. Sure, some teams are more or less no-brainers for contenders but it is still a crap shoot for the most part.

The thing I feel that everyone can agree on is that teams rarely trade within their own division, regardless of whether or not the teams are contenders.

I know that other teams fly in outta nowhere to make themselves WS contenders.

The teams I was talking about are your typical powerhouse, perennial WS contenders who are in contention year in and year out.

When you have two teams in the same league who on paper, are obviously going to make a serious run at a title, when was the last time you saw two of those teams make a blockbuster, multi-player type of trade together?

Maybe this situation has never happened before because the AL has never been this strong before where it has as many teams that are such powerhouses. I'm not sure.

likeawarlord
10-12-2006, 01:44 PM
Garcia could come back to haunt us by:

A.) Helping the Yankees get to the playoffs

B.) Pitching well against US.

C.) Helping the Yankees beat us in the playoffs by pitching well against us.

looking at all three of those scenarios I'd have to say NO THANK YOU!!!

why trade with anyone, then? this is so stupid.

kittle42
10-12-2006, 03:17 PM
why trade with anyone, then? this is so stupid.

Oh, come on! Under Thome25's theory, the Sox could trade with any NL team that has zero % chance of making the playoffs AND is not facing the Sox in interleague play! That must leave, what, one or two teams! Make us a contender, Kenny!

:cool:

Chips
10-12-2006, 06:23 PM
Was the title of this thread changed at one point? :?:

Gregory Pratt
10-12-2006, 08:46 PM
I'm very hesittant about trading Freddy period, let alone to New York. I will say this much: they'd certainly be interested in him. Garcia's an Ace-type, and has been, and plus, he's dominated NY in the playoffs several times. NY Management likes men that can beat up on NY in the playoffs, so they pursue them. Damon and RJohnson come to mind, but there're plenty others.

CubsfansareDRUNK
10-12-2006, 09:00 PM
It's absolutely ridiculous to not make a trade that betters your team in fear of making the other one better too.
"Lets trade Freddy for some great talent"
"No, don't do it. What we give them in return might make them better"
"O rly?"
"Ya Rly"
"No Wai!"

Beautox
10-13-2006, 01:51 AM
It's absolutely ridiculous to not make a trade that betters your team in fear of making the other one better too.
"Lets trade Freddy for some great talent"
"No, don't do it. What we give them in return might make them better"
"O rly?"
"Ya Rly"
"No Wai!"


{o,o}
|)__)
-"-"-
O RLY?

Thome25
10-13-2006, 08:17 AM
Oh, come on! Under Thome25's theory, the Sox could trade with any NL team that has zero % chance of making the playoffs AND is not facing the Sox in interleague play! That must leave, what, one or two teams! Make us a contender, Kenny!

:cool:

It's absolutely ridiculous to not make a trade that betters your team in fear of making the other one better too.
"Lets trade Freddy for some great talent"
"No, don't do it. What we give them in return might make them better"
"O rly?"
"Ya Rly"
"No Wai!"

You're missing the point. I wasn't saying don't trade with ANYONE for fear of making them better.

I was saying it would be unwise to make a blockbuster trade with a powerhouse club in your own league like the Yankees.

itsnotrequired
10-13-2006, 08:24 AM
You're missing the point. I wasn't saying don't trade with ANYONE for fear of making them better.

I was saying it would be unwise to make a blockbuster trade with a powerhouse club in your own league like the Yankees.

But wouldn't the Yankees be thinking the same thing? Would they want to send some of their stars to another contending team? If it means bettering their team, then they would do it, regardless if it also betters the other team.

The point is to field the best possible team you can and not worry too much about how it affects the other team. Ideally, one tries to do this outside the division simply because those are the opponents that a team faces the most during the season. The coaches know the strength and weaknesses of the player they traded away...but the other team knows the strengths and weaknesses of the player that you just picked up.

When the Sox played the Royals after they picked up MacDougal, don't you think the Royal hitters had an advantage since the pitching coach had intimate knowledge of the opposing pitcher and could tell the hitting coach what to look for?

Thome25
10-13-2006, 08:49 AM
But wouldn't the Yankees be thinking the same thing? Would they want to send some of their stars to another contending team? If it means bettering their team, then they would do it, regardless if it also betters the other team.

The point is to field the best possible team you can and not worry too much about how it affects the other team. Ideally, one tries to do this outside the division simply because those are the opponents that a team faces the most during the season. The coaches know the strength and weaknesses of the player they traded away...but the other team knows the strengths and weaknesses of the player that you just picked up.

When the Sox played the Royals after they picked up MacDougal, don't you think the Royal hitters had an advantage since the pitching coach had intimate knowledge of the opposing pitcher and could tell the hitting coach what to look for?

What you're saying makes sense. I am by no means trying to predict what the Cashman and KW are really thinking.

It was just my personal opinion as far as trading with a league rival and perennial contender in the Yankees.

It was also just an observation as far as what I've seen in the past. I honestly don't remember ever seeing two GREAT teams in the same league making a blockbuster trade with each other.

I could be wrong though.

Thome25
10-13-2006, 08:53 AM
I guess the fact that I'm not on the AROD bandwagon is clouding my opinion on the issue.

I just see the $16-$20MM better spent elsewhere.

Why weaken ourselves by having to give up some of our own players to the Yankees when you can sign Soriano for the same amount of money (or less) and keep our young players and/or veterans too?

AuroraSoxFan
10-13-2006, 08:53 AM
Could this be beaten to death any worse? Give it up people. Would the Sox and Yankees/BoSox/OAK deal w/ each other if needed?? Sure. Are KW and the Boss/Theo/Beane on each other's speed dials?? I really doubt it. Contenders will deal with each other when they NEED to. But they prefer not to unless necessary. Nuff said already.

spiffie
10-13-2006, 10:25 AM
Could this be beaten to death any worse? Give it up people. Would the Sox and Yankees/BoSox/OAK deal w/ each other if needed?? Sure. Are KW and the Boss/Theo/Beane on each other's speed dials?? I really doubt it. Contenders will deal with each other when they NEED to. But they prefer not to unless necessary. Nuff said already.

6/15/06 Acquired RHP David Riske from the Boston Red Sox in exchange for LHP Javier Lopez;


7/31/04 Acquired RHP Jose Contreras and cash considerations from the New York Yankees for RHP Esteban Loaiza.

1/15/03 Armando Rios: Signed free agent outfielder Armando Rios to a one-year contract for the 2003 season. Acquired pitcher Bartolo Colon and infielder Jorge Nunoz from Montreal in exchange for pitchers Rocky Biddle and Orlando Hernandez, outfielder Jeff Liefer and cash considerations. Acquired pitcher Orlando Hernandez and cash considerations from the New York Yankees in exchange for pitcher Antonio Osuna and minor-league pitcher Delvis Lantigua.


7/31/02 Bob Howry: Traded RHP Bobby Howry to Boston in exchange for RHP Franklin Francisco and LHP Byeong An.
12/3/02 Acquired closer Billy Koch and two minor leaguers from Oakland in exchange for pitcher Keith Foulke, catcher Mark Johnson, minor league pitcher Joe Valentine and cash considerations.

Thome25
10-13-2006, 10:27 AM
6/15/06 Acquired RHP David Riske from the Boston Red Sox in exchange for LHP Javier Lopez;


7/31/04 Acquired RHP Jose Contreras and cash considerations from the New York Yankees for RHP Esteban Loaiza.

1/15/03 Armando Rios: Signed free agent outfielder Armando Rios to a one-year contract for the 2003 season. Acquired pitcher Bartolo Colon and infielder Jorge Nunoz from Montreal in exchange for pitchers Rocky Biddle and Orlando Hernandez, outfielder Jeff Liefer and cash considerations. Acquired pitcher Orlando Hernandez and cash considerations from the New York Yankees in exchange for pitcher Antonio Osuna and minor-league pitcher Delvis Lantigua.


7/31/02 Bob Howry: Traded RHP Bobby Howry to Boston in exchange for RHP Franklin Francisco and LHP Byeong An.
12/3/02 Acquired closer Billy Koch and two minor leaguers from Oakland in exchange for pitcher Keith Foulke, catcher Mark Johnson, minor league pitcher Joe Valentine and cash considerations.

None of these deals could be considered on the same level as a blockbuster, multi-player, AROD type of trade.

Palehose13
10-13-2006, 12:44 PM
Was the title of this thread changed at one point? :?:

Yes. I split it from another and gave it a name.